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Every 25 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:33.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 27 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:37.040 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 28 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:51.519 Good Evening. Gary Scogan's tour in Vietnam nineteen seventy one 29 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.400 to nineteen seventy two was the best year of his life. 30 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.000 Living with fellow CID investigators in an isolated hooch overlooking 31 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.200 the South China Sea at the U S Base at 32 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:06.879 Shu Lai, Skogan enforced military drug laws during his working 33 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:09.680 hours and yet managed to pursue a life of perfect 34 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:14.120 hedonism far from the farm life in the southwestern North 35 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.439 Dakota where he grew up. With unlimited access to cheap beer, 36 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:21.639 a wide variety of compliant Vietnamese women, and a gep 37 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:26.000 he had somehow commandeered, Scogan perfected his criminal investigative skills 38 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.759 at a time when U. S. Troop morale had reached 39 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:34.080 its nadir. This unconventional, unheroic, and unapologetic book is not 40 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:37.960 a typical Vietnam memoir. Together with eighty percent of the 41 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.960 two million men and women who served in Vietnam, Skogan 42 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.159 spent his time behind the scenes at a large support base. 43 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:49.199 He did not slog on midnight patrols through Vietcong tunnels 44 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.599 or rice paddies studded with booby traps. He spent his 45 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.840 year investigating the men who endangered the lives of their 46 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.280 fellow soldiers by giving themselves over to unrestrained drug use. 47 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.199 Scogan's gritty narrative proof that some whose names are insized 48 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.759 on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall died in less than 49 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:12.400 heroic circumstances. Backed by impeccable research in the files of 50 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:18.960 the Natural Archives and Records Administration, this unromanticized account reveals 51 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.800 the sordidness of the war in its late phases, and 52 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:26.280 questions the validity of seeing all Vietnam veterans as victims. 53 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.639 The book that we're featuring this evening is Not All Heroes, 54 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.520 An unapologetic memoir of the Vietnam War nineteen seventy one 55 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.960 to nineteen seventy two, with my special guest, Vietnam veteran 56 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.719 police officer and author Gary Scogan. Welcome to the program, 57 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:46.039 and thank you for a Greenness interview. Gary Scogan, Thank you, Dan, 58 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:49.960 thank you very much. I just wanted to mention for 59 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.240 those people that might be a bit confused. We did 60 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.120 this interview last week, but the audio was horrible, So 61 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.039 as fairness to the audience and yourself and myself, we 62 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.639 just agreed to well, we have the ability to reschedule 63 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.319 this interview for the benefit of the show itself. So 64 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.280 thank you very much for being able to do that. Now, Gary, 65 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:14.800 as we spoke last week, let's take our audience from 66 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:20.600 how we go from we mentioned in the introduction about 67 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:26.759 your life in North Dakota. Talk about your life in 68 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.279 North Dakota when you grew up, and tell us a 69 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:33.360 little bit about that life before you ever thought of 70 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.639 enlisting in the military. 71 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:39.680 Okay, Well, I was born in Headinger, North Dakota, with 72 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.079 the southwestern part of the state, nineteen forty five. I 73 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:51.279 grew up on a farm. I attended school for twelve 74 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:53.879 years on the same piece of property in Headingon, North Dakota. 75 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.480 Headinger is a very small town at the time that 76 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.920 I was growing up. I think it was probably about 77 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:05.759 fifty fifteen hundred people. After I graduated from high school, 78 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.959 I worked around heading Her for a little bit and 79 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.040 then I moved to Cordelaine, Idaho. I was eighteen at 80 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.480 the time I got myself a job working in a 81 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:20.680 hardware store there, and as I got closer to I 82 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.680 guess I would say adulthood. I was thinking along the 83 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.920 lines of wanting to be a police officer, and I 84 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:32.040 was kind of pursuing joining the Spokane, Washington Police Department, 85 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:35.160 which is only about forty miles away from Courtelaine. But 86 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.040 of course I had to be twenty one before I 87 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.920 could do that. Well, in nineteen sixty five, just before 88 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.680 I before my twentieth birthday, two things happened that kind 89 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.680 of changed my life and changed my plans and dreams. 90 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:57.240 One of them was watching television news broadcasts as they 91 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:04.600 evacuated the de dependence of military personnel out of Vietnam. 