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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Pathwind Chiley for part two of

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<v Speaker 1>our series about the disappearance of Cindy's Song. Robin, do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to catch everyone up on what we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is a Halloween mystery involving a twenty one

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<v Speaker 2>year old exchange student named Cindy Song who was originally

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<v Speaker 2>from Korea. She went out partying on Halloween night, dressed

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<v Speaker 2>as a playboy bunny with pink ears and was hanging

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<v Speaker 2>out with some of her friends going to a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of clubs. Then around four am on the morning of

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<v Speaker 2>November first, her friend dropped her off at her apartment complex,

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<v Speaker 2>yet Cindy would somehow vanish without a trace. When they

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<v Speaker 2>checked inside her apartment, they found some of her items

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<v Speaker 2>from her Halloween costumes, so she did get inside at

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<v Speaker 2>some point, but there were no signs of struggle or

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<v Speaker 2>forced entry. So the theory which has been pushed forward

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<v Speaker 2>is that she may have stepped out to go to

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<v Speaker 2>an overnight market or something, but then just cross paths

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<v Speaker 2>with the wrong person who wound up abducting her. The

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<v Speaker 2>big lead in this case is when they would look

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<v Speaker 2>at a serial killer named Hugo Selenski. A couple of

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<v Speaker 2>years later, they found a bunch of human remains on

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<v Speaker 2>his property, located about a one hundred miles away from

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<v Speaker 2>State College. These victims had been murdered and incinerated and

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<v Speaker 2>the remains buried, and a former associate of Selenski's named

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<v Speaker 2>Paul Weakley would claim that Selenski and another accomplice named

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Kurkowski, had driven to State College and picked up

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<v Speaker 2>Cindy while she was walking the streets, kept her in

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<v Speaker 2>captivity for a little while at the residence, and sexually

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<v Speaker 2>assaulted her before she was murdered. But they could not

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<v Speaker 2>find any remains on the property that match Cindy. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course Michael Kurkowski, the person who allegedly assisted Selensky

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<v Speaker 2>with this crime, he was also one of the victims.

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<v Speaker 2>They found his remains on the property, so there's been

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<v Speaker 2>some doubt about the veracity of Paul Weekly's story. Selensky

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<v Speaker 2>has been sent to prison for a number of other murders,

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<v Speaker 2>but he has never admitted any involvement in Cindy's case,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's the big question here. Was she murdered by

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<v Speaker 2>Hugo Selenski or did she cross pass and be murdered

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<v Speaker 2>by someone else. But all we really know for certain

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<v Speaker 2>that is that here we are nearly twenty four years

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<v Speaker 2>later and she is still a missing person. So this

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<v Speaker 2>is one of those missing persons cases which offers nothing

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<v Speaker 2>but pure frustration for everyone involved. You can understand the

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<v Speaker 2>frustration on the part of the victim's family since the

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<v Speaker 2>investigation has made such little progress, but you can also

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<v Speaker 2>understand the frustration from the police because they have such

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<v Speaker 2>little evidence to work with. I know there was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of friction between Cindy's family and the police after

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<v Speaker 2>the Song's called a press conference to express their displeasure

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<v Speaker 2>with the investigation. The specific mention of the Alicia Koza

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<v Speaker 2>Keewitch case seemed to imply that Sidney's disappearance might have

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<v Speaker 2>been handled with more urgency if she had been white. Well. Sadly,

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<v Speaker 2>race can definitely be a serious issue when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to how missing person's investigations are handled, but I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure it applies in this particular case. As I'd say,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem was not so much police indifference but a

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<v Speaker 2>lack of solid leads. They had no witnesses, no physical evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>and no potential suspects, and Sidney just happened to go

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<v Speaker 2>missing during the early morning hours when most people would

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<v Speaker 2>have been asleep. I think the main reason Alicia Koza

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<v Speaker 2>Kiwich had so many FBI agents assigned to her case

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<v Speaker 2>is because she was a thirteen year old missing child

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<v Speaker 2>while Cindy was twenty one and legally an adult. And

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<v Speaker 2>since Alicia had gone missing after meeting someone online, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot more evidence to work with. I suppose

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest mistake in Sidney's investigation is when her family

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<v Speaker 2>was allowed inside her apartment and they decided to clean it,

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<v Speaker 2>destroying potential physical evidence before the police could perform a

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<v Speaker 2>more thorough search. It sounds like this whole situation was

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<v Speaker 2>due to a miscommunication, but I personally don't believe anything

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<v Speaker 2>happened inside the apartment, and I think that Cindy was

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<v Speaker 2>most likely abducted after she already left. If that's the case,

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<v Speaker 2>then cleaning the place wouldn't have made any difference. The

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<v Speaker 2>Ferguson Township Police Department believed that the Song family's dissatisfaction

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<v Speaker 2>was due largely to a quote unquote cultural gap between

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<v Speaker 2>how investigations are performed in the US and South Korea.

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<v Speaker 2>We've actually seen the opposite side of the coin in

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<v Speaker 2>cases where an American citizen has gone missing in a

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<v Speaker 2>foreign country and their family expressed frustration because the police

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<v Speaker 2>were handling the investigation in a different fashion than they're

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<v Speaker 2>used to. The fact of the matter is that it

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<v Speaker 2>must be a helpless feeling when your child goes missing

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<v Speaker 2>thousands of miles away from you. And I'm sure it

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<v Speaker 2>was daunting to travel to a country where you don't

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<v Speaker 2>even speak the language in order to help out with

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<v Speaker 2>the search effort.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know what, guys, I think that it's not

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<v Speaker 3>just a cultural gap where it needs to be an

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<v Speaker 3>international kind of gap. I think there is a natural

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<v Speaker 3>disconnect between law enforcement and families because there isn't a

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<v Speaker 3>structure in place where law enforcement can be the emotional

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<v Speaker 3>support and provide the information that families need when they're

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<v Speaker 3>working an active case. So when I would meet with families,

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<v Speaker 3>one of the things that I would do is I

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<v Speaker 3>would say, here's where the police are limited in giving

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<v Speaker 3>you what you need. Right they're working an active case,

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<v Speaker 3>even though it's a cold case. For many of the

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<v Speaker 3>families I worked with, it's active and so you don't

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily even want to be in a position where they

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<v Speaker 3>share information that you might later be discussing with someone

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<v Speaker 3>and actually harm the case accidentally. Right, that's a big

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<v Speaker 3>burden for families to hold. So a lot of times

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<v Speaker 3>law enforcement does keep the family at bay, even years later,

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<v Speaker 3>because the little information that they have. You don't want

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<v Speaker 3>the family to have that information and accidentally share it

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<v Speaker 3>with someone who is not necessarily the right party to

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<v Speaker 3>share it with. And then when you look at police officers,

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<v Speaker 3>I would work with them and say little things like

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<v Speaker 3>answering the phone, checking in with the family, trying to

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<v Speaker 3>have some more empathy and compassion, even though that's not

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<v Speaker 3>your quote job. Trying to add that layer of care

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<v Speaker 3>for family members who are actively engaged with you matters.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I think it's that just separation of someone

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<v Speaker 3>doing their job and truly oftentimes trying to do it

