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In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 23 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:43.119 Really yes, excuse me? 24 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:44.920 What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 25 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:46.119 I never win? 26 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:47.679 And tell well, there you have it. 27 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.520 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot 28 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:53.439 com play for free right now. Are you feeling lucky? No, 29 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:55.159 We're necessary for we were gonna be my long eighteen 30 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:56.479 plus terms conditions plus a. 31 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:01.600 Details Lock Oh Radio. 32 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.319 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 33 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 34 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:21.760 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 35 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:25.480 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 36 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 37 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.040 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 38 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:48.359 Good Evening. Jim Jones convinced his one thousand followers they 39 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.480 would all have to commit suicide since he was going 40 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:56.640 to die. Shoko Asahara convinced his followers to release a 41 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.239 weapon of mass destruction, the deadly saren Gas on a 42 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.439 Tokyo subway. The Order of the Solar Temple lured the 43 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:08.840 rich and famous, including Princess Grace of Monaco, convinced them 44 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.240 to die of fiery death now on Earth, to be 45 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:15.719 reborn on a better planet called Sirius. Charles Manson convinced 46 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.719 his followers to kill in an attempt to incite an 47 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:24.319 apocalyptic race war. These are a few of the doomsday 48 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:28.319 cults examined in this book by best selling author Alan R. Warren. 49 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.759 Its focus is on cults whose destructive behavior was due 50 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.240 in large part to their apocalyptic beliefs or doomsday movements. 51 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.520 It includes details surrounding the massacres and the look into 52 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.599 how their members became so brainwashed they committed unimaginable crimes 53 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:49.360 at the command of their leader. Usually, when we hear 54 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.120 about these cults and their massacres, we ask ourselves how 55 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.479 it possibly happened. We could also ask ourselves, what then, 56 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.800 is the difference between a cult and a religion. We 57 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.159 once had a small group of people who unquestionably followed 58 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:06.280 a person who believed that he was a son of God. 59 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.000 Two thousand years later, that following is one of the 60 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.400 most recognized religions in the world. This book in no 61 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:16.960 way criticized believing in God. Rather, it examines how a 62 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.919 social movement grows into a full religion and when it 63 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:27.039 does not, and what makes the conventional faiths such as Christianity, Judaism, 64 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:31.759 Islam and Hinduism when Hinduism stand above groups such as 65 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:36.800 the Branch Davidians or Children of God. The book that 66 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.879 we are featuring this evening is Doomsday Cults The Devil's 67 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:45.560 Hostage with my special guest journalist and author and host 68 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.560 of House of Mystery, Alan R. Warren, thank you very 69 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.520 much for agreeing in this interview. Welcome back, Alan R. Warren. 70 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:55.479 Thanks very much for asking me to be on. 71 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.000 Thank you very much, it's always a pleasure. And congratulate 72 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:04.960 relations on this book. Very very extensive and comprehensive, comprehensive 73 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:10.319 investigation of cults that have happened before and ones presently, 74 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:16.399 very very enlightening. Let's talk about why you wanted to 75 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:20.000 write this book and sort of the focus of this 76 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:21.680 book doomsday cults. 77 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:25.879 Well, I think it's something that I've been doing for 78 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:31.000 a few years now, quite a few years, and meeting 79 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.879 a lot of people that have been in some of 80 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:41.319 these cults and how they believe even afterwards, and sort 81 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.480 of that and my own sort of growing up just 82 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.600 as probably all of us in Canada or the US, 83 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:54.040 with some sort of religious influence, and just coming from 84 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.160 that and trying to understand, trying to understand the differences 85 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:03.000 and why people belong to things like this. 86 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.160 What are some of the cults that you examined specifically 87 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:15.399 in this book and then comment and again further examine 88 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.759 in this book as examples of the cults and what 89 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:23.480 exactly again, when I mentioned this focus, you said the 90 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:27.439 focus on the cults whose destructive behavior was due in 91 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:31.600 large part to their apocalyptic beliefs, and hence the term 92 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:35.480 doomsday cults. Tell us about some of these cults that 93 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:37.160 you examined in this book. 94 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.839 Well, when I was putting together on a lot of 95 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.600 cult books, like I have three here and this is 96 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.519 the first one to be released, the idea was how 97 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.360 