WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.439 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 2 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.759 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.679 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.400 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.960 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 6 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.399 Chumpbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 7 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.559 you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 8 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.079 That's you brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so 9 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.519 sign up now at chumbuck Casino dot com. That's chumbuck 10 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:27.399 Casino dot com. 11 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.960 No prigs necessary, void over. I lost the terms conditions 12 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.560 eighteen plus. Judy was boring. Hello, Then Judy discovered Chumbucasino 13 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.679 dot com. It's my little escape. Now Judy is the 14 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:40.159 life of the party. Oh baby, Mama is bringing home 15 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:44.759 the bacon who take it easy, Judy, jump the Chumba life. 16 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.679 That's for everybody. So go to Chumpacasino dot com and 17 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.719 play over one hundred casino style games. Join today and 18 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:53.880 playing for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 19 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:58.280 Jump Chumpacasino dot com. Noprid just necessary boid, We're prohibited 20 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.159 by long eighteen plus terms and conditioned to plicy let's. 21 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.799 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 22 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.920 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.280 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 24 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.000 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.319 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 26 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:37.239 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 27 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:52.000 Good Evening. The Sicilian Mafia, a true crime travel Guide 28 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.079 is the first book of its kind in any language, 29 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:03.120 the ultimate Kozonostra experience, since author Carl Russo has photographed 30 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:08.120 mafia hotspots on the Italian island of Sicily, where murders happened, 31 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.199 where their godfathers lived, and their victims are buried, From 32 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.919 the sun baked fishing villages of the Mediterranean to the 33 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:19.240 darkest valleys of Palermo. Western Sicily is the exotic backdropped 34 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.960 for over a hundred meticulously researched tales of murder and mayhem, 35 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.520 with two hundred photographs of the actual locations. They include 36 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.960 the childhood home of gangster Lucky Luciano, the hide outs 37 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.919 of the fearsome bosses of Corleone, the tombs of the 38 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.639 Robin Hood Bandit and the legendary downs the roots of 39 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:42.479 the American and Canadian mafias, the Allied landing, pistol packing priests, 40 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:46.879 political assassinations, playgrounds of the New Mafia, and even the 41 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.879 anti mafia movement. Whether you're planning a trip to Sicily 42 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.520 or sticking to the comforts of your armchair, this provocative 43 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:57.719 book will take you closer to the Sicilian Mafia than 44 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.639 you dared to think possible. The book that we're featuring 45 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.879 this evening is The Sicilian Mafia, a True Crime Travel 46 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:09.319 Guide with my special guest journalist and author Carl Russo. 47 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:11.520 Welcome to the program, and thank you for being to 48 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:12.120 this interview. 49 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.400 Carl Russo, Hey, Dan, thanks for having me on. I 50 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:16.120 appreciate it. 51 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:19.759 Thank you very much. It's a very interesting book and 52 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.400 jam packed with information. So let's get right to it. 53 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:31.360 I understand that you operate a blog called Mafia Exposed, 54 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.479 and so tell us a little bit about your background 55 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.840 and then tell us what compelled you to write this book, 56 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.639 The Sicilian Mafia, A True Crime Travel Guide. 57 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:46.439 Well, you know, I never really have been a crime 58 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:51.000 buff in the classic sense. As a kid, it was 59 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.919 Godfather Fever, the Godfather movies by Francis Ford Coppolo, We're out, 60 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.719 and I was only old enough to see those on 61 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.599 TELL Television, so you know, that was my idea of 62 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:06.599 the Sicilian mafia. And anytime there was a TV variety show, 63 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:10.759 that'd be a comic spoof of the Godfather films. And 64 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:13.159 that was all I know, But it was everywhere. So 65 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.399 at that time, I read the Volacchi papers and I 66 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.439 read Vincent Terres's My Life in the Mafia, and I 67 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.959 found them interesting, but that was it. I didn't read 68 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.480 anything after that. I lost interest, And it really wasn't 69 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:29.480 until I started going to Sicily on a regular basis, 70 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:33.519 just because I love it, because it was cheap to 71 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:37.240 travel there, and it's just so endlessly fascinating with all 72 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:42.399 the different cultural remnants that are there from the millennia, 73 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:47.839 all the various conquerors from different continents in different countries, 74 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:52.560 foreign powers that took over Sicily. But as the more 75 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:54.759 I started going, the more I was reading up on 76 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:59.680 the history and just the recent news of Sicily, I realized, Wow, 77 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.480 this is Silian mafia is still a real thing. It 78 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:06.240 has nothing to do with Tommy guns and pinstriped suits. 