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<v Speaker 3>well and family saying well, if you can't find them,

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<v Speaker 3>if you can't help us, then you're failing us and

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<v Speaker 3>you're failing the victim. That's a natural kind of upset

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<v Speaker 3>that's going to occur between those two parties. So it's

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<v Speaker 3>so sad here it is hard not to make parallels

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<v Speaker 3>to cases that are close by geographically that meet similar

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<v Speaker 3>victim characteristics. But here I truly think those two cases

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<v Speaker 3>that they're comparing with Alicia and Cindy, you do have

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<v Speaker 3>more evidence in Alicia's case, and it's a underagediled that

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<v Speaker 3>they thought they might have more leads to follow. So

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<v Speaker 3>this whole case is tragic. Cindy was a young kid

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<v Speaker 3>going out to have fun, she got home, she made

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<v Speaker 3>it home safely, and she probably did what she did

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<v Speaker 3>many and many a knight's, which was want to go

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<v Speaker 3>get a snack or a drink, and then she ends

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<v Speaker 3>up never coming home. So a lot of burden and

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<v Speaker 3>heavy grief on the family. And I think the same

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<v Speaker 3>kind of grief exists for many law enforcement agents who

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to know where is Cindy, if she's still alive,

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<v Speaker 3>is she being hurt, how do we protect the community

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<v Speaker 3>from whoever took her? So just such such a sad case.

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<v Speaker 1>So ask question for you, you've worked sort of as

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<v Speaker 1>a bridge or a go between with law enforcement and families.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that it would have made a greater

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<v Speaker 1>impact or a difference if law enforcement had somebody to

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<v Speaker 1>facilitate that type of a position with the Song family

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<v Speaker 1>that spoke Korean.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh, yes, oh my gosh, yes, honestly needs

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<v Speaker 3>to be. There are a few victim advocates that are

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<v Speaker 3>provided to each law enforcement agency, but they're understaffed, they're

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<v Speaker 3>under resourced, and they honestly don't have the training for

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<v Speaker 3>a plethora of crimes. Right you have someone who's willing

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<v Speaker 3>to hold a victim's hand and help, but when you

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<v Speaker 3>only have two of them or one of them at

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<v Speaker 3>a law enforcement agency, you have several cases that need

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<v Speaker 3>someone to assist the family and police who are untrained

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<v Speaker 3>to do so. If there was that kind of bridge

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<v Speaker 3>person who could assist or even come in, especially with

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<v Speaker 3>language gaps, even racial gaps, all of those things where

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<v Speaker 3>culture does matter, and especially understanding the language of the

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<v Speaker 3>officers you're trying to communicate with as a family member

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<v Speaker 3>and vice versa for law enforcement, I think it would

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<v Speaker 3>have highly changed the dynamic. But again, unless they had

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<v Speaker 3>apprehended someone. In Cindy's case, I think in the back

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<v Speaker 3>of people's heads, if you can't tell me who did it,

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<v Speaker 3>then I'm going to blame you for failing to provide

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<v Speaker 3>that information to me, And so that blame that would

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<v Speaker 3>normally go to a suspect, it would normally that anger

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<v Speaker 3>and disappointment and frustration that would go towards the suspect

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<v Speaker 3>has to be funneled somewhere. So oftentimes it's law enforcement

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<v Speaker 3>for quote, failing to do their job when sometimes the

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<v Speaker 3>evidence just isn't there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we mentioned this on our last episode, but I

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<v Speaker 2>know that Cindy's brother became very frustrated because law enforcement

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<v Speaker 2>had to get a subpoena in order to search her

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<v Speaker 2>phone and internet records, and he was saying, well, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have to do this in Korea. What's the hold

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<v Speaker 2>up here? This is wasting valuable time. But it sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like someone really didn't take the time to sit down

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<v Speaker 2>and explain to him that law enforcement just works a

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<v Speaker 2>lot differently in the US than Korea and their procedures

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<v Speaker 2>to go through. But they just took it as wasting time,

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<v Speaker 2>thinking that going through all this bureaucracy and red tape

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<v Speaker 2>was preventing them from finding out what happened to her.

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<v Speaker 3>I think any family would feel that way. If you

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<v Speaker 3>told me right now you can go help me find

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<v Speaker 3>Reagan because there's red tape you've got to go through,

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<v Speaker 3>I'd be like, what the hell are you doing? No,

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<v Speaker 3>my daughter's missing. You get up now and find her phone,

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<v Speaker 3>get her records, get her bank account. We're doing that now,

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<v Speaker 3>and the officers would tell me the same thing. We

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<v Speaker 3>have to wait. I'd be heartsick, I'd be angry. I'd

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<v Speaker 3>be so infuriated that you're allowing her to be hurt

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<v Speaker 3>right now by somebody because of your quote red tape,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're not finding.

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<v Speaker 2>My baby for me.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's a very difficult situation, especially with a missing

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<v Speaker 3>person versus let's say, finding a deceased victim. Right when

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<v Speaker 3>there's the missing person, that urgency is there, that every

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<v Speaker 3>second counts is there, and maybe I can get my

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<v Speaker 3>arms back around my child.

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<v Speaker 2>Please help me.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyway. The only thing we know for certain about this

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<v Speaker 1>case is the chances of Cindy running away voluntarily or

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<v Speaker 1>completing suicide seem pretty much non existent. It was actually

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<v Speaker 1>Cindy's own family who pushed forward the theory that she

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<v Speaker 1>may have taken her own life because she was despondent

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<v Speaker 1>over her breakup with her boyfriend. But you have to

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<v Speaker 1>remember that they weren't living near her, and Cindy's friends,

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<v Speaker 1>who were around her all the time, insisted that she

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<v Speaker 1>had gotten over the breakup and was not feeling depressed

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<v Speaker 1>or suicidal. By all accounts, Cindy was in a great

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<v Speaker 1>mood on Hallowey night, and it seems unlikely that she

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<v Speaker 1>would spend the night partying with friends, go back inside

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<v Speaker 1>her apartment to drop off some items, and then leave

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<v Speaker 1>again to go somewhere to complete suicide, unless she jumped

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<v Speaker 1>into a body of water somewhere or traveled to a

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<v Speaker 1>remote area. I think Cindy's remains would have surfaced by

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<v Speaker 1>now if she had taken her own life, So the

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<v Speaker 1>most logical explanation for her disappearance is an abduction, But

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<v Speaker 1>the big question is how would have transpired. The presence

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<v Speaker 1>of Cindy's bags, cell phone, and fake eyelashes proved that

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<v Speaker 1>she made it inside her apartment after she was dropped off,

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<v Speaker 1>but since the rest of her bunny costume was never found,

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<v Speaker 1>that seems to indicate that she went missing before she

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<v Speaker 1>had a chance to change clothing, so she probably wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>in her apartment for very long. Since there was no

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<v Speaker 1>sign of struggle or forced entry, it seems like someone

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<v Speaker 1>could have knocked on Cindy's door and abducted her after

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<v Speaker 1>she opened it, or she was abducted after stepping outside

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<v Speaker 1>to go somewhere. I get the impression that the door

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<v Speaker 1>was locked when Cindy's roommate returned to the apartment later

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<v Speaker 1>that day, and since she didn't seem to notice anything

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<v Speaker 1>out of the ordinary, I'd say the second scenario is

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<v Speaker 1>far more likely. In spite of the fact that it

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<v Speaker 1>was four am. It apparently wasn't that uncommon for Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>to visit the nearby twenty four hour market at odd hours,

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<v Speaker 1>and given that her purse was missing, she probably made

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<v Speaker 1>the impulsive decision to go grab something and wound up

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<v Speaker 1>crossing paths with the wrong person.

