WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.040 When you hold this in front of me. Oh, yes, 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:08.880 surely that's a little too high. Sorry. How long did 3 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:11.279 it take you to make this? About a month? Uh? 4 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:12.560 Did you use good steel? 5 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:12.720 Oh? 6 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:14.919 Yes, the very best. Well, some steals are better than others, 7 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:19.760 you know. Oh yes, excuse me, I think you've got 8 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:21.480 a bad piece, But better luck next time. 9 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.399 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 10 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.439 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman. 11 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:49.359 And I'm Joey Angelfield producer. 12 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.759 Engineer Mike Tomran is working somewhere behind the scenes. Amusing 13 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.719 Jews is a project of a Dot Havreem Corregation for 14 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:59.320 Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the American West In 15 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.439 I did studios. Hey Joey, what did the world's greatest 16 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.439 escape artists do to escape the limelight? He read books. 17 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:10.400 We're allowed to top with Barb Rosenstock, a picture book 18 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:15.079 author whose latest book is Houdini's Library. Barb, Welcome to 19 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:15.959 Amusing Jews. 20 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.519 Thanks, it's really great to be here. 21 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:20.640 What sparked your interest in Harry Houdini? 22 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:23.599 Oh, I had this crush on Tony Curtis in the 23 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:26.760 Old Houdini movie when I was like I don't know ten. 24 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:30.000 My grandma was a big old movie buffin so anytime 25 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.239 we go visit Grandma, you know, there was some old 26 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:36.519 movie on and that one I can just remember being fascinated. 27 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:38.959 So if anybody out there hasn't seen it, they really 28 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:42.159 need to go look it up. The whole thing, the 29 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:45.840 Tony Curtis muscles and the hanging upside down in the 30 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.799 tank and the death on Halloween. You know, I just 31 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.799 remember being really fascinated about that as a kid, not 32 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.680 really particularly into magic, more just kind of like into Houdini. 33 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.200 And then years ago now, I mean, I want to 34 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:01.959 say it was about eight years ago. I was at 35 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:04.439 the Library of Congress doing some research on Thomas Jefferson, 36 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.040 had nothing to do with this particular book, and there's 37 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.319 this little sign in the basement of the Library of 38 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:14.080 Congress that says the Houdini Collection or the Harry Houdini Collection, 39 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:16.560 And I just remember making a note like, what in 40 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:18.319 the heck is there, Like what would be at the 41 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.520 Library of Congress that was related to Harry Houdini. And 42 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.039 I didn't know if it was, you know, I had 43 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:24.919 this image of it being like some rabbit and an 44 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:27.000 old topy haad or something. You know. I didn't really know, 45 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.159 and just it took me a couple of books to 46 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.199 get around to, like looking up what exactly was it 47 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:35.240 at the Library of Congress, and it turns out to 48 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.520 be Houdini's books, of which he had many. 49 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.599 Mentioning the Tony Curtis movie, it's great that a Jewish 50 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.719 actor was playing probably the most famous Jew in the 51 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:48.319 world in his day. 52 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.439 Rah. Yeah, I never I mean, I certainly didn't put 53 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.000 it together then, but yeah, that's true. That's great. 54 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:55.759 I want to give a shout out to the books 55 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:00.520 artist mar delmar whose illustrations are themselves pretty magical. Could 56 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:02.199 you describe her artwork for the book? 57 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:08.639 Mar is essentially a she paints on paper then turns 58 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:14.800 those little tiny paintings into physical paper objects, kind of 59 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:22.080 like building a diorama. So like, for example, and I'm 60 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.319 going to just use the book, like here is a 61 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:28.400 page from the book, and these are all real built 62 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.360 objects out of paper that she then sets up in 63 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:36.639 a scene and photographs lights and photographs them so that 64 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.240 they've got kind of a painterly but yet you can 65 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:45.800 tell that they are real. Look to them, and it's 66 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:48.280 it's kind of to me it was like having a doll, 67 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.240 having someone take my words and the scenes that I 68 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.960 had kind of created and turn them literally into a 69 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:57.520 dollhouse like page by page Whudini's life, Like what did 70 00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:59.599 it really look like? What did it feel like to 71 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.439 inhabit those spaces, whether they were on the stage or 72 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.879 in his house in Harlem or wherever. And so Mars 73 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.000 just an incredible detailed artist, and we really felt it 74 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.159 was important to her work is so unusual that we 75 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:15.240 felt it was important that she gets her own back matter. 