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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
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Speaker 4: Good Evening. Jim Jones convinced his one thousand followers they
Speaker 4: would all have to commit suicide since he was going
Speaker 4: to die. Shoko Asahara convinced his followers to release a
Speaker 4: weapon of mass destruction, the deadly saren Gas on a
Speaker 4: Tokyo subway. The Order of the Solar Temple lured the
Speaker 4: rich and famous, including Princess Grace of Monaco, convinced them
Speaker 4: to die of fiery death now on Earth, to be
Speaker 4: reborn on a better planet called Sirius. Charles Manson convinced
Speaker 4: his followers to kill in an attempt to incite an
Speaker 4: apocalyptic race war. These are a few of the doomsday
Speaker 4: cults examined in this book by best selling author Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 4: Its focus is on cults whose destructive behavior was due
Speaker 4: in large part to their apocalyptic beliefs or doomsday movements.
Speaker 4: It includes details surrounding the massacres and the look into
Speaker 4: how their members became so brainwashed they committed unimaginable crimes
Speaker 4: at the command of their leader. Usually, when we hear
Speaker 4: about these cults and their massacres, we ask ourselves how
Speaker 4: it possibly happened. We could also ask ourselves, what then,
Speaker 4: is the difference between a cult and a religion. We
Speaker 4: once had a small group of people who unquestionably followed
Speaker 4: a person who believed that he was a son of God.
Speaker 4: Two thousand years later, that following is one of the
Speaker 4: most recognized religions in the world. This book in no
Speaker 4: way criticized believing in God. Rather, it examines how a
Speaker 4: social movement grows into a full religion and when it
Speaker 4: does not, and what makes the conventional faiths such as Christianity, Judaism,
Speaker 4: Islam and Hinduism when Hinduism stand above groups such as
Speaker 4: the Branch Davidians or Children of God. The book that
Speaker 4: we are featuring this evening is Doomsday Cults The Devil's
Speaker 4: Hostage with my special guest journalist and author and host
Speaker 4: of House of Mystery, Alan R. Warren, thank you very
Speaker 4: much for agreeing in this interview. Welcome back, Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much for asking me to be on.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, it's always a pleasure. And congratulate
Speaker 4: relations on this book. Very very extensive and comprehensive, comprehensive
Speaker 4: investigation of cults that have happened before and ones presently,
Speaker 4: very very enlightening. Let's talk about why you wanted to
Speaker 4: write this book and sort of the focus of this
Speaker 4: book doomsday cults.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's something that I've been doing for
Speaker 3: a few years now, quite a few years, and meeting
Speaker 3: a lot of people that have been in some of
Speaker 3: these cults and how they believe even afterwards, and sort
Speaker 3: of that and my own sort of growing up just
Speaker 3: as probably all of us in Canada or the US,
Speaker 3: with some sort of religious influence, and just coming from
Speaker 3: that and trying to understand, trying to understand the differences
Speaker 3: and why people belong to things like this.
Speaker 4: What are some of the cults that you examined specifically
Speaker 4: in this book and then comment and again further examine
Speaker 4: in this book as examples of the cults and what
Speaker 4: exactly again, when I mentioned this focus, you said the
Speaker 4: focus on the cults whose destructive behavior was due in
Speaker 4: large part to their apocalyptic beliefs, and hence the term
Speaker 4: doomsday cults. Tell us about some of these cults that
Speaker 4: you examined in this book.
Speaker 3: Well, when I was putting together on a lot of
Speaker 3: cult books, like I have three here and this is
Speaker 3: the first one to be released, the idea was how
Speaker 3: to put them all together and make them fit, so
Speaker 3: with the Doomsday one. These these all tend to have
Speaker 3: some sort of a charismatic leader, somebody that presents themselves
Speaker 3: as a prophet or very close to God, or even
Speaker 3: being God's son or appointed by God. And what they're
Speaker 3: there to do, generally is to lead the army, the
Speaker 3: army of God, and lead them into some sort of
Speaker 3: future world after the apocalypse which is coming. And they
Speaker 3: know about the end of the world, and so they
Speaker 3: are going to lead them and take them into the
Speaker 3: new into either a new planet or into the new
Speaker 3: world after the battle or war happens. And so each
Speaker 3: one of these tends to have that sort of angle
Speaker 3: to it, that sort of reasoning and right from Jim Jones,
Speaker 3: to Charles Manson, David Koresh, they all had that, So
Speaker 3: you know, they have slight tweaks on what they say,
Speaker 3: whether the son of God or they're appointed they're a prophet,
Speaker 3: or whatever the case, and whether we have to catch
Speaker 3: a spaceship to the new world and at the new
Speaker 3: level the new place that we're going, or whether we're
Speaker 3: just going to be the ones that rebuild the world
Speaker 3: after the end times. So they all sort of have
Speaker 3: that direction, and they all tend to have the similarity
Speaker 3: of someone that's really in charge, someone that they bow to,
Speaker 3: so to speak. And that's for different reasons, but in
Speaker 3: general it's because they're dealing with the Holy Person.
Speaker 4: Certainly, you say each group has some form of indoctrination program,
Speaker 4: mind control process, and the members are exploited financially, very
Speaker 4: often sexually, or for labor or other reasons. And you
Speaker 4: write that cult plus time some people have written it
Speaker 4: equals religion. The scholars refer to cults as new religious movements.
Speaker 4: So when you mentioned and we mentioned in the introduction
Speaker 4: about movements, you also write that a Roman Empire initially
Speaker 4: considered Judaism as a cult, and Jesus was just one
Speaker 4: of at least a dozen religious messiahs during that socially
Speaker 4: turbulent time. You go on to write about movements itself.
Speaker 4: This is fascinating. Tell us about these movements and their
Speaker 4: connection to religious religions themselves.
Speaker 3: Well as in the movements, they tend to always have
Speaker 3: some sort of an agenda, a religion behind them, some
Speaker 3: sort of a truth. I think that trying to separate
Speaker 3: religious movements from cults is really tough because what exactly
Speaker 3: is the difference, And a lot of that in that
Speaker 3: first chapter that you talk about is when you look
Speaker 3: at Jesus Christ and you look at his following, he
Speaker 3: was one of twelve groups that we knew about that
Speaker 3: had the same similar sort of process within the group
Speaker 3: and the same sort of belief And yeah, they were
Speaker 3: all considered kind of cults by the Romans. And if
Speaker 3: you were to take some of those and put them now,
Speaker 3: which there are quite a few now groups that have
Speaker 3: the same similar ways about them, how would we look
Speaker 3: at them now? How would we look at Jesus now?
Speaker 3: If a person was to come forward, like you look
Speaker 3: at David Koresh who said they are the appointed one
Speaker 3: and they decide what's going to happen and who's going
Speaker 3: to do what with who and where, and they make
Speaker 3: all of these decisions and they can heal people, even
Speaker 3: like Jim Jones was able to cure cancer or whatever
Speaker 3: the case. So now we look at them as cults.
Speaker 3: Back then they were considered by common people. Someone's you know,
Speaker 3: a regular power, a place to go. So it's it's
Speaker 3: it's really the context of where the cult is.
Speaker 4: It's very interesting too, getting back to when you describe
Speaker 4: as movements religious movements. In the Mid East, you had
Speaker 4: Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Ibanat's, Ebanites, Valencian Gnosism. In Europe
Speaker 4: you have Christian Kabala familiests, again a bunch of other
Speaker 4: thins that are very unpronounceable to me. But in India, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism,
Speaker 4: different ravet Busm, so different forms of Buddhism, Sikhism, Shia Islam,
Speaker 4: Sunni Islam, different variations of Christianity. So and just a
Speaker 4: sheer number of religious movements is fascinating. Then you write
Speaker 4: about in the sixteen hundreds, you write that American colonies
Speaker 4: in the US had a reputation sort of a safe
Speaker 4: hazen for religious radicals. And so the section between Albany
Speaker 4: and Buffalo, New York you write the birthplace of Seven
Speaker 4: day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Millerism, Universal Friends, Mormonism, Spiritualism, and
Speaker 4: an American Shakers, among others. What is it about society
Speaker 4: that there were so many movements and really no, it
Speaker 4: looks like no general consensus about religion, just only more
Speaker 4: religious groups and sects branching off from those and again
Speaker 4: from those religious movements. What is the difference between a
Speaker 4: cult when they say a classification that will be called
Speaker 4: a cult or religious movement, what is the difference in
Speaker 4: the classification.
Speaker 3: Well, the real problem is again the context. You know,
Speaker 3: when you have these groups, you have these religions, and
Speaker 3: when you have slight breakoff groups, they're usually someone within
Speaker 3: that religion that believes in a particular part of where
Speaker 3: they get the religion from the Koran or the Bible,
Speaker 3: and they take that part and they believe it differently,
Speaker 3: They see it as meaning something different, and so they
Speaker 3: will break away and create their own sort of sect
Speaker 3: or you know division of that. There's so many Christian
Speaker 3: divisions now and Catholic and even Muslim to an extent,
Speaker 3: and so they sort of have these offshoots when that
Speaker 3: was going on, people that actually had totally different ideas
Speaker 3: of the religion, such as the SDA Seven Days and stuff.