92 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.560 The second thing that happened also occurred in nineteen sixty five, 93 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.519 and it was in December of sixty five I received 94 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:16.600 a draft notice. Back then, there was mandatory draft for all, 95 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:21.000 or mandatory draft registration for anyone that was mail that 96 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.879 was eighteen years of age. I had done my duty, 97 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:29.560 I had registered for the draft, and then I assumed 98 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.000 Vietnam had something to do with it. They were building 99 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.240 up troops to go to Vietnam, and I received my 100 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.439 draft notice. I didn't want to be going to the 101 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:45.000 military as an infantryman. That didn't quite seem like something 102 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.040 I was going to want to do. And because of 103 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.959 the fact that I had designs on being in law enforcement, 104 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.839 I talked to a recruiter in Spokane, Washington found out 105 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:00.000 about the ability to enlist to be a military policeman. 106 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:04.279 So that's what I did. I enlisted, and in January 107 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.839 nineteen sixty six, I went into the Army with the 108 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.800 promises of being a military policeman. I went to basic 109 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.399 training in Fort Ord, California. I quickly realized at that 110 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.160 point in time that I'd made the right decision because 111 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:22.879 basic training is basic infantry training, and I knew then 112 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.839 that I did not want, definitely did not want to 113 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.879 be an infantryman. I then went from there to Military 114 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.680 Police School in Fort Gordon, Georgia. Upon completion of Military 115 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.720 Police School, I went to an Air Force base in 116 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.319 Insulac Air Force Base in Madonna, Turkey, and I got 117 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.600 my first curve by the military. I thought I was 118 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:48.879 going to be working law enforcement, and they had me 119 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:54.560 there guarding as a security guard basically for munitions in Turkey. 120 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:03.680 After being there for three months left. I went to France, 121 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.600 but I was only in France for a very brief 122 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:10.199 period of time and was then sent to Germany because 123 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:13.439 at that time Charles de Gaulle was kicking everyone out 124 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.600 of France. When I got to Germany, I found out 125 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.079 that again I was going to be working as a 126 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:25.160 security guard, and that didn't set with the designs of 127 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.600 what I had in store for myself. So I found 128 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.240 out that if I enlisted, I could be transferred to 129 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.879 re enlisted, I should say, I could be transferred to 130 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:39.120 a law enforcement military police unit, which I did. While 131 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:46.320 working this military police unit, I'd become familiar with CID 132 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:49.879 agents and thought that that's something that I would like 133 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:54.399 to pursue. So I put in an application and ultimately 134 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:59.480 I was accepted, and in nineteen sixty nine, I went 135 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:03.120 back to Fort Gordon, Georgia, attended the CID's school. Was 136 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:06.519 then transferred to the city of San Francisco, or I 137 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:08.960 began working as a CID agent. 138 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.759 That sorry, Gary, I'm sorry, sorry, Gary. What is a 139 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:15.840 CID agent? 140 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.639 I'm sorry. CID is a criminal investigator for the Department 141 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.799 of the Army. It's basically, I guess the best way 142 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:28.519 that I could describe it is FDI for the Army. 143 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.960 The people that work at wear civilian clothes and they 144 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:38.159 are criminal investigators for the army and handle murders, burglaries, robberies, 145 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:44.039 drug cases, et cetera. While I was in San Francisco, 146 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:49.200 I've got my first introduction to Vietnam and what that 147 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:53.080 was there were The very first thing that happened while 148 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:58.480 I was there was there were some allegations of atrocities 149 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.000 at Meeli and Vietnam, where Lieutenant Calli and his troops 150 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.679 had gone into a village and virtually mass occurred a 151 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:11.919 couple of one hundred Vietnamese, including women and children. And 152 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:16.360 as a result of that, they were the CID agents 153 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:21.720 in Vietnam were sending out requests for follow up and 154 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.919 investigations in regards to the Meli incident. And then of 155 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.120 course once that one started, there was the you know, 156 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.639 ball rolling down the hill and picking up speed because 157 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.039 there was now other atrocities that were coming out from 158 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:45.320 other troops in regards to other locations. So because of 159 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.120 these follow up investigations, that was that was basically my 160 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.639 first introduction to Vietnam. Because I started doing some of 161 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:56.559 these follow up investigations in regards to the atrocities. One 162 