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Speaker 1: It is so insane. Bunker buncer Oo unco loncer.

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Speaker 2: I got married. I got married to funco Fo. We

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got wedded, conjoined in the subway.

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Speaker 3: Shop o w.

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Speaker 4: I am married.

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Speaker 2: I'm married to ale, But.

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Speaker 5: Do we get joined? Go white?

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Speaker 2: As soon as somewhere.

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Speaker 6: Spitamins and biscuits and minerals they come to eve to

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my whole life is spent to h.

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Speaker 7: M hmm, what.

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Speaker 5: Of I'm married to a longo.

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Speaker 2: But we got wedding, We got joined in the subway,

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shut over the road.

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Speaker 5: And minerals they come to to visiments and minerals. Then

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come from me this year to.

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Speaker 8: Fuck for.

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Speaker 7: Fuck.

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Speaker 2: I got married. I got married to my funk go

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b who we got waded, We got joined in the subway.

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Speaker 9: He sha.

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Speaker 6: S sight What should I do with one of the

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first sight? Put it in my head, throw a knock

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the ground?

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Speaker 4: Who knows?

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Speaker 10: Just what would I do? A?

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Speaker 7: Ready?

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Speaker 3: Are you joined in the ways?

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Speaker 11: Love the human guinea pig stuff in Africa, it's so

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in See the human guinea pig stuff in Africa, it's so.

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Speaker 12: In seem, so instant, so insan, it's so insane.

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Speaker 4: Gee, you find up in that tree what you're doing

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up there?

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Speaker 5: Why you scared?

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Speaker 7: Why you run it from them red bad? You ran

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mom man trew and from.

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Speaker 9: Me man till the monkey like their email monkeys.

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Speaker 13: With double nantas between the trees hanging.

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Speaker 4: Down upside down.

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Speaker 3: That's a smile.

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Speaker 7: Side telling monkey, what.

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Speaker 3: You doing to me?

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Speaker 14: Till until a monkey, till the.

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Speaker 7: Macky, then till the MODI.

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Speaker 6: What's it do it to me till the tiller?

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Speaker 7: Mom mody.

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Speaker 1: Doll mo.

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Speaker 3: Fucking filling. I'm thinking about Tom Koon, Tom Coon, Tom.

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Speaker 8: Tom Coo, Tom Coon, seeing you all that screen, Tom Coon.

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Speaker 6: What you do to me?

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Speaker 5: Risky babe business.

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Speaker 6: This is a risky business talking about you, Tom Kon,

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But the risk is the key to the business.

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Speaker 5: Tom Coom.

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Speaker 6: This We've got a lot of inside jokes on this channel.

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Don't hold it against me. I don't really have a

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thing for Tom com It's just jokes, son. People don't

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understand the inside jokes.

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Speaker 5: I'm mute, dude.

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Speaker 6: From now on, I'm gonna start every show with me

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muted and then me making a mistake on purpose so

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that you can call me out in the chat.

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Speaker 5: Oh you dude, You know you People.

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Speaker 6: Aren't live streamers for a life style for a for

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a job. You don't understand what I go through. You

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don't understand what it's like. You don't understand how hard

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it is my life. Yeah, I'm trying to have a

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breakdown on screen, to create drama, to create a buzz.

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Speaker 13: Streamer has Doer has meltdoubt on streamline.

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Speaker 5: His career is over.

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Speaker 13: Yes, soy boys celebrating all over the web. Soy boys

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are creating meme coins to celebrate dires melt, epic melt.

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Speaker 5: You don't know what it's like. Time come to.

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Speaker 6: Risky Beariness. Actually, I hit that pretty good. I hit

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the notes pretty good right there. Welcome everybody. Jay's meme

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coin was a rug pull shocker.

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Speaker 5: We knew it.

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Speaker 6: We knew it all along. He's worse than hawk to Ah.

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If I was an Indian, that would be my name.

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You named Huktua Risky Beess. Welcome everybody. We're gonna have

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open for him. I didn't realize where is this Billy

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Carson debate. I'm having a hard time finding it. Everybody's

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talking about it, and uh, but I can't find it.

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Where's the actual debate?

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Speaker 5: Now? The funny part is this is great. This guy.

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Speaker 6: I don't know who Wes Huff is. I've never heard

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of this guy until today, but he beat Billy Corson

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so bad, which we've been making fun of Billy Corson

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for a while.

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Speaker 5: Because this dude is why do Wow do why? And

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obviously it come on. This guy's a character. But this

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dude beat him so bad that apparently.

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Speaker 6: Billy Corson, who is a descendant of the gods, is

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suing this bro right here, This Protestant pastor man, let's

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see what he says.

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Speaker 4: Is attempting to sue me.

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Speaker 15: For those of you who don't know, I was invited

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to interact with Billy on a podcast that he grew

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to come on, was not his podcast, where he was

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notified beforehand who I was and what we'd be talking about.

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After that debate took place, Billy attempted to suppress the

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footage that didn't really work. I've released clips from that conversation,

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while Billy does not want you to see those clips

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and has sent me a season to sist letter. I

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was really hoping that this could be an opportunity for

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Billy to learn to see the major errors that he's

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been repeating and turn this into a learning experience. I

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even offered to follow up with Billy in order to

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show him how and where he could find accurate and

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credible resources in order to make sure what he was

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saying was verifiably correct going forward in the future, so

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he and his audience could learn and proceed knowledgeably. Billy

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did not agree. But unfortunately for Billy, agreeing to a debate,

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losing that debate and feeling embarrassed about that loss does

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not constitute legitimate grounds to litigate Billy.

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Speaker 6: Now, this is just funny because this is what happens

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to extremely arrogant, deluded people, is that they're so confident

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in their overconfidence and not in their actual skill set

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or knowledge that when they get humiliated, they experience a

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kind of a break, kind of a meltdown. And everybody

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on the Internet knows that a sus shady Internet type

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of person is the very person who immediately goes to

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trying to have a lawsuit when they lose a bait.

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Thank you, hot espressos ready to order, Thank you babe.

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And it turns out, yes, as Piggydoo says in the chat,

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Wes has demonstrated with absolute logical certitude that Billy is

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in fact not a king. In fact, in Billy's case,

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it is accurate to say we actually was kings past tense,

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but no more, we is not kings. And sometimes it

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do be like that. But I gotta see the actual debate.

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So they're saying it's on some other podcast, but I

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don't want to watch some other goofball like this guy

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reacting to the debate. So maybe he's got a list,

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if he's got a link to the debate. I guess

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I should have found this beforehand. I assumed it would

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just be on YouTube.

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Speaker 5: So let's see.

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Speaker 6: Here we go, full debate right here, unavailable? What the

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heck did this goober? Did the person who hosted debate

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actually pull it down?

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Speaker 5: Oh my gosh because of this goofball's lawsuit threats. This

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is so stupid.

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Speaker 6: So I guess we got to watch this guy's reaction

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to the thing. The pharisees, like, does anybody have an

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hour actual clip? Like maybe somebody in the chat.

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Speaker 5: Tell me what maybe we should just do.

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Speaker 6: Let's just do Ruseland's highlight because that's probably that's probably

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the yeah, the highlight of it.

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Speaker 14: Hilly Carson does not want you to say now we're.

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Speaker 6: Gonna talk about this debate, and we're gonna talk about,

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of course, the Ubi Petris Eric Obara, much anticipated, long

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awaited debate years in the making, years in the mix.

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We're gonna have some criticisms, We're gonna have some appreciations,

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We're gonna look at weaknesses strong points in terms of

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the highlights of.

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Speaker 5: That as well.

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Speaker 6: I don't that one was really long and it was

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very hyper precise, so I don't think we'll have time

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to get to like all of it, So we're gonna

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hit the highlights of that. We'll probably do the opening

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statements and then the clips that I clipped and that

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Luigi clipped from the Obara UBI debate, and then we'll

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open it up to people who want to ask questions

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or who would like to actually debate. And that's for

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anybody out there. If you want to challenge me, if

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you want to set uh, make your case, make your argument,

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if you gotta, If you got a billy course an

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argument you want to make, go for it. Do you

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think he was a kyang you got proof, bring it.

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If you wanna bring your Roman Catholic arguments where you

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think UBI lost, if that is in fact what you

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really think. It will be open for him. In fact,

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if you're a Muslim, if you are atheist, we will

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have those uh open up later. I don't know why

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this is automatic because I did two gaming streams. This

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has automatically situated.

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Speaker 5: Me in the field of gaming. And this is not gaming.

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Speaker 6: We're gonna call this comedy. Today's show is going to

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be a mix of debate and comedy. Baby welcome everybody

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if you would it like and share. So let's get

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to the highlight of the Billy Carson wes Huff debate

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and uh man, what how much blow drawing does wes

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Huff do to get.

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Speaker 5: His hair to do?

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Speaker 6: That is west Huff is going to singularly bring back

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moose and gel. There's no way a white dude's hair

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can do that without blow drying and using moose and

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using gel together.

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Speaker 5: That that's.

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Speaker 6: Like, I don't know, something's going on. Something's going on.

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And we got three interesting hairstyles from this these We

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got the Ruse line kind of millennial uh you know,

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garden patch up top. We got the Billy Courson with

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the classic eighties black dude with the black dude mustache

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goate going. And we got wes Hoff's nineties moose Jel

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thing going on all at once. So we've got three

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interesting hair Dude, I gotta get a haircut because I

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want to keep mine, you know, with my van dam

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aesthetic vibe going. And so it's growing out, and so

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I'm getting back into Vanilla Ice preacher haircut, which I

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don't like anymore. I'm not a Vanilla Ice preacher. Although

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I will preach the virtues of Vanilla Ice, I'm not

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a Vanilla Ice preacher, if you understand.

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Speaker 5: Jamie says she likes it.

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Speaker 6: Well, I feel like a fake TV preacher with a

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stupid haircut because they always have that big you know,

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pomp adore. It's like Elvis and TV scam preachers of

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the people with this haircut. I gotta grow out that

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fake Leon hair where it hangs down like nineteen like

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like two thousand and three, Keith Urban, where it's.

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Speaker 5: Like hanging down in my face.

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Speaker 7: Leon.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So somebody found the full video. I think we're

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gonna go with the highlights though, because I mean, I

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don't know how long this video is. But let's check

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out the highlights from Ruslan.

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Speaker 16: Here he this debate Billy Carson is trying to bury

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this debate, and he's running in some roadblocks and his

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legal action being threatened and taken.

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Speaker 14: And this is where we're at. So go ahead, play this.

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Speaker 10: According to the Sinai Bible, Jesus wasn't crucified in that Bible.

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Speaker 15: Do you might have to ask a clarifying question when

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you say this is this is?

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Speaker 14: So these are the types of claims he makes according

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to the Seinni Bible.

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Speaker 6: Now, to be clear, we've been busting on Billy Carson,

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or should I say Billy Corson for a long time, so, uh,

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this is nothing new to our sphere. And I will

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remind you that when as soon as we saw this

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dude a year ago, months ago, whenever it was, uh,

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we was cracking up. So here's another channel up there

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that's got the debate if you want to watch the

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full debate. But I just have to remind everybody that,

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I mean, we've been laughing about this nonsense. Let's see,

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let me go back to here.

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Speaker 5: No, that's Diddy.

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Speaker 6: I'm getting Diddy and Billy Corson mixed up right here. Okay,

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And we made well, there was another video even before

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this one. In fact, I thought Billy Carson was so

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funny that I actually brought this was a second video.

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This is not the original Billy corson right.

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Speaker 8: With his.

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Speaker 5: Right here.

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Speaker 6: People, So you never debate with Jewish guys, Well, this

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episode right here has the.

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Speaker 5: Debate with a Jewish guy. What are you talking about?

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Jewish guys never.

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Speaker 6: Typically come to debate anyway, So go watch this old

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one right here where we was laughing about this stuff

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months ago. Anyway, let's get back to Ruslan, because I mean,

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it's just really, what's the word I'm looking for? Like,

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you have to be totally not self aware to think

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in our internet day that you're not gonna look like

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a complete goof us if you try to sue somebody

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right after your debate that you lost. The whole internet

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knows and can see what you're, what you're up to,

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and what happened. It's obvious to everyone. So it's amazing

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to me that he would even do this move.

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Speaker 5: It's so silly.

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Speaker 6: It's like, didn't Brendan should. I don't have anything personally

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against I've never I don't know Brendan Schaalb, never talked

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to him. I will say that I appreciate Sam Tripoli

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shouting me out on his podcast. But I think it's

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pretty obvious that Brendan Schauld made this mistake move when

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he got made fun of or I don't remember what

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was happening, they said he wasn't funny or whatever, and

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then he was like threatening to sue people.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this is just like.

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Speaker 6: Basic bitch mistake move one oh one. So it's just

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really odd to me that. But I think if you're

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if you're a totally delusional sort of I don't know

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if Billy Corson really believes what he talks about or

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if he's.

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Speaker 5: Just saying made up stuff. I mean, I don't know

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what his motives are.

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Speaker 6: But if you are totally controlled by your delusional pride

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and you've created your own cult, I think you're just

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kind of a slave to the passions and you just

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can't even like control yourself. I guess that's what's happening,

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because this is just such.

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Speaker 5: A stupid move.

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Speaker 14: This was in crucified. Of course, he just wasn't crucified.

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Then he wasn't. He couldn't have been resurrected.

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Speaker 16: These are the such The issue with these games is

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there easily easily debunkable.

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Speaker 10: According to the Sinai Bible, Jesus wasn't crucified in that Bible.

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Speaker 15: Do you want to ask a clarifying question when you

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say the Sinai Bible, I'm what are you referring to?

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Specifically refer to the Sinai Bible. Would you be referring

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to Codex sinatics?

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Speaker 5: This is my first thought, is what the heck is

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he talking about?

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Speaker 6: A lot of times, believe it or not, these kind

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of wacky goofball guys can throw you for a loop

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in a debate. And we've had so many debates over

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here with open forums that I can I can literally

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be thrown for a loop with with some kind of

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wacky goofball guy because it's so out of left field

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and I have no idea what he's talking about. Hey, bro,

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that Sinai Bible said that that wouldn't know Jesus though,

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what are you talking about? Codex sinoticus, codex vaticant?

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Speaker 5: What are you even talking about?

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Speaker 15: The Sinai Bible?

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Speaker 6: All right, well, I remember one time, a few years ago,

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there was a there was a Celtic Egyptian study Bible.

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Somebody just made up. I mean, there was a real

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study Bible that you could buy. But it was just

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obviously like just a bunch of made up nonsense. Right,

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you can buy like the feminist Skittles gender neutral Bible, Right,

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So I like that doesn't really mean anything that you

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talk about the you know, the the Sinai Bible.

