Speaker 1: Main in a live Man like this, Man, you letting
butterfly flapping his wing dig down in the forest. Man,
it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man,
nobody seen, nobody, You don't even know. Man. You a
little story and you got that. Man. Man don't like
a dang on the panel? Mann matter?
Speaker 2: Man all right after uh after much fanfare. Really, people
will not shut up about getting this episode out. Thomas,
Welcome back to The Jay Burdon Show. It's good to
have you. Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for hosting me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course you know I'm joking. I'm glad that
people have been enjoying this series covering the West Memphis three.
But we're back to sort of resume where we left off,
So I'll kick it to you, Thomas.
Speaker 1: What's most significant in terms of the case against the
West Memphis three Just an evidentiary terms we were talking
about before went live. Obviously, an admission by a party
opponent in the form of a confession, in this case,
multiple confessions, that carries more evidentiary weight really than anything
other than direct evidence, you know, direct eyewitness testimony, and
the people who advocate for the innocence of the West
Memphis three. Really the core of their narrative. The defense's
case in chief, in a rebuttal if you will, is
that Jesse mus Kelly's mentally disabled and he was coerced
into confess by the police who were depriving him of
counsel and frightening him and providing him essentially with testimony
they expected him to parrot in order to incriminate himself. Well,
there's a few things to understand about cours confessions. They
absolutely do happen, but there's a pattern that develops there. Generally,
they happen in the absence of circumstantial or direct evidence.
That wasn't the case here, And almost without exception, the
defendant immediately begins retracting his statement and insisting that he
was coerced. Miss Kelly confessed repeatedly on record. He confessed
to his attorneys, He confessed to the sheriff's deputies escorting
to prison after it was convicted. He confessed to acquaintances,
he confessed to cellmates. You know, you can't get away
from you can't get around this, you know, And I
think it's a matter of people watch the documentary The
Brolinger in a Sinovsky documentary, they take that at face value,
and they don't dig into the trial record, and they
don't dig into the the offers a proof. They just say, oh,
if he confessed repeatedly, he was being coerced. No, we're
talking about discreete occurrences months apart under totally different conditions.
And on top of that, and I'm gonna this is
the caveat. There's some really disturbing testimony I'm gonna get
into that's disgusting, that deals with the sensual abuse and
murder of children. If that anything bothers you, I'm gonna
I'm gonna we're dak language that I don't embarrass myself
for anybody else, But it's a pretty horrible subject matter.
To just be aware that you may want to skip
over this or or tune out if if that upsets you.
I also wanted to know, just as for foundational purposes.
The overarching narrative of West Memphis three innocence advocates is
that marrying in West Memphis was this town of religious
this community religious fundamentalists who were bigoted Holy rollers, who
were terrified of this phantasm of occultism, and they persecuted
these teenage boys we've established that. Well, I can't remember
some data, and to Gary Mees's credit, he he corralled this.
The county where Maryon and West Memphis are located is
Crittenden County, and as of nineteen ninety, the percentage of
the population of Crittenden County that declared an affiliation with
a religious congregation was well blown the national average. The
statistical profile was forty one point seven percent compared to
a national average of fifty point two percent. This was
also a community that was sustained by the interstate So yes,
it was poor, it was southern. It was not what
you'd call a cosmopolitan have a culture. But in interstate
towns like this, gambling's big, prostitution's big, drugs are big.
You got all kinds of transient people, and religion actually
isn't a big thing there. It's again below the national average.
Now America is so large the meaning of those averages
can be diluted. But when we're talking about it discrete
allegation that this community was characterized by some sort of
extreme religiosity that was well outside the norm. That's now
that's a confabulation, just outright, you know, And I made
the point before we went live, A lot was made
to the fact that the state and establishing foundation for motive.
Evidence of motive plan design is admissible because it's relevant.
The state never needs to prove motive as an element
of the offense, but obviously it's factually relevant. You know. Again,
there were the trappings of occult belief structures surrounding this
crime scene, the testimony of people who knew echoes and
who heard his illusions and in some cases are right
confessions to the crimes he identified as an occultist, and
the police and the state's attorney's office proffered experts on
occult crime. And this was held out in the Paradise
Lost movie. As see this police department was so out
of it and crazy they had an occult crime staff. Well,
so did Chicago PD, so did the NYPD, so did LAPD.
These days, whether it's one officer or one hundred officer.
As a sign of that detail, they'd refer to it
as as security threat group investigations that would entail everything
from gangs to non state actors and political terrorist groups
to cult organizations that are involved in criminal or raggeteering activity.