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<v Speaker 3>And think about this too, when you think about the

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<v Speaker 3>iconic playboy bunny and the way that boy buddies are sexualized,

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<v Speaker 3>there a sexual icon right that you could imagine this

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<v Speaker 3>young girl in a bunny costume, right, even though her

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<v Speaker 3>ears are back at the house. Let's say she had

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<v Speaker 3>on a leotard and a tail or, a cute little

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<v Speaker 3>shorts and a tail on it or whatever. On Halloween night.

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<v Speaker 3>You could imagine the kind of men who would be

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<v Speaker 3>driving around at four am in the morning what they

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<v Speaker 3>could be thinking when they pass a young girl like

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<v Speaker 3>that what kind of sick, depraved thoughts could go on.

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<v Speaker 3>She's alone, there probably aren't many other people out and

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<v Speaker 3>about on the streets at that hour, and so I

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<v Speaker 3>just feel like the combination of factors playing in right there,

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<v Speaker 3>the vulnerability, the sexualization, the kind of depravity that could

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<v Speaker 3>come from that could escalate quite quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what I'm thinking has happened. That if she

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<v Speaker 2>was out there alone at four am and just some

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<v Speaker 2>predator just happened to be driving by, if he saw

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<v Speaker 2>her in the playboy buddy costume, he may have decided

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<v Speaker 2>this is a great target. This is who I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to to have ducked. The big issue which hampered the

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<v Speaker 2>early stages of the investigation was the lack of suspects,

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<v Speaker 2>as Cindy didn't have any known enemies and her ex boyfriend,

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<v Speaker 2>the one person who might have had a potential motive

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<v Speaker 2>to harmer, was ruled out almost immediately. Since Cindy spent

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<v Speaker 2>the night partying at a club, you could easily assume

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<v Speaker 2>that someone who was there might have developed a fixation

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<v Speaker 2>on her and followed her home. But the problem is

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<v Speaker 2>that Cindy left the club at two AM and spent

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<v Speaker 2>the next two hours, traveling to various locations such as

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<v Speaker 2>a friend's place, before heading back to her apartment, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure anyone would have followed her for that

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<v Speaker 2>length of time, particularly if she was in the company

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<v Speaker 2>of other friends, and even if they did, they probably

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have been able to predict that she would enter

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<v Speaker 2>her apartment and then decide to leave again at that

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<v Speaker 2>time of the morning, So I think her abduction may

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<v Speaker 2>have been completely random, as the wrong person could have

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<v Speaker 2>seen her walking down the street alone and took advantage

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<v Speaker 2>of the situation to grab her. The most prominent eyewitness

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<v Speaker 2>sighting of Cindy after she would sing is the woman

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<v Speaker 2>who claims she saw in Philadelphia's Chinatown district a few

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<v Speaker 2>days later screaming for help while in the clutches of

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<v Speaker 2>another man. This led to speculation that Cindy may have

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<v Speaker 2>been kidnapped and forced into sex work, and this man

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<v Speaker 2>was her handler. However, I'm inclined to think the witness

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<v Speaker 2>may have been mistaken and after she saw another Asian

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<v Speaker 2>woman who was not Cindy. In fact, I wonder if

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<v Speaker 2>her account is even true at all, As investigators claimed

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<v Speaker 2>the witnesses story changed multiple times so I'd hate to

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<v Speaker 2>think she just made the whole story up. But if

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<v Speaker 2>she was telling the truth and she really did see

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<v Speaker 2>a completely different woman crying and screaming for help, then

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<v Speaker 2>I have to wonder what was going on there. Regardless,

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<v Speaker 2>it does not sound like the authorities found the Philadelphia

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<v Speaker 2>sighting to be credible.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, with eyewitness identification, especially if this was like a

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<v Speaker 3>cross racial kind of identification, like a Caucasian woman I

295
00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.759
<v Speaker 3>didnifind an Asian woman, or let's say that she might

296
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.360
<v Speaker 3>have been a black woman, identifying this Asian woman, you

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00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:03.559
<v Speaker 3>will see lower rates of successful eyewitness identification. Scientifically, it

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00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.600
<v Speaker 3>just says we paint a canvas clearer on the same

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<v Speaker 3>color skin that we have, and so I think that

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<v Speaker 3>complicates the situation. I also think that you have to remember,

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<v Speaker 3>if Cindy's face is plastered everywhere as a missing girl,

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00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.360
<v Speaker 3>people might in their mind replace the face of the

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00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.440
<v Speaker 3>person they saw with that image that's on the missing

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00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.679
<v Speaker 3>poster or on the news that night. And so I

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00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:32.200
<v Speaker 3>rarely think eyewitnesses are coming forward trying to complicate or

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00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:35.960
<v Speaker 3>hurt a scenario or an investigation, But I do think

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00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.799
<v Speaker 3>that they often get it wrong trying to help and

308
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:43.039
<v Speaker 3>just not having accurate information. If this woman did see

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00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:47.000
<v Speaker 3>Cindy that day, it does make sense that she could

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<v Speaker 3>be trying to scream out in public when she's been

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<v Speaker 3>let's say, held captive, and then this man takes her

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<v Speaker 3>out for sex work or even just to be out

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<v Speaker 3>in public, and when she thinks she has a chance,

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<v Speaker 3>she screams for her home. How scary to think if

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00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.000
<v Speaker 3>it was Cindy, she truly was at that moment trying

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<v Speaker 3>to get someone to recognize and help her fight for

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<v Speaker 3>her life. And it doesn't seem like anything happened from

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<v Speaker 3>that dispute in public with this man.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it would be a lot more credible if

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<v Speaker 1>the witness was Korean themselves, because what we know about

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<v Speaker 1>cross racial identification being so poor. Do we know anything

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00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:26.640
<v Speaker 1>about this witness?

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<v Speaker 2>Robin Uh, I'm just going to check the unsolve Mysteri's reenactment.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can't say it to be accurate, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious to see if the woman was white or

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<v Speaker 2>if she was Asian herself. Well, I don't know any

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00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:43.079
<v Speaker 2>information about her as a person, but let me just see. Uh, Okay, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the reenactment shows that the witness was an Asian woman,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm not sure if there was any cross racial

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<v Speaker 2>identification here.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I definitely think that would strengthen her her reporting

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<v Speaker 3>at that point that you have same race identification, which helps.

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<v Speaker 3>But again, you also have a moment where there's a

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<v Speaker 3>struggle and a kind of chaotic scene where a woman's

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<v Speaker 3>screaming for help. There's a lot of factors that'll go

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00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.480
<v Speaker 3>into distracting someone's brain from focusing specifically on facial features.