to put them all together and make them fit, so 98 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:58.800 with the Doomsday one. These these all tend to have 99 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:05.360 some sort of a charismatic leader, somebody that presents themselves 100 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.879 as a prophet or very close to God, or even 101 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.759 being God's son or appointed by God. And what they're 102 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:20.160 there to do, generally is to lead the army, the 103 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:25.360 army of God, and lead them into some sort of 104 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.759 future world after the apocalypse which is coming. And they 105 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.680 know about the end of the world, and so they 106 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.560 are going to lead them and take them into the 107 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.720 new into either a new planet or into the new 108 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.680 world after the battle or war happens. And so each 109 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:49.199 one of these tends to have that sort of angle 110 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:51.839 to it, that sort of reasoning and right from Jim Jones, 111 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:58.079 to Charles Manson, David Koresh, they all had that, So 112 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.560 you know, they have slight tweaks on what they say, 113 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:04.439 whether the son of God or they're appointed they're a prophet, 114 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.360 or whatever the case, and whether we have to catch 115 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.399 a spaceship to the new world and at the new 116 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.920 level the new place that we're going, or whether we're 117 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:17.399 just going to be the ones that rebuild the world 118 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:21.279 after the end times. So they all sort of have 119 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.920 that direction, and they all tend to have the similarity 120 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:32.319 of someone that's really in charge, someone that they bow to, 121 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:37.519 so to speak. And that's for different reasons, but in 122 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.120 general it's because they're dealing with the Holy Person. 123 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:47.439 Certainly, you say each group has some form of indoctrination program, 124 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:56.199 mind control process, and the members are exploited financially, very 125 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:02.040 often sexually, or for labor or other reasons. And you 126 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:05.360 write that cult plus time some people have written it 127 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:13.240 equals religion. The scholars refer to cults as new religious movements. 128 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:16.079 So when you mentioned and we mentioned in the introduction 129 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.759 about movements, you also write that a Roman Empire initially 130 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.959 considered Judaism as a cult, and Jesus was just one 131 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.560 of at least a dozen religious messiahs during that socially 132 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.720 turbulent time. You go on to write about movements itself. 133 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.759 This is fascinating. Tell us about these movements and their 134 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:47.720 connection to religious religions themselves. 135 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:51.639 Well as in the movements, they tend to always have 136 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.039 some sort of an agenda, a religion behind them, some 137 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:03.279 sort of a truth. I think that trying to separate 138 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:09.879 religious movements from cults is really tough because what exactly 139 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.679 is the difference, And a lot of that in that 140 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:16.480 first chapter that you talk about is when you look 141 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.440 at Jesus Christ and you look at his following, he 142 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.600 was one of twelve groups that we knew about that 143 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:27.960 had the same similar sort of process within the group 144 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.240 and the same sort of belief And yeah, they were 145 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.360 all considered kind of cults by the Romans. And if 146 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.320 you were to take some of those and put them now, 147 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.440 which there are quite a few now groups that have 148 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:46.960 the same similar ways about them, how would we look 149 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:50.919 at them now? How would we look at Jesus now? 150 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.799 If a person was to come forward, like you look 151 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:58.240 at David Koresh who said they are the appointed one 152 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.720 and they decide what's going to happen and who's going 153 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.000 to do what with who and where, and they make 154 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.720 all of these decisions and they can heal people, even 155 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.039 like Jim Jones was able to cure cancer or whatever 156 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.279 the case. So now we look at them as cults. 157 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:22.480 Back then they were considered by common people. Someone's you know, 158 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.559 a regular power, a place to go. So it's it's 159 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:29.039 it's really the context of where the cult is. 160 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.679 It's very interesting too, getting back to when you describe 161 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.919 as movements religious movements. In the Mid East, you had 162 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:49.159 Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Ibanat's, Ebanites, Valencian Gnosism. In Europe 163 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:59.840 you have Christian Kabala familiests, again a bunch of other 164 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:10.440 thins that are very unpronounceable to me. But in India, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, 165 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:21.120 different ravet Busm, so different forms of Buddhism, Sikhism, Shia Islam, 166 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:26.240 Sunni Islam, different variations of Christianity. So and just a 167 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.639 sheer number of religious movements is fascinating. Then you write 168 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:34.480 about in the sixteen hundreds, you write that American colonies 169 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.519 in the US had a reputation sort of a safe 170 