WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.720 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.000 You ever hear the one about the mad scientists who 3 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:11.359 tried to create life, about how things got complicated and 4 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:14.279 the monster itself wondered if it had a soul or 5 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.199 if it was merely a puppet that looked like a 6 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:22.320 sentient being. Oh, that story's old, really old, perhaps far 7 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:26.719 older than you might imagine. Before Commander Data, before Pinocchio, 8 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:32.000 before Frankenstein, there was the man made monster called the Homunculus. 9 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:35.079 And if you wanted to make a Homunculus, you really 10 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.719 had to take matters. 11 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:37.439 Into your own hand. 12 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.399 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 13 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:51.920 A giant, hairy creature Part eight, Part mass in Luckness, 14 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:54.799 a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands 15 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.840 of Scotland. It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. 16 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:21.280 Monster tal. 17 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.640 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 18 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.879 Blake Smith and today Ben Radford and Karen Stolesno and 19 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.680 I interview a historian of science. It's a really fun 20 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.680 interview about a monster that's a little known today, but it's 21 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.840 had more of an impact on history and scientific thought 22 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.840 than you might imagine. And just so we're clear. The 23 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:44.159 word monculus has a more common meaning in science today. Roughly, 24 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.239 it's used to represent the idea of consciousness being a 25 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.480 little being inside you, and that's a great topic for 26 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:53.560 discussion on its own, but outside the scope of this episode. 27 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.439 This episode is about one of the strangers creatures we've 28 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.120 ever discussed on Monster Talk, and come to think of it, 29 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.120 I should mention right now that we're going to be 30 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:05.040 talking about some of the more solitary aspects of human 31 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:09.560 sexuality in this episode. So if you have young ones listening, 32 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:11.120 this might be a good time to switch over to 33 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.879 see what those wacky kids big pictures science are up to. 34 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.960 You've been warned more Instrutle. So today we're going to 35 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.199 interview Professor William R. 36 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.439 Newman of Indiana University's Department of History and Philosophy of Science. 37 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.639 He's the author of seven books, including Promethean Ambitions, Alchemy, 38 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:30.919 and The Quest to Perfect Nature, which includes a fascinating 39 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.639 chapter on the topic of today's show, the homunculus. So 40 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.599 just getting started, let's begin with the basics. What is 41 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:39.479 a homunculus. 42 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.400 Yeah, well, I mean a homunculus was essentially an artificial 43 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:44.000 human being. 44 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:46.120 I mean so you know, I had always imagined them 45 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.599 as being something that an alchemist might create as a 46 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.599 little servant or a helper. But I'm not really sure 47 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.360 that's accurate. Was it more of a science experiment or 48 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:58.240 were they supposed to actually be useful or what's sort 49 00:02:58.280 --> 00:02:59.080 of the purpose there. 50 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:06.120 Well, that's a complicated question because these quests to create 51 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.120 our artificial humans have a long history. 52 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:10.599 Actually, they go back to. 53 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:17.680 Probably late antiquity, the early Muslim period maybe, and anyway, 54 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:22.680 the goal changed over time, right, I mean, I could 55 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:25.120 give you an entire history of this if you like, 56 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.199 but it's a little bit elaborate. 57 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.479 Yes, we'd love to hear a long form you know, 58 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:32.960 maybe you know, five minutes or so or whatever you 59 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:33.360 can on. 60 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.159 The history of the monculus if you get all right, 61 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.800 all right, well look I'll whole. 62 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.800 Chapter, so I know you can get some words out of. 63 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:44.000 All right, I'll start at the beginning. 64 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:45.000 Yeah. 65 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:50.199 The earliest you know, really identifiable on monculus is in 66 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:55.639 this Arabic story called the Story of Solomon and Apsal, 67 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.000 which is a frustrated love affair between these two character 68 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.280 There is Solomon and Absol, and it turns out that 69 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:07.080 Solomon is a homunculus who was created by his father, 70 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:12.680 this mythical king Harmanus, who may be Hermes Trismegistus, another 71 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:18.360 mythical figure, who wanted to have a child without as 72 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:23.160 it were, you know, defiling himself by having sexual intercourse. 