Speaker 1: Welcome to the deep dive. You know, think about the
Speaker 1: early vision for cyberspace. It was incredibly optimistic. Wasn't it
Speaker 1: a space to boost human interaction, help us work smarter,
Speaker 1: make decisions, connect the entire world?
Speaker 2: Absolutely a truly evolutionary idea.
Speaker 1: But here's the twist, and it's a big one. That
Speaker 1: same human ingenuity, the aggressive part of it, Well, it
Speaker 1: transformed this amazing invention into essentially a new battlefield.
Speaker 2: And that led to the development of what we now
Speaker 2: call cyber arms, right, and that whole transformation is exactly
Speaker 2: what we're diving into today. We're going to trace this
Speaker 2: really astonishing journey. It starts with things that seemed almost
Speaker 2: like pranks, you know, harmless malicious castus well, relatively harmless
Speaker 2: back then, but it evolved into these incredibly sophisticated cyber
Speaker 2: weapons we see now, and it's all about the dual
Speaker 2: nature of these digital tools, how they can defend but
Speaker 2: also cause well devastating offense. The implications for global security
Speaker 2: are critical, sometimes pretty settling.
Speaker 1: It feels like the tech moves so fast.
Speaker 2: It really does. What's striking is just how quickly the
Speaker 2: technology seems to outpace our ethics, our values, our ability
Speaker 2: to set clear rules in this.
Speaker 1: Domain, like we're always playing catch up. So to really
Speaker 1: get our heads around this complex evolution from those first
Speaker 1: digital annoyances to nation state threats, the tools, the escalating dangers,
Speaker 1: and what the world's trying to do about it. We've
Speaker 1: pulled together a whole stack of sources for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots to untack.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's peel back the layers. So when we talk
Speaker 1: about the very start of cyber arms, it sounds almost
Speaker 1: quaint now, doesn't it, Thinking that something like a digital school.
Speaker 2: Prank I'll be sending apples bouncing across someone's screen.
Speaker 1: Exactly, that could somehow morph into something capable of crippling
Speaker 1: a nation's infrastructure. But our sources point way back to
Speaker 1: elk Clunter in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty two, spread by floppy disc.
Speaker 1: By floppy disc, it copied itself into the boot sector.
Speaker 1: Then just a year Latereten three, we get the first
Speaker 1: quote professionally designed virus from a university.
Speaker 2: Experiment, and that's where the term computer virus was formally introduced.
Speaker 2: Really and that early evolution you mentioned elk Cloner, But
Speaker 2: think about viruses like whale that one really showed this
Speaker 2: fundamental cybersecurity problem. It's always a reactive battle. Oh so, well,
Speaker 2: the whale virus could actually mutate, It could rewrite its
Speaker 2: own instructions, making it incredibly hard to track using traditional methods.
Speaker 1: So the old anti virus way looking for a fixed pattern,
Speaker 1: a known signature.
Speaker 2: Exactly, that became obsolete almost immediately because these things could
Speaker 2: change their own code, you know, always one step ahead.
Speaker 2: It became this constant game of digital cat and mouse.
Speaker 1: And then the whole game just fundamentally shifted. The Internet
Speaker 1: arrives in ninety one, spreads.
Speaker 2: Everywhere into homes, offices.
Speaker 1: And suddenly email and electronic documents are the new prime targets.
Speaker 1: Forget floppy discs.
Speaker 2: They became the most profitable target for malware, as our
Speaker 2: sources put it.
Speaker 1: And then we saw this new type right environmental macroviruses
Speaker 1: like concept in the late nineties.
Speaker 2: Ah yes, concept that was disruptive because it wasn't stuck
Speaker 2: on one type of computer. It could jump between different
Speaker 2: operating systems, made it much harder to contain.
Speaker 1: And this progression, it wasn't just theoretical, It led directly
Speaker 1: to major real world incidents.
Speaker 2: Didn't it absolutely stark examples of our vulnerabilities. Think back
Speaker 2: to two thousand and seven, the attack on Estonia, the
Speaker 2: BDS attack, right, the distributed denial of service not just
Speaker 2: an annoyance, it was a full on assault. Took down
Speaker 2: government banking media services for three weeks.
