WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.839 Main in a live Man like this, Man, you letting 2 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.559 butterfly flapping his wing dig down in the forest. Man, 3 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:11.080 it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, 4 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:20.600 nobody seen, nobody, You don't even know. Man. You a 5 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:25.359 little story and you got that. Man. Man don't like 6 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:27.800 a dang on the panel? Mann matter? 7 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:40.759 Man all right after uh after much fanfare. Really, people 8 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:45.079 will not shut up about getting this episode out. Thomas, 9 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:47.079 Welcome back to The Jay Burdon Show. It's good to 10 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:47.479 have you. Man. 11 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:49.520 Yeah, thanks for hosting me. 12 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:53.039 Yeah, of course you know I'm joking. I'm glad that 13 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:56.640 people have been enjoying this series covering the West Memphis three. 14 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.000 But we're back to sort of resume where we left off, 15 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:02.640 So I'll kick it to you, Thomas. 16 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:11.840 What's most significant in terms of the case against the 17 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.040 West Memphis three Just an evidentiary terms we were talking 18 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:21.519 about before went live. Obviously, an admission by a party 19 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:24.879 opponent in the form of a confession, in this case, 20 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:32.680 multiple confessions, that carries more evidentiary weight really than anything 21 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:38.719 other than direct evidence, you know, direct eyewitness testimony, and 22 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:43.959 the people who advocate for the innocence of the West 23 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:49.879 Memphis three. Really the core of their narrative. The defense's 24 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:54.719 case in chief, in a rebuttal if you will, is 25 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:59.319 that Jesse mus Kelly's mentally disabled and he was coerced 26 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.519 into confess by the police who were depriving him of 27 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:13.199 counsel and frightening him and providing him essentially with testimony 28 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.960 they expected him to parrot in order to incriminate himself. Well, 29 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.800 there's a few things to understand about cours confessions. They 30 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:30.159 absolutely do happen, but there's a pattern that develops there. Generally, 31 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.840 they happen in the absence of circumstantial or direct evidence. 32 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:42.680 That wasn't the case here, And almost without exception, the 33 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:48.159 defendant immediately begins retracting his statement and insisting that he 34 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:57.319 was coerced. Miss Kelly confessed repeatedly on record. He confessed 35 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:03.520 to his attorneys, He confessed to the sheriff's deputies escorting 36 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:08.560 to prison after it was convicted. He confessed to acquaintances, 37 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:15.159 he confessed to cellmates. You know, you can't get away 38 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.439 from you can't get around this, you know, And I 39 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:26.319 think it's a matter of people watch the documentary The 40 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:35.080 Brolinger in a Sinovsky documentary, they take that at face value, 41 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.599 and they don't dig into the trial record, and they 42 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:45.879 don't dig into the the offers a proof. They just say, oh, 43 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.319 if he confessed repeatedly, he was being coerced. No, we're 44 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:57.479 talking about discreete occurrences months apart under totally different conditions. 45 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:06.240 And on top of that, and I'm gonna this is 46 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.639 the caveat. There's some really disturbing testimony I'm gonna get 47 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:14.800 into that's disgusting, that deals with the sensual abuse and 48 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:19.480 murder of children. If that anything bothers you, I'm gonna 49 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.160 I'm gonna we're dak language that I don't embarrass myself 50 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.000 for anybody else, But it's a pretty horrible subject matter. 51 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.920 To just be aware that you may want to skip 52 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:32.040 over this or or tune out if if that upsets you. 53 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:43.240 I also wanted to know, just as for foundational purposes. 54 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:53.600 The overarching narrative of West Memphis three innocence advocates is 55 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.240 that marrying in West Memphis was this town of religious 56 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.920 this community religious fundamentalists who were bigoted Holy rollers, who 57 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:09.199 were terrified of this phantasm of occultism, and they persecuted 58 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.720 these teenage boys we've established that. Well, I can't remember 59 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:18.240 some data, and to Gary Mees's credit, he he corralled this. 60 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:25.519 The county where Maryon and West Memphis are located is 61 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:35.920 Crittenden County, and as of nineteen ninety, the percentage of 62 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.360 the population of Crittenden County that declared an affiliation with 63 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:45.800 a religious congregation was well blown the national average. The 64 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:49.800 statistical profile was forty one point seven percent compared to 65 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.120 a national average of fifty point two percent. This was 66 00:05:55.160 --> 00:06:00.519 also a community that was sustained by the interstate So yes, 67 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.399 it was poor, it was southern. It was not what 68 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:09.879 you'd call a cosmopolitan have a culture. But in interstate 69 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.920 towns like this, gambling's big, prostitution's big, drugs are big. 70 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:21.480 You got all kinds of transient people, and religion actually 71 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.720 isn't a big thing there. It's again below the national average. 