76 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:16.800 So in the back of the book, she's got two 77 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.040 spreads to kind of explain. And kids have been finding 78 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.839 that artwork, that explanation of the artwork completely fascinating. So 79 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.319 I'm glad you guys noticed it and liked it. It's 80 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:27.879 pretty cool. 81 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.759 Yeah, it's almost magical in the sense that it's like 82 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.000 an optical illusion. Am I looking at a painting or 83 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:40.560 a drawing? Or is this something different? It's like mysterious, 84 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.879 like the subject matter of much of Houdini's own work, 85 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:44.160 you know. 86 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:48.000 Yeah, yeah, it's a photograph of a diorama kind of, 87 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.959 I would say, But it depends because then she goes 88 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.279 back in and she'll paint a little you know, or 89 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.519 you know, so it's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, we thought 90 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:00.439 it was magical. The art director at Kadaf thought like, 91 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.399 we're waiting, we're we've got a we got a magical artist, 92 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.800 and we need a magical project. So it all came together. 93 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:06.399 It was great. 94 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.720 You connect Houdini's love of books to his rabbi father, 95 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:12.680 who sailed his books to the United States ahead of 96 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.319 his family, The fact that Houdini was book obsessed seems 97 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:17.079 pretty Jewish. 98 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.199 No, yeah, we've got the whole people of the book thing, right, 99 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.959 But actually I wasn't the one to connect that. Whodini 100 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.439 was just so you know, so I didn't just make 101 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.720 that up wholesale. Houdini spent an awful lot of time 102 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:36.040 talking about his father's love of learning and the family 103 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:39.639 that he had come from in Europe. I've got a quote, 104 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.000 we have records for five generations that my direct forefathers 105 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.959 were students and teachers of the Bible and recognized among 106 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:54.639 the leading bibliographers of their time. So he always considered 107 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:59.720 that part of his family legacy. His Judaism too, Although 108 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:05.160 he was not a particularly the practicing person, like faithful person. 109 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:09.519 But he he just kind of considers it almost like 110 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.000 the books became the religion at some point, or they were. 111 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.800 They were certainly meshed together in his head with dad, 112 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.639 with you know, with the rabbinical studies, were with his 113 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.360 the generations that they had left behind in past in Hungary. 114 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.199 So yeah, it does seem kind of Jewish, that kind 115 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:26.879 of it is. It's fine. 116 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:32.600 In his library, were there books, uh like Talmudic books 117 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:35.199 and other things that would have been reminiscent of his 118 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:37.160 father's legacy. 119 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.639 Only the ones that were his father's. He actually did that. 120 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:42.720 That's seen in the book where he searches for his 121 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.720 where they his father sells the great majority of the books, 122 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.199 and I mean, you know, no one knows how many 123 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:52.240 books exactly who Diane's dad had. You know, let's say 124 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:54.480 a big library for people of that time would have 125 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.800 been fifty books. I mean, we're not talking thousands of 126 00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:01.240 books at that point, and but his father sold essentially 127 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:05.480 almost all of them. Houdini eventually did buy back a 128 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:11.000 couple of things, and now Houdini's father's bible, for lack 129 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:12.839 of a better word, it's kind of it's kind it's 130 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.279 a combination of a couple of books, but is in 131 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:20.040 the library, is in his collection, so yeah, he did. 132 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.639 He did not have like a huge religious collection. The 133 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:31.079 collection was very focused in magic and witchcraft, mind reading, spiritualism. 