73 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.240 That's the primary message behind this story that it's possible 74 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.560 to have an artificial child in a bottle. 75 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.199 Basically, what the king. 76 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:39.079 Does is he masturbates and produces some seman that way 77 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.800 and puts it in a mandrake root, a hollow mandrake root, 78 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.759 and then his court advisor, a wise man named kalie Kulas, 79 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:50.000 apparently heats it up for a period of time and 80 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:56.040 generates this child, Solomon in the mandrake root. Now, the 81 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.040 purpose of this, if there is a purpose, is once 82 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:02.319 again simple for this king to be able to remain 83 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:06.439 an ascetic and yet have a child. Right. So, the 84 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:11.800 homunculus Solomon is apparently a pretty normal human being. He 85 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:16.439 doesn't have magical powers or anything like that. He just 86 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.560 happens to be a child that is produced artificially. But 87 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:25.360 as you progress through time, the role of the homunculus 88 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:29.160 changes so that by the time you get to the 89 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:34.720 sixteenth century and Paracelsus, who is quite an amazing character 90 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:38.000 in his own right, talks about the Homunculus, or at 91 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.040 least somebody writing under the name of Paracelsus, and a 92 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.800 work called on the Nature of Things. The homunculus has 93 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:50.839 become this sort of semi magical figure who has all 94 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:55.000 sorts of prophetical powers and can help the owner of 95 00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:00.839 the homunculus somehow to win battles in this sort of thing. So, yeah, 96 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.079 the role of the homunculus changes as the legend evolves 97 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:05.639 over time. 98 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:09.800 And didn't the ingredients change as well that we used 99 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:10.519 in this formula. 100 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:16.079 No, actually not. It's actually in this text that I'm 101 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.240 talking about. Was published in fifteen seventy two, this work 102 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.279 on the Nature of Things, which is probably not really 103 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:27.920 by the historical Paracelsus. The homunculus is once again produced 104 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:30.560 out of human sema that is sealed up in a 105 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:36.079 flask and allowed to incubate for I believe forty days 106 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:37.639 and forty nights. 107 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.639 So I'm trying to picture this is it basically just 108 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.680 is a human size figure. In a lot of the 109 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.879 Lord that I've read, it was supposed to be a small, 110 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:52.759 tiny man anywhere from six inches to a few feet high? 111 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:56.639 Is it? What does the physically look like? Is it 112 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:58.240 just like a small person? What is it? 113 00:06:59.000 --> 00:06:59.240 Yeah? 114 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.399 Well, in this part a Selsian treatise, it starts out small, 115 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.560 but the author is ambiguous as to whether it grows 116 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.319 to a fully sized figure or not. So you could 117 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.040 really read the text either way. And yeah, certainly some 118 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:18.079 other texts that talk about homunculi do maintain that, Yeah, 119 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.279 they would remain small, but the smallness is not really 120 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:24.120 the key issue. What's really key about all of these 121 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.959 reports that I mentioned so far is that they claim 122 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:33.199 that the homunculus is produced out of semen alone. Now 123 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.480 that really is important if you think in terms of 124 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:39.959 pre modern theories of human generation. I mean, all of 125 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.839 this really ultimately harks back to Aristotle and of course 126 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:49.120 Aristotle's follower Galen, the medical writer of the second century AD, 127 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.480 because these guys bought into the theory that the way 128 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:58.160 human generation works is that the semen, the male semen 129 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:02.560 acts on the menstrual blood of the female. So the 130 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:07.279 female menstrual blood supplies the matter and the semen provides 131 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.120 the form. All right, So what that means is that 132 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.600 if you could create a human being without the menstrual blood. 133 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.279 You'd be creating it without the matter. That's sort of 134 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:24.319 celestial human being that was not weighed down by the 135 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.639 sort of prison of material existence. I think that's the 136 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.199 operative idea behind this. 137 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.720 How did Aristotle become such a major influence in medieval Europe. 