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<v Speaker 1>I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingyona Show.

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<v Speaker 1>Kurt from Anelopillos Back. Are you doing to a Kurt?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, I'm doing great. Hi? Everyone, happy to be back.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we are going to talk about, uh, talk about

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<v Speaker 1>another book that Antelope Hill has published. It is I

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<v Speaker 1>will I always struggle to pronounce it, Il duche Massimo

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<v Speaker 1>Volume One's enough, Yeah, yeah, Il duce Massimo Volume one

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<v Speaker 1>Selected speeches and writings of Mussolini from his beginnings to

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<v Speaker 1>the first attempted assassination December nineteen oh one October nineteen eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Big picture, what do you get out of this out

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<v Speaker 1>of these speeches and writings.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the big thing that most people know about Mussolini

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<v Speaker 2>but aren't really familiar with is that he of course

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<v Speaker 2>came out of the Italian Socialist Party, and he wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of a participant in that. He was he

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<v Speaker 2>was a big name. He was someone who was headlining

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of their publications. He was a well known speaker, writer, propagandist, agitator,

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<v Speaker 2>and he knew his stuff. He was very familiar with

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<v Speaker 2>all of the sort of classic socialist writings. He comments

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<v Speaker 2>a lot on Marx and Angles, of course, but also

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<v Speaker 2>other maybe slightly lesser known but still prominent European socialists,

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<v Speaker 2>as well as on a lot of other philosophers. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I think is really interesting about this book

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<v Speaker 2>is that we're really going back to the formation of

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<v Speaker 2>Mussolany's political and philosophical and economic thinking, and and so

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<v Speaker 2>you're getting the Mussolini from before fascism was even really

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<v Speaker 2>an idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he really seems to you know, the first question

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<v Speaker 1>I had when I'm like, okay, so what is a

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<v Speaker 1>young Mussolini from his beginnings? You know, how much is

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<v Speaker 1>he influenced by Marx? Obviously, so from the speeches and

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<v Speaker 1>the writings, what do you how do you see his

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<v Speaker 1>Marxist priors, let's just call it that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think he appears as someone who definitely is

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<v Speaker 2>a Marxist. Would would probably describe himself as a maybe,

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<v Speaker 2>if not a Marxist, at least a follower of Marx,

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<v Speaker 2>someone who highly valued Marx's ideas. He's very much not

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of doctrinaire of any one sort of school

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<v Speaker 2>of social He describes himself as a couple of different things.

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<v Speaker 2>A syndicalist is one of the terms he uses to

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<v Speaker 2>describe himself, which basically means he he believes in a

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<v Speaker 2>revolution through the power of trade unions and that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of organization, rather than through parliaments and parties, which is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of interesting because that obviously changes later. But he

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<v Speaker 2>in his commentary on Marx, he definitely rejects the people

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<v Speaker 2>who who want to throw out Marx entirely, while at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time saying, yes, obviously Marx wasn't right about

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<v Speaker 2>literally everything, so he's somewhere in that sort of middle

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<v Speaker 2>ground of socialists in this time period.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's interesting when you look at some of

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<v Speaker 1>the people who can consider themselves to be syndicalists. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of them, the paths they took or the people

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<v Speaker 1>that they inspired tended to be more on the right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is interesting. The biggest name I think is

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<v Speaker 2>George Sorell was a French syndicalist. He's at least the

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<v Speaker 2>one that I find the most interesting, even though Mussolini

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<v Speaker 2>comments on him. Not a whole lot, but he does

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<v Speaker 2>excerpt a few of his writings and reprints them in

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<v Speaker 2>one of the newspapers that he's that he is writing

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<v Speaker 2>for at the time, Currell basically the sort of TLDR

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<v Speaker 2>for those who don't know much about him. He is

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<v Speaker 2>a revolutionary socialist of the syndicalist variety. As we've said,

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<v Speaker 2>he sort of really believes in the power of revolutionary violence,

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<v Speaker 2>of the general strikes, the rule of the proletariat, and

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<v Speaker 2>he makes a few different major contributions to socialists thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the big ones is the power of of

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<v Speaker 2>the myth as it's as it's put the base, which

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<v Speaker 2>is basically referring to the power of violence as a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of energizing force, something around which a myth us

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<v Speaker 2>can be built that will strengthen the social classes. And

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<v Speaker 2>he even refers to this as the violent contest in

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<v Speaker 2>the classes as hopefully also reforming the bourgeois classes as well,

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<v Speaker 2>which is kind of interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so it's he's definitely a class warfare rather than

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<v Speaker 2>a class cooperation guy. But he does think that through

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<v Speaker 2>this the rest of society beyond gets the proletariat wall

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<v Speaker 2>so be improved. Where I think you're you're seeing kind

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<v Speaker 2>of an early step into a sort of fascist thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>and he ends up, interestingly enough, becoming like an integralist

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<v Speaker 2>later on and saying essentially that the socialism has failed

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<v Speaker 2>and gravitates more towards the sort of French integralists like

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<v Speaker 2>Charles Morat.

