Speaker 1: Hey, if you're anything like me, your moods change when
it comes to podcasts listening. I want to have the
right podcast for the right mood, which is the reason
why I created the aerow dot net network. It's an
opportunity for you to explore, to get into areas that
you go I don't know, Okay, I'll give it a shot.
A r r oe dot net, seventeen podcasts to choose from,
and growing. I'm serious when I say enjoy the exploration.
So what is it that that when when you put
a book like this together, how does it come to you?
Because I mean, I mean you, you actually admit that
this one took some time. It didn't just happen one,
two three.
Speaker 2: I never know what I'm getting into it. And let's
just talk about the setup of the book. A man
walks into a funeral home carrying his favorite blue suit.
He's got a terminal disease, and this is the suit
that he wants to be buried in.
Speaker 3: But here's the thing.
Speaker 2: If you go into your local bank and you open
up a safety deposit box, the government can track it.
Then the paperwork is filed, they can find it. Same
thing if you go to the ups store and you
open up a po box. But if you secretly sew
something into the lining of your favorite suit and then
you hand that suit to your local morticium, you have
the ultimate untraceable hiding spot.
Speaker 3: And from there, the man.
Speaker 2: Goes back to his hotel room. There's a guy waiting
with a gun who says, where is it? Guy says,
I don't know what you're talking about. He shoots the
man dead, and of course his suit is still in
the funeral home. You won't believe what's hidden in that
suit or who's about to find it. That's chapter one
of the Viper. That's the opening.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 2: I found it because I was literally in a funeral
home with a buddy who was shown me around and
he had a padlocked door, and when I was like,
what's in the pat what's.
Speaker 3: Behind the padlock?
Speaker 2: And he undoes this big padlock and shows me all
the clothes that people want to be buried in. If
you're not family and you're old, you pick out what
you're going to wear to your own funeral.
Speaker 3: And I thought to myself, that's a great high spot.
Speaker 2: I got the opening for the book right, But that's
not the book that's just the setup. What takes me
so long is figuring out the characters, figuring out where
they're going to go and more important, and this is
the honest truth, is what I'm struggling with at that
moment in time, and that's what took me so long
with this book.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: But see the thing about it is, I mean, you
say to even new readers, and that's people that I'm
always trying to reach with those new people, and that
this is a great time to get to know Zig
and Nola, and it's like, Wow, instead of having you
start way back in the beginning, it's like, start here
and then make your process and your journey of reading.
Speaker 2: And listen, I understand the last book was out four
years ago. Every book has to be stan Lee used
to say about comic books. Every comic book is someone's first.
And that's why I viewed my thrillers right. There's going
to be someone who maybe never read one of my books,
but says, this sounds interesting to me. I want to
learn something. And one of the things that I learned
just about myself is the opening quote in the book.
The first thing you read says, it's this cropey, a
guy named Dale marriage, and it says, I don't believe
in closure. I'm not sure we ever really get over anything.
It was the very very last thing I put in
the book. When the book was done, I found that
quote and I was like, that's the book.
Speaker 3: There it is.
Speaker 2: And what I realized is, I you know, there's a
saying in the book. It's a word that I never
heard before called pentimento, and pentimento is a term in
painting when paint gets so old and brittle, it starts
to become transparent, so you can actually see the pencil
lines on the canvas like the artist original draft, like
the rough draft, and it has you know, mistakes and
regrets and a tree that's facing to the left is
now swaying.
Speaker 3: To the right. People change their minds as they draw
and they create.
Speaker 2: And as I found that out, I was like, wait,
that's what life is, is that all of us have
past versions of ourselves. You know, our early lives are
just rough drafts, filled with mistakes, filled with regrets, filled
with things we wish we could take back, but you
can't make a masterpiece without them. And what I realized
is that closures overrated. What you really have to do
is love yourself for who you are. And that's what
the Viper is a thriller is really about.
Speaker 1: When you feel that thrill on that page before we
get it. I mean, what is the perfectionist inside of
you having to deal because I mean I have to
sit there and I do a defrag journal work. I've
got to become a part of the project by asking
the questions. So how do you deal with that when
the perfectionist just saying, I'm not thinking that it's going
to reach anybody. I'm not. I mean, I mean because
you I can relate with the story with going into
the into the funeral home because I would do that.
That's me. I would do that. But now the question is,
like you said, that's only chapter one. Now what are
you going to do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I start out, I only have the
first fifty pages. I have the first that's all I know,
just the start, and I know what the ending is
because I know what the kind of general plus, but
I have no idea how I'm going to get there.
And to me, that that's the fun. I did a
book years ago, my second book I ever did. I
outlined the entire book in one fell swoop It was
the hardest book, and I actually think my worst written
book because it was just like paint by numbers. I
was just going one to two to three. There was
no and to me the fun of a novel and create.