79 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:10.240 Or anything very glamorous at all. But it's there, and 80 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.240 I got a whiff of it in Palermo right away 81 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:21.240 when I started going in nineteen ninety nine. I can't 82 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:21.920 see you on it. 83 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.839 Yeah, so you went in in nineteen ninety nine and 84 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.279 you've been back every year. But what brought you to 85 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:33.279 the decision to I mean even to the blog Mafia Exposed? 86 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:36.920 Apparently it has something to do with the book itself, 87 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.839 at least it's related. So tell us about the blog, 88 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:44.120 and so again about your interest. 89 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.399 Well, the genesis of the whole project came in two 90 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:49.920 thousand and six. It was my third or fourth trip 91 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.600 over to the island, and a week before I arrived, 92 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:57.279 they caught the number one most wanted fugitive in Italy, 93 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:02.399 the Sicilian godfather, Bernardo Provenzano. This was April of two 94 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:04.920 thousand and six. They found him. He'd been on the 95 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.759 run since nineteen sixty three, and the circumstances under which 96 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:13.040 they found him were so strange. It was a ricotta 97 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:17.519 cheese making hut in the mountains that overlook Corleone, and 98 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.800 you know which is a reference of course to not 99 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.240 just the movie but the Mario Puzo book. And the 100 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.079 story was so bizarre. When they caught him, they rushed in, 101 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:33.800 they busted down this little hut and there were posters 102 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:38.360 of religious icons saints everywhere. He had bibles that were annotated, 103 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:42.199 he had crucifixes around his neck, and he was smiling 104 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.600 like a saint himself, and it was so strange. It 105 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.399 made headlines everywhere, but of course in Italy that was 106 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:51.480 the news. And so I went to track down this 107 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.639 little hut, which took a couple of days of bugging 108 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.319 some of the people around Corleone, because it's not the 109 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.399 easiest thing just to be an outsider and want to 110 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.920 ask about these things. I finally found it, kind of 111 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:10.839 stuck past some police that were guarding the street and 112 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.639 got some photos of it. And also on this trip, 113 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.360 while I was there, I had been reading about the 114 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:21.120 famous bandit Salvatore Juliano. He was gunned down sixty years ago. 115 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:26.600 But the circumstances were so strange there too. It's one 116 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:30.000 of the great mafia mysteries. Banditry has a long history 117 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.759 in Sicily, but this was the famous Robin Hood bandit 118 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.000 who had worked with the mafia and was possibly killed 119 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.279 by the mafia and I wanted to see the location 120 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.639 where he had been gunned down at least one of 121 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.120 the police stories, the original police story of how he 122 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.439 was gunned down, or perhaps he was gunned down or 123 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:58.720 killed elsewhere, and his body was laid out for journalists 124 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:02.040 to come and photo graphic. It was all such a 125 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:04.800 strange mess to try and even get to the bottom 126 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.360 of what happened with him. But I wanted to go 127 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.360 and see the location because it was Salvatodi. Giuliana was 128 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:16.079 also a film that was made by great filmmaker Francesco Rosi, 129 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.720 who actually shot into the locations and used some of 130 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.560 the people that had died in a massacre that Giuliano 131 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:29.199 had fomented. So to make a long story short, I 132 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.879 realized that there really was no book of this kind 133 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:38.000 that featured the actual locations. Another thing from my youth 134 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.559 is that I always really enjoyed going to cemeteries and 135 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:46.159 that sort of thing, taking photographs in my hometown in 136 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:51.639 northern California, taking photographs, recording names, going to the library 137 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.759 and looking up on microfilm who these people were from 138 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.240 one hundred years ago, And so it all kind of 139 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:00.480 came together. I thought this would make a hell of 140 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.320 a book. The more I got into it, the more 141 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.759 I realized there wasn't even a list of these locations. 