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00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:16.119
<v Speaker 3>When you have a lot of chaos at the scene,

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00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:20.119
<v Speaker 3>or you have a weapon present lighting, all kinds of

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00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.000
<v Speaker 3>things matter. So again, I don't think many people come

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00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.599
<v Speaker 3>forward trying to distract police. But I wish our story

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<v Speaker 3>had stayed the same, and I wish there had been

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<v Speaker 3>more clear evidence that this really was Cindy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if she was telling the truth, it might

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<v Speaker 2>have been nothing more than a regular domestic dispute involving

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00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:40.640
<v Speaker 2>a pair of a couple or something like that and

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<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with Cindy.

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<v Speaker 1>And who knows, Maybe it was somebody who was in

348
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.119
<v Speaker 1>a situation where they were being trafficked, but it just

349
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.680
<v Speaker 1>wasn't Cindy. For a while, the Philadelphia sighting was the

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<v Speaker 1>only major lead in Cindy's case until she was connected

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<v Speaker 1>to Hugo Soelenski. Now, like we mentioned in our last episode,

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00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:04.039
<v Speaker 1>trying to cover Hugo Selenski's story from beginning to end

353
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.000
<v Speaker 1>would probably take an entire long form podcast, and we

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00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.480
<v Speaker 1>don't want to become too distracted by it in order

355
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.599
<v Speaker 1>to take the focus away from Cindy's case. But the

356
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.480
<v Speaker 1>whole story is pretty crazy, and I'm not sure we'll

357
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.680
<v Speaker 1>ever learn the full extent of all the horrific crimes

358
00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.000
<v Speaker 1>that Selensky has committed. Before he was charged with any murders,

359
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:27.079
<v Speaker 1>Selensky was already in jail because he'd been arrested for

360
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:31.839
<v Speaker 1>extorting money from Michael Kurkowski's father After he murdered Kurkowski

361
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<v Speaker 1>and buried his body. Selensky had the audacity to keep

362
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<v Speaker 1>visiting the guy's father to inform him that his son

363
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.240
<v Speaker 1>was on the run and needed money to help him

364
00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:47.319
<v Speaker 1>hide out. When Krekowski's father eventually became suspicious, Selensky threatened

365
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:49.359
<v Speaker 1>him with a gun in order to get him to

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00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.480
<v Speaker 1>hand over his money, and in total, he managed to

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<v Speaker 1>extort around one hundred thousand dollars from him. Another crazy

368
00:19:56.839 --> 00:19:59.640
<v Speaker 1>part of his saga which we didn't mention is the

369
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<v Speaker 1>shortly after he was charged with the murders of Frank

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<v Speaker 1>James and a day Keeler Selenski managed to perform a

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<v Speaker 1>daring escape from the Luzerne County prison by trying twelve

372
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<v Speaker 1>bed sheets together as a rope and using it to

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<v Speaker 1>climb out a six floor window. He turned himself in

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<v Speaker 1>only three days later, but the escape was pretty big

375
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<v Speaker 1>news in Pennsylvania at the time.

376
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<v Speaker 3>How scary when you have this idea that we know

377
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<v Speaker 3>he killed the two people and then he also murdered Kurkowski,

378
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.920
<v Speaker 3>but then he goes and extorts the father of one

379
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<v Speaker 3>of his murder victims and someone who was supposedly quote

380
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<v Speaker 3>his friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that right? Yeah, Like Selensky have been helping Kakowski

382
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.359
<v Speaker 2>out because he had his own legal situation where he

383
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.960
<v Speaker 2>was getting arrested for illegally selling pharmaceuticals. But it seemed

384
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.519
<v Speaker 2>like an obvious con job where he was going to

385
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<v Speaker 2>bleed Kurkowski drive then kill him, and then after he's dead,

386
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<v Speaker 2>he starts trying to bleed money from Kurkowski's father.

387
00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.400
<v Speaker 3>That's insane. And in the story from the the other

388
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.680
<v Speaker 3>we have another person who comes forward and says both

389
00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:05.359
<v Speaker 3>of those men were the ones who could have possibly

390
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<v Speaker 3>abducted Cindy.

391
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly. Yeah, And that's the run reason people are

392
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>skeptical because even though Kurkowski was a drug dealer, he

393
00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.519
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have any known history of violence. So people are wondering,

394
00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.160
<v Speaker 2>would he really team up with Selenski just to abduct

395
00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.759
<v Speaker 2>some random woman and then kill her and hold.

396
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.519
<v Speaker 3>Her captive and things like that. That's quite a jump.

397
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:28.759
<v Speaker 2>Selensky is clearly a sociopathic monster who has murdered multiple people.

398
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.160
<v Speaker 2>But all that being said, I can't say I'm entirely

399
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.720
<v Speaker 2>convinced that he murdered Cindy Song. Let's go back and

400
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:39.240
<v Speaker 2>examine how Sidney's disappearance was linked to Selensky. To begin with,

401
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.279
<v Speaker 2>this was all due to a secondhand story shared by

402
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Paul Weakley, the same man who led the authorities to

403
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:49.519
<v Speaker 2>the murder victims buried on Selenski's property. According to Weekly,

404
00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Selensky had told him that he and Michael Kurkowski saw

405
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.200
<v Speaker 2>Cindy walking down the street, thought she was a sex worker,

406
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and decided to abduct her. Kurkowski then kept Sydney confer

407
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.079
<v Speaker 2>find inside is safe at his home to have his

408
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.599
<v Speaker 2>way with her for a while before she died curiously.

409
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<v Speaker 2>Not even the accounts of this story described Cindy's exact

410
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.240
<v Speaker 2>cause of death, only that she died while in captivity,

411
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:16.880
<v Speaker 2>but afterward Selenski and Kurkowski proceeded to bury her body

412
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.599
<v Speaker 2>somewhere together. It's been established that none of the victims

413
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.960
<v Speaker 2>found on Selenski's property in two thousand and three were Cindy,

414
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.400
<v Speaker 2>but there is some confusion about how many victims there

415
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:31.480
<v Speaker 2>actually are. Initially, it was reported that they only found

416
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the remains of five people, but a grand jury report

417
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.480
<v Speaker 2>from twenty fourteen stated that Selensky was believed to be

418
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.839
<v Speaker 2>involved in the murder of twelve people, and Weekly claimed

419
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.960
<v Speaker 2>that Selensky was responsible for at least sixteen murders. I

420
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.279
<v Speaker 2>think some of the confusion might stem from the fact

421
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.759
<v Speaker 2>that a number of bone fragments were found in a

422
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 2>burn pit, and some of them were so badly burned

423
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and destroyed that it was impossible to extract any DNA

424
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 2>from them. We know some of these fragments belong to

425
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Frank James a Day, a healer, and a third person

426
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.839
<v Speaker 2>who has never been publicly identified, but it's possible. They've

427
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.759
<v Speaker 2>since determined that there's some remains there which belong to

428
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:10.440
<v Speaker 2>other people.