Speaker 3: Why America was considered a good place to go is
Speaker 3: it was considered the place to go to get away
Speaker 3: from the mainstream religions. So it was kind of you know,
Speaker 3: the Burning District there you mentioned that was really popular
Speaker 3: amongst some of these smaller and more considered radical divisions,
Speaker 3: and so that's where it all started. So Seven Day
Speaker 3: events in general, and a lot of the other groups
Speaker 3: you mentioned that came to the Burning District in the
Speaker 3: US tended to be more end times. They tended to
Speaker 3: have more of the faith that we were living at
Speaker 3: the end of the world. So that was the biggest
Speaker 3: difference between that and the mainstream religions. And what exactly
Speaker 3: is the difference between them. It's usually about the power sect.
Speaker 3: When a certain group is in control, they have a
Speaker 3: lot of funds, they have a lot of money, they
Speaker 3: have a lot of support, and they get involved in
Speaker 3: the governments. And so in Europe the Catholics were really
Speaker 3: the main church, the most powerful. In the United States,
Speaker 3: you could come and start your group, even like the Mormons,
Speaker 3: and you could create your own base out of people
Speaker 3: that all rejected that religion, the original religion in Europe.
Speaker 3: And how do you tell the difference? It's really who
Speaker 3: can lasts? You know the time. If you can stand
Speaker 3: the test of time, then you've become more of a religion.
Speaker 3: And the other aspect is usually the person or the
Speaker 3: person that runs that division. Even when they pass, people
Speaker 3: continue on with what they were taught by that person,
Speaker 3: and you start to become more of a religion than
Speaker 3: just a cult.
Speaker 4: You say that the hardest thing to explain about the
Speaker 4: followers is the commitments of members to the cult, especially
Speaker 4: when they remain committed even after the prophecies. When we
Speaker 4: talked about the end days, there's always a or usually
Speaker 4: there is a time specified, so these prophecies turn out
Speaker 4: to be wrong or false. Do you think that's you
Speaker 4: explain that that is the hardest thing to explain about followers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most of the ones that I spoke with that
Speaker 3: were after the fact, after it was all said and done,
Speaker 3: and it never happened the way it was supposed to.
Speaker 3: When you talk with them, a lot of them still
Speaker 3: had the beliefs. They still lived the lifestyle they were taught,
Speaker 3: and some of them even figure they're like David Koresh,
Speaker 3: he's coming back. He's going to return to Earth even
Speaker 3: though he was killed. So they really so they you know,
Speaker 3: there is this point and I know that in the
Speaker 3: last part of the book we talked about brainwashing and
Speaker 3: a lot of the you know, breaking points and stuff,
Speaker 3: and when you come when you look at how they
Speaker 3: can continue on, there has to be a part. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of psychologists suggest that it's just people don't
Speaker 3: want to admit their wrong and there's there's certain terms
Speaker 3: they use that kind of go to that. But I
Speaker 3: think there's more to it. There's something deeper than that
Speaker 3: in a person that would would continue on with that
Speaker 3: sort of belief even though it's you know, it didn't happen.
Speaker 3: So we start have to we have to identify the
Speaker 3: personality the people that are behind that and the ones
Speaker 3: that follow these groups, and you have to start finding
Speaker 3: out more about the characteristics of the people that get
Speaker 3: into cults and why that they get involved. And again
Speaker 3: it's really tough. You know, look how devout people are
Speaker 3: to mainstream religions. Catholic Christian and they they they get
Speaker 3: so involved that everything they do and they their lifestyle
Speaker 3: starts to surround that. That's all there is. So every
Speaker 3: day it's about the church and about their God and
Speaker 3: about living to fulfill that. So their physical life becomes secondary.
Speaker 3: And so I don't know if it's if it's about habit,
Speaker 3: if it's about just you know, where that drops off
Speaker 3: to where they never ever change, doesn't matter who's in
Speaker 3: the church and what the church is doing itself.
Speaker 4: It's interesting too that you write about what happens when
Speaker 4: they recognize things in their leader that they thought were well.
Speaker 4: They find out things about the leader that tarnishes the
Speaker 4: reputation of the church itself and makes them doubt that
Speaker 4: this leader is an all supreme being. So in terms
Speaker 4: of that, let's talk about Jim Jones and the People's
Speaker 4: Temple and the Disciples of Christ nineteen seventy eight, because
Speaker 4: it's very interesting how Jim Jones to all people that
Speaker 4: he encountered, and we will talk about some of the
Speaker 4: the authorities and officials that he charmed with his ideas
Speaker 4: about this utopia, first in America and then later when
Speaker 4: they relocated in Jonestown, especially let's talk about Jim Jones
Speaker 4: and some of the things that he said and used
Speaker 4: to convince people to join him in the People's Temple.
Speaker 3: Well, Jim Jones had, first of all, he was that
Speaker 3: charismic guy. He had that way about him. You know,
Speaker 3: he was practicing preaching when he was just a child,
Speaker 3: and he would preach to trees and forests, and he
Speaker 3: was you know, he was very you know, he was
Speaker 3: just out there. He was the personality. And when he
Speaker 3: started his own church, what he did was he started
Speaker 3: by taking all of the minority groups that were being
Speaker 3: a press at the time, you know, in the sixties
Speaker 3: and the seventies when you had the KKK was at
Speaker 3: their one of their strongest points at that time, and
Speaker 3: was very very out there you might say, they weren't hidden,
Speaker 3: and so there was so much of this going on.
Speaker 3: So he would he would open his doors he wanted
Speaker 3: he welcomed people of color and gay and just everybody
Speaker 3: into the church. And he was one of the first
Speaker 3: to do that because typically the church was was was
Speaker 3: frowning upon, you know, any sort of difference, like either
Speaker 3: you fit in and became how what they wanted, or
Speaker 3: you were not part of them. So he was very
Speaker 3: much into all of this, you know, you know hippies.
Speaker 3: It didn't matter what you what kind of a person
Speaker 3: in that way you were, he wanted you. He wanted
Speaker 3: all of that in there, and you felt very welcomed
Speaker 3: and loving. He was also the first family where met
Speaker 3: him and his wife adopted a black child as as
Speaker 3: their own, and that coused a lot of turmoil. You
Speaker 3: would not believe how much people didn't want to associate
Speaker 3: with you, or they cut you out, or they didn't
Speaker 3: they didn't want to be part of your life because
Speaker 3: of that. That that that made you less of a family.
Speaker 3: And so so he he he caught onto that and
Speaker 3: he really absorbed that and all of the people that
Speaker 3: he could. He was very welcoming and opening and people
Speaker 3: loved that and they felt they were part of a
Speaker 3: real religious movement that cared about them, so they wanted
Speaker 3: to be there. And so this this just grew and
Speaker 3: grew and grew, and.
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Speaker 3: That was really how it began. You know, it was
Speaker 3: pretty amazing. The following he had was just incredible. It
Speaker 3: got to a point where he moved right from this
Speaker 3: all happened in Indiana and Indianapolis actually, and so he
Speaker 3: took them all to California.
Speaker 4: Right now. He endeared himself to people like Harvey Milk
Speaker 4: involved with the City of San Francisco official and the mayor,
Speaker 4: and people were very interested in what seemed to be
Speaker 4: all these happy people, and they had quite a following.
Speaker 4: You say, well over well over one thousand people had
Speaker 4: relocated to this compound that he was conducting. But also
Speaker 4: you say, when you talk about the negative reaction that
Speaker 4: Jones and his family had by adopting that black child
Speaker 4: in his mind, and I don't know if he was
Speaker 4: paranoid or or at least I would have been maybe
Speaker 4: paranoid about this as well. That he thought the CIA
Speaker 4: was watching him and tapping his phones and that his
Speaker 4: food was being poisoned. So I think that certainly he
Speaker 4: was deluded, but that the CIA could have been watching
Speaker 4: him at that time because of his activities. Isn't that
Speaker 4: out isn't that out there if they're watching John Lennon
Speaker 4: and his activities, so that the same time, Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, I think you got
Speaker 3: to remember in the times sixties and seventies, you were
Speaker 3: considered an enemy. You were considered like if you were
Speaker 3: into rock and roll and all of the things that
Speaker 3: they thought were enemy to society and enemy to religion
Speaker 3: in a sense, And so he had that in him.
Speaker 3: People treated him that way when he started to become big,
Speaker 3: and I have to say it's also known that he
Speaker 3: started taking drugs, and the combination of the drugs and
Speaker 3: the way people ostracized him, he became paranoid. He started
Speaker 3: hiring bodyguards, he started sort of separating himself and protecting
Speaker 3: himself because he did think that someone would try to
Speaker 3: kill him. This is also the time that Bobby Kennedy
Speaker 3: was killed, you know, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. So
Speaker 3: this was not a wing that idea to think, oh
Speaker 3: my god, they're going to try and kill me. And
Speaker 3: like you mentioned John Lennon, those were people. Now we
Speaker 3: look back at them and see them as kind of
Speaker 3: they were good people and there were people trying to
Speaker 3: get rights and doing you know, John Lennon and all
Speaker 3: this stuff and singing about love. But back then they
Speaker 3: were they thought these guys are these guys are really destructive.
