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Speaker 1: You're listening to the mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Welcome to a special crossover episode of Cold Red and

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Mindover Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly, co host of Mindover Murder

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along with my co.

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Speaker 4: Host Bill Thomas from Mindover Murder.

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Speaker 5: Well, welcome back to another episode of Cold Redden. I'm

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Ray karm with me always is Fits Fits. How are you?

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Speaker 6: I'm great, especially with our good friends Bill and Kristen

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doing this special crossover episode about a case it's very

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important to them. We thought let's just do it together,

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and we're doing it live when the cold red and so, folks,

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thanks for being with us, and why don't you and

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Bill walk us through some new developments in the very

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well known case of Colonial park murders. And of course,

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as a reminder to our listeners, Bill's sister was a

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victim of this serial killer. But some new evidence has

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come up, some new information. Why don't you kind of

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give a quick summary of the case and we'll get

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into you have some questions from me and Ray I know,

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and we'll do our best to answer them for you.

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Hik good away, Kristin.

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Speaker 4: All right.

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Speaker 3: The Colonial Parkway murders are a series of what we

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first thought were double homicides, but have expanded since then

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to include ten victims that took place in Virginia from

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nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty nine and now possibly

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beyond that. The original victims were Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski,

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bill sister and her girlfriend, as well as David Noveling

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and Robin Edwards, Keith coll and Cassandra Hailey, Daniel Phelps

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I'm sorry, Daniel Lower and Anna Maria Phelps, and then

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two recently discovered victims, Terry Lynn spa Hal and Laurie

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Ann Powell. About ten days ago, Laurie Ann Powell was

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revealed to be linked to serial killer Alan Wade Wilmer

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via DNA, and our case has suddenly expanded much further

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than we had originally thought. And so when that case

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break happened, I wrote to Fits, our favorite profiling collaborator,

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to ask if he and Ray would be willing to

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answer some profiling questions for us on Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,

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our suspect, and Fits very kindly said yes he would.

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Speaker 6: Bill, did I.

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Speaker 3: Leave anything out or was it a enough summary?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's a great summary. One thing I would add,

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you've mentioned ten ten victims, four of whom now have

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been linked via DNA to our deceased suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer.

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He's a waterman from Lancaster County, Virginia. So we're confirmed

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now with four victims, and then the other six we're

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still trying to see if we can connect Wilmer or

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other suspects to their murders. So we've got six kind

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of open cases and four. Law enforcement seems to be

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avoiding the use of the term closed but at least

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linked to Wilmer is probably a fair way to put that.

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Maybe our two longtime FBI agents can clue us into

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what the right lingo is.

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Speaker 6: Well, I think, Kriston, you emailed me some interesting questions

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and valid questions, and I think why walking through them,

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we can you know, answer a lot of things that

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there may be some listeners out there that's brand new

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to this and obviously your veteran listeners will know a

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lot more about this case. And we've had you on

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pauled Red, both of you, and we've been on of

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course Mind over Murder. So I guess just ask away

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the questions right, anything before we kick in about the case.

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Speaker 5: No, no, I've also had a chance to look at

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those same questions, so whenever you're.

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Speaker 3: Ready, Christen, Okay, So our first question, just in the

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four victims that Wilmer has been linked to, we have

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three different types of weapons, a gun, strangulation, and stabbing.

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In your experience, do serial killers typically stick with one

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method of killing like cent of Sam in the twenty

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two or are they more likely to vary like Wilmer

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seems too.

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Speaker 6: I'll start with that there are times when serial killers

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will vary. That's part of their modus barandai that can change.

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What usually doesn't change is their signature behavior, and that

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is their particular choice of victims, which can alter slightly

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depending on what and who they come upon in terms

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of opportunity and convenience. But someone like Wilmer, who may

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have been traveling, he may have been in the hunting mode.

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And I think I said when we were with you

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before he was an apex predator. This guy was looking

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and searching his waterway areas for his victims all the time.

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He may have had his gun with him on some occasions,

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other times he didn't, and he came upon someone and said, oh,

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I have my knife in the back, I can use that.

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Or sometimes if he sizes him up, sees maybe two

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women that couldn't put up quite the fight that maybe

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some mended. He just used his hands or other less

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lethal type opportune weapons. So it is not unusual for

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serial killers to in fact utilize different weapons. Certainly from

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my experience right.

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Speaker 5: Now, I kind of agree with Jim. There's really no

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single rule here. Some serial fenders are extremely consistent with

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their remo, for example, choice of weapon or how they

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approach the individuals, but most methods serve a practical purpose

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as part of their fantasy, and a lot of times

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they vary because of situational situations or developmental reasons. For instance,

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it could be victim of resistance, it could be opportunity,

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it could be their access to weapons or even experimentation.

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When you look at a lot of serial killers, okay,

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there's a variation in their mo is not rare so

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in actuality. When you look at Wilmer's use of a gunshot,

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strangulation and stabbing, and it's linked to these victims, It's

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not a typical if you expect something identical when you're

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looking at the signature every time, but it's really within

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the range of behavior that serial fenders actually act, especially

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when you look at different victim contextas in this situation

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couples versus long victims, location, and whether sexual assault even occurred.

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Speaker 4: One thing that's worth noting with Wilmer as well is

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that we know a fair amount is about his background.

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He died in twenty seventeen. He's a waterman, he's expert

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on the water, and this area of Virginia is just

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surrounded by these beautiful rivers and inlets, and of course

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the Chesapeake Bay. He's also a crack shot, and he's

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actually a championship archer, so he has great skills, even

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winning archery competitions. He's a hunter. He is known to

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go out and live in the woods for days or

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even weeks at a time when he has time off,

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killing and eating his own food. So he really knows

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his way around the woods, the water, and the use

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of weapons.

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Speaker 6: And quite frankly human beings, where the ultimate prey for him,

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and whether he had the exact weapons he wanted. And

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let's face it was a crowded envin I mean, I

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won't say I know he didn't he didn't do these

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things in the inner city or in crowded areas, but

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maybe there was a car within twenty or you know,

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two hundred feet or a half mile, and he just said, hey,

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I like these victims here for my own purposes, but

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a gun would attract attention to me, so tonight I'm

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not going to use the gun. So it could be

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a very utilitarian and his ray said sort of environmentally

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oriented in terms of what's in his environment at the time.

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He also may have a police interaction. I know we're

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going to come to that a little bit later, where

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that if they find him with a gun, you know,

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it could be all kinds of problems for him. So

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he sort of morphs after that interaction with the with

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law enforcement and decides not to carry the gun anymore,

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or he just has you know, rope or wire or

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or certainly a knife sharp instrument of some point. And

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and that is once again this apex predator. He knows

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how to alter his hunting style to get across and

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just on me if I didn't explain it early on

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modus operon diets method of operations, the Latin term that

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is how a crime is carried out successfully. Signature behavior

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is usually a need driven behavior, usually sexually oriented. And

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these are the fetishes the pyrophilias that someone has within them.

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There it's okay to have a fetish or paraphilia if

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you're on your own, do your own thing, or with

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a consensual adult, But when you do it forcefully with

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someone else, that's of course where you know the law

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is broken and bad things happen, and that's the difference.

