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No necessary dvoid over hbity I 23 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:01.119 lost the conditions eighty plus. 24 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.519 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.640 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:22.000 written about them Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 27 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.719 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.840 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:45.840 Good Evening, an incredible four decade account of murder, power, 31 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.280 and corruption in one of the country's largest police departments. 32 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.519 In nineteen seventy nine, the grusup slang of a thirteen 33 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.640 year old boy riveted the suburbs of Suffolk County, New York. 34 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.159 As a county hustled to bring the case to a 35 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:03.799 dubious resolution, local teenager emerged with a convenient story to tell. 36 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:07.040 For his cooperation, Jimmy Burke was rewarded with a job 37 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.840 as a cop. Thus began Burke's unlikely assent to the 38 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.560 top of the one of the country's largest law enforcement jurisdictions. 39 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.759 He and a crew of like minded allies utilized vengeance. 40 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.560 Gangster tactics and political leverage to become the most powerful 41 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.960 and feared figures in their suburban empire, until a Pilford 42 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:29.120 bag of sex toys brought it all crashing down. Jimmy 43 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:31.719 the King is the story of the rise, rain, and 44 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.080 paranoic fall of a corrupt cop and his regime, a 45 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:39.840 crime family with badges and guaranteed pensions. Novelistic in detail 46 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.960 and piercing in its political insight, this book will leave 47 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:47.199 you questioning who modern policing serves, who it protects, and 48 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.159 who it praise upon and abandons. The book that we're 49 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.360 featuring this evening is Jimmy the King, Murder, Vice, and 50 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:55.800 the Reign of a Dirty Cop, with my special guest, 51 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.800 journalist and author gus Garcia Roberts. Welcome to the program. 52 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.520 Thank you for this interview, gus Garcia Roberts, Thanks. 53 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:04.879 For having me on. Very excited. 54 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.840 Thank you so much and for this incredible book and 55 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:08.719 this interview. 56 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.080 Let's start off, because there's so much to cover. 57 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.120 Right with the center of this story, how it all 58 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.800 began with in nineteen seventy nine with Johnny Pious, a 59 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.120 thirteen year old tell us what happens April twentieth nineteen 60 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:23.879 seventy nine. 61 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.719 Sure, so in Smithtown, New York, which was us is 62 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.879 a suburb about forty to fifty miles east of New 63 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:34.159 York City, the body of thirteen year old boy was 64 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:39.039 discovered behind a schoolyard in suburbia out there, and that 65 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:44.759 was John Pius. And the police found six small stones 66 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.360 stuff down his throat and he had been badly beaten. 67 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.919 And so it sort of created like this existential crisis 68 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:55.759 in these young suburbs was twenty years previous, and then 69 00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:00.960 potato farmland to find out who did it and and 70 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:02.919 make them accountable. 71 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:07.639 So right away Suffolk County is it is called, and 72 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:11.840 their detectives assigned to this. What happens right from the 73 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:14.680 very beginning of this investigation, How does it proceed? 74 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.839 Well? So, one of the first things that the detectives 75 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:23.360 noticed Pius's body was that he had an imprint on 76 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.079 his face that they called it a Greek cross and 77 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.800 essentially was a design that was clearly from the bottom 78 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.560 of the footprints, as in one of his killers or 79 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:39.439 his killer had apparently stopped on his face with a 80 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.240 with a sneaker that was distinctly of the Puma brand. 81 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:46.800 And so you know, the homicide detectives of Suffolk County 82 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.319 for decades before this and for years after this, were 83 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.720 sort of like a unique tribe, you know, as I 84 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.800 learned in reporting the story, I mean this book, and 85 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:00.360 that you know, they relied almost purely on the sort 86 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.839 of hunches and instinct and the way that they closed 87 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:09.399 cases with very little exception, was by getting confessions. You know, 88 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.120 they had very little use, for example, for forensics. So 89 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.000 from the very beginning, these detectives seized on the idea 90 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.639 that this kid had a puma imprint on his face, 91 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:24.480 which to them meant that it had been other kids 92 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:28.800 who had done this, because you know, children wore puma sneakers. 