It's a broad pnumber of of behaviors and structures. It's
not merely you know, satanic crime or something an ad order,
but the other as it may. The most significant confessions
mss kelly confessions. He confessed on February fourth, nineteen ninety four.
This was after his arrest. Okay, not not even addressing
his custodial arrest. I'll accept that that's not a legitimate confession.
I don't believe that to be the case. I think
it satisfies all the criteria of due process. But making
that concession the defense, let's redact that entirely. So we've
got three confessions here. We've got a confession on February fourth,
nineteen ninety four. We've got a confession on February eighth,
nineteen ninety four. We got a confession on February seventeenth,
nineteen ninety four. Now, the February fourth confession came to
light a Shero's deputy named John Moody. In transporting miss
Kelly post conviction. Immediately post conviction to the Arkansas Department
of Corrections, he contacted Gary Gotchell, who was the homicide
inspector of the West Memphis Police Department. Now this is
relevant to miss Kelly was. These were Clay County Sheriff's deputies,
not Crittenden County. Because miss Kelly's trial had been removed
from Crittenden County by defense motion. They asked for a
change of venue, alleging that miss Kelly would be prejudiced
in Critinin County, like the potential jury pool would be
tainted against them, and they got that motion granted. So supposedly,
again the state's trying to frame up miss Kelly, but
they're granting defense motions to remove the trial, you know.
And this was pre Internet, So these Clay County jurors
they were, they were they prejudiced against him too, because
they're taken in by satanic panic. But that's relevant, it's material,
it's not just a matter of trivia. So this Clay
County Sheriff's deputy, and this was validated by a deputy
James Lindsay, who was with this officer named of John
Moody on the afternoon at February fourth. This is John
Moody's testimony that he wrote to uh Giggell on the
anting of February fourth, nineteen ninety four. Deputy James Lindsay
and myself for transferring Jesse miss Kelly to Arkansas Department
of Corrections At Pine Bluff. Jesse was asked if there's
anything he wanted to say. After being assured we could
not use anything he said against him in court, he
chose to talk. Jason advised he had received a call
from Jason Baldwin. This is speaking on the date of
the murders. May fifth, nineteen ninety three. Jesse advised he'd
received a call from Jason Baldwin ask him if he
wanted to go to West Memphis to quote get some girls. Jesse, Damien,
and Jason met on a local road on May fifth.
Sometime in the evening, Jesse claimed that he'd been drinking
Evan Williams whiskey. This becomes material that he was drinking
Evan Williams, Jesse clan had been drinking Evan Williams whiskey,
and that a Missus Hutchinson had bought him and Jason
and Damien beer and whiskey. Jason and Damon were drinking beer.
Jesse also stated that they had smoked two marijuana joints
that afternoon. Jesse said that he had known Jason Baldwin
since the sixth grade and did not know Damien that well,
but that Damien would drink human blood. Jesse stated that
after all meeting on the road, the three boys walked
to the woods and were sitting in the water. Three
young boys were seen from a distance when Damien told
Jesse and Jason to hide. Jesse said they were hiding
behind bushy is when Damien grabbed Michael Moore, one of
the young boys. The two other young boys started hitting
Damien trying to help their friend, and this is what
Jesse and Jason jumped out and helped Damien beat them.
Jesse advised he helped hold them and beat them, but
had no part in raping or killing them. Jesse advised
two of the boys were raped and that Jesse and
Jason were taking turns beating the two boys. Jesse said
the two boys were still alive at this time. Jesse
said the boys were kept quiet by putting hands over
their mouths, and that Jason and Damian had to use
their shirts and that at times their face was pushed
down into the ground. Used their shirts for It's not clear,
but he means to gag them, Jesse was asked. So
the boys were kept under control while being raped and
not tied yet, and he stated, quote, they were like
puppies when he whoop a puppy and tell it to
stay at will. Jesse did say that he had to
catch Michael Moore, but did not say at what point.
Jesse claims that third boy was never raped. Jesse said
at one point that Jason one of the boys in
a headlock, and he believes that Jason had sexually assaulted him.
At one point, Jesse said that Jason had a quote
buck looking knife and had castrated the boy and quote
thrown it into the weeds, meaning the knife. The boy
was alive and tied. At this point, Jesse was surprised
blood did not get out on him because blood was
everywhere and he was only about to carlinth the way.
Jesse said they threw the boy into the water and
he was still spirming in the water, at which point
Jesse said he left. Jesse said he believed the other
two boys were not conscious when he left, but they
were not yet in the water. Jesse stated that Jason
called him later and that's why he left. Jesse told
Jason he could not stand to watch any longer. He
claims the only other contact here with Jason and Damien.