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<v Speaker 1>The let's let's stay on Cirell for a while, because

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<v Speaker 1>I think Sorell is really important, and there's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll get back to Mussolini, of course, but it seems

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<v Speaker 1>like Sorell when you look at fascism and you look

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<v Speaker 1>at even national socialism in Germany. People like to bring

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<v Speaker 1>up Nietzsche as an inspiration, and obvious he was, but

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<v Speaker 1>it seems to me that probably Sorel Sorell is unsung

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<v Speaker 1>there and that there was probably in practice there was

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<v Speaker 1>more inspiration from Sorel than Nietzsche. Do you agree with

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<v Speaker 1>that or am I wrown?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not sure, because they're different sorts of contributions.

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<v Speaker 2>Nietzsche obviously is not programmatic, he doesn't or or systematic

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<v Speaker 2>Niche is really at sort of the maybe subconscious level

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<v Speaker 2>and inspiration for all of this, and including for Cerell himself.

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<v Speaker 2>But crell Is Sorell is a huge contributor to this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of radical revolutionary attitude and the way that violence

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<v Speaker 2>is understood as in the end a social tonic or

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<v Speaker 2>amenable to creating positive social change, and it's very much

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<v Speaker 2>against the sort of parliamentarism. One of the things that

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<v Speaker 2>you see as a common thread throughout all of Mussolani's

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<v Speaker 2>inspirations is an anti parliamentarism. That's really the ultimate bad guy.

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<v Speaker 1>And we will come back to Mussolanium. I just want

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<v Speaker 1>to stay on this for a while because you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>Currell and the general strike. How relevant do you think

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<v Speaker 1>a general strike is today? Or is or things just

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<v Speaker 1>too automated at this point?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good question. I would have to say, I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't thought about it too much, although the thought did

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<v Speaker 2>a heard to me as I was reading this, whether

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<v Speaker 2>or not such a thing as even possible at this point.

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<v Speaker 2>My first instinct is that I don't think it is.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that the laboring class in certainly in America,

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<v Speaker 2>has the requisite level of of of political consciousness for

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<v Speaker 2>such a thing. And in many ways, it's it's gone backwards.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's that that genie has been put back in

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<v Speaker 2>the lamp through all sorts of means, just stay propaganda

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<v Speaker 2>and essentially the victory of the reactionary liberal so called

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<v Speaker 2>democratic classes in the us. Possibly in Europe, it's still possible,

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<v Speaker 2>but we of course run up against the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>all of the the so called socialists of today have

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<v Speaker 2>just completely changed their positions. They have just decided that

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<v Speaker 2>their constituency are freaks and degenerates and foreigners, which has

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<v Speaker 2>completely cut the legs out from under any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>labor organizing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, I mean, I've I've had these thoughts a lot,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, from reading Sorell, and I think you're right.

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<v Speaker 1>There's really the only way you're going to have that

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<v Speaker 1>is if you have a coherent culture. And there is

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<v Speaker 1>no coherent culture there, there is no culture on a

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<v Speaker 1>mass scale. So yeah, it's everything keeps coming back to localism.

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<v Speaker 1>But all right, moving on with the text. So, from

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<v Speaker 1>what I got from reading reading this early views or

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<v Speaker 1>anti statist, he sees economic transformation suppressing current property relations

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<v Speaker 1>proletarians or the or the main actors or the sole actor.

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<v Speaker 1>And then but he also seems to when he starts

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<v Speaker 1>turning away from Marx, I think he just sees Marx.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems like he sees Marx as an economist concerned

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<v Speaker 1>solely with labor and material conditions. And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>basically what Mussolini starts to see is is this do

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<v Speaker 1>you think this is? When he starts to, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just start looking at the Italian people as the Italian people,

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<v Speaker 1>and the yeah, it would be kind of it would

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<v Speaker 1>be difficult to take a coherent culture and seeks to

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<v Speaker 1>durascinated as such.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's his stance on nationalism as such

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<v Speaker 2>really in the beginning is doctrinaire Marxist. He's very much

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<v Speaker 2>against the idea of nationalism. He views patriotic appeals as

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<v Speaker 2>basically being a tool of the bourgeois to fool the

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<v Speaker 2>proletariat into fighting the wars for them, and so on

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<v Speaker 2>and so forth. I'm not really sure where the turn

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<v Speaker 2>towards a sort of Italian nationalism comes in. He has

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<v Speaker 2>positive feelings about some figures in the history of Italian nationalism,

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<v Speaker 2>like Mazzini, who is one of the leaders of the Resourcialmento,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're sort of limited. He he's equivocal about his

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<v Speaker 2>praise for these people. On Mazzini, for example, he notes,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, in comparing him to Marx, that Mazzini really

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<v Speaker 2>is not an economist, and he doesn't value Mazzini as

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<v Speaker 2>an economist. Mazzini is a liberal. Basically, he's a liberal

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<v Speaker 2>Republican who wanted to set up these sort of social

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<v Speaker 2>democratic mechanisms that are completely against doctrine our socialism. But

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time praises him as as a man,

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<v Speaker 2>as sort of as a political agitator. But I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>quite sure where the ultimate verdict would fall on these people.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as Mussolany is concerned. It seems to me

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<v Speaker 2>like in this period he's he sees them as well

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<v Speaker 2>intentioned people with perhaps some noble virtues, but ultimately I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think he sees himself as following in their footsteps.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, one figure that probably people who don't know, you

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<v Speaker 1>know who ever read the early history of Mussolini and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, once again, thanks for putting that out there.