72 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:34.160 Now America is so large the meaning of those averages 73 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:38.920 can be diluted. But when we're talking about it discrete 74 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:45.160 allegation that this community was characterized by some sort of 75 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.720 extreme religiosity that was well outside the norm. That's now 76 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:56.519 that's a confabulation, just outright, you know, And I made 77 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:06.519 the point before we went live, A lot was made 78 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:15.120 to the fact that the state and establishing foundation for motive. 79 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:23.560 Evidence of motive plan design is admissible because it's relevant. 80 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:26.759 The state never needs to prove motive as an element 81 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:34.720 of the offense, but obviously it's factually relevant. You know. Again, 82 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:44.839 there were the trappings of occult belief structures surrounding this 83 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:54.439 crime scene, the testimony of people who knew echoes and 84 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:57.560 who heard his illusions and in some cases are right 85 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:05.120 confessions to the crimes he identified as an occultist, and 86 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:15.240 the police and the state's attorney's office proffered experts on 87 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.079 occult crime. And this was held out in the Paradise 88 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:23.279 Lost movie. As see this police department was so out 89 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:27.279 of it and crazy they had an occult crime staff. Well, 90 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.799 so did Chicago PD, so did the NYPD, so did LAPD. 91 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.519 These days, whether it's one officer or one hundred officer. 92 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.159 As a sign of that detail, they'd refer to it 93 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:49.320 as as security threat group investigations that would entail everything 94 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:56.519 from gangs to non state actors and political terrorist groups 95 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:07.879 to cult organizations that are involved in criminal or raggeteering activity. 96 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:22.799 It's a broad pnumber of of behaviors and structures. It's 97 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.240 not merely you know, satanic crime or something an ad order, 98 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:36.080 but the other as it may. The most significant confessions 99 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.799 mss kelly confessions. He confessed on February fourth, nineteen ninety four. 100 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:48.039 This was after his arrest. Okay, not not even addressing 101 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.000 his custodial arrest. I'll accept that that's not a legitimate confession. 102 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:53.720 I don't believe that to be the case. I think 103 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:57.960 it satisfies all the criteria of due process. But making 104 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:05.000 that concession the defense, let's redact that entirely. So we've 105 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.720 got three confessions here. We've got a confession on February fourth, 106 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.919 nineteen ninety four. We've got a confession on February eighth, 107 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.440 nineteen ninety four. We got a confession on February seventeenth, 108 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:26.360 nineteen ninety four. Now, the February fourth confession came to 109 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:36.120 light a Shero's deputy named John Moody. In transporting miss 110 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:42.879 Kelly post conviction. Immediately post conviction to the Arkansas Department 111 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:51.240 of Corrections, he contacted Gary Gotchell, who was the homicide 112 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:56.080 inspector of the West Memphis Police Department. Now this is 113 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:01.159 relevant to miss Kelly was. These were Clay County Sheriff's deputies, 114 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:06.639 not Crittenden County. Because miss Kelly's trial had been removed 115 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.440 from Crittenden County by defense motion. They asked for a 116 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:15.480 change of venue, alleging that miss Kelly would be prejudiced 117 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.120 in Critinin County, like the potential jury pool would be 118 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.360 tainted against them, and they got that motion granted. So supposedly, 119 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.559 again the state's trying to frame up miss Kelly, but 120 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.840 they're granting defense motions to remove the trial, you know. 121 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:33.559 And this was pre Internet, So these Clay County jurors 122 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:38.600 they were, they were they prejudiced against him too, because 123 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:43.240 they're taken in by satanic panic. But that's relevant, it's material, 124 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:49.600 it's not just a matter of trivia. So this Clay 125 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:55.879 County Sheriff's deputy, and this was validated by a deputy 126 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:59.480 James Lindsay, who was with this officer named of John 127 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:05.399 Moody on the afternoon at February fourth. This is John 128 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:14.879 Moody's testimony that he wrote to uh Giggell on the 129 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.639 anting of February fourth, nineteen ninety four. Deputy James Lindsay 130 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.799 and myself for transferring Jesse miss Kelly to Arkansas Department 131 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:25.320 of Corrections At Pine Bluff. Jesse was asked if there's 132 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:28.399 anything he wanted to say. After being assured we could 133 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.360 not use anything he said against him in court, he 134 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.639 chose to talk. Jason advised he had received a call 135 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:40.080 from Jason Baldwin. This is speaking on the date of 136 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.840 the murders. May fifth, nineteen ninety three. Jesse advised he'd 137 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.039 received a call from Jason Baldwin ask him if he 138 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.039 wanted to go to West Memphis to quote get some girls. Jesse, Damien, 139 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.600 and Jason met on a local road on May fifth. 