138 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.080 I've always been curious about that. 139 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:39.559 Well, Yeah, Aristotle, of course wrote a huge corpus, and 140 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.759 he was a brilliant man. 141 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.759 He was sort of. 142 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.240 The creator in a way of formal logic, and his 143 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:49.600 logical works had been known in the early Middle Ages. 144 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.759 It's his works on natural philosophy in particular that came 145 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.320 to be known in the twelfth century and later in 146 00:08:57.799 --> 00:08:58.759 Western Europe. 147 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:00.799 And it happened that. 148 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:08.320 A huge movement to translate Greek scientific works into Latin 149 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.879 from Arabic. The Arabs had translated a lot of this 150 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.039 stuff already in the Arabic took place during the twelfth century. 151 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.440 And this was more or less coincident with the period 152 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:25.000 when the universities started coming into existence in twelfth thirteenth century. 153 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:28.679 So at the same time as you have this marvelous 154 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:34.639 institution of organized knowledge coming into existence, namely the European universities, 155 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:40.080 you're also getting this huge quantity of material translated from 156 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:45.840 Arabic into Latin, much of which happens to be Aristotle's works, right, 157 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:51.720 So it's kind of a fortunate coincidence in a way 158 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:53.960 that you have all of this material coming at the 159 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.480 same time with this institution of learning and suddenly becoming 160 00:09:57.559 --> 00:09:59.080 available to the learned world. 161 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:03.879 Was this kind of this information, this Aristotelian knowledge, or 162 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.360 at least at the alchemy level, was in the homunculus 163 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.600 legend in general? Was it widely known, was it widely 164 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.759 believed in by the general populace, or was this something 165 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.720 just for their you know, the medieval nerd. 166 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.559 You know, I would say on one level, it was 167 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:25.919 for the medieval nerd. That is, it's something that theologians 168 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.480 discussed and some of their treatises and then alchemists discussed. 169 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:31.759 However, on another. 170 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:39.039 Level, people did believe, certainly, I think widely, that there 171 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.039 were demons and so forth they could visit one at 172 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:47.039 night and collect one's you know, nocturnal emissions and so forth, 173 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.000 and make monsters out of them. And what happened was 174 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:55.799 that various theologians then interpreted that sort of legendary idea 175 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:58.840 about what demons could do. They interpreted that as the 176 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:03.240 creation of amuncula. So it's sort of an intermixture of 177 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:07.600 popular belief and the kind of scientific gloss on that 178 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:08.799 popular belief. 179 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.159 And so what separated alchemy from black magic in the 180 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:14.960 eyes of medieval authorities. 181 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.200 They really were very, very distinct in the eyes of 182 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.799 medieval authorities. The reason for that is because you know, 183 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:27.279 alchemy per se, right, was just a manipulation of matter. 184 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.840 You took various minerals, or, in the case of making amunculus, 185 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.919 which you know really wasn't a common thing, right, you 186 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.879 take bodily fluids and so forth. But all of that 187 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.200 was considered to be perfectly natural. Right. It didn't involve, 188 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.960 let's say, the invocation of demons, it didn't involve witches, 189 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:49.000 it didn't involve sacrifices or anything of that sort. It 190 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.159 was just a natural activity, rather like cooking, right, So 191 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.879 there's no particular reason why it should have been associated 192 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:59.759 with magic. And generally speaking, if you mean by magic 193 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:01.879 demonic magic, it wasn't. 194 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.080 Personally first heard about the homunculus when I was a 195 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.639 teenager playing Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and so I sort 196 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.480 of a lot of times when I'm when i'm we're 197 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:12.480 talking about these monsters and these creatures. One of the 198 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.200 things I sort of flashed back to is, uh, is 199 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:19.120 being being a teenage nerd looking through the Monster Manual 200 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:21.720 and I actually happen to have a copy of the 201 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.240 D and D fourth Edition. In the Monster Manual, it 202 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.279 says that the alignment of it varies from for example, 203 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.639 chaotic good to lawful evil. Uh, how does that sound right? 