Speaker 3: We got to protect ourself and protect our children from
Speaker 3: these guys. So he was kind of on that threshold
Speaker 3: in his mind. He put himself up there with people
Speaker 3: like Martin Luther King. So yeah, I could see why
Speaker 3: he would be scared.
Speaker 4: You're right though, that with the People's Temple, he also
Speaker 4: very much of the popularity and the allure, and more
Speaker 4: so in the charisma even is the chicken and trails
Speaker 4: used for audience members. He's healing the sick and had
Speaker 4: a very loving behavior with kids and old people, but
Speaker 4: he was he was tricking them and fooling them and
Speaker 4: trying to pretend he was a person of magic and
Speaker 4: healing people of their illnesses. So this was part of
Speaker 4: the thing. The other he had a couple people, and
Speaker 4: then you write about the Myrtles where they were convinced
Speaker 4: that the Jones had cured their son of a heart
Speaker 4: condition telepathically, and yet at the same time they saw
Speaker 4: a difference when they had joined this group, the discipline
Speaker 4: was getting harsher. He had patted their sixteen year old
Speaker 4: daughter in front of six hundred people, so they saw
Speaker 4: a behavior that they hadn't seen before that was far
Speaker 4: less charismatic as time went on.
Speaker 3: Oh, it was, yeah, And they were a perfect example
Speaker 3: of a family. When he came to California and it
Speaker 3: became like he became like a celebrity, you know, and
Speaker 3: he was hobnobbing with all the famous people and people
Speaker 3: around it at the time, and in San Francisco in California,
Speaker 3: he was popular. So, yeah, they were a typical family
Speaker 3: that sought out to join someone like Jim Jones, and
Speaker 3: the People's Temple not only accepted everybody, but like you said,
Speaker 3: he started doing all these healings in cancer, healing heart conditions,
Speaker 3: and so they would they would come and bring their
Speaker 3: bring their family, bring their kids, and give up everything.
Speaker 3: See that was the trick, you know, they they join
Speaker 3: someone like Jim Jones, they give up their their finances,
Speaker 3: their house, car, everything they had went into the two
Speaker 3: people's temple. So they were they were there, and they
Speaker 3: became sort of trapped within. Uh, they had no means
Speaker 3: to get out. And when you were living amongst a group,
Speaker 3: that's when you were ordered and disciplined by the group himself.
Speaker 3: So yeah, he would if you know, in that particular case,
Speaker 3: he thought their their daughter had kissed another girl and
Speaker 3: was perhaps a lesbian, so he he actually, yeah, spanked her.
Speaker 3: And there's it became very strict within the community. You know.
Speaker 3: He still had a communist sort of point of view
Speaker 3: that you know, the commune lives together and we do
Speaker 3: everything together and everything goes into one. And with that
Speaker 3: came the discipline because if you stepped out of line,
Speaker 3: you were going to be taught not to and so yeah,
Speaker 3: it was very strict, and so people gotten into it,
Speaker 3: but they felt trapped once they got in.
Speaker 4: You talk about feeling trapped. We talk about in all
Speaker 4: of these cults, the idea that someone would defect or
Speaker 4: someone would criticize the leader or want to leave is
Speaker 4: not good for the business of this cult, of this group.
Speaker 4: It's especially evident in the James and Jim Jones' story
Speaker 4: here when you talk about that Myrtle couple and their daughter.
Speaker 4: They eventually left in nineteen seventy four, and of course
Speaker 4: they became vocal opponents of Jones, which wasn't good, and
Speaker 4: they eventually opened what you write the Human Freedom Center
Speaker 4: to help cult defectors and People's Temple survivors. However, in
Speaker 4: February nineteen eighty, the Myrtles and their daughter were found
Speaker 4: murdered in their home and no one was ever arrested.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was you know, it was an obvious
Speaker 3: case of being taken out and we don't really know
Speaker 3: how it happened in the sense if it was Jim
Speaker 3: Jones or someone that worked for him or what happened there.
Speaker 3: But for people that really loved Jones and People's Temple
Speaker 3: and they felt threatened by what this group was doing,
Speaker 3: it's question mark. But again that was the start of
Speaker 3: the tension that family and when they left and started
Speaker 3: a group against Jim Jones and the People's Temple it
Speaker 3: really made Jim Jones paranoid and it really put him
Speaker 3: on edge. And there was also articles that started coming out,
Speaker 3: you know, New West Magazine and even the Rolling Stone.
Speaker 3: There was a few different articles that were quite negative
Speaker 3: and they talked to people that were in that group,
Speaker 3: people that had left and escaped it, so to speak.
Speaker 3: And so it was pretty damning. And so that was
Speaker 3: the time when Jim Jones wasn't sure what he was
Speaker 3: going to do. He at first he started doing the
Speaker 3: suicide a little you know, I guess drills, you would
Speaker 3: call them, right, he would, you know, he would give
Speaker 3: them all wine and then tell them all you've drank
Speaker 3: poison and you're going to die, and just see the reactions.
Speaker 3: And he wasn't really happy with the reactions, and that
Speaker 3: was sort of what led him to search out a
Speaker 3: different country to take his followers too. So that was
Speaker 3: kind of the beginning of the end. Really.
Speaker 4: Yes, as many people know that a Congressman le O'Ryan
Speaker 4: from San Matteo County was concerned about some of the
Speaker 4: reports and so he mobilized a delegation but really didn't
Speaker 4: take it that seriously. Obviously people know about this murder here,
Speaker 4: but he went to Guana to see and it's fascinating,
Speaker 4: you know, the image where they are in this in
Speaker 4: this hall and they're having a festive time and dancing
Speaker 4: and singing and people seemingly happy. But eventually reporters find
Speaker 4: some people that have something to say negative and Jim
Speaker 4: Jones is put on the spot in front of reporters
Speaker 4: about some people wanted to leave, and he said, well,
Speaker 4: you know, that's fine, that's okay, and then one of
Speaker 4: the followers took things into his own hands and the
Speaker 4: slaughter ensued. It's interesting how especially, I think, for people
Speaker 4: that just that's one of the very first cases of
Speaker 4: cults and the master that it ensues. And it's interesting
Speaker 4: to think how many people thought that this was a
Speaker 4: fantastic idea, this was a great guy, and even this
Speaker 4: Congressman Leo Ryan seemed to not know that they were
Speaker 4: going into something that they may never ever return from.
Speaker 4: It's fascinating, really.
Speaker 3: Oh totally. It was one of those situations where you
Speaker 3: look at you so they come over for a reason
Speaker 3: and they believe they're going to be in this great
Speaker 3: commune and everyone's going to be happy, They're all going
Speaker 3: to work, could share and live together and yeah, what
Speaker 3: happened actually and why this sort of happened was some
Speaker 3: of the people that didn't go, but their children went
Speaker 3: with let's say one of the spouses and they were
Speaker 3: back in America and they decided, well, I want my
Speaker 3: child back. And then they found out that there was
Speaker 3: no extradition treaty with Guyana, so they couldn't get their
Speaker 3: kids back. They started getting worried, and then the rumors
Speaker 3: started coming out, and so that's why Congressman Leo went
Speaker 3: and so when he was there, at first everything was
Speaker 3: presented in a great way. They thought, well, you know,
Speaker 3: this is great, and then they started getting The first
Speaker 3: thing was the note that they received saying that there
Speaker 3: was some people that wanted to leave, and that kind
Speaker 3: of started it. And between Jim Jones being put on
Speaker 3: the spot like with the media as well as doing
Speaker 3: he was doing heavy, heavy drugs at the time he
Speaker 3: was in to look at the old films. He was
Speaker 3: just stoned out of his mind. And so you know,
Speaker 3: when Congressman was leaving and taking a lot of the members,
Speaker 3: he couldn't have that. So that was the beginning of
Speaker 3: let's kill everyone. We're all going to do a revolutionary suicide,
Speaker 3: sent his money to Russia and things like that, and
Speaker 3: that was really Yeah, that was the first huge impact
Speaker 3: where you have like nine hundred followers that ended up dead,
Speaker 3: nine hundred and twelve, I believe, And it was a
Speaker 3: shock to the world, and I think it was a
Speaker 3: shock to a lot of people that one man can
Speaker 3: have so much influence and power over a thousand people
Speaker 3: that they're all going to end up dead, and that
Speaker 3: I think that shocked at the time, definitely, you know,
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy eight, it shocked the world, and I
Speaker 3: was surprised. And why I added this one because there's
Speaker 3: a lot of attention about Jim Jones, but he has
Speaker 3: the perfect you know, he did it. He did it
Speaker 3: the perfect way of getting the followers and doing all
Speaker 3: the things like he was really really good at what
Speaker 3: he did. Why I put him in was because I
Speaker 3: couldn't believe how many people of the new generation have
Speaker 3: no idea who Jim Jones was, had no idea about
Speaker 3: the religious movement idea, and how people would follow and
Speaker 3: fall into this trap and ended up dead like this
Speaker 3: in a mass proportion, And there are so many people
Speaker 3: that had no clue of it. And it really surprised
Speaker 3: me of how many times when I was out talking
Speaker 3: and people were like, no, who is Jim Jones. I
Speaker 3: was like, wow, one as I know, I'm getting old.