And I'm not sure if you find this in your journaling,
but is you sometimes get surprised where it takes you
all the time. I you know, one of the things,
I spent a lot of books writing about the death
of my parents. I lost both my parents, so I
wrote a character that was lost their mom. I wrote
a character that lost their dad. It was me struggling
to get over the death of my parents. I was like,
how do I get over it? I'm going to write
about it, and then I realized I'm never going to
get over it. Every person listening right now has someone
who they wish could still be here today, and anyone
who's lost someone close to their soul knows you never
get over it. They deserve to be remembered and all
you ever get to do is transform.
Speaker 3: And I figured that out.
Speaker 2: I was like, I got that, so I'm like, so
what am I doing in the And then I realized
that the thing that I was actually struggling with wasn't
the death of my parents. I buried them a long
time ago. But I never forgave my dad for some
of the stuff that he did. I never forgave him.
And when I was writing this book, I finally realized
at the end that's why that quote about closure was
so important to me, as I found forgiveness for my father,
or at least some forgiveness for him. And man, when
you let go of that, that's a really heavy load
that you don't get to carry around anymore.
Speaker 3: I needed that from this book.
Speaker 1: So when you come across a quote like that, are
you like me and you plant it in a different
journal in the way of because I mean to go
back and try to find it again. Ah, that's a
needle in a haystack. What are the real big chances
you're going to find it again? So do you put
it in special places where you can build upon it?
Speaker 3: One hundred percent?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that real success doesn't come from
you being like I have the most motivation, because you
know what, that only will get you so far. Motivation
eventually runs out, determination runs out. What you have to
do is be more motivated and determined on the days
when you're not motivated them.
Speaker 3: You've still got to do it.
Speaker 2: And the way to make that happen is you got
to make good habits, right, That's what it is. That's
like an honored Swartzenegger lesson, like you just make the habit.
So I made the habit of when I find stuff,
I put it in the exact spot where I can
look for it later. And this is the crazy thing
that I don't even think I realized until a couple
of days ago, is all these great quotes that I
always love, and I'm like, oh, readers will love this,
or someone will love this, or my kids will love this.
I pull quotes for them and my wife they're I'm
kidding myself. Yeah, the only reason why they resonate with
me is because those quotes are for me. All those
things that you love so much to your core, and
you think, like, oh, I love sharing this other people.
Speaker 3: It's not other people. You needed.
Speaker 2: Pay attention to what your body's telling to you. Pay
attention to what your brainy sidety of your brain is
telling you. Pay attention to what the emotional side of
brain is telling you. It's something you need. Your great
loves are always your great needs.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Brad Meltzer. Meet
up next the name of his new book, The Viper
in stores as well as Amazon. This is the one
you're going to be talking about. We are back with
Brad Meltzer. Where did you gain the confidence to invite
your readers to come up with the title, because I
mean that that's like, you know, one of the things
that Julia Cameron always says in the artist way is
don't give it to other people. They are the wet blanket.
And I'm sitting here looking at you, Brad, going my god,
I want to do what Brad does. I want to
make it so interactive with those that are choosing to
even read, and then to do something with them where
they're now part of the process.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I think in my early career I
would have been like nervous and I was if you
look up early interviews, I would be like I was
giving baseball quotes. I was like, I'm just happy to
be here one book at a time, like and then
and then somewhere along the way, I was like, I
don't want to be that guy. Yeah, you know I
used to I used to say to my wife, I
don't like small talk.
Speaker 3: I hate smallter. I like going deep.
Speaker 2: And I didn't even realize the ego that was in
that statement, as if what I'm better at small at
going deep than other people, I'm better than small talk
at other people. What I was actually getting bad at
wasn't small talk. I was bad at listening. I stopped listening.
I stopped like if you weren't a certain level of
funny and humor and clever and whatever else I thought
you had to be, I was like, Oh, that person's
a dad, I don't want to talk to that person.
And then I was like, wait a minute, I'm letting
amazing people slip through my fingers.
Speaker 3: There are people who.
Speaker 2: Just don't say a word, but they're the smartest person
in the room. And I had to get over myself.
And that's just part of midlife, part of growth, part
of figuring out how where you are in the universe,
just realizing you're not that special. And once I did that,
and that also happened during the writing of this book,
I just was like.
Speaker 3: I don't care.
Speaker 2: I want to invite more people aboard, come join me,
like I'll be honest, it's not easy for me every day.
If it was, then to be pretty boring for me
every day too. And I think you have to love
your flaws. You got to love the parts of you
that are bad too as much as you love the
parts of you that are good.
Speaker 1: So are you like Ian Anderson from the group Jethro
Taal where he said I do not write songs arrow,
I am a song smith. So do you play with
words as well?