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<v Speaker 1>One figure that he was really inspired by was Vilfredo Perretto,

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<v Speaker 1>actually going to his lectures and doing commentary on his work,

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<v Speaker 1>and it seemed like he he described Parretto's ideas as

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<v Speaker 1>like a healthy positivism. Is that what you get from

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<v Speaker 1>the reading?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I would. I would tend to agree with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Parretto's sort of analysis of the way that democratic states

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<v Speaker 2>actually function is I think something that naturally would have

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<v Speaker 2>appeal to a socialist who who believes their worldview to

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<v Speaker 2>be scientific right, or values a sort of scientific worldview.

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<v Speaker 2>And Parretto is used by Mussolini in a couple different

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<v Speaker 2>ways here. Firstly by breaking down the sort of idea

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<v Speaker 2>of social majorities. Vil Fredo Pereto, for those who don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>was actually am I correct on this? He began as

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<v Speaker 2>more of an economist and then moved into more political science.

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<v Speaker 2>You are correct, yes, okay, And so he applies a

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<v Speaker 2>more systematic, analytical, sort of economics based framework to analysis

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<v Speaker 2>of politics. And basically he's saying that democracy is fake,

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<v Speaker 2>and he can prove it mathematically that there is essentially

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<v Speaker 2>never any such thing as a majority in politics, that

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of majoritarian rule itself is sort of a fiction.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is always run by an organized minority, something that

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people on our side of

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<v Speaker 2>things today will will take for granted that that's essentially true.

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<v Speaker 2>But he's sort of the founder of that principle and

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<v Speaker 2>the one who did the most had demonstrated scientifically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he uh Parretto. When Leslin he writes in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>oh four that Parretto is basically likening the sovereign right

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<v Speaker 1>of majorities to the divine right of princes and the

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<v Speaker 1>Parreto also see it says, you know, like I think

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned, and like moral majorities or even intellectual majorities,

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<v Speaker 1>that those have to be looked upon with suspicion, with suspicion,

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<v Speaker 1>because there is you're at least at this time, at

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<v Speaker 1>the time he's writing, the world has changed so much

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<v Speaker 1>that and so much thought in the West has progressed

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<v Speaker 1>away from throwing throwing an altar that it's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>hard not to see that individualism is really taking over.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's what I Predo says, Like even the terms

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<v Speaker 1>like individual and social in the social sciences are can't

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<v Speaker 1>even be made precisely right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think the value that Pereto has for

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<v Speaker 2>Mustleny at this point is basically exploding the mythology of

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<v Speaker 2>the liberal republican or not even necessarily republican at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>but of liberal parliamentarian, I should say, states.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it seems like Mussolini was inspired by Peretto

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<v Speaker 1>his insights teaching socialists at the time about unity and

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<v Speaker 1>party tactics, suggesting that Peretto his critical his critical analysis

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<v Speaker 1>of societal structures and limitations of conventional political concepts resonated

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<v Speaker 1>with Mussolini and seemed to push his I think it

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<v Speaker 1>pushed his socialism more, and it looks like it could

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<v Speaker 1>possibly be pushing away his Marxist kind of socialist leanings

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<v Speaker 1>towards more of a kinist kind of socialist leanings, if

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<v Speaker 1>you get what I'm saying, Yeah, perhaps I think you.

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<v Speaker 2>You see in a lot of his his writings at

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<v Speaker 2>this point, there's some stuff that definitely seems contradictory, especially

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<v Speaker 2>as it concerns those sort of later developments of his ideology.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is this is one of them, because

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<v Speaker 2>he'll he'll cite or he'll he'll write approvingly of Nietzsche

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<v Speaker 2>or Peretto's ideas on one page, and then on the

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<v Speaker 2>next he's sort of back to this very classical Marxist

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<v Speaker 2>universal brotherhood of man stuff, This this sort of universal

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<v Speaker 2>humanism that doesn't really seem to mesh with what he's

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<v Speaker 2>been talking about on the page before. So, and of course,

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<v Speaker 2>being a man of contradictions at this point in his life,

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<v Speaker 2>is is really no criticisms. He's basically trying to synthesize

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<v Speaker 2>all of these things together. He hasn't and he hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>done it yet, of course, because it's it's very early process.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do agree. I think you definitely see the

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<v Speaker 2>seeds of those later developments coming in at this point. Peretto,

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<v Speaker 2>after all, is I'm not sure how I would describe him,

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps a conservative revolutionary at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, probably a conservative revolutionary. It's very strange people different

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<v Speaker 1>people read Peretto and get different things out of him

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<v Speaker 1>and see him as different things, which I guess that's

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing. I guess that the compliments to him.