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Speaker 5: I could go get.

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Speaker 6: I'll bust out my Celtic Egyptian Study Bible. By the way,

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let's see if that still exists, because I'm gonna have

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to I'm gonna start. I'm gonna get me one to

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start quoting it Celtic or it's the Egyptian Celtic Study Bible.

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Speaker 5: I'm not joking. This was a real thing. And if

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I recall, it was going.

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Speaker 6: Around the idiot conspiracy sphere many maybe ten years ago.

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Speaker 5: What do you know here it is you can still get.

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Speaker 6: Here's the people that made it up. Okay, I'll trust

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these people for sure. Yikes, she looks like him with

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a wig. I think that's just a that's just a

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photoshop of the copy paste of the same person. The

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Colburn Bible is a combination of Egyptian Celtic writings that

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compare to the Christian Bible with it, so it's like

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a idiotic, you know, like scam thing. Obviously, all right,

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let's get back to Billy Corson.

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Speaker 15: Yes, like the codex that comes Okay, That's why I

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was trying to get some clarifications because I actually have

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I have a facsimile, so I have a photocopy of

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Codex Sanaticus that I work with in my office.

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Speaker 14: Okay, first of all, slight flex.

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Speaker 17: I mean, the whole thing is a flex. He's like,

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what specifically are you referring to or you're referring to

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connecticuts Sinacus.

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Speaker 16: Snack Codexanaticus, and then he pulls out and he pulls

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it out. He pulls out a photocopy version of the

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entire thing.

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Speaker 15: That's great, sure, And the only reason I asked for

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clarification is because Sanaticus in particular is just a fourth

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century Greek manuscript. It's text of the Gospels reads almost

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identical to the modern Greek text that we develop translations from.

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Speaker 16: When you say that and a lot of translations are

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cre from this quoteccentaticates early is kind of cool.

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Speaker 6: I mean, this shouldn't even really be up for debate.

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This is like such a basic mistake move that, I mean,

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this guy really embarrassed himself at this point. So, I mean,

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I understand we have to do debates with these kind

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of goofballs because they trick a lot of people. And

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if I recall, Billy Carson is mainly popular on TikTok,

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I think, I mean, he might be popular on Instagram

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too or something like that. But I mean, and guys,

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we have experienced the eighth circle of Hell, that is TikTok,

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Dante's inferno, that is TikTok. You guys have seen those

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live streams where we go in and invade TikTok and

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we debate.

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Speaker 5: The TikTokers is rough.

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Speaker 6: It's rough, So it doesn't surprise me at all that

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that's where Billy Carson is the most popular. But I mean,

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this is already like it's already looking a rough.

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Speaker 16: Compilation of the Greek manuscripts, right, because all these were

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different letters and scroll So it's.

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Speaker 17: Just it's just the compilation of the earliest Greek manuscripts

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put in kind of a book form, I believe, gotcha.

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Speaker 16: Yeah, And so because before they were just letters and scroll.

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So someone finally compiled the copies of the copies of

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the copies of the copies right, because there's multiple manuscripts

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going out being sent out, and then I finally copy

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you do sexual Christis by going back.

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Speaker 5: There's those one thing.

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Speaker 16: There's not much difference, and they compiled it all into

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the Codex Sinaticus.

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Speaker 15: Gotcha, okay, denies the crucifixion. Of that the crucifixion isn't there.

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I mean, I can go on right now Codex Sinaticus,

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and I can look up Matthew twenty seven where it

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has Jesus being crucified, and that's in Codex Sinaticus, or

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John nineteen or any of the other ones. So my

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confusion is that it doesn't read any differently.

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Speaker 14: First of all, West is so patient and so loving.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, He's like, can I have a clarifying question.

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Speaker 14: I'm so confused by what you're saying. I can't be

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this guy.

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Speaker 16: This is why I tend not to like debates unless

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they're in person, because I can't be this charitable over

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the end.

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Speaker 6: Well, Rouslan has invited me in studios, so we'll find

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out if he's that charitable in person. I believe that

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he probably will be, but I think they're also going

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to realize that I'm not actually mean in person or online.

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Speaker 5: It's jokes.

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Speaker 6: Son, I'm a clown, but I'm a serious clown.

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Speaker 14: This is a this is a skill that.

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Speaker 16: Gavin Ortlund has, I say, Trent Horn has, Wes has

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I'm a crash.

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Speaker 6: So in Rousselan's mind, the only way to be a

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00:27:46,839 --> 00:27:51,480
good debater is to never use rhetoric, Never make jokes,

398
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never make anyone mad, Always talk with an NPR voice.

399
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Speaker 5: Look, there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine.

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Speaker 6: But at the same time, there was a time and

401
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:05,559
a place for the jokes, the jabs, the rhetoric, getting

402
00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:09,880
heat of getting aggressive. For example, in the Ubi Ebarra debate,

403
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,519
that was very calm and peaceful, and I felt like

404
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for the first half, for what I've seen, Ubi was

405
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,079
a little less aggressive than I would have been, especially

406
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with the bar and then towards the end the second

407
00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:25,440
half he got more and more aggressive and eventually just

408
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,079
sort of called out some of the bull crap from

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a barrow, which when I had my debate with a

410
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bar that's of course what Ubi referenced.

411
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Speaker 5: In his debate.

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Speaker 6: Because a lot of people don't know like the backstories

413
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,920
and the going back and forth and on and on

414
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on with people, and one thing that I think a

415
00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:43,640
lot of people are starting to pick up on.

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Speaker 5: I think this happened a lot with Lofton.

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Speaker 6: You know, when we were originally interacting with Lofton back

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in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, everybody kind of just assumed that, well,

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I just hopped on there and was mean to Eric

420
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Obaris with that, and then I just was mean to

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00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:02,680
loft But then people start realizing that no, actually what

422
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:05,960
they were doing was doing these sort of underhanded trying

423
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,839
to get me deplatformed from other channels and other discussions,

424
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:15,160
trying to get you know, other orthodox clergy defract doing.

425
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,519
They're doing all this nasty stuff in the background, which

426
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was not at all the public you know, gentle face

427
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720
that they were presenting to the audience. So I think

428
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people have to realize that a lot of what you

429
00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:31,160
see people presenting themselves as on the Internet is a persona.

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Speaker 5: It's it's fake.

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Speaker 6: And especially I'm not knocking Rouselan, but in this domain

432
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,319
of evangelicalism, this syrup evangelical stuff like this is what

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00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,720
they thrive on. They thrive on that performative appearance of

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00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:49,079
piety and that performative appearance of brother.

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Speaker 5: I just love you so much that I want to.

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Speaker 10: Act.

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Speaker 6: I want to do a Shakespearean theater performance of how

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much I love you and how humble I am. Look

439
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,400
into my eyes, Internet, don't you see how much I

440
00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:09,599
love you? If I weep on camera for you, will

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you believe that I'm truly a humble.

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Speaker 4: Servant of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 5: Look into my eyes, friends, I am praying for you right.

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Speaker 6: Now, right, I mean, this is the kind of just

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fakery that ironically even atheistsy through this stuff.

446
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Speaker 5: Right, It's like, atheist, what I want you all to

447
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,880
tithe to me because I love you and I pray

448
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for you.

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Speaker 3: Right.

450
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Speaker 6: Paul Washer is like the essence of this nonsense, and

451
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all of these evangelicals fall for this Paul Washer bull crap.

452
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Speaker 5: Look, that's not me, man.

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Speaker 6: I've seen that stuff for so many years being growing

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up evangelical. When I see that stuff, it makes me

455
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want to make fun of you.

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Speaker 5: That's what I see.

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Speaker 6: Because after a while, as you grow up, as you

458
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640
get older, especially if you're a man, this stuff comes

459
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:07,359
off as super fake, effeminate skittles. It's just annoying and

460
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,559
it's not authentic. It doesn't come it comes off as performative.

461
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,960
But I think a lot of young people naive people.

462
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,680
This fool's naive people. So no, I mean, I just

463
00:31:16,759 --> 00:31:20,160
don't this whole sphere of these people that like have

464
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,039
their circles and their clicks, that you know, Lofton really

465
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:26,839
wanted to be in those circles and whatnot. It's just

466
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,759
a lot of it's not authentic and a lot of

467
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,799
y'all fall for it because you think that the public

468
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,640
face that people have is really them and it's not.

469
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Speaker 5: And that's why in the situation.

470
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Speaker 6: With a Barra and Lofton, I came on that stream

471
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because Lebarro was basically bull crapping, like he was just

472
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:47,559
making up nonsense.

473
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 5: Jay won't debate me, I'll bust you many thumps to debate.

474
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 6: And I was watching that live stream live and I'm like, Eric,

475
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:56,640
I've sent you I don't know how many messages on

476
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,240
Facebook asking you to debate on other platforms. And what

477
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,720
Eric meant was I won't debate him on Lofton's platform. Well,

478
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,400
I don't consider that neutral because we could have debated

479
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,200
on a Protestant platform or anybody else's channel. But Eric

480
00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:16,039
meant that I had to debate on Lofton's channel, and

481
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:18,680
that was back when he had his show with Lofton

482
00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:22,759
or whatever. It's just like, what you guys don't see

483
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,480
is the background stuff of so many of the people

484
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:30,200
in this domain, this religious YouTube online sphere, Like they're

485
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,920
so effeminate and they act like just it's like the

486
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,480
most passive, aggressive, soyman stuff. And I've ranted about this

487
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:38,200
so long. I'm not gonna rant about it again. But

488
00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:41,119
just don't believe all that. Look what you get with

489
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,640
me is what you see. I am mean whatever that means, meaning.

490
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,720
I like to make jokes, and I'll make a fat

491
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:49,480
joke about a borrow and I don't feel bad about it.

492
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,039
But then they use this as say, oh, look at

493
00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:54,559
his Oh he's not pious or charitable.

494
00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 5: Well, what is charity equated to being nice? I don't understand.

495
00:32:59,559 --> 00:32:59,599
Speaker 7: No.

496
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 6: And by the way, I just listed myself as a

497
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,079
community anyway. I don't claim to be a feeloge. I'm

498
00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:10,119
a philogient like Doc Turkalvin Ortland. I mean, doesn't everybody

499
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,279
kind of sense A lot of these people seem kind

500
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:12,960
of skittles?

501
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 8: Man?

502
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 6: Don't you think a lot of these people may not

503
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:16,440
be straight?

504
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 14: If you say some crazy crash over the internet, in person,

505
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,079
it's different. Yeah, over the internet, you're gonna be like Billy.

506
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 6: It doesn't say that's not actually the case, though, because

507
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,079
I've done several in person debates. When I debated David Gordon,

508
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,160
who by the way, is bigger than me and probably

509
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,079
would whip my ass, I mean I didn't hold back

510
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,599
on him or the Boomer Baptist pastor in that three

511
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,920
way debate. Y'all remember that debate, right, I didn't hold

512
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,160
back on any of them, and I was just as heated,

513
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,960
just as normal in person as over the internet.

514
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 10: Where I was referencing, actually I was misquote. I misquoted

515
00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:54,960
there it's the Gospel of Barnabas.

516
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,279
Speaker 14: So you'd you completely change the claim it.

517
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:05,359
Speaker 6: So now what he's referring to some sudipigrapha, some Gnostic text.

518
00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:10,239
I mean, I think Billy was trying to save face

519
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,639
there it was.

520
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 14: The Gospel of Barnabas. So he just completely changed the claim.

521
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 18: And what.

522
00:34:18,039 --> 00:34:21,079
Speaker 10: That doesn't exist in the Sinai Bible, the Sinai Bible,

523
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,800
the Sinai Bible. But then you go to the Sinai Bible,

524
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,239
the sin So.

525
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 6: Here's twenty quotes of the Sinai Bible. This guy, literally,

526
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:34,039
I mean, how imagine how many people fell for this

527
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,079
nonsense now TikTok. I do believe the numbers are greatly

528
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,920
inflated on TikTok. I don't believe that everybody has five

529
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,440
million likes on their nonsense posts. But there's still a

530
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:48,519
lot of idiots on TikTok. And again it's the lowest

531
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,199
quality and tier of the commenters and debaters. So I'm

532
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,239
not surprised that Billy Corson had a zillion TikTok followers.

533
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,599
But notice how many people do you think he duped

534
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,840
with his preposterous Sinai Bible claim?

535
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,519
Speaker 5: What the Sinai Bible? What are you talking about? He

536
00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:11,960
didn't even know what he was talking about.

537
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,519
Speaker 6: He probably just read this, or he probably saw this

538
00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:16,880
is some kind of Zeitgeist level stuff. He probably saw

539
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,239
Zeitgeist and thought, I can craft this into a new

540
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,280
story of whatever his you know, we was King's theology

541
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,039
was Bible.

542
00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 10: According to the Sinai Bible, Jesus wasn't crucified in that Bible.

543
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 14: She was miss or misqu This is a claim he's

544
00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:34,280
made everywhere.

545
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 10: I misquoted there, it's the Gospel of Barnabas. Jesus wasn't

546
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,360
crucified in that Bible.

547
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 15: I've actually worked with. There are two manuscripts at the

548
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,599
Gospel of Barnabas.

549
00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 17: Okay, so what I actually reincarnated? But my past life

550
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:46,840
wrote the Gospel of Bars And.

551
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 16: I hate to say it, but if you're not closing

552
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000
more clients on the phone or zoom for your online

553
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:55,760
programs or services, the problem isn't actually so.

554
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,119
Speaker 14: So one he knows this outlandish claim of the sin Bible.

555
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,440
That's not in the Sinai Bible.

556
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 16: Right, It's not in there. That's been so then he

557
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,599
goes to the Gospel of Barnabash. Now that sounds oh,

558
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,840
Barnabas well, Barnabas was an accent. He moved around with

559
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:15,280
Paul and.

560
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,079
Speaker 14: Yeah, that sounds legitimate. That sounds legitimate.

561
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 16: Well pull it back and look and look at Billy

562
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:25,159
uh completely to the horror of this entire situation.

563
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 9: What what what? What? What?

564
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 10: He really got?

565
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 14: Cut?

566
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 10: Bro it wass there, it's the Gospel of Barnabash.

567
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:34,599
Speaker 16: First of all, prostability for at least misquote, for acknowledging

568
00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,519
that he misquoted, prohaps stamped in that Bible.

569
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,639
Speaker 15: I've actually worked with. There are two manuscripts at the

570
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:41,679
Gospel of Barnabas which we only have two copies of.

571
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,199
One is in Italian and one.