142 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:10.600 So this actually took me six or seven years, not 143 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.279 just to defind the locations, but just to find a 144 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:20.000 reference in various articles online or going through court transcripts, 145 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:23.679 or looking through the various scholarly books on the mafia, 146 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.600 and actually going down and tracking them down. So it 147 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.279 took a long time. And the book is finally here. 148 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:37.200 Yes it is, and two hundred photographs and just incredible 149 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:42.240 photographs in this book. Tell us about Sicily for those 150 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.399 that don't know, and we all don't know enough about 151 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:50.840 Sicily and its importance to the mafioso and Cozonostra. So 152 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:53.799 tell us about Sicily and why Sicily, As you say, 153 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.759 Sicily is still important today. But tell us about the 154 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.639 origins of Cozonostra over one hundred years ago, and tell 155 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.039 us why Sicily was so important to that story. 156 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.120 Right, Well, it has everything to do with its location. 157 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:12.879 It's right in the middle of the Mediterranean, and it's 158 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.960 right in the middle of all the ancient profitable trade routes, 159 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:22.000 the shipping routes, so that you had the ancient Greeks 160 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.039 and the ancient Romans that used it, conquered it, conquered 161 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:31.159 its people, practically enslaved them. Because by the time the 162 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.919 Arabs came and conquered Sicily and sort of modernized some 163 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:41.399 of the farming, you had the islanders under their yoke, 164 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.879 having to raise the crops and give them up to 165 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.679 their overlords. You had the Norman conquests around one thousand 166 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.320 a d. As time went on, everybody had a piece 167 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:57.399 of Sicily, the French, the Spanish, various parts of what 168 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:02.080 is now northern Italy to the Sicilians. There never really 169 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:07.320 was a local, legitimate form of authority. It was always 170 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.879 some absentee government that passed the laws that they had 171 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.440 to live under and the foreigners that they were exploited under. 172 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:19.600 So as far as local authority, it sort of fell 173 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:23.200 to the local strong man, the padrone of a village, 174 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.759 who sort of became corrupted because he did have so 175 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:31.440 much power that people would take their disputes to him, 176 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.320 or he would oversee some kind of a transaction end 177 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:40.480 up taking a cut. So this figure kind of tended 178 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:45.039 to be the middleman between the people of Sicily and 179 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:49.159 the far off government, particularly in the nineteenth century. And 180 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:54.240 you had feudalism. You had some pretty brutal conditions, starvation 181 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:59.960 conditions on the island. Even though ostensibly feudalism was outlaw 182 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.559 in the early nineteenth century, he continued on practically into 183 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.200 the twentieth century. But you had a guy that would 184 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.720 be sort of the overlord of the farms, the estates 185 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.399 for the absentee landlords. It would be that well, they 186 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.679 called him the Gabelotto. He would be on horseback, generally 187 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:21.679 always had a shotgun, keep the peasants in line, and 188 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.600 had a propensity for violence. And pretty soon he actually 189 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.759 got powerful enough that he was able to kind of 190 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:34.600 steal away or intimidate the landlords into giving up their 191 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:40.080 lands to him or through violence as well. Meanwhile, in 192 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.759 the prisons, and not just in Sicily, but also around 193 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.960 the Naples area of southern mainland Italy, you had an 194 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.120 incredible recruiting ground there because you had mafia bosses that 195 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:58.320 may have been imprisoned for some various crime thrown in 196 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:03.039 the same dungeon with cut wrote and various rip off artists, 197 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:07.679 and so they were actually able to sort of put 198 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.039 together local clan so when they got out they had 199 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:17.679 quite enforcements on the streets for their own benefits. 200 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:24.039 Right, so it really does sound like the mafia already 201 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.720 when you talk about they wrangled the land from the 202 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:31.440 landlord himself, that sounds very much like the way the 203 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.000 equation works once organized crimes involved in your business. 