134 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.600 It's definitely had a focus. He wasn't just collecting books, 135 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:40.399 you know, in general. He was collecting around his craft, 136 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.439 and initially for purposes of learning it, and then he 137 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.920 just couldn't bear to not know everything that there was 138 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:49.040 to know about magic, so he just kept going. 139 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.959 And the name Houdini came from a book he read, correct. 140 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.600 Yeah. Gen Robert Whodin was a French magician born I 141 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.680 want to say, like eighteen oh five, so right at 142 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:02.639 the beginning of the eighteen hundreds. Super famous guy. Houdini 143 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:05.959 was not the only person influenced by him. He was 144 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.879 a clockmaker I think to begin with, and then wound 145 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:15.199 up having his own magic theater and performing his act, 146 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:20.079 wildly popular in his time, and wrote an autobiography about, 147 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:22.000 you know, basically about how great it was to be 148 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.360 Gen Robert Houdin the magician, right, and about some of 149 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:27.000 his you know, some of his tracks and some of 150 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.199 the people he met. And Houdini had picked up that 151 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:32.279 book and was right away like, well, Eric Weiss picked 152 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.480 up that book because it was before he was Houdini, 153 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:39.639 and and was just like instantly. He speaks about being 154 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.919 instantly captivated, like that's who I want to be when 155 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.559 I grow up, you know, that's it. And it's kind 156 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:51.399 of astonishing because that's exactly who he became, is a 157 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.440 little bit modern, more modern version of the super famous 158 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:59.080 magician known around the world. So yeah, and he thought, 159 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:02.000 Houdini is, if I get the story right, Houdini. He 160 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.879 thought it meant like he thought adding an eye to 161 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.360 words was like the Italian version of making it like 162 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.919 who Dan. So Whodini was supposed to be? I'm like Whodan. 163 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:17.320 It turns out that that probably is not exactly grammatically 164 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.840 correct in any language, but you certainly can't argue with 165 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:22.600 the name because people still know it today. 166 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:27.080 So do you know how Houdini transitioned from more standard 167 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:31.039 kinds of magic tricks to the escape artist persona and 168 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:31.840 all that stuff. 169 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.200 Yeah, I mean a little bit he when he first 170 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.519 started working with Best, he had a various standard mandic 171 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:38.759 geck early on when he was a young man, you know, 172 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:44.200 card tricks and coins and you know, and he always 173 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:48.639 kept some of those things in many of his performances. 174 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:52.679 But when he began working with Bessy, he started there 175 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:55.480 is some there's there's some feeling and because there's no 176 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.200 real proof of this that Houdini might have worked for 177 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.080 a locksmith when he was a boy, he didn't. He 178 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:06.639 quit quit. He had to leave school somewhere between second 179 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:09.120 and third grade. So we're talking about someone that did 180 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:13.559 not attend very much formal school at all and went 181 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.679 to work. And one of the things that people think 182 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:18.519 he might have been is been working in some way 183 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:21.320 from a locksmith, because he seems super good at it, 184 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:25.840 super quick and almost like unbelievably quick, so that there 185 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.960 might have been some knowledge there to begin with. But 186 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.840 he and Best began working right away with with handcuffs, 187 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.120 and it just became the thing that people were the 188 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.799 most fascinated by, you know, and it became a way, 189 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:41.440 i think for him to really interact with the audience. 190 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.519 It was like, God, you lock me up now, which 191 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:45.279 is different than standing in front of somebody and just 192 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.480 going and no, I'm going to take a coin and 193 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:49.919 take this out of my ear, and now here's a rebit, 194 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.879 you know. It was very interactive, which I think is 195 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.480 one of the things that made Houdini so popular with 196 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:59.679 his audiences. You know, it became see if you can 197 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.240 be you know, it was there were very challenging. They 198 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.559 were challenges. Challenges to companies, you know, make a box 199 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.440 that Houdini can't escape from, make a cage that Hugini 200 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.279 can't escape from. Challenges to police departments. Okay, Philadelphia, you 201 