Speaker 1: Caused by botnets, right, just overwhelming their systems.
Speaker 2: Massive botanets, flooding them with automated requests. Now, later it
Speaker 2: was characterized more as a cyber dispute than a full
Speaker 2: cyber war, but honestly it exposed a massive national vulnerability.
Speaker 2: It signaled a new era.
Speaker 1: And if Estonia showed the potential for disruption, twenty ten
Speaker 1: brought something else, entirely stuck Snitt. Ah.
Speaker 2: Stuck Snitt often called the first cyber weapon of do
Speaker 2: you have political significance?
Speaker 1: What made it so chilling was its precision, its target,
Speaker 1: Iran's Naden's nuclear facility.
Speaker 2: And crucially it got in even without an Internet connection.
Speaker 1: That's the mind bending part.
Speaker 2: How by manipulating Siemens plc's those programmable logic controllers, the
Speaker 2: sort of digital brains running the industrial machinery, to do
Speaker 2: what exactly, To subtlely make the centrifuges the ones enriching
Speaker 2: uranium basically self destruct over time, slow insidious sabotage.
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. In building on that kind of capability, we
Speaker 1: then saw ransomware just explode.
Speaker 2: Didn't we Oh, absolutely a terrifying evolution. In twenty sixteen
Speaker 2: you had Lockey dozens of strains infecting millions of computers,
Speaker 2: especially in Europe, at one point heading over five thousand
Speaker 2: machines an hour in Germany alone hour.
Speaker 1: That's staggering.
Speaker 2: And then twenty seventeen brought WannaCry that went.
Speaker 1: Global, leveraging that Eternal Blue vulnerability.
Speaker 2: Exactly, which was leaked from reportedly from a US intelligence
Speaker 2: age andcies cyber arsenal. That single attack hit over three
Speaker 2: hundred thousand systems worldwide, massive disruption, real chaos.
Speaker 1: So this whole history it really hammers home this duality
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2: Right, these tools, they can be used for defense and offense,
Speaker 2: whether it's software or a technique. It's the same toolkit offense.
Speaker 1: Which creates this environment where they can spread easily be misused.
Speaker 2: Precisely, the general accessibility makes it surprisingly easy from malicious
Speaker 2: actors anyone, from loan hackers to organized groups, even nation
Speaker 2: states to get their hands on and launch these cyber arms.
Speaker 1: Okay, So understanding that duality, that accessibility, it leads to
Speaker 1: the next question, how do these attacks actually happen. Let's
Speaker 1: let's unpack the stages of a full scale operation, right.
Speaker 2: It usually starts with reconnaissance.
Speaker 1: Intel gathering exactly.
Speaker 2: Attackers collect info on their targets, physical locations, network entry points,
Speaker 2: system weaknesses, you name it, our sources even mentioned long
Speaker 2: term recon by.
Speaker 1: Governments like surveillance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, things like analyzing telephone comms, voiceover IP calls, collecting
Speaker 2: metadata on network traffic patterns over time, building a picture.
Speaker 1: Okay, recon first.
Speaker 2: Then what then comes the breach and exploitation phase. This
Speaker 2: is where they actively use vulnerabilities flaws in operating systems,
Speaker 2: applications code to get unauthorized access.
Speaker 1: And there are different kinds of exploits, right.
Speaker 2: We distinguish between remote exploits where they don't need prior access,
Speaker 2: and local exploits where they do. For example, maybe they
Speaker 2: exploit a web application flaw to get a foothold like
Speaker 2: low level access exactly. But then maybe they exploit something deeper,
Speaker 2: like a flaw in a file sharing protocol like SMB
Speaker 2: server message block and that could give them much higher
Speaker 2: privileges within the network.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're in now. They use assault.
Speaker 2: Tools, YEP, tools designed to actually change things, alter system configurations,
Speaker 2: environment variables, maybe target hardware settings, and then they.
Speaker 1: Need to get the goods out right data theft.