Subsequent were a couple of times at the skating rink,
but they were mad at him. Jesse claims his lawyers
asked him he was innocent, and Jesse said that he
had lied to them. Jesse said he had lied about
the time of the crime and the bindings used on
the victims to quote trick the police and see if
they were lying. Jesse claims, who felt sorry for what
has happened, and talks if he wants to testify against
the other boys, they will not go free, and to
help himself. Now, the claim I assume of defense proponents
is that these deputies were lying. But again, this case
was potentially a death penalty case, and Echols was sentenced
in death. So you've got to believe that these two
deputy sheriffs, who presumably didn't even know Inspector Derry Gotchell
until this trial underway, and even then, even at the
time of writing this letter, they might not have even
known him. They might have just known of him from
a totally different county. They've got no connection to the case.
You've got to believe that they spontaneously decided to make
up a story commit perjury framed jess he Mus Kelly
and the other two defendants again in a death penalty
case where potentially it'd be availed to not just losing
their jobs and their pensions, potentially decades in prison just
to frame these random kids. I mean, like that is
that remotely credible? I I've never heard of anything like that.
I mean, people whose strange things. But that's I guess
what the claim is is that Clay County, like Crittenden,
was just full of holy roller, bigot, satanic panic victims
who would stop at nothing to the frame innocent people
for occult crime. But again I don't I don't find
that credible. The second confession, I mean, this is the
third total confession. This is the second confession that again
I think is unimpeded, should be credible. It was February eight,
nineteen ninety four. This is when Jesse mss kelly was
at Pine Bluff, which was his destination prison to serve
his sentence or strike that I think it was a
feeder prison, pending classification of his security level and things.
Because in the case the diagnostic unit, that kind of
mean that he was under psychiatric evaluation based on his
behavior and conduct or something like suicidal ideation or because
it was a feeder institution pending classification. Dan Stidham, who
was one of miss Kelly's defense attorneys, he was not
a public defender. What a lot of jurisdiction to do
is they assign the courtal assigned an attorney in private
practice to represent indigent defendants on a case by days basis.
And as a member of the bar in good standing,
you know, it's it's part of your duty the community
as a legal professional. Women officer of the court. And
Stidham was. He was a younger guy, I think he
was about thirty, but he was well regarded. He he
put on a zealous defense. So this is Stidham's interview
with miss Kelly. Mind you, Stidham was his lawyer and
his trial advocate, and he just sat through months of
the proceedings with him. This is Stidham talking. It's this
is three twenty pm February nineteen eighty four at the
Pine Bluff, Arkansas Department of Correction, an diagnostic unit. Stidham, Okay, Jesse.
A few minutes ago, I asked you about making some
statements to the officers on the transport of view from
Pigo to Pine Bluff. You told me that you had
told them some stuff. Is that correct, instead of speaking
of what was just relayed in that letter. So apparently
Jesse had relayed to him that he made these statements,
further validating them, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. And at
first he told me that you were just making it up.
They were aligned to them. And then you placed your
hand on a Bible and told me that you were
there when those boys got killed. Miss Kelly. Yes, Sir.
What's the truth? Stidham? What's the truth? Jesse? I want
to know the truth, Miss Kelly. The truth is me
and Jason and Damien Dunnett. Stidham, you were there when
the boys were killed, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. Now
it's going to be very important for you to tell
me why it was that he'd been maintaining you weren't
there all this time, Miss Kelly. I was scared, Stidham.
What were you scared of? Miss Kelly? I always lied,
and I hadn't ever put my hand on the Bible
and swore nobody didn't tell me to do that. If
they would have told me that at first, I would
have done it. Nobody told me to put my hand
on the Bible. Stidham Okay, so basically been lying to
me and mister Crow, mister Crow was co counsel for
the defense in the past seven or so months, about
not being there when you were in fact there, miss Kelly, Yes, sir,
I mean I heard it alleged by one of these
post conviction attorneys. Oh, miss Kelly's mentally retarded. So he
he thought that Stidham was the police. Get the fuck
out of here. That's that's that's ridiculous. I mean, first
of all, again, as a matter of law, miss Kelly's
not retarded, and I don't think people understand. Look, miss
Kelly was the son of a felon, and I've got
no standing to put Shane on that. But this kid
was in and out of the systems to his old
family for his whole life. Guys who are in the
system on phony charges, they know the law better than
your like like your average like a hull rant lawyer
on the criminal side. This idea that miss Kelly had
no understanding that this was his lawyer, that he that
that this man was his advocate and not the police
or a state's attorney, I mean that that's preposterous beyond
a belief, basically saying that this man was barely sentient.