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:42.159 hazen for religious radicals. And so the section between Albany 171 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:46.039 and Buffalo, New York you write the birthplace of Seven 172 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:54.559 day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Millerism, Universal Friends, Mormonism, Spiritualism, and 173 00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:02.799 an American Shakers, among others. What is it about society 174 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:07.799 that there were so many movements and really no, it 175 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:12.200 looks like no general consensus about religion, just only more 176 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:18.320 religious groups and sects branching off from those and again 177 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.879 from those religious movements. What is the difference between a 178 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.320 cult when they say a classification that will be called 179 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.960 a cult or religious movement, what is the difference in 180 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:28.840 the classification. 181 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.200 Well, the real problem is again the context. You know, 182 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.960 when you have these groups, you have these religions, and 183 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:44.240 when you have slight breakoff groups, they're usually someone within 184 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:52.039 that religion that believes in a particular part of where 185 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.320 they get the religion from the Koran or the Bible, 186 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.480 and they take that part and they believe it differently, 187 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.960 They see it as meaning something different, and so they 188 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.600 will break away and create their own sort of sect 189 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.960 or you know division of that. There's so many Christian 190 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.679 divisions now and Catholic and even Muslim to an extent, 191 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:19.600 and so they sort of have these offshoots when that 192 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:27.559 was going on, people that actually had totally different ideas 193 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.320 of the religion, such as the SDA Seven Days and stuff. 194 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.039 Why America was considered a good place to go is 195 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.519 it was considered the place to go to get away 196 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:42.919 from the mainstream religions. So it was kind of you know, 197 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.919 the Burning District there you mentioned that was really popular 198 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:51.840 amongst some of these smaller and more considered radical divisions, 199 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.399 and so that's where it all started. So Seven Day 200 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:58.639 events in general, and a lot of the other groups 201 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.639 you mentioned that came to the Burning District in the 202 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:06.639 US tended to be more end times. They tended to 203 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:11.159 have more of the faith that we were living at 204 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.240 the end of the world. So that was the biggest 205 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.360 difference between that and the mainstream religions. And what exactly 206 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:23.720 is the difference between them. It's usually about the power sect. 207 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.320 When a certain group is in control, they have a 208 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.200 lot of funds, they have a lot of money, they 209 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.639 have a lot of support, and they get involved in 210 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:37.240 the governments. And so in Europe the Catholics were really 211 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.960 the main church, the most powerful. In the United States, 212 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.120 you could come and start your group, even like the Mormons, 213 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:50.159 and you could create your own base out of people 214 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.480 that all rejected that religion, the original religion in Europe. 215 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.320 And how do you tell the difference? It's really who 216 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:03.279 can lasts? You know the time. If you can stand 217 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:08.320 the test of time, then you've become more of a religion. 218 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.279 And the other aspect is usually the person or the 219 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:19.360 person that runs that division. Even when they pass, people 220 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.080 continue on with what they were taught by that person, 221 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.679 and you start to become more of a religion than 222 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:27.399 just a cult. 223 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.960 You say that the hardest thing to explain about the 224 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:38.240 followers is the commitments of members to the cult, especially 225 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.120 when they remain committed even after the prophecies. When we 226 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.720 talked about the end days, there's always a or usually 227 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.759 there is a time specified, so these prophecies turn out 228 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.600 to be wrong or false. Do you think that's you 229 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:57.879 explain that that is the hardest thing to explain about followers. 230 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:01.600 Yeah, most of the ones that I spoke with that 231 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.679 were after the fact, after it was all said and done, 232 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:09.120 and it never happened the way it was supposed to. 233 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.960 When you talk with them, a lot of them still 234 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.960 had the beliefs. They still lived the lifestyle they were taught, 235 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:20.519 and some of them even figure they're like David Koresh, 236 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.080 he's coming back. He's going to return to Earth even 237 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.960 though he was killed. So they really so they you know, 238 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.600 there is this point and I know that in the 239 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.120 last part of the book we talked about brainwashing and 240 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.600 a lot of the you know, breaking points and stuff, 241 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.039 and when you come when you look at how they 242 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.399 can continue on, there has to be a part. There's 243 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.759 a lot of psychologists suggest that it's just people don't 244 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.320 want to admit their wrong and there's there's certain terms 245 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.240 they use that kind of go to that. But I 246 00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.720 think there's more to it. There's something deeper than that 247 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:06.599 in a person that would would continue on with that 248 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:11.000 sort of belief even though it's you know, it didn't happen. 