572
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:49,199
Speaker 6: Now I understand the performative optics of this touting of

573
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,920
how patient and peaceful and loving supposedly people are being

574
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,519
in these debates like this, But I mean, anybody with

575
00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:01,199
any discernment could have already seen and should have already

576
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,000
known as we mentioned months and maybe even a year

577
00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:07,159
ago about Billy Carson. This is like conman level stuff.

578
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,920
So I mean, this idea that, oh, well, we got

579
00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:13,119
to just be nice to everybody, including all the conman,

580
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:13,840
like you.

581
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,079
Speaker 5: Don't have to worry. Where's the rules?

582
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:17,639
Speaker 6: You're supposed to be nice to a con man who's

583
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,119
literally blaspheming every day.

584
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just crazy, this these ridiculous.

585
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,119
Speaker 6: Standards, and I don't know, it's just it's like the

586
00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:28,440
UBI debate, though I think that the debate, as we'll

587
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,079
talk about her in a moment, the UBI debate was

588
00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:34,159
so hyper precise that ninety percent of the debate went

589
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,679
over the heads of ninety percent of the audience, So

590
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,840
that's the that's the difficulty there. So in that situation,

591
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:41,639
when you got a bunch of you know, nine percent

592
00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:43,840
of the people have no idea what's being debated, they're

593
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,719
going to judge the debate on the basis of the

594
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,079
body language, and so you know, you have, for example,

595
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:53,880
Ubi's as far as I'm aware of, first video television appearance,

596
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:55,719
so he was probably a little bit nervous for being

597
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,480
on camera for the first time ever. Perhaps, and maybe

598
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,239
that woul affec to his body language, but it has

599
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,519
nothing to do with the content of what he was arguing.

600
00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 5: So yeah, I just I don't know.

601
00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 6: Debates are a funny thing, and the more hyper precise

602
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,119
they are, the more difficult it.

603
00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 5: Is, I think, to convey to the audience who isn't

604
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:16,880
isn't winning.

605
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,599
Speaker 6: But in this situation, it's different because probably Billy Carson

606
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,559
has never actually interacted with an actual scholar, and I

607
00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:27,960
don't know much about Wes Huff, but he appears to

608
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:33,920
be a textual scholar, I'm guessing. So yeah, I mean, like,

609
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,440
how did you think this debate was gonna go? This

610
00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:37,639
is this is pretty amusing.

611
00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:38,679
Speaker 15: Really, this is Spanish.

612
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 14: First first problem, what's the first problem. Those weren't there

613
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:44,280
in Italian.

614
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 16: In Spanish fans are very the original Italian Spanish fan.

615
00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:52,039
Speaker 5: That's crazy.

616
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 6: I mean, this is the level of stupid where we're at,

617
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:08,679
where like it's very far removed from quoint A, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin,

618
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:13,679
and he's talking about Spanish and Italian. I mean, Billy

619
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,519
Carson has doesn't have a basic knowledge of basic history,

620
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,639
but he's able to doop a lot of people with

621
00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:25,840
these weird conspiracy claims. And this is one of the

622
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,679
problems of the whole conspiracy community. There's so much idiocy

623
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,199
in this domain that it's really sad. I mean, I

624
00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,239
cover these topics a lot, but I've been in the

625
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,519
world of conspiracy and alt media for a long time

626
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,840
and I can assure you that it's full of idiots,

627
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:44,199
it's full of disinformation, it's full of con men and

628
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,679
just ridiculous Billy Carson type nonsense. And by the way,

629
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:49,159
Billy Carson is reminded, he's like a black version of

630
00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:53,079
Acaria S. Remember Acaria S. She was saying Billy corson

631
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:57,280
type stuff fifteen years ago, and she was on YouTube

632
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,519
and she was you know, there would be she was

633
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:02,480
like zeitgeists levels. In fact, I think Zeitgeist might even

634
00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:07,119
cite Akaria s right. So what's funny is that the

635
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:12,920
stuff that he's repeating isn't new. It's just tweaked to

636
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:16,760
his personal I don't know we was Caying's model or

637
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,000
whatever his position is, but it's just repeated, like Zeitgei

638
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:21,880
Sakaria stuff from fifteen years ago.

639
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:23,679
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

640
00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 15: Go ahead, It's like me, this is Spaghetty hisl of

641
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,239
Barnabas or the Acts of Barnabas, which are two apocryphal

642
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,880
documents from the second century. But the Gospel of Barnabas

643
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,840
in particular, we know it's a forgery. In chapter ninety two,

644
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:40,079
it says that Jesus spent forty days on Mount Sinai,

645
00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:41,760
and then he came to the Jordan River and he

646
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,920
walked to Jerusalem. But Mount Sinai is more than a

647
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,800
week's journey away from Jerusalem. It chose no actual indication

648
00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:52,679
of coming from or even having knowledge of first century

649
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,079
Jewish understanding.

650
00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:55,599
Speaker 6: Burnout.

651
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,559
Speaker 14: We all experience it at some point.

652
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 17: It's so important to me that I've actually been working

653
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,280
on it in therapy, in.

654
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 14: Fact, with the help of better help.

655
00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:06,679
Speaker 6: YouTube thinks I need therapy. They keep sending me this

656
00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:12,639
this therapy ad. So thank you algorithmic deity who has

657
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,920
psychoanalyzed me to realize that what I need. I wonder

658
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,719
why I need therapy? According to the AI over lords. Yeah,

659
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,000
so again, this is probably the essence of the debate.

660
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,639
Uh You've got Billy relying on, first of all, a

661
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,679
made up Bible of Sinai, and then you've got him.

662
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:33,639
Speaker 5: Switching over to.

663
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 6: Gospel of Barnabas, which my first does he mean the

664
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,199
Epistle of Barnabas?

665
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 5: I mean, what is he talking about? And uh no,

666
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:43,639
but I don't. I don't.

667
00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:48,159
Speaker 6: I've never heard of anyone accepting the Gospel of Barnabas

668
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,719
unless this is one of these like gnostic texts. I mean,

669
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,599
obviously it's a super graphical tech, but I've never done

670
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:57,400
one who believes in it, except perhaps, uh, you know,

671
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,360
people who believe in the Gospel of Thomas or the

672
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,760
Gospel of g Duds, all these sort of pseudo texts.

673
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,559
This is why you need, by the way, the tradition

674
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,880
of the church. Now I'm not faulting wes Huff for

675
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:11,639
making textual arguments, and you know, showing from internal evidence

676
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,639
that the Gospel of Barnabas is a forgery, because obviously

677
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,599
I'm sure it is, And the fact that Billy Carson

678
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:21,239
says what's written in Spanish and Italian again just demonstrates

679
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,119
as idiotcy since that's hundreds of years removed from the

680
00:42:24,199 --> 00:42:26,920
first four or five centuries of the Church and the

681
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,639
translations that the ancient church had.

682
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 5: At the same time.

683
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,039
Speaker 6: It's like, okay, Wes, but like you, you also are

684
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:40,840
missing a key component that Billy also doesn't have. And

685
00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:43,840
if you don't have the tradition and testimony of the Church,

686
00:42:44,559 --> 00:42:48,400
then what happens is by default in the Protestant world,

687
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,039
you're really just left up to random Protestant scholars. How

688
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:57,760
do you know which Protestant scholars to follow about the

689
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:03,360
canon because it ranges from conservative to higher criticism, and

690
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,960
it's all over the place. So the point though I'm

691
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,719
making here is about what we call normative authority. Did

692
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:14,039
the apostles have authority to make judgments? Did Jesus set

693
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:15,960
up a body of people that have what we call

694
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:19,079
normative authority that could make judgments about these kinds of things,

695
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:22,920
or did Jesus just leave it up to everybody to

696
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:25,920
fin for themselves and to try to figure out what

697
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:26,920
the canon is and.

698
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:28,559
Speaker 5: What the right list of books is.

699
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 6: And I guess we all got to go get PhDs

700
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,119
and be west huff to know the canon of scripture. Now,

701
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:38,199
doesn't that seem kind of absurd? Doesn't it seem like

702
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:39,920
we wouldn't And by the way, wouldn't we have to

703
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,679
reinvent the wheel every generation to every new generation. Can't

704
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,760
trust that the previous generation got it right because only

705
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,119
the Apostles were infallible.

706
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 5: They're all dead.

707
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:58,119
Speaker 6: So why didn't Jesus leave a normative, competent authority within

708
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:01,239
his church? And I'm not so about the papacy, because

709
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:02,960
we're going to see in a minute that didn't end

710
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:07,239
up being a norm a competent, coherent thing for the

711
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:09,280
for the Roman Catholics either when we look at the

712
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:10,639
Bara Ubi debate.

713
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 5: But I'm just.

714
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 6: Pointing out that while obviously there's no doubt that Wes

715
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,519
is making a fool out of this goofus, I'd really

716
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:25,280
like to hear Wes's Protestant arguments for why we're supposed

717
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,079
to follow Rabbinic Jews in terms of the Canada Scripture

718
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,440
and not the apostles.

719
00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:34,079
Speaker 14: Okay, so it's not better or gets better.

720
00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:35,039
Speaker 16: This this is, this is light.

721
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,519
Speaker 17: It's not cooperated by any of the other writings.

722
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 6: Obviously, reddited dude is getting on my nerves.

723
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,159
Speaker 5: So we're going to fast forward to the debate.

724
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,039
Speaker 15: Which is written in thirteen fourteen.

725
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:50,039
Speaker 14: You don't have any.

726
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,079
Speaker 17: So he's just saying, this is like a this is

727
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:58,039
like a Christian fan fiction of Datanzeferno.

728
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 5: Is this was that Rousselan's real laugh? So is that

729
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:10,079
a real laugh? Like whose laugh was more.

730
00:45:11,639 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 15: Of a.

731
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:22,159
Speaker 6: Uh, a charity laugh, like when Sam Triplet or Rouslan's

732
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,079
laugh there, that was a forced laugh I've ever heard one.

733
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:29,679
Speaker 16: He presents it as well, you know, Oh my bad.

734
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,639
It was the Gospel of Barnabas. Gospel Gospel Barnabas is

735
00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:34,440
written in the first century. Not maybe he was in

736
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:38,480
directingly implying, but this is a thousand, two hundred years later.

737
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 17: That because of the Council of Nicea, they just left

738
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:44,360
out I was left out.

739
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,159
Speaker 4: But it is actually so reviewing in the fourteenth century.

740
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 6: Now these Protestants are laughing about Billy Carson and the

741
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,079
Council of Nicea. But the irony is that Rouslan and

742
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:56,599
his co host don't even know what's in the Council

743
00:45:56,599 --> 00:45:58,480
of Nicea, because I guarantee that they haven't read the

744
00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:01,320
Cannons of Nicea, Because if they read the Canons in Icia,

745
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,760
they've realized that the Niceing Creed is not just what's

746
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,320
produced by the Council of Nicia. There's canons church law,

747
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,159
and everything in the Canons of Nicea refutes Protestantism.

748
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,559
Speaker 5: There's nothing Protestant at all.

749
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:20,079
Speaker 6: You've got episcopacy, you've got the diaconate, you've got the altar,

750
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,800
the Eucharist, You've got all these things in the Canons

751
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,079
of Icia that are not Protestant. And yet they're laughing

752
00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:31,239
at Billy Carson as if they have a connection to

753
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,519
Nicia as Protestants.

754
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:34,599
Speaker 5: No, you don't.

755
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:40,119
Speaker 6: Now, you might intellectually profess the deity of Christ, but

756
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,599
you don't profess the rest of what's in Nicia. So

757
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,519
you're not really in a much better position than Billy

758
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:50,360
Carson in terms of arbitrarily picking and choosing from history.

759
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 15: Is he didn't know that those were the same words

760
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,559
the Gospel of Barnabasus paraphrases Dante's Inferno which is written

761
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:01,880
in thirteen fourteen. We don't have any evidence of it

762
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,880
prior to the fourteenth century. So I'm a historian. So

763
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,280
if there is something that denies the Crucifixion, I want

764
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,559
to make sure that I'm analyzing it and that the

765
00:47:09,679 --> 00:47:12,880
methodology by which I analyze it actually reveals that the

766
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:16,199
content can be accurately tied to the event we have.

767
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:19,519
Speaker 17: You know, Billy Carson's face to this whole thing looks

768
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:24,400
like someone that's asking an accountant about tax information.

769
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 6: Like it's kind of like, all right, this red headed

770
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,159
guys get on my nerves. If I do go on

771
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,039
Rouslan's show, I'm gonna be uncharitable to the red headed guy.

772
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,719
Now that's a joke that I'm making, and I guarantee

773
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,119
you that they'll probably say I can't let you on

774
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:45,559
the show, Jay because of the uncharitable comments you made

775
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,280
to my red headed co host, when obviously I'm making

776
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:48,800
Joe's say.

777
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,119
Speaker 5: See, this is how these people are.

778
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,679
Speaker 16: Beings that are coming down, similar to Jesus coming down,

779
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,400
except the beings are coming down with advanced technology. Jesus

780
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,480
is coming down in a manger as a humble bait.

781
00:47:58,639 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 6: So this is what I guess getting now to the

782
00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:09,360
alien ancient alien stuff that Billy Carson promotes, Right, why

783
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,039
are we even having to debate Billy Carson?

784
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:12,639
Speaker 5: You see what I'm saying. It's like when when Matt

785
00:48:12,679 --> 00:48:14,639
Walsh put out his what is a woman?

786
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 6: Oh, we own them, dude, we own all them. People

787
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,320
that was arguing in a man could be going, I'm

788
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,880
like the fact that you're having to make a documentary

789
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:28,719
about what a woman is means that we've lost in

790
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,800
the culture already. The fact that you got to refute

791
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:37,719
Billy Carson means that we are way down the rabbit hole.

792
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,039
We are way down the downward spiral. Okay to quote

793
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,119
a tarent A resonoir Okay.

794
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 14: Lower technology. Right, And so that's the issue.

795
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 6: Like we're gonna be having like documentaries and debates that

796
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:57,480
two plus two is four and then people are gonna

797
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,159
be like, oh, we own the math deniers, dude, a

798
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:08,360
Succo net libs two live. We proved it plus two four,

799
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,199
We're going bays rat wing.

800
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,039
Speaker 14: We're reservings maybe coming in vulnerable, they're coming in powerful.

801
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,280
So it's like it has to be inverted, you know

802
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:17,599
what I mean.

803
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:19,199
Speaker 16: It has to be it has to be inverted, and

804
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,280
so he has to attack the true story, which is

805
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,079
Jesus Manuel got among us and that's what that's how

806
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:29,639
we get He set himself this strap by consistently in Christianity.