204 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:40.000 Right now. Of course, the general definition of the mafia 205 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:42.320 has to do with the protection racket, which is what 206 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:47.080 makes them different from other kinds of criminals. Famous scholar 207 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.120 Diego Gambetta says that it is the defining trait of 208 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:55.000 a mafia group is that they actually have protection rackets, 209 00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:01.919 essentially extortion. That's been from the beginning the framework over 210 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:08.240 which they enrich themselves and control the local people. Right 211 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.919 to this day and unfortunately, Sicily still is a place 212 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.759 where the majority of the merchants have to cough up 213 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:21.240 cash to the local family, crime family, the local boss. 214 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:25.000 They'll send around and it's that thorty that's a tax collector, 215 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:27.879 generally once a month and they have to, you know, 216 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:32.120 cough up several hundreds of euros or you know, depending 217 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:34.759 on how profitable the business is. But we're talking not 218 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:40.159 just shopkeepers, but car dealerships, hotels and restaurants and gas stations. 219 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.080 It's still a problem and when the police, the government 220 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.840 has actually done some great crack cracking down on this, 221 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.159 but there's always another guy that wants to move in 222 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.679 and become the boss and take over the racket. They're 223 00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:02.639 always arresting would be UH racketeers extortioners right now. Fortunately, 224 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.320 over the last decade or fifteen years, you have a 225 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:10.440 pretty strong and growing anti mafia movement. So now you 226 00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:15.279 do have the merchants standing up to these threats. There's 227 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.080 a great group and I recommend them in the introduction 228 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.240 to my book, a group called Adio Pizzo. Adio Pizzo 229 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.919 means goodbye to the pizzo. The pizzo being the payment 230 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:29.399 that these various merchants have to give to the crime family. 231 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.399 So there's a list online of the merchants, about a 232 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:38.240 thousand of them that have sworn not to participate and 233 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:44.440 give up any more money to the extortioners. That's a 234 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.320 big part of my push for this book is it's 235 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.440 not just a you know, for the true crime fan 236 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.279 that wants to read about bloody murders, but it's also 237 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.480 has an anti mafia tone because a lot of the 238 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:01.000 figures that I profile in the book over the last 239 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:04.360 hundred years stood up to the mafia at a time 240 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.600 when nobody was standing up to the mafia, guys that 241 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:13.440 generally dirt poor peasants that decided to rally them and 242 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.720 take over some of the farms that were promised them 243 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:21.600 by the land, but promised by the government. There were 244 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:27.559 some laws that would have given unworked land, barren lands 245 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.480 that were still controlled by the mafia to those farmers 246 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:35.000 that wanted to work it. So every village, it seems, 247 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.440 in the interior of Sicily, has a favorite son who 248 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:43.840 was assassinated by the mafia. I will generally go into 249 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.720 these villages, find a house, or at least find the 250 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:52.759 tomb or the monument, photograph that, and that's sort of 251 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:59.559 my little contribution to this incredible island which I love 252 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:00.240 so much. 253 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.440 Now, tell us about the criteria for picking the stories 254 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:13.519 and the corresponding photos that go along in your book. 255 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.599 So the material that you included in your book, what 256 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.960 was your criteria for picking it in the first place. 257 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.880 Well, first of all, I had to find a location 258 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.440 on which to hang the story, and that was always 259 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:32.000 a challenge, especially because you just don't go around and 260 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.680 ask questions about it. I actually kept this. I did 261 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:39.799 this aw with ed GPS, either at home online. I 262 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:45.319 would find an old archival newspaper article and print out 263 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.119 the little photograph of let's say a building. Let's say 264 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.519 it was the home of a certain boss, but there 265 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.119 was no information about it, no address. So I would 266 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.359 on these little cards in this little two ring binder scotch, 267 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.519 tape them in and write down as much information about 268 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.759 the location. Maybe a piazza was mentioned. But a lot 269 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.200 