140 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.440 Sometime in the evening, Jesse claimed that he'd been drinking 141 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:01.000 Evan Williams whiskey. This becomes material that he was drinking 142 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.919 Evan Williams, Jesse clan had been drinking Evan Williams whiskey, 143 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.639 and that a Missus Hutchinson had bought him and Jason 144 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:12.600 and Damien beer and whiskey. Jason and Damon were drinking beer. 145 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.360 Jesse also stated that they had smoked two marijuana joints 146 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.440 that afternoon. Jesse said that he had known Jason Baldwin 147 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.200 since the sixth grade and did not know Damien that well, 148 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:29.639 but that Damien would drink human blood. Jesse stated that 149 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.080 after all meeting on the road, the three boys walked 150 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:40.039 to the woods and were sitting in the water. Three 151 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.879 young boys were seen from a distance when Damien told 152 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.279 Jesse and Jason to hide. Jesse said they were hiding 153 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.159 behind bushy is when Damien grabbed Michael Moore, one of 154 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:54.000 the young boys. The two other young boys started hitting 155 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.639 Damien trying to help their friend, and this is what 156 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:00.679 Jesse and Jason jumped out and helped Damien beat them. 157 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.279 Jesse advised he helped hold them and beat them, but 158 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:06.799 had no part in raping or killing them. Jesse advised 159 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.360 two of the boys were raped and that Jesse and 160 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:15.120 Jason were taking turns beating the two boys. Jesse said 161 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.919 the two boys were still alive at this time. Jesse 162 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.159 said the boys were kept quiet by putting hands over 163 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:23.000 their mouths, and that Jason and Damian had to use 164 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.720 their shirts and that at times their face was pushed 165 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.039 down into the ground. Used their shirts for It's not clear, 166 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.440 but he means to gag them, Jesse was asked. So 167 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:39.440 the boys were kept under control while being raped and 168 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.279 not tied yet, and he stated, quote, they were like 169 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.240 puppies when he whoop a puppy and tell it to 170 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.799 stay at will. Jesse did say that he had to 171 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.519 catch Michael Moore, but did not say at what point. 172 00:14:52.440 --> 00:15:00.519 Jesse claims that third boy was never raped. Jesse said 173 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:02.600 at one point that Jason one of the boys in 174 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:08.879 a headlock, and he believes that Jason had sexually assaulted him. 175 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.159 At one point, Jesse said that Jason had a quote 176 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:26.759 buck looking knife and had castrated the boy and quote 177 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:32.559 thrown it into the weeds, meaning the knife. The boy 178 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:36.919 was alive and tied. At this point, Jesse was surprised 179 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:38.519 blood did not get out on him because blood was 180 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.279 everywhere and he was only about to carlinth the way. 181 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.480 Jesse said they threw the boy into the water and 182 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.039 he was still spirming in the water, at which point 183 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:54.399 Jesse said he left. Jesse said he believed the other 184 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.480 two boys were not conscious when he left, but they 185 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:02.399 were not yet in the water. Jesse stated that Jason 186 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.960 called him later and that's why he left. Jesse told 187 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.840 Jason he could not stand to watch any longer. He 188 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.399 claims the only other contact here with Jason and Damien. 189 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.720 Subsequent were a couple of times at the skating rink, 190 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:20.000 but they were mad at him. Jesse claims his lawyers 191 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.320 asked him he was innocent, and Jesse said that he 192 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:31.720 had lied to them. Jesse said he had lied about 193 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.799 the time of the crime and the bindings used on 194 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.440 the victims to quote trick the police and see if 195 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.879 they were lying. Jesse claims, who felt sorry for what 196 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.039 has happened, and talks if he wants to testify against 197 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.320 the other boys, they will not go free, and to 198 00:16:48.360 --> 00:17:04.759 help himself. Now, the claim I assume of defense proponents 199 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:13.519 is that these deputies were lying. But again, this case 200 