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<v Speaker 1>The thing you mentioned about seeming contradictions, I think anybody

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<v Speaker 1>who is who has gone like when you talk to

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<v Speaker 1>people who were like on the left and now they're

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<v Speaker 1>on the right, or libertarian who basically pretty much the

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<v Speaker 1>same thing as being on the left and moving, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>moving to what we would call the far right. In

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<v Speaker 1>that process of evolving your the contradictions are going to abound.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you're you don't want to leave things, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to leave things behind you, you don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>leave your past beliefs behind. You can start to believe

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<v Speaker 1>that you're you know, why should I if I believe

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<v Speaker 1>something was right at one point, why you know what

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<v Speaker 1>makes it wrong now? And you know there's there's also

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, you don't want to lose acquaintances and

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<v Speaker 1>friends along the way, So any kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what you see from his writings where he's analyzing somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who's obviously not a doctrinaire Marxist and struggling with that

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<v Speaker 1>and still holding some you know, still holding some Marxist beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's just a a logical for anyone who's

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<v Speaker 1>ever made a big shift, I think they're sympathetic to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. I did notice as well that some of

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<v Speaker 2>the commentary where he seems to me anyways to be

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<v Speaker 2>sort of at his worst in terms of this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of sappy universal humanism, it seems to coincide with his

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<v Speaker 2>time writing for one specific outlet, So it may have

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<v Speaker 2>even been the influence of his editor or whatever whatever

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<v Speaker 2>council was setting the editorial line for that publication, which

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<v Speaker 2>I thought was kind of interesting. It was during his

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<v Speaker 2>time in Trentino, I noticed especially he tends to write

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<v Speaker 2>like that, Trentino being the Austrian at the time, Austrian

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<v Speaker 2>province that was populated by primarily Italians.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's move on to probably somebody who inspired him. It

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<v Speaker 1>appears much more than did Nietzsche. I mean, first, first

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<v Speaker 1>and foremost, it seems like Mussolini was just drawn to

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<v Speaker 1>the brilliant spirit the challenging of traditional morality and systems

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<v Speaker 1>every It's almost like Nietzsche offered a offered a basis

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<v Speaker 1>for every revolts in every moral and political attitude of

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<v Speaker 1>the revolutionary at that point.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think his his reading of Nietzsche

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<v Speaker 2>is quite good. Actually, I found very little in it

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<v Speaker 2>that I that I really disagreed with, And I think

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<v Speaker 2>his his his use of Nitsche to explain or to

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<v Speaker 2>justify some of the radical positions that were taken by

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<v Speaker 2>sort of revolutionary socialist figures. I think it's it's quite

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<v Speaker 2>lightning for someone who's coming at it from our side

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<v Speaker 2>of things. People who are are fans of Niche might

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<v Speaker 2>find something valuable in there that the niche is not

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<v Speaker 2>simply justifying their politics that is sort of right wing,

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<v Speaker 2>right wing radical politics, but also people who are coming

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<v Speaker 2>from the left and came up with some some pretty

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<v Speaker 2>valuable interpretations of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like he it seems like he's almost drawing

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<v Speaker 1>draws directly on the genealogy of morals, describing the origin

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<v Speaker 1>of the state as a violent act by a pack

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<v Speaker 1>of blonde beasts of prey and race of lords and

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<v Speaker 1>conquerors who impose their laws on weaker populations. And while

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<v Speaker 1>all of that sounds negative, it seems like it definitely

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<v Speaker 1>resonated with him when it came to strength and force

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<v Speaker 1>in the formation of a society.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's that's the theme that you see coming

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<v Speaker 2>through with with him and with surrounds and of the

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<v Speaker 2>others that we've we've talked about this, this clear thread

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<v Speaker 2>through all of Mussolini's arguments on the value of of

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<v Speaker 2>action of power on self reliance. Uh. He's he's always

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<v Speaker 2>pushing for uh. And he and he quotes Marks on

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<v Speaker 2>this saying, you know, the workers have to liberate themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>They can't rely on on outside help or or charity

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<v Speaker 2>from guilty bourgeois millionaires.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>The workers utopia is not going to be built by

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<v Speaker 2>charity cases. And that's that's I think an interesting way

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<v Speaker 2>to synthesize Nietzsche with Marx, even in a certain a

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<v Speaker 2>certain way.

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<v Speaker 1>And he do you think it's in Nietzsche that he

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<v Speaker 1>starts to see the uh see that even the blonde

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<v Speaker 1>beasts of prey require a principle of solidarity for their

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<v Speaker 1>collect for the for the collective and the states to

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<v Speaker 1>endure like like this, it would involve obedience to collective

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<v Speaker 1>rules and protection of slaves or production represented represented by

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<v Speaker 1>a first limitation of individual will, a fatal also, which

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<v Speaker 1>could be a fatal flaw of solidarity that even the

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<v Speaker 1>strong can escape. But you know, even he like mostly

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<v Speaker 1>he noted that the contradiction of Nietzsche's thought between the

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<v Speaker 1>unique Guber mentioned the need for communal rules. But it

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<v Speaker 1>seems like this is where he starts to get some

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<v Speaker 1>of his uh, some of his inspiration to move away

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<v Speaker 1>from uh Marxist being a doctrinaire Marxist to or it's