429
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.480
<v Speaker 3>What do we know about Weekly himself. Is it possible

430
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.000
<v Speaker 3>that he could have actually been part of this and

431
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:20.599
<v Speaker 3>had an ability to put people on Selenski's property with him,

432
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.720
<v Speaker 3>or is he been ruled out as having any kind

433
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.440
<v Speaker 3>of foul play recognition with Selensky.

434
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.960
<v Speaker 2>They're not entirely sure yet, because he does seem like

435
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.799
<v Speaker 2>he could be a compulsive liar, and I know that

436
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 2>he definitely helped with the disposal of some of these

437
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.359
<v Speaker 2>bodies at the very least. And they think that maybe

438
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.039
<v Speaker 2>he's just making up stories because he's trying to beat

439
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.119
<v Speaker 2>his own charges and hoping that if he can offer

440
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.480
<v Speaker 2>more information maybe he'll get a reduced sentence or something.

441
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:51.039
<v Speaker 2>So authorities have never been entirely clear about whether everything

442
00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:52.240
<v Speaker 2>he's telling is the truth.

443
00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:55.960
<v Speaker 3>I think it's very scary that the grand jury report,

444
00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 3>not just Weekly, but a grand jury report actually believes

445
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.319
<v Speaker 3>Lensky's involved in the murder of up to twelve people.

446
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.400
<v Speaker 3>That's insane because right now, really it's five, three to five,

447
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.319
<v Speaker 3>and then they said, well, actually we believe it's twelve.

448
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.839
<v Speaker 3>That's an insane victim count for somebody.

449
00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:17.200
<v Speaker 1>And it can't just be this arbitrary number that they're

450
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.880
<v Speaker 1>coming up with. They must have people that have disappeared

451
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:24.759
<v Speaker 1>or that they believe are murdered that are very specific,

452
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.000
<v Speaker 1>like they know the identities of them. Otherwise, how could

453
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:31.119
<v Speaker 1>you just put a number out there like, oh, it's twelve,

454
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:33.799
<v Speaker 1>since you know that there's at least the remains of

455
00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.240
<v Speaker 1>three people there. I don't understand how they're supposed to

456
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.480
<v Speaker 1>be this other nine people unless you just think he's

457
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.519
<v Speaker 1>this killer and he's got these other like associates if

458
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.279
<v Speaker 1>they're doing illegal things together and a lot of these

459
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:51.039
<v Speaker 1>associates have disappeared, and it seems like he's a common denominator.

460
00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:54.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's always been very secretive about how they came

461
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:56.599
<v Speaker 2>in with that number twelve, because there are just so

462
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.720
<v Speaker 2>many bone fragments all over the property, Like how do

463
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.599
<v Speaker 2>you term in an exact number from what you find?

464
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.920
<v Speaker 2>So it does make me think that they have more

465
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.920
<v Speaker 2>information than they're letting us know. But this grand jury

466
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.960
<v Speaker 2>report came out nearly ten years ago, and we still

467
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.279
<v Speaker 2>don't have any further information about why they came to

468
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:17.319
<v Speaker 2>that number. And Selensky has never been linked to any

469
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:18.279
<v Speaker 2>additional murders.

470
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.240
<v Speaker 1>But even if the authorities have managed to uncover additional

471
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.200
<v Speaker 1>victims who were murdered on Selenski's property, I really don't

472
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.319
<v Speaker 1>think it's relevant to Cindy's case. Remember, Selenski did not

473
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.039
<v Speaker 1>actually move on to this property until the spring of

474
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.319
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and two, months after Cindy went missing. In fact,

475
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.960
<v Speaker 1>his entire motive for murdering Kurkowski around this time period

476
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.880
<v Speaker 1>was because he needed money to close on the purchase

477
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.240
<v Speaker 1>of his new home. So if Selensky was involved in

478
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.079
<v Speaker 1>Cindy's murder, he probably would have buried her body somewhere else.

479
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.079
<v Speaker 1>And unless Lensky decided to recover her remains at a

480
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.799
<v Speaker 1>later time and then move them to his property in

481
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:01.400
<v Speaker 1>order to bury your birth in them, I have my

482
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.599
<v Speaker 1>doubts that you're ever going to find her there. But

483
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.039
<v Speaker 1>all this talk about remains is completely irrelevant. If Paul

484
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Weakley's story about Cindy's alleged abduction and murder aren't even

485
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:16.839
<v Speaker 1>true and there are definitely some serious credibility issues with him.

486
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:21.039
<v Speaker 1>The problem is that both Selenski and Michael Kurkowski were

487
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.480
<v Speaker 1>accused of committing this crime together and I'm not entirely

488
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.799
<v Speaker 1>sure if this fits Kurkowski's profile. The reason Selensky and

489
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:33.519
<v Speaker 1>Kurkowski became acquainted in the first place is because Krekowski

490
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.880
<v Speaker 1>had been charged with several felonies because of his illegal

491
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:41.200
<v Speaker 1>prescription drug bring. While he was out on bond, Selensky

492
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:43.880
<v Speaker 1>convinced Kurkowski to pay him to help him out with

493
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.799
<v Speaker 1>his legal issues, but of course this turned out to

494
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.440
<v Speaker 1>be nothing but an elaborate scam to extort money from Kurkowski. Obviously,

495
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.680
<v Speaker 1>Krekowski was not a saint, and he deserved to spend

496
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.480
<v Speaker 1>time in prison for his crimes, but as far as

497
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.920
<v Speaker 1>I can tell, he did not have any known propena

498
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.640
<v Speaker 1>city for violence before his legal troubles. He was a

499
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.440
<v Speaker 1>married man with two children who ran a successful pharmacy,

500
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.119
<v Speaker 1>and it seems like his crimes were entirely motivated by greed.

501
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.039
<v Speaker 1>There doesn't seem to be anything in his background to

502
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.160
<v Speaker 1>suggest that he was a type of guy who would

503
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:19.039
<v Speaker 1>abduct a woman, keep her imprisoned as a sex slave,

504
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:19.920
<v Speaker 1>and then kill her.

505
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:23.519
<v Speaker 3>And what's really interesting is that these are he's committing

506
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.759
<v Speaker 3>white collar crimes. He's stealing illegal prescription drugs. I believe

507
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:31.000
<v Speaker 3>in selling those from the pharmacy, and so that's a

508
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.799
<v Speaker 3>very different level of crime than let's say a street

509
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:38.480
<v Speaker 3>drug dealer who might actually be involved in things like

510
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.680
<v Speaker 3>sex work, all kinds of things where he's doing other

511
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.160
<v Speaker 3>street crimes to help supplement or provide more power and

512
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:50.640
<v Speaker 3>control on the streets for him. So I keep wondering

513
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:54.039
<v Speaker 3>what the heck did Kurkowski think Selensky was going to

514
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 3>help him with when he went and started getting conned

515
00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.640
<v Speaker 3>out of money from Selensky. What did Selensky offer?

516
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that part is confusing to me because it's not

517
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.119
<v Speaker 2>like he was a lawyer, so I don't know what

518
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.440
<v Speaker 2>he thought Selensky was going to do to help him,

519
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.160
<v Speaker 2>to help him to cause him to beat his charges.

520
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:14.319
<v Speaker 2>So he must have been a very smooth talking con man.