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.599 was potentially a death penalty case, and Echols was sentenced 201 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:20.559 in death. So you've got to believe that these two 202 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:28.039 deputy sheriffs, who presumably didn't even know Inspector Derry Gotchell 203 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:34.480 until this trial underway, and even then, even at the 204 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:36.599 time of writing this letter, they might not have even 205 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.319 known him. They might have just known of him from 206 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.920 a totally different county. They've got no connection to the case. 207 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.079 You've got to believe that they spontaneously decided to make 208 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:51.759 up a story commit perjury framed jess he Mus Kelly 209 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.359 and the other two defendants again in a death penalty 210 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:04.799 case where potentially it'd be availed to not just losing 211 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:08.960 their jobs and their pensions, potentially decades in prison just 212 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.960 to frame these random kids. I mean, like that is 213 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.680 that remotely credible? I I've never heard of anything like that. 214 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.359 I mean, people whose strange things. But that's I guess 215 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.759 what the claim is is that Clay County, like Crittenden, 216 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.640 was just full of holy roller, bigot, satanic panic victims 217 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:37.240 who would stop at nothing to the frame innocent people 218 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:43.920 for occult crime. But again I don't I don't find 219 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:55.920 that credible. The second confession, I mean, this is the 220 00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:58.799 third total confession. This is the second confession that again 221 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:05.119 I think is unimpeded, should be credible. It was February eight, 222 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:10.599 nineteen ninety four. This is when Jesse mss kelly was 223 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:16.200 at Pine Bluff, which was his destination prison to serve 224 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.920 his sentence or strike that I think it was a 225 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:24.799 feeder prison, pending classification of his security level and things. 226 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.400 Because in the case the diagnostic unit, that kind of 227 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.119 mean that he was under psychiatric evaluation based on his 228 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.160 behavior and conduct or something like suicidal ideation or because 229 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:48.480 it was a feeder institution pending classification. Dan Stidham, who 230 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.000 was one of miss Kelly's defense attorneys, he was not 231 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.160 a public defender. What a lot of jurisdiction to do 232 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:01.079 is they assign the courtal assigned an attorney in private 233 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:06.599 practice to represent indigent defendants on a case by days basis. 234 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:08.720 And as a member of the bar in good standing, 235 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.440 you know, it's it's part of your duty the community 236 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.480 as a legal professional. Women officer of the court. And 237 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.400 Stidham was. He was a younger guy, I think he 238 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.359 was about thirty, but he was well regarded. He he 239 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:34.599 put on a zealous defense. So this is Stidham's interview 240 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:41.960 with miss Kelly. Mind you, Stidham was his lawyer and 241 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.039 his trial advocate, and he just sat through months of 242 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:52.000 the proceedings with him. This is Stidham talking. It's this 243 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.000 is three twenty pm February nineteen eighty four at the 244 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:02.680 Pine Bluff, Arkansas Department of Correction, an diagnostic unit. Stidham, Okay, Jesse. 245 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.960 A few minutes ago, I asked you about making some 246 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.119 statements to the officers on the transport of view from 247 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.200 Pigo to Pine Bluff. You told me that you had 248 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.240 told them some stuff. Is that correct, instead of speaking 249 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:21.559 of what was just relayed in that letter. So apparently 250 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.920 Jesse had relayed to him that he made these statements, 251 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:34.160 further validating them, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. And at 252 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:36.039 first he told me that you were just making it up. 253 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.279 They were aligned to them. And then you placed your 254 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.880 hand on a Bible and told me that you were 255 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.759 there when those boys got killed. Miss Kelly. Yes, Sir. 256 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:50.880 What's the truth? Stidham? What's the truth? Jesse? I want 257 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:55.480 to know the truth, Miss Kelly. The truth is me 258 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.759 and Jason and Damien Dunnett. Stidham, you were there when 259 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.480 the boys were killed, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. Now 260 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.160 it's going to be very important for you to tell 261 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.400 me why it was that he'd been maintaining you weren't 262 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.880 there all this time, Miss Kelly. I was scared, Stidham. 