204 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.399 What was what? What was Were they sort of aligned 205 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.840 with its creator? Or was it just sort of did 206 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:37.519 they have free will? What was the what was the 207 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:38.879 thought the thought on that? 208 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.159 Well, again, it depends on what author you're reading. Right, 209 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:47.759 in this old story of Solomon and Absol, you know 210 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:52.480 this created homunculus, Solomon just seems to be a perfectly 211 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.879 normal human being. Right. On the other hand, if you 212 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:58.960 look at some of the medieval treatises to discuss a monculi, 213 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:04.279 they argue that they are more or less insentient. There's, 214 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.799 for example, treatise ascribed to Thomas Aquinas, so it's not 215 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.639 really by him, probably written in the fourteenth century, called on. 216 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.440 The Essences of the Essence of Essences, and. 217 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:19.559 This particular treatise talks about creating the homunculus as a 218 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:20.039 kind of. 219 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.960 A medical. 220 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:27.159 Product. That's to say, the homunculus's blood is useful for 221 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:31.200 some sort of maladies. But the homunculus, according to this author, 222 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:36.039 will never actually have a rational mind. Okay, it can 223 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:42.759 only vegetate, and it can you know, experience sensory material, 224 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:44.919 but it can never reason. So it can never really 225 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.519 be a fully human being. And that is a position 226 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.000 that various other authors take as well. Right, So it 227 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.000 just depends on which author you read. I mean, there 228 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:56.960 was a lot of Actually this was one of the 229 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:02.440 arguments about the homunculus. Can it actually be a fully 230 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:07.039 rational human being? Or would God, in his wisdom prevent 231 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.240 man from being able to create another fully human being. 232 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.159 It sounds like it sort of touches on the Frankenstein 233 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:17.840 you know mythology of this, you know, this artificially created 234 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.440 entity and you know, is it a human? Is it 235 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:22.799 not a human? You know, where does it go from there? 236 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:23.399 No? 237 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.960 Absolutely, that's that's a really good point. And I think 238 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.559 Mary Shelley was in fact drawing on some of this 239 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:33.360 older material about the creation of artificial human beings when 240 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.200 she wrote Frankenstein. Yeah, they considered a lot of this 241 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.840 sort of ethical issues you know that now come up 242 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.480 in bioengineering and so forth. A lot of these issues 243 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.360 came up in the context of discussing the homunculus. 244 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.879 So it was sort of a moral problem, an ethical problem. 245 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.799 It was kind of a focal point for discussion about issues, 246 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:59.519 for example, the role of women in human generation. Is 247 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.559 it the one just a hollow flask? As it were 248 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.919 ridiculous as that sounds in terms of modern generative theory, 249 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.240 you know, from the perspective of the Medievals and early moderns, 250 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:11.960 it made a certain amount of sense. So there was 251 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.840 a discussion about this and various other issues, again concerning 252 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:21.320 the proper use for the homunculous. Is it ethically okay 253 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.360 to dissect the homunculous and use its body parts, for example, 254 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.399 in medicine. I mean, that's very much like the stem 255 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.000 cell debate. You know, they were considering these same sorts 256 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.600 of issues, though of course they couldn't do any of 257 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:36.480 the things that we now can do. 258 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.840 It's interesting, though, because it's not just Frankestine, it's also Pinocchio. 259 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:42.399 I mean, the story you were talking about sounds like, yeah, 260 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.240 a lot like Pinocchio, and you know, and not just 261 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:47.679 stem cells, but also robotics and AI. 262 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.799 It seems like this is a story or a creature. 263 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.399 That, even though it's not widely known, I think by 264 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:58.000 the general populace, it's got resonance at so many levels. 