Speaker 3: But the other thing was, yeah, this was huge. But
Speaker 3: we've got to realize that this was seventy eight. You know,
Speaker 3: in that area, a lot of these people that were
Speaker 3: born in the nineties or even in the two thousands
Speaker 3: here they weren't even alive and they have no clue.
Speaker 4: It's interesting PostScript that one of Governor Ryan's aides that
Speaker 4: were shot on the tarmac and shot numerous times, survived,
Speaker 4: this Jackie Spear, and fascinatingly, she becomes She takes over
Speaker 4: governor the assassinated Governor Ryan's old seat in Congress and
Speaker 4: is still there as you write. It's just fascinating. Let's
Speaker 4: talk about a less familiar, a less known crime, but
Speaker 4: people have heard of it. Let's talk about the Tokyo
Speaker 4: subway attack and the March twentieth, nineteen ninety five. Tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit about this attack and Shoko Asahara.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was a unique character, but he
Speaker 3: was he was the guru of the group, the Supreme
Speaker 3: Truth or am Shinrinkio, and he was the leader, and
Speaker 3: he again he thought that there was going to be
Speaker 3: a big armageddon, a big war between I believe, the
Speaker 3: United States and Japan. And he had all of these ideas,
Speaker 3: and so for some reason he was going to lead
Speaker 3: his group into you know, it's still always sort of
Speaker 3: you know, you believe there's going to be an end
Speaker 3: of the world, you know, a race, war or some
Speaker 3: sort of armageddon, but you've got to go and either
Speaker 3: start it or intimidate it, or do something to create
Speaker 3: an event. And you being you know, some prophet or
Speaker 3: some relation to God and so and your survivors or
Speaker 3: your followers believe that, so you go in to do
Speaker 3: these things, you know. So that's kind of the Tokyo Russia.
Speaker 3: Our subway thing was to go in and and kill
Speaker 3: a lot of people. And so, you know, this was
Speaker 3: not the first time that they attacked with some sort
Speaker 3: of nerve gas or agent. And so this was when
Speaker 3: five of them, the members jumped on and became militant.
Speaker 3: So they decided that they were going to put their
Speaker 3: double bag and full of nerve gas was saren saren gas,
Speaker 3: which was something that they were using then and before
Speaker 3: they got off the train, they would stick it with
Speaker 3: their umbrella and it would release the gas. And so
Speaker 3: they did that just after eight in the morning. And
Speaker 3: so that's how it happened. And of course it didn't
Speaker 3: it didn't get the effect that they wanted. The leader
Speaker 3: wanted a mass killing, and I believe it only killed twelve,
Speaker 3: but there was thousands that were hospitalized and thousands a
Speaker 3: lot of people that were hurt from this, and so
Speaker 3: it wasn't but it wasn't what he planned. And this
Speaker 3: wasn't the first one. Like I said, he had done
Speaker 3: a few others, or attempted a few others, and it
Speaker 3: was it was just it was a crazy situation. And
Speaker 3: it all started with him giving yoga classes, you know,
Speaker 3: and meditation, and it all grew out of that. He
Speaker 3: with that, he started giving them his truths or his beliefs,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 4: You talk about too that what he had claimed that
Speaker 4: he was a chosen from Christ to lead God's army
Speaker 4: during the coming armageddon at the end of the century.
Speaker 4: He predicted nineteen ninety seven, and he said that the
Speaker 4: war would be initiated, like you mentioned, by the US,
Speaker 4: a nuclear armageddon. They would have packed Japan. Of course
Speaker 4: he saw kinds of conspiracies, but he also saw all
Speaker 4: kinds of conspiracies at the same time that it must
Speaker 4: have been very stressful because it was an anti cult
Speaker 4: lawyer who had had success prosecuting the Moonies, the Unification Church,
Speaker 4: and so this Sakamoto lawyer attorney was starting class action lawsuits.
Speaker 4: So this, it always seems to with the Jones case
Speaker 4: as well. His agitation and stress and stress levels by
Speaker 4: virtue of people complaining and people asking questions, people defecting
Speaker 4: creates a drug use in Jones's case, but in this
Speaker 4: particular case it ends up in far more erratic behavior
Speaker 4: and again with the clock ticking, they do things that
Speaker 4: are are going to ask the group to do something
Speaker 4: with suicide. When you talk about these groups and apocalyptic,
Speaker 4: let's talk about this subway attack and if these people
Speaker 4: had any kind of suicide pact in terms of and
Speaker 4: what was their description of their apocalyptic future.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, some with this particular group, not all
Speaker 3: of them were thinking of suicide, certainly not when they
Speaker 3: were doing what they were doing. They had they had
Speaker 3: a goal in mind and they had to survive in
Speaker 3: order to do that. In other cases, there were ones
Speaker 3: that knew they had to commit suicide or they had
Speaker 3: to die with the situation. So there was a combo
Speaker 3: there there was. It depended on who in which part
Speaker 3: of the group. So with these killings it was or attacks,
Speaker 3: it was meant to create something else, it was meant
Speaker 3: to start something or you know, like even with Charles
Speaker 3: Manson again, you you are going to start something or
Speaker 3: get it going, and you're a God's army, so you're
Speaker 3: going you're part of the fixer up crew. You're part
Speaker 3: of the crew that's going to come and start the
Speaker 3: world over or guide the survivors into the new world
Speaker 3: or new future. So it's a combination on whether they're
Speaker 3: going to commit suicide or not. And when they went
Speaker 3: after Sakamoto, it was because he, uh, one of the
Speaker 3: things was the leader of the am was was supposed
Speaker 3: to have you know, superpowers and stuff. He could he
Speaker 3: could float in the air, and they had his blood
Speaker 3: right and they said it was it was powerful to
Speaker 3: have his blood, and so they had to kill him.
Speaker 3: So that because he was not only the lawsuit, but
Speaker 3: he was actually going to really proved that this guy
Speaker 3: had no power and he couldn't he couldn't you know
Speaker 3: he couldn't face that in the public.
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Speaker 4: I asked you about the idea of a suicide pact
Speaker 4: involved in any of these apocalyptic ideas and prophecies and
Speaker 4: sermons that they gave to their followers, and what leads
Speaker 4: me to the talking about the Order of the Solar
Speaker 4: Temple and Joseph de Mambro and Luke Juri nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 4: let's talk about the Solar Temple and the difference the
Speaker 4: ideas behind the Solar Temple. What they thought they were
Speaker 4: and why tell us a little bit about these two
Speaker 4: people that formed this incredibly deadly Order of the Solar Temple.
Speaker 3: Well, they had more. They had. Their idea was kind
Speaker 3: of a renewed order of the Solar temples, you know,
Speaker 3: the templars, you know, the protectors of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3: And so that was kind of what they were doing.
Speaker 3: That was the original premise. But the thing is they
Speaker 3: kind of had more of a neo Nazi influence on
Speaker 3: that because of who they were. So they took some
Speaker 3: of the original temple traditions and they mixed in some
Speaker 3: of the supremacy and the ideas of that and that
Speaker 3: kind of you kind of really give a real screwy
Speaker 3: sort of idea. So they they kind of took what
Speaker 3: they wanted from from both and led their followers that way.
Speaker 3: You know, the you know, the foundation of the Golden
Speaker 3: Way was their their how they started to to create
Speaker 3: their their thoughts. So they had groups all over the place.
Speaker 3: They had them in Switzerland, they had it in Italy,
Speaker 3: UK Canada and Australia.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 3: Their their their ideas were again, yeah, end times and
Speaker 3: things were things were going to end, and those leaders
Speaker 3: were very influential in what they wanted. And they had
Speaker 3: a lot of rituals together. So they would do meetings
Speaker 3: and they would have ritualistic sex and massage and do
Speaker 3: all these things together in the nude. It was almost
Speaker 3: like pagan in a sense, but it wasn't. But they
Speaker 3: directed this. They would tell them what to do and
Speaker 3: people would all join. They had to give up everything again,
Speaker 3: it's the same tradition. You give up all your house,
Speaker 3: your money, car, anything if you own, and you become
Speaker 3: part of the group and you get initiated in some
Speaker 3: sort of one of these rituals, and that was it.
Speaker 3: So the game was on. The unfortunate thing was this
Speaker 3: was more of a suicide group, and in their adition
Speaker 3: or their idea was you had to die by fire.
Speaker 3: So when they had rituals to kill themselves, they would
Speaker 3: all get into a certain group in that and they
Speaker 3: would burn themselves to death. That was the original idea
Speaker 3: of their ending. So and again it's the same thing.
Speaker 3: They took the idea of going getting members by going
Speaker 3: town to town and doing seminars and doing trainings, and
Speaker 3: they it was all homeopathic. It was all natural, organic
Speaker 3: foods and inspirational tapes and new age and that was
Speaker 3: kind of a mat so they all sort of it's
Speaker 3: kind of you know, their techniques changed throughout the groups,
Speaker 3: but they you know, they get something, you know, whether
Speaker 3: it's Jim Jones saying yes, we like blacks, we like gays.