807
00:49:29,679 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 14: He finally got his car pulled.

808
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:31,519
Speaker 5: That's crazy.

809
00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 15: Go ahead, single copies of the Gospels that can be

810
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,599
dated to the second century, that all do have the crucifixion.

811
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,400
I have affectimately behind me of.

812
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:42,079
Speaker 8: Of p.

813
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 14: Sixty six.

814
00:49:43,039 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 8: This is it.

815
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 6: This debate reminds me of me debating Pedro.

816
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:48,199
Speaker 7: Uh.

817
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 6: Pedro was like looking down the whole time, like he

818
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,920
was like he was embarrassed, right, And Wesley Help looks

819
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,280
like a Wesley Help looks like a damn drill sergeant

820
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,159
from Starship Troopers. I feel like he's going to be

821
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,400
telling me to go, you know, shoot the space bugs

822
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,800
or something. In fact, he is basically shooting space bugs spiritually,

823
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,880
because Billy Carson's worldview is.

824
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 19: Like Starship Troopers theologically, right, So it's like this is

825
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,559
like theology Starship Troopers over here with Casper van Diem

826
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:25,719
facing off against you know, alien space bug theology of Billy.

827
00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:29,199
Speaker 15: Corson late second century copy of the Gospel of John.

828
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,559
I work with this particular manuscript. This is an almost

829
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:35,639
complete copy of the Gospel of John, and it has

830
00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:38,920
the Crucifixion. And so if we're relying on something like

831
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,880
the Gospel of Barnabas, which is not just that there's

832
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:44,719
debate about it, it's a known forgery. I mean, no

833
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,480
one's referring to the Gospel of Barnabas as anything other than.

834
00:50:47,559 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 10: If you say it's an unfortuen esh. But I'm going

835
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:49,639
to go with that.

836
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,639
Speaker 6: So now, this is the text from the thirteen hundreds, bro.

837
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:03,440
I mean, like, if it's from the thirteen hundreds, then

838
00:51:03,519 --> 00:51:06,960
it's not close to the first three centuries.

839
00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 5: You see what I'm saying. I mean, come on, dude,

840
00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:11,079
what's up with this?

841
00:51:11,199 --> 00:51:14,599
Speaker 6: Dude's jean shirt, by the way, a button up jean shirt.

842
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:15,039
Speaker 10: Is this?

843
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 6: This is rous lines like I'm gonna reach out to

844
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:21,440
the working class bros out there with my jean shirt,

845
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,000
redheaded ginger man here, my ginger every man.

846
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 14: Here, appreciated form.

847
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,559
Speaker 16: If you say it's the fort Dram gonna go with that,

848
00:51:33,159 --> 00:51:36,599
then what ends up happening is he basically says that's

849
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:38,320
only a tenth of what I talk about.

850
00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 14: That's only a small, small percenttion. We don't care all

851
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,360
the other stuff you're teaching. We care about the stup

852
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,880
you're teaching about Christianity. That's our beef with you.

853
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 6: Bro Okay, I care about all the ancient alien on

854
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,679
That's that's just a lot more interesting.

855
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 5: Let's get to that stuff. Let's talk about the you

856
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:54,239
know we was, We.

857
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 6: Was gods and flying pimptile pyramids. That's what I want

858
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,760
to hear about. I want I want to know what

859
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:02,079
pyramids that I want to know where to go that.

860
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:05,079
I'm gonna uproot that pyramid. I'm gonna get the gold

861
00:52:05,079 --> 00:52:06,880
and I'm gonna trick out my pyramid as I fly

862
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:10,119
through space in a pimpt ole pyramid. That's what I want,

863
00:52:11,079 --> 00:52:12,239
and that's what the audience wants.

864
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 5: Reson I.

865
00:52:13,519 --> 00:52:16,679
Speaker 6: I can't understand why you don't see that we want

866
00:52:17,559 --> 00:52:19,880
tricked out space pyramids made a goal.

867
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,519
Speaker 14: That's what ain't just good.

868
00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:26,599
Speaker 10: They discovered the Book of They discovered the Book of

869
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,480
Jesus's Wife, which is at the Harvard Seminary. A little controversial,

870
00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:31,480
but they claim that this.

871
00:52:31,599 --> 00:52:35,639
Speaker 6: Is they They discovered the Book of Jesus's Wife at

872
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,679
Harvard seminary area. Do you remember the story. I've told

873
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:44,599
this story many times of the gnostic woman. The I

874
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:47,039
think she was at Harvard, either Harvard or Princeton. There

875
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:50,599
was a PhD woman who found some sort of feminist

876
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:54,119
Gnostic gospel and it was this was like twenty years ago.

877
00:52:54,119 --> 00:52:59,719
It was how did it's It's mentioned in uh Hoffman's

878
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:02,280
volume two. I can go get the exact reference here

879
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,519
in a little bit because I forget the name of

880
00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:06,880
her book. But it's like twenty two thousand and three,

881
00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:09,320
some woman, Oh, I found this was in the y'all

882
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,599
don't remember this, But in the two thousands, when Dan

883
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,480
Brown's Gibberish came out, there.

884
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:14,639
Speaker 10: Was this.

885
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:21,639
Speaker 6: Fad of Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas Dan Brown, right,

886
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,880
the Secret Code of Blah blah blah, right.

887
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:25,559
Speaker 5: All this stuff was really hype then.

888
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,079
Speaker 6: And this woman put out on her version of it,

889
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:33,760
some professor at Skittles University wherever she was, and she

890
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,360
had found this secret gospel and she had translated it

891
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,239
and it was all made up. And when they confronted

892
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,559
her about it. This is a great insight into the Left.

893
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:47,440
By the way, they said, why did you, how did

894
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,280
you think it was intellectually honest as an academic to

895
00:53:53,199 --> 00:53:56,599
claim that you had found this ancient proto feminist gospel.

896
00:53:57,159 --> 00:53:59,960
And she said, well, but it was against the patriarchy,

897
00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:03,440
and so it was justified, and I don't need justification

898
00:54:03,599 --> 00:54:07,719
because anything against the patriarchy is therefore justified. And so

899
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,360
I was in the right even though it was all

900
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,480
made up nonsense, because I'm fighting the man man literally,

901
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:14,239
that was her argument.

902
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 10: Anyway, the record that Jesus may have even been married,

903
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:25,119
which then that's true and adds more to the hypothesis

904
00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:27,599
that maybe he wasn't crucified.

905
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,199
Speaker 16: So is it so you see what he did always

906
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,800
at the Harvard Library. So that's like the credibility anchor.

907
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:36,079
Speaker 5: Yeah.

908
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:39,639
Speaker 6: I mean there's a bunch of other nonsense suss stuff

909
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:40,719
coming out of Harvard too.

910
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:41,079
Speaker 9: Like, so.

911
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,559
Speaker 6: One thing that's ironic about Billy Carson citing the fact

912
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:48,360
that it's at the Harvard Library. Everything that Billy Carson

913
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:53,000
says is one of percent against anything establishment, right, I mean,

914
00:54:53,039 --> 00:54:57,800
it's the most wacky space theology, space opera stuff. But

915
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,000
then he's gonna slide in this fact that there's some

916
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,480
manuscript at Harvard. Well, bro, you don't like Harvard doesn't

917
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,760
believe anything you say. And by the way, I don't

918
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,400
care what Harvard says anyway. I mean, Harvard's a total CIA,

919
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,079
you know university. It's a bunch of nonsense. But it's

920
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:17,280
just funny that Billy Carson, who says the craziest new

921
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,760
Age we was King's space God's alien theology, will try

922
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,400
to slide in a Harvard reference when everything he says

923
00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:28,719
is one percent against anything that would be at Harvard.

924
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 5: Right now, actually, I take that back.

925
00:55:31,039 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 6: I mean, if Harvard is putting out in NaSTA Gospels

926
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,760
like that other woman, and I mean, maybe maybe Billy

927
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,360
Carson should be the chair of the theology department at Harvard,

928
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,440
I'm gonna take that back. I literally want to see

929
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,440
and we was Kane's department at Harvard, and I want

930
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,320
to see Billy Carson in that chair. And by the way,

931
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,679
it's not going to be a chair that's a rolling

932
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:55,119
you know, gamer professor. Chair is going to be a

933
00:55:55,239 --> 00:56:00,360
damn golden throne with jewels in it, because it's a

934
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:01,239
space God.

935
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 5: We was King's chair.

936
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,599
Speaker 14: That's why watch Watch what Watch What.

937
00:56:06,199 --> 00:56:10,519
Speaker 15: Jesus's wife is in the Harvard Library However, the reason

938
00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:14,320
we know it's also not legitimate is because even though

939
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,480
the manuscript but pyrus that is on was carbon dated

940
00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:21,440
to the fourth century, the text was actually copied from

941
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,360
a PDF version of the Gospel of Thomas known as

942
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,239
Grondin's Interlinear And there can we start.

943
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 6: With the south We like, what if we did adult

944
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:34,360
think about it instead of the must be racketing.

945
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 4: We literally just get that in like a five video

946
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,400
coming from a PDF like it as it's as new

947
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:43,320
as the Internet.

948
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:43,639
Speaker 14: I think.

949
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 10: So.

950
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:48,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like people haven't figured out yet that in

951
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,719
the religious domain there are con men and frauds and forgeries.

952
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 5: Ask the Vatican. The Vatican is bro.

953
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 6: The Vatican was forging documents way before Internet.

954
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:02,519
Speaker 5: Bros were forging documents.

955
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 6: Okay, the Vatican was printing mean coins way before it

956
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:10,519
was doing it, was doing document rug pulls, way before

957
00:57:11,119 --> 00:57:13,960
crypto nerds on the Internet were doing it, way before

958
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:15,159
hawk Tua was doing it.

959
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 5: Me named oktuah.

960
00:57:17,559 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 6: That's my Indian name, by the way, uh in an

961
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,719
official Indian parlance. And I don't mean they took the

962
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:25,840
stunts from here Indian.

963
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:27,559
Speaker 5: You know what I mean, y'all know what I mean.

964
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 6: I'm talking about American, red blooded, born and raised Indians,

965
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,960
those kin the real con I'm talking about Daniel day Lewis,

966
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,559
last of the Mohicans, those real Indians.

967
00:57:42,159 --> 00:57:45,559
Speaker 17: It's not even like a in the thirteen hundred's type

968
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:48,199
of coffee. It's like a nineteen nineties copy.

969
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 14: It's like a two thousand and five copy.

970
00:57:52,119 --> 00:57:52,639
Speaker 1: It is good.

971
00:57:53,079 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 15: There was a mistake in the coptic text of Grandin's

972
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,480
Interlineer that was copied into the Gospel of Jesus's Wife.

973
00:57:59,559 --> 00:58:02,880
We can tie directly to not copping from an agent text,

974
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,519
but actually copying from an online version of the Gospel

975
00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:07,639
of Thomas in a PDF form. I think we need

976
00:58:07,679 --> 00:58:10,000
to make sure that we're going towards not just early sources,

977
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:13,440
but actually credible sources. And unfortunately, neither the Gospel of

978
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,960
Barnbus nor the Gospel of Jesus' Wife are credible sources

979
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,760
and agreed upon by not just the vast majority of scholarship.

980
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,920
But I don't know anybody in the field of paparology, haliography,

981
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:26,760
historiography who actually refers to these documents as being legitimate.

982
00:58:27,239 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 10: That's fair enough that I can respect that. So let's

983
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:31,920
go into the Old Testament a little bit.

984
00:58:32,159 --> 00:58:32,639
Speaker 7: What time?

985
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:35,679
Speaker 14: Wow, Wes protect.

986
00:58:37,559 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 6: I thought we were going to a MGM sports bet ad.

987
00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:45,519
With all that cheering in the background, I thought, Rousselan

988
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:49,000
is going to start pimping out MGM's sports bet.

989
00:58:49,719 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 8: Was that?

990
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 5: What was that sound?

991
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 6: A crowd sound effect? Okay, I think that's the essence

992
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,719
of this. I mean, I'm glad we had Rouslan's eleven

993
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,840
minute breakdown because I sure as heck I'm not gonna

994
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,840
sit through however long. This was two hours of Billy

995
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,360
Carson's I wish we could have got more space alien

996
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:08,480
stuff because that would have been a.

997
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 5: Lot more interesting, you know what I mean. Let's get

998
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:12,320
a little more action.

999
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 6: Let's get some space battles, Let's get some Starship Troopers.

1000
00:59:16,119 --> 00:59:19,800
We already had Billy Carson basically debating Casper van Dean.

1001
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,119
There does nobody get these jokes? Anybody get the jokes

1002
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:25,880
I'm making. Nobody's seen Starship Troopers, nobody knows what I'm

1003
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,519
talking about, because I thought that was a pretty good one.

1004
00:59:28,599 --> 00:59:31,840
Come on, Wes Huff, looks like Casper van dem Come on, now,

1005
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:34,559
tell me he doesn't y'all know what I'm talking about

1006
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,679
nobody's seen Starship Troopers? Was anybody in the nineties?

1007
00:59:40,719 --> 00:59:42,599
Speaker 5: Am I the only one that was in the nineties?

1008
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,119
Speaker 6: Look right there, Billy Huff. There's Billy Huff right there,

1009
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:54,599
he's over here, pre supping Christmas Jones.

1010
00:59:54,599 --> 00:59:55,119
Speaker 5: What's her name?

1011
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,239
Speaker 6: I don't know any actors real names. All I ever

1012
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,239
think about is movie names. So Denise Richards, right, Christmas

1013
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,639
Jones from start from James Bond right, So Casper man

1014
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:10,519
Dims over here pre supping. You know Gary Busey's son,

1015
01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:12,639
you can tell by the You can identify Gary Busey's

1016
01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:14,400
son by his teeth because he has his dad, his

1017
01:00:14,519 --> 01:00:15,440
dad's teeth.

1018
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 5: Literally put into his head.

1019
01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 6: And you got Christmas Jones over here, and then Casper

1020
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:26,920
Van Diem and again it was just like Starship Troopers,

1021
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,320
except it was a spiritual Starship Troopers, and Billy Carson

1022
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,440
had that alien game that his alien game was not

1023
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:37,039
on point in that debate, was it?

1024
01:00:37,239 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 9: No? It was not?

1025
01:00:38,599 --> 01:00:42,679
Speaker 6: So once again, how am I James analysis has vindicated

1026
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,800
because we were making fun of Billy Carson freaking a

1027
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,920
year ago. So anyway, all right, let's move on to

1028
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,199
the next debate. We got some highlights we're gonna hit here.