Speaker 2: That's where exploration tools come in. Think of them as
Speaker 2: digital vacuum cleaners, designed to hide or extract data covertly.
Speaker 2: How do they hide that often by using common everyday
Speaker 2: protocols open VPN, open ssh, FTP, things that might look
Speaker 2: like normal traffic, or they get clever use covert channels.
Speaker 2: Our sources even mentioned sneaking data out through mail protocols,
Speaker 2: encoding it, breaking it up into tiny pieces across multiple packets.
Speaker 1: Trying to fly under the radar. Makes sense.
Speaker 2: Then you have persistence tools, things like hidden malware, backdoors,
Speaker 2: stealth user accounts, all designed to maintain access to stay
Speaker 2: inside the network without being detected, sometimes for long periods.
Speaker 1: And they hide themselves too, not just the data.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's oppustation tools, proxy servers, VPNs, the tour network,
Speaker 2: anything to conceal the attacker's real location, their identity, the
Speaker 2: tools they're using.
Speaker 1: Which brings up a huge problem you mentioned attribution. If
Speaker 1: they're so good at hiding, how can anyone ever figure
Speaker 1: out who did it?
Speaker 2: That is the critical challenge. It's incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1: Attribution point is huge, and it makes sense then that
Speaker 1: the final stage often involves covering tracks tools.
Speaker 2: Exactly, removing all traces they were ever there, manually deleting
Speaker 2: logs using automated wipers, sometimes even causing a permanent denial
Speaker 2: of service, basically bricking the equipment to destroy evidence.
Speaker 1: What's wild is that these same tools, these techniques, security
Speaker 1: professionals use them.
Speaker 2: Too, right, they do in legitimate vulnerability assessments, penetration testing.
Speaker 2: But the key difference is obviously permission caution, strict ethical
Speaker 2: and legal boundaries. It's the intent that differs.
Speaker 1: Okay, and this whole world of tools and exploits, it's
Speaker 1: led to this underground marketplace, the cyber bizarre, that's what
Speaker 1: some call.
Speaker 2: It, yes or the black marketplace. What's really striking is
Speaker 2: how zero day vulnerabilities. Those are the flaws attackers find
Speaker 2: before the software makers know about the super valuable, incredibly valuable.
Speaker 2: They're treated like virtual products sold anonymously online, sometimes with
Speaker 2: tech support tutorials. Makes that accessible even if you're not
Speaker 2: a top tier hacker.
Speaker 1: There's that big takedown Darcode Right.
Speaker 2: Twenty fifteen, your poll called it the most prolific English
Speaker 2: speaking cyber criminal forum. Took a huge international effort law
Speaker 2: enforcement from twenty countries.
Speaker 1: There's a legitimate side too, like bounty programs.
Speaker 2: Yes, companies like Zerodium offer huge bounties for researchers who
Speaker 2: find and responsibly disclose these high risk vulnerabilities. They pay
Speaker 2: for the information so it can be fixed rather than
Speaker 2: sold on the black market. It's a complex ecosystem.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's shift gears a bit. Let's talk about the
Speaker 1: highest stakes, imaginable critical infrastructure and nuclear systems.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where the potential consequences get truly terrifying.
Speaker 1: So critical infrastructure, that's basically the stuff society needs to
Speaker 1: function right, National safety, economy, public health.
Speaker 2: Power grids, water systems, transportation, finance, communications, all of it.
Speaker 1: And our sources say cyber threats have moved squarely into
Speaker 1: the CBR end industries. That's chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear explosives.
Speaker 2: These sectors obviously require intense national level protection because an
Speaker 2: attack could be devastating.
Speaker 1: The consequences are just unthinkable exactly.
Speaker 2: Our sources state attacks on CBRN facilities could lead to
Speaker 2: national and even international level damage and irreversible consequences.
Speaker 1: And it's not just Internet connected systems, is it. Disconnected
Speaker 1: ones are vulnerable, like Ducksnet showed precisely.