You know. So not only did he validate his confession
to the sheriff's deputies, he confessed again and the presence
of Stidham at the diagnostic unit of the prison. I mean,
what what what was the coercion there? He told Stidham
he wanted to confess to unburdened himself or whatever. I mean,
as we go on, we'll see. I he was looking
for a sentence production and so I'm going to concession
if you're willing to testify against baldwin an echoes. But
because it may you know, I you can't uh that
the claim isn't that you know, while he was looking
to he was looking for a favorable uh outcome at
that point because he'd already been convicted. No, that doesn't
that doesn't hold up. But I mean that's not even
what's being alleged. Just being alleged is that you know,
he wasn't capable of understanding that he was in jeopardy.
And you know, the the reality of what the role
was of of his attorney, you know, cont for the
police in the state's attorney. It's not it's not remotely credible.
It's not a good faith argument. And then, uh, this
becomes important as he goes on because he describes the
He describes to Stidham exactly what happened, and this becomes significant. Okay,
as I'm skipping ahead a bit because there's semi irrelevant testimony,
but miss Kelly testifies. You know what he related to
the to the sheriff's deputies. You know, we went, we
went to the woods, we were drinking. The boys walked
up and here Stidham says, did they come up on
their bicycles meaning the boys, or did they walk up
miss Kelly, they came up on their bicycles and laid
their bikes down. Stidham? Can I stop right there? Did
y'all smoke any dope that day? Miss Kelly? Jason, No,
he don't, but to my knowledge he don't. And then
it's unintelligible Stidham, So y'all didn't smoke any marijuana that day,
just whiskey and beer. Where's the whiskey bottle, miss Kelly.
Whiskey bottle busted? Stidham? You busted it, miss Kelly? Yeah,
when did you do that miss Kelly going back when
I was going back home after I seen what happened,
made me mad. This is significant because after this discussion,
Stidham went to the location where miss Kelly says, when
I was walking home after the murder, I was distraught.
Well words, I was mad, so I smashed the bottle
under this viaduct. Stidham went there with the assistant, say
Sony Fogelman. They retrieved a piece that Evan Williams bottle
and it had a fragment of the label on it.
They took that fragment to the liquor store. They mashed
it with an Evan Williams bottle, and Fogeman actually stated
off the record, he said he saw Stidham just kind
of collapse at that point, like you get almost as
a perceptible sigh, because he realized that, you know, Stidham
was one of these guys who actually believed in his
client's innocence. Now, it might not seem like much to
somebody who's never defended a criminal case or to talk
to these kinds of people. The devil is it is
truly in the details. Ms Kelly would not have made
up this whole lurid a horrible, horrible story about this
sexual assault, murdered children, but then told the truth about Oh,
I smashed his whiskey bottle. No, he'spinding a picture of
exactly what he did. They tortured and murdered those boys
when he was walking home. That's exactly what he did.
He smashes him in Williams bottle, and months later a
fragment was still there, you know. And like I said,
I I know that people say, logically that doesn't follow,
but it does. In terms of the criminal mind or
the the psychopathic personality. It absolutely is material. I mean,
it's material anyway because of his testimony, but you know
what I mean, it's the devil's in the details. And
I found that fascinating what Folgomen relayed that. I mean,
obviously that wouldn't have been admissible in court, even where
miss Hilly already not not already convicted. But you know,
and interestingly, you know, the remainder, like I said it,
he reiterates the stitum, the nature of the injuries sustained
by the victims, and it's it's more detailed, but it's
ichdetical to the fact pattern that he relayed to the
deputies in the letter, and again what I think it's
highly material also that, if not as a matter of culpability,
just in terms of the dynamic between the defendants, it
was Baldwin that escalated. Baldwin is the one who started
cutting the kid, and miss Kelly claims he was shocked
by this, which I believe is true. That doesn't mitigate
his responsibility. But you know, Baldwin is the one who
kind of remains in the proverbial shadows because Ecchos is
such a a bizarre person who enjoys flying his freak
flag over a pure aisle. Let me be. Miss Kelly
is held out as this sort of Boo Radley figure,
like this retard who was brutalized by the police. Baldwin
plays it off like he's just kind of this simple man,
you know, with a mullet and a soft Southern drill
and well, collegey, I've got convicted something I didn't do,
all right, riddle need this Baldwen if you look at
him as a skinny white boy. He goes to a
southern maximum security penitentiary for a rape murder of children,
and the dude thrives there. Not only does he not
get shanked by some click who whacks Chomo's to keep
him off the yard. He doesn't check into PC, he
doesn't get turned out, he doesn't get whacked. This dude
is such a fucking savage that even with that Chomo jacket,
he's good. Like, what kind of psycho was that guy? Like?