of times I would have to go and take this 270 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.920 photo and drive around in a rental car up and 271 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.200 down these little winding alleys or matches, up to the 272 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.519 mountains in the background. In some cases it took two 273 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.359 or three trips before I found particular locations. Others I 274 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.400 never found. So unless I could put it in the 275 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.000 form of a tour guide, which this book really is. 276 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:34.319 It's kind of laid out in car tours, then you 277 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:37.240 know some things I had to give up. Another challenge 278 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.000 was putting them together, because we're talking about writing about 279 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.200 two hundred different personalities here on both sides of the law, 280 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.759 and putting them all into some kind of a narrative strain. 281 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:56.720 The two pressures were always geography versus narrative and how 282 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.680 to put it all together that way. So I guess 283 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:05.000 my criteria was geography first, tour guide, travel guide first, 284 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:10.880 and narrative second. Because a lot of these figures crisscrossed 285 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:14.519 time and space. You know, they had something to do 286 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:18.160 on this in Palermo, the capital city, but they came 287 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.680 from the interior, and they were connected to somebody on 288 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.039 the other side of the island. But I should say 289 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:28.279 in fact that the book is strictly it strictly covers 290 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.359 the western half of Sicily, because that's where all the 291 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:37.160 real momentous and most infamous events in its history, in 292 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.519 the mafia's history have taken place, from the rise of 293 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:46.799 the rural agrarian mafia on through the takeover of Palermo 294 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.200 by the Corleonese Mob, the mob from Corleone, all the 295 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:57.640 horrible assassinations of the seventies through the early nineties, the 296 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:01.880 Pizza connection, all the heroin refle binaries that started sprouting 297 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.119 up in the sixties and seventies, the heroine that made 298 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:09.599 its way to the East coast. Pizzeri is probably familiar with. 299 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.400 To go back to, you asked a question about my 300 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:17.200 blog before I knew for sure that this was going 301 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.559 to be a book. In twenty ten, I started blogging 302 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.039 and putting a lot of these photographs online and hopes 303 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.559 of forming it into something, but also trying to get 304 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:32.799 some publicity for it. So there are a lot of 305 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:34.440 things that didn't make the book that are on the 306 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:38.119 blog Mafia Exposed dot com. So there's my little plug. 307 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.160 There you go a few Sorry. 308 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.920 So now we have the through your research and through 309 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.440 this narrative that you're telling this story. It is quite 310 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:59.000 unique to have this perspective conveyed in terms of are 311 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:04.799 your position, which is anti mafia, So that's quite unique 312 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:07.759 in writing this book and gathering any of these stories. 313 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.519 Was there any resistance? Was there any criticism? Did you 314 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:15.720 meet have any interesting encounters close encounters, we'll say, with 315 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.960 somebody that was not so happy that you're doing this? 316 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.039 Well? Generally, when you show up and then it really 317 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.839 doesn't matter whether it's a big city like Palermo or 318 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.920 a little hilltop village, because in the interior you just 319 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.880 have these tiny, little, beautiful villages on top of a 320 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:42.359 hill and the vast planes in between. You always stick out, 321 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.880 you know, they know when you're not from there, and 322 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.200 there's a think on just a natural curiosity because these 323 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:52.000 are some really small towns. And also you have to 324 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:59.400 realize that unemployment being so high, joining a mafia gang 325 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:05.440 is not irresistible. But I mean, you know, it's very 326 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:09.480 easy for a poor young kid to just want to 327 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:14.119 join up. So wherever you go, there are just young 328 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:19.119 guys hanging out watching and you know, I definitely don't 329 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:22.039 want to characterize the Sicilians as being all mafia because 330 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.400 it's a very very small percentage that have anything to 331 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.839 do directly with the mafia, aside from being shaken down 332 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:34.440 by in fact that Sicilians are very wonderful and warm people, 333 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.400 but they're you know, they do kind of keep to themselves. 334 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.960 But no matter who they are, all eyes are on you, 335 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.799 on you, So walking around with a camera with a 336 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.519 zoom lens and that kind of thing, you know, it's difficult. 