Speaker 2: That's what's deeply concerning, and the threat is growing. One
Speaker 2: statistic highlighted was that in twenty sixteen, attacks on industrial
Speaker 2: control systems the ICs, the tech running these plants, jumped
Speaker 2: over one hundred and ten percent compared to just the
Speaker 2: year before.
Speaker 1: Over one hundred and ten percent. Wow. And we've seen
Speaker 1: some well chilling examples related specifically to nuclear systems over
Speaker 1: the years.
Speaker 2: There have been worrying incidents.
Speaker 1: Like the Moonlight Maze attack back in ninety nine, thought
Speaker 1: to be from Russia stealing sensitive files hitting the.
Speaker 2: Pentagon a massive breach back then.
Speaker 1: Or that incident in two thousand and seven where six
Speaker 1: nuclear armed cruise missiles went missing for thirty.
Speaker 2: Six hours, vanished from the tracking systems terrifying laps.
Speaker 1: And in twenty ten, fifty minute Man missiles just disappeared
Speaker 1: from monitors for about an hour. Plus reports in twenty
Speaker 1: seventeen of hackers actively targeting nuclear facilities.
Speaker 2: While the exact causes weren't always definitively linked to cyber attacks,
Speaker 2: in all those older cases, they absolutely underscore the extreme risks,
Speaker 2: the potential for a cyber attack to cause confusion, loss
Speaker 2: of control, or worse. It's unacceptable when you.
Speaker 1: Connect that to the bigger picture, the idea of a
Speaker 1: successful cyber attack on nuclear weapons themselves or their command
Speaker 1: and control planning systems early warning.
Speaker 2: It's not just theoretical anymore. It's considered possible, and if
Speaker 2: it happened, it could completely undermine rational deterrence theory, that
Speaker 2: core idea that mutually assured destruction prevents nuclear war. It
Speaker 2: fundamentally shifts strategic stability.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's heavy stuff. Now let's talk about something that's
Speaker 1: changing warfare again. Autonomous weapons systems AWS or law laws,
Speaker 1: lethal economists, weapons systems.
Speaker 2: Right systems that can select and engage targets without direct
Speaker 2: human intervention.
Speaker 1: We have examples already, don't we. Israel's Iron Dome.
Speaker 2: Which automatically tracks and intercepts rockets.
Speaker 1: The usc RAM system counter.
Speaker 2: Rocket artillery and mortar automatically destroys in coming rounds.
Speaker 1: Then there's Israel's Harpy drone, a.
Speaker 2: Fire and forget weapon that hunts radar signals autonomously, the.
Speaker 1: UK's Tyrannus Combat drone, the US Navy's X forty seven
Speaker 1: B Carrier drone, even those Samsung robots in the Korean DMZ, the.
Speaker 2: Sgr A one. Yeah, surveillance robots with an automatic mode
Speaker 2: for target engagement, although the exact parameters of that mode
Speaker 2: are debated.
Speaker 1: This whole area laugibly. Yes, it's sparking intense debate. Some
Speaker 1: call it the third revolution in warfare.
Speaker 2: After gunpowder and nuclear arms. Yes, it's a huge potential shift, and.
Speaker 1: The arguments against them are serious.
Speaker 2: Very serious, violating international humanitarian law? Can a machine make
Speaker 2: life and death calls appropriately lowering the threshold for conflict?
Speaker 2: Does it make war too easy, becoming indiscriminate weapons of terror?
Speaker 2: If they proliferate and a big one, they could be.
Speaker 1: Hackable, turned against their own side.
Speaker 2: Potentially, Yes, which is why you see prominent AI and
Speaker 2: robotics companies writing open letters to the UN urging for
Speaker 2: regulation before these things become widespread.
Speaker 1: And AI itself, artificial intelligence is woven into all of this.
Speaker 2: Isn't it absolutely central, both as a tool for attack
Speaker 2: and defense.
Speaker 1: Our sources predict AI and hand cyber attacks will be
Speaker 1: scary effective, accurately aimed, difficult to.
Speaker 2: Attribute, exploiting AI based vulnerabilities, and crucially having self improvement
Speaker 2: mechanisms they can learn and adapt on their own.