1029
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:54,920
This one is really long three hours, so we're not

1030
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,639
gonna hit all this. We're gonna hit the highlights Ubi

1031
01:00:58,719 --> 01:01:04,239
versus et Barah hotly anticipated so many years in the making.

1032
01:01:04,519 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 5: Before we get into it.

1033
01:01:05,519 --> 01:01:08,639
Speaker 6: My first criticism is I wish this debate had not

1034
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:15,119
been so hyper precise, but I suspect that Ibarra probably

1035
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:18,760
would only do a hyper precise debate. The problem with

1036
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,559
the hyper precise debate is that this went over ninety

1037
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:24,920
percent of the audiences, like ninety percent of the content whatever.

1038
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,679
Nine percent of the audience is head I think because

1039
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:34,079
the debate was specifically the papacy of Pope Vigilius in

1040
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:35,559
what fifth.

1041
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:36,239
Speaker 5: And sixth centuries?

1042
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 6: So was the Vatican One concept of the papacy present

1043
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,880
in the fifth and sixth centuries. I don't mind the

1044
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:49,400
top like that's a great topic. I think it would

1045
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,599
have been a little bit better if it had been

1046
01:01:51,519 --> 01:01:54,679
was the Vatican One concept of the papacy manifest in

1047
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,800
the first millennium? But maybe Abara said.

1048
01:01:57,559 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 5: Well, it's going to be more precise than debt.

1049
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:07,159
Speaker 6: So let's uh, Tom, We're gonna start with Michael Knowles's

1050
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:09,800
face and do we get fifty percent off of Michael

1051
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,840
Knowles's sweaters, because that's the only thing I care about

1052
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,360
in this Cyber Week sale. Can I get fifty percent

1053
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,800
off of Michael noles sweater? That's all I care about? Right,

1054
01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:24,280
So let's go to Eric Ibara right here, and I'm

1055
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,079
gonna I'm gonna try to withhold from making jokes because

1056
01:02:28,519 --> 01:02:31,199
everyone says that that's uncharitable.

1057
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 5: Don't make jokes. It's uncharitable. It's uncharitable if you make

1058
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:42,000
a joke. DC, we're working, says for three dollars silence.

1059
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 14: Silence.

1060
01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:47,719
Speaker 6: Also, I'm a little nervous about playing too much of

1061
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:53,079
this because Matt Frat has not appreciated that I have

1062
01:02:53,199 --> 01:02:55,960
impersonated his voice. See, this is how sensitive the people

1063
01:02:56,039 --> 01:02:58,760
in this whole sphere are, right Like, they can make

1064
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:00,960
a million videos about you all day long. If you

1065
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:05,159
impersonate them, then you're muted. Because I tried to comment

1066
01:03:05,239 --> 01:03:08,239
on this debate, no one could see my comments because

1067
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,719
of course Matt Fred has had me muted for many years.

1068
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 5: That's fine.

1069
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,719
Speaker 6: I don't care what Matt Fred does. But it's just

1070
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:21,360
like this whole sphere of people is just so just passive, aggressive, man. Anyway,

1071
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,199
let's get to We're gonna do a Borrow's opening statement,

1072
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,000
ubi's opening statement, and then we're gonna go to the highlights.

1073
01:03:29,239 --> 01:03:30,800
So let's see if we can get through this.

1074
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 4: Thank you Matt for hosting this debate. Thank you UBI,

1075
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,920
Denny for accepting I should begin by briefly defining Vatican One.

1076
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,400
Vatican One's doctrine of papal government can be boiled down

1077
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:45,079
to three things.

1078
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,039
Speaker 6: I was hoping that they would do this now. I

1079
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,400
still have not seen the opening statements, so this is

1080
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,199
the part that I actually missed, so you're gonna get

1081
01:03:52,239 --> 01:03:56,480
my raw, fresh reaction to the opening statements. I watched

1082
01:03:56,559 --> 01:04:00,519
about the second and third thirds of the debate, so

1083
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:03,760
I'm trying to catch up to everything in here. And

1084
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,519
my first concern was, and I know this from so

1085
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:10,800
many years of debating Roman Catholics and myself formerly being

1086
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,079
Roman Catholic and knowing this tobby very well. Quite often

1087
01:04:14,239 --> 01:04:19,000
in this unfortunate genre, people don't define what Vatical one

1088
01:04:19,039 --> 01:04:21,199
actually says. So I'm happy that at least Debora is

1089
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:22,840
going to do that. I don't know if it's going

1090
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,320
to be correct, but let's see what he says.

1091
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 4: Number one, Jesus conferred supreme authority to Peter alone. Number two,

1092
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,320
the perpetuity of this authority in the Bishop of Rome

1093
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,880
as the successor of Peter until the end of time.

1094
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,800
And three the nature of this authority as including full

1095
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,519
power to teach infallibly and to possess immediate, direct, and

1096
01:04:47,719 --> 01:04:52,519
universal jurisdiction over all Christians. My job today is to

1097
01:04:52,639 --> 01:04:53,280
prove these.

1098
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 8: Uh.

1099
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 6: Now, there's already a problem with this definition, because although

1100
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:03,199
those three the broad things are correct, what was not

1101
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:08,760
mentioned was the extraordinary magisterium and the universal ordinary Magisterium

1102
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:14,719
being guided by the terrorism. And that's really important for

1103
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,519
this debate because a lot of times, and you're gonna

1104
01:05:18,519 --> 01:05:21,280
notice in this debate that Eric ends up pushing what's

1105
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:26,079
called papal minimalism. Tim Gordon is now pushing minimalism. All

1106
01:05:26,239 --> 01:05:30,440
of the modern pop apologists of the papacy have moved

1107
01:05:30,519 --> 01:05:34,679
into this domain now of pushing what they call papal minimalism,

1108
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,519
precisely because they have to move in that direction to

1109
01:05:38,639 --> 01:05:41,679
try to rescue the position because Frank is so bad

1110
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,039
and such an embarrassment. So they have to try to

1111
01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:47,719
minimalize the actual authority of the pope, what he's up to,

1112
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,320
what he can say, what he can do, what's binding,

1113
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:55,639
what isn't to make the position work. However, when you

1114
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,079
actually read about it, can one there is no papal minimalism.

1115
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:05,320
It is the old peopal maximalist dogmatic council. And that's

1116
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,360
why every time I bring this up, you hear me

1117
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:17,880
arguing and looking for argumentation about ordinary magisterium. Let's find

1118
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:25,119
ordinary magistran Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith, all those

1119
01:06:25,159 --> 01:06:26,599
things that are be believed, which are contained in the

1120
01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:28,159
Word of God has found a scripture, tradition, and which

1121
01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:29,960
are proposed by the Church, has matters to believed on

1122
01:06:30,119 --> 01:06:34,119
the real whether in solimn judgment or or universal ordinary magisterrum.

1123
01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:38,519
So notice that this topic was not mentioned so far

1124
01:06:38,639 --> 01:06:42,039
in the debate. Maybe it will come up later, right,

1125
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:46,440
maybe not, We'll have to see. But so far it's

1126
01:06:46,599 --> 01:06:49,920
just left kind of broad to be that the Pope

1127
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,400
has this universal authority. But the reason this matters is

1128
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,480
that in the papal minimalist approach, they're going to try

1129
01:06:56,519 --> 01:06:59,519
to argue that the only thing that you're really bound by,

1130
01:06:59,719 --> 01:07:05,119
or that we hold Francis accountable to, is this minimalist

1131
01:07:05,239 --> 01:07:07,719
idea or this minimalist thing. The only thing he can

1132
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:12,159
pronounce is the occasional sort of ex cathedra type of pronouncement.

1133
01:07:12,239 --> 01:07:13,239
Speaker 5: But that's not the case.

1134
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:20,119
Speaker 6: In fact, what's binding is the entire domain of Catholic

1135
01:07:20,199 --> 01:07:24,199
theology that's under universal ordinary, et cetera. And they define

1136
01:07:24,239 --> 01:07:27,880
that as anything that Rome has always taught at all

1137
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,920
times and in all places. Now that's a very broad definition,

1138
01:07:32,159 --> 01:07:33,920
but that's how they define it. In terms of the

1139
01:07:34,039 --> 01:07:38,039
ordinary universal Magistrate, that's also binding, and not just the

1140
01:07:38,119 --> 01:07:41,519
so called ex cathedral pronouncements. But the reason that matters

1141
01:07:41,639 --> 01:07:44,159
is that that means you are bound by much more

1142
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:48,119
than a minimalist list of ex cathedral documents. By the way,

1143
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:50,559
there is no actual list of what's ex cathedral. So,

1144
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,519
in case you thought that the position made it clear,

1145
01:07:54,239 --> 01:07:56,480
and most Roman Catholics in the pop sphere think that

1146
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,840
the papal position is minimalist and it makes it clear,

1147
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:02,599
it doesn't because you don't actually ever have.

1148
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,519
Speaker 5: A list of the ex cathedral documents.

1149
01:08:06,559 --> 01:08:11,239
Speaker 6: Now, if we were in the Roman Catholic system, wouldn't

1150
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,440
we expect there to be an infallible list of infallible

1151
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,159
documents or the infallible list of the ex cathedra statements,

1152
01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:20,359
an ex cathedral statement about what the ex cathedra statements are,

1153
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:23,279
then we would know. But no, actually, in the Roman

1154
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:25,920
Catholic system you don't actually have that. You have broad

1155
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,720
criteria that every individual Catholic has to then interpret this

1156
01:08:31,079 --> 01:08:35,239
massive amount of documents and history and decrees and so forth.

1157
01:08:37,119 --> 01:08:40,760
So note though this is Vatican one on the screen,

1158
01:08:41,039 --> 01:08:46,039
and Vatican one does not restrict it to the solemn judgments,

1159
01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:50,159
namely the ex cathedral, it also says the ordinary magistarian,

1160
01:08:51,119 --> 01:08:53,760
all of those things are dogma and must be revealed

1161
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,720
as or must be believed as divine revelation. So that's

1162
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:03,279
very important because they oftentimes overlook this and blow past it.

1163
01:09:04,039 --> 01:09:07,920
And just like with natural theology, where Roman Catholics will say, well,

1164
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,319
we all believe in God logos of John one. That's

1165
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:14,720
just like the logos of you know, the pagan Greek philosophers.

1166
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:16,760
We all believe in logos, we all believe in God,

1167
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,880
because if you believe in one God, it's all the

1168
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:24,359
same God. That is a word concept fallacy, that's trading

1169
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:30,600
on a lot of ambiguous language. And likewise, in so

1170
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,520
many papal debates, you have this not clearly defined notion

1171
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:40,640
of what people and bility if infallibility actually is, versus

1172
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,960
the assumption that all I just have to prove these

1173
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,119
sort of generic ideas about the Bishop of Rome in

1174
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:53,079
the first millennia are the first few centuries. So in

1175
01:09:53,119 --> 01:09:56,239
other words, if Rome is mentioned as first, if Rome

1176
01:09:56,359 --> 01:09:59,399
has an appellate authority in sartikar et cetera, et cetera,

1177
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,760
why couldn't that possibly be Vatican One? And as the

1178
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,399
debate progresses. What's funny about this this If you watch

1179
01:10:08,399 --> 01:10:10,600
the whole debate, and you've probably noticed that multiple times,

1180
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,800
Eric actually is kind of arguing and debating what he

1181
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,720
has to debate. So it's almost like eventually starts saying,

1182
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:22,520
I don't really have to prove or show papal autocracy

1183
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,000
in the first millennium. I just have to show that

1184
01:10:25,119 --> 01:10:29,159
there's that there's a possibility that these examples that he

1185
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:32,279
gives can be interpreted in that way, which the more

1186
01:10:32,319 --> 01:10:36,960
I think about it, it seems kind of fallacious and

1187
01:10:37,039 --> 01:10:40,479
it's more than an argument from silence. I'll read Snacks.

1188
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:42,680
I thought Snack's comment was pretty accurate the way he

1189
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:47,359
said it, and I think you'll notice this as we progress.

1190
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:51,960
A Borro's position, as Snack said, is basically unfalsifiable. It

1191
01:10:52,039 --> 01:10:54,840
says that Vatican One can be proven without ever having

1192
01:10:54,920 --> 01:11:00,600
to demonstrate it explicitly. Basically, Abara argues that all evidence

1193
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:06,760
and actions that are demonstrable non X. Wait, let me

1194
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:09,680
rephrase that. It basically says that all evidence and actions

1195
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:13,079
can be can be demonstrated to be non X non.

1196
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 5: Papal and fallibility.

1197
01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:17,279
Speaker 6: But if you find one document that could be interpreted

1198
01:11:17,359 --> 01:11:20,239
as papal and fallibility, then papal and fallibility is true.

1199
01:11:21,079 --> 01:11:23,600
And the more that you watch and listen to this

1200
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:27,479
debate and the way that it goes, I think Snack

1201
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,159
is correct in that. And maybe we could get father

1202
01:11:30,199 --> 01:11:32,760
again and Ice who's in the chat. Maybe FDA could explain.

1203
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,119
I mean, is it just an argument. It's just such

1204
01:11:37,159 --> 01:11:42,760
a weird version of I don't have to look at

1205
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,680
all the counter examples. If I can find one example

1206
01:11:47,039 --> 01:11:50,920
that possibly proves my case, that's just such a bizarre, weak,

1207
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,760
weird argument. Well, I don't know what you guys think

1208
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,159
I mean. And that's why later on the debate, a

1209
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:03,039
Boras says something like I don't think I have the

1210
01:12:03,119 --> 01:12:06,439
burden of proof to show papal infallibility. I just have

1211
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:09,319
to show that it's possible. I mean, And that's why

1212
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:12,479
UBI later says, well, Eric, you have a really strong

1213
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,159
claim about papal and fallibility. We should at least be

1214
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:18,399
able to see an example of it. And then and

1215
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:21,279
Eric's just like, maybe we don't. Maybe we just have

1216
01:12:21,399 --> 01:12:26,319
to have a kind of a generic possibility that could

1217
01:12:26,319 --> 01:12:28,000
be interpreted that way, and then my case is proven.

1218
01:12:28,239 --> 01:12:29,840
Father Deacon, What do you think about this kind of

1219
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,840
a what kind of argument is this?

1220
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1221
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:34,600
Speaker 10: What would we call that?

1222
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,039
Speaker 18: I mean, generally, I guess there would be some sort

1223
01:12:40,039 --> 01:12:41,239
of hasty generalization.

1224
01:12:41,319 --> 01:12:42,199
Speaker 5: But it's weirder than that.

1225
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:48,079
Speaker 18: It's let's let's use a counter example.