521
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 2>But Jules brought this up in the last episode, and

522
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.680
<v Speaker 2>while this has never been conclusively proven, we also wondered

523
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:23.960
<v Speaker 2>if Kurkowski might have had addiction issues, that maybe he

524
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.039
<v Speaker 2>had been having issues with a lot of these prescription

525
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 2>drugs himself and that's why he became desperate enough in

526
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.960
<v Speaker 2>order to start selling them legally because he desperately needed money. So,

527
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:37.599
<v Speaker 2>like I said, he may not be a bad person

528
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:39.759
<v Speaker 2>at heart. He may have just done a bad thing

529
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.839
<v Speaker 2>because he was desperate, and that's a far cry from

530
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.680
<v Speaker 2>actively participating in the abduction, sexual assault, and murder of

531
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.759
<v Speaker 2>a woman. At the time Cindy disappeared, Kurkowski's wife had

532
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.160
<v Speaker 2>already divorced him and moved out of his house with

533
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:55.759
<v Speaker 2>their kids. But no one is certain when he began

534
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.799
<v Speaker 2>his relationship with his new girlfriend, Tammy Fassett. We know

535
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 2>she was at Kurkowski's home on the day Selensky killed him,

536
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not entirely sure if they were living together

537
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:09.799
<v Speaker 2>at the time. Regardless, if Kurkowski and Fasett were involved

538
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 2>in a serious relationship in November of two thousand and

539
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>one and she was often frequenting his home, would he

540
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.000
<v Speaker 2>really be keeping a kidnapped sex slave in prison inside

541
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 2>a safe But even if you don't believe Kurkowski was

542
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>a sex criminal, that doesn't really fit Selenski's profile either.

543
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.599
<v Speaker 2>As awful as Selensky is, it seems like the murders

544
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.160
<v Speaker 2>he committed were motivated purely by financial game, as he

545
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>killed his four known victims in order to rob them.

546
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.599
<v Speaker 2>I see nothing to indicate that he was the type

547
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.160
<v Speaker 2>of guy who would abduct random women off the street

548
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.039
<v Speaker 2>in order to rape and murder them. The circumstances of

549
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.839
<v Speaker 2>this alleged crime really don't make much sense. Kurkowski was

550
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.279
<v Speaker 2>out on bond facing potential prison time, and Selensky is

551
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.200
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be helping him with his legal situation, So

552
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:58.480
<v Speaker 2>would Kirkowski really want to take the risk of abducting someone.

553
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.519
<v Speaker 2>It's also where mentioning that Kurkowski lived in Humlock Creek,

554
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.839
<v Speaker 2>which is over two hours away from State College. So

555
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:08.640
<v Speaker 2>the idea of him and Selensky making a four hour

556
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.519
<v Speaker 2>round trip to cruise the streets and abduct a random

557
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.119
<v Speaker 2>woman at four am before taking her back to Kurkowski's

558
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>home just doesn't ring true to me.

559
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.680
<v Speaker 3>No, it doesn't really seem to fit. I agree with you.

560
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:26.440
<v Speaker 3>Even Selenski doesn't seem to be the sexually motivated, crazed

561
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.480
<v Speaker 3>killer that would be someone. As he's driving past, he

562
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.119
<v Speaker 3>sees his girl on a playboy bunny outfit and abducts

563
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 3>her and keeps her. Right, that's a whole nother level.

564
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.240
<v Speaker 3>You're going to take the risk of keeping her for

565
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:42.599
<v Speaker 3>days and abusing her and then killing her with other

566
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:46.480
<v Speaker 3>people like a lot of those things totally changed the

567
00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:50.440
<v Speaker 3>organization and the style of a killer. Selensky seems to

568
00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:55.200
<v Speaker 3>use people for financial gain and murder them and hind them.

569
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:59.359
<v Speaker 3>Never before have we seen him really killing with someone else.

570
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.680
<v Speaker 3>Un last week happens to be part of it as well.

571
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.480
<v Speaker 3>But it is odd. It's very weird, especially for Kurkowski.

572
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.599
<v Speaker 3>He had a good life and even if he was

573
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:14.440
<v Speaker 3>struggling with addiction, obviously he's facing legal issues. He was

574
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.720
<v Speaker 3>just just a different part of his life. Like if

575
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.079
<v Speaker 3>he's trying to get away from these legal charges, try

576
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.680
<v Speaker 3>to figure out how to get his LFE back on track,

577
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.839
<v Speaker 3>and he truly thinks Celensky can help him. Why all

578
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:27.519
<v Speaker 3>of a sudden is he going to take those kinds

579
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 3>of big risk and say, you know what we should do, abduct, torture,

580
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.400
<v Speaker 3>hold and then kill a girl together. Just doesn't seem

581
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:35.039
<v Speaker 3>to make sense.

582
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:38.839
<v Speaker 1>I think the biggest issue is that the only thing

583
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.359
<v Speaker 1>linking these two men to Cindy's disappearance is Paul Weekley,

584
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 1>who is just not a very credible source. It was

585
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.960
<v Speaker 1>established the Weekly had downloaded articles about Cindy's case off

586
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.519
<v Speaker 1>the Internet prior to sharing his story, so he very

587
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:57.039
<v Speaker 1>well could have been looking up information about random Pennsylvania

588
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.240
<v Speaker 1>cold cases and keeping it in his back pocket if

589
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 1>he ever felt like feeding something to the authorities. To reiterate,

590
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Weekly decided to snitch on Selenski and lead authorities to

591
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the remains on his property because he was facing a

592
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.920
<v Speaker 1>burglary charge, but he did not tell the full truth

593
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.480
<v Speaker 1>about what happened. He initially claimed that Patrick Gruson was

594
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.359
<v Speaker 1>with Selenski when he murdered Michael Kurkowski and Tammy Fassett,

595
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.000
<v Speaker 1>but it actually turned out that Weekly himself was there instead.

596
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Weekly also initially said that Selensky murdered Krekowski because he

597
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.880
<v Speaker 1>was angry about him keeping Cindy's bunny ears as a souvenir,

598
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.680
<v Speaker 1>but it turned out the real motive was to steal

599
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:42.440
<v Speaker 1>sixty thousand dollars from Kurkowski's house, and Weekly conveniently neglected

600
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 1>to mention that he personally got cut out of that money.

601
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:47.880
<v Speaker 1>So you can see why he might feel the need

602
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.160
<v Speaker 1>to fabricate a story about Cindy's abduction and pin the

603
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:53.799
<v Speaker 1>crime on a guy who was already dead in order

604
00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:56.599
<v Speaker 1>to take the heat off of himself. But there might

605
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.799
<v Speaker 1>actually have been an ulterior motive for this. What if

606
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:03.720
<v Speaker 1>this was actually Selenski and Weekly who abducted and murdered Cindy.

607
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:09.039
<v Speaker 1>When the allegation's first surface, Selenski's defense attorney claimed that

608
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:11.759
<v Speaker 1>several people could place his client over one hundred and

609
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 1>thirty miles away in wilkes Bury at the time that

610
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Cindy went missing. Although I'm not sure if this was

611
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:21.920
<v Speaker 1>ever confirmed, But if Selensky wasn't involved, could it be

612
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:26.400
<v Speaker 1>possible that Weekly himself might be responsible for Cindy's disappearance.