Speaker 1: Like automated spearfishing that gets better at tricking you or
Speaker 1: IBM's deep blocker concept.
Speaker 2: Yeah, deep blockers showed how AI could hide malware until
Speaker 2: very specific conditions are met, like recognizing a particular face
Speaker 2: or voice, making it ultra targeted and hard to detect beforehand.
Speaker 1: But AI is in fool proof right. It has weaknesses too.
Speaker 2: It can be tricked things like AI pixel poisoning, tiny
Speaker 2: invisible changes to an image that make an AI misclassify
Speaker 2: it completely. It's very much a dual use.
Speaker 1: Technology, so it could be used for defense too.
Speaker 2: Immense potential there. We're talking about intelligent autonomous mobile agents
Speaker 2: that could proactively hunt for threats on networks. NATO is
Speaker 2: exploring this plus using things like game theory and deep
Speaker 2: learning to model threats and develop smarter adaptive defenses.
Speaker 1: And all this potential is kicked off a global AI
Speaker 1: arms race, hasn't It.
Speaker 2: Seems that way. Russia's actively competing their defense minister pushing
Speaker 2: for AI development to counter.
Speaker 1: Threats and China.
Speaker 2: China has that incredibly ambitious plan be the world AI
Speaker 2: leader by twenty thirty. Big focus on cyber sovereignty, which
Speaker 2: means tight control.
Speaker 1: The Great Firewall affecting foreign tech companies.
Speaker 2: Right, and nearly three hundred new national cybersecurity standards, police
Speaker 2: powers to inspect businesses, remote network access. It's a very
Speaker 2: state centric controlled approach.
Speaker 1: In the US.
Speaker 2: Signific investments too, increased DdO D funding for unmanned systems
Speaker 2: offensive cyber capabilities DARP UP pushing the boundaries, though some
Speaker 2: projects like Project Maven involving Google previously sparked controversy about
Speaker 2: ethics and military AI.
Speaker 1: Okay, So bringing this all together with this complex, fast
Speaker 1: moving landscape, how do we actually defend cyberspace? What are
Speaker 1: the basic principles?
Speaker 2: Well, it often boils down to the classic CIA triad
Speaker 2: of information.
Speaker 1: Security CIA not the agency, No.
Speaker 2: Not the agency. Confidentiality, integrity and availability okay. Confidentiality protecting
Speaker 2: information from unauthorized access, keeping secret secret, ensuring information is accurate, complete,
Speaker 2: hasn't been tampered with. That's where things like cryptographic hashes
Speaker 2: come in MD five SAHA one like digital fingerprints, though
Speaker 2: it's worth noting some older ones like MD five aren't
Speaker 2: considered fully secure anymore.
Speaker 1: Right, need stronger ones now and.
Speaker 2: Availability making sure information and systems are accessible when you
Speaker 2: need them. Denial of service attacks are a direct threat
Speaker 2: to availability.
Speaker 1: So how do we achieve CI and A What are
Speaker 1: the key defenses?
Speaker 2: Well, encryption is fundamental scrambling rata, so only authorized parties
Speaker 2: can read it.
Speaker 1: Different types, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Symmetric encryption uses one key. Asymmetric uses a public key
Speaker 2: and a private key. That's the basis for PKI public
Speaker 2: key infrastructure which manages digital certificates and identities, and hybrid
Speaker 2: methods like s encryption try to get the best of both.
Speaker 1: There was that controversy in Australia about encryption.
Speaker 2: Laws right requiring tech companies to provide law enforcement access
Speaker 2: to encrypted messages. It highlights that constant tension between security
Speaker 2: needs and privacy rights.
Speaker 1: Okay, encryption, what else?
Speaker 2: Access control? Basically who gets to access what?
Speaker 1: Like permissions exactly.
Speaker 2: There's discretionary access control, where users control access to their
Speaker 2: own files. Mandatory access control is stricter. The system enforces
Speaker 2: rules based on security labels and a role based access
Speaker 2: control very common in organizations. Grants access based on your
Speaker 2: job role makes sense.
Speaker 1: What about finding weaknesses before they're attacked?