1226
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 5: Okay, So.

1227
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:55,600
Speaker 10: I don't have to.

1228
01:12:58,079 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 18: Consider all the counter objections of pink flying elephants.

1229
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 5: All I have to do is.

1230
01:13:05,319 --> 01:13:07,119
Speaker 6: Show the positive that there might have been a pink

1231
01:13:07,159 --> 01:13:11,880
flying elephant. Therefore there was yeah, or what why if

1232
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,119
an orthodox person flipped and use that argument what an

1233
01:13:14,199 --> 01:13:17,279
orthodox person said, I don't have to consider all of

1234
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:21,680
the uh for the sake of argument papal positions. If

1235
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,760
I can show one place where you might read it

1236
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,479
as the orthodox position, the orthodoxy is true, nobody would

1237
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:28,880
accept that.

1238
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 18: No, the only time that something like that works is

1239
01:13:35,239 --> 01:13:40,439
if you say it's logically impossible, that's such and such.

1240
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,840
Then I don't actually have to consider, you know, every

1241
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:50,359
single example if I can actually prove something's logically possible.

1242
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:51,960
But that's not the same.

1243
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:53,159
Speaker 5: Thing, right it is?

1244
01:13:55,039 --> 01:13:56,600
Speaker 6: Well, I mean this is a straight up and don't not.

1245
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 18: Being argued whether there's a logically possible world in which

1246
01:14:01,239 --> 01:14:05,560
UH and optocracy could exist at a RAT one model?

1247
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 5: Exactly right?

1248
01:14:08,239 --> 01:14:11,520
Speaker 6: But I think that if you think about it, then

1249
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,560
that's exactly what Eric was kind of trying to do,

1250
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,840
was set up an unfalsifiable model for the papacy. And

1251
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,960
I think that's what a lot of Romancolics.

1252
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 5: End up doing. What do you think that you just gave?

1253
01:14:24,279 --> 01:14:28,119
Speaker 6: Yeah, So basically it's like I don't have to worry

1254
01:14:28,239 --> 01:14:34,319
about all the positions or examples contra my position. All

1255
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:37,239
I have to do is give a case where you

1256
01:14:37,319 --> 01:14:41,920
could possibly read my example as Vatican one.

1257
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1258
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 18: Well, then, like you said, why not just flip it

1259
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,399
and say, well, I don't have to consider really any

1260
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,920
of your arguments, right, because all I have to do

1261
01:14:51,119 --> 01:14:55,520
is consider a logically possible world or possible reading in

1262
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,319
which yes, the papacy.

1263
01:14:58,000 --> 01:14:59,119
Speaker 5: Is false exactly.

1264
01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:03,319
Speaker 6: And this is I think why people like Eric does

1265
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:08,119
not have any idea about epistemology or logical fallacies at all.

1266
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,680
And if you've watched enough debates with Eric, you know,

1267
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,359
go back to our debate which Ubu later references, like

1268
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,039
Eric thinks that a debate is basically you just kind

1269
01:15:17,079 --> 01:15:20,000
of pile on a whole bunch of evidences, and if

1270
01:15:20,039 --> 01:15:23,319
you stack it up high enough, then it's possible to

1271
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,199
read your argumentation or your perspective into those examples.

1272
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:29,359
Speaker 5: But I don't think that works.

1273
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:31,359
Speaker 6: When if you go back to my debate with Eric,

1274
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:33,239
what I was trying to do was do a systemic

1275
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:37,600
level argument, where I said, Eric, if there's one dogmatic contradiction,

1276
01:15:38,319 --> 01:15:41,000
then the papal system's not true. It only takes one.

1277
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,600
But I don't think they think about things in a

1278
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,760
systemic way. They literally think of everything in this evidentialist,

1279
01:15:47,199 --> 01:15:49,800
stack it up kind of way. And that's why until

1280
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:53,479
they understand paradigm level arguments or tag or any of

1281
01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:55,039
that kind of stuff, like, they're just going to keep

1282
01:15:55,119 --> 01:15:59,319
floundering and thinking that stacking up a bunch of possible

1283
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,520
cases that could be read as Vatican one and just

1284
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:06,319
hand waiving all the counter examples is enough to make

1285
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,159
the Vatican one position possible. And you'll notice too that

1286
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:12,840
Eric has way walked back all the stuff he was

1287
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,600
arguing in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen. If you remember back

1288
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,520
to that time, Eric was arguing, as UBI pointed out

1289
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,760
at that time, that Pope Leo's tome is ex cathedral.

1290
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 5: Eric doesn't argue that anymore.

1291
01:16:25,079 --> 01:16:28,359
Speaker 6: He's walked all that back and conveniently doesn't talk about

1292
01:16:28,399 --> 01:16:29,720
the fact that he's walked all that back.

1293
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:33,319
Speaker 18: Go ahead, We'll have to give a credit to Eric, though.

1294
01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:41,680
I think he's found his kind of niche and knowing

1295
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:47,279
his audience and what people respond to and as far

1296
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:54,119
as trying to persuade is people. Yeah, most people don't

1297
01:16:54,239 --> 01:16:58,079
understand epistemology, logic and fallacies and stuff like that, and

1298
01:16:58,199 --> 01:17:00,000
it just goes over people's.

1299
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 5: Head when we go over that.

1300
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:08,079
Speaker 18: And so what Eric's found works is to do exactly

1301
01:17:08,159 --> 01:17:12,159
what he did exactly it looks it confuses people, but

1302
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:16,079
not confusing the people in the sense that like going

1303
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:21,760
over basic you know, kind of paradigmatic epistemological questions and

1304
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:26,680
stuff would confuse people. It confuses people that they don't

1305
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,199
see what he's the logic behind his arguments.

1306
01:17:30,199 --> 01:17:34,600
Speaker 6: Not it's terrible. It's a terrible line of argumentation.

1307
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 5: And again he throws.

1308
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:42,000
Speaker 18: Enough history and enough quotes in there, and I actually

1309
01:17:42,159 --> 01:17:45,319
have to say it works like it looks on the

1310
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:51,279
surface really good, like this guy's out doing all the

1311
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:54,119
Orthodox on this or something like that, because you just

1312
01:17:54,359 --> 01:17:58,000
stacked up enough you know, quotes and stuff like that,

1313
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:02,319
and so I think he's picked up on that.

1314
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 5: He knows what works.

1315
01:18:04,079 --> 01:18:08,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, the quote mind model will never cease

1316
01:18:08,159 --> 01:18:11,960
to be effective in duping mid to low tier observers

1317
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:15,720
for sure. All right, let's get to a little more.

1318
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,000
Let's get to Eric's opening statements, or we'll never get

1319
01:18:19,079 --> 01:18:19,319
through this.

1320
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:26,079
Speaker 4: Three things from mutually acceptable sources of Christian history. I'll

1321
01:18:26,119 --> 01:18:30,399
be restricting myself to three things. The ecumenical councils, the

1322
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:34,840
Church fathers venerated by East and West, and the expertise

1323
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:40,880
of scholarship, particularly Eastern Orthodox Byzantinists. My opponent Ubi Petrus

1324
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,319
takes the position that the Bishop of Rome indeed had

1325
01:18:44,359 --> 01:18:48,960
a universal primacy of real power and jurisdiction, but one

1326
01:18:49,279 --> 01:18:53,439
that is mediated and granted to him by canonical law.

1327
01:18:54,359 --> 01:18:57,119
When and if a pope appeared to be exercising legitimate

1328
01:18:57,159 --> 01:19:00,800
authority in the first millennium, UBI takes it as merely

1329
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:05,319
the prerogative that constitutional law gives to the heads of

1330
01:19:05,399 --> 01:19:10,159
a council. However, while it is true that popes often

1331
01:19:10,279 --> 01:19:14,720
acted as heads of councils, I argue this is a reductionism.

1332
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:18,760
This will be the crux of our debate. Before diving

1333
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,560
into the historical sources, let me ask this, what should

1334
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,920
we be looking for in history? Some think if the

1335
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:29,359
papacy is true, history would be filled with examples of

1336
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:35,720
absolute and unstoppable papal individualism, that is, the pope doing

1337
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:41,560
everything himself over and against everybody else. However, Pious Denith himself,

1338
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,359
the pope who presided over the First Vatican Council, did

1339
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:48,239
not believe that this was the logical result. In June

1340
01:19:48,279 --> 01:19:52,520
of eighteen seventy one, the year after Vatican I Pious

1341
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,439
the Ninth, except that the famous instruction of the Swiss Bishops.

1342
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:00,199
Speaker 6: Now I want to make one comment here, which is that,

1343
01:20:01,359 --> 01:20:07,399
for rhetorical purposes, this sounds plausible. I understand where Eric's going,

1344
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,279
and he's already kind of setting it up to where

1345
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:13,039
he's having He's saying, Look, maybe we don't have to

1346
01:20:13,119 --> 01:20:15,119
have a lot of examples of this in history, and

1347
01:20:15,199 --> 01:20:16,239
it can still be true.

1348
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:18,319
Speaker 5: But let's think about the logic of this.

1349
01:20:19,119 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 6: According to the argumentation of Attican One, the way that

1350
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:26,239
it presents its its approach to ecclesiology, and the way

1351
01:20:26,279 --> 01:20:30,199
that almost all the Roman Catholic apologists present their argumentation,

1352
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:33,359
their case is that this is so necessary to the

1353
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:36,520
governance of the Church that without this method or model

1354
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:42,159
or office being exercised, the church cannot maintain its fundamental unity.

1355
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:47,600
So remember that, because if that's the case, and it

1356
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,479
was not exercised clearly or done or utilized, even though

1357
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:53,720
the pope perhaps had this power in the first millennium,

1358
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:58,560
then it's still a gigantic failure to not exercise and

1359
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,640
use the power that is argued by Vatican One to

1360
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:04,640
be the very thing that guides and ensures the unity

1361
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,640
and preservation.

1362
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:06,319
Speaker 4: Of the Church.

1363
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:10,760
Speaker 6: So it's already a silly argument to say that just

1364
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:14,880
because it's not used doesn't mean it's not there.

1365
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 5: Well, if it wasn't used and it was there, then

1366
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:19,479
it failed.

1367
01:21:19,199 --> 01:21:22,319
Speaker 6: To do the thing that Vatican one says it's created

1368
01:21:22,399 --> 01:21:25,319
and there to do so even that is stupid. And

1369
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:28,960
by the way, we would expect that the Church, for example,

1370
01:21:29,079 --> 01:21:33,479
when it defines itself at Constantinople one, that it would

1371
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:37,840
include some notion of the governance and model of the

1372
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,880
church when it defined the church. But what does the

1373
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:44,439
Niceno constant Pologian creed say. It says one Holy Catholic

1374
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:48,840
and Apostolic Church, nothing about Peter, nothing about Rome. Why

1375
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:51,079
if Vatican one is true from all times, of the

1376
01:21:51,119 --> 01:21:55,159
earliest days, in all places, would there not be a

1377
01:21:55,399 --> 01:21:57,880
mention of Rome in its placed in the creed that

1378
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,439
the entire church is using for hundreds of years or

1379
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:00,880
a millennia.

1380
01:22:03,359 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 5: Well, it was a seed formed that grew into the tree,

1381
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:08,199
but it was always there.

1382
01:22:08,199 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just like they go back and forth

1383
01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:13,439
back and remember that's moving the goalposts. And remember that

1384
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,880
Vatican won. Pasture Attornis and Satis Cognetum of the of

1385
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:22,760
the thirteenth both say that the understanding of Vatican won

1386
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:25,479
because those are relative, those documents and those statements are

1387
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:29,279
Vatican won in relatives Vatican won that it was always

1388
01:22:29,359 --> 01:22:31,199
understood from the early days of the Church that this

1389
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:32,800
was the governance.

1390
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:33,279
Speaker 5: Model of the Church.

1391
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 6: Yet when challenged, as we've repeated this a million times,

1392
01:22:40,119 --> 01:22:42,960
when Romiic Catholck pap Apologist especially our challenge on this point,

1393
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:46,640
their retort is always, well, it was a seed form

1394
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,039
that grew into what we have today.

1395
01:22:49,359 --> 01:22:52,279
Speaker 5: It cannot be both. That is a mutually exclusive claim.

1396
01:22:52,359 --> 01:22:54,640
Speaker 6: It can't be the case it was always universally there

1397
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,039
and understood from the very beginning. And it wasn't always

1398
01:22:58,079 --> 01:23:00,399
there and clearly understood and utilized, and it root from

1399
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:00,920
a seed.

1400
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:01,239
Speaker 5: To a tree.

1401
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:05,600
Speaker 6: Those are mutually exclusive claims. Roman Catholics, So which one

1402
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:08,439
is it? And don't flip flop back and forth and

1403
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:11,000
move the goalpost between the two different positions and claims.

1404
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:16,319
Yet after however many years, I've been interacting with Roman

1405
01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:22,000
Catholic apologetics since two thousand and two, so twenty two

1406
01:23:22,119 --> 01:23:25,800
years of watching and looking at this domain, almost twenty three,

1407
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:29,560
and I've seen this flip flop back and so often

1408
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:34,560
that it just really gets old. I'm tired of this

1409
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:36,800
flip flopping back. Which one is?

1410
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:37,159
Speaker 7: It was?

1411
01:23:37,199 --> 01:23:38,039
Speaker 5: It always there?

1412
01:23:38,279 --> 01:23:41,119
Speaker 6: In a seed form. What does that even mean? It

1413
01:23:41,239 --> 01:23:43,359
was always there, he could have had it, but he

1414
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:44,159
just didn't do it.

1415
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:46,720
Speaker 5: Well. Then the papacy's a massive failure. It didn't do

1416
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:47,800
the thing it was supposed to do.

1417
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 4: Which made it clear that the pope, both before and

1418
01:23:52,279 --> 01:23:56,239
after backing one, is morally bound to work together with

1419
01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:59,680
his brother bishops and the government of the church when

1420
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:02,680
he is head of the CDF. Father Joseph Ratzinger said

1421
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:07,399
that the papacy and the episcopate is quote reciprocally related

1422
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:13,119
and inseparable close quote. If that is true, that should

1423
01:24:13,239 --> 01:24:17,760
influence our expectations as to what we should find in history.