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So if someone like Wilmer has these sort of fetishes paraphilias,

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that's part of his signature. Behavior and the strangulation. And

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I hate to get graphic like this, you know, with

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Bill right on us, but actually watching someone's life fade

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away from them, as bizarre as it sounds, that's part

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of his sexual satisfaction and what frills him. And that's

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part of the signature behavior that doesn't change as much

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m o Ken for various reasons. And we see it

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all the time in serial offenders.

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Speaker 5: You know. And I'll just add this one last piece piece.

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There's not a real big jump here from how he

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hunted animals to how he hunted humans. Yes, there's exactly

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a big jump here.

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Speaker 4: So I just returned from Virginia and I was with

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Kristin and we met with several new people who have

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potentially some very interesting leads. But one of the things

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that we talked about, Kristin and I was that this

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almost begins to feel like hunting behavior, like we would

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think of, like you're saying, Ray hunting animals, but this

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might be people as prey. I know it's very disturbing

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for me and probably for Kristen too, but it is

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something that we've it sort of bubbled up in conversation

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over the weekend meeting with these folks. Sure.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that's been interesting is watching sort

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of the evolution of this case as more victims have

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come to light. So like Fits and Ray, when I

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first met you, we only had the eight victims that

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were part of the Colonial Parkway murders. But in the

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last two years, Terry Lynn Howell has been another confirmed victim,

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and now Laurie and Powell as well, And so with

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the two of them, we now have confirmation that Wilmer

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was sexually assaulting multiple victims. When it was just the eight,

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it seemed like Robin Edwards was just the one off

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because she was the only one of the victims that

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we could tell had been sexually assaulted. But now it

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becomes apparent that Wilmer assaulted all of the women that

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he has been tied to. So my question for you

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guys is does this mean that when he was out

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hunting couples, his focus was likely on the women as

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opposed to being on the men.

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Speaker 7: Jim want me to go here, now you go first?

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Speaker 6: This time? Go ahead.

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Speaker 5: You know, when you look at if he's sexually assault

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a woman, what does that mean? Was he hunting women

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rather than men? Sexual assault of a female victims strongly indicates,

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at least in my mind, that sexual motivation and control

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of a woman was a key element and at least

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some of these murders. When couples are targeted, the offender's

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primary victim can be the women, whether that's a sexual

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fantasy or a control aspect of it, but while the

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male partner is killed to either eliminate a witness or

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eliminate an obstacle. This pattern fits many cases that we've

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seen in the past, Jim and I, where couples will

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target it for sexual assault and assault is only present

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on one of the partners. The presence of sexual assault

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on multiple women regarding Wilmer has been leaked and supports

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that women were his focal point of his predatory behavior

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even when he attacked couples. The men just happen to

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be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And I would just add that this is not

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all that unusual of a sexual predator. Is one of

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the prow and he's good at what he does. And

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I hate putting it in those terms, but he's experienced,

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he gets better each time he undertakes one of these acts.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 6: You know, a couple, even with a man in there,

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who of course could put up more of a fight.

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Just adds to the challenge, just adds to the excitation.

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And look, this Wilmer isn't isn't alone in this in

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this area. You mentioned son of Sam earlier. He went

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after couples. Israel Keys was known to go after couples.

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I lived in Florence, Italy for about four months, and

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I was very aware of the Monster of Florence through

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the late the eighties, who killed all couples I think,

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uh straight gay, I mean all combinations there. So and

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that's just you know, three of them. Other you know,

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Richard spec went after groups of people. You know, others

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did in the Gainesville Killer, I forget his name in

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the top of my head, but in Gainesville, Florida, the university.

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So yeah, so this is not unusual and it just

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adds to the overall thrill of the hunt. Quite frankly,

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the sexual release at the end could almost be like

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secondary or tertiary and importance to some of these guys.

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It's about the control that takes place first and the

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manifestation of the power that he has over not just

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one but two people. And that's just all part of

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the signature behavior of this guy, which I described earlier,

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and he gets good at it. He knows how to

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control the mails. You take them out first, or threaten

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them first, if you tie them up. That's what I

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always tell people. I've told them from my earliest days

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in the FBI. If you're in a room somewhere in

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your car and someone comes up to you with a

257
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gun a weapon and he starts to bind your arms

258
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and legs, fight, You're probably going to be dead afterwards.

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Don't let them tie you up. And it's worth at

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least getting a punch to this guy's head or kicking

261
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them or something. And I don't know exactly in all

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the Colonial Parkway murder cases, but if there's ligatures involved

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in terms of tying someone up, I know he's real

264
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keys to that. In others, that's when you just say,

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you know, dude, if I want to die, I'm going

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to die. Punching you out or trying to get your

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gun off you, something like that.

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Speaker 4: There are ligatures used in some of the Colonial Parkway murders.

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And I know in Kathy and Becky's incident, which is

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the first and the only lesbian couple, Kathy really struggled

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with this with this man and ended up with hair

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in her hand which was shown to be in evidence

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at autopsy. I still have never gotten a straight answer

274
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as to what has happened with the testing of the hair,

275
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but there was a struggle in that example. And it

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does appear that ligatures were used several times in the

277
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Colonial Parkway murders. Do you think the gun is which

278
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shows up with one of the couples, Robin Edwards and

279
00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:00,320
David Nobling weren't shot. Do you think I think the

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gun may be used in the early stages to establish

281
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control and then it's put aside. Or do you think

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he's varying his techniques.

283
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Speaker 5: I think in my estimation, he's absolutely It's very possible

284
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he's absolutely varying his techniques. But his initial his initial

285
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crime was a lot that he didn't have the confidence

286
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to be able to do or what he needed to do,

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and the gun gave him that confidence. And as he

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gained confidence, he kind of pulled away from those things.

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But when you look at at the at the ligatures,

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I think most of the ligatures and I don't know,

291
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but I would bet that most of the ligatures were

292
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used as a control method, especially if you're dealing with

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two people, rather than as part of the act of

294
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what he was doing. But I think as he gained

295
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in and Jim talked about this, the more of these

296
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offenses he committed. As he went, he became better educated,

297
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he became smarter, he became stronger in his ability to

298
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do things, became wiser, and a lot of times he

299
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didn't need things because he knew exactly what they do.

300
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He knew exactly how people were going to react to him,

301
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and that's how he was able to be successful throughout

302
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that period of time that he actually committed these crimes.

303
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Speaker 6: You know, I always offer investigators too about serial cases.

304
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It could be serial bank robber, for cerial bomber, killer,

305
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in this case, rapist. The first crime, and that's the

306
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tricky part. We don't always know what is the first crime.

307
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The first reported crime is the only one that we

308
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can go on. That is where most of the evidence

309
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and most of the behavior will be closest linked to

310
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the offender geographically, behaviorally, forensically. That's where the person is.

311
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If it is in fact the first offense, that'll tell

312
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us most about that individual, the area of familiarity, their

313
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comfort zone, not to mention how they go about approaching victims.