Speaker 2: That's vulnerability management. It's proactive identifying, classifying, fixing, or mitigating
Speaker 2: weaknesses before attackers exploit them.
Speaker 1: And there's a right way to report vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2: You find, yes, responsible disclosure. The best practice is to
Speaker 2: notify the vendor privately first, give them time to fix
Speaker 2: it before you announce it publicly. That protects users.
Speaker 1: Good practice. Okay, what about specific defenses against different malware
Speaker 1: types like those macroviruses.
Speaker 2: Standard antivirus solutions are still key there. For botnets, you
Speaker 2: need specialized anti botnet.
Speaker 1: Tools and passwords. Everyone hates passwords.
Speaker 2: Huh huh, true, but strong policies are crucial. Our sources
Speaker 2: recommend over sixteen symbols. Avoid personal info unique for every
Speaker 2: site or app. Better yet, use alternatives like.
Speaker 1: Fingerprint scanners or multi factor authentication MFA.
Speaker 2: Exactly biometrics or MFA adds significant layers, But be aware
Speaker 2: new tools are all always emerging that try to bypass
Speaker 2: even two factor authentication. The arms race continues.
Speaker 1: Always evolving. What about ransomware and that crypto mining stuff?
Speaker 2: Right, ransomware locks your files, demands payment. Crypto mining malware
Speaker 2: secretly uses your computer's power to mine cryptocurrency for the attacker.
Speaker 1: And you said crypto mining is overtaking ransomware.
Speaker 2: Our sources suggest that trend. Yeah, yeah, maybe less direct confrontation,
Speaker 2: more stealthy profit. Countermeasures include good anti malware and maybe
Speaker 2: some browser add ons designed block mining scripts.
Speaker 1: And if an attack does get through, what then.
Speaker 2: Then it's recovery and reporting. You need procedures, evaluate the damage,
Speaker 2: figure out the causes, check those logs, and crucially use
Speaker 2: your backups to restore systems and data. Backups are key,
Speaker 2: absolutely essential, and sometimes you need external experts for non
Speaker 2: technical stuff like legal issues or reputation management. This all
Speaker 2: feeds into digital forensics.
Speaker 1: The detective work.
Speaker 2: Precisely carefully collecting, preserving and analyzing digital evidence to figure
Speaker 2: out what happened, who did it, and document it properly,
Speaker 2: often for legal reasons.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's zoom out again. We've talked about attacks and defenses.
Speaker 1: What about global efforts international security?
Speaker 2: This is where it gets really complex, especially as we
Speaker 2: discussed with attribution, figuring out who doing it exactly. Our
Speaker 2: sources call it one of the most important elements for
Speaker 2: decurrents and one of major challenges why Because attackers use
Speaker 2: technical tricks VPNs, tour proxy chains, plus there are strategic, political,
Speaker 2: and legal hurdles. It makes tracing attacks back definitively incredibly hard.
Speaker 1: But you need attribution for deterrence to work right.
Speaker 2: Ideally, yes, if attackers know they'll be caught and face consequences,
Speaker 2: they might think twice. But proving it is tough.
Speaker 1: So how do different nations approach this? The US?
Speaker 2: The US has its DHS Cybersecurity strategy, various executive initiatives,
Speaker 2: the National Security Strategy. We see significant budget increases for
Speaker 2: things like unmanned systems, offensive cyber operations. DARPA is key
Speaker 2: for funding cutting edge tech.
Speaker 1: But there's that tension, right government working with the private sector,
Speaker 1: but also surveillance concerns.
Speaker 2: That's a constant balancing act. Yeah, especially after revelations about
Speaker 2: government surveillance programs. How do you foster innovation and collaboration
Speaker 2: while protecting privacy and civil liberties. It's a critical question.
Speaker 1: What about Russia.
Speaker 2: Russia's approach is guided by its information security doctrine. The
Speaker 2: priority is very much nation state safety, which often translates
Speaker 2: to significant monitoring and control over cyberspace within its borders.
Speaker 1: They have that big Digital Economy program yes.