249 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:14.440 So we start have to we have to identify the 250 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.000 personality the people that are behind that and the ones 251 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.319 that follow these groups, and you have to start finding 252 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.880 out more about the characteristics of the people that get 253 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:32.359 into cults and why that they get involved. And again 254 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.799 it's really tough. You know, look how devout people are 255 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:42.359 to mainstream religions. Catholic Christian and they they they get 256 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:47.880 so involved that everything they do and they their lifestyle 257 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.119 starts to surround that. That's all there is. So every 258 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.359 day it's about the church and about their God and 259 00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:02.400 about living to fulfill that. So their physical life becomes secondary. 260 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.440 And so I don't know if it's if it's about habit, 261 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:12.079 if it's about just you know, where that drops off 262 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.480 to where they never ever change, doesn't matter who's in 263 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:17.680 the church and what the church is doing itself. 264 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:26.519 It's interesting too that you write about what happens when 265 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:33.839 they recognize things in their leader that they thought were well. 266 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:38.559 They find out things about the leader that tarnishes the 267 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.759 reputation of the church itself and makes them doubt that 268 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:48.799 this leader is an all supreme being. So in terms 269 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.640 of that, let's talk about Jim Jones and the People's 270 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:56.480 Temple and the Disciples of Christ nineteen seventy eight, because 271 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:01.960 it's very interesting how Jim Jones to all people that 272 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.119 he encountered, and we will talk about some of the 273 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:09.119 the authorities and officials that he charmed with his ideas 274 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:13.960 about this utopia, first in America and then later when 275 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.519 they relocated in Jonestown, especially let's talk about Jim Jones 276 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.319 and some of the things that he said and used 277 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.960 to convince people to join him in the People's Temple. 278 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.119 Well, Jim Jones had, first of all, he was that 279 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:32.680 charismic guy. He had that way about him. You know, 280 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.319 he was practicing preaching when he was just a child, 281 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.200 and he would preach to trees and forests, and he 282 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:44.119 was you know, he was very you know, he was 283 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.720 just out there. He was the personality. And when he 284 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:51.480 started his own church, what he did was he started 285 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:59.559 by taking all of the minority groups that were being 286 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:01.640 a press at the time, you know, in the sixties 287 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.839 and the seventies when you had the KKK was at 288 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.039 their one of their strongest points at that time, and 289 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.200 was very very out there you might say, they weren't hidden, 290 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.039 and so there was so much of this going on. 291 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.400 So he would he would open his doors he wanted 292 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.880 he welcomed people of color and gay and just everybody 293 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.559 into the church. And he was one of the first 294 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.480 to do that because typically the church was was was 295 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:35.240 frowning upon, you know, any sort of difference, like either 296 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:40.440 you fit in and became how what they wanted, or 297 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.759 you were not part of them. So he was very 298 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.960 much into all of this, you know, you know hippies. 299 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.359 It didn't matter what you what kind of a person 300 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.599 in that way you were, he wanted you. He wanted 301 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.920 all of that in there, and you felt very welcomed 302 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.759 and loving. He was also the first family where met 303 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.279 him and his wife adopted a black child as as 304 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.559 their own, and that coused a lot of turmoil. You 305 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:12.599 would not believe how much people didn't want to associate 306 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:15.599 with you, or they cut you out, or they didn't 307 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.240 they didn't want to be part of your life because 308 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.279 of that. That that that made you less of a family. 309 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.319 And so so he he he caught onto that and 310 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.880 he really absorbed that and all of the people that 311 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.359 he could. He was very welcoming and opening and people 312 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.799 loved that and they felt they were part of a 313 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:42.480 real religious movement that cared about them, so they wanted 314 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.279 to be there. And so this this just grew and 315 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:50.519 grew and grew, and. 316 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.519 Hello, it is Ryan. 