1424
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:22,079
Speaker 6: We should now this is the move, This is him

1425
01:24:22,119 --> 01:24:24,640
setting up for papal minimalism. And the reason he can

1426
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:30,039
argue for papal minimalism is because Vatican two's ecclesiology imported

1427
01:24:30,319 --> 01:24:34,399
synidality and tried to so called balance out the claims

1428
01:24:34,399 --> 01:24:37,880
of Vatican I and so, as Ubi will later mention,

1429
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,800
there is a kind of dual ecclesiology going on in

1430
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:45,960
the Roman Catholic model, but that itself is a demonstration

1431
01:24:46,199 --> 01:24:48,560
that we don't need this and this is not the

1432
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:52,359
ancient model of the Church. There's not competing ecclesiologies in

1433
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:55,880
the church, especially if you believe in the divine governance

1434
01:24:55,960 --> 01:25:01,199
of the church. Did Jesus establish an ambiguous, unclear model

1435
01:25:01,279 --> 01:25:04,920
of ecclesiology to where, well, maybe in the first thousand

1436
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:08,560
years it's a cynidality and everybody's working together in collegiality,

1437
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:11,600
or maybe it's the papacy working together with collegiality. So

1438
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,760
Eric's just setting up a paple minimist position, which is

1439
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:19,960
trying to give a place to and trying to incorporate

1440
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,800
this snodal model, which, by the way, Tim Gordon has

1441
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:27,840
been bitching about for an entire year plus because he says,

1442
01:25:28,239 --> 01:25:33,079
this is the Vatican now conceding and giving up the papacy,

1443
01:25:33,159 --> 01:25:36,520
because it's gonna mean ultimately that women can be priests,

1444
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,119
and women can be degans, and women perhaps should be

1445
01:25:39,159 --> 01:25:41,359
included in the governance.

1446
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:41,479
Speaker 5: Of the church.

1447
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 6: Right, That's all Tim Gordon is fussed about for a

1448
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:48,520
year or two now, right, because that's where the Vatican

1449
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:51,840
two real novasort of ecclesiology is actually going. Tim's correct

1450
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:57,399
about that, But cynodality is a concession not just that

1451
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,960
Vatican two, but more recently in the Alexandria document, which

1452
01:26:01,159 --> 01:26:04,399
admits everything that we've been ninety percent of what Orthodox

1453
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:12,159
have been complaining about for a thousand years. I don't know,

1454
01:26:12,359 --> 01:26:16,319
I can't remember if they bring up CH eighty and

1455
01:26:16,359 --> 01:26:19,520
Alexandria or not. But the point is just that this

1456
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:23,439
is not actually a win for the position to say that, Okay,

1457
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:26,399
maybe Vatican one was an ultramontanist, so we're going to

1458
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:29,800
balance it out with collegiality and senidelity. Because wait a minute,

1459
01:26:30,119 --> 01:26:32,560
according to Tim Gordon and everything he's talking about with

1460
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:36,439
these Novasorto goblins, like collegiality and sinality for the Roman

1461
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:41,199
Catholic system means women being brought in, skittles stuff all

1462
01:26:41,239 --> 01:26:41,399
of this.

1463
01:26:42,279 --> 01:26:43,319
Speaker 5: Now, maybe Eric.

1464
01:26:43,279 --> 01:26:45,319
Speaker 6: Thinks that that's not true, but I mean, who would

1465
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:48,680
really believe that that the skittles stuff and the women

1466
01:26:49,079 --> 01:26:52,880
priests and deacons as if that's not coming right? I mean,

1467
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,720
and Tim Gordon's correct about that, But Tim Gordon is

1468
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:59,279
not correct about the idea. The fact that synodality and

1469
01:26:59,319 --> 01:27:03,399
collegiality is this huge liberal innovation. Liberals are using that

1470
01:27:03,479 --> 01:27:06,399
in the Nova sotosphere to bring women and skills in

1471
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:10,800
But cinidality and collegiality is the governance model of the

1472
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:14,039
Church in the first millennium, and that's what Chiatey and

1473
01:27:14,159 --> 01:27:19,119
Alexandria admit. And Iborro is trying to position himself as

1474
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:24,039
this I don't know, enlightened centrist kind of well, look

1475
01:27:24,119 --> 01:27:27,800
we got a kind of an ecclesiology over here of pope.

1476
01:27:28,119 --> 01:27:30,840
We got a kind of an ecclesiology over here of sininelity.

1477
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:34,800
And look already the pope said, he acknowledges the fact

1478
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:40,479
that there's a college of bishops. Well, giving me quotes

1479
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:45,720
and quote minds that the Pope and Vatican want recognize

1480
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,239
the college of bishop bishop has nothing to do with

1481
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:50,760
actually proving that the position is correct. That just shows me,

1482
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,000
perhaps that it's contradictory. But you'll notice after a million

1483
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:55,880
debates the Roman Catholics they do this all the time,

1484
01:27:55,960 --> 01:27:58,880
where if you call out an error, let's say intomism,

1485
01:27:59,359 --> 01:28:02,439
they're going far. The quote where Thomas says this, yeah,

1486
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:04,920
but that doesn't tell me that Aquinas is actually correct.

1487
01:28:05,199 --> 01:28:07,239
That just shows me that perhaps he's contradicting.

1488
01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 5: You say, not.

1489
01:28:09,039 --> 01:28:13,279
Speaker 4: Expect to see papal individualism in the texts of history,

1490
01:28:13,399 --> 01:28:17,840
But rather a normal conjoining of pope and his brother

1491
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:24,079
bishops head in members, with the added detail that the

1492
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:28,760
pope's authority rests upon foundations that clearly display that he

1493
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:33,199
was given unique and singular privileges to govern by divine

1494
01:28:33,279 --> 01:28:37,960
right from Christ through succession from the apostle. Peter, therefore,

1495
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:42,600
simply demonstrating the concilior or sinodal procedure of the church

1496
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,199
in the first millennium will not suffice to subtract from

1497
01:28:46,279 --> 01:28:48,760
my thesis. Now let's dive into the history.

1498
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:56,359
Speaker 6: But Eric, if the church's praxis are actually against the paphacy,

1499
01:28:57,079 --> 01:29:00,840
then it would subtract from the thesis. So he's already

1500
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:04,680
set it up to where just because there's collegiality or

1501
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:09,000
sinidality doesn't necessarily contradict the papacy. Yeah, but nobody was

1502
01:29:09,039 --> 01:29:11,720
making the argument that all I have to show is

1503
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,119
that there are synods and councils in that disprose of papacy. Well,

1504
01:29:15,279 --> 01:29:18,680
what if we show that synods and councils reject and

1505
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:23,119
depose and excommunicate popes as will actually be shown in

1506
01:29:23,199 --> 01:29:26,560
the debate and will actually silence Ebara At one point.

1507
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 4: I'll be looking at four things number one the Council

1508
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,800
of Chalcedon, Number two the formula of Hormestas, and number

1509
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:39,159
three the three Chapters Controversy, and four a note on

1510
01:29:39,279 --> 01:29:44,199
the schism between Pope Simachus and anti Pope Laurentius. In

1511
01:29:44,319 --> 01:29:46,720
the events leading up to Calcedon, we see a Greek

1512
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:50,960
archie mandrit Utichs and his Sonodal Accusers, appealing to Rome

1513
01:29:51,039 --> 01:29:55,039
for a verdict on Apostolic Christology, to which Pope Leo

1514
01:29:55,119 --> 01:29:58,520
the Great issued his famous tone Divine, defining the two

1515
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:04,640
natures of Christ with terminology of papal supremacy. Leo claimed

1516
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:08,680
that because Christ made the apostle Peter to share in

1517
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:12,640
his own authority to govern the universal Church, the person

1518
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:19,079
of Peter's successor inherits immediately divine authorization to bindingly teach

1519
01:30:19,159 --> 01:30:22,199
the universal Church. Leo claimed that his tone was the

1520
01:30:22,319 --> 01:30:26,279
final word that could not be revised and would serve

1521
01:30:26,359 --> 01:30:31,960
as the sole condition for saving communion. Long before he

1522
01:30:32,079 --> 01:30:35,720
obtained the agreement of the whole Church at Chalcedon, he wrote, quote,

1523
01:30:36,279 --> 01:30:40,800
whoever departs from Peter's confession, that is the judgment of

1524
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:45,840
Peter's successor, has no part in the mystical building that

1525
01:30:46,119 --> 01:30:50,760
is the Church of Christ. Close quote. Vasily Bolotov, a

1526
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:55,159
nineteenth century Russian Orthodox scholar and a Great Church historian.

1527
01:30:55,199 --> 01:31:01,239
According to Father Georges Florovsky states that in Leo quote,

1528
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:05,880
all the Roman prerogatives of supremacy are to be found

1529
01:31:06,119 --> 01:31:09,760
exactly as they have been defined by the Council of

1530
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:11,199
the Vatican close quote.

1531
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:18,279
Speaker 6: Now this is interesting because this model of Eric pulling

1532
01:31:18,359 --> 01:31:22,119
from a bunch of Russian Orthodox and Orthodox historians and

1533
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:27,279
what do you call him Byzantinists, is probably an effective

1534
01:31:27,319 --> 01:31:30,520
strategy for debate. But the problem is that Eric is

1535
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,640
kind of leaving out the fact that all of these

1536
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:36,600
people that he's quoting don't believe the Roman Catholic position.

1537
01:31:37,359 --> 01:31:39,479
So in other words, yeah, you could say you could

1538
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:46,920
find people that concede, let's say, Pope Leo or you know,

1539
01:31:47,039 --> 01:31:50,600
even later popes, said Gregular the Great. Perhaps they had

1540
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:54,760
an expanded idea of what their jurisdiction and their abilities were,

1541
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:57,920
but that doesn't mean that it's correct. And this was

1542
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:00,279
the thing that Eric did in my debate with him,

1543
01:32:00,319 --> 01:32:03,680
if you remember, he would say, what about Pope so

1544
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,159
and so over here he seemed to think he had

1545
01:32:06,239 --> 01:32:11,039
this power. Well, in an Orthodox paradigm, I could just

1546
01:32:11,079 --> 01:32:15,159
simply say he got something wrong, he wasn't correct. The

1547
01:32:15,239 --> 01:32:17,279
fact that he did that doesn't mean that it was

1548
01:32:17,399 --> 01:32:20,960
therefore acceptable, correct and true. So it's almost like in

1549
01:32:21,039 --> 01:32:24,439
the Roman Catholic position, they will argue that if a pope.

1550
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:26,199
And by the way, we argue and we think that

1551
01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:30,600
this evolved and grew over time, right the papal prerogatives.

1552
01:32:31,159 --> 01:32:33,680
By the time of the eleventh century, with Gregory the

1553
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:37,800
Great gre growing reforms, it gets totally outlandish into full

1554
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:41,159
on quezas hyderak God in Perland. And we've shown that

1555
01:32:41,399 --> 01:32:45,800
many times with Unum Sanctum and with Dictatus Pope Unumsangtem's

1556
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:49,439
thirteen eighty two. But Diktatus Pope is eleventh century, and

1557
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:51,520
that's where the pope doesn't just say that he has

1558
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:54,439
all of these spiritual prerogatives of universality and you have

1559
01:32:54,479 --> 01:32:56,000
to be in commune with him to be saved. He

1560
01:32:56,079 --> 01:32:58,960
actually says you have to believe in the temporal supremacy,

1561
01:32:59,039 --> 01:33:02,880
that the pope is a world emperor to be saved. Okay,

1562
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:05,479
And I don't know why Romancallics can't understand this argument.

1563
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:09,880
I've made it abundantly clear countless times. Every time I

1564
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:13,640
say this, they think I'm saying Unum Sanctum said you

1565
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:15,439
got to be in commune with the pope to be saved.

1566
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:18,920
But Vardika too qualified that that's not the argument. The

1567
01:33:19,039 --> 01:33:23,000
argument is that Unum sung them also says to be saved,

1568
01:33:23,039 --> 01:33:26,159
you must believe in the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop.

1569
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:28,560
Maybe they don't know what that is because Vatican too,

1570
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:30,640
Roman Catholicism no longer.

1571
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 5: Holds to that.

1572
01:33:31,279 --> 01:33:34,039
Speaker 6: But in the Middle Ages, the pope was an emperor,

1573
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:39,359
literally a world emperor, and his prerogatives were such as dictatus.

1574
01:33:39,399 --> 01:33:43,079
Poppy lays out. This became very controversial with many state

1575
01:33:43,279 --> 01:33:45,680
rulers in Europe.

1576
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:48,119
Speaker 5: Many of them didn't like this.

1577
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 6: Some of them went to war with the papacy. If

1578
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:57,319
you go watch the Borgias TV show with Jeremy Irons

1579
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:01,479
where he's playing Alexander the sixth, it's actually correct, where

1580
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:05,239
at one point he says, I have standing armies. If

1581
01:34:05,279 --> 01:34:08,760
you do not fight for me, I excommunicate you. That

1582
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:11,840
is nowhere in the first thousand years of the Church. Obviously,

1583
01:34:12,279 --> 01:34:16,279
anyone with any ounce of intellectual honesty can realize, as

1584
01:34:16,359 --> 01:34:18,720
I argued, recently. I think you guys saw this debate

1585
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,239
that I had with the you know, friendly civil Roman

1586
01:34:22,279 --> 01:34:26,840
Catholic guy the other day for his name, but I've

1587
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:30,119
made multiple videos on this. Now remember this guy, what

1588
01:34:30,239 --> 01:34:30,680
was his name?

1589
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:42,039
Speaker 5: Where is it at? Chris plants?

1590
01:34:42,399 --> 01:34:49,079
Speaker 6: Okay, we had this friendly hour fifteen minute discussion over

1591
01:34:49,199 --> 01:34:52,199
this topic. And you know, not to be mean to Chris,

1592
01:34:52,319 --> 01:34:54,800
but it's almost like it took Chris an hour to

1593
01:34:55,199 --> 01:34:58,800
understand what I was arguing. I'm not talking about Unham

1594
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:00,720
Sanctim's claim that you have to be in cumunit with

1595
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:03,039
the Rome to be saved. I'm talking about the claim

1596
01:35:03,079 --> 01:35:05,920
that you have to believe in the temporal supremacy of

1597
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:08,520
the Roman bishop to be saved, a view which is

1598
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:11,199
no longer taught post Vatican Two. There is no Roman

1599
01:35:11,239 --> 01:35:13,560
Catholic I've ever heard, except for weird tradcats who are

1600
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:16,800
like point oh one percent who actually still say that

1601
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:18,920
you have to believe in the temporal supremacy the Roman

1602
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:19,720
Bishop to be saved.

1603
01:35:20,079 --> 01:35:20,319
Speaker 5: Okay.

1604
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 6: Obviously, the teachings about freedom of conscience and freedom of worships,

1605
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:29,640
worship and religious liberty in Vatican two discard this idea

1606
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:30,479
of the Middle Ages.

1607
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:32,600
Speaker 5: Obviously, and only.