314
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Are they, you know, smooth talkers like a bunch? Are

315
00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:04,720
they blitzers like it sounds like Wilmer was, And that

316
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tells us a lot. And I even helped solve a

317
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few serial bank robbery cases by saying.

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Speaker 8: Let's go back.

319
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Speaker 6: All right, you have ten robberies. Okay, let's go back

320
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,880
to the first one. That's where most of your evidence

321
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,160
is going to be. It may or not be fingerprints

322
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or DNA, but there'll be some other behavioral characteristics. And

323
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in many cases it's the evidence of that scene, a

324
00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:26,759
car stop afterwards, traffic ticket or parking ticket that was

325
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,799
issued that can help solve that particular case. So so yeah,

326
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the first offense of any prime and rate kind of

327
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,480
summarize it nicely, Wash, that's you know, that's gonna that's

328
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,359
when they're kind of experimenting, trying, and they need to

329
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,839
build from there, and whatever works, they they only improve

330
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upon that.

331
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Speaker 5: I'll tell you, guys, And I got to tell you something.

332
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What Jim said is so fricking truth. And I'll tell

333
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,279
you that I remember being on the job in the

334
00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,119
bureau work in a bank robbery case and this guy

335
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,799
had hit fifteen times.

336
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Speaker 4: We go back.

337
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Speaker 5: I said, let's go back to the very first robbery.

338
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We go back to the very first robbery. He lived

339
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,799
two blocks from the very first bank robbery, and then

340
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as he became confident, he moved away from that initial

341
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comfort area that he was in. But most of these guys,

342
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when they do the commit the very first act, they

343
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want to make sure that they have an egress and

344
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they want to be able to get away with it,

345
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otherwise why do it. So they're going to make sure

346
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they're very comfortable and where they're doing it at. So

347
00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:36,839
Jim is so so right in that to be able

348
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to look at the very first area that you want

349
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to look at. There great point.

350
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Speaker 3: Hilly brings us to my next question. I'm so glad

351
00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:48,279
you transitioned to it for me, Ray, thank you. So

352
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,400
with the confirmation of Lorian Powell as another victim connected

353
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,440
to Wilmer via DNA, this extends Wilmer's hunting grounds out.

354
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We know he was hunting on the Colonial Parkway, we

355
00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:01,319
know he was hunting Ragged Island, and now we know

356
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,759
he was hunting across the river in Gloucester. So would

357
00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:08,920
we learn anything more about Wilmer by doing geobgraphic profiling.

358
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,079
Now that we have several areas where we know he

359
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,359
hunted and dumped bodies.

360
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:22,279
Speaker 6: The quick answer is yes, I know the Canadian law

361
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,440
enforcement officer who actually invented geographic profiling and he's taught

362
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,319
it over the years, and uh, it's you know, it's

363
00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:32,200
an it's an arrow in the quiver of investigators. And

364
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:38,480
if you do have three or more incidents events that

365
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:42,240
you can pinpoint to certain geographic areas on a map

366
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:48,000
with GPS and getting you know, longitudinal and latitudinal coordinates

367
00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:50,440
and all, it's it's much easier. They really can come

368
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:56,519
up with a very solid central zone that is considered

369
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the comfort zone of the offender. It may not be

370
00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:02,880
where they're living an exact time of the offenses, but

371
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,079
it certainly could tie into where they work, where they

372
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,640
used to live, or have a strong, you know, familial

373
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,920
connection to that area. Yeah. So geographic profiling has certainly

374
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,799
worked in the past for people I know. And the

375
00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:19,680
simple version of it, you can take an old fashioned

376
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,920
compass that used to have in grade school with a

377
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,440
pencil on one end and you just do a circle,

378
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,400
maybe like the mages and every instant, you do a

379
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,640
circle around it. It's more scientific with the folks who

380
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,799
do this full time, but you really just put all

381
00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:39,160
those circles together and then you shade in the spot

382
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,200
in that it is a conjunction for all of them.

383
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:43,359
And that's a place where you want to spend some

384
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,160
time looking at suspects. And doesn't mean you can go

385
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,039
do or door, but you come up with ten suspects,

386
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,039
one of them lives or used to live in that

387
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,359
shaded area. That's who you prioritize at that point in time.

388
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,799
So I don't know how it would work out for Wilmer.

389
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,400
You know, I don't have all that information here, but

390
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,440
I and we feel, you know, at this time it

391
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,119
will be good experiment if you will, or research for

392
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,119
someone who does that kind of work to in fact

393
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:13,279
test it out with Wilmer and see if that central

394
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,319
area wherever it is, is some area that would be

395
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,359
his base of operations either present or past.

396
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 4: One interesting development with Wilmer. Now he's a waterman and

397
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:31,319
he has a boat which he uses for crabbing, oystering, fishing, etc.

398
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,559
But it's the type of boat that actually has a

399
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,319
very shallow draft. In other words, it doesn't extend that

400
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:42,440
far down into the water. So from what we're hearing

401
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,680
from other watermen is that that boat could actually get

402
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,400
as close in as water that was only a foot

403
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:54,640
and a half or two feet deep, so he could

404
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,519
get quite close to the shore. We think sometimes he's

405
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:02,720
using is very distinctive truck, which was one of the

406
00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:06,359
things that the FBI was looking for at the time

407
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,960
of the first incidents. But now we realize that he's

408
00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:14,200
using we think both the truck and the boat. And

409
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,960
as I mentioned this area, which Kristin knows very well

410
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,400
because she grew up there, there's just a tremendous amount

411
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,200
of water there with all these rivers, creeks and inlets.

412
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,359
So do you think the profiling thing would still work?

413
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,000
Keeping in mind we might actually end up with a

414
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,480
central circle that could be in the middle of the water.

415
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 5: Yes, I do. And you know, with a lot of

416
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,279
the same things that Jim talked about, you have to

417
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,720
remember when you have multiple confirmed crime locations like an

418
00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:51,920
attack site, dump site, sightings of his vehicle, maybe where

419
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,119
he went hunting. When you have that giving you a

420
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,559
pattern of movements and that can point at can point

421
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:05,079
investigators to look for locations that have often been overlooked,

422
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,160
like where he fished storage sheds. I don't know roots

423
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,599
between sites maybe, but knowing that he had ties to

424
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,440
the wadaways and the marina and even his vehicle, I

425
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:25,079
think that that helps refine about his comfort zone and

426
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,279
his mobility. And that's going to the worst thing it's

427
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:32,319
going to do is going to generate investigative leads. It's

428
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,599
going to make you come up with witnesses, owners of

429
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:41,279
specific slips, fuel purchases, all these different things. And this

430
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,200
is a standard technique that investigators would love to be

431
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,160
able to have that information when they use that spatial

432
00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,920
data point information because that I'll tell you, I've seen

433
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,319
it work in real life. I've seen it work when

434
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,720
you have an abduction of a child and we use

435
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:02,759
the same type of thing when we look at offenders.

436
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:04,680
It's a little bit different, but it's the same kind

437
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,759
of context and it really does bring it home and

438
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:12,160
it closes it very quickly for investigators. It really does.