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And 326 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:15.720 lived at Chumba Lane. 327 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:17.960 No, we're necessarily idially where everybody lost in terms of 328 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:18.759 conditions eating pluss. 329 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.880 That was really how it began. You know, it was 330 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:30.160 pretty amazing. The following he had was just incredible. It 331 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.839 got to a point where he moved right from this 332 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:39.359 all happened in Indiana and Indianapolis actually, and so he 333 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:41.440 took them all to California. 334 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:46.960 Right now. He endeared himself to people like Harvey Milk 335 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.400 involved with the City of San Francisco official and the mayor, 336 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.079 and people were very interested in what seemed to be 337 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:58.720 all these happy people, and they had quite a following. 338 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.519 You say, well over well over one thousand people had 339 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:05.799 relocated to this compound that he was conducting. But also 340 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.079 you say, when you talk about the negative reaction that 341 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:12.240 Jones and his family had by adopting that black child 342 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.079 in his mind, and I don't know if he was 343 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.240 paranoid or or at least I would have been maybe 344 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.960 paranoid about this as well. That he thought the CIA 345 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.119 was watching him and tapping his phones and that his 346 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:26.839 food was being poisoned. So I think that certainly he 347 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.200 was deluded, but that the CIA could have been watching 348 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.119 him at that time because of his activities. Isn't that 349 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.039 out isn't that out there if they're watching John Lennon 350 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:43.359 and his activities, so that the same time, Sorry, go ahead. 351 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:44.240 I was just going to say, I think you got 352 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.240 to remember in the times sixties and seventies, you were 353 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.640 considered an enemy. You were considered like if you were 354 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.559 into rock and roll and all of the things that 355 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:04.279 they thought were enemy to society and enemy to religion 356 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.799 in a sense, And so he had that in him. 357 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:11.880 People treated him that way when he started to become big, 358 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.119 and I have to say it's also known that he 359 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:20.240 started taking drugs, and the combination of the drugs and 360 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.519 the way people ostracized him, he became paranoid. He started 361 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:30.720 hiring bodyguards, he started sort of separating himself and protecting 362 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.039 himself because he did think that someone would try to 363 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.880 kill him. This is also the time that Bobby Kennedy 364 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.839 was killed, you know, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. So 365 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.640 this was not a wing that idea to think, oh 366 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:45.799 my god, they're going to try and kill me. And 367 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.640 like you mentioned John Lennon, those were people. Now we 368 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:50.839 look back at them and see them as kind of 369 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:53.279 they were good people and there were people trying to 370 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.519 get rights and doing you know, John Lennon and all 371 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.319 this stuff and singing about love. But back then they 372 00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.920 were they thought these guys are these guys are really destructive. 373 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:06.119 We got to protect ourself and protect our children from 374 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:09.880 these guys. So he was kind of on that threshold 375 00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:13.240 in his mind. He put himself up there with people 376 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:18.200 like Martin Luther King. So yeah, I could see why 377 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.359 he would be scared. 378 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.839 You're right though, that with the People's Temple, he also 379 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.079 very much of the popularity and the allure, and more 380 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.720 so in the charisma even is the chicken and trails 381 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.759 used for audience members. He's healing the sick and had 382 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:39.839 a very loving behavior with kids and old people, but 383 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:44.079 he was he was tricking them and fooling them and 384 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:49.279 trying to pretend he was a person of magic and 385 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.200 healing people of their illnesses. So this was part of 386 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.799 the thing. The other he had a couple people, and 387 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:58.880 then you write about the Myrtles where they were convinced 388 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:02.119 that the Jones had cured their son of a heart 389 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.039 condition telepathically, and yet at the same time they saw 390 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.759 a difference when they had joined this group, the discipline 391 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.680 was getting harsher. He had patted their sixteen year old 392 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:17.000 daughter in front of six hundred people, so they saw 393 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.000 a behavior that they hadn't seen before that was far 394 00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:22.200 less charismatic as time went on. 395 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:29.519 Oh, it was, yeah, And they were a perfect example 396 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:33.720 of a family. When he came to California and it 397 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:36.720 became like he became like a celebrity, you know, and 398 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.480 he was hobnobbing with all the famous people and people 399 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.960 around it at the time, and in San Francisco in California, 400 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.640 he was popular. So, yeah, they were a typical family 401 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:53.759