263 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:20.279 What were you scared of? Miss Kelly? I always lied, 264 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.640 and I hadn't ever put my hand on the Bible 265 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.839 and swore nobody didn't tell me to do that. If 266 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:27.799 they would have told me that at first, I would 267 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.319 have done it. Nobody told me to put my hand 268 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:35.079 on the Bible. Stidham Okay, so basically been lying to 269 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:37.960 me and mister Crow, mister Crow was co counsel for 270 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.680 the defense in the past seven or so months, about 271 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.559 not being there when you were in fact there, miss Kelly, Yes, sir, 272 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:54.359 I mean I heard it alleged by one of these 273 00:22:54.400 --> 00:23:00.200 post conviction attorneys. Oh, miss Kelly's mentally retarded. So he 274 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.720 he thought that Stidham was the police. Get the fuck 275 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.160 out of here. That's that's that's ridiculous. I mean, first 276 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.799 of all, again, as a matter of law, miss Kelly's 277 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.240 not retarded, and I don't think people understand. Look, miss 278 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.079 Kelly was the son of a felon, and I've got 279 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.039 no standing to put Shane on that. But this kid 280 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:22.720 was in and out of the systems to his old 281 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.200 family for his whole life. Guys who are in the 282 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.039 system on phony charges, they know the law better than 283 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.039 your like like your average like a hull rant lawyer 284 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:35.839 on the criminal side. This idea that miss Kelly had 285 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:40.480 no understanding that this was his lawyer, that he that 286 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.720 that this man was his advocate and not the police 287 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.000 or a state's attorney, I mean that that's preposterous beyond 288 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.680 a belief, basically saying that this man was barely sentient. 289 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:54.039 You know. So not only did he validate his confession 290 00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:00.519 to the sheriff's deputies, he confessed again and the presence 291 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:05.960 of Stidham at the diagnostic unit of the prison. I mean, 292 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.359 what what what was the coercion there? He told Stidham 293 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.359 he wanted to confess to unburdened himself or whatever. I mean, 294 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:16.880 as we go on, we'll see. I he was looking 295 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.279 for a sentence production and so I'm going to concession 296 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:24.440 if you're willing to testify against baldwin an echoes. But 297 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:32.799 because it may you know, I you can't uh that 298 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.240 the claim isn't that you know, while he was looking 299 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:41.480 to he was looking for a favorable uh outcome at 300 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.240 that point because he'd already been convicted. No, that doesn't 301 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:47.480 that doesn't hold up. But I mean that's not even 302 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.680 what's being alleged. Just being alleged is that you know, 303 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.000 he wasn't capable of understanding that he was in jeopardy. 304 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.640 And you know, the the reality of what the role 305 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:01.720 was of of his attorney, you know, cont for the 306 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.680 police in the state's attorney. It's not it's not remotely credible. 307 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:11.160 It's not a good faith argument. And then, uh, this 308 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.599 becomes important as he goes on because he describes the 309 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:20.200 He describes to Stidham exactly what happened, and this becomes significant. Okay, 310 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:23.559 as I'm skipping ahead a bit because there's semi irrelevant testimony, 311 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:29.480 but miss Kelly testifies. You know what he related to 312 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:32.960 the to the sheriff's deputies. You know, we went, we 313 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.759 went to the woods, we were drinking. The boys walked 314 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:43.759 up and here Stidham says, did they come up on 315 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:45.920 their bicycles meaning the boys, or did they walk up 316 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.440 miss Kelly, they came up on their bicycles and laid 317 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:54.400 their bikes down. Stidham? Can I stop right there? Did 318 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:01.119 y'all smoke any dope that day? Miss Kelly? Jason, No, 319 00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.160 he don't, but to my knowledge he don't. And then 320 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.279 it's unintelligible Stidham, So y'all didn't smoke any marijuana that day, 321 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:13.400 just whiskey and beer. Where's the whiskey bottle, miss Kelly. 322 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:20.119 Whiskey bottle busted? Stidham? You busted it, miss Kelly? Yeah, 323 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.759 when did you do that miss Kelly going back when 324 00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:27.119 I was going back home after I seen what happened, 325 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:31.000 made me mad. This is significant because after this discussion, 326 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.200 Stidham went to the location where miss Kelly says, when 327 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.400 I was walking home after the murder, I was distraught. 