439
00:26:13,519 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: We're just curious, are there other serial offenders that you're

440
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,799
aware of who've used boats to dump bodies? Is this

441
00:26:20,039 --> 00:26:20,960
unique to Wilmer?

442
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 7: No, it's a mob.

443
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:26,599
Speaker 6: I mean the mob would put people in the water.

444
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,039
Who's the guy that killed his pregnant wife in California?

445
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,279
Speaker 3: Scott Peterson.

446
00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, he used a beer sumter there and.

447
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 5: Joe Rifkin, Joe Rifkin did it and he murdered seventeen women,

448
00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:44,559
disposed of several of them in the Long Island waterways Okay,

449
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,440
Hudson River and the East River Jim Okay, Gary Ridgway,

450
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,839
the Green River killer. You look at him.

451
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,079
Speaker 6: Did he have a boat or just put him in

452
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:56,400
the water.

453
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 7: He had boat.

454
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 5: He used a boat from what I understand. Uh, come

455
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,880
victims in rivers and even water filled ravines.

456
00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 6: You know, if you're a if you drive a cement

457
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:12,119
truck for a living, and you're a serial killer, you're

458
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,480
going to put your bodies in a in a fresh

459
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,680
hall where the cement goes on top. If you're a

460
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,880
grave digger, and we've known cases, you sneak a body in,

461
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,680
you know, before the casket goes in the next day.

462
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:26,880
And that's one way if you're a serial killer of

463
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,640
getting rid of that body. If you're if you own

464
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,799
a wood chipping business, I'm not going to get grab

465
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:43,079
holding him out like he's ready to. I'm Fargo, the

466
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,319
movie Bargo. Yeah, So the bottom line is what is

467
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,279
convenient for you, uh, in terms of any sort of

468
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:54,640
method of disposing of a body, you will utilize. And

469
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,240
this guy had a boat and h and he took

470
00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:00,359
it and that was an easy way for him to

471
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,680
do that. And you know, it always helps in committing

472
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,960
a crime. It's one thing killing someone. Leaving the body there,

473
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,880
everyone then knows it's a murder. If you can somehow

474
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,559
dispose of a body and dispose of it, well, right,

475
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:16,559
then could it just be a missing person? And of

476
00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:19,559
course that's always a possibility, and then you have no

477
00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:23,000
and you have no forensic evidence at the scene of

478
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:27,119
the body. So that's that's always the ideal way to

479
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,599
do it. And I think everyone has that on their mind.

480
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,079
And there's been studies. Is it a shallow grave, is

481
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,359
it a deep grave? From the shower of the grave

482
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,079
or the farther way it is from from where the

483
00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:40,519
person was abducted or where they live, could be a

484
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,799
clue whether the offender knew the victim. And there's all

485
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,279
kinds of research going on there. But before we go

486
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:47,559
away from this, I just want to give a shout

487
00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:51,160
out to Kim Rossmo. He's one of our fellow profiles,

488
00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:57,680
profilers in the international the profiling group to which we belong,

489
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,000
and he's the one that came up with the gig

490
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,119
graphic profiling uh many years ago, and there's now software

491
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,000
you can purchase whatich utilizes his formula, and I'm not

492
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,680
sure it's it's authorized and the courts or not, just

493
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,599
like profiling isn't like a polygraph isn't, but it's a

494
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,559
great investigative tool to narrow that suspect pool to uh

495
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,680
uh to uh, you know, try to notify when names

496
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,759
do come up. Hey, this guy matches the profile, the

497
00:29:24,839 --> 00:29:29,000
geographic profile, and he flunked a polygraph. Let's focus on

498
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,960
him and you can't use that evidence in court. But

499
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,920
then you do the evidence after that fact, and you

500
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,680
can get it from there right uh.

501
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 4: In the Small World department, we've worked with another Canadian,

502
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:49,799
Doug McGregor, who studied with Kim Rossmo and went to school,

503
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:53,599
you know, and and trained with him. And he has

504
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,759
talked quite a bit about Kim Rossmo and all the

505
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:00,960
things he's learned from him. And even as we were

506
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,680
talking a few minutes ago, I thought to myself, with

507
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,640
all this new information that Kristin and I are developing,

508
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:13,920
I think another conference call with our friend Doug has

509
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,000
probably called for. I know he listens to Mind over Murder,

510
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:19,799
so he may hear it talking about him, but in

511
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:21,519
a nice way, you know.

512
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:23,559
Speaker 5: I just want to add one thing to what Jim

513
00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:27,440
said before you go on, Christen, that Wilmer's use of

514
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:32,400
his commercial fishing boat and access to multi marinas, you know,

515
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:35,359
kind of ties into the disposal areas that he had

516
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,920
in these waterways. I mean, look, he's using it for

517
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,680
a number of different reasons. Many offenders have. Water is

518
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,759
use of destroy trace evidence. A lot of times, the

519
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:51,720
moving currents have a tendency to disperse or even relocate remains.

520
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,440
And Bill, when you said that he was able to

521
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,680
get into sponse at one or two feet of water,

522
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,759
it leaves me say, well, yes, he has access to

523
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:06,200
isolated areas that are that are inaccessible by anybody else,

524
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,359
which make perfect dump sites. You know, right, he's familiar,

525
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:13,079
he's familiar with this, and he's familiar with those areas,

526
00:31:13,079 --> 00:31:14,279
which reduces his risk.

527
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,759
Speaker 4: And interestingly, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is one of three brothers.

528
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,680
His older brother William Keith Wilmer, who goes by Keith

529
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,160
his middle name. He died at the end of April.

530
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,319
The older brother and Allan, the middle brother, are also

531
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:43,279
suspected in another homicide of a woman from Lancaster County, Virginia,

532
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:48,160
where they grew up. A body was found. The victim's

533
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,240
name is Mary Keyser Harding, and she was found in

534
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:55,079
the Rappahannock River and the two Wilmer brothers are longtime

535
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,319
suspects in that murder, and they believe that she was

536
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,960
raped and her body was placed in the water and

537
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,039
weighted down with chains and weights of a type that

538
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,240
a fisherman or oysterman waterman would use. Now that case

539
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:18,039
remains unsolved to this day, but the Wilmer's names had

540
00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:27,920
been mentioned repeatedly as potential suspects in that case as well. Yeah, right, so.

541
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,559
Speaker 3: They they they do have they do have kids, and

542
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,599
actually their family has been nothing but helpful. Two investigators

543
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:42,680
into us, they say, all in the family that was

544
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:43,880
naming a show, right.

545
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, to be fair to the kids, they were quite

546
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,200
young when all of this horrible stuff was going on.

547
00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:58,440
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had a daughter and a son,

548
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,480
and I think they were eight and ten at the

549
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:03,599
time of the Colonial Parkway murders, and as Kristen says,

550
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:10,559
they are shocked by this, and they the families told

551
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:14,400
me directly that they almost feel like there were two

552
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,799
Alan Wilmers. There was the man that they knew mostly

553
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,359
up in Lancaster, Virginia, where he's from, and then as

554
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,079
they put it down in Hampton, which is the area

555
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:31,480
where the Colonial Parkway murders took place, it's almost like

556
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,759
following a divorce from his wife, he moved down to

557
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,000
the Peninsula area of Virginia and had much less contact

558
00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,240
with his family. But they've said it almost feels like

559
00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:50,759
there's two Allans. Yeah, very much.