1608
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:36,600
Speaker 6: The weirdest dishonest creeps on the Internet would try to maintain.

1609
01:35:37,119 --> 01:35:39,399
Uh No, Actually, the Vatican still does teach that you

1610
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:41,760
have to believe in temporrel's supremacy, even though they've taken

1611
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:44,119
off their triple crown hat. So the pub doesn't wear

1612
01:35:44,199 --> 01:35:47,840
his triple crown hat anymore, which signifies this power they

1613
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:54,359
gave it to the un or whatever. But you've still

1614
01:35:54,399 --> 01:35:56,079
got romancality trying to argue this position.

1615
01:35:56,800 --> 01:35:58,000
Speaker 5: Anyway. How did I get off on this?

1616
01:35:58,279 --> 01:36:01,000
Speaker 6: I'm way off course here, But the point is that

1617
01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:05,439
like Eric is acting like this isn't true, I actually

1618
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:07,920
think this kind of stuff is way more devastating to

1619
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,039
the papacy than these quote minds of trying to find

1620
01:36:11,239 --> 01:36:14,039
like really obscure references to where a pope says he

1621
01:36:14,119 --> 01:36:16,960
has all this authority. Okay, good, So what in the

1622
01:36:17,079 --> 01:36:19,279
Orthodox position, by the way, and the Roman Kelly position.

1623
01:36:20,199 --> 01:36:22,560
You don't believe everything that pope says. Even the Roman

1624
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,319
Catholics don't believe everything the pope's say and teach. So

1625
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:27,279
the fact that he finds a quote here or there

1626
01:36:27,319 --> 01:36:30,680
where there's an evolving, expansive claim of the Roman bishop

1627
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:33,680
to have more and more power, which culminates in the

1628
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:35,880
eleventh century where they're going reforms of the pope. Being

1629
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,960
a world emperor doesn't prove anything unless you presuppose the

1630
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:44,600
papal position to begin with Eric, That's what's so frustrating

1631
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:46,199
about Eric. And if you go back and watch my

1632
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:51,479
debate with Eric from twenty eighteen, he never understood a

1633
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:55,079
paradigm level, system level critique.

1634
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:57,680
Speaker 5: And still doesn't.

1635
01:36:58,199 --> 01:37:03,560
Speaker 6: And one of my commenters in the community tab let

1636
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:05,560
me see if I can find it. Long time an

1637
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:07,960
excellent comment or TL Chikody or whatever his name is.

1638
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:10,319
He had a great comment. I think he laid it

1639
01:37:10,359 --> 01:37:12,439
out perfectly. Let me read what he said. He said

1640
01:37:13,319 --> 01:37:15,600
he always has some of the best takes. Maybe it's

1641
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:19,880
on this other it's on the debate itself, he says.

1642
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,800
I donh no, I can't find it. He basically said,

1643
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:33,239
you know, we're seven years into this and Eric has

1644
01:37:33,279 --> 01:37:37,239
still never understood a paradigm level critique. But you know,

1645
01:37:37,319 --> 01:37:39,560
I haven't listened to the debate I did with Eric

1646
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:44,680
in a long time, and it seemed to remember him

1647
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:47,479
even at saying at one point in the debate, yes, Jay,

1648
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:52,039
I do concede that if you could demonstrate a dogmatic contradiction,

1649
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:56,399
it would negate the papal position. I think he said,

1650
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:58,319
I mean, I'm going for memory. Maybe he didn't say that,

1651
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:01,079
but I seem to remember I'm saying something like that

1652
01:38:01,199 --> 01:38:05,319
in our debate. And if that's the case, then that's

1653
01:38:05,399 --> 01:38:09,319
precisely why I would argue the paradigm level dogmatic contradiction position.

1654
01:38:09,399 --> 01:38:11,600
And if you want one of the clearest, easiest examples,

1655
01:38:12,399 --> 01:38:15,560
it is this argument that the papacy used to claim

1656
01:38:16,399 --> 01:38:18,199
that to be saved, you have to believe in its

1657
01:38:18,279 --> 01:38:20,439
temporal supremacy, meaning that you.

1658
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:24,319
Speaker 5: Have to accept its world emperor status. That's what that means.

1659
01:38:24,359 --> 01:38:26,640
Speaker 6: For those who don't don't know what the world temporal means,

1660
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,000
that just means that authority in the physical No, it

1661
01:38:31,159 --> 01:38:34,079
means in the state realm. And the Canons of Chalcedon,

1662
01:38:34,119 --> 01:38:36,039
as I brought up to Chris Plants in our debate,

1663
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:41,000
explicitly forbid all clerics from civil state positions. So how

1664
01:38:41,159 --> 01:38:42,520
is the pope going to be a world emperor and

1665
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:47,199
have armies if you want to cite Chalcedon, Well, the

1666
01:38:47,239 --> 01:38:50,239
Pope's not bound by the canons of the Councils well then,

1667
01:38:50,279 --> 01:38:52,000
how was the excommunicated by the Six Council.

1668
01:38:52,119 --> 01:38:53,760
Speaker 5: By the way, that will be one of the.

1669
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 6: Key places where it borrow falters hard in two places,

1670
01:38:58,279 --> 01:39:01,079
and we're going to see those. And imagine if Ubi

1671
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:03,319
I don't think it would be faltered. He was a

1672
01:39:03,399 --> 01:39:06,159
little unaggressive in the first half. The second half he

1673
01:39:06,239 --> 01:39:10,039
got more aggressive. But imagine if an Orthodox apologist or

1674
01:39:10,079 --> 01:39:11,119
debater had said.

1675
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,079
Speaker 5: I just don't know to it today and I ain't

1676
01:39:14,119 --> 01:39:17,319
got no sufficient explanation yet, the.

1677
01:39:17,399 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 6: Romancolic world would be denounced. Well, they'd be going crazy, announcing.

1678
01:39:21,399 --> 01:39:25,239
Speaker 5: The end of Orthodoxy is here. The Roman Catholic Orthodox

1679
01:39:25,279 --> 01:39:27,039
apologists have completely capitulated.

1680
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:30,359
Speaker 6: And yet barn I can say this like multiple times,

1681
01:39:31,079 --> 01:39:32,960
I don't know, get so.

1682
01:39:33,159 --> 01:39:33,399
Speaker 10: Just do.

1683
01:39:35,039 --> 01:39:36,640
Speaker 6: And they're just like, ah, yeah, well, well he gets a.

1684
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:37,199
Speaker 5: Pass, right.

1685
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:45,680
Speaker 4: Another twentieth century Russian Orthodox academic Archbishop Fyodor Potzivski.

1686
01:39:46,319 --> 01:39:49,399
Speaker 15: All right, folks, it is time for our absolute biggest

1687
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:51,600
deal of the year on Daily Wire plus.

1688
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 3: That is fifty five zero.

1689
01:39:56,399 --> 01:39:59,479
Speaker 4: Who contributed notable works on the Church fathers to the Musque.

1690
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:04,079
Speaker 6: So now he's citing like random Russian historians. I've never

1691
01:40:04,119 --> 01:40:05,920
gonna I mean I've read a lot of Orthodox theology.

1692
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:08,079
I've never even heard of this guy. Not that he's

1693
01:40:08,119 --> 01:40:10,439
not a record. It's just funny that like Eric's going

1694
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:14,840
to these really obscure figures. I mean, perhaps this random

1695
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:17,680
Russian Orthodox historian is like a super Acumenist. I don't know,

1696
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:20,720
we don't know, right, because he's pulling from kind of

1697
01:40:21,279 --> 01:40:24,680
random Orthodox historians. I mean, okay, well, who is this

1698
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:26,880
person in the like, what's his position?

1699
01:40:27,079 --> 01:40:31,560
Speaker 4: All Theological Academy said that the ecclesiology of Vatican one

1700
01:40:32,319 --> 01:40:37,560
can be quote deduced from Leo's system by purely logical

1701
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:38,600
means close quote.

1702
01:40:39,039 --> 01:40:45,199
Speaker 6: He also, but again, unless this orthodox Russian Orthodox historian

1703
01:40:45,239 --> 01:40:49,600
is super Acumenist, Eric, the fact that they're saying that

1704
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:53,439
people can deduce and derive this does not make it true.

1705
01:40:54,000 --> 01:40:58,800
And they also, as Orthodox, presumably don't believe in the

1706
01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:02,840
positions that are being out line supposedly from Leo. Now, again,

1707
01:41:03,039 --> 01:41:05,680
keep in mind that Eric has tried to prop up

1708
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:09,119
this Leo argument since twenty eighteen, which eventually he ended

1709
01:41:09,199 --> 01:41:11,239
up walking back. I don't have Eric's book, so I

1710
01:41:11,279 --> 01:41:14,159
don't know if he's still using this argument or what.

1711
01:41:15,119 --> 01:41:17,640
But in twenty eighteen nineteen, he tried to argue that

1712
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:21,439
the tone of Leo was proof that the popes of

1713
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,560
this time were utilizing ex cathedral. It sounds like he's

1714
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:28,520
still trying to utilize this argument. So I'm going to

1715
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,960
give you ubi's response to this argument that the tone

1716
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,319
of Leo was supposedly ex cathedral. And also UBI has

1717
01:41:35,399 --> 01:41:37,560
a video because I know everybody in the chat is

1718
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:56,399
pretty lazy, they're probably not going to read, and this

1719
01:41:56,720 --> 01:42:00,359
is the video that was made for ubi's ch all

1720
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:04,319
in response to this pretty recently. I think this is

1721
01:42:04,359 --> 01:42:06,960
the full video that's been released. So here is the

1722
01:42:07,119 --> 01:42:09,680
full response of UBI. Because I don't know in ubi's

1723
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:11,840
opening statement yet whether he will actually get to all

1724
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:15,960
of this, but it's sort of like, is this really

1725
01:42:15,960 --> 01:42:19,119
where Eric's going, Like the arguments that he walked away

1726
01:42:19,199 --> 01:42:21,199
from and tried to walk back, and now he's going

1727
01:42:21,279 --> 01:42:22,239
to try to prop that up.

1728
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:28,119
Speaker 4: Maybe let's say stated that juridical immunity and papal infallibility,

1729
01:42:28,319 --> 01:42:33,600
while logically deducible in Leo, was manifest in his successors,

1730
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:39,119
Pope Galassius Hormisdas and Agatho the Great, each venerated by

1731
01:42:39,159 --> 01:42:43,960
the Orthodox Church the Late Olivier Clemone, who was professor

1732
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:47,319
of Church history at the Saint Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute,

1733
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:51,199
wrote that Leo's tome in the thought of Leo quote

1734
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:56,000
was itself decisive and that the council simply must ratify

1735
01:42:56,039 --> 01:43:00,520
it close quote. Clemente sees Leo simply echoing his predecessor,

1736
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:05,079
quote Celestine, who reminded the Ecumenical Council of ephicis that

1737
01:43:05,239 --> 01:43:08,319
quote Christ established Peter as the foundation of the church

1738
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:12,640
close quote, and that quote Peter continued to be present

1739
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,039
in his successors close quote. The papal legates at that

1740
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:20,960
council said, Peter quote forever both lives and judges in

1741
01:43:21,119 --> 01:43:22,439
his successors close quo.

1742
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:25,840
Speaker 6: Just another thing I'd like to add again here is

1743
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:28,199
that you know this sounds like, okay, well wait a minute.

1744
01:43:28,319 --> 01:43:33,079
So if there was an evolving, expansive idea of the

1745
01:43:33,199 --> 01:43:35,760
prerogatives of the Roman Sea and the Bishop of Rome,

1746
01:43:36,039 --> 01:43:39,680
that in our view took many centuries and yeah, you

1747
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:44,800
you you probably had this growing consensus or this growing

1748
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:48,199
idea in the Roman Sea about what they could do

1749
01:43:48,279 --> 01:43:50,199
and what they had, which, by the way, it gets

1750
01:43:50,239 --> 01:43:52,079
propped up by forgeries pretty quickly.

1751
01:43:52,159 --> 01:43:53,079
Speaker 5: After this time period.

1752
01:43:54,319 --> 01:43:57,399
Speaker 6: This still doesn't mean that it's so. And let me

1753
01:43:57,439 --> 01:44:00,439
give you another example of this. In say, the first

1754
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:04,720
sixth century seventh centuries of the Church, there are all

1755
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:09,479
manner of different lists of the Bible canon. There are

1756
01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:13,119
differing lists amongst Eastern fathers versus Latin fathers. There are

1757
01:44:13,199 --> 01:44:15,840
differing lists of the New Testament books. There's differing lists

1758
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:18,520
of the Old Testament books all the way up to

1759
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:22,279
John Damascus, Saint John Damascus, who actually thought that Clement

1760
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:26,680
was part of the canon. So the fact that you

1761
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:32,079
find historical examples does not mean that it's true. And

1762
01:44:32,199 --> 01:44:36,039
in fact, even late in the game, many church fathers

1763
01:44:36,079 --> 01:44:40,680
and saints were wrong about the canon of scripture. And

1764
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:43,840
so if they can be wrong about that, And even

1765
01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:48,159
the Roman Catholic position admits that you don't follow one

1766
01:44:48,359 --> 01:44:52,239
saint or even one pope per se, maybe you do.

1767
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:58,000
But even if Gregory the Great at one point says,

1768
01:44:58,039 --> 01:45:00,800
for example, that let's say, for for the sake of argument,

1769
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:04,720
that he believes that he has authority beyond what perhaps

1770
01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:08,760
his predecessors thought Rome had, does that mean that it's true.

1771
01:45:10,239 --> 01:45:13,960
All it means is that there was an evolving self

1772
01:45:14,079 --> 01:45:19,479
consciousness about what Rome thought they could do. It doesn't

1773
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:23,880
therefore mean that it's true, and it also doesn't demonstrate

1774
01:45:24,159 --> 01:45:28,359
the autocracy position, which Ubi will later ask Eric to

1775
01:45:28,399 --> 01:45:30,920
give an example of. And that's why the Leo Tome

1776
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:36,359
example becomes such a hot contentious topic. But again, if

1777
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:42,520
the Roman see itself is excommunicated and taken out by

1778
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:48,039
an ecumenical council, which Eric will admit, that's a defeater

1779
01:45:48,279 --> 01:45:52,399
for the position that Rome always had this power and

1780
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:55,680
it was the universal consciouness of the Church. And so

1781
01:45:56,159 --> 01:45:58,880
Eric again thinks and has had to reframe the debate

1782
01:45:59,079 --> 01:46:02,279
to where he doesn't have to deal with counterexamples. He

1783
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:04,600
only has to give this or that example up