Speaker 2: I just want to make a I want to make
statements like that. I want to be like rock star,
like we're right. No, you know what I think this is,
This is my to my core.
Speaker 3: I believe this. I'm not that special.
Speaker 2: If I if I love something, then my hope is
that other people are going to love it too. And
so if I love that moment when you walk into
a funeral home, you know, if I love in this
book we deal with and we can talk about if
you want, you know, witness protection and I find it fascinating.
You know, if I love what happens at Dover, you
know base where where America's most secretive funeral home is
and top secret funeral home is like, then hopefully other
people will join me on the journey. If they don't,
I'm still going to go on a fun ride and
and once I was able to like kind of lose
that worry and not completely, but like let it go
a little bit again. You have room in your body
for other and I think that's just as vitally important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you've got the courage here where you really
take on something that really is inspiring to me as
a writer, where it's like, you know that there's a
difference between a book spy and a real book spy,
and you take that to that level where you're saying,
are you getting your book spies right? Because this one
is right?
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate it. You know, I don't know what
the answer is. The one thing I know is that
the honesty is just it.
Speaker 3: It's true.
Speaker 2: I'm listening to what you're asking me. I'm going to
give you my answer.
Speaker 3: Before I think.
Speaker 2: I used to like I'm going to have my talking points,
I'm gonna get and here we go, and that'll be
my interview. And I realized I was doing that in life.
I wasn't participating. I was just detaching and going to
my own you know, writers, they's just say to my wife,
you know, I have a hard time at cocktail parties
or even parties because I never feel like I'm participating.
I'm kind of like in the corner and I'm looking
and I'm detaching. I'm watching and observing. And I thought, well,
I'm a writer, that's my job to observe, so that
must be why I do that.
Speaker 3: And I just accepted it.
Speaker 2: For years and then I was like, what am I doing.
I'm not participating. I'm missing out on incredible people. I
met this woman. I don't know why I'm telling you
the story, but I'll tell you the story. Like, I
met this woman who was just this I've met her
and she was kind of like really quiet, and I
was like, oh, she's not really interesting. And then I
spent we were out at this event and we were
there for hours and hours, and finally by the end
she was kind of like had this energy that came
up and was glowing. I was like, wow, you look
like recharge. You're fully alive. And I found that at
the end that she was a hospice nurse and the
reason she was not glowing or not, you know, energetic,
is she had just lost a patient that was dear
to her. And I let that amazing person in my
quick judgment slip through my fingers, and I was like,
what am I doing here? And I think, for me,
let me, let me tell you even more personal stories,
just because I know you a long time. My father
may rest in peace. This is the I've talked tob
what I'm.
Speaker 3: With you before.
Speaker 2: It was a complicated relationship. And when I was in college,
I went to apply for my last year of classes
and they kicked me out of school. They said, you know,
your bills have not been paid here at University of Michigan,
so you have to be kicked out. And I was like,
what do you mean? And I knew it was my dad.
He hadn't paid my bills. So I went down to
the registrar's office. They turned my dad into loans. They
gave me a one percent loan on the spot, let
me re enroll in school, and I got to graduate.
So now again I settle everything down. I graduate, I
go to my first job, and I switched my home address,
so now my mail is coming forwarded to me. And
quickly I realized I have forty thousand dollars in credit
card bills that I never signed up for. My dad
that's how he was paying for college. You know, when
you're in college, you get all those things to say,
sign up for a new master card, sign up for
a new this. My dad signed up for all of them,
took them all. That's how he was trying to pay
to get me through college. It was a terrible thing
because it's a twenty two percent interest rate on a
credit card rather than a one percent loan. He could
have gone And eventually, so if you keep getting hit
in the back of the head, I said, and they
tell me, listen, if you want to get out of this,
you got to report your dad for fraud. He's going
to go to jail. It's the only way out of it.
I'm like, I'm not reporting my father. I'm rating on
my father. So I calm it all down again, I
make it all go away again. But again, if you
eventually get hit in the back of the head enough,
you start looking over your shoulder. And here's the part
of the story that I was missing and what I
just told you. And I told the story of my
dad's funeral. But my dad, when he was little, used
to get beat up by his father, who was a boxer.
And I know for sure that my father jumped in
front of his younger brother to make sure he would
take the hits for him so he won't get hit.
I know he jumped in front of his own mother,
my grandmother, so she won't get hit. But what I
missed in the story I was telling is my father
and all those dumb things he did, even with me.
He was just trying to take the hits so that
I could be the first in my immediate family to
go to a four year college. But I couldn't see
that because I was so caught up up in my
own anger and my own pain, and so mad at
all the headache he had caused me. I couldn't see
that he was trying to do right by me, even
though it was a terrible plan, it was stupid to do.