265 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.200 It's just a fascinating legend. Did most of the lore 266 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.720 in your research deal with how to make them? I 267 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.759 guess I am still kind of curious about what can 268 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.519 they do if you actually create one? 269 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.399 Do they have? Are they? Are they servitors? Are they? 270 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:13.840 Do they? Are they? You know? 271 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:14.120 What? 272 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:14.960 What can they do? 273 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:19.080 Curiously, the medieval sources and and there's one in particular, 274 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.000 beyond the one ascribed to Saint Thomas, there's another one 275 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:24.759 that's even more bizarre, called the. 276 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:25.559 Book of the Cow. 277 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:29.679 And the Book of the Cow is from an Arabic manuscript, 278 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.080 though we only have it in Latin. It got translated 279 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.000 into Latin at some point, and that describes the creation 280 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:40.360 of a homunculus that is uh intended to be dissected, 281 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.159 and then you're supposed to be able to do stuff 282 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:46.360 like uh uh use its blood to anoint your feet, 283 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:49.320 and you'll be able to walk on water, and you know, 284 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.919 all sorts of really bizarre claims about what this will 285 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.679 allow you to do if you use its bodily fluid 286 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.559 in one way or another. This is in fact part 287 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:06.319 of a medieval and magical tradition called organotherapy, where you 288 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.759 use different body parts to cure different types of diseases. 289 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.519 Like if you have a bad headache, recurrent headache, you're 290 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:16.720 supposed to go out and eat some human brain. If 291 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.839 you are having a you know problem, you know, a 292 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.839 sexual problem, you know, you're supposed to ingest bits of 293 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.799 genitals or something like this. This is sometimes called direct 294 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:32.839 apotheca filth pharmacy for obvious reasons. 295 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:34.240 And this, this. 296 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.160 Book of the Cow is full of that sort of thing. 297 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.279 It's a very strange text. 298 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:38.720 I have to say. 299 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.279 So it's also a sympathetic magic. 300 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:46.720 Right, yes, right, This is not explicitly demonic magic. It's 301 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.519 a kind of natural magic, you know. That is to say, 302 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:54.799 using the secret powers of material things, adding them together 303 00:17:55.079 --> 00:18:00.799 to you know, create more powerful medicine and so forth. 304 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.319 You mentioning earlier you were talking about using the homunculus's 305 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:08.160 blood for melodies and Frankenstein as well. I understand that 306 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.319 the homunculus was kept alive by being fed human blood. 307 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.079 So I'm wondering how the creature fits in with the 308 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:16.000 larger vampire traditions. 309 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.160 Oh, that's an interesting question. Yeah, it's true. 310 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.599 In the pseudo Paracelsian book on the Nature of Things, 311 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.200 he does say. The author does say that you're supposed 312 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.440 to feed the homunculus what he calls the arcanum of 313 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:35.720 human blood, which is probably blood that is combined with 314 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.400 a mineral acid and allowed to sit for a while. 315 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.640 It's not entirely clear what this arcanum of human blood is. 316 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.400 I don't think there's. 317 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:49.839 A direct connection with the vampire legend, but there are 318 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:55.319 all sorts of, of course, miraculous properties associated with human blood, 319 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.440 particularly the idea that it contains some sort of pneumatic 320 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:04.559 spiritual substance that has life giving properties. So I think 321 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.599 that's what the pseudo Paracelsian author is drawing on. 322 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.039 I'm trying to picture, you know, sort of how this 323 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.200 fits in the broader scheme of monsters and things like that. 324 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.240 I mean, were there were there was it a case 325 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.920 of where there were many of these monculated running around 326 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:22.799 or is it a case of where there were really 327 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.359 only one or two or three sort of you know, 328 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:27.759 you could basically you could just name them instead of 329 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:29.400 just calling them by their generic name. 330 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:30.079 Uh. 331 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.799 You know again you talked earlier about the one with Paracelsus. 