93 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.000 And so the way that they went about trying to 94 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:39.920 solve this case was by essentially at random, dragging teenagers 95 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:45.199 former classmates of John Pious had some and slightly older kids, 96 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.639 almost all of them miners, though, dragging them off the 97 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:53.759 street and into interrogation rooms and lying to their parents 98 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.399 about where they were, not allowing the kids to have 99 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.560 access to lawyers and interrogating and the goal was pretty simple, 100 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.839 interrogate them until they confessed. And during one of these 101 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:11.040 interrogation sessions. One boy did confess. His name was Peter 102 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.279 Carterrero and you know, like others, he had been separated 103 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.240 from his parents. He and a couple of other friends 104 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:22.160 had been locked in a precinct for hours at end, 105 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.759 and the parents were concerned that there had been another 106 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.839 killing because they can find their kids, and cops that 107 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.319 told them that they didn't know where the kids were. 108 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:36.519 And at one point Peter Carterreiro, who really was sort 109 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.759 of the least likely suspect, one of the least likely 110 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:43.519 suspects among this group in Smithtown, to admitted a murder. 111 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.040 He was basically he was literally a boy scout who 112 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.160 had never been in trouble before. Eventually, police drive him 113 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:54.319 to the scene of the crime and he confesses in 114 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.639 the backseat of their car, and he implicates three of 115 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.720 his friends, his brother and two friends. And the confession 116 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:05.800 is tape recorded, and what he later claimed is that 117 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.680 the detectives, before they you know, started the tape recorder, 118 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.480 told him exactly what to say, so he implicates himself 119 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.399 and three other friends. The and the and the murder 120 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:18.360 of John Pins. 121 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:24.480 Now you detail the techniques that the homicide squad utilizes 122 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:28.759 in this investigation. And you also talk about the prosecution's 123 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:30.319 rule in this early on. 124 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:31.839 Tell us about the. 125 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.399 Prosecution's rule early on, if that was typical or not, 126 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.000 and what about witnesses. 127 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:42.639 Right, So, typically the prosecutors, you know, this county would 128 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:45.600 get involved once there was an arrest the charges. But 129 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:49.720 I think because this case kind of had such seismic 130 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:52.759 importance to the residents of Suffolk County and it was 131 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.160 you know, covered with like screaming headlines and newsday at 132 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:00.839 the local newspaper, at one point the DA's office he decided, 133 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:05.439 you know, we need to get involved earlier, and you know, 134 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:09.639 a sort of determination to get charges as quickly as 135 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.759 possible sort of came about. And so the prosecutor who 136 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.759 handled the case and he went to the precinct the 137 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.439 night that these that Peter Carteriro and his friends were 138 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:23.160 being interrogated was a guy named Tom Spoda, and so 139 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:28.000 Spoda sort of, you know, he listened to Peter Carteriro's 140 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.519 confession on tape after it was done, and by his 141 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.840 own account, he was sort of underwhelmed. One the confession 142 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.039 did not really at all match the facts of the 143 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.919 crime scene, and in fact, you know, it contradicted it 144 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.879 in pretty key ways. One of them, for example, was 145 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.320 Peter Carteriro said in the confession that his brother Mike 146 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.080 after during the attack on John Pius, and his brother 147 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:59.600 Mike put Pius's bicycle up against the tree behind the schoolyard. 148 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:03.320 But the fact of the crime scene was that bike 149 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:08.279 was actually on the ground when when bystanders first discovered 150 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:13.000 the body, and it was later placed up against a 151 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.320 tree by one of those bystanders who discovered the body, 152 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:21.639 and then when police arrived, when certain detectives arrived, they 153 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.440 saw that the bike was up against the tree. But 154 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:27.519 in fact, you know, the sort of unrefuted court testimony 155 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:30.440 that it was not. So what you have you had 156 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:33.879 several examples of that were sort of like a hell 157 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.200 embedded in the confession and embedded in other statements that 158 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.919 come out, and sort of the cast serious doubt and 159 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.080 those statements and you know, kind of begged the question 160 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.440 was for these facts planted by the tex so anyway, 161 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.600 So Botas sort of knew that he had a problem here, 162 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:55.480 and then one you know, there's these contradictions, and you know, 163 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:59.759 even more primarily Peter Cartero was fifteen years old and 164 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:04.879 he was in a detective's car and being interrogated without 165 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.320 lawyer or parent, which was illegal under New York state law. 166 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.240 So you know, most likely, as would have eventually end 167 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.759 up happening, the confession would be tossed. So what Spota 168 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:20.080 needed was was sort of like his hallmark his style 169 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:24.759 of prosecution, which was witnesses who were later privy to 170 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:31.000 supposed confessions. So he sort of started putting out feelers 171 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.720 among all of the wayward kids of Smithtown, looking for 172 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:39.759 those who might have a story about one of these 173 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.600 four kids confessing to them later. And so this process 174 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.840 took months, and you know in the book, I sort 175 