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<v Speaker 1>more of a kinship kind of model.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's certainly he sees

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<v Speaker 2>this as a dilemma. In Niches thought, he has a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty interesting passage where he sort of explores it more

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<v Speaker 2>in depth that honestly, I felt like I had to

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<v Speaker 2>go back to and reread it. It is. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty complicated conceptually. I think it is notable how much

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<v Speaker 2>of a philosopher Bussolini really is at this point. He

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<v Speaker 2>has a very very good grasp of these things and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to say, a lot to say about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if did I answer the question.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I mean it's I mean, that's a rabbit hole. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's like, that's a series just to to examine certain

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<v Speaker 1>figures and how they how they rectify the uber Mensch

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<v Speaker 1>and communal rules. And but you know, it's like, I

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<v Speaker 1>guess at that point where he he's embracing the concept

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<v Speaker 1>of the uber Mensch and he really starts to I think,

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<v Speaker 1>as you just said, starts to question everything, and he

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<v Speaker 1>even sees like the uber Mensch representing a being who

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<v Speaker 1>surpasses man, battling against not only the police, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the plubs, but also God.

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<v Speaker 2>M hm. Yeah, yeah, I mean I certainly think that

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<v Speaker 2>that his reading is. I think it's a good one really.

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<v Speaker 2>And he also everyone will will notice at this point

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<v Speaker 2>he's really leaning on Niche for his anti Christian views,

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<v Speaker 2>and mostly throughout this book is very much an anti

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<v Speaker 2>clerical radical. He really sees in the Church like one

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<v Speaker 2>of the greatest enemies, one of the greatest reactionary forces.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the and I guess it can't be overstated that

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<v Speaker 1>considering the the priors that he comes from, that that

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<v Speaker 1>would definitely be something that would be he would carry forth,

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<v Speaker 1>and that would probably be the hardest thing for him

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<v Speaker 1>to throw off.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, and the interesting thing I think is that

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<v Speaker 2>when you look at what happens in what was it

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<v Speaker 2>twenty two or twenty three, that the actual that the

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<v Speaker 2>Fascist Party comes to.

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<v Speaker 1>Power two I believe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So you know, with what happens in twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>he ends up compromising on a lot of things that

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<v Speaker 2>probably he shouldn't have, most especially the monarchy and the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of parliamentary system. Even the Grand Council of Fascism

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<v Speaker 2>ends up ultimately being basically a little better than a

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<v Speaker 2>parliamentary system. So you see, of course, the old rule

402
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<v Speaker 2>expressed that all movements are more pure in the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>and become less so as they go on. And he

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<v Speaker 2>and of course he compromises with the Church as well

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<v Speaker 2>in the end, there's the various accommodations that are made.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, in the beginning, the Church is very much

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to fascism, but then in the end he's of

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<v Speaker 2>course supporting the Spanish nationalists who are very much aligned

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<v Speaker 2>with the Catholic Church. You see the same thing play

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<v Speaker 2>out basically in Germany, right where the Church manages always

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of escape the clutches of these anti clerical

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<v Speaker 2>movements because they have bigger fish to fry. But I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think mostly any really ever in his heart returned

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<v Speaker 2>back to Catholicism. I think he might have made his

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<v Speaker 2>peace with it, but you still have the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>anti clerical streak in him.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I mean, Padre Pio Trot did as much as

418
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:01.279
<v Speaker 1>he could, but yeah, he can only do something.

419
00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:04.160
<v Speaker 2>And it's it's funny because you almost see like a

420
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon here, because Napoleon follows the same trajectory, beginning as

421
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:17.480
<v Speaker 2>a radical, never really quite making his peace with the

422
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Church or or never coming the whole way back around

423
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.800
<v Speaker 2>to it, of course taking the crown from the Pope's

424
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:30.320
<v Speaker 2>hands and crowning himself, but yet also restoring some of

425
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.679
<v Speaker 2>its privileges and some of its status.

426
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

427
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.000
<v Speaker 2>It's the Church has always had a tricky relationship with

428
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:38.599
<v Speaker 2>these sorts of radical movements.

429
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:46.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well, the speaking of the church, he he

430
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:52.679
<v Speaker 1>some of these some of his writings are extremely short

431
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.440
<v Speaker 1>and so he I mean just to bounce on like

432
00:34:56.480 --> 00:34:58.880
<v Speaker 1>a couple, just cover a couple of these. I mean,

433
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:01.280
<v Speaker 1>he has a very short one on the Masonic question,

434
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.960
<v Speaker 1>and he wrote this in nineteen ten. And he's like,

435
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:09.679
<v Speaker 1>to the question, kind of socialists joined Freemasonry? We will

436
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:12.400
<v Speaker 1>answer no, must a socialists who is found to be

437
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.239
<v Speaker 1>a member of Freemason beury being spell from the party?