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.320 of the other thing that took place when I was 163 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:05.440 in San Francisco was a family whose son was killed 164 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.240 in Vietnam and they were notified by the military that 165 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.039 he was killed in Vietnam, and because of the atrocity 166 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.960 investigations that were taking place, it was all over the news. 167 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.080 Because of that, they had or informed the opinion that 168 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:25.039 their son had been murdered. So they initiated an investigation 169 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:32.320 themselves through Congression all and things like that. That resulted 170 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.399 in an investigation of that, and I was sent out 171 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:41.919 to interview them, at which time I asked them for 172 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.399 the evidence or if they had any evidence that their 173 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:48.000 son was murdered, and they showed me some letters that 174 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:52.039 had come from their son, and in the letters, he 175 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.240 indicated that there was a man that he worked with, 176 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.759 a sergeant that he worked with, that was crazy and 177 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.120 the guy run around with a gun all the time, etc. 178 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.879 This didn't make a lot of sense to me because 179 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.039 this was a combat zone and I'm sure that there's 180 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:08.559 a lot of people running around with guns. So I 181 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:14.360 queried Vietnam CID and ultimately I had news for the 182 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.919 family that they didn't want to hear. And that was 183 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.080 the fact that he had committed suicide, and the Army 184 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.879 had basically not told them that he'd committed suicide. That 185 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.840 the fact that he had just died while he was 186 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.720 in Vietnam, which was one of the things that I 187 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.080 found out much much later, was this was a common 188 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:40.080 practice on the part of the Army to not be 189 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.879 totally completely forthcoming with family members when there was a death. 190 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.679 And I'm not sure if the military was protecting themselves 191 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:49.039 or protecting the family. 192 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.080 And that included all kinds of deaths, overdoses of suicides, 193 00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:57.960 just misadventure. 194 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:04.360 That's correct, it gon, sorry, go ahead. 195 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.559 I wanted to just the may Ally massacre. You we've 196 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.440 dealt with it in terms of described the incident and 197 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.879 Sergeant Kelly I believe his name is. But you explained 198 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.720 in the book how this could possibly and not be defended, 199 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.039 but how this could possibly happen, that women and children 200 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:32.960 would be considered you explained in your book, and I 201 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.600 won't take the words out of your mouth, so tell 202 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:38.399 us how you explain how this may have happened, whether 203 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:41.399 it's not to say it's right, a massacre is a massacre, 204 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:45.759 of innocent people killed is exactly that. But tell us 205 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:49.879 how it could happen by the We'll say the behavior 206 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:51.480 of the Vietnamese. 207 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.759 Well, one of the one of the things that back then, 208 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.840 females in our armies were not combat soldiers. Females in 209 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:07.480 our armies held administrative jobs for nurses, worked in supply. 210 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.639 That kind of thing is in our army over in Vietnam. 211 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.840 After I got there, I found this out very very quickly, 212 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:21.080 that it was not uncommon to see females in uniform, 213 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:25.399 to see females carrying AK forty seven. It was not 214 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:30.879 uncommon to see a teenage boy, a young teenage boy 215 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.720 carrying an AK forty seven. This was not uncommon to see. Now, 216 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.399 I'm not talking about combat troops that I come in 217 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.080 contact with, because I didn't come in combat contact with 218 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.000 in a combat situation with this people. This is just 219 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.919 people that you would see in the villages. As an 220 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.559 example of that, I will give an example that's in 221 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:57.639 the book. One day, while I was in tu Life, 222 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:02.759 I asked to the debate, and as I'm driving down 223 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.799 Qol One, which was the main road through Vietnam, I 224 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.919 see a crowd of people and I see a truck 225 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.600 sitting there, and as I approach, I pulled to the 226 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:15.919 side of the road because the road's kind of blocked anyway, 227 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.080 and I'm curious as to what's going on. It looks 228 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.919 like there's some types of activity taking place. And when 229 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.279 I get out of the vehicle, I walk over and 230 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:32.399 there's a woman standing there in uniform. She's wearing combat 231 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:37.039 fatigue and she is making a speech in Vietnamese to 232 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:42.519 these people that are there, and I immediately recognize this female. 