Think about that? And Mees made that point, you know,
and it's Eccles interestingly slipped up because he and Eckles
wanted to cop the Alford plea when they got released.
What a lot of people don't understand is that they
weren't exonerated and they didn't prevail on appeal. Essentially, eccles
defense team they were able to corral enough expert testimony
through these you know, these these these comparatively lavish funds
they received to do so to probably win a new
trial based on DNA evidence, which didn't alter the basis
of the conviction as determined by the tri of fact.
But under Arkansas a law, you're entitled to a hearing
on DNA evidence the technology to analyze which was not
available at the time of trial. So the State of Arkansas,
they basically took the perspective of you can probably get
a new trial, and you might be able to win.
We're going to cut our losses if your client will
stipulate to the facts and plead no contest, which is
when Alfred plea is. Baldwin didn't want to take it.
He wanted to keep sitting in prison and see if
he could when you know, on a post conviction, a
straight post conviction appeal. So he Echoes this big falling
out and then Echos said on twenty twenty or whatever
he said. You know, Jason love prison. He loved prison.
Think about that. You know, the truth is not what
people think it is. And a lot of instances were
psychologically abnormal people are are the subject matter. But this
is important. On top of being just an evil person
and a devian, a total piece of shit, Echoes is
at a park Baldwin and contrast is a very frightening individual,
even to his fellow cons you know. And incidentally, Baldo
was the youngest of the defendants. He refused to say
a word to the police from the time he was
arrested until he was convicted and sentenced to life in
prison without parole. He didn't say a word. I mean,
that's most sixteen seventeen year olds aren't like even a
hood dudes, even guys who've done third in the street,
even dudes who've dropped bodies generally don't know that kind
of fortitude. But yeah, and interestingly, that's what Folbhaman said too.
He said Baldwin never said a word. He just he
just when we told him he's being a resident for murder,
he said, I want to see a lawyer. That was it.
Then he goes to prison that was not get turned
out or killed again. He finds a home there, he
thrives despite a trombo jacket. It's incredible, but that shows
you what kind of monster the guy is. There's not
even cool about out there. I want to make it clear,
like he's he's so abnormal and so deviant. He eats
people and that's what kept him alive in the joint,
not just alive, but apparently somewhat content. But moving on
from my polemic, the third uh fashion again not the
third total, but for our purposes, I believe he's the
the strongest declarations by miss Kelly of his own palpability.
I'm just finding my place here. I'm sorry about this man. Yes,
I think I alluded to before we went live, before
I believe as a jury was being unpaneled because Eccles
and h Baldwin there there they were tried together, which
was an interesting tactical call, but it in their case
that made sense. I the state was reading when the
lines of state was hoping that Eccles in Baldwin would
their respective counsels that uh attack the other and basically
would make the state's case in chief for them. That
didn't really happen, but it didn't need to either, because
Eccles took the stand and really hanged himself and bald
was sort of invisible through the whole trial, which was
a strategy, but he it basically echos got him convicted too. Okay,
But on February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four, Miss Kelly confessed
yet again. President was Stidham's co counsel, Greg Crow, as
well as a representative of the Clay County state's attorney
named Joe Calvin, and a Crittenden County prosecutor Brent Davis.
Because it was a Critton County case but had been
removed to Clay County. You had both the offices represented,
which is standard that there's a change of venue in
a criminal case. There's just the way they do it,
not just for jurisdictional reasoning, but it's sort of parlay
of a sort between jurisdictions and any event. Almost certainly
what miss Kelly was trying to do here is gave
some sort of leverage for a sentence reduction, come clean
on the record with the state present two so that
there was no doubt whatsoever about what his testimony was,
and in exchange for a reduction from I think sixty years,
he caught sixty or eighty years. You know he'd be
willing to testify against echoes in Baldwin. And to be
clear too, even if there hadn't been the agreement that
this testimony wouldn't be entered into the record if miss
Kelly refused to testify, the confrontation clause or preclude the
statement from me admitted you have a right to con
front of your accuser, and a criminal case testimony this
sort can't be introduced unless you have the right to
cross examine. To claren okay, and owing to unavailability and
or refusal to testify, you know that's off the table.
But undoubtedly this is what miss Kelly was going for
so yet again, Okay, here we have two law enforcement
representatives of the respective states, Toney's offices President, but you
also have miss Kelly's defense team present. And again this
didn't come from Stidham. Stidham objected to miss Kelly saying anything,
as any defense counsel would. So this came from miss Kelly.
This guy who supposedly is this retard who can't even
tell the difference between his own counsel and the police.
He's devising in his mind ways to get immunity on
an evidence proffer so that he can get his sentence reduced.