613
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.599
<v Speaker 1>This might explain why he had so much information about

614
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.039
<v Speaker 1>Cindy on his computer. After all, if weakly wanted to

615
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.839
<v Speaker 1>divert suspicion away from himself, pinning the crime on an

616
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.759
<v Speaker 1>associate who already had a bunch of murder victims buried

617
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:43.880
<v Speaker 1>on his property wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.

618
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.359
<v Speaker 1>It's definitely an intriguing theory, But much like Selenski, it

619
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.559
<v Speaker 1>seems like most of Weekly's crimes were motivated by financial gain,

620
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and there's nothing in his background to suggesse he's a

621
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:56.200
<v Speaker 1>sexual predator.

622
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.519
<v Speaker 3>I think we really could have a lot of motivations.

623
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.279
<v Speaker 3>I definitely think he could be the person who did it.

624
00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:04.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's, like you said, not a not a

625
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.519
<v Speaker 3>dumb idea. If you know that you have an associate

626
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:11.920
<v Speaker 3>who's pretty evil themselves, and you do something that's dark

627
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:14.320
<v Speaker 3>and devious, why not just blame it on the person

628
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:15.760
<v Speaker 3>that's already going to go down for a lot of

629
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.039
<v Speaker 3>really bad things. But I also think like Weekly could

630
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.559
<v Speaker 3>have had a falling out with Selinsky. Selensky could be

631
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.440
<v Speaker 3>threatening Weekly, and there could be like a revenge kind

632
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.800
<v Speaker 3>of thing where he wants to just get back at Selensky.

633
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.199
<v Speaker 3>And I mean blatantly say I'm lying about you, but

634
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:34.719
<v Speaker 3>here you go, I'm turning against you on this case.

635
00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:37.719
<v Speaker 3>Or it's very possible too, Like you said earlier, that

636
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.719
<v Speaker 3>Weekly is trying to get favoritism with whoever he's going

637
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.199
<v Speaker 3>to be up against for legal issues, you know, the

638
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:48.840
<v Speaker 3>prosecutor or law enforcement things like that, to get better

639
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.400
<v Speaker 3>treatment for himself. And so it's really nothing to do

640
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.760
<v Speaker 3>with Selinsky. He's just saying, Hey, I'm going to help

641
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:56.400
<v Speaker 3>the police because then they'll see me as someone who's valuable.

642
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.039
<v Speaker 3>I could be more of an informant and maybe they'll

643
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.840
<v Speaker 3>reduce my charge. They'll actually lighten up things that they're

644
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.760
<v Speaker 3>doing against me because I'm helping them.

645
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.280
<v Speaker 2>That definitely would make sense to me, because he was

646
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 2>facing all these charges and he knows that his former

647
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.639
<v Speaker 2>assays he has all these human remains buried on his property,

648
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 2>so he could just say, hey, I can pick some

649
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.679
<v Speaker 2>other missing girl whom I found in the news and

650
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.599
<v Speaker 2>claim that she's among the remains, and maybe they'll give

651
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.360
<v Speaker 2>me some leniency. Be able, they'll believe me. But they

652
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:30.880
<v Speaker 2>just never found any conclusive evidence to approve that. Overall,

653
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:34.559
<v Speaker 2>there has never been any hard evidence to implicate Selensky, Kurkowski,

654
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:36.920
<v Speaker 2>or Weekly in this crime, and when you look at

655
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.719
<v Speaker 2>the situation as a whole, it just seems more likely

656
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 2>that the real perpetrator was someone who was yet to

657
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>show up on the radar. Weekly probably learned about Sidney's

658
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.840
<v Speaker 2>disappearance on the internet and decided to fabricate a story

659
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.519
<v Speaker 2>about Selensky's involvement in order to potentially earn some brownie

660
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>points from the authorities. On the one hand, I really

661
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.280
<v Speaker 2>hope Weekly story isn't true, since it's horrifying to consider

662
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.800
<v Speaker 2>the idea of Sidy being held captive in a safe

663
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 2>and being repeatedly sexually assaulted before her death. But on

664
00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:09.559
<v Speaker 2>the other hand, if you completely disregard Weekly's story, then

665
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:12.239
<v Speaker 2>that means the investigation is back at square one and

666
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:16.000
<v Speaker 2>there are no other leads or suspects. Sadly, Cindy was

667
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:18.280
<v Speaker 2>probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time,

668
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.320
<v Speaker 2>and while she was walking to the market, some predator

669
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>happened to notice an attractive young woman walking alone, and

670
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:26.880
<v Speaker 2>since there was no one else around during the wee

671
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>hours of the morning, he took advantage of the situation

672
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.840
<v Speaker 2>by abducting her. If no one saw anything and the

673
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.840
<v Speaker 2>perpetrator did leave any evidence behind, it's going to be

674
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.719
<v Speaker 2>very difficult to figure out who is responsible. The best

675
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 2>hope for solving this case is if Cindy's remains just

676
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.320
<v Speaker 2>happened to be found somewhere, or if whoever was involved

677
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.000
<v Speaker 2>in her disappearance decides to talk. Remember, for the first

678
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.840
<v Speaker 2>year that Michael Kurkowski and Tammy Fasset were missing, everyone

679
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.840
<v Speaker 2>just assumed they were wanted fugitives on the run until

680
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Paul Weekly talked and revealed they were buried on hyug

681
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Selenski's property. So maybe the same thing will happen in

682
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:05.960
<v Speaker 2>this case, and Sydney's remains will be recovered. If you

683
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 2>happen to have any information about the unsolved disappearance of

684
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Sidney Song, please contact the Ferguson Township Police Department at

685
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.360
<v Speaker 2>eight one four two three seven one one seven two.

686
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:20.000
<v Speaker 2>That's eight one four two three seven one one seven

687
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 2>two Jules Ashley. Any final thoughts in this case.

688
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:29.360
<v Speaker 3>The missing person's cases break my heart in a different

689
00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:33.159
<v Speaker 3>way that there's a family wondering what happened to our

690
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:38.800
<v Speaker 3>baby girl and knowing that it's likely horrific, knowing that

691
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.599
<v Speaker 3>it is likely something that is so devastating that the

692
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:44.360
<v Speaker 3>human mind can't wrap, you know, its own head around.

693
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.119
<v Speaker 3>But when you think about it, they have zero peace.

694
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:51.559
<v Speaker 3>They don't have a body that they can go visit.

695
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:55.679
<v Speaker 3>They don't have the ability to say she was safe

696
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:57.840
<v Speaker 3>at the end of her life with us right we

697
00:37:57.880 --> 00:37:59.960
<v Speaker 3>had our body back, we were able to cremate her,

698
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.800
<v Speaker 3>bury her, or bring her home to her home country

699
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.119
<v Speaker 3>like none of that, And so then your brain starts

700
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.280
<v Speaker 3>to think what could be done to her? Is she deceased,

701
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:13.280
<v Speaker 3>is she cold and alone somewhere? Is she being trafficked?

702
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Is she still alive somewhere? All that I think adds

703
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.039
<v Speaker 3>a totally different kind of heartbreak to these kinds of cases.