328 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.240 Well words, I was mad, so I smashed the bottle 329 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:51.400 under this viaduct. Stidham went there with the assistant, say 330 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.720 Sony Fogelman. They retrieved a piece that Evan Williams bottle 331 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.920 and it had a fragment of the label on it. 332 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.279 They took that fragment to the liquor store. They mashed 333 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.079 it with an Evan Williams bottle, and Fogeman actually stated 334 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:12.200 off the record, he said he saw Stidham just kind 335 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.960 of collapse at that point, like you get almost as 336 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:21.799 a perceptible sigh, because he realized that, you know, Stidham 337 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:23.440 was one of these guys who actually believed in his 338 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:28.480 client's innocence. Now, it might not seem like much to 339 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.519 somebody who's never defended a criminal case or to talk 340 00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:37.039 to these kinds of people. The devil is it is 341 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.680 truly in the details. Ms Kelly would not have made 342 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.400 up this whole lurid a horrible, horrible story about this 343 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:49.079 sexual assault, murdered children, but then told the truth about Oh, 344 00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.000 I smashed his whiskey bottle. No, he'spinding a picture of 345 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.880 exactly what he did. They tortured and murdered those boys 346 00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:59.440 when he was walking home. That's exactly what he did. 347 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.079 He smashes him in Williams bottle, and months later a 348 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.640 fragment was still there, you know. And like I said, 349 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.279 I I know that people say, logically that doesn't follow, 350 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.519 but it does. In terms of the criminal mind or 351 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:24.920 the the psychopathic personality. It absolutely is material. I mean, 352 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.079 it's material anyway because of his testimony, but you know 353 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:31.640 what I mean, it's the devil's in the details. And 354 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.240 I found that fascinating what Folgomen relayed that. I mean, 355 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.599 obviously that wouldn't have been admissible in court, even where 356 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.880 miss Hilly already not not already convicted. But you know, 357 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:50.160 and interestingly, you know, the remainder, like I said it, 358 00:28:52.839 --> 00:29:03.319 he reiterates the stitum, the nature of the injuries sustained 359 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.279 by the victims, and it's it's more detailed, but it's 360 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:13.599 ichdetical to the fact pattern that he relayed to the 361 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:22.519 deputies in the letter, and again what I think it's 362 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:30.799 highly material also that, if not as a matter of culpability, 363 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:36.319 just in terms of the dynamic between the defendants, it 364 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.559 was Baldwin that escalated. Baldwin is the one who started 365 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.920 cutting the kid, and miss Kelly claims he was shocked 366 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:47.720 by this, which I believe is true. That doesn't mitigate 367 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:52.640 his responsibility. But you know, Baldwin is the one who 368 00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:57.559 kind of remains in the proverbial shadows because Ecchos is 369 00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:03.440 such a a bizarre person who enjoys flying his freak 370 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.000 flag over a pure aisle. Let me be. Miss Kelly 371 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.079 is held out as this sort of Boo Radley figure, 372 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.839 like this retard who was brutalized by the police. Baldwin 373 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:18.200 plays it off like he's just kind of this simple man, 374 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:20.240 you know, with a mullet and a soft Southern drill 375 00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:23.680 and well, collegey, I've got convicted something I didn't do, 376 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:28.000 all right, riddle need this Baldwen if you look at 377 00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:31.640 him as a skinny white boy. He goes to a 378 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:38.839 southern maximum security penitentiary for a rape murder of children, 379 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:44.599 and the dude thrives there. Not only does he not 380 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:51.400 get shanked by some click who whacks Chomo's to keep 381 00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.799 him off the yard. He doesn't check into PC, he 382 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:59.559 doesn't get turned out, he doesn't get whacked. This dude 383 00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:04.400 is such a fucking savage that even with that Chomo jacket, 384 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:08.960 he's good. Like, what kind of psycho was that guy? Like? 385 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.640 Think about that? And Mees made that point, you know, 386 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:24.319 and it's Eccles interestingly slipped up because he and Eckles 387 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:29.039 wanted to cop the Alford plea when they got released. 388 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:31.839 What a lot of people don't understand is that they 389 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:36.599 weren't exonerated and they didn't prevail on appeal. Essentially, eccles 390 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:47.880 defense team they were able to corral enough expert testimony 391 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.319 through these you know, these these these comparatively lavish funds 392 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:58.119 they received to do so to probably win a new 393 00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:06.920 trial based on DNA evidence, which didn't alter the basis 394 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.359 of the conviction as determined by the tri of fact. 395 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:18.880 But under Arkansas a law, you're entitled to a hearing 396 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.680 on DNA evidence the technology to analyze which was not 397 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:32.079 available at the time of trial. So the State of Arkansas, 398 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:37.799 they basically took the perspective of you can probably get 399 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.680 a new trial, and you might be able to win. 400 00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:46.880 We're going to cut our losses if your client will 401 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:52.680