438
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.960
<v Speaker 1>We will answer yes, there are a few hundred of

439
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:20.039
<v Speaker 1>our leaders who, instead of working in the interests of

440
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.119
<v Speaker 1>the proletariat, work in the interests of the lodge to

441
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:25.039
<v Speaker 1>which they belong. They must be swept away, purified the

442
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.360
<v Speaker 1>air infected by the old secular left wing. Click, then

443
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:37.360
<v Speaker 1>we will breathe better. Some amazing, some amazing writings, and

444
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:46.639
<v Speaker 1>just he could turn a phrase which is which basically

445
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.719
<v Speaker 1>what your enemies. And I mean, there's a lot of

446
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.360
<v Speaker 1>people who don't like Mussolini at all. Doctor Matthew Raphael

447
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 1>Johnson can't stand him. I'm more like neutral. I look

448
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:02.480
<v Speaker 1>upon him as a historical figure that needs to be

449
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:10.800
<v Speaker 1>studied good things, bad things, And but to underestimate his

450
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.079
<v Speaker 1>importance and because of basically because of the timing of

451
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:19.000
<v Speaker 1>his rise is uh and and to not study him

452
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:26.719
<v Speaker 1>is just I think it's, uh, you're failing yourself. And

453
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.679
<v Speaker 1>also to get back to my mind's all over the place.

454
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:35.119
<v Speaker 1>I gets Scatterburan sometimes his his enemies and they still

455
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.599
<v Speaker 1>still exist to this day, will tell you that, you know,

456
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.239
<v Speaker 1>he was just a brute of a man who would

457
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.960
<v Speaker 1>fight anybody on the street, which is obviously true. But

458
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.239
<v Speaker 1>I think one of the things his speeches and his

459
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.159
<v Speaker 1>writings prove is he was also an incredibly intelligent person.

460
00:36:53.159 --> 00:37:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, yeah, it's uh, Mossleney is certainly underrated. I'm

461
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.400
<v Speaker 2>sure I've said that before talking about our our other

462
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:12.360
<v Speaker 2>mussol Any book that we have, which is a collection

463
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of his his late war speeches which are much more sparse.

464
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.719
<v Speaker 2>Of course, he didn't have time for all this, all

465
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:25.639
<v Speaker 2>this writing when he was a head of state. But yeah,

466
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:29.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean personally, I think these these early writings are

467
00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the most interesting part about him. Like reading Mussolani in

468
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:41.360
<v Speaker 2>his his younger radical stage, and you know, you, like

469
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.440
<v Speaker 2>we've said, you you can detect the seeds of where

470
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:51.320
<v Speaker 2>he's going to develop later ideologically, but he still really

471
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.320
<v Speaker 2>has this this radical edge that a lot of of

472
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.760
<v Speaker 2>people like him had before the war. The First World

473
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:07.039
<v Speaker 2>War of course, ends up changing everything in Europe. So

474
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.239
<v Speaker 2>getting that that window into what things looked like beforehand

475
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:11.880
<v Speaker 2>is always fascinating.

476
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, and it's so obvious, like the what the war

477
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:22.599
<v Speaker 1>did to so many. I mean, he's a you know,

478
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:25.519
<v Speaker 1>he would be a considered to be a fan of

479
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 1>a hero of the trade unionist, of the working man,

480
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:33.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, of the proletariat. And then he gets into

481
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:36.639
<v Speaker 1>power and who are the anti fascists who try to

482
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:43.119
<v Speaker 1>kill him? Trade workers, republicans, former uh, former soldiers from

483
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:50.239
<v Speaker 1>World War One? And it just well, because we didn't

484
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:54.599
<v Speaker 1>live at that time, and because so little and I

485
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:59.199
<v Speaker 1>actually believe so little has been preserved from that time

486
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.440
<v Speaker 1>or just hasn't been translated yet, that we don't understand

487
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:08.360
<v Speaker 1>exactly how revolutionary a time that was coming out of

488
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:14.840
<v Speaker 1>that war, and how the average man returning to his

489
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:17.719
<v Speaker 1>country who fought in that war, what he found at home,

490
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:22.519
<v Speaker 1>and how you know, we know, we probably know better

491
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 1>how the national socialist dealt with it, but you know,

492
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 1>there were this was every country that had to deal

493
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.880
<v Speaker 1>with it and come home to radicals trying to infiltrate

494
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:41.119
<v Speaker 1>in pretty much every country. And yeah, just knowing the

495
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.800
<v Speaker 1>path that he took, and then how the people who

496
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:49.719
<v Speaker 1>before the war would have been his comrades are now

497
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:51.760
<v Speaker 1>trying to kill him absolutely amazing.

498
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that's them might even be an overstatement.

499
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't don't think that he I don't think that

500
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Mussolini's transformation from a socialist to a fascist was as

501
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.000
<v Speaker 2>much of an about face as people tend to think.

502
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I believe he really did hold on to a lot

503
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:22.159
<v Speaker 2>of these ideological tenets. And of course to really get

504
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:24.400
<v Speaker 2>in depth on the reading there, we'll have to wait

505
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:27.760
<v Speaker 2>for the next volume to come out of this collection.