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:51.919 of compare it to the mobsters, you know, gathering together 176 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:55.799 pretending like nothing is nothing is wrong, where in reality 177 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:58.200 they're they're sort of wondering who's going to snitch on 178 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.559 the other to the fence. You have all the sort 179 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.279 of kids of smith Town, typically those who you know 180 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:08.000 or juvenile delite, must have been in some trouble before, 181 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:12.679 and you know they're gathering in that summer following the murder, 182 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.679 gathering in bleachers or fields and you know, hanging out. 183 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.480 But there's an undertone to it because some of these 184 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:24.919 kids are tempting to get statements implicating the others and 185 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.559 bring them to the prosecutor's office. And that's eventually what happens. 186 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:34.360 And one witness among a crew of burglars and drug 187 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:38.000 users who were the town emerges as the most solid 188 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.600 witness in this case. And a guy who sort of 189 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.919 you know, outlives the tape confession and outlast the other 190 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.639 witnesses in the case. And that guy is the is 191 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.000 the main character for lack of a better term, of 192 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:53.840 the book, which is who is Jimmy Burke? 193 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.879 You say, born James Charles Brooke in October nineteen sixty four, 194 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.320 but his father's in law enforcement is and his grandfather 195 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.919 as well. Tell us a little bit about the background 196 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:07.679 of Charles James Charles Burke. 197 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:12.879 Sure, so he was from originally from you know, like 198 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.320 so many characters in this book, And if you're familiar 199 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.240 with with Long Island, this won't be surprising because there's 200 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.360 sort of a pipeline from the outer boroughs to Nassa 201 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:25.679 on particularly separate county. As you know, city dwellers kind 202 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.440 of gain upward mobility and move out to the Burkes. 203 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:32.120 So he was from Ozone Park, Queens, which was a 204 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.879 very tough neighborhood home to the Gambi crime family. And 205 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.559 you know, my reporting is as a younger kid, he 206 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.759 was actually tremely smart and actually quite a good student. 207 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.919 I'm in a dutiful student at a Catholic school there. 208 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.399 He had moved to Smithtown shortly before the murder, and 209 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.399 that appeared to sort of really change his personality. It 210 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.120 was following a divorce between his parents and his mom 211 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:00.639 had remarried, and he sort of me he kind of 212 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:03.840 fell in with this crew of kids that you know, 213 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.000 their their peers derided them as pit people because they 214 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.159 hung out in an area behind Smithtown High School East 215 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.679 that was referred to as the Ping and is typically 216 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.519 where people smoked cigarettes and the kids, you know along 217 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:21.399 out there were off intruants and drug users and Jimmy 218 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:25.480 sort of proudly proclaimed that he was a drug user, 219 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.639 and he hung out with a crew of kids who 220 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.039 were known to be smith Town's you know, leading burglars, 221 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.279 so much so that you know, they tracked the price 222 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.720 of gold and they would sort of go through people's 223 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.159 unlocked doors because of smith Town, they didn't really lock 224 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:43.159 their doors because they felt so comfortable in suburbia go 225 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.480 through people's unlocked doors and rifle through jewelry boxes that 226 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:50.000 come out with gold and pawn them off. And so 227 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.159 that's who James Burke was at the time that he 228 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.960 emerged as Quota's sort of key witness. He was fifteen 229 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:02.159 years old. He was very poor student, and there was 230 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.720 signs that he was on the police radar and that 231 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.480 he was bound for trouble. But he was also a 232 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.799 very smart and manipulative kid, and so once he sort 233 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:16.919 of became Spotah's witness. Unlike his pals who also became 234 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.559 as Spota's witnesses in these cases, you know, those guys 235 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.799 kind of wanted nothing more to do with cops and 236 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.799 prosecutors other than what they had to do, you know, 237 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.519 particularly to get out from under some case of their face. 238 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:34.080 But Jimmy had a fascination with the homicide squad and 239 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:37.039 with the top prosecutors of Suffolk County, and as you mentioned, 240 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.120 his father and his grandfather were both YPD and so 241 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.519 he starts hanging around the offices and he almost becomes 242 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.879 like Tomsta's works this strange sight of this teenager hanging 243 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:53.039 around homicidal and he kind of becomes indispensable to those offices. 244 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.159 You talk it's not a humorous book, but you talk 245 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.840 about that through Spoda. Their workshopping the story for the 246 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:04.200 grand jury found that humorous, but it is telling that 247 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:08.080 that's what you called the progression of the story that 248 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.039 Jimmy Burke was telling on behalf Ofoda. 