As he's pretty sophisticated for a retard, doesn't it. I think.
So that's the kind of stuff that conniving, felonious UH
types of people do, exactly like miss Kelly is. So
this is eight oh two pm, February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four.
This is UH Brad Davis, the UH Brent Davis, Crittin
and prosecutor swearing Jesse miss Kelly in. He swears to
all the truth but truth as Oh be God, Miss Kelly, Yes, sir,
I do. This is Brent Calvin again. However, purpose of
the record, I went to reflect number one that mister
Stillman and myself have talked with Judge Burnett presiding Judge
over Eccles and following his case, and advised him with
the proceedings. After discussing this with him, he approved or
said that we could take a statement with mister miss
Kelly's attorney's presence Stidham, over my objections, Calvin or mister
Stidham's objections, moving on well, detesting the recording Stidham, Now
we listen very careful what I tell you. Okay. I
told you I had some new evidences. That correct, miss Kelly.
That's what you said, Stidham, That I told the new
evidence may I planned filing a motion for a new
trial and that the court may give you a new
trial based on this evidence. That correct, miss Kelly, That's
what you said. So Stidham's advising him. Look, I think
we got basis for an appeal. Don't go through with
this because you're gonna hang yourself. Even if this profher
isn't admissible and it's you and of itself, we're gonna,
you know, move beyond this. So miss Kelly goes on
to reiterate because the state asks him if he in
fact attested to what was claimed by the officers who
were transporting him on February fourth, nineteen ninety four, which
is the subject of a letter to fold them in
mis Kelly acknowledges, yes, he said that. Then he acknowledges
the validity of what he said days later to Stidham,
invalidating that that was in fact a true aun A
statement and that he did render that account and culpatory
account of the murders, the rapes and murders to these
deputy sheriffs. This confession is uh and somebody's even more detailed.
It's obvious that even though Stidham advised him not to
do this, when it begin clear who's going to go
through with it, Obviously Stidham wanted the factual record to
be as clear as possible because of your client as
hell bent on going through with this kind of gamble.
It's imperative that courting out the sciet he's perjuring himself,
because then all deals are off, regardless of what was
negotiated previously. And interestingly, he reiterates that the anecdote about
the Evan Williams bottle, you know, and again I know
that because I've heard people raise this, not just to me,
but in the course of some of this footage, I've
seen a fogman and others instead of himself talking about
what he perceived of the significance of that admission. If
people either don't understand why they're placing this emphasis on
that or they dismiss it, it's it's relevant. Okay, It's
highly relevant. And that's why he keeps coming back to it. Okay.
I all I can tell you is that it's it's
a it's it's an aspect of the human mind when
confronted with evidence of guilt, and even a you know,
even even very disturbed people generally the guilty conscience. Okay.
And it's it's a recurring pattern, you know. And his
storials are made the same Clay County Stays turned to
ask some picking up the narrative right where miss Kelly,
Baldwin and Ecchos enter the woods, and he says, yeah,
we sat in the water. So Miss Kelly says, we
sat there and started drinking. Though he heard some noise.
Three old boys came up and we jumped them, you know.
And then he goes through. He never waivers, you know,
I beat the one boy at ecchoes, you know, grab
the others. Then Baldwin intervened. Then the one boy ran
I brought him back. I saw Echols molesting the kid,
and and then I saw Baldwin's knife come out. He
never he never waivers, and he never changes the facts.
He never changes which boy he assaulted or the order
in which these horrors are perpetuated on the victims. And
he's telling the truth. I don't see what's impeachable about
his testimony, you know, And I, yeah, I don't know
what else to say about it.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I want to mention, uh,
when discussing this case is one of the experts who
was called to bear you know, one of the reasons
that these guys got out, Richard Afshi, who's sort of
an infamous figure. He's been called in tactically at other
kind of high profile cases.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I'm not not trying to put you on the spot,
but do you have anything to say about about that guy,
because obviously, you know, as we go deeper into this
occult series, his name will come up again.
Speaker 1: He was big as a defense expert in the McMartin trial,
which is one of the longest trials in criminal history.
It was even longer than the trial of Richard Ramirez
and of Angela Bono was one of the whole side
of stranglers. Part of I had also the peculiarity of
the California Rules of Evidence, which allows ridiculously the free
discovery rights. I mean, I'm pro defense as can be,
and I but at some point, you know, enough has
got to be enough. If she was very much behind
that this effort to discredit the testimony of people who
claimed that recovered memories or exposure to memory triggers had
allowed them to identify, you know, their assailants. He was
very big in discrediting the entire repressed memory narrative, which
had real world consequences because it was a big controversy
at law whether that sort of testimony could be proffered,
whether somebody could say, well, I didn't know, I didn't
have knowledge of this, I didn't have knowledge of the
person who assaulted me, or I didn't knowledge of the events.