He was trying to take that dead at twenty two
percent so that I didn't have to take any debt
at all. He just couldn't make it work. But I
couldn't see that because I was so in pain. And
while I was writing The Viper, That's what I was
struggling with, is trying to find that forgiveness for all
those messes my dad made.
Speaker 1: You're a silent watcher, aren't you a silent wolf? As
I talk about all the time on iHeartRadio. In other words,
you watch, you you sit there and you take it
all in, you do some research, and then you figure
out how you're going to activate it.
Speaker 3: It's funny. I wish it was that easy. I have
to I silently.
Speaker 2: I do silently watch, but I have to write it
or talk it out like That's it expresses in a
way like in my writing. When I get to the
end of the book, I'm like, Okay, what am I
struggling with?
Speaker 3: Here?
Speaker 2: What have I been dealing with this past year? And
then I'm like, oh, here, now I see it. I'm
not smart enough to know it from page one. Here
is what I will make this book about. And it
Shelby about this. It's I realized my writing over time
is just me figuring out what I'm dealing with. And
then I look at it and I'm like, oh, there's
the free therapy I needed.
Speaker 1: We got to talk about that book cover because I'm
a freak like that, and I know how I am
when it comes to my own book covers. And when
did it come to you? Was it during because you
talked about the end coming very early and you were
able to figure out what the end was going to be,
and then you had to build the storyline. Well, what
about that book cover, because it's very attractive and it
gets your attention very quickly when you walk in to
see it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. My buddy, my very first book
I ever wrote the title of the book. We had
two titles. It was the Tenth Justice and Addison's Judgment.
And I loved Addison's Judgment and the publisher like Tenth Justice.
And I went to my buddy, who worked in advertisement.
I was like, right out of college, I didn't know
anything about book covers. And I said, what's the better cover,
what what's the better title? And he said, no one knows.
I said, what do you mean. He says, go ask
one hundred people.
Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean asking how he goes?
Speaker 2: Go to a go to your local mall. He says,
don't go in New York City. Everyone there's two opinion.
I go to a go to Jersey. He's like, go
ask one hundred people in the mall which one they prefer.
So my wife I was to embarrass. My wife went
to the local food court in the mall. She said,
I asked one hundred people and she said, seventy four percent,
prefer the tenth justice. I said, yeah, but that's the
food court. We don't know if read books, you got
to go to like the B Dalton, you got to
go to. So God bless my wife. She then goes
to like the B Dalton in the mall and ask
another one hundred people, and instead of seventy four percent,
it's seventy three percent. It's the exact same number. And
so if you that book cover, if you follow me
on Instagram or Facebook or anywhere else I had. We
had two covers and I literally asked my readers. I said,
tell me which one you prefer, and that orange cover
that you see was the winner. That was the one
that won. And I was like, great, that's what we're
going with. So I will pick every last word that's
in that book. I will fight for every last word
when it comes to the covers and the titles. As
my friend taught me all those years ago, just ask people.
They'll tell you they're smarter than you are.
Speaker 1: Wow. God, twenty minutes with you is never enough. Dude.
Ah my god, I'm so jealous of the people that
you're gonna be sharing conversations with because they're going to
get parts of you I didn't get today, So you're
gonna have to come back to this show, you know.
Speaker 2: Listen, I don't miss you man every time. You know,
I'll be back you. You've supported me for the kids books,
for the thrillers, for the nonfiction, for whatever genre we do,
and I hope you know what that means. You know,
it's one thing to have, you know, strangers come on
board and say, Hey, the Vipers, that's book. Sounds great.
I love to grow with the dragon tattoo. I'm going
to love this book. But it's one thing to have
someone who's always been cheering for you, and I hope
you know I cheer right back for you as well.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, and I do and I
don't want anybody to get mad at me here, but
I do have to ask a question, when are you
going to jump to a graphic novel or is that
even in the planning because you already draw the pictures
in my mind? Is that enough for your imagination?
Speaker 2: Well, it's your lucky day because coming in I think
it's a summer is our first graphic novel?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes. So we have a company called Ghost Machine that.
Does you know? I've written Superman.
Speaker 2: And Batman and Spider Man. But we have a company
called Ghost Machine. My friend Jeff Johns and I are
co writing it together. A guy named Jean Has Genius
artist has drawing it. And there's a true story that
there are people who believe that ever since Abraham Lincoln's
son died in the White House, that the White House
is haunted as ghosts. So we are doing a graphic
novel called First Ghost about the ghosts that haunt the
White House and it'll be come out later this year.
Speaker 3: Wow. So yeah, just follow me on Instagram or whatever.
You'll see. You'll see all the stuff.
Speaker 2: I'll do it Man the Vipers now, but the First
Ghost is coming.
Speaker 1: I love it. Well, please have yourself a brilliant day
today and make your way back to this stage.
Speaker 3: Thank you, brother,