337 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.000 What I would often do, particularly if it's a heavily 338 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:56.160 mob infested neighborhood, I will wait till Sunday morning, when 339 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.960 everyone's still asleep or whether they're going to church. Generally 340 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.640 it's the only time when you could find the streets 341 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.400 completely empty, so that's when I'll get my shot. It's 342 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.319 real tough. I also had a real tiny camera, my 343 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.359 girlfriend's camera in fact, for a drive by, which would 344 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:13.119 be like trying to get a picture of the prison, 345 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.880 which you're not supposed to do. And a couple of 346 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:21.119 hideouts that were sort of set up along the streets 347 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:26.720 that had tall walls and really maze like and it 348 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.240 was really stressful. A couple of times I hopped out 349 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:33.279 of the car and left the car running. My knees 350 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.400 were actually shaking as I took the pictures of a 351 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.839 one mafia boss's house, hopped back in the car and 352 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:44.880 took off. So yeah, it didn't all the way. There 353 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.920 was nothing easy about this project. 354 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:52.119 Yeah, yeah, you did extensive research. It's amazing, like you say, 355 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.440 going back two or three times just to be able 356 00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:00.680 to locate a certain place that you wanted for this book. 357 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:06.000 So that's very interesting. Tell Us about Sicily's and the 358 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:10.160 Cozin Nostra's importance to the mafia in terms of its 359 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:13.839 importance in the world, Well. 360 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:20.400 The Sicilian mafia pretty much introduced, for instance, America and 361 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:24.200 a lot of Europe to Heroin. You know, some of 362 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.640 the old godfathers would say, oh, they'd have nothing to 363 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.279 do with junk they wouldn't touch mafia wouldn't touch heroin. 364 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:35.240 But in fact, the mafia has always been just rolling 365 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:38.359 in heroin products. Even as early as the nineteen thirties. 366 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:43.759 You had Joseph Bonanos kind of a pioneer, and you 367 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:48.039 had heroin starting to come from the French to some 368 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.279 of the Corsican refineries. But the Sicilians, they're great innovation, 369 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:58.960 which really caused a wave of heroin dependency. Junkies. Junkie culture, 370 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.920 for instance in New York, sprang up in the nineteen 371 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.759 fifties really as a direct result of the Sicilian mafia. 372 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:12.519 When Lucky Luchana was who is Sicilian, was busted and 373 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:20.559 imprisoned and for prostitution. When they exported him, they kicked 374 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.279 him out and they sent him back to Italy, and 375 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:28.279 that's when he actually got the original Sicilian mafia interested 376 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:32.559 in heroin. He had a big sum at a mafia 377 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.720 convention as it were, in downtown Palermo, where he got 378 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:39.559 together all the godfathers and he brought a coterie of 379 00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:45.799 his own Italian American gangsters along with them and sort 380 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.240 of got them going on importing Asian heroin, refining it 381 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.440 in northwestern Sicily. He had a lot of refineries that 382 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:58.640 were set up and among the orchards, the orange orchards 383 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.039 and so forth, and then shipping it across the Atlantic. 384 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.200 You had a lot of the big names in the 385 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:09.920 pizza connection, Getano Bardo Lamenti, who comes from a tiny 386 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.960 little village outside of Palermo, but he was a real 387 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:21.400 instrumental in sending across all of this heroines, not the 388 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.079 Gambino family of New York and some of the Montreal 389 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:30.680 and Toronto godfathers who actually came over from southern Sicily themselves. 390 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:39.279 It was a very profitable and world changing crime. You know, 391 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:43.480 the FBI got involved ultimately, and even late in the 392 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:48.960 nineteen eighties, Rudolph Giuliani was pretty instrumental in working with 393 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:53.960 the Italian government and breaking this up. But now the 394 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.640 Sicilian mafia, as a result of all of the crackdown 395 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.759 on both the US and the Italian side, has lost 396 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:06.440 control of the international drug scene. And it's some of 397 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.640 the other Italian mafia groups from mainland Italy who have 398 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.400 kind of taken over. You have the Camorra of Naples, 399 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:20.079 and you have the Mafia of Calabria, the southernmost part 400 00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:24.079 of the Toe of the boodh of Italy called the Drangetta. 401 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.480