There's a subject matter this trial. As long as a
veil is subjected to a memory trigger by a diagnostician
or a psychiatrist or some sort of therapist trained in
the diagnostic criteria, and then subsequently I remembered these things
that I'm attesting to today. She did a lot to
get that kind of testimony removed from courtroom practice. But
he also he didn't frame it this way, obviously, but
where children were involved in testifying, he basically made it
so that there's a there's a presumption that the state
actors of the state, whether they're police or states attorneys,
are essentially always leading child witnesses, and that children, based
upon a combination of social conditioning and immaturity of the
conscious mind, they will always try and please adults and
always agree with authority figures, even in the absence of
direct coercive persuasion. So that is what kind of put
him on the map. In some ways, he's kind of
the defense Council's answer to park beats, you know, like
if you need in the aftermath of the John Hinckley trial,
you know, Hinkley was really the last eye profile defendant
to prevail on an insanity defense because people were outraged
after that. How can you take a shot at the
President of United States and prevail on an insanity defense? Now,
mind you, even if you're prevailing an insanity defense, that
means you're spending probably the rest of your life in
a high security psych ward, which is probably worse than prison.
But I get it. I get the sentiment, and I
think that there was a lot of pseuito science that
went into Because insanity defense is an affirmative defense, the
eventually burden shifts to the defense. Okay, this is essential
to understanding the process. But to bring it back to
off She, one area of proported expertise that he also
made a very outside impact in was the way in
which coercion while under questioning and custody is understood. Off
She went above and beyond what even most pro defense
experts would say constitutes a coercive environment as regards criminal interrogations.
Obviously everybody can imagine is something like John Bergen and
the Red Squad, like what they used to do to people.
They literally taking someone hutter at and wiring up his
private parts through a field telephone like he's a Viet
Cong and and shocking him or whacking him with a
phone book. Okay, I mean that's obvious corision, but obviously said, well,
just the very fact of being in custody is coursive.
So when you're dealing with people who have been availed
to say class or racial oppression within the commonly accepted
paradigm of what the regime considers to be good sociology. Well,
they're gonna have this instinctive fear that these police officer
are gonna hurt them. Or you're talking about somebody like
Jesse Missus Kelly, who is mean until he's subnormal and
has an instinctive fear of the police. He's going to
do everything he can to please his interigators. And just
the very fact of him being deprived of a representative advocate,
even if he doesn't in vocus right to council, and
even if he's of age and majority, that itself places
him under course of pressure. Now obviously a lot of
this is nonsense, you know, but that's the problem with
courtroom practice, particularly in criminal law. Criminal law can become
very complicated with its fact patterns, but it's not that
complicated in terms of the letter of the law. It's
not you got the Bill of rights. You're basically, if
you're defense counsel, you're doing everything you can to get
evidence suppressed on pre trial motion because then you're essentially
defanging the case in chi for the prosecution. But failing that,
you're just arguing, especially in a horrible homicide case like this,
you're basically just arguing facts and circumstances and mitigation, and
you're tagging the credibility of the state's witnesses. So experts
have this outsized significance. And not only do they have
an outside significance, but you're dealing with subject areas that
are not based on empirical criteria. They're often based on
pseudoscience or speculation. We even if they're valid, they're based
on a witness saying. I'm an expert because over so
many decades, I've interviewed so many criminal personalities or psychotics
or subnormal people accused of crimes like Jesimus Kelly. And
based on that experience and based on my understanding of
the criteria that break down the psychic defenses of somebody
under interrogation, this constitutes coercion. According to the spirit of
the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment,
as well as evolving understand evolving standards of ethics and decency.
You know, it's bullshit.
Speaker 2: So one more thing I want to get into before
we talk talk about you know, what happened to these
these men once they got out of prison. What do
you make of the character of Vicky Hutchinson for a
little bit of context. Basically, she gets pulled into this story.
She's you know, been called into the police station for
you know, I think, being accused of, you know, robbing
her employer. Her son is in the room with her,
you know, causing so much of a distraction they can't
even administer the polygraph test. And during that conversation, this son,
I think he was seven at the time, says that
the boys who were killed, who he was, you know,
allegedly friends with, were killed by Spanish speaking Satanists. So
of course, you know, the police pounce on this.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: They you know, they have this woman, you know, smuggle
a recording device into her house, you know, invite echols
over to try and get some sort of incriminating evidence.
And then this is where stories diverge. Uh the police say,
you know, the recording was inaudible. H much later, in
two thousand and three, I believe she completely and totally recanted.
She said everything was, you know, completely made up. She
also makes some kind of outrageous claims about the police
that she says that the police were, you know, using
the suspects as human dartboards, uh, and that she was
similarly intimidated. This particular character is often featured in discussions
of how this case has been you know, quote unquote debunked.
So I'm curious what do you make of that detail.
Speaker 1: Vickie Hutchinson, she's the missus Hutchinson or the miss Hutchinson
who bought the Ewen Williams whiskey and the beer for
Baldwin and Eccles. Miss Kelly she she was it just
kind of sad and pathetic lady. The totally general alcoholic,
like blackout drunk alcoholic. She had charges from Bezelman, some
restaurants she was working at. She appropriated a credit card
number and taking money or made fraudulent charges. And yeah,
she was a single mother, barely functional person. She lived
at the Highland Trailer Park and Miss Kelly she'd buy him.
I think they were probably, I mean, she was. She
was this lady in her thirties, but she'd earlate twenties
or around thirty. But she'd hang around with teenagers. And
you can put two of it together. Obviously, Miss Kelly
and some of their boys were, you know, messing around
with her, and she used to baby Miss Kelly used
to babysit her kid sometimes and she'd buy him wicker
and stuff. Okay, when she was being interrogated by the
police or when she was checking in bas you know,
incident to her pre trial probation or whatever. There is
such a thing, particularly in smaller jurisdictions, but not exclusively,
and especially people who are in the drug court program
or who are in some phase of evaluation for substance
abuvious enter being charged. But yeah, her her son who
it seems like a very sad story. He obviously had
all kinds of problems and you know, owing to his circumstances,
you're only about seven years old. He suddenly pipes up
saying he knows what happened to his three friends and saying, well,
there's this there's this playhouse or the shed in the
woods where you know, people engage in these bizarre rituals,
and uh, he went under this crazy story about Spanish
speaking men and uh, some sort of bonfire where deities
are being raised, and then his friends being tied up
and shot by guys in in in masks, and I mean,
obviously a disturbed little kid who couldn't distinguish back from reality.
But when he started talking about some sort of cult
activity in the woods, and I'll get into this next
episode if you're okay with taking this to another episode, Okay,
Jesse miss Kelly when he was confronted with you know,
Gary Gtchell obviously was a veteran cop, and he says
to him, you know how deep was this cult activity
of Echos. Miss Kelly says, well, sometimes we just take
girls into the woods and basically have like orgies with them.
And he's like, Eccles believed in the Satanist stuff, but
I didn't. But then he references this older guy who
miss Kelly claimed got Echos into the Crowley stuff. And
this man's never been identified. And once the trial got underway, it's,
you know, the police had enough on their plate and
trying three men for homicide and two trials that really
does tax the resources of even a wealthy jurisdiction, let
alone some small town without a real capital base. Everybody
on the investigative side essentially forgot about this unknown, this
unsubbed who was described by miss Kelly, but miss Kelly
described him to a T and I don't know man
like other than is miss Kelly a liar? Yeah, but
when he came clean in his confession, he's never deviated
from it and everything he said bore out. And what
would he have to gained by confabulating this imaginary guy,
you know, like it doesn't nothing he said to be clear,
and I'll get into this next episode. Nothing he said
about this unsub mitigated his own liability, and he died
to suggest this guy was on the scene when the
murders happened. He just said, Oh he's He's well known
in occult circles locally, and he basically was a sell
him a guy who got Damien into more serious occult worship.
But yeah, well we'll get into the Hutchinson testimony next time. Yeh,
that's cool, fair thing.
Speaker 2: So obviously you know people know where to find you substack,
your website, Twitter, at least for now, we'll say, I'll
make sure those are down the description I caught up.
I don't remember if I mentioned this last time. With
the two parter you did with Andy Edwards and Carl
dol great episode. I highly recommend people check that out
on your substack. That's one to pay attention to We'll
have another episode of Radio Free Chicago sooner than later.
Y'all can check that out, and maybe, who knows, we
might do a deep dive on Epstein stuff because there's
been a whole bunch of documents out and you know,
I certainly have my takeaways. I think you do as well. Anyway,
that'll come out sooner or later. As far as my stuff,
The Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen
to podcasts. If you want the episodes early in ad Free,
you have to slide me a few bucks. You can
do so on Patreon, gum Road, or Substack. Also our
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is great talking to you, man. I appreciate it everyon home,
Keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Speaker 3: Good Night
Speaker 2: The Round the Bagarian Devinent Gagarian Devient Programming