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:15.279 think you can lock me up, go ahead and do it. 202 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.240 And if you just think about that difference, that's an 203 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.120 enormous like a leap in the in the craft, you know, 204 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.879 to involve the audience to that degree. They really weren't 205 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.279 used to it at that point. So it was pretty cool. 206 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.080 And that stuff was ready made for the press as well. 207 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:01.399 Absolutely, I mean, he was a genius the press genius Houdini, 208 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.240 you know not. I mean, because it's one thing to say, yeah, 209 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.159 I'm gonna get locked up in jail, It's another thing 210 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:10.159 to announce it a day ahead of time, Strip yourself naked, 211 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.799 make sure all there, the guy's every newspaper man in 212 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:17.279 the city is there, and then have the police chief 213 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:18.919 not be able, you know, then get out right in 214 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.399 front of the police chief. That is an entirely different, 215 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:25.679 you know, experience, So and Whodini, I mean, Houdini at 216 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:28.360 least early on didn't had did his own press. So 217 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:31.120 you know, it's pretty it's pretty incredible that he would 218 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.759 have both skills, because sometimes being an artist and having 219 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:38.159 people and knowing how to promote yourself are not necessarily 220 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.039 one and the same thing. So you definitely could do both, 221 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.639 I think out of desperation quite frankly, certainly necessity, Yeah, necessity, well, 222 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.240 and even desperation, I mean, is it's some hungry, rough 223 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:54.559 years going. I mean, yeah, there wasn't a lot to 224 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:56.440 fall back on. That's that's for sure. 225 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:58.399 Another commonplace Jewish story. 226 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.600 Yeah, it kind of is, yeah, especially of those years. 227 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:06.240 Yes, enjoying the show, Click like and subscribe. There's a 228 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.440 wonderful image in the book where the crowd is waiting 229 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:11.440 for Houdini to emerge from a locked container and he's 230 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:15.360 relaxing backstage behind the curtains reading a book. Is that 231 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:16.360 based on any account? 232 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.080 It is? It actually is. There is a book, Houdini, 233 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.600 The Man who Walked Through Walls. It's by William Grusham Crusham, 234 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:30.120 I think, and he based it on an account that 235 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:34.000 he had seen in a book called American Vaudeville, where 236 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.960 people had said there was there was, you know, actual 237 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.879 eyewitness accounts that Houdini would do. It would do a trick. 238 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:43.519 But you can't make even if it was easy, which 239 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.759 it wasn't always, but even when it was, you couldn't 240 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.440 make it look that easy because then you know, where's 241 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:52.960 the you know, where's the anticipation, right, So he would 242 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.240 sit behind the stage and just read what you know, 243 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:57.960 just waste some time reading whatever was the book on, 244 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:02.080 you know, on tap for the day. And he did 245 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.360 travel with a bookcase with one hundred books. Always everywhere 246 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:07.440 there was this bookcase. I don't think the bookcase as 247 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.840 from what I know, the bookcase doesn't exist anymore. A 248 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.440 lot of people have been asking me lately, I'd love 249 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:15.000 to see that bookcase, and like a lot of people 250 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:21.080 are collecting Houdini memorabilia. But that bookcase that I know 251 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.039 of hasn't turned up yet. But if anyone has it, 252 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:27.000 it might be David Copperfield, but who knows. 253 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:28.960 Right, But he won't let you see it. He'll do 254 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.480 some trick and make it disappear eventually. 255 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.120 I think it's going to have to be opened as 256 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.039 a museum. It's just too much. But we'll see. Hopefully 257 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:37.559 I'll be one of the first people online if it 258 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:38.559 ever does, that's for sure. 259 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:42.000 Houdini wrote some books himself, including one of my favorites, 260 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.200 A Magician among the Spirits, in which he exposes supposed 261 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.799 psychics and paranormal phenomena. Is it true he was a 262 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:50.679 terrible speller? 263 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.200 Well, first of all, it's true that basically anyone before 264 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:57.840 the nineteen twenties was a terrible speller. It just wasn't 265 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.960 standardized spelling the same way that we know it now, 266 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.519 I mean at all. I mean George Washington was a 267 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:04.720 terrible speller too, and he was not none, and he 268 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:07.360 was he was pretty educated, and he was a bad speller. 