560
00:33:50,799 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean they've they've been wonderful about helping

561
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,480
and collaborating with law enforcement, in with us, and they're

562
00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:16,800
horrified because they had no idea. So, you know, we

563
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,719
we've been I think, really fortunate that they have been

564
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,639
so cooperative, you know, DNA and everything else. But it's

565
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,400
it's so it's so hard to think that. I think

566
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,280
in a lot of ways they're victims too in this.

567
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 5: You're right that they are their secondary victims. Absolutely.

568
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,559
Speaker 4: One thing we're wondering about this movement back and forth

569
00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:46,840
where Wilmer is killing couples clearly, but he's also attacking individuals.

570
00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:52,079
Is there anything to that? Is that more opportunistic?

571
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 8: Well, you know, and he's in other words, we think

572
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,280
he's always looking for victims and made me he enjoys

573
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,440
the challenge of attacking a couple, but then he'll shift

574
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,519
over if there's an opportunity to attack a single woman.

575
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 4: Does that any of that make sense?

576
00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 6: You know, you have to ask with a guy like this,

577
00:35:18,119 --> 00:35:20,400
And I'm not sure how much you know about his

578
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,880
drug or alcoholic intake. You know, was he a drug

579
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,760
abuser or alcoholic? And would depending on his level of

580
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,320
intoxication or or being high, would that somehow lower his

581
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,039
inhibitions even more than they normally are? Would he take

582
00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:40,000
more chances and going after you know, two people or

583
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,079
as opposed to one? And then you know maybe a

584
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:44,639
man in there too, uh? You know, is he a

585
00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:50,039
situational offender, a preferential offender, an opportunistic offender? And that's

586
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:52,920
the three you know, basic kind of categories we see

587
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,639
over the years, and non preferential offenders in there too,

588
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,199
where they just you know, it's an old lady one day,

589
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:04,639
a young kid the next, someone in the middle other times.

590
00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:08,480
But so I think with Wilmer, from what I'm hearing,

591
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:11,840
it seems like if the opportunity present itself and he

592
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,119
had a little mental checklist, probably wasn't in writing or

593
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:17,519
a tap of paper. But if you know dark enough,

594
00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:24,159
quiet enough, you know remote enough, no other you know,

595
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:27,559
witnesses around or potential witnesses, and the victims seemed to

596
00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,440
match up, you know, his kind of victim. Whatever that means,

597
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,599
he was going to go for it. He'll take his chances.

598
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,079
I'll tell you what any offender and any person should

599
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:40,880
know this. If you have the element of surprise as

600
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,360
an offender on your side, that's a big, big advantage.

601
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,239
Plus brings some kind of weapon with you, or at

602
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,800
least have you know, the hand and arm strength that

603
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,079
you can choke someone if you have to. You know

604
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:57,039
that that does a lot, and that element of surprise

605
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,639
really opens the door. And you know he may have

606
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,000
known how to I remember, as a plane closed police officer,

607
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,199
we're going to make an arrest on someone sitting in

608
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:08,360
their car, and you know how to look out your rear.

609
00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:11,079
You know, when you're a driver, you look straight back,

610
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:13,800
and you're outside mirror, and you can look in your

611
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,199
interior mirror. And we knew certain angles to approach the car,

612
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,679
so this guy couldn't see us walking up. I guarantee you.

613
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,840
As Wilmer progressed as he evolved, he knew and I

614
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,639
know it was dark and they may be doing something

615
00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:29,039
else in the car at the time, but he still

616
00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:32,440
would know how to approach that car, most likely from behind.

617
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,960
It's just the right angle. And whether he would open

618
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,760
the door, smash it in, however he would get in,

619
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,119
pretend he's someone else. He's lost. I don't know exactly

620
00:37:41,159 --> 00:37:43,440
what means. You know, he would use to get into

621
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,800
these cars and access these victims. But it could just depend.

622
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,000
And he was you know, no one's saying he's a

623
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:52,760
dumb guy. And I don't know what his educational level was,

624
00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:58,079
but he certainly had hunting smarts and street smarts, if

625
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:01,039
you will, even if applied into way you know, more

626
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:06,960
rural or wooded or even aquatic area, and he just

627
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:10,239
knew how to succeed. He was he was one of

628
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,320
the best at what he did. And I hate paying

629
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,079
anyone a compliment like this, but we we have to

630
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:16,159
you know, say what it was.

631
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,159
Speaker 9: And one of the reasons why Wilmer moved on to

632
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,000
the FBI's radar in nineteen eighty eight was when they

633
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:26,440
were investigating the disappearance of one of these couples.

634
00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: In reaching out to couples that were parking along the

635
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,400
Colonial Parkway, which is very beautiful but lonely, no lights,

636
00:38:36,599 --> 00:38:41,119
no no businesses. It's designed to be, to be this

637
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,960
riven of perfect beautiful parkland along these rivers. A number

638
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,199
of couples said that a man matching Wilmer's description and

639
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:58,000
driving Wilmer's extremely distinctive truck was kind of when you

640
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:02,719
said blitz attack a minute ago. It sounded like that.

641
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,679
He would suddenly appear at the window, and he was

642
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,480
very aggressive, and he would demand driver's licenses, and he

643
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,199
would tell them you don't belong here, it's dangerous here,

644
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,480
let me see your driver's license. He wasn't dressed as

645
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:23,159
a cop, but he behaved like a police officer or

646
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,079
law enforcement officer would, and many of these couples said

647
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:31,639
they complied, they gave him their driver's licenses. Interestingly, he

648
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,320
did not ask for registrations. He only asked for driver's licenses.

649
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:43,760
And they often gave them gave their driver's licenses up

650
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,280
to Wilmer, and then he would come back later. Now,

651
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,519
obviously these couples survived, otherwise we wouldn't have heard their stories.

652
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,840
But this happened multiple times. Do you think he was

653
00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:02,599
kind of escalating, taking steps closer to the point where

654
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:08,719
he would actually be willing to engage and hurt these people,

655
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,199
or why would there be so many reports of a

656
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,599
similar man driving a similar vehicle aggressively approaching couples but

657
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:20,960
then not harming them.

658
00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 5: You know, I think Wilmer and you look at this

659
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:29,880
type of offender, he had both a sexual and a

660
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,199
control based motive. I maybe not. I don't believe every

661
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,800
single person he came in contact with he killed. I

662
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,599
think there's probably some people early on that were test

663
00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:45,679
stummies and that he did some of those things where

664
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,800
you were able to get this information. But you have

665
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:54,320
to understand when his gear is towards women, and he's

666
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,320
principally seeking opportunities to assess women, and that could be

667
00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:01,719
either women that are alone or women that are with

668
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,519
a partner. You know, when you target couples, it can

669
00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:08,199
also be a pragmatic choice on the part of the

670
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,639
offender on Wimer's part, like you'll go to places like

671
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,199
lovers lanes, which would be something very similar to what

672
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,239
you just described. And some like offenders like Jim was

673
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,719
talking about, are very selective. They have a preference that's driven,

674
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,960
and others are opportunity opportunistic, but they all act when

675
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,039
the situation matches their needs. And those names can be

676
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:39,559
the time, the location, the victim, and the vulnerability of

677
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:40,199
that victim.