506
00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Because even if you look into the twenties and thirties,

507
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:36.840
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of even military collaboration between Musolini's Italy

508
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:43.719
<v Speaker 2>and the Soviet Union, especially in the naval realm. There's

509
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:49.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot of comments from Mussolini that paint the Soviet

510
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.599
<v Speaker 2>Union in a favorable light during this period, or at

511
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:58.480
<v Speaker 2>least highlight the positive things that Mussolini sees developing there.

512
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:03.360
<v Speaker 2>It really is quite interesting, and I think a lot

513
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>of his sort of cadres from the socialist period follow

514
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:11.320
<v Speaker 2>him into the Fascist Party. There's not necessarily a view

515
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:21.639
<v Speaker 2>that they're nimically opposed to each other. It seems to

516
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 2>me that a lot of the a lot of the

517
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:30.679
<v Speaker 2>opposition to Mussolini's rule in Italy really is more of

518
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:38.679
<v Speaker 2>a coalition between these sort of anti authoritarian radical liberals

519
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:45.000
<v Speaker 2>on one hand and the sort of of Trotskyist types

520
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.400
<v Speaker 2>on the other. Like you see these fractures within socialism

521
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.960
<v Speaker 2>becoming more pronounced, and that's I think where a lot

522
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.519
<v Speaker 2>of the opposition comes from.

523
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's what I was. What I was trying

524
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:02.480
<v Speaker 1>to say, more than anything, was how people were viewing him,

525
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.280
<v Speaker 1>how people who would know who he was before the

526
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:09.199
<v Speaker 1>war were viewing him now. And it goes to show

527
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:13.320
<v Speaker 1>how much people people were pretty much everyone was actually

528
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.079
<v Speaker 1>changed by the war. I mean not everyone, I mean

529
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:22.400
<v Speaker 1>obviously the the Marxist, the Bolsheviks, they pretty much stayed

530
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:27.000
<v Speaker 1>in there in the lane that they were in before.

531
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:33.239
<v Speaker 1>But just people's perceptions, how much they changed, and also

532
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:37.760
<v Speaker 1>how how much of a sense of urgency it seemed

533
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:40.400
<v Speaker 1>coming out of the war, which you know, if you

534
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 1>understand exactly what the war was, what it did, what

535
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:47.280
<v Speaker 1>it did, and the world coming out of it makes

536
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:49.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of sense. It's just I don't think it's

537
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 1>something that it's hard for us to grasp just by

538
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:54.239
<v Speaker 1>reading a book.

539
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:58.480
<v Speaker 2>At this point, m oh I did want to say though,

540
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:02.159
<v Speaker 2>because I don't think I I had the opportunity to

541
00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:04.639
<v Speaker 2>make much of an introduction to the book at the beginning.

542
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:07.920
<v Speaker 2>And I just mentioned now that this will be part

543
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:13.480
<v Speaker 2>of a series. So this is volume one. We're gonna

544
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:16.119
<v Speaker 2>have a lot more of these coming out. I think

545
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:21.320
<v Speaker 2>we're shooting for one book in this series per year

546
00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.880
<v Speaker 2>for the foreseeable future. So we're going to cover a

547
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:30.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of Mussolini's writings through aunt up Pill, and I

548
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:37.320
<v Speaker 2>really recommend that people do get familiar with the intellectual

549
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:43.280
<v Speaker 2>developments during this time period this volume one. I really

550
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:48.719
<v Speaker 2>cannot overstate how much more of an appreciation it's given

551
00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:51.639
<v Speaker 2>me for that sort of turn of the century radicalism

552
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.079
<v Speaker 2>and the way it led into all the political developments

553
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.119
<v Speaker 2>that were more familiar with later on into the interwar period.

554
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, awesome, awesome, I know people look forward to that.

555
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:11.320
<v Speaker 1>So I guess one other one other specific. Uh, I

556
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.519
<v Speaker 1>don't know if this is a letter or yeah, this

557
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:18.480
<v Speaker 1>is a letter. He actually writes a letter on the

558
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:23.199
<v Speaker 1>need for propaganda. I mean just explicitly. Oh, sure, and

559
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:27.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's just something that you you didn't see

560
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:33.840
<v Speaker 1>in the day, and even today when I don't think

561
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:37.440
<v Speaker 1>we call it properly. I think the term we a

562
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of us use is just narrative control. We need

563
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:46.880
<v Speaker 1>our own narratives. It's not as explicit and he's I

564
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 1>mean he's he's incredibly explicit about how how this is

565
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:57.920
<v Speaker 1>needed to guide the people and control the people. And

566
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.239
<v Speaker 1>it's just it's it's a breath of fresh air to

567
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.519
<v Speaker 1>read somebody being this, uh, this out in the open

568
00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 1>about it.

569
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, propaganda back then hadn't become like a dirty word.

570
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:16.920
<v Speaker 2>It was understood as really the textbook definition of the word.

571
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>It's propaganda is called propaganda because it is to propagate

572
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:26.599
<v Speaker 2>an idea or a viewpoint. I mean, if you even

573
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>look at like Rex's minister Goebels was, he was Minister

574
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:34.920
<v Speaker 2>of Propaganda, that was his official title. It wasn't something

575
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:38.880
<v Speaker 2>shameful to say, we're doing propaganda.