Speaker 3: Come on in. You're all welcome here, You're part of us.
Speaker 3: Whether you're selling traditional you know, eat eat this certain way,
Speaker 3: or whether you're doing yoga and meditation. It all starts
Speaker 3: out was quite an innocent and quite a friendly group,
Speaker 3: and people feel very welcomed and they get involved in
Speaker 3: these groups, and somewhere along the lines they get so
Speaker 3: indoctrinated that they can't leave or they have no means
Speaker 3: to leave, and then it goes into something that's quite ugly,
Speaker 3: whether they're burning themselves in a ritual or killing themselves
Speaker 3: or it's just all or whether they'll die for the
Speaker 3: group themselves like David Koresh or something, whether they're willing
Speaker 3: to just fight, fight for the right to do what
Speaker 3: they do until they're dead. You know, it's kind of
Speaker 3: one of those things, and it always ends that way.
Speaker 3: But once they're in and involved and they're so they're
Speaker 3: living the life style from doing it over and over again,
Speaker 3: they either can't leave, won't leave, or they don't want
Speaker 3: to leave, and they get sucked into this energy that's
Speaker 3: going to going to kill them.
Speaker 4: You're right about in this, and it seems it's consistent
Speaker 4: with all of these when things I mentioned, when things
Speaker 4: get stressful, when people start complaining, when the focus although
Speaker 4: the spotlight is on the group, the leaders become much
Speaker 4: more paranoid and erratic behavior, and things change. In nineteen ninety, Dimambro,
Speaker 4: one of the founders, his son Eli, He's a twenty
Speaker 4: four year old. He's outspoken about his father, and he
Speaker 4: was claiming that his father had faithd rituals using holograms
Speaker 4: and laser lights and sound effects. And so if a
Speaker 4: bunch of members fifteen members leave and also now this
Speaker 4: idea that his claims he's using again, he's claiming that
Speaker 4: he's telepathic. He's again a healer. Gerre and Dimambro have
Speaker 4: all kinds of money and properties, but those property values
Speaker 4: in the eighties, with that recession in the early eighties,
Speaker 4: these property values are plummeting. So with headline news, you
Speaker 4: write in March ninety three, after this month in nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety where Demambro's son is speaking out about his father.
Speaker 4: In ninety three, they make headline news and three members
Speaker 4: including Jerre or two members plus array are arrested or
Speaker 4: trying to buy guns with silencers. Tell us what happens
Speaker 4: after that as a result.
Speaker 3: Well, with that, of course came with investigations. So you
Speaker 3: get FBI, and you've got all these RCMP kind of
Speaker 3: their kind of background group that investigates start tapping their
Speaker 3: phones and following them around and stuff like that. And
Speaker 3: with that they started finding out their plans to bomb,
Speaker 3: like for the First Nation's reserves, and they wanted to
Speaker 3: blow up in Canada the Quebec hydro tower transmission towers,
Speaker 3: and so they started they had these real they were
Speaker 3: getting into the aggressive attacks, but again with the Sun
Speaker 3: outspoking it, it started making them really scared. And when
Speaker 3: some of the members were arrested for the gun charges,
Speaker 3: they were worried about not getting in and out of
Speaker 3: the different countries. Right, So it was again the beginning
Speaker 3: of the end. It was where they were starting to
Speaker 3: lose their control, lose their funds, lose their power, lose
Speaker 3: their money, and that's always the start of where something's
Speaker 3: going to happen. And so that's when by nineteen four,
Speaker 3: late nineteen ninety four, that's when the first sect of
Speaker 3: this group decided to commit suicide, and that was in Switzerland,
Speaker 3: and so it just that's it always goes that way.
Speaker 3: The direction and why they do what they do is
Speaker 3: sometimes different, but if you look at every one of
Speaker 3: these groups has the same sort of pattern and it's
Speaker 3: just it's just amazing to watch the transitions, and it's
Speaker 3: always the same and they all get it seems to
Speaker 3: start out so innocent. The people that join, and that's
Speaker 3: kind of one of the big key things. The people
Speaker 3: that join these there's usually the same the same sort
Speaker 3: of characteristics. You know, they're people that need to feel validated.
Speaker 3: They're seeking an identity, you know, they're they're they're sort
Speaker 3: of their followers or not leaders. There's there's some sort
Speaker 3: of that they're looking for a purpose and meaning of
Speaker 3: why they're here and why there's life and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So you know with that they're looking for something good.
Speaker 3: So whether you have some meditation and yoga, or whether
Speaker 3: you have counseling or you have the tapes that you
Speaker 3: know help you self esteem and things like that, and
Speaker 3: like this group you're talking about with the Order where
Speaker 3: you know it's all natural, homeopathic living and get away
Speaker 3: from all those modern things and they're killing you. Right.
Speaker 3: So it's and and people get into it, and like
Speaker 3: I said, it starts out really really mild, and then
Speaker 3: it gets to a point where the leaders or the
Speaker 3: people running the group gets get some sort of challenge
Speaker 3: or they start to run out of money or they're
Speaker 3: running out of time, so to speak, because things are
Speaker 3: falling apart, and that's when they kind of push the
Speaker 3: button and get the initiate the suicide or the killing
Speaker 3: or the devastation that ends up taking the group out.
Speaker 3: And it's the same patterns all the way through.
Speaker 4: You talk about the same patterns, but this is an
Speaker 4: incredible day. October fifth, nineteen ninety four. You say that
Speaker 4: the suicide packs begin here. Farmhouse in Switzerland is on fire.
Speaker 4: Inside police find the body of Albert Giacobano and he
Speaker 4: was shot. And it was a pulpit found in the
Speaker 4: apartment and a pentagram drawn on the floor. Hanging over
Speaker 4: the pulpit was a picture of Jesus Christ, but instead
Speaker 4: of Jesus's face was a photo or a photo of Lacxurie,
Speaker 4: the co founder of this solar temple. Here so around
Speaker 4: the base of the pulpit, in a sunburst design, were
Speaker 4: twenty three bodies, ten men and twelve women, including Dimambro's
Speaker 4: daughter who was twelve years old, all wearing white, various uniforms,
Speaker 4: empty champagne bottles everywhere. Half the bodies had plastic bodies
Speaker 4: bags over their heads. Some had had their hands tied
Speaker 4: behind their backs. Some had been shot, some up to
Speaker 4: eight times. A mayor, a journalist, and a civil servant
Speaker 4: were found dead in this room. Meanwhile, fifty miles away,
Speaker 4: three chalets were burning inside twenty five bodies, five children
Speaker 4: badly burned. None were shot, but they had plastic bags
Speaker 4: over their heads. Some had been beaten, but most were
Speaker 4: sedated by drugs. Some left suicide notes basically talking about
Speaker 4: how hypocritical the world and oppressive the world was in
Speaker 4: those suicide notes. Later that same day, a house owned
Speaker 4: by the Solar Temple exploded in the basement. Dimambro chauffeur,
Speaker 4: his wife, and their three months son. Three month old
Speaker 4: son was found now the plastic bag was over his
Speaker 4: head and a wooden steak was pounded through his heart.
Speaker 4: They believed he was the anti Christ. So, as you
Speaker 4: mentioned about, it started off innocent, and it really does
Speaker 4: start off incredibly innocent with homeopathy, and that's where they
Speaker 4: were recruiting from that office, and then organic organic produce,
Speaker 4: organic farming to this to that end. If it's over
Speaker 4: the end.
Speaker 3: You know, and that's well, and they have that idea,
Speaker 3: you know, they're talked into the idea so this was ritual.
Speaker 3: They had to you know, the lay in a certain
Speaker 3: way and just like Jim Jones there, you know, revolutionary suicide.
Speaker 3: But then when it comes to the point where they're
Speaker 3: actually doing it, some people are scared and they won't
Speaker 3: do it. They refuse, so then they have to be
Speaker 3: forced into it. So in that case that you know,
Speaker 3: they would shoot them, and even in this case they
Speaker 3: had to tie them up and some of them had
Speaker 3: to be shot several times. And so they were put
Speaker 3: in the right position in the ritual and they would
Speaker 3: go through with it. So if you get scared and
Speaker 3: you don't want to do it, then they force it
Speaker 3: to happen and do it. So it gets to a
Speaker 3: point where they've gone too far and they can't get out,
Speaker 3: and you know, and then they're told like in this
Speaker 3: space you know what, they're going to the planet serious,
Speaker 3: right when they die of fiery death on Earth. That's
Speaker 3: you know, just like Heaven's Gate. You know, you get
Speaker 3: the spaceship and you're going to the next level on
Speaker 3: a new planet. And it's always the same sort of
Speaker 3: it just gets tweaked or it's different. You know, they
Speaker 3: get it from other religions or other groups. It usually
Speaker 3: comes from some sort of religious belief. And that's really
Speaker 3: the key to this because it's the kind of the
Speaker 3: extra thing needed to get someone to join. You know.