332 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.200 Are there supposed obviously? Are there races of these? Are 333 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.119 there thought to be? You know many of them are 334 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.519 just sort of a singular entity or how does that work? 335 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:46.039 Well, if you look at the theologians who discuss the 336 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.680 origin of races like the Huns in particular, there's a 337 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:54.480 tradition that the Huns were created by intercourse between demons 338 00:19:54.519 --> 00:20:01.400 and humans, and that receives a kind of homuncular and reportation. Actually, 339 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:05.400 in the fifteenth century, the way that this sort of 340 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.079 intercourse was supposed to happen was a succubus, a female 341 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.519 demon was supposed to come during a dream and you know, 342 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.920 induce nocturnal emissions which would then be collected by this 343 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:23.880 demon and somehow then transferred to human female and doctored 344 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.839 up to create in this case, the sort of super race, 345 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.640 namely the Huns. Another example of this kind of story 346 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.079 is in the tradition that the Celtic magician Merlin was 347 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:40.680 a monster produced in this fashion. So yeah, some people 348 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.359 did think that that the Huns were race of homunculi, 349 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.319 so obviously they didn't stay small. 350 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:55.440 How does a homunculus compared to wait, the plural is homunculi, right, yep, okay, right, 351 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:57.759 So in case you ever run into more than one, 352 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.799 How does a monkeylus compared to a gollum or other 353 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.319 kinds of magical living creations from. 354 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:06.960 Lore of the time. 355 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.880 Yeah, that's a really good question. Some people have argued 356 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.599 that the golam. 357 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.119 Tradition is closely related to the monculus tradition. I think 358 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.400 they're very, very distinct, actually, because if you look at 359 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.920 the way that a golam was supposed to be created, 360 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.640 it was supposed to be done by verbal magic, you know, 361 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:32.559 employing the magic of Hebrew letters the golum. One story 362 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.160 from the sixteenth century is a golam was. 363 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:39.440 Made out of clay with the. 364 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:43.519 Hebrew word ms on its forehead, meaning truth, and then 365 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.640 the first letter was erased, converting that to the word 366 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.880 for death, and then the golum would collapse. Unfortunately, in 367 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:55.160 this particular story, it collapses on its maker because he 368 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:56.759 didn't have the good sense to get out of the 369 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:58.480 way when he erased the first letter. 370 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:00.640 But you see, all of that has. 371 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:05.200 To do with creating something by means of words. It 372 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:08.039 has nothing to do with this sort of wet a 373 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.960 life method that the alchemists were involved in, using semon 374 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:16.359 and so forth. It's an entirely different tradition in my opinion. 375 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.880 Obviously, the homunculus is closely tied into mythology and folklore. 376 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.680 Were there different culture bound versions of the homunculus around 377 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.039 the world or did it stick more or less faithful 378 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:29.160 to its original version? 379 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.640 Well, in the sense you know that the homoculus involves 380 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:38.000 this attempt at artificial generation employing males only. I mean, 381 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.000 there is a very distinct tradition of this, again going 382 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.960 back to this late Antique or early Islamic period and 383 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.799 carrying through all the way to the seventeenth century. Certainly, 384 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.920 so that is a very distinct tradition. But what changes 385 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:57.160 is the interpretation of the homoculus, that is, what does 386 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.039 it do, what is it good for? And again, and 387 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.519 I think a lot of this devolves upon using the 388 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.400 homunculus as a way of sort of raising ethical concerns 389 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.839 about the limits of what we would call science. Actually, 390 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.160 I think that the homunculous issue, right, whether human beings 391 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.559 can make an artificial human is closely related to the 392 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:24.480 alchemical issue of whether alchemists can make gold. In the 393 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.559 one case, it is a question of whether we can 394 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.559 make the very pinnacle of creation itself, namely the human being. 395 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.880 And the other case is the question whether we can 396 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:38.319 make the pinnacle of mineral creation, namely our artificial gold. 397 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:42.240 So the two issues are actually closely interrelated, and they 398 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.400 were topics that people like to discuss. You know, it's 399 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.119 sort of in a way thought experiments. 400 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.759 You might say. 401 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.440