678
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 4: Uh.

679
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,519
Speaker 5: The pattern that you kind of talked about the couples

680
00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:49,599
and individuals with the sexual assaults concentrated on women suggest

681
00:41:50,079 --> 00:41:56,039
a core sexual slash control motivation, uh, combined with opportunity

682
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,800
opportunistic uh selections.

683
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: Uh in this Yeah, I'm taking notes frantically here.

684
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

685
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 6: And and I do remember I do I have read,

686
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,199
of course enough about this case in our earlier conversations.

687
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,119
Thanks for reminding me though, of of him being you know,

688
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:23,079
uh uh you know, foe police officer here or some

689
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,199
kind of you know, ranger or whatever he was pretending

690
00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:27,480
to be. But yeah, he's sizing these people up. That's

691
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,239
the whole control thing right there too, even if he's

692
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,679
not uh uh you know, falling through and you know,

693
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,440
actually abducting these people or or you know, holding them,

694
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,599
you know, in his in his possession and then killing them.

695
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,280
So but that was a and who knows what he

696
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,519
did afterwards in the privacy of his truck. If he's

697
00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:49,400
driving that truck up as close as he did, that was,

698
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,920
I know, is very distinctive. And it's coloring and and

699
00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:55,559
uh and words and numbers on the side or the back.

700
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,360
And he said, well, I'm not gonna uh, I'm not

701
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,000
gonna do anything bad to these people, just gonna go

702
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:02,559
up and kind of play with him. I remember the teenager.

703
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:04,079
Speaker 7: I don't think I.

704
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 6: Put this in my first book, but I do remember going.

705
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,480
I do remember going to a lover's lane in Philadelphia

706
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:15,280
with a young lady and and nothing heavy duty, but

707
00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:19,400
I'll never forget a guy's head up and he's looking

708
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,119
right in the window at us. Yeah, and and this

709
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:27,880
is it was, you know, spring or summer. What was

710
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,320
the girl's lovers lane? There were cars not too far away.

711
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 10: Listen, Well, I agree, And the guy who stuck his

712
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,000
head in my window and I said, get the f

713
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:50,559
out of here.

714
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 7: Uh.

715
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 6: But and if he uh, if he remembers that part,

716
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:57,599
so if he's listening. But I was a cop later on,

717
00:43:57,639 --> 00:44:01,280
and there were guys who would we would catch peeping

718
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,280
tom's going into and looking for young equipmen. They wouldn't

719
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,679
always be there to hurt them kill them, but they

720
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,800
got their jolly's just looking in car windows. And that

721
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,639
could be like an early sort of a gateway activity.

722
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,480
But it sounds like Wilma was already killing at that point,

723
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,519
but just kind of regressing at some point and then

724
00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:25,360
and and trying to follow through just this, you know,

725
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,440
kind of the fun thing. So even if the police

726
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,320
officer pulled him over something, well, it wouldn't be that

727
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,000
big of a deal. He's just talking to people, making

728
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:35,559
sure to tell them, you know, to stay safe whatever.

729
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,960
But it's certainly high risk behavior on his part, and

730
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,679
he certainly made sure that there wouldn't be too many

731
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:44,400
other people around to see him even doing these things,

732
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,559
which are I'm not sure illegal. If he doesn't identify

733
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:51,199
themself as a law enforcement alter that's illegal. Whether he

734
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,639
had a fake badge or some kind of id. He

735
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,559
was dressed like a regular guy, you said, maybe like

736
00:44:56,599 --> 00:44:59,719
even a waterman, and and that wouldn't have been very

737
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:04,519
much uh uh, you know, impressive upon a person seeing him.

738
00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:06,679
So he just had an authority battle. Like I said,

739
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,159
he was really good at what he did and he

740
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,920
knew how to you know, bring in his personality and

741
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,280
his demeanor to to to act of the role.

742
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 5: And Jim and Jim I had as before you go, Bill,

743
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,119
I have to ask a book one of your four

744
00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,440
book episode, you talked about a guy in the park.

745
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,920
Is there any connection between the guy in the park

746
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,920
with you and this guy that came up ah to

747
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:33,519
the windows.

748
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 7: I don't, I don't know.

749
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:41,119
Speaker 5: I didn't know his name, Jim. I wasn't going to

750
00:45:41,159 --> 00:45:41,719
mention his name.

751
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:42,119
Speaker 6: Harry.

752
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 5: I thought, you want to mention names. If you didn't

753
00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:46,199
his name, you got to give us a girlfriend's name.

754
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 6: Well, I'm not going to give them to tell or

755
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,480
park and tell. But uh no, hack off. Harry used

756
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,400
to walk through these woods. I was grew up in

757
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,920
Philly in the Islany neighborhood. Took any Creek Parks park

758
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:09,039
and it was urban area, but you know, a couple

759
00:46:09,079 --> 00:46:11,320
of acres of woods and we heard this rumor about

760
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,000
this guy walked around naked. I was there with my

761
00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:16,320
three buddies, two buddies and we're like eleven and twelve,

762
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,119
and it was like the last day of school, you know, afterwards,

763
00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:22,039
and here comes this naked guy. Hey, what are you

764
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:24,519
guys doing? And we kind of looked at each other

765
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,519
huh and and he didn't try anything with us. But

766
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:31,960
years later I just wondered, you know, what was this

767
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,880
guy up to? Where were his play He wasn't carrying

768
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,000
his clothes. He must have taken them off and hid

769
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:39,480
them somewhere. He must have driven there, so anyway, it

770
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,480
probably would have been eight years later ray that I

771
00:46:42,519 --> 00:46:45,960
was in another park, more of a lover's lane, and

772
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,000
I was hack off. I didn't recognize him, so hack off,

773
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:52,559
if you're out of there, hack off.

774
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 4: I love. I loved the ed guy challenging the three kids.

775
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,960
What are you doing here? And he's standing there nude.

776
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,039
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. Well then at one point he said, I

777
00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:08,599
bet you I'm bigger than you guys, And he was

778
00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:11,039
like a thirty to thirty five year old guy, and

779
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:14,159
he probably was. Back then we didn't really care and

780
00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:17,320
we weren't about to show him or test him. But

781
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,199
finally he just walked away. But I know, I know,

782
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:21,599
I had a stick in my hand if he was

783
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,800
gonna come at me and my buddies. They had like

784
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,559
a rock they picked up, but he stayed like at away,

785
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:29,440
walked around naked, and then just took off. So that

786
00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:32,360
was a weirder, weirder element of my life. And Ray

787
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,199
thanks for bringing that up. It was in my book

788
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:36,400
and what the hell is it mean? Didn't want and

789
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,119
now I got involved in investigating these guys later on,

790
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,000
and whoever knows that that was a gateway offence for

791
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,599
who he was affectionately known hack Off Harry.