Speaker 3: It's one thing to have the meditation or that, or
Speaker 3: the you know, the healthy eating or you know, and
Speaker 3: things like that to catch people that have them come
Speaker 3: visit you or to let you in their house. But
Speaker 3: it's the next thing is when you have you know,
Speaker 3: some sort of you know, Christ or Catholic or something
Speaker 3: like that behind you. It puts people at ease to think, well,
Speaker 3: you know, this is okay. It's kind of that extra
Speaker 3: confident building thing that they need to make feel comfortable
Speaker 3: enough to get involved in the group. And that's kind
Speaker 3: of with all of them. That's sort of they what
Speaker 3: happens and then see it over and over again.
Speaker 4: Well, very much like you see now the rise of
Speaker 4: profiteering religious people leaders doing Bible interpretation. We'll just say,
Speaker 4: for example, in the US, we don't even have to
Speaker 4: mention any names. I don't want to offend anybody that
Speaker 4: listens to anyone. But what I'm talking about is the
Speaker 4: incredible amount of money that can be raised through mainstream
Speaker 4: religions not so mainstream religions, televang evangelical people on television
Speaker 4: and otherwise on the internet. At this time with the
Speaker 4: Solar Temple, there was rumors of millions of dollars in
Speaker 4: the Swiss bank account. But again very bizarre that within
Speaker 4: that just basic hustle for money, because they very much
Speaker 4: like Scientology I find with this story was that they
Speaker 4: were there was different levels, but different levels based on
Speaker 4: how much money you had, how much money you contributed,
Speaker 4: you know, and the and very much like the scientologists too.
Speaker 4: When you see a cult previously say looking and targeting
Speaker 4: wealthy people, again you see that in Scientology, which is
Speaker 4: again for lack of better is a main well, I
Speaker 4: wouldn't say it's a religious classified.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it spends what country you're and and
Speaker 3: that's true. Some countries classify it as religions, some don't,
Speaker 3: and the different well, the one difference with the scientology
Speaker 3: is it's not they're not it's not the end of
Speaker 3: the world today and we're not going into kill mode,
Speaker 3: you know. That is one difference, but you're right in
Speaker 3: the other there's it's a never ending achievement of levels
Speaker 3: that you know, you know it'll take your life to
Speaker 3: get there, and and it was perfect with the Order
Speaker 3: of the Solar Temple because because they were into the healthy, organic,
Speaker 3: natural lifestyle and all that you know, homeo past or stuff.
Speaker 3: It's perfect because you get a lot of the trendy
Speaker 3: people that are willing to pay a membership and to
Speaker 3: be put in class distinctions, you know, whether you know
Speaker 3: how good you are. So it was perfect to have
Speaker 3: levels that you charge to get people to come in,
Speaker 3: and then levels to help people as they grow. And
Speaker 3: it's kind of a nice thing because people are always
Speaker 3: trying to achieve or become better, especially if they're joining
Speaker 3: a group to find some sort of meaning. So it's
Speaker 3: kind of the perfect scenario, if you will. And so
Speaker 3: the Order Order the Solar Temple did it the best
Speaker 3: in that way.
Speaker 4: Well, it's also very easy to or much easier to
Speaker 4: attract followers when you have almost the endorsement of a
Speaker 4: wealthy or popular or yeah, wealthy or popular famous person
Speaker 4: does a lot of recruiting for you, I believe.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and that's the idea. You know, you get
Speaker 3: someone in there, and it's great grace, Kelly. In this case,
Speaker 3: you look at different groups. In scientology. You mentioned there's
Speaker 3: a lot of celebrities that have been in there, and
Speaker 3: you know, Tom Cruise is the most popular, and that's
Speaker 3: very good for their image. It's good for the group overall.
Speaker 3: You see someone that's really successful in whatever they do,
Speaker 3: like him. It's a successful movie maker and movie star
Speaker 3: and lots of money and he believes in it, so
Speaker 3: people will think, well, it must be okay if he's
Speaker 3: in it, right, And you know that's backfired lately with things.
Speaker 3: But in general, celebrity is great to have part of
Speaker 3: the group or the cult religion.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. When I mentioned too, was the was it the
Speaker 4: end of the Solar Temple? But in December ninety five,
Speaker 4: sixteen members of the Solar Temple were found in Grenoble, France.
Speaker 4: In ninety seven, five members burned to death in a
Speaker 4: house owned by Solar Temple in Quebec, and all of
Speaker 4: the suicide murders all occurred on the same dates of
Speaker 4: the annual equinoxes or solstices. So this is very very
Speaker 4: interesting how this even despite all this failure for these prophecies,
Speaker 4: and despite all of the scandal, that seems to be
Speaker 4: again for anyone that would to scratch the surface looking
Speaker 4: for evidence and yet still people want to belong. Let's
Speaker 4: talk about Heaven's Gate and March ninety seven and Marshall Applewhite,
Speaker 4: leader of Heavens Gate, he led thirty eight of his
Speaker 4: followers to suicide, and he talked about bodies just being
Speaker 4: tainers for souls and for souls to be. Tell us
Speaker 4: about his suicide and his ideas about the soul and
Speaker 4: how he freed people or was freeing for people to
Speaker 4: to die. Tell us a little bit about these bizarre ideas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. It's again, we're back in the same idea.
Speaker 3: You know, he he was so unhappy with himself and
Speaker 3: and apparently he had homosexual feelings and he had some
Speaker 3: some problems with with that and being Presbyterian at the time,
Speaker 3: and and I guess so he you know, his idea,
Speaker 3: he had to so he castrated himself down the road.
Speaker 3: And then he starts out with the with the group
Speaker 3: and yeah, you're going to be transported, you know, you're
Speaker 3: going to get on an alien craft and and and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, leave the earth and and move into the
Speaker 3: next level. So it's just this whole idea of becoming
Speaker 3: something better. And he's he's the leader, and he's the
Speaker 3: one that's going to take you to the next level. Again,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's it's kind of a it's a different,
Speaker 3: different take on it, but it's the same sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So after he met his wife, Bonnie Nettles, they got
Speaker 3: married and they became the beginning of the end, you know.
Speaker 3: And again they were pushed into it. It wasn't going
Speaker 3: to happen the way they wanted it so soon. But
Speaker 3: it's it's, you know, every one of these when you
Speaker 3: go through them, if if you take out even you know,
Speaker 3: the personalities, the personalities of these leaders or or and
Speaker 3: their their concept, it's all much the same. They just
Speaker 3: have slight tweaks, and the type of people they look
Speaker 3: for they aim for can be different, but they you know,
Speaker 3: they they take them down the same road and into
Speaker 3: the same you know, and it's it's it's, you know,
Speaker 3: you want to reach back and scream at people. But
Speaker 3: so these guys ended up being called like a UFO religion,
Speaker 3: you know, in a way when you bring up scientology,
Speaker 3: it's the same sort of concept of becoming your own
Speaker 3: God and and getting your own planet. So you can
Speaker 3: see how they relate to each other and how they
Speaker 3: take ideas from other more more popular mainstream religions.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. Yeah, and certainly with this as well. What's
Speaker 4: you talk about it? Originally they thought this spacecraft tella
Speaker 4: was going to come and tick them up. But then
Speaker 4: they get put in a position where the plans have
Speaker 4: to change and the prophecy has to change, and now
Speaker 4: it's a suicide pact. Now it's drugs and suicide. And
Speaker 4: then again, very much like all of the other ones
Speaker 4: that you use as examples, not everybody is willing. So
Speaker 4: there's the or this ineffective way of killing themselves, even
Speaker 4: in this case where they have to suffocate themselves because
Speaker 4: the method was ineffective.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because the way he wanted them to kill himself
Speaker 3: was not what It didn't really work, and it just
Speaker 3: caused problems. You know, it just hurt them, it didn't
Speaker 3: It's just ridiculous. You know, again, you have people that
Speaker 3: don't really understand the science behind what they're doing and
Speaker 3: they just tell their followers to do something and something's
Speaker 3: going to happen, and then it ends up like this. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: you're right.
Speaker 4: And for those people that say too that you know,
Speaker 4: we talk about ridiculous ideas because in retrospect, everything seems ridiculous,
Speaker 4: but from the circumstances in which this person was convinced
Speaker 4: by this charismatic person employing a lot of the techniques,
Speaker 4: whether they've self learned or they learned from reading about
Speaker 4: these people are masters at taking identifying vulnerable people and
Speaker 4: using a combination of convincing them that they are superior,
Speaker 4: they are chosen one and or have the key to life,
Speaker 4: the key to fining their meaning for life, and again
Speaker 4: the validation them belonging to again an elite group. All
Speaker 4: of these groups are elite groups that are enlightened in
Speaker 4: an elite way that not everyone knows of this message
Speaker 4: and has this benefit of this unique leader to lead them,
Speaker 4: but all of them, when we talk about this Solar Temple,
Speaker 4: everybody knows Star Trek and Lute and at Wahura and
Speaker 4: the brother of Nichelle Nichols on that series was so
Speaker 4: influenced again by watching Star Trek and Star Wars, but
Speaker 4: also just being one of those vulnerable people. He was
Speaker 4: one of those people in one of those suicide videos
Speaker 4: for the Solar Temple, wasn't he?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And you know, even Apple White he called this
Speaker 3: group the oat. You know, you could. You know, you
Speaker 3: couldn't be anymore directly taking from a TV show, right,
Speaker 3: It's just you know, I guess I guess what it
Speaker 3: is is you're right people. And it's not meant to
Speaker 3: be in jest toward people that end up in these groups,
Speaker 3: because I've met a lot of them, and some of
Speaker 3: them are super people. It's just at the time, it
Speaker 3: was what they needed and and it happened. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's easy to look back, like you said, and see
Speaker 3: these things and kind of go, well, that's ridiculous, but
Speaker 3: it's it's the book really. That's why I have two
Speaker 3: chapters specifically on the things that happen and what happens
Speaker 3: to people when they get involved, and you know, the
Speaker 3: brainwashing and the indoctrinations and the different and even how
Speaker 3: hard it is to get out of it and that.