233 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.440 She happens to be a cocktail waitress at one of 234 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:51.519 the clubs on the base that July. Now, well, she's 235 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:55.600 giving this speech, I notice that basically a little bit 236 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.279 at her feet and a little bit off to the 237 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:01.279 side is two bodies laying there. And these two bodies 238 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.919 are decapitated. They had their hands cut off, they had 239 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.320 their feet cut off. And on the other side of 240 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:14.679 her are two wooden ammal boxes. And in the ammal boxes, 241 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.639 laying down on the flat surface would be the palms 242 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:22.519 of the hands palms down of these two individuals. At 243 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.480 the base of the box would be were the feet 244 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.200 of the two individuals, just popped up against the bottom. 245 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.159 And then at the top of the box was the 246 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.399 heads of these two individuals. So it looked like about 247 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.559 an eighteen inch tall man sitting there. Wow, and this 248 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.080 is not And she was standing there with a machete 249 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.519 and she had blood all over. And this is not 250 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.080 the type of thing that we here in the United 251 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:53.840 States would envision one of our females back then, you know, 252 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.200 as a combat soldier. And now I agree, we don't 253 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.440 go around decapitating and cutting hands off, et cetera. But 254 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.079 this just is just to show you that the females 255 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.599 in Vietnam, it was not uncommon for them to be 256 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.559 involved in some military thing. And in her case, she 257 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.640 worked on the Tuly base by day and was in 258 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.400 some sort of militia by night. 259 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:18.440 Wow. 260 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.400 You talk about another example where a six year old 261 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.920 boy was The facts were that he had thrown a 262 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:28.960 grenade into a tank, killing soldiers. 263 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:34.000 Yes, that's true. A small child. You know, he has 264 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.759 no idea. I'm sure what he's doing, but you know, 265 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.160 he's you know, like six years old, five years old, 266 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:45.680 something like that. And he takes the lobbs a hand 267 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.440 grenade or lobbs. I shouldn't say it that way. You know, 268 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.599 he walks up to a jeep and drops the hand 269 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:55.480 grenade into the gas tank of the jeeps, detonating it. 270 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:58.720 This is the kind of thing that people had to 271 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:02.319 watch out for all the time, because this kind of 272 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.640 stuff took place on a regular basis. 273 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:11.279 Right now, you talk about this prevailing attitude, trying to 274 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:13.480 get the vivid portrayal that you do in your book 275 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.000 and this brief interview that we have, But we have 276 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.480 a bunch of divergent elements going on here and issues. 277 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.880 Vietnam War was not without its controversy right from the 278 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:32.319 very beginning, but especially as the war war on, let's say, 279 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.680 an attitude towards the war changed and not for the better. 280 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.359 So tell us what the prevailing attitude was in nineteen 281 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:46.039 seventy one, we'll say from US citizens, But what was 282 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:49.960 the attitude with soldiers there? And described when you got 283 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.440 to Shoely in Vietnam? What was the overall condition of 284 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.880 the soldiers? What did you witness that you even though 285 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.720 you I don't know what you expected, but you probably 286 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.839 found this surprising. So tell us what you did observe 287 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.720 as soon as you got there in the morale and 288 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.480 what was the attitude? Tell us a little bit. 289 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.079 About that well, when I first got to Vietnam, I 290 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:16.880 had been in the military five years, and anybody that's 291 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.559 haven't ever been in the military, or people that have 292 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:21.960 read about it, etc. There is a certain amount of 293 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.440 discipline and protocol and procedures and things that the military 294 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.839 follows on a regular basis. When I and then by 295 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:34.519 the same token, when I went to Chuly or when 296 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.440 I went to Vietnam, my perception was that I was 297 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.640 going to be going to a combat zone. And when 298 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.920 I got to Chuly, the first thing that I realized 299 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:52.920 at that point in time was that the place that 300 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 I was at was a metropolitan area. It had like 301 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.960 the twenty six mile perimeter around it. There were businesses there, 302 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:06.039 px's and all this stuff, the theater, there were nightclubs 303 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:10.319 or clubs, I should say not nightclubs, but the clubs. 