269 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.360 Like you know, so they're is saying, but yeah, Whudini. 270 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:12.759 I mean, you know, when you leave school in second grade, 271 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.000 there are things you don't learn to do. And what 272 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.480 I found very admirable though, is it it just didn't 273 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.559 occur to him that that should be something that should 274 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.159 get in your way, you know. I mean he found 275 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.200 people that could read his stuff and say, hey, that's 276 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:33.519 you know, that's sounds spelled that way, and and had 277 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.360 editors and had people who typed up his things, and 278 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.679 he just kept going. I mean, his thoughts were fine, 279 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.039 It's just his spelling was not. 280 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.279 I will say that as someone who is dyslexic myself 281 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.720 and really struggled to learn how to read and write 282 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.080 when I was growing up, that part of the book 283 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.120 was really inspiring to me to read that he had 284 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.360 those challenges, not that he was dyslexic, but that he 285 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.759 didn't let the you know, the impediment of this crazy 286 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.320 language that you have to spell get in his way. 287 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.799 Yeah, I don't think he really thought about it. I mean, 288 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.799 I think to Whodini, books are books were home, and 289 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:09.600 books are where he relaxed, and books were also his 290 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:14.120 thought process, how he learned about anything. And it was 291 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:16.879 just the thoughts were more important than the exact words. 292 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.399 It's like, you know what I mean. You know, he 293 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.399 could keep going. And again also he was by that 294 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:27.600 time world famous, you know, and quite doing quite well financially, 295 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.879 and so you know, there were there were people he had, 296 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:32.399 people like people have people. 297 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.200 A team of editors, a team of a team. 298 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.840 Of lots of people, a team of magicians, helpers, and 299 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.879 a team of people to help in and off the stage, 300 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:46.159 and of people to pack the trunks and people. Yeah, 301 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.519 it was good to be Houdini at some point, really good. 302 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.720 And he's also a wonderful thinker, you know, exposing supposed 303 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.480 psychics and paranormal phenomena, right. 304 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:58.639 Right, I mean, and I think he really would have 305 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:00.879 he said, I have an open mind, even at the 306 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.519 very end. I mean, he really didn't think that any 307 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:05.839 of the psychics that he had seen, you know, he 308 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:11.680 pretty much proved that they were fraudulent, But it didn't 309 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:13.839 mean that he said that it was impossible, you know 310 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.440 what I mean. And I really kind of admired that too. 311 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.440 So he wasn't Houdini was never so sure of his 312 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.000 own opinion that he wasn't willing to consider someone else's. 313 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.400 And I think that that's kind of the mark of 314 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.079 a well of a really educated like the in the sense, 315 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:31.359 in the real sense of the word person is like, yeah, 316 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.480 let's talk about it. You know, I don't know, I've 317 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.960 never been dead, have you, you know, so who knows 318 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.680 what really happens? Right? And so he was always willing 319 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:45.079 to entertain possibilities and could and therefore could like be 320 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.839 really close friends with like Conan Doyle, who was a 321 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.920 huge believer in spiritualism, and you know, at some point 322 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.440 the friendship completely fell apart, but really, for a long 323 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.960 time they were two people at opposite ends of the spectrum, 324 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.279 and they had dinner together and talked it through and 325 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.799 you know, spent a lot of time just discussing what 326 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.720 they completely disagreed on, and it, to me is kind 327 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.400 of cool. It was kind of Yeah, I think we 328 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.240 could use more of that. 329 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.319 Basically, a part of me thinks that that friendship was 330 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:22.359 a model for Fox Mulder and Danas Scully on X Files. 331 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.119 You have the firm believer and the doubter, you. 332 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.920 Know, right, right right, You've got you've got a true 333 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:33.359 believer and a doubter. You know, the true believer was 334 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.839 much more of a true beleiader believer. The doubter could 335 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.400 have gone either way. It's just that he never thought 336 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.000 he never found him. He just knew it was magic. 