Speaker 3: So those are really key important things. This isn't just
Speaker 3: a book that is, oh, look how silly these people
Speaker 3: are and look what you know, stupid things they did.
Speaker 3: It's it's more realistic. It's about looking at people that
Speaker 3: are in some sort of transitional time in their life
Speaker 3: for whatever the reason, and they're open to some sort
Speaker 3: of group or suggestion or they need some sort of
Speaker 3: support system, and along comes of group that's very loving,
Speaker 3: that has a lot of techniques and I ideas that
Speaker 3: actually help these people, and they become part of the
Speaker 3: group because they feel loved and a lot of the
Speaker 3: other people in the group are in the same place
Speaker 3: they are, so it works because you're in amongst others
Speaker 3: that also have sort of the same needs, and you
Speaker 3: become kind of like a family. And so it's it's
Speaker 3: really easy to get involved in this and get part,
Speaker 3: make it part of your life, and it helps them
Speaker 3: in a lot of cases. But it's just where it
Speaker 3: goes down the road. And of course there's no way
Speaker 3: they're going to know that, you know at the time,
Speaker 3: because everybody seems so good, so friendly, and it's just
Speaker 3: it's just it's a transitional thing. So it's really important
Speaker 3: to look at, you know, the people that get involved
Speaker 3: and why and what and the things that we can
Speaker 3: do to help people try to get up of the
Speaker 3: groups as well and be supportive rather than judgmental.
Speaker 4: You talk about vulnerability too, and also we talk about
Speaker 4: the times where there was a lot of talk. It
Speaker 4: seems very similar to now where we talk not so
Speaker 4: much end times, but a cataclismic climate change. At that time,
Speaker 4: pollution was an issue. So people that had gone through university,
Speaker 4: there was a revolution basically in thought, and so you
Speaker 4: had that atmosphere very much like you have now, but
Speaker 4: you had that atmosphere contributing to people that were good
Speaker 4: kids that thought that they should go through religious training,
Speaker 4: were very religious, but then were disillusioned and then as
Speaker 4: a result, were vulnerable. But also the practices of buying
Speaker 4: far these con men, because all of them were conmin
Speaker 4: that these people then were they'd employed brainwashing techniques, which
Speaker 4: include like in Jim Jones' case, where they worked all
Speaker 4: day when they once they got to Guyana. When they
Speaker 4: got to Guana, not only did they give up their
Speaker 4: their possessions, but they also gave up their passports so
Speaker 4: they couldn't leave or it was very difficult to leave.
Speaker 4: And so they also were fed rice three times a day.
Speaker 4: So you could see that they were worked hard, indoctrinated
Speaker 4: with films about Russia because that was their end goal
Speaker 4: was to go to Russia. And so they were worked hard,
Speaker 4: kept together, kept busy, and fed just rice each day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think that's kind of the key
Speaker 3: and whether the leader is a con then as you
Speaker 3: as as said, or whether they really believe and are
Speaker 3: mentally in trouble. It's hard to say, right, you know,
Speaker 3: the problem with Jim Jones was you know, he seemed
Speaker 3: like a real loving nice guy in the beginning, and
Speaker 3: is it the drug and the suspicion and was it
Speaker 3: also the end?
Speaker 2: Go.
Speaker 3: That's a lot of times they have this really wild
Speaker 3: idea of how it's supposed to end, like you say,
Speaker 3: end up in Russia and end up in a commune
Speaker 3: and loving and all this stuff. But in order to
Speaker 3: get there, if it's not going to happen, or if
Speaker 3: it's not happening the way they want it, they there
Speaker 3: comes a big, severe ending where they're all dead, you know,
Speaker 3: like it's all because Jim Jones couldn't make that dream
Speaker 3: come true. It was going to be the end. And
Speaker 3: so it's kind of a you know, you have to
Speaker 3: wonder with someone like that if they really believed in
Speaker 3: what they spoke or or if they did it just
Speaker 3: to make money. He's saying cases like that, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think the order of the Solar Temple was that
Speaker 3: those guys were about money and finance, and they didn't
Speaker 3: believe a lot of what they put out there. But
Speaker 3: with Jim Jones, I don't know, he's he's an interesting individual.
Speaker 3: I think he believed in a lot of what he said.
Speaker 4: But he also hustled with the chicken and trails. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: so very much like a like a like a hustler,
Speaker 4: a fraud. He used that money and you know, when
Speaker 4: you want to question people's motives. A solar temple there
Speaker 4: was a lot of money, and Jim Jones there was
Speaker 4: a lot of money. All of these are a lot
Speaker 4: of money. They can even the Heaven's Gate guys, they
Speaker 4: could purchase a one point three million dollar mansion. You know. Religions,
Speaker 4: some churches, many churches, I'm sure struggle, yeah, keep a roof,
Speaker 4: literally fix the roof on the church.
Speaker 3: So I've got a lot of the churches that are
Speaker 3: mainstream do not collect everything from their people. They take donations.
Speaker 3: Whereas with these groups, every one of them, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we want your house, we want your cars. They take
Speaker 3: everything you have and put it into the kitty. Where
Speaker 3: it's like when you're going to the you know church
Speaker 3: down the road, you might put ten bucks in the
Speaker 3: in the pass round cup or whatever. But you still
Speaker 3: have your house and car and all that. You know,
Speaker 3: you have your bank account. So it's it's that's where
Speaker 3: they get this intense wealth because they take every person,
Speaker 3: like if you think about Jim Jones, you think about
Speaker 3: the hundreds of you know, having a thousand people and
Speaker 3: all of their income, and then you have all of
Speaker 3: their labor as well for free. It's pretty and pretty
Speaker 3: intense how much money they get and go through. And yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's kind of a sad statement because
Speaker 3: most of these groups are still active to this day
Speaker 3: and still have followers and still believe in what they
Speaker 3: were taught. It's not like it's gone away. It's just
Speaker 3: the leader was killed or died and even a lot
Speaker 3: of the members, but there's still the religion so to speak,
Speaker 3: continuing to this day.
Speaker 4: You include to the branch Davidians and David Koresh and
Speaker 4: also instead of many people know that story, but also
Speaker 4: that it's connected with the Oklahoma City bombing in terms
Speaker 4: of people feeling that Waco and the government where the
Speaker 4: government assassinated those people and killed those people wrongfully, and
Speaker 4: there was convictions in court as well, so it's very
Speaker 4: interesting you're getting a reaction to that what they've perceived
Speaker 4: as wrongful killing of those innocent people exercising their religious rights.
Speaker 4: And then you have the Oklahoma City bombing. Will there
Speaker 4: be other people inspired from those movements?
Speaker 3: Oh, totally. And in Quresh's case in particular, I talked
Speaker 3: to followers, and there's followers that have been you know,
Speaker 3: they're out and alive, and they're still following, and some
Speaker 3: of them are still waiting for him to return. You know,
Speaker 3: this is a continuation and and and you know a
Speaker 3: lot of the I guess you want to call them
Speaker 3: the radical right, or a lot of the right wing
Speaker 3: in the US really believed in you know, from Movie Ridge,
Speaker 3: which led to the Branch Davidians at Waco, to like
Speaker 3: you said, Oklahoma bombing. They're all connected in the fact
Speaker 3: that you know, there's a group that feel they have
Speaker 3: the right to have guns and the right to to
Speaker 3: have these religions and groups in amongst themselves. And it's
Speaker 3: a real fine line. I wouldn't want to be the
Speaker 3: one siding, you know, as bad as I think Janet
Speaker 3: Reno handled this case, I wouldn't want to be the
Speaker 3: person that had to do that to decide when to
Speaker 3: move and when not to move, and when you've got
Speaker 3: your agents in David Koresh's case, actually saying that you know,
Speaker 3: they've got a stock pile of weapons. He's having sex
Speaker 3: with children, he's having babies with children. There's all these
Speaker 3: things that you know are against the law. But is
Speaker 3: it part of the religion? Is it allowed or do
Speaker 3: you know? Are they allowed to do all this? And
Speaker 3: there's people that believe they should be able to and
Speaker 3: that's that's where you draw that line. And you know,
Speaker 3: they get to the technicalities. The ATF had no legal
Speaker 3: right to uh to try to arrest caress in the
Speaker 3: group for for the rape charges or the sex with
Speaker 3: the minors. That's not their jurisdiction. Like there's I've heard
Speaker 3: all of these that that case. I was involved with
Speaker 3: a lot, and it's just it's just all over the
Speaker 3: place on how, how and what people believe. But bottom
Speaker 3: line is, don't get you know, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3: I included this because you know, David Koresh or Victor
Speaker 3: Hutu this is his real name, was a seven day Adventist
Speaker 3: that believed the end of the world and was believed
Speaker 3: he was he was, you know, Jesus or Godson right
Speaker 3: from the get go, and right then I just I
Speaker 3: don't trust them. So but they're still there, and they're
Speaker 3: still out there, and they're still following David Koresh.