249 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:11.799 Thomas Boda. 250 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:14.519 Yeah. Well, one of my favorite gets as a reporter, 251 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:17.679 you know, doing this book was was a video that 252 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.759 I got from nineteen eighty one where it was Spoda 253 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.080 seated at the desk sort of having the various teenage 254 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.919 witnesses that had become the glue in this case come 255 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.879 in and talk about how Peter Carterro and his brother 256 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.360 and his friends said, how they were implicated and statements 257 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.720 made these kids, and it was really interesting watching. And 258 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.279 one of them was Jimmy Burke and he comes in 259 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.960 and he meets Tom Spoda, and this interaction is filmed 260 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.159 by somebody filming on behalf of the DA's office, and 261 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.799 it's really interesting watching these interactions, particularly with Jimmy Burke. 262 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.279 His story doesn't match what he later says on the stand. 263 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.840 And then you sort of see, you know, in later 264 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:03.440 times when because makes other testimony in the case, sometimes 265 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.159 years later the testimony keeps shifting, and so the way 266 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.159 that I saw that video was they were still workshopping 267 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.519 what he was going to say. And you know, essentially 268 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.039 what Burke did say and what he said, you know, 269 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.960 in various trials because you know they were there were 270 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:25.960 four defendants, was exactly what the prosecutor's office I needed 271 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:28.720 him to say. And as I as I write, you 272 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.240 know that later was directly rewarded by the prosecutor's office. 273 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.919 So you outline how they try to guarantee fill in 274 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.080 the holes. Thomas Boda and his minions try to plug 275 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.279 up the holes and and use their resources. You talk 276 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:50.480 about someone named a Locke and another guy named Thorpe 277 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:51.399 in prison. 278 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:54.279 So so tell us about this plan. 279 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:59.080 And how they get these guys further involved and further 280 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:00.960 incriminated in these crimes. 281 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.920 Right, So, in some jurisdictions, they you know, prosecutors try 282 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:10.160 to stay away from jail house wins because they are inherently, 283 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.960 you know, not to be believed because one there people 284 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.000 in the jail house. They're people that have interactions with 285 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:19.640 the criminal world and are you know, in all like 286 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.200 they had criminals themselves, which is why they're in jail, 287 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.359 and two they have something to work work out from 288 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:29.119 under you know, they're in jail, they are can directly 289 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.559 benefit from prosecutors and police liking their story that they 290 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:35.839 are to tell. But in Suffolk County that's just not 291 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:40.200 the case, at least around it this time. They you know, 292 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.400 jailhouse snitching was so popular that there that again there 293 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.319 would be sort of auditions where the inmates would get 294 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.880 for a detective and say what is especially in a 295 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.880 high profile case where the detectives and prosecutors were seeking informants, 296 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.839 they would tell a story about what that inmate told 297 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.240 them while in the jailhouse with them, and the detectives 298 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.160 would typically pick the person whose story they liked the best, 299 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.839 And so that sort of happened in this case. You know, 300 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.799 the stuff that couldn't be covered by the needs, that 301 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.720 couldn't be handled by Burke and by other teenage witnesses 302 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.799 along with him, were handled by a couple of very 303 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.799 dubious jail house witnesses. And you know, I guess the 304 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.680 one problem is how do you get a jail house 305 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.680 witness to inform on somebody who's not in jail, Which 306 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.000 was a problem in this case because these kids. Once 307 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.480 they were indicted, they were out on bail quickly and 308 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.759 didn't spend any time in jail. And so you have 309 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.559 these cases that popped up where the kids were caught, 310 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:49.200 you know, with low level burglaries which were no doubt 311 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.680 done on their part. Like for example, in one of 312 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.880 the cases, one of the defendants was caught in having 313 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.880 stolen the set of walkie talkies from his high school. 314 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.759 And the informants who sort of helped, who sort of 315 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:05.720 set him up in that case, one of them was 316 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.200 Jimmy Kirk and the other one was another teenage witness 317 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.799 who was known as an informant and set down. So 318 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.119 by those means, they get these kids in the jail 319 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.640 houses and then from there sort of sort of open 320 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:21.160 game for arden criminals who kind of first of all, 321 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.599 they get the newspapers out there, so they read about 322 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.880 the high profile cases and then they know how to 323 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.839 spin the facts for the cops. And so, you know, 324 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.200 one a pair of these jail house and mad speak 325 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.720 became the key witnesses for one of the defendants, and 326 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.680 they you know, the story was again extremely convenient. You know, 327 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.279 one of the jail house witnesses said that one of 328 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.599 the defendants basically spilled his whole saga exit which which 329 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.000 pretty much matched what the police have said about killing 330 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:57.480 John Pious and you know, including complete dialogue from all 331 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:02.000 the players. And this was a witness who had a 332 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:08.319 documented drug addiction problem, and he had received a deal 333 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.640 in return for his testimony. And so you know, basically, 334 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.920 through this like patchwork method, typically relying on witnesses who 335 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:20.079 had something to gain from their testimony, the prosecutors build 336 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.799 convictions against these four kids. There was no actual physical 337 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.240 evidence tying them to the murder of John Pies. Yeah. 338 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:31.319 So you talk about the convictions of all of these 339 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:36.920 young men, the Cordereros and the brothers, and also eventually 340 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.799 Tom Ryan, and you say the only person that Burke 341 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.440 was not involved with in decimating with his testimony was 342 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:44.160 Tom Ryan. 343 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.400 And right after that you write that there. 344 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.839 Was a reversal of fortune for Jimmy Burke in that 345 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.559 those convictions for his dui were helped by law enforcement. 346 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.160 Tell us how his fortune changed and what happened to 347 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.839 those charges and how his life seemed to be turned 348 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:05.759 around by this event. 349 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.440 Sure, and if I get just emphasize, you know, during 350 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:13.559 his testimony against these various defendants. The inconsistencies were blatant. 351 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.799 For example, in one trial where he's testifying its one defendant, 352 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.880 a buddy of his, he might say that that person said, 353 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.319 you know, a incriminating statement at a certain place. I'm 354 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.400 you know, in Smithtown, Nears, I believe in you know, 355 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:31.160 new high school bleachers. And then in his testimony against 356 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.720 another one of the defendants, he might say that guy 357 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:36.400 said the exact same thing in the exact same place, 358 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.279 at the exact the same time of year. And so 359 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:41.559 it was almost like he was just you know, taking 360 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.640 stock testimony that was incriminating and it helped get a 361 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.000 conviction in one case, putting it in the mouth to 362 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:52.160 the other. So you know, he was a very useful witness, 363 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.039 you know, in the early years of this case. And 364 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:58.920 and he had gotten a d UI had then not 365 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.640 shown up a court to address it, and then there 366 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.440 had been a bench warrant made out to his for 367 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.680 his arrests. This became an issue when he applied to 368 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.440 become a police officer with the NYPD, and you know, 369 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.440 there was a lot of other reasons why he would 370 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.759 have been unqualified, including you know, documented drug use and 371 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.880 the fact that you know, his friends were basically your 372 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.559 crew of the most troubled kids in spit town, and 373 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.200 by his own word, were also convicted murderers. So he 374 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.160 had he had black marks against in applying to become 375 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.920 a cop. The main one, you know, from a sort 376 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:39.680 of strictly procedural point of view of the vetting policies 377 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.119 of a police department, was the idea that he had 378 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:44.559 not shown up to court to deal with this bench warm. 379 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.400 So one of the prosecutors in the pious case at 380 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:53.640 that time wrote on a Suffolk County DA stationery the 381 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:59.799 Senate to NYPD and and said, essentially excuse for having 382 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.640 incurred a bench warn. The reason why was because he 383 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:06.960 was supposed to be in Suffolk County testifying in a 384 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.039 major case, and so he couldn't be in the neighboring county, 385 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:13.720 Nasa County to addresses duy, and that's why he had 386 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:17.640 a benchwarn. And the NYPD accepted that. And I don't 387 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.960 think that they fact checked it, because you know, I 388 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.599 did just using transcripts of the pious case, which clearly 389 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.279 the pious prosecutor was implying that those that was the 390 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:31.960 case that Burke was testifying in and there's testify in 391 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.799 court the day that he incurred the bench warn. Not 392 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.200 only that, but at one point he was actually asked 393 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.640 in court, why did you get this bench warn by 394 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.039 a defense attorney and he said, I had a roofing 395 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.720 job to do that day, so he you know, he 396 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:50.079 he contradicted the prosecutor's version of events. And you know, 397 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.519 I tried to ask the prosecutor, who's now a prominent 398 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.039 defense attorney in Suffolk County, about that letter, and he 399 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:58.359 refused to answer any questions about it. So, you know, 400 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.240 I think the only I have no reason to think 401 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:07.160