Speaker 2: Twenty nineteen twenty twenty four trillions of rubles invested in
Speaker 2: regulating the digital environment, building infrastructure. Russia has also been
Speaker 2: very active and pushing for UN activities on international information security,
Speaker 2: advocating for certain norms.
Speaker 1: And China we mentioned their AI ambitions in cyber sovereignty.
Speaker 2: Right, aiming to lead an AI by twenty thirty. Cyber
Speaker 2: sovereignty is central the right to control their own digital space.
Speaker 2: That means the Great Firewall, strict rules for foreign tech companies,
Speaker 2: often requiring data localization or handing over encryption keys.
Speaker 1: And lots of new standards, police inspection powers.
Speaker 2: Nearly three hundred new national cybersecurity standards. Recently police have
Speaker 2: authority to inspect businesses, even access networks remotely to check
Speaker 2: for security loopholes. It's a very comprehensive state controlled model, so.
Speaker 1: Very different national approaches. What about international cooperation? Is anything
Speaker 1: actually getting done?
Speaker 2: There are efforts. The UN Group of Governmental Experts GGE
Speaker 2: on Information and Telecommunications has been important. It managed to
Speaker 2: build some early consensus on applying international law and norms
Speaker 2: of behavior to cyberspace, setting some ground rules exactly baby
Speaker 2: steps but important ones.
Speaker 1: And the Talent Manual that came out.
Speaker 2: Of the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defense Center of Excellence Talent
Speaker 2: Manual two point zero confirms that existing international law, like
Speaker 2: the laws of armed conflict, does apply to cyber operations.
Speaker 2: It helps clarify principles like distinction proportionality in the cyber context.
Speaker 1: Applying old rules to the new domain.
Speaker 2: Essentially yes, and you also have the Buddapest Convention on Cybercrime,
Speaker 2: a major treaty aimed at harmonizing national laws against cybercrime
Speaker 2: and fostering international cooperation in investigations.
Speaker 1: More recently, there was a UN High Level Panel on
Speaker 1: Digital Cooperation.
Speaker 2: Convened in twenty eighteen, Yeah, aiming to boost cooperation between governments,
Speaker 2: the private sector, civil society, academia trying to find ways
Speaker 2: to manage the risks of digital tech and avoid unintended
Speaker 2: negative consequences.
Speaker 1: So lots of talking, some agreements, but the challenges remain huge.
Speaker 2: Absolutely when you connect it all to the bigger picture
Speaker 2: ensuring a safe, stable cyberspace given its global reach, the
Speaker 2: secrecy of attacks, the attribution problem, the involvement of powerful,
Speaker 2: well funded actors, both state and non state. It's an
Speaker 2: immense ongoing challenge, a global chess game with incredibly high stakes.
Speaker 1: So, after this whole journey from you know, simple prank
Speaker 1: code like Elkloner all the way to nation states, cyber war,
Speaker 1: autonomous weapons AI threats, and what does this all mean
Speaker 1: for you listening right now? It's pretty clear the whole
Speaker 1: landscape of conflict is changing incredibly fast. Those old lines
Speaker 1: between peace and war, they're getting seriously blurred. In cyberspace.
Speaker 2: We've really seen how the tools built to connect us
Speaker 2: well they can be turned into weapons. It just underscores
Speaker 2: how vital robust defenses are, but also ethical frameworks and
Speaker 2: real international cooperation. And it leaves us with a pretty
Speaker 2: fundamental question. I think, as this technology keeps racing ahead,
Speaker 2: can our governance, our laws, our human values ever actually
Speaker 2: keep pace with the power of cyber arms and AI.
Speaker 2: Can we ensure they serve us not threaten us.
Speaker 1: That's a heavy question and maybe a final provocative thought
Speaker 1: for you to chew on. If a modern cyber weapon
Speaker 1: can become useless in just weeks because its vulnerability gets
Speaker 1: discovered and patched, what does that very short lifespan mean
Speaker 1: for long term deterrence strategies, for global stability, and maybe
Speaker 1: closer to home, what role do you think individuals play
Speaker 1: in trying to secure this digital world we all now
Speaker 1: live in.