792
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 7: But that's where you guys, if you guys remembered, it

793
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,719
was an episode on Seinfeld but when he was arrested

794
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,519
as a serial killer and the cop said something about

795
00:47:57,519 --> 00:47:58,360
the guy in the park.

796
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, you have to see it. If you know, if

797
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,119
the listeners are listening, there is an episode. Jim might think,

798
00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:07,639
you know what episode. I'm a Seinfeld fan. If you

799
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,320
listen to the episode, Seinfeld's being questioned by the detective

800
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,400
about being a serial killer. He talks about the guy

801
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,519
in the park having something in his pants for him

802
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,199
and Seinfeld is the same thing. And when he finally

803
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,559
lets him go, Seinfeld said, how'd you know about the

804
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:25,360
guy in the park? And that's they got that from

805
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:26,159
me in Jim's book.

806
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 6: I'll take credit and I'll come.

807
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:40,079
Speaker 3: So do we have time for one more question?

808
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 7: Sure?

809
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 3: Okay, So we know that Wilmer killed and dumped bodies

810
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,119
in or near water until nineteen eighty eight, but he

811
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,079
was questioned by the FBI and the disappearance of Keith

812
00:48:51,119 --> 00:48:54,800
Colin Cassandra Haley in April of that year, and after

813
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,239
that his next set of victims were killed and dumped

814
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,519
away from the water. Might he have changed his dumb

815
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:02,039
sites in response.

816
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 5: To being looked at by the FBI?

817
00:49:08,039 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 4: Sure?

818
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,599
Speaker 3: Might he have changed these disposal sites in response to

819
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:14,000
being looked at by the FBI?

820
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 6: Yes, And we're not going to edit it out, but

821
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,639
years ago, try to get away from the word, right

822
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,159
dump because as it's like trash or something you're talking about.

823
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:29,840
So you you had no bad intentions there, and Bill,

824
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,760
you certainly didn't. But I understand the gist of your question.

825
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:39,280
And and certainly he altered his Moh, no surprise there

826
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,840
at all for a guy who still had this need

827
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,480
driven behavior. And that's what we're remembering here. You know,

828
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:50,159
most of us, the four of us on this crossover podcast,

829
00:49:50,519 --> 00:49:53,119
and certainly the audience. We all have need driven behaviors.

830
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,280
We have to breathe and neat, and of course there's

831
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,760
other bodily functions we take care of. But none of us,

832
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,920
none of us necessarily are can trolled by these uh

833
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,239
in some cases sexually sadistic activities that obviously someone like

834
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,559
Wilmer had, so he was he was the FBI talked

835
00:50:11,559 --> 00:50:14,639
to him, He obviously didn't feel all that concerned, all

836
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:17,440
that scared. They didn't think or he didn't think they

837
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,960
had enough on him, and he said, all right, well

838
00:50:20,599 --> 00:50:23,039
they think i'm this guy, they think the body's here.

839
00:50:23,519 --> 00:50:26,159
Well I'm going to alter my m O. His signature

840
00:50:26,199 --> 00:50:29,320
didn't change all that much. I'm sure he still had

841
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,840
that behavioral activity with these women and what he did

842
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,280
with them and to them, but it wasn't all that

843
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,519
hard for him to say, you know what, I'm I'm

844
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:42,320
smarter than these FBI guys. I'm just going to move

845
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,519
from you know, Zone A to over here to you

846
00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:47,679
know Zone B or C or D whatever he calls it,

847
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,480
and I'm still going to do my thing and they're

848
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,280
not going to put two and two together. So that

849
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,599
doesn't surprise me at all. A guy who has this

850
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,920
many kills and rapes under his belt. He couldn't just

851
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,639
stop with a warning. Ted Kaczynski his composite was a sketch,

852
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:10,800
went out after his I think tenth bombing and and

853
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,239
and he went dark for seven years. I mean, we

854
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,079
didn't know his name back then. It was the bomber.

855
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:16,960
And then all of a sudden he come back with

856
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,079
a vengeance in ninety three. So his signature behavior didn't change.

857
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,440
He's still wanted to send these bombs to these representative targets,

858
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,119
but his mo altered where he took seven years off

859
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,159
and the bombs actually had seven years of rest. They

860
00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:34,920
were even stronger and more lethal after the fact. So

861
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:38,079
BTK took time off. It looks like he was going

862
00:51:38,159 --> 00:51:40,400
to come back and maybe do some more killings, but

863
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:43,039
he made a mistake with a computer disc whatever that

864
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,000
the police could read some information on it. So yeah,

865
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:50,320
these guys take time off, but they can and or

866
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:51,639
they can alter their behavior.

867
00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 5: And case even closer to both Jim and I than

868
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,760
any other ones he talked about was about a bank

869
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,239
robber Carl gu Gaigean and I wrote a book on it.

870
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,760
Jim and I worked the case together and Ggaigion we

871
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,159
believe was involved in shooting a police officer in nineteen

872
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:18,199
eighty two, and Bank Groby stopped for six years, and

873
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,199
then they began back up in eighty eight. And when

874
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,119
we asked Gagaigon why he did it, he says, I

875
00:52:24,159 --> 00:52:26,480
just needed a break. I got tired. But it just

876
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:29,320
so happened. They stopped right when the police officer was killed.

877
00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:31,920
Police officer shot, he wasn't killed.

878
00:52:33,639 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 4: H oh.

879
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 5: So he survived for about thirty eight years and he

880
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:40,480
died and then they claimed his death to be a

881
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,280
homicide thirty eight years later as a result of the

882
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,280
buld that was lodged into the carotid artery. I was

883
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,519
up in Columbia, Pennsylvania, and you know, they believed that

884
00:52:50,679 --> 00:52:53,239
he was tied into it, but they were never able

885
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,840
to tie him in with any forensic evidence, and he's

886
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,719
denied it the whole time. But Jim and I both

887
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:03,199
feel pretty confident about that. But you know, it's well documented,

888
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,440
Like we were telling you about these type of vendors

889
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,039
that switched tactics. You know, they moved their sites further

890
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,440
from their prior sites, they changed vehicles, they changed disposal methods.

891
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,920
They take greater precautions, you know, and Bill will help

892
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,639
me with this. Was Wilmor surveilled and searched in nineteen

893
00:53:23,679 --> 00:53:24,079
eighty eight.

894
00:53:25,679 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 4: Yes, he was extensively. They searched his home, his truck.

895
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:34,920
They found a lot of evidence that they thought they

896
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,119
were going to be able to tie him into the murders.

897
00:53:37,159 --> 00:53:42,039
But for whatever reason, after receiving two polygraphs, he passed

898
00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:46,400
one and one was inconclusive. But I even tracked down

899
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,119
the retired polygraph examiner. He told me flat out we

900
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:54,400
should have never let that guy go. So they were really,

901
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,159
really close, and the two agents whom my father knew

902
00:53:59,639 --> 00:54:02,519
that were working the case, they were convinced they had

903
00:54:02,559 --> 00:54:05,920
the right die ultimately slipped through their hands.

904
00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 5: Well, it's it's not unusual for uh, someone that has

905
00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:17,880
been searched, interviewed, as you just said to, you know,

906
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:21,639
change the sequence along what they're doing. But I think

907
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,719
it's it's important for us also to be cautious when

908
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,639
we talk about the sequence because there could be other

909
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:30,920
factors too, and I don't want to don't want to

910
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,239
exclude those factors. Sometimes opportunity, sometimes the fantasy of the

911
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,239
offender could be evolving, uh, And sometimes it's just logistics,

912
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,679
but a lot of times when you are contacted by

913
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,440
law enforcement, it's a plausible trigger for a tactical shift

914
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,639
in what you're doing. Absolutely mm hmm.

915
00:54:55,079 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 6: Right, And and you know psychologically how these people think,

916
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:09,239
what better way to prove you're not the killer than,

917
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,920
after being confronted by police, FBI law enforcement to go

918
00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:18,039
out and commit yet another crime because you were going

919
00:55:18,119 --> 00:55:20,239
to be thinking, they get to, hey, you guys just

920
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,039
talked to me, you know, last week, last month, a

921
00:55:22,119 --> 00:55:25,400
year ago, I would how why would you think I

922
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,400
would go out do that? That was like almost like

923
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,480
a plausible deniability they could add in there, and even

924
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:34,039
the FBI themselves. I can almost see another murder ray.

925
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:36,679
But we talked to that guy just you know, six

926
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:38,719
months ago. Do you really think and I don't know

927
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:40,239
if you would do that or not. You'd still have

928
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,599
to keep them in the suspect pool naturally, but apparently

929
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:49,360
at least at least he wasn't in in this particular case,

930
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,599
and so missed opportunities here for including Bill, what you

931
00:55:52,599 --> 00:55:55,239
said about the polygraph examiner and how they could have

932
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,519
pushed that a little bit more. Uh with this guy.

933
00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:01,599
But you know, again. We said this last, you know,

934
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,480
a year or two ago, when we were on with

935
00:56:03,519 --> 00:56:07,280
you about Wilmer. Whatever you want to say about his

936
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,920
education and his cultural upbringing, all that stuff maybe made lacking,

937
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,920
but boy, he had a sense of survival. He had

938
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,079
a sense of street smarts would smarts if you want

939
00:56:18,119 --> 00:56:22,239
to call them, or you know, waterline, waterfront smart.

940
00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 5: I think he knew how to succeed in that environment,

941
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:29,000
in that environment where he was, I don't know how

942
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,559
he would have fared outside of that environment. And in

943
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:34,280
that environment he was second to none.

944
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 4: I agree with Jimmy, Yeah right, he was.

945
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,159
Speaker 6: And you put him in the middle of a you know,

946
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,159
you know Brooklyn or or you know, south side of Chicago,

947
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,519
he wouldn't do very well. I'm just saying. As a

948
00:56:49,559 --> 00:56:52,679
serial killer, but in this particular, this was his on

949
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,280
the ground, and he knew left from right and up

950
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:00,679
from down, and he knew his victims and in terms

951
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,800
of you know, who were the likely ones that he

952
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:08,440
could with whom he could succeed in killing and assaulting otherwise,

953
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:15,199
And and that's his legacy. And he was a tough

954
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:21,639
guy to catch in during his lifetime. And thank goodness

955
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:26,199
for the advent of DNA analysis over the last you know,

956
00:57:26,239 --> 00:57:30,239
twenty twenty five years, that we could start really closing

957
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,719
these cases and giving some sort of closure to family

958
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,159
members such as Bill and I know he was on

959
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:39,639
the radar even before that, but now we have some

960
00:57:39,679 --> 00:57:42,679
conclusive information here, So Bill ahead.

961
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,119
Speaker 5: But yeah, one question for you.

962
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,119
Speaker 6: Guys, knew what he was doing and how to do it?

963
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:49,199
Speaker 5: I know you said that. You know, Wilmer's been dead

964
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:53,000
for the last eight years twenty seventeen. What about his brothers?

965
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:54,599
Are either of them alive?

966
00:57:56,159 --> 00:58:00,119
Speaker 4: They're both dead. One brother, the older brother, Keith that

967
00:58:00,159 --> 00:58:03,679
we mentioned earlier, he died at the end of April

968
00:58:03,719 --> 00:58:08,079
twenty twenty five. Oddly, they had a younger brother, Timothy,

969
00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:11,199
who died and we've had a real hard time pinning

970
00:58:11,239 --> 00:58:15,719
this down. He died under kind of mysterious circumstances. It

971
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,480
may have been a suicide. Almost a year to the

972
00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:25,280
day after the middle brother, Alan, our suspect died. Allan

973
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:31,559
Wade Wilmer Senior died of natural causes at his home

974
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,719
up in Lancaster County. He was kind of estranged from

975
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:38,679
his family. His body wasn't found for about a month. Interestingly,

976
00:58:39,519 --> 00:58:44,679
his younger brother died we think of a suicide almost

977
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:50,000
exactly a year to the day. So all three brothers, Keith,

978
00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:55,920
the oldest, Alan, and then Timothy Timoth are all gone.

979
00:58:55,679 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 11: Now, okay with them, they took.

980
00:59:06,639 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 4: A lot of information without question.

981
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 6: Agreed with them no doubt.

982
00:59:10,039 --> 00:59:12,639
Speaker 3: Thank you both so much.

983
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Chris. Thank you guys so.

984
00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: Much for helping us out with this. We we love

985
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,239
being able to put these questions to people that we

986
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,960
know will help us get answers, especially because our current

987
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,119
case agents are being a little less than forthcoming with information.

988
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,360
So we're glad to have two former FBI guys who

989
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,119
are willing to talk to us and help us kind

990
00:59:35,119 --> 00:59:36,639
of sort these things out for ourselves.

991
00:59:36,639 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: We really appreciate the both of you.

992
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:40,679
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

993
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,159
Speaker 6: Well, you're welcome, and I will say thank you for

994
00:59:47,199 --> 00:59:50,840
appearing on this live episode of Cold Red and uh

995
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,440
it'll be recorded versions will be out there too, So

996
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,480
I'll sign us out and just say everyone thanks for listening.

997
00:59:58,119 --> 01:00:02,360
Like and subscribe to both Mind Over Murder and Cold

998
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,920
Red and Sena's comments if you'd like, And thanks to

999
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,320
our producers. Matt McLachlan, Matt Robinson. Our music producer Rick Shilling.

1000
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:16,320
I'll be having Thanksgiving dinner with tomorrow and tune in

1001
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,920
next time for mind Over Murder, but also Cold Red.

1002
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:22,760
Take care everyone, see you next time.

1003
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1004
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:36,840
Another Dog Productions.

1005
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,719
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1006
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:43,480
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1007
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:46,159
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1008
01:00:46,719 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

1009
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,559
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1010
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1011
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1012
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Speaker 2: And finally, you and follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1013
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:03,719
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1014
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:07,119
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