304 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:13.599 You know. It was just just like being in a city, 305 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.880 except for the fact that the all the buildings were 306 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:20.160 made out of plywood with corrugated steel roofing, et cetera. 307 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:23.440 The second thing that I noticed right away when I 308 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.920 got there was the fact that there didn't appear to 309 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.519 be a whole lot of disciplines as far as the 310 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:36.480 protocol was concerned in regards to, for example, of the uniforms. 311 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.359 I had never in my five years prior seen someone 312 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:44.000 with a peace symbol pinned to their uniform. Back in 313 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.200 the seventies was the Flower Children era of you know, 314 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:53.119 the question authority type thing that was okay. 315 00:20:52.880 --> 00:21:00.240 Round two, name something that's not boring laundry. 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Well, I get to 344 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.240 July and one of the first things that I noticed 345 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.559 about the troops is it is the piece metals and 346 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:25.880 the the beads that they're wearing around their neck, bead 347 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.279 bracelets that they're wearing. If you took you know, if 348 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.680 they took the uniform off of them and planted them 349 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:39.000 in the United States, they'd fit right in. That really 350 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.799 shocked me when I saw that, because I had never 351 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.119 seen the military uniform disrespected the way that it was 352 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.039 by the troops that were there. Now, I'm not saying 353 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.640 all the troops did that, you know, the officers obviously 354 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.519 didn't I never saw officers with peace metals tinted their 355 00:22:55.599 --> 00:23:01.319 chest or wearing beads. I just was the enlisted men, 356 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:04.279 the lower ranking enlisted men, that were doing this, and 357 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:09.279 it was obvious that the military had lost control. The 358 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.960 second thing that I noticed along those same lines was 359 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:19.039 the fact that the black troops had kind of put 360 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:24.200 themselves in a attitude of their enslaves in a white 361 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.039 man's war. Well, as a result of this, they wore 362 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.440 what they called slave bracelets, and these slave bracelets or 363 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:37.880 slave jewelry was braided out of black bootlaces. So they 364 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.039 had bracelets braided that they wore on their wrists. They 365 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.559 had choker chains that they wore around their neck. Some 366 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.240 of them had bands that were braided and above their 367 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.559 bysets they would have a braided configuration that would be 368 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.000 six to eight inches long that would go between the 369 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.599 wrist and the elbow. And they wore all this stuff 370 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:04.119 with their uniforms. Now back in the United States, the 371 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:08.039 attitude back there was this was not a war that 372 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.759 there was not a popular war. There was a lot 373 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:17.160 of protests taking place here in the United States that 374 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.000 were anti war. There were people at that time, there 375 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:24.799 was a draft that I previously mentioned there were people 376 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.880 that were going running off to Canada to avoid the 377 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.359 draft and coming up with very excuses as to why 378 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:38.640 they shouldn't be drafted. And at the same time it 379 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.799 just you know, you were taking these same people that 380 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:47.920 had that attitude in the homeland, drafting them and then 381 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.000 taking them over and dropping them in the middle of 382 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.440 a war zone. So they were bringing their ideas with 383 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.359 them that they had before they ever ever left the 384 00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.480 United States. 385 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:02.880 Now you talk about drug use there being rampant, and 386 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:08.119 especially marijuana, but you know, heroin being a more serious 387 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:11.039 drug and a more serious issue I would imagine, and 388 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.160 access being very very easy there. Tell us about drug 389 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.640 use and were you surprised at the extent of it 390 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:23.079 and in what was your conclusion in terms of they 391 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.119 did develop this habit once they were in Vietnam or 392 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.960 did they bring it along with them from the United States. 393 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:33.720 Well, there there there were three three drugs basically that 394 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:36.359 you saw in Vietnam. One of them was marijuana and 395 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.839 it was everywhere. The second thing was heroin and it 396 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.599 run a real quot second in some cases I would 397 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.680 say that it was probably a good first. The third 398 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.599 thing that we had over there was opium. You didn't 399 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.480 see a lot of it, but there was opium over there, 400 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:57.599 and opium was coming coming a little button. It was 401 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:01.799