704
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:27.199
<v Speaker 3>Her family came here and sent her here thinking she

705
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:30.079
<v Speaker 3>was going to get this amazing opportunity, and that's exactly

706
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:33.199
<v Speaker 3>what she was doing. She was going to school, she

707
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.199
<v Speaker 3>was going to parties, she was just being a kid

708
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:41.320
<v Speaker 3>and having fun and exploring a new country and making

709
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:45.800
<v Speaker 3>new friends. And literally a Halloween evening, I believe she

710
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.599
<v Speaker 3>was probably doing something she did all the time, which

711
00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:51.199
<v Speaker 3>was getting settled at home thinking, you know what, I

712
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.000
<v Speaker 3>want a little snack or something to drink before I

713
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.239
<v Speaker 3>go to bed, and walking to the very close by

714
00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:00.639
<v Speaker 3>convenience store, and on that route, especially that night, because

715
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:04.320
<v Speaker 3>she was dressed in her Halloween costume, someone increased their

716
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:08.159
<v Speaker 3>feeling of vulnerability for her and abducted her and hurt her.

717
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:10.920
<v Speaker 3>I do not think Cindy hurt herself. I think she

718
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.880
<v Speaker 3>had a lot going for her, and her friends were

719
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:15.840
<v Speaker 3>able to vouch for the fact that she was happy

720
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.199
<v Speaker 3>and she was making plans and she was engaged. That night,

721
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:22.239
<v Speaker 3>I think someone saw an opportunity and they took it.

722
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:25.599
<v Speaker 3>And my heart breaks. It's cases like this that I

723
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:29.239
<v Speaker 3>just want her found, no matter what condition. That's inn

724
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.960
<v Speaker 3>I want her found because there is a different level

725
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:35.000
<v Speaker 3>of peace that comes when I know she's at least

726
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.440
<v Speaker 3>not being hurt by somebody else.

727
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.639
<v Speaker 1>I really don't have a lot to add on top

728
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of what Ash said, because you summed it up so succinctly,

729
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:46.159
<v Speaker 1>and I agree with every single point that she made.

730
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.159
<v Speaker 1>My heart breaks for the family, and I truly believe

731
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.639
<v Speaker 1>that Celenski, Krakowski and Weekly as the informant, are a

732
00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 1>red herring here. I think was an opportunistic predator. Somebody

733
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.920
<v Speaker 1>just came alway long in that small window of time

734
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 1>and they snatched her off the face of the earth.

735
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.239
<v Speaker 1>But I truly hope for the family's sake that they're

736
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.440
<v Speaker 1>able to have some kind of resolution, that her body

737
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.239
<v Speaker 1>or her remains will be found somewhere, and that if

738
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:19.079
<v Speaker 1>anybody knows anything that at this point, I would truly hope,

739
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.480
<v Speaker 1>after it's been so many years, it's been like what

740
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:26.079
<v Speaker 1>twenty three years at this point, that if somebody had information,

741
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I would truly hope that they would go to the

742
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:31.239
<v Speaker 1>authorities so that this family can get a resolution and

743
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.679
<v Speaker 1>they can truly heal or at least begin the process,

744
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:38.559
<v Speaker 1>because not having a body not having somewhere that you

745
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.639
<v Speaker 1>can go and visit for a loved one and to

746
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.039
<v Speaker 1>be able to say what you're thinking, but to know

747
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.719
<v Speaker 1>that their remains are out there somewhere and they aren't

748
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:49.960
<v Speaker 1>where you are is just another kind of horrible.

749
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I remember learning about this case on Unsolved Mystery

750
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:58.360
<v Speaker 2>shortly after it origidly occurred, and I also vividly remember

751
00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:00.880
<v Speaker 2>when the news started coming out that her remains could

752
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:04.079
<v Speaker 2>be on the property of Hugo Selenski, And there were

753
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.639
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years where I legitimately believed this was

754
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.960
<v Speaker 2>the best lead, that Selenski was responsible, and that the

755
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.239
<v Speaker 2>stories about her abducted and held in captivity were true.

756
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:15.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was only after I put together my original

757
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Trail and Cold episode way back in twenty eighteen and

758
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:21.679
<v Speaker 2>started digging more into this that I realized, like you said,

759
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.599
<v Speaker 2>that this is probably all a red herring, that even

760
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.840
<v Speaker 2>though Hugo Selenski's a serial killer, he's a monster and

761
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:30.880
<v Speaker 2>he's done some awful things, this really isn't his m

762
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.599
<v Speaker 2>He seems like the type of person who would kill

763
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:36.920
<v Speaker 2>people just purely for financial gain in his own benefits,

764
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:40.239
<v Speaker 2>and not someone who would abduct a random young woman

765
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:44.800
<v Speaker 2>he saw walking down the street at four am. So, unfortunately,

766
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I do believe that this whole lead is not really

767
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:50.280
<v Speaker 2>viable and that city was just a victim who was

768
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.280
<v Speaker 2>in the wrong place at the wrong time, that she

769
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>made a last minute decision to leave her apartments and

770
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.840
<v Speaker 2>go to a nearby market or something, but someone just

771
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.599
<v Speaker 2>happened to see her and abducted her. And we just

772
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:03.119
<v Speaker 2>don't know who this person is, what they did to her,

773
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:05.639
<v Speaker 2>and what they may have done to her body. So

774
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I guess that is kind of the downside to this

775
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:12.639
<v Speaker 2>whole Hugo Soelenski angle not going anywhere? Is that? Where

776
00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.920
<v Speaker 2>do we begin now? Because there's just no evidence whatsoever

777
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 2>to work with if Cindy was abducted by a completely

778
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.119
<v Speaker 2>random stranger. But all we can to really do is

779
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.400
<v Speaker 2>just keep her case out here on the spotlight, spread

780
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.639
<v Speaker 2>the word, and maybe one of these days the right

781
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:30.159
<v Speaker 2>person will come for with information which leads to a

782
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:33.440
<v Speaker 2>resolution and her family will finally get some closure.

783
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:36.360
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

784
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:37.880
<v Speaker 4>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

785
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

786
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:44.800
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

787
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.239
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

788
00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:51.119
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

789
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

790
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.840
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

791
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.039
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases with are not featured on

792
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:03.880
<v Speaker 2>the Trail went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to

793
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier three,

794
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:09.800
<v Speaker 2>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

795
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:14.519
<v Speaker 2>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

796
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.719
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

797
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.039
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

798
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.440
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

799
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:27.599
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

800
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.039
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

801
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:33.920
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

802
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

803
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.480
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

804
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.519
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

805
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

806
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:45.039
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

807
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.000
<v Speaker 4>about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

808
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:50.920
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of the Path Went Chili. We've got our

809
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:53.760
<v Speaker 4>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

810
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:56.000
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very mini, but they're just too short

811
00:43:56.039 --> 00:43:59.039
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

812
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.679
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you check out those patreons will link

813
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:02.760
<v Speaker 4>them in the show notes.

814
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:05.199
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

815
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:07.679
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

816
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:10.719
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

817
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:14.039
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

818
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwink. So

819
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.559
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

820
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.039
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

821
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy