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Speaker 1: Main in a live Man like this, Man, you letting

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butterfly flapping his wing dig down in the forest. Man,

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it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man,

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nobody seen, nobody, You don't even know. Man. You a

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little story and you got that. Man. Man don't like

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a dang on the panel? Mann matter?

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Speaker 2: Man all right after uh after much fanfare. Really, people

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will not shut up about getting this episode out. Thomas,

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Welcome back to The Jay Burdon Show. It's good to

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have you. Man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for hosting me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course you know I'm joking. I'm glad that

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people have been enjoying this series covering the West Memphis three.

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But we're back to sort of resume where we left off,

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So I'll kick it to you, Thomas.

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Speaker 1: What's most significant in terms of the case against the

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West Memphis three Just an evidentiary terms we were talking

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about before went live. Obviously, an admission by a party

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opponent in the form of a confession, in this case,

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multiple confessions, that carries more evidentiary weight really than anything

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other than direct evidence, you know, direct eyewitness testimony, and

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the people who advocate for the innocence of the West

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Memphis three. Really the core of their narrative. The defense's

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case in chief, in a rebuttal if you will, is

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that Jesse mus Kelly's mentally disabled and he was coerced

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into confess by the police who were depriving him of

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counsel and frightening him and providing him essentially with testimony

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they expected him to parrot in order to incriminate himself. Well,

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there's a few things to understand about cours confessions. They

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absolutely do happen, but there's a pattern that develops there. Generally,

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they happen in the absence of circumstantial or direct evidence.

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That wasn't the case here, And almost without exception, the

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defendant immediately begins retracting his statement and insisting that he

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was coerced. Miss Kelly confessed repeatedly on record. He confessed

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to his attorneys, He confessed to the sheriff's deputies escorting

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to prison after it was convicted. He confessed to acquaintances,

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he confessed to cellmates. You know, you can't get away

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from you can't get around this, you know, And I

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think it's a matter of people watch the documentary The

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Brolinger in a Sinovsky documentary, they take that at face value,

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and they don't dig into the trial record, and they

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don't dig into the the offers a proof. They just say, oh,

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if he confessed repeatedly, he was being coerced. No, we're

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talking about discreete occurrences months apart under totally different conditions.

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And on top of that, and I'm gonna this is

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the caveat. There's some really disturbing testimony I'm gonna get

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into that's disgusting, that deals with the sensual abuse and

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murder of children. If that anything bothers you, I'm gonna

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I'm gonna we're dak language that I don't embarrass myself

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for anybody else, But it's a pretty horrible subject matter.

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To just be aware that you may want to skip

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over this or or tune out if if that upsets you.

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I also wanted to know, just as for foundational purposes.

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The overarching narrative of West Memphis three innocence advocates is

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that marrying in West Memphis was this town of religious

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this community religious fundamentalists who were bigoted Holy rollers, who

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were terrified of this phantasm of occultism, and they persecuted

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these teenage boys we've established that. Well, I can't remember

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some data, and to Gary Mees's credit, he he corralled this.

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The county where Maryon and West Memphis are located is

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Crittenden County, and as of nineteen ninety, the percentage of

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the population of Crittenden County that declared an affiliation with

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a religious congregation was well blown the national average. The

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statistical profile was forty one point seven percent compared to

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a national average of fifty point two percent. This was

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also a community that was sustained by the interstate So yes,

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it was poor, it was southern. It was not what

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you'd call a cosmopolitan have a culture. But in interstate

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towns like this, gambling's big, prostitution's big, drugs are big.

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You got all kinds of transient people, and religion actually

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isn't a big thing there. It's again below the national average.

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Now America is so large the meaning of those averages

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can be diluted. But when we're talking about it discrete

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allegation that this community was characterized by some sort of

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extreme religiosity that was well outside the norm. That's now

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that's a confabulation, just outright, you know, And I made

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the point before we went live, A lot was made

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to the fact that the state and establishing foundation for motive.

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Evidence of motive plan design is admissible because it's relevant.

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The state never needs to prove motive as an element

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of the offense, but obviously it's factually relevant. You know. Again,

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there were the trappings of occult belief structures surrounding this

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crime scene, the testimony of people who knew echoes and

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who heard his illusions and in some cases are right

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confessions to the crimes he identified as an occultist, and

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the police and the state's attorney's office proffered experts on

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occult crime. And this was held out in the Paradise

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Lost movie. As see this police department was so out

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of it and crazy they had an occult crime staff. Well,

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so did Chicago PD, so did the NYPD, so did LAPD.

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These days, whether it's one officer or one hundred officer.

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As a sign of that detail, they'd refer to it

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as as security threat group investigations that would entail everything

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from gangs to non state actors and political terrorist groups

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to cult organizations that are involved in criminal or raggeteering activity.

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It's a broad pnumber of of behaviors and structures. It's

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not merely you know, satanic crime or something an ad order,

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but the other as it may. The most significant confessions

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mss kelly confessions. He confessed on February fourth, nineteen ninety four.

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This was after his arrest. Okay, not not even addressing

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his custodial arrest. I'll accept that that's not a legitimate confession.

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I don't believe that to be the case. I think

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it satisfies all the criteria of due process. But making

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that concession the defense, let's redact that entirely. So we've

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got three confessions here. We've got a confession on February fourth,

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nineteen ninety four. We've got a confession on February eighth,

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nineteen ninety four. We got a confession on February seventeenth,

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nineteen ninety four. Now, the February fourth confession came to

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light a Shero's deputy named John Moody. In transporting miss

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Kelly post conviction. Immediately post conviction to the Arkansas Department

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of Corrections, he contacted Gary Gotchell, who was the homicide

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inspector of the West Memphis Police Department. Now this is

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relevant to miss Kelly was. These were Clay County Sheriff's deputies,

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not Crittenden County. Because miss Kelly's trial had been removed

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from Crittenden County by defense motion. They asked for a

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change of venue, alleging that miss Kelly would be prejudiced

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in Critinin County, like the potential jury pool would be

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tainted against them, and they got that motion granted. So supposedly,

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again the state's trying to frame up miss Kelly, but

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they're granting defense motions to remove the trial, you know.

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And this was pre Internet, So these Clay County jurors

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they were, they were they prejudiced against him too, because

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they're taken in by satanic panic. But that's relevant, it's material,

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it's not just a matter of trivia. So this Clay

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County Sheriff's deputy, and this was validated by a deputy

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James Lindsay, who was with this officer named of John

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Moody on the afternoon at February fourth. This is John

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Moody's testimony that he wrote to uh Giggell on the

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anting of February fourth, nineteen ninety four. Deputy James Lindsay

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and myself for transferring Jesse miss Kelly to Arkansas Department

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of Corrections At Pine Bluff. Jesse was asked if there's

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anything he wanted to say. After being assured we could

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not use anything he said against him in court, he

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chose to talk. Jason advised he had received a call

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from Jason Baldwin. This is speaking on the date of

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the murders. May fifth, nineteen ninety three. Jesse advised he'd

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received a call from Jason Baldwin ask him if he

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wanted to go to West Memphis to quote get some girls. Jesse, Damien,

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and Jason met on a local road on May fifth.

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Sometime in the evening, Jesse claimed that he'd been drinking

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Evan Williams whiskey. This becomes material that he was drinking

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Evan Williams, Jesse clan had been drinking Evan Williams whiskey,

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and that a Missus Hutchinson had bought him and Jason

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and Damien beer and whiskey. Jason and Damon were drinking beer.

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Jesse also stated that they had smoked two marijuana joints

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that afternoon. Jesse said that he had known Jason Baldwin

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since the sixth grade and did not know Damien that well,

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but that Damien would drink human blood. Jesse stated that

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after all meeting on the road, the three boys walked

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to the woods and were sitting in the water. Three

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young boys were seen from a distance when Damien told

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Jesse and Jason to hide. Jesse said they were hiding

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behind bushy is when Damien grabbed Michael Moore, one of

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the young boys. The two other young boys started hitting

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Damien trying to help their friend, and this is what

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Jesse and Jason jumped out and helped Damien beat them.

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Jesse advised he helped hold them and beat them, but

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had no part in raping or killing them. Jesse advised

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two of the boys were raped and that Jesse and

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Jason were taking turns beating the two boys. Jesse said

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the two boys were still alive at this time. Jesse

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said the boys were kept quiet by putting hands over

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their mouths, and that Jason and Damian had to use

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their shirts and that at times their face was pushed

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down into the ground. Used their shirts for It's not clear,

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but he means to gag them, Jesse was asked. So

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the boys were kept under control while being raped and

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not tied yet, and he stated, quote, they were like

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puppies when he whoop a puppy and tell it to

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stay at will. Jesse did say that he had to

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catch Michael Moore, but did not say at what point.

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Jesse claims that third boy was never raped. Jesse said

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at one point that Jason one of the boys in

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a headlock, and he believes that Jason had sexually assaulted him.

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At one point, Jesse said that Jason had a quote

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buck looking knife and had castrated the boy and quote

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thrown it into the weeds, meaning the knife. The boy

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was alive and tied. At this point, Jesse was surprised

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blood did not get out on him because blood was

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everywhere and he was only about to carlinth the way.

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Jesse said they threw the boy into the water and

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he was still spirming in the water, at which point

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Jesse said he left. Jesse said he believed the other

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two boys were not conscious when he left, but they

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were not yet in the water. Jesse stated that Jason

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called him later and that's why he left. Jesse told

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Jason he could not stand to watch any longer. He

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claims the only other contact here with Jason and Damien.

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Subsequent were a couple of times at the skating rink,

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but they were mad at him. Jesse claims his lawyers

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asked him he was innocent, and Jesse said that he

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had lied to them. Jesse said he had lied about

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the time of the crime and the bindings used on

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the victims to quote trick the police and see if

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they were lying. Jesse claims, who felt sorry for what

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has happened, and talks if he wants to testify against

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the other boys, they will not go free, and to

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help himself. Now, the claim I assume of defense proponents

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is that these deputies were lying. But again, this case

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was potentially a death penalty case, and Echols was sentenced

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in death. So you've got to believe that these two

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deputy sheriffs, who presumably didn't even know Inspector Derry Gotchell

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until this trial underway, and even then, even at the

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time of writing this letter, they might not have even

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known him. They might have just known of him from

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a totally different county. They've got no connection to the case.

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You've got to believe that they spontaneously decided to make

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up a story commit perjury framed jess he Mus Kelly

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and the other two defendants again in a death penalty

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case where potentially it'd be availed to not just losing

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their jobs and their pensions, potentially decades in prison just

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to frame these random kids. I mean, like that is

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that remotely credible? I I've never heard of anything like that.

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I mean, people whose strange things. But that's I guess

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what the claim is is that Clay County, like Crittenden,

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was just full of holy roller, bigot, satanic panic victims

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who would stop at nothing to the frame innocent people

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for occult crime. But again I don't I don't find

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that credible. The second confession, I mean, this is the

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third total confession. This is the second confession that again

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I think is unimpeded, should be credible. It was February eight,

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nineteen ninety four. This is when Jesse mss kelly was

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at Pine Bluff, which was his destination prison to serve

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his sentence or strike that I think it was a

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feeder prison, pending classification of his security level and things.

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Because in the case the diagnostic unit, that kind of

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mean that he was under psychiatric evaluation based on his

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behavior and conduct or something like suicidal ideation or because

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it was a feeder institution pending classification. Dan Stidham, who

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was one of miss Kelly's defense attorneys, he was not

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a public defender. What a lot of jurisdiction to do

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is they assign the courtal assigned an attorney in private

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practice to represent indigent defendants on a case by days basis.

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And as a member of the bar in good standing,

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you know, it's it's part of your duty the community

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as a legal professional. Women officer of the court. And

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00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:21,400
Stidham was. He was a younger guy, I think he

238
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,359
was about thirty, but he was well regarded. He he

239
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:34,599
put on a zealous defense. So this is Stidham's interview

240
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:41,960
with miss Kelly. Mind you, Stidham was his lawyer and

241
00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:46,039
his trial advocate, and he just sat through months of

242
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:52,000
the proceedings with him. This is Stidham talking. It's this

243
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,000
is three twenty pm February nineteen eighty four at the

244
00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:02,680
Pine Bluff, Arkansas Department of Correction, an diagnostic unit. Stidham, Okay, Jesse.

245
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,960
A few minutes ago, I asked you about making some

246
00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:09,119
statements to the officers on the transport of view from

247
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,200
Pigo to Pine Bluff. You told me that you had

248
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,240
told them some stuff. Is that correct, instead of speaking

249
00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:21,559
of what was just relayed in that letter. So apparently

250
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,920
Jesse had relayed to him that he made these statements,

251
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:34,160
further validating them, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. And at

252
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,039
first he told me that you were just making it up.

253
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,279
They were aligned to them. And then you placed your

254
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:42,880
hand on a Bible and told me that you were

255
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,759
there when those boys got killed. Miss Kelly. Yes, Sir.

256
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,880
What's the truth? Stidham? What's the truth? Jesse? I want

257
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,480
to know the truth, Miss Kelly. The truth is me

258
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,759
and Jason and Damien Dunnett. Stidham, you were there when

259
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:07,480
the boys were killed, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. Now

260
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,160
it's going to be very important for you to tell

261
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,400
me why it was that he'd been maintaining you weren't

262
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,880
there all this time, Miss Kelly. I was scared, Stidham.

263
00:22:16,039 --> 00:22:20,279
What were you scared of? Miss Kelly? I always lied,

264
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,640
and I hadn't ever put my hand on the Bible

265
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,839
and swore nobody didn't tell me to do that. If

266
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,799
they would have told me that at first, I would

267
00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:30,319
have done it. Nobody told me to put my hand

268
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,079
on the Bible. Stidham Okay, so basically been lying to

269
00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:37,960
me and mister Crow, mister Crow was co counsel for

270
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,680
the defense in the past seven or so months, about

271
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,559
not being there when you were in fact there, miss Kelly, Yes, sir,

272
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:54,359
I mean I heard it alleged by one of these

273
00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:00,200
post conviction attorneys. Oh, miss Kelly's mentally retarded. So he

274
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,720
he thought that Stidham was the police. Get the fuck

275
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:07,160
out of here. That's that's that's ridiculous. I mean, first

276
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,799
of all, again, as a matter of law, miss Kelly's

277
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:14,240
not retarded, and I don't think people understand. Look, miss

278
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,079
Kelly was the son of a felon, and I've got

279
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,039
no standing to put Shane on that. But this kid

280
00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:22,720
was in and out of the systems to his old

281
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,200
family for his whole life. Guys who are in the

282
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,039
system on phony charges, they know the law better than

283
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,039
your like like your average like a hull rant lawyer

284
00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:35,839
on the criminal side. This idea that miss Kelly had

285
00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:40,480
no understanding that this was his lawyer, that he that

286
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,720
that this man was his advocate and not the police

287
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:45,000
or a state's attorney, I mean that that's preposterous beyond

288
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:47,680
a belief, basically saying that this man was barely sentient.

289
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,039
You know. So not only did he validate his confession

290
00:23:54,559 --> 00:24:00,519
to the sheriff's deputies, he confessed again and the presence

291
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:05,960
of Stidham at the diagnostic unit of the prison. I mean,

292
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,359
what what what was the coercion there? He told Stidham

293
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,359
he wanted to confess to unburdened himself or whatever. I mean,

294
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,880
as we go on, we'll see. I he was looking

295
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,279
for a sentence production and so I'm going to concession

296
00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:24,440
if you're willing to testify against baldwin an echoes. But

297
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:32,799
because it may you know, I you can't uh that

298
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,240
the claim isn't that you know, while he was looking

299
00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:41,480
to he was looking for a favorable uh outcome at

300
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,240
that point because he'd already been convicted. No, that doesn't

301
00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:47,480
that doesn't hold up. But I mean that's not even

302
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,680
what's being alleged. Just being alleged is that you know,

303
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000
he wasn't capable of understanding that he was in jeopardy.

304
00:24:54,079 --> 00:24:58,640
And you know, the the reality of what the role

305
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:01,720
was of of his attorney, you know, cont for the

306
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,680
police in the state's attorney. It's not it's not remotely credible.

307
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,160
It's not a good faith argument. And then, uh, this

308
00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:14,599
becomes important as he goes on because he describes the

309
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,200
He describes to Stidham exactly what happened, and this becomes significant. Okay,

310
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,559
as I'm skipping ahead a bit because there's semi irrelevant testimony,

311
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,480
but miss Kelly testifies. You know what he related to

312
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:32,960
the to the sheriff's deputies. You know, we went, we

313
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,759
went to the woods, we were drinking. The boys walked

314
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:43,759
up and here Stidham says, did they come up on

315
00:25:43,759 --> 00:25:45,920
their bicycles meaning the boys, or did they walk up

316
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,440
miss Kelly, they came up on their bicycles and laid

317
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:54,400
their bikes down. Stidham? Can I stop right there? Did

318
00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:01,119
y'all smoke any dope that day? Miss Kelly? Jason, No,

319
00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:05,160
he don't, but to my knowledge he don't. And then

320
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,279
it's unintelligible Stidham, So y'all didn't smoke any marijuana that day,

321
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,400
just whiskey and beer. Where's the whiskey bottle, miss Kelly.

322
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:20,119
Whiskey bottle busted? Stidham? You busted it, miss Kelly? Yeah,

323
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,759
when did you do that miss Kelly going back when

324
00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:27,119
I was going back home after I seen what happened,

325
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,000
made me mad. This is significant because after this discussion,

326
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,200
Stidham went to the location where miss Kelly says, when

327
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,400
I was walking home after the murder, I was distraught.

328
00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,240
Well words, I was mad, so I smashed the bottle

329
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,400
under this viaduct. Stidham went there with the assistant, say

330
00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:55,720
Sony Fogelman. They retrieved a piece that Evan Williams bottle

331
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,920
and it had a fragment of the label on it.

332
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,279
They took that fragment to the liquor store. They mashed

333
00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:08,079
it with an Evan Williams bottle, and Fogeman actually stated

334
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:12,200
off the record, he said he saw Stidham just kind

335
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960
of collapse at that point, like you get almost as

336
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,799
a perceptible sigh, because he realized that, you know, Stidham

337
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,440
was one of these guys who actually believed in his

338
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:28,480
client's innocence. Now, it might not seem like much to

339
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:32,519
somebody who's never defended a criminal case or to talk

340
00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:37,039
to these kinds of people. The devil is it is

341
00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:41,680
truly in the details. Ms Kelly would not have made

342
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,400
up this whole lurid a horrible, horrible story about this

343
00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:49,079
sexual assault, murdered children, but then told the truth about Oh,

344
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,000
I smashed his whiskey bottle. No, he'spinding a picture of

345
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,880
exactly what he did. They tortured and murdered those boys

346
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,440
when he was walking home. That's exactly what he did.

347
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,079
He smashes him in Williams bottle, and months later a

348
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,640
fragment was still there, you know. And like I said,

349
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,279
I I know that people say, logically that doesn't follow,

350
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,519
but it does. In terms of the criminal mind or

351
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:24,920
the the psychopathic personality. It absolutely is material. I mean,

352
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,079
it's material anyway because of his testimony, but you know

353
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,640
what I mean, it's the devil's in the details. And

354
00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:35,240
I found that fascinating what Folgomen relayed that. I mean,

355
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,599
obviously that wouldn't have been admissible in court, even where

356
00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:42,880
miss Hilly already not not already convicted. But you know,

357
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,160
and interestingly, you know, the remainder, like I said it,

358
00:28:52,839 --> 00:29:03,319
he reiterates the stitum, the nature of the injuries sustained

359
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:07,279
by the victims, and it's it's more detailed, but it's

360
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:13,599
ichdetical to the fact pattern that he relayed to the

361
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:22,519
deputies in the letter, and again what I think it's

362
00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:30,799
highly material also that, if not as a matter of culpability,

363
00:29:31,839 --> 00:29:36,319
just in terms of the dynamic between the defendants, it

364
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:39,559
was Baldwin that escalated. Baldwin is the one who started

365
00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:43,920
cutting the kid, and miss Kelly claims he was shocked

366
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,720
by this, which I believe is true. That doesn't mitigate

367
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:52,640
his responsibility. But you know, Baldwin is the one who

368
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,559
kind of remains in the proverbial shadows because Ecchos is

369
00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:03,440
such a a bizarre person who enjoys flying his freak

370
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,000
flag over a pure aisle. Let me be. Miss Kelly

371
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,079
is held out as this sort of Boo Radley figure,

372
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,839
like this retard who was brutalized by the police. Baldwin

373
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,200
plays it off like he's just kind of this simple man,

374
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:20,240
you know, with a mullet and a soft Southern drill

375
00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:23,680
and well, collegey, I've got convicted something I didn't do,

376
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,000
all right, riddle need this Baldwen if you look at

377
00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:31,640
him as a skinny white boy. He goes to a

378
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:38,839
southern maximum security penitentiary for a rape murder of children,

379
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,599
and the dude thrives there. Not only does he not

380
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,400
get shanked by some click who whacks Chomo's to keep

381
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,799
him off the yard. He doesn't check into PC, he

382
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:59,559
doesn't get turned out, he doesn't get whacked. This dude

383
00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:04,400
is such a fucking savage that even with that Chomo jacket,

384
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,960
he's good. Like, what kind of psycho was that guy? Like?

385
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:13,640
Think about that? And Mees made that point, you know,

386
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:24,319
and it's Eccles interestingly slipped up because he and Eckles

387
00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:29,039
wanted to cop the Alford plea when they got released.

388
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:31,839
What a lot of people don't understand is that they

389
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,599
weren't exonerated and they didn't prevail on appeal. Essentially, eccles

390
00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:47,880
defense team they were able to corral enough expert testimony

391
00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:52,319
through these you know, these these these comparatively lavish funds

392
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:58,119
they received to do so to probably win a new

393
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:06,920
trial based on DNA evidence, which didn't alter the basis

394
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,359
of the conviction as determined by the tri of fact.

395
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,880
But under Arkansas a law, you're entitled to a hearing

396
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:27,680
on DNA evidence the technology to analyze which was not

397
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,079
available at the time of trial. So the State of Arkansas,

398
00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:37,799
they basically took the perspective of you can probably get

399
00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:40,680
a new trial, and you might be able to win.

400
00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:46,880
We're going to cut our losses if your client will

401
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,680
stipulate to the facts and plead no contest, which is

402
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,119
when Alfred plea is. Baldwin didn't want to take it.

403
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:00,960
He wanted to keep sitting in prison and see if

404
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,440
he could when you know, on a post conviction, a

405
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,039
straight post conviction appeal. So he Echoes this big falling

406
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:12,519
out and then Echos said on twenty twenty or whatever

407
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:16,920
he said. You know, Jason love prison. He loved prison.

408
00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:24,799
Think about that. You know, the truth is not what

409
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,759
people think it is. And a lot of instances were

410
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:38,599
psychologically abnormal people are are the subject matter. But this

411
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,359
is important. On top of being just an evil person

412
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,039
and a devian, a total piece of shit, Echoes is

413
00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:52,039
at a park Baldwin and contrast is a very frightening individual,

414
00:33:53,480 --> 00:34:01,680
even to his fellow cons you know. And incidentally, Baldo

415
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,240
was the youngest of the defendants. He refused to say

416
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,960
a word to the police from the time he was

417
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,039
arrested until he was convicted and sentenced to life in

418
00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:15,320
prison without parole. He didn't say a word. I mean,

419
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,320
that's most sixteen seventeen year olds aren't like even a

420
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,679
hood dudes, even guys who've done third in the street,

421
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,960
even dudes who've dropped bodies generally don't know that kind

422
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,320
of fortitude. But yeah, and interestingly, that's what Folbhaman said too.

423
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:38,360
He said Baldwin never said a word. He just he

424
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,960
just when we told him he's being a resident for murder,

425
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,000
he said, I want to see a lawyer. That was it.

426
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,559
Then he goes to prison that was not get turned

427
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,599
out or killed again. He finds a home there, he

428
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:56,119
thrives despite a trombo jacket. It's incredible, but that shows

429
00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:59,440
you what kind of monster the guy is. There's not

430
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,559
even cool about out there. I want to make it clear,

431
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,480
like he's he's so abnormal and so deviant. He eats

432
00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:09,400
people and that's what kept him alive in the joint,

433
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:17,119
not just alive, but apparently somewhat content. But moving on

434
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:28,480
from my polemic, the third uh fashion again not the

435
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:33,000
third total, but for our purposes, I believe he's the

436
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:45,679
the strongest declarations by miss Kelly of his own palpability.

437
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:49,159
I'm just finding my place here. I'm sorry about this man. Yes,

438
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,639
I think I alluded to before we went live, before

439
00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:03,880
I believe as a jury was being unpaneled because Eccles

440
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:11,880
and h Baldwin there there they were tried together, which

441
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:18,039
was an interesting tactical call, but it in their case

442
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:21,559
that made sense. I the state was reading when the

443
00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:27,000
lines of state was hoping that Eccles in Baldwin would

444
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:36,760
their respective counsels that uh attack the other and basically

445
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,599
would make the state's case in chief for them. That

446
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:44,360
didn't really happen, but it didn't need to either, because

447
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,000
Eccles took the stand and really hanged himself and bald

448
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:53,199
was sort of invisible through the whole trial, which was

449
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:59,480
a strategy, but he it basically echos got him convicted too. Okay,

450
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:13,559
But on February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four, Miss Kelly confessed

451
00:37:13,599 --> 00:37:20,760
yet again. President was Stidham's co counsel, Greg Crow, as

452
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,360
well as a representative of the Clay County state's attorney

453
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,199
named Joe Calvin, and a Crittenden County prosecutor Brent Davis.

454
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,920
Because it was a Critton County case but had been

455
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,639
removed to Clay County. You had both the offices represented,

456
00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:38,719
which is standard that there's a change of venue in

457
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,000
a criminal case. There's just the way they do it,

458
00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:45,039
not just for jurisdictional reasoning, but it's sort of parlay

459
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:50,880
of a sort between jurisdictions and any event. Almost certainly

460
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:56,559
what miss Kelly was trying to do here is gave

461
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,440
some sort of leverage for a sentence reduction, come clean

462
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:04,199
on the record with the state present two so that

463
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,719
there was no doubt whatsoever about what his testimony was,

464
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,639
and in exchange for a reduction from I think sixty years,

465
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,679
he caught sixty or eighty years. You know he'd be

466
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:25,280
willing to testify against echoes in Baldwin. And to be

467
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,000
clear too, even if there hadn't been the agreement that

468
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:38,519
this testimony wouldn't be entered into the record if miss

469
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:44,360
Kelly refused to testify, the confrontation clause or preclude the

470
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,119
statement from me admitted you have a right to con

471
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:53,119
front of your accuser, and a criminal case testimony this

472
00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:55,239
sort can't be introduced unless you have the right to

473
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:03,880
cross examine. To claren okay, and owing to unavailability and

474
00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,639
or refusal to testify, you know that's off the table.

475
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,719
But undoubtedly this is what miss Kelly was going for

476
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,000
so yet again, Okay, here we have two law enforcement

477
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:22,320
representatives of the respective states, Toney's offices President, but you

478
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,599
also have miss Kelly's defense team present. And again this

479
00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:33,760
didn't come from Stidham. Stidham objected to miss Kelly saying anything,

480
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,159
as any defense counsel would. So this came from miss Kelly.

481
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,079
This guy who supposedly is this retard who can't even

482
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:43,039
tell the difference between his own counsel and the police.

483
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:47,519
He's devising in his mind ways to get immunity on

484
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,840
an evidence proffer so that he can get his sentence reduced.

485
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,360
As he's pretty sophisticated for a retard, doesn't it. I think.

486
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,480
So that's the kind of stuff that conniving, felonious UH

487
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,119
types of people do, exactly like miss Kelly is. So

488
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,800
this is eight oh two pm, February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four.

489
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:24,159
This is UH Brad Davis, the UH Brent Davis, Crittin

490
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,639
and prosecutor swearing Jesse miss Kelly in. He swears to

491
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:32,079
all the truth but truth as Oh be God, Miss Kelly, Yes, sir,

492
00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:37,280
I do. This is Brent Calvin again. However, purpose of

493
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,039
the record, I went to reflect number one that mister

494
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:44,719
Stillman and myself have talked with Judge Burnett presiding Judge

495
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:54,880
over Eccles and following his case, and advised him with

496
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,840
the proceedings. After discussing this with him, he approved or

497
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,159
said that we could take a statement with mister miss

498
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,559
Kelly's attorney's presence Stidham, over my objections, Calvin or mister

499
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:21,719
Stidham's objections, moving on well, detesting the recording Stidham, Now

500
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,760
we listen very careful what I tell you. Okay. I

501
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,719
told you I had some new evidences. That correct, miss Kelly.

502
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,159
That's what you said, Stidham, That I told the new

503
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:35,599
evidence may I planned filing a motion for a new

504
00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:37,639
trial and that the court may give you a new

505
00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:41,559
trial based on this evidence. That correct, miss Kelly, That's

506
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:44,360
what you said. So Stidham's advising him. Look, I think

507
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,599
we got basis for an appeal. Don't go through with

508
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:49,639
this because you're gonna hang yourself. Even if this profher

509
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,280
isn't admissible and it's you and of itself, we're gonna,

510
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,559
you know, move beyond this. So miss Kelly goes on

511
00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:04,320
to reiterate because the state asks him if he in

512
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,840
fact attested to what was claimed by the officers who

513
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:14,280
were transporting him on February fourth, nineteen ninety four, which

514
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,360
is the subject of a letter to fold them in

515
00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:21,760
mis Kelly acknowledges, yes, he said that. Then he acknowledges

516
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,480
the validity of what he said days later to Stidham,

517
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:29,000
invalidating that that was in fact a true aun A

518
00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:33,960
statement and that he did render that account and culpatory

519
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,400
account of the murders, the rapes and murders to these

520
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:51,880
deputy sheriffs. This confession is uh and somebody's even more detailed.

521
00:42:53,480 --> 00:43:00,199
It's obvious that even though Stidham advised him not to

522
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,360
do this, when it begin clear who's going to go

523
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,920
through with it, Obviously Stidham wanted the factual record to

524
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,079
be as clear as possible because of your client as

525
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:12,880
hell bent on going through with this kind of gamble.

526
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,639
It's imperative that courting out the sciet he's perjuring himself,

527
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,880
because then all deals are off, regardless of what was

528
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:35,159
negotiated previously. And interestingly, he reiterates that the anecdote about

529
00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:39,119
the Evan Williams bottle, you know, and again I know

530
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:41,760
that because I've heard people raise this, not just to me,

531
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:49,599
but in the course of some of this footage, I've

532
00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:53,000
seen a fogman and others instead of himself talking about

533
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,199
what he perceived of the significance of that admission. If

534
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,719
people either don't understand why they're placing this emphasis on

535
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,119
that or they dismiss it, it's it's relevant. Okay, It's

536
00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:07,800
highly relevant. And that's why he keeps coming back to it. Okay.

537
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,960
I all I can tell you is that it's it's

538
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,719
a it's it's an aspect of the human mind when

539
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:18,960
confronted with evidence of guilt, and even a you know,

540
00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:23,119
even even very disturbed people generally the guilty conscience. Okay.

541
00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:31,320
And it's it's a recurring pattern, you know. And his

542
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,840
storials are made the same Clay County Stays turned to

543
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:43,559
ask some picking up the narrative right where miss Kelly,

544
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,239
Baldwin and Ecchos enter the woods, and he says, yeah,

545
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,880
we sat in the water. So Miss Kelly says, we

546
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,000
sat there and started drinking. Though he heard some noise.

547
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,760
Three old boys came up and we jumped them, you know.

548
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,400
And then he goes through. He never waivers, you know,

549
00:44:57,159 --> 00:45:00,360
I beat the one boy at ecchoes, you know, grab

550
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,239
the others. Then Baldwin intervened. Then the one boy ran

551
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:11,000
I brought him back. I saw Echols molesting the kid,

552
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:13,360
and and then I saw Baldwin's knife come out. He

553
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,320
never he never waivers, and he never changes the facts.

554
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,800
He never changes which boy he assaulted or the order

555
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,400
in which these horrors are perpetuated on the victims. And

556
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,199
he's telling the truth. I don't see what's impeachable about

557
00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:38,800
his testimony, you know, And I, yeah, I don't know

558
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,000
what else to say about it.

559
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I want to mention, uh,

560
00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:51,000
when discussing this case is one of the experts who

561
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:54,840
was called to bear you know, one of the reasons

562
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,599
that these guys got out, Richard Afshi, who's sort of

563
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:03,840
an infamous figure. He's been called in tactically at other

564
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,320
kind of high profile cases.

565
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,519
Speaker 1: Uh.

566
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:10,199
Speaker 2: I'm not not trying to put you on the spot,

567
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,400
but do you have anything to say about about that guy,

568
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,599
because obviously, you know, as we go deeper into this

569
00:46:14,599 --> 00:46:16,800
occult series, his name will come up again.

570
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: He was big as a defense expert in the McMartin trial,

571
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,000
which is one of the longest trials in criminal history.

572
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,599
It was even longer than the trial of Richard Ramirez

573
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,440
and of Angela Bono was one of the whole side

574
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,239
of stranglers. Part of I had also the peculiarity of

575
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:48,519
the California Rules of Evidence, which allows ridiculously the free

576
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:51,079
discovery rights. I mean, I'm pro defense as can be,

577
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,639
and I but at some point, you know, enough has

578
00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:59,920
got to be enough. If she was very much behind

579
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:09,719
that this effort to discredit the testimony of people who

580
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:17,199
claimed that recovered memories or exposure to memory triggers had

581
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:29,079
allowed them to identify, you know, their assailants. He was

582
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:36,880
very big in discrediting the entire repressed memory narrative, which

583
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,599
had real world consequences because it was a big controversy

584
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:45,280
at law whether that sort of testimony could be proffered,

585
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:53,280
whether somebody could say, well, I didn't know, I didn't

586
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,159
have knowledge of this, I didn't have knowledge of the

587
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:01,079
person who assaulted me, or I didn't knowledge of the events.

588
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,440
There's a subject matter this trial. As long as a

589
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:06,679
veil is subjected to a memory trigger by a diagnostician

590
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,880
or a psychiatrist or some sort of therapist trained in

591
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,920
the diagnostic criteria, and then subsequently I remembered these things

592
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,880
that I'm attesting to today. She did a lot to

593
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:31,760
get that kind of testimony removed from courtroom practice. But

594
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:38,519
he also he didn't frame it this way, obviously, but

595
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,880
where children were involved in testifying, he basically made it

596
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,679
so that there's a there's a presumption that the state

597
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,239
actors of the state, whether they're police or states attorneys,

598
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:56,880
are essentially always leading child witnesses, and that children, based

599
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:05,440
upon a combination of social conditioning and immaturity of the

600
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,320
conscious mind, they will always try and please adults and

601
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,000
always agree with authority figures, even in the absence of

602
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:21,840
direct coercive persuasion. So that is what kind of put

603
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,480
him on the map. In some ways, he's kind of

604
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,719
the defense Council's answer to park beats, you know, like

605
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,800
if you need in the aftermath of the John Hinckley trial,

606
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,199
you know, Hinkley was really the last eye profile defendant

607
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:43,079
to prevail on an insanity defense because people were outraged

608
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:45,519
after that. How can you take a shot at the

609
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:49,599
President of United States and prevail on an insanity defense? Now,

610
00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:52,800
mind you, even if you're prevailing an insanity defense, that

611
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,360
means you're spending probably the rest of your life in

612
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,960
a high security psych ward, which is probably worse than prison.

613
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,719
But I get it. I get the sentiment, and I

614
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,119
think that there was a lot of pseuito science that

615
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:11,119
went into Because insanity defense is an affirmative defense, the

616
00:50:11,159 --> 00:50:16,280
eventually burden shifts to the defense. Okay, this is essential

617
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,480
to understanding the process. But to bring it back to

618
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:30,880
off She, one area of proported expertise that he also

619
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,880
made a very outside impact in was the way in

620
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:48,719
which coercion while under questioning and custody is understood. Off

621
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,519
She went above and beyond what even most pro defense

622
00:50:52,639 --> 00:51:02,119
experts would say constitutes a coercive environment as regards criminal interrogations.

623
00:51:02,679 --> 00:51:08,880
Obviously everybody can imagine is something like John Bergen and

624
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,320
the Red Squad, like what they used to do to people.

625
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,920
They literally taking someone hutter at and wiring up his

626
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,920
private parts through a field telephone like he's a Viet

627
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,679
Cong and and shocking him or whacking him with a

628
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:28,519
phone book. Okay, I mean that's obvious corision, but obviously said, well,

629
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,039
just the very fact of being in custody is coursive.

630
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:38,000
So when you're dealing with people who have been availed

631
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:45,119
to say class or racial oppression within the commonly accepted

632
00:51:45,159 --> 00:51:48,920
paradigm of what the regime considers to be good sociology. Well,

633
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,639
they're gonna have this instinctive fear that these police officer

634
00:51:51,679 --> 00:51:54,880
are gonna hurt them. Or you're talking about somebody like

635
00:51:54,920 --> 00:52:02,400
Jesse Missus Kelly, who is mean until he's subnormal and

636
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:07,400
has an instinctive fear of the police. He's going to

637
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:12,079
do everything he can to please his interigators. And just

638
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:18,480
the very fact of him being deprived of a representative advocate,

639
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,559
even if he doesn't in vocus right to council, and

640
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:24,320
even if he's of age and majority, that itself places

641
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:30,320
him under course of pressure. Now obviously a lot of

642
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:36,400
this is nonsense, you know, but that's the problem with

643
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:43,440
courtroom practice, particularly in criminal law. Criminal law can become

644
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:47,400
very complicated with its fact patterns, but it's not that

645
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:51,199
complicated in terms of the letter of the law. It's

646
00:52:51,239 --> 00:53:02,320
not you got the Bill of rights. You're basically, if

647
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,280
you're defense counsel, you're doing everything you can to get

648
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:15,679
evidence suppressed on pre trial motion because then you're essentially

649
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,559
defanging the case in chi for the prosecution. But failing that,

650
00:53:23,039 --> 00:53:27,800
you're just arguing, especially in a horrible homicide case like this,

651
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:33,760
you're basically just arguing facts and circumstances and mitigation, and

652
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:42,679
you're tagging the credibility of the state's witnesses. So experts

653
00:53:42,679 --> 00:53:48,079
have this outsized significance. And not only do they have

654
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:52,719
an outside significance, but you're dealing with subject areas that

655
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:59,320
are not based on empirical criteria. They're often based on

656
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,559
pseudoscience or speculation. We even if they're valid, they're based

657
00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:10,000
on a witness saying. I'm an expert because over so

658
00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:14,880
many decades, I've interviewed so many criminal personalities or psychotics

659
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:19,400
or subnormal people accused of crimes like Jesimus Kelly. And

660
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:25,679
based on that experience and based on my understanding of

661
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,320
the criteria that break down the psychic defenses of somebody

662
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,199
under interrogation, this constitutes coercion. According to the spirit of

663
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:41,960
the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment,

664
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:51,400
as well as evolving understand evolving standards of ethics and decency.

665
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:54,679
You know, it's bullshit.

666
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,559
Speaker 2: So one more thing I want to get into before

667
00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:02,280
we talk talk about you know, what happened to these

668
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,239
these men once they got out of prison. What do

669
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:11,480
you make of the character of Vicky Hutchinson for a

670
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:14,639
little bit of context. Basically, she gets pulled into this story.

671
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:18,079
She's you know, been called into the police station for

672
00:55:18,559 --> 00:55:20,639
you know, I think, being accused of, you know, robbing

673
00:55:20,679 --> 00:55:23,280
her employer. Her son is in the room with her,

674
00:55:23,559 --> 00:55:25,920
you know, causing so much of a distraction they can't

675
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,679
even administer the polygraph test. And during that conversation, this son,

676
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,039
I think he was seven at the time, says that

677
00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:35,079
the boys who were killed, who he was, you know,

678
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:39,920
allegedly friends with, were killed by Spanish speaking Satanists. So

679
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,239
of course, you know, the police pounce on this.

680
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:43,079
Speaker 1: Uh.

681
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 2: They you know, they have this woman, you know, smuggle

682
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,360
a recording device into her house, you know, invite echols

683
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,159
over to try and get some sort of incriminating evidence.

684
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:57,400
And then this is where stories diverge. Uh the police say,

685
00:55:57,599 --> 00:56:01,039
you know, the recording was inaudible. H much later, in

686
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:04,519
two thousand and three, I believe she completely and totally recanted.

687
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:07,719
She said everything was, you know, completely made up. She

688
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,199
also makes some kind of outrageous claims about the police

689
00:56:11,639 --> 00:56:14,199
that she says that the police were, you know, using

690
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,320
the suspects as human dartboards, uh, and that she was

691
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:24,960
similarly intimidated. This particular character is often featured in discussions

692
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,639
of how this case has been you know, quote unquote debunked.

693
00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:30,039
So I'm curious what do you make of that detail.

694
00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:35,199
Speaker 1: Vickie Hutchinson, she's the missus Hutchinson or the miss Hutchinson

695
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:38,679
who bought the Ewen Williams whiskey and the beer for

696
00:56:41,039 --> 00:56:47,239
Baldwin and Eccles. Miss Kelly she she was it just

697
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,599
kind of sad and pathetic lady. The totally general alcoholic,

698
00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:57,119
like blackout drunk alcoholic. She had charges from Bezelman, some

699
00:56:57,199 --> 00:57:01,079
restaurants she was working at. She appropriated a credit card

700
00:57:01,199 --> 00:57:07,199
number and taking money or made fraudulent charges. And yeah,

701
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:14,079
she was a single mother, barely functional person. She lived

702
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:18,559
at the Highland Trailer Park and Miss Kelly she'd buy him.

703
00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:21,840
I think they were probably, I mean, she was. She

704
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,920
was this lady in her thirties, but she'd earlate twenties

705
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,519
or around thirty. But she'd hang around with teenagers. And

706
00:57:29,599 --> 00:57:32,039
you can put two of it together. Obviously, Miss Kelly

707
00:57:32,079 --> 00:57:33,880
and some of their boys were, you know, messing around

708
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,920
with her, and she used to baby Miss Kelly used

709
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,679
to babysit her kid sometimes and she'd buy him wicker

710
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:47,239
and stuff. Okay, when she was being interrogated by the

711
00:57:47,239 --> 00:57:51,760
police or when she was checking in bas you know,

712
00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:55,079
incident to her pre trial probation or whatever. There is

713
00:57:55,119 --> 00:57:59,159
such a thing, particularly in smaller jurisdictions, but not exclusively,

714
00:57:59,719 --> 00:58:02,119
and especially people who are in the drug court program

715
00:58:02,239 --> 00:58:07,920
or who are in some phase of evaluation for substance

716
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:14,039
abuvious enter being charged. But yeah, her her son who

717
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,400
it seems like a very sad story. He obviously had

718
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,280
all kinds of problems and you know, owing to his circumstances,

719
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,360
you're only about seven years old. He suddenly pipes up

720
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:31,800
saying he knows what happened to his three friends and saying, well,

721
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,079
there's this there's this playhouse or the shed in the

722
00:58:35,119 --> 00:58:40,519
woods where you know, people engage in these bizarre rituals,

723
00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:46,159
and uh, he went under this crazy story about Spanish

724
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:52,239
speaking men and uh, some sort of bonfire where deities

725
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,480
are being raised, and then his friends being tied up

726
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:59,800
and shot by guys in in in masks, and I mean,

727
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:06,199
obviously a disturbed little kid who couldn't distinguish back from reality.

728
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:09,679
But when he started talking about some sort of cult

729
00:59:09,719 --> 00:59:12,159
activity in the woods, and I'll get into this next

730
00:59:12,159 --> 00:59:15,639
episode if you're okay with taking this to another episode, Okay,

731
00:59:15,719 --> 00:59:19,039
Jesse miss Kelly when he was confronted with you know,

732
00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:25,679
Gary Gtchell obviously was a veteran cop, and he says

733
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,800
to him, you know how deep was this cult activity

734
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,320
of Echos. Miss Kelly says, well, sometimes we just take

735
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,199
girls into the woods and basically have like orgies with them.

736
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,519
And he's like, Eccles believed in the Satanist stuff, but

737
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:44,840
I didn't. But then he references this older guy who

738
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,960
miss Kelly claimed got Echos into the Crowley stuff. And

739
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:56,199
this man's never been identified. And once the trial got underway, it's,

740
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,679
you know, the police had enough on their plate and

741
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,440
trying three men for homicide and two trials that really

742
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,920
does tax the resources of even a wealthy jurisdiction, let

743
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:16,880
alone some small town without a real capital base. Everybody

744
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,159
on the investigative side essentially forgot about this unknown, this

745
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:26,199
unsubbed who was described by miss Kelly, but miss Kelly

746
01:00:26,239 --> 01:00:31,480
described him to a T and I don't know man

747
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:39,280
like other than is miss Kelly a liar? Yeah, but

748
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,400
when he came clean in his confession, he's never deviated

749
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,639
from it and everything he said bore out. And what

750
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:50,960
would he have to gained by confabulating this imaginary guy,

751
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,000
you know, like it doesn't nothing he said to be clear,

752
01:00:55,199 --> 01:00:57,519
and I'll get into this next episode. Nothing he said

753
01:00:57,519 --> 01:01:01,519
about this unsub mitigated his own liability, and he died

754
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:03,440
to suggest this guy was on the scene when the

755
01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:06,039
murders happened. He just said, Oh he's He's well known

756
01:01:06,039 --> 01:01:08,840
in occult circles locally, and he basically was a sell

757
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:15,400
him a guy who got Damien into more serious occult worship.

758
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,280
But yeah, well we'll get into the Hutchinson testimony next time. Yeh,

759
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:22,199
that's cool, fair thing.

760
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,559
Speaker 2: So obviously you know people know where to find you substack,

761
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,840
your website, Twitter, at least for now, we'll say, I'll

762
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,920
make sure those are down the description I caught up.

763
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:36,400
I don't remember if I mentioned this last time. With

764
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,480
the two parter you did with Andy Edwards and Carl

765
01:01:39,559 --> 01:01:42,679
dol great episode. I highly recommend people check that out

766
01:01:42,719 --> 01:01:46,760
on your substack. That's one to pay attention to We'll

767
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,039
have another episode of Radio Free Chicago sooner than later.

768
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:54,440
Y'all can check that out, and maybe, who knows, we

769
01:01:54,559 --> 01:01:57,199
might do a deep dive on Epstein stuff because there's

770
01:01:57,199 --> 01:01:59,360
been a whole bunch of documents out and you know,

771
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,480
I certainly have my takeaways. I think you do as well. Anyway,

772
01:02:02,679 --> 01:02:05,400
that'll come out sooner or later. As far as my stuff,

773
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,360
The Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen

774
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,840
to podcasts. If you want the episodes early in ad Free,

775
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:12,559
you have to slide me a few bucks. You can

776
01:02:12,599 --> 01:02:18,159
do so on Patreon, gum Road, or Substack. Also our

777
01:02:18,199 --> 01:02:21,519
sponsor Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I've been snowed in for

778
01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:24,199
almost a week and a half. Now I'm going insane.

779
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,400
The South is not prepared for this much ice, and

780
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,280
so I have been to the gym and forever. I'm

781
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,400
going crazy. But JD still has a good product. Thomas

782
01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:36,159
is great talking to you, man. I appreciate it everyon home,

783
01:02:36,519 --> 01:02:38,320
Keep your head up. I can't last forever.

784
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:59,559
Speaker 3: Good Night

785
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 2: The Round the Bagarian Devinent Gagarian Devient Programming