337 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:42.440 I mean, for the most part, what he was seeing 338 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.640 were people who were doing his craft, which he knew 339 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.920 an awful lot about. And so he's like, yeah, okay, 340 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.079 well now take your hands from under the table and 341 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.359 do that, you know, I mean, he just knew the tree. 342 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.119 I mean, he knew what could have been done, but 343 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:00.680 it is a concept speaking to people be on the dot. 344 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.799 I mean I think he I mean, he loved his parents, 345 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.000 his mother especially, and when she passed, I think he 346 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.799 would have loved nothing better than to be proven wrong 347 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.759 and to have been able to communicate with her one 348 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.839 more time. I mean, that is just that's clear from 349 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.480 all of his writing. It was a very emotional topic 350 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.960 for him. So he wasn't He wasn't a doubter. He 351 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.880 wasn't a scoffer, you know what I mean. He wasn't 352 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.759 like someone who just went that's stupid, nobody should believe, 353 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.799 you know what I mean. There was a real intellectual 354 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.640 curiosity there, and like, hey, I don't think you're it, 355 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.279 but as far as it being a possibility, it might exist. 356 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.680 You know, I did a book about the Fox Sisters 357 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.480 right before Houdini, and that's all spiritualism too, so I 358 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:48.680 think they kind of blend in my mind a little bit. 359 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.680 But yeah, I wonder if part of Whodini's openness was 360 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.279 just how much spiritualism, seances all that stuff was such 361 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.640 a big part of the culture at the time that 362 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.759 it was very normal to believe in this stuff, and 363 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:04.599 maybe he felt there might be something to it, you know. 364 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.359 Yeah, yeah, Well anytime that there's any kind of you know, 365 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:13.720 it's like tragedy. Right. Spiritualism came about right right before 366 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.640 the Civil War, was very popular through the Civil War, 367 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.440 kind of died back off, very popular again during World 368 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:24.039 War One, which is Houdini's time, you know what I mean. 369 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.279 So it kind of is a waving. It's kind of 370 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.559 back on the upswing right now, as a matter of fact, 371 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.079 not an exact same way, but definitely you see a 372 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.880 lot more tarot cards and reading and people doing zodiac 373 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.359 signs and all of that is you know, it's on 374 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.200 another wave of can we communicate? And you know, maybe 375 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.640 you know, maybe AI has its own intelligence like all 376 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.240 of that kind of thing, like what is AI spiritual? 377 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.440 Can it be? You know, those those kind of questions. 378 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:54.200 I mean, it's just coming up again. So I think 379 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:58.240 it's interesting, you know, not necessarily. I'm pretty big skeptic myself, 380 00:20:58.279 --> 00:20:59.960 but I do think it's interesting. 381 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.799 What do you help kids take away from Houdini's library? 382 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.480 First of all, what I always do when I write 383 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:09.279 a picture book like this is I'm trying really hard 384 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.559 to just tell a story that I find fascinating in 385 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.119 a way that a kid will find fascinating. So I 386 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.079 really try really hard not to be preachy, like preaching 387 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.640 to kids. To me is just not necessary and not 388 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.039 a turn off and kind of a turn off. You know. 389 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.519 What I hope anybody would take out of reading Houdini's 390 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.480 story is just like, look what you can do with 391 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:35.240 a book that has nothing to do as goal. Really, 392 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.480 I mean, you know, he had to leave school, he 393 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:43.720 did not have books. His family had said, these are 394 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.880 important things. We can't afford them right now, but these 395 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.519 are important things you might if you get any extra dime, 396 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:50.960 if you get an extra dime, you might want to 397 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.359 pick up a book. And he did, and he gave 398 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.440 himself a career, and he made himself into the most 399 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:02.279 famous and our pretty I mean on the planet. I mean, 400 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.000 that's arguable, but I don't know besides like Jenny Lynn 401 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.000