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Speaker 4: You write about a different type of cult again will
Speaker 4: be very interesting. I not heard of this person, Rod
Speaker 4: Ferrell and worship being the paranormal believed. He told his
Speaker 4: followers he was a five hundred year old vampire and
Speaker 4: somewhat ridiculous, but and he was a spirit and he
Speaker 4: was called upon Lucifer to build up an army to
Speaker 4: stop again coming apocalypse. And this guy had a sortid
Speaker 4: background that contributed to well, he had a traumatic background.
Speaker 4: You talk about him being raped by his grandfather and
Speaker 4: his grandfather's friends, so there was a disturbing beginning to
Speaker 4: his life.
Speaker 3: Fairly, oh, totally, totally, and I only could included them,
Speaker 3: but because I wanted to show that it went on
Speaker 3: the same scenario of cult like lifestyle and end of
Speaker 3: the world and all that that were from people that
Speaker 3: didn't necessarily believe in an Abrahamic religion. Like they didn't
Speaker 3: believe in Jesus or the Jewish religion or you know, Islam.
Speaker 3: They was safe. They thought that was just all just bitch.
Speaker 3: So they did. They weren't like a mainstream religious person
Speaker 3: per se. They had a different concept of the world
Speaker 3: and more of a I want to call more of
Speaker 3: a television thing, you know, like everything comes from vampires
Speaker 3: and and things like that. And they get they get
Speaker 3: so influenced from what you see in these movies and
Speaker 3: books that have been written horror stories, and they adopt
Speaker 3: those ideas and they make it real to life and
Speaker 3: they become part of them, like where they like this
Speaker 3: guy Rod Ferrell thought he was he was a spirit
Speaker 3: that kept coming back. He was an old vampire soul,
Speaker 3: so to speak. And and so so they don't have
Speaker 3: to like follow you know, Jesus. They're not. They're not
Speaker 3: necessarily the son of God. But there are still cults
Speaker 3: in groups like this that have the same sort of
Speaker 3: you know, they draw in on people. You know, again,
Speaker 3: the people are different, but they get these people that
Speaker 3: have this weakness and this need to feel part of something,
Speaker 3: and they join and then from there they do something
Speaker 3: you know, usually Again, it's with these guys, it's it's
Speaker 3: sexual or something that becomes just part of the group
Speaker 3: behavior and it's not necessarily deadly, but it does lead
Speaker 3: to that over and over again.
Speaker 4: So you know, well, he talked about human sacrifice, so
Speaker 4: he was convincing his followers to rationalize why murder death
Speaker 4: was okay. What else did he have to say to
Speaker 4: his followers? Again, as ridiculous as it may sound, how
Speaker 4: else did he frame his argument?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, he was if you ever watched an
Speaker 3: interview with the vampire or read you would almost think
Speaker 3: he was Lewis. You know, he had so many of
Speaker 3: the characteristics. You know, he had the altars, and he
Speaker 3: had the you know, and and he wanted them to
Speaker 3: drink blood, right, and so the idea was you drank
Speaker 3: his blood and they would drink each other's blood. And
Speaker 3: they had all these and you get power from that
Speaker 3: and you get you get everything from them. And it's
Speaker 3: just it's like I said, it's watching a really bad
Speaker 3: horror movie and I I don't know, the blood letting
Speaker 3: ideas and all that just sort of you know, like
Speaker 3: I can't say enough bad about this sort of thing.
Speaker 3: You know, everything that you'd see candles and incense and
Speaker 3: it's just a bad, bad movie. And again it's it's
Speaker 3: people feel feel love for for their leader and if
Speaker 3: they get into the life. This is one of those
Speaker 3: that if they got into the lifestyle long enough, it
Speaker 3: would continue even after Farrell's in jail, or even after
Speaker 3: he dies, people keep it going. But this is one
Speaker 3: that was cut pretty short. Luckily.
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean they started it not so innocently by
Speaker 4: breaking into he means shelter and killing dogs and drinking
Speaker 4: their blood. But eventually it did lead to and again
Speaker 4: you say luckily it led to murder, obviously, but it's
Speaker 4: a it's a very good example of how well even
Speaker 4: though it's a minor it looks like a bunch of
Speaker 4: teenagers who watch too much TV. Again, it seems like
Speaker 4: an innocent scenario that you know, the parents don't even
Speaker 4: know about this, but the next thing, you know, murder ensues.
Speaker 3: I think, so, yeah, get they get into this thing.
Speaker 3: You know, like he's creating a like with his girlfriend,
Speaker 3: he killed the parents, He's creating her. She's evolving into
Speaker 3: this high priestess. Like they have all these you know,
Speaker 3: these huge ideas about where everything's going and how powerful
Speaker 3: they are and how how elite again that word, how
Speaker 3: much better they are than the world, and they're going
Speaker 3: to run the world, to control the world. So that's
Speaker 3: what this was all about. And it's just it's it's
Speaker 3: it's it's laughable, but it's it's not because real people
Speaker 3: get involved in this. And if this didn't end so quickly,
Speaker 3: it would have gone on and on and he would
Speaker 3: have had more members and more of this would have happened.
Speaker 3: And it's not. It's never a good ending.
Speaker 4: You talked to survivors of cults, and obviously you didn't.
Speaker 4: There's many many survivors that probably would never want to
Speaker 4: speak about it again, would think, But there are many
Speaker 4: programs like the Victims the Myrtles there they created a foundation.
Speaker 4: But and I know of other deprogramming cult type services
Speaker 4: and people that have been involved in calls helping people recover,
Speaker 4: I guess, reintegrate. What was some of the things that
Speaker 4: you heard from survivors of these cults.
Speaker 3: Well, the ones I dealt with all believed and continue
Speaker 3: to believe in whatever faith they were following, whether it
Speaker 3: was Heaven's Gate or whether it's branch to Vidians or
Speaker 3: you know, even with the Manson followers, they all sort
Speaker 3: of continue to live as if it existed, as if
Speaker 3: it was real, as if what they learned from that
Speaker 3: leader was the true teaching and they're going to live
Speaker 3: out their life that way, and and I just couldn't
Speaker 3: figure out how.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: And some of them were very smart, like Brian Thibodeau,
Speaker 3: you know, the Branch Davidians and and just really together people,
Speaker 3: and they seem like they are normal as as which
Speaker 3: what you know of that word, but they're just an
Speaker 3: average citizen. And yet they go home and they're they're
Speaker 3: still believe that you know, in that case, you know,
Speaker 3: Koresh is coming back, you know that that that this
Speaker 3: is continuing, and and I can't I can't quite figure
Speaker 3: that out. I can't figure out how they've developed so
Speaker 3: far into that life that they're they're going to live
Speaker 3: out their life holding onto that, And I just uh.
Speaker 3: And that's the ones I focused on. There's also ones
Speaker 3: that have been you know, if you know Robert Randon,
Speaker 3: go through him and a lot of the people he's
Speaker 3: helped the program and stuff, and they're totally broken away.
Speaker 3: But with this particular book, I didn't use any of
Speaker 3: those conversations or influence. Really it was more about people
Speaker 3: that because I'm fascinated and on how on what that
Speaker 3: point is of when they turn into being that religion,
Speaker 3: that faith that they were taught rather than just a
Speaker 3: follower or part of the group at the beginning, Like
Speaker 3: where was it so that even the leader can be
Speaker 3: dead or proven wrong and they still go with the
Speaker 3: faith Like that's I'm fascinated with that point.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, It's been incredible speaking with you about doomsday cults,
Speaker 4: the Devil's Hostage. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 4: Alan are Warren for talking about doomsday cults. For those
Speaker 4: that might want to take a look at this, can
Speaker 4: you point them to a website as a Facebook page,
Speaker 4: And of course you're the host of the great radio
Speaker 4: program House of Mystery, so tell us about how they
Speaker 4: might take a look at this book and other work.
Speaker 3: Well, I've at most major bookstores and of course Amazon,
Speaker 3: and I have a book author web page Alanarwarren dot
Speaker 3: com and all my books are there as well as Facebook.
Speaker 3: I'm on Alan R. Warren Author or just me and
Speaker 3: and I have Twitter as well, and of course the
Speaker 3: House of Mystery or radio dot com if they want
Speaker 3: to listen to me talk and that's about it. Great.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, Alan R. Warren, Doomsday Cults, the
Speaker 4: Devil's Hostage, it's been fantastic.
Speaker 3: Good night, thank you, M