576
00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think people just think of of Gebel Goebbels

577
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:52.280
<v Speaker 1>as being like, we don't care, you know, we're we

578
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:56.280
<v Speaker 1>just we're being explicit about it. But no, it was

579
00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:01.280
<v Speaker 1>just something explicitly talked about back then. Nowadays, it's it

580
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.400
<v Speaker 1>has become such a dirty word. I mean, and even

581
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:06.400
<v Speaker 1>more explicitly than like if you read I'm sure you've

582
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:11.039
<v Speaker 1>you've probably read Brenees's propaganda. Yeah, he catches it in

583
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:15.440
<v Speaker 1>advertising language. I mean he's not he's not even explicit

584
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.159
<v Speaker 1>about it. And he's considered the father of propaganda, and

585
00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:20.159
<v Speaker 1>he's writing at the same time, and.

586
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.840
<v Speaker 2>It's it's funny. I think it's like Westerners have this

587
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:26.360
<v Speaker 2>idea that propaganda is like something that happens to other

588
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:30.159
<v Speaker 2>people or or in other in other countries. It's it's

589
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:33.039
<v Speaker 2>like this dirty word. It's no, you're being propagandized all

590
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:37.199
<v Speaker 2>the time, every day. You can't you can't step outside

591
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.800
<v Speaker 2>your door without being propaganda. I tell you can't stay

592
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.880
<v Speaker 2>inside your door without being propagandized.

593
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.079
<v Speaker 1>The guy on Fox and New has told me that

594
00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:49.760
<v Speaker 1>there's no propaganda going on on the channel. But if

595
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.960
<v Speaker 1>there is one, if there's one thing that we one

596
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:57.199
<v Speaker 1>theme that you think that's really important in this volume

597
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.559
<v Speaker 1>that that we haven't covered, let me know now.

598
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think my big takeaway is that

599
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.480
<v Speaker 2>what we're looking at in Mussolini's early work is how

600
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:14.039
<v Speaker 2>fascism and sort of third position is a more generally

601
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:19.559
<v Speaker 2>really comes out of a fusion of radical ideologies and

602
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:26.119
<v Speaker 2>radical thinkers. It is not the inheritance of any one

603
00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:32.559
<v Speaker 2>particular historical political trend. It really is its own thing.

604
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:39.360
<v Speaker 2>I think often people forget that, or people want to

605
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:44.760
<v Speaker 2>identify our sort of politics as being quote unquote right

606
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:49.519
<v Speaker 2>wing or far right. But really, I think we have

607
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:53.639
<v Speaker 2>to destroy that notion. I think it feeds back into

608
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:58.440
<v Speaker 2>bad thinking, It feeds back into priors that a lot

609
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:04.039
<v Speaker 2>of people have that are wrong and embracing that sort

610
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:09.960
<v Speaker 2>of radical heritage, that willingness to throw out these these

611
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.480
<v Speaker 2>old ideologies that feed the system that were supposedly opposed

612
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>to that really needs to happen.

613
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:26.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, well good work on this. People should

614
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:30.159
<v Speaker 1>go to Antelope Hill Publishing dot com. The books right

615
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:33.320
<v Speaker 1>at the front there with another book that right next

616
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:36.079
<v Speaker 1>to it is another book featured products that I've covered

617
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.119
<v Speaker 1>with the that the gentleman Antelope Hill were nice enough

618
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:43.639
<v Speaker 1>to allow me to speak to the translators Germany installer

619
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:47.559
<v Speaker 1>and is Cross Hair Germany and Stalin's Cross Hairs by

620
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:52.119
<v Speaker 1>Bernt Schipper. And uh, that's a an episode that people

621
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.079
<v Speaker 1>really got a lot out of and actually had people

622
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:59.599
<v Speaker 1>in I sent my copy to somebody in in a

623
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:03.360
<v Speaker 1>europe In country because they couldn't they couldn't order it.

624
00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:11.360
<v Speaker 1>They were they weren't a lad's order. You're shocked, aren't you. Yeah,

625
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:18.079
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, go order the book there. Order. I can't

626
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:21.280
<v Speaker 1>count how many analo Pill books I have that I've

627
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:25.719
<v Speaker 1>actually purchased with my own money and use promo code

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<v Speaker 1>PQ you get five percent off, and uh yeah, check

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<v Speaker 1>this book out. Because we are this collection, there'll be

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<v Speaker 1>a volume two, and I think for those who are

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<v Speaker 1>interested in the subject, learning about the genesis and taking

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<v Speaker 1>this basically taking the journey with Mussolini through through the

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<v Speaker 1>rise of fascism in Italy will uh we'll learn a

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<v Speaker 1>lot from it. And there may even be some things

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<v Speaker 1>in there that could be useful in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I've got to say, and I genuinely

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<v Speaker 2>I don't say this about all of our books, but

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<v Speaker 2>this one really impressed me. I found this one particularly

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<v Speaker 2>valuable and insightful. And it'll also point you towards some

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<v Speaker 2>other thinkers who certainly have valuable things for us, like

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<v Speaker 2>Currel as the headline example.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, Kurt, I always enjoyed talking to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much, absolutely thanks again for having Mesh