WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:03.560 Hey, everyone, I want to tell you about my new novel, 2 00:00:03.799 --> 00:00:07.200 The Most Dangerous Man, out in June. It is a 3 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:11.679 novel about a Regimental Reconnaissance Company soldier who gets kidnapped 4 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.439 while he's on a mission to West Africa, and when 5 00:00:14.439 --> 00:00:17.000 he wakes up, he finds that he is now being 6 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:20.480 hunted for sport by a group of tech billionaires through 7 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:24.079 the wilds of West Africa. This book is based on 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:27.679 stories that I heard over the years about safari guides 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:31.960 taking wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves in Africa. 10 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.920 I took that and I took a century old short story, 11 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:39.280 The Most Dangerous Game, and modernized it. And the product 12 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.520 is this book, which I think will feel contemporary and 13 00:00:42.880 --> 00:01:02.039 resonate with audiences today. Thank you, and please check it out. Hey, guys, 14 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:04.719 welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with 15 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:10.400 tonight's guest Carlos Rodriguez. He is a former police officer 16 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:14.599 with the Washington State Patrol. He is also the author 17 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:17.760 of the book upcoming book, Hopefully it'll be out by 18 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:20.359 the time most of you guys hear this, The Ugly 19 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:25.000 Underneath Navigating the emotional toll of investigating crimes against children. 20 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:30.079 So Carlos did a whole series of different cases throughout 21 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.640 his career, but one of them was getting involved in 22 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:37.799 tracking down sexual predators, people who are engaged in human 23 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:42.120 trafficking and other nasty stuff. And I'm really happy to 24 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:45.120 have Carlos here today because I feel like in the 25 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:49.120 last couple of years, may five to ten years, maybe 26 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.920 a lot of different players have gotten involved in this topic, 27 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.959 and I think there's a lot of misconceptions around trafficking 28 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.439 and what it is. So I'm really happy to have 29 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:00.920 an expert like you on here, Carlows to somebody who 30 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:03.560 actually worked, you know, boots on the ground, to really 31 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.000 shed some light on what this job is and what 32 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:07.879 it does to the police officers as well. 33 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.599 Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me. 34 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.639 Soles. Start at the beginning, man, tell us a little 35 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.840 bit about how you grew up and why you became 36 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:18.719 a cop. What pushed you in that direction. 37 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.520 Well, I never ever thought I was going to be 38 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.360 going to law enforcement. I actually worked for the Washington 39 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:28.879 State Patrol as the mail boy, and I worked in 40 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:32.840 the mail room and my girlfriend at the time, her 41 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.360 oldest brother, was killed by a d UI. So when 42 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:41.240 that happened was tragic, and I worked for the State 43 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:43.639 Patrol and I thought, well, who gets duy s. It's 44 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:47.039 state troopers. So I set out to become a state 45 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:48.520 trooper and became a state trooper. 46 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.560 And there was an interesting moment in your book where 47 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:58.080 you were, you know, the mail office guy, and what 48 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.439 you wrote. You wrote a letter to Was it the 49 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.120 chief of police? I kind of jumped the chain to 50 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:04.840 command a few links there. 51 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:05.719 Yeah. 52 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:09.479 I remember I drove to work and I was just 53 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.840 I was stunned from what had happened with my girlfriend's 54 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.879 brother had been killed, and on Mother's Day of all days, 55 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:19.759 early in the morning, and then I just went to 56 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.479 work and I remember just feeling numb, and I decided 57 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:25.319 to write a letter to the chief. And I was 58 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.599 the mail boy, so I'm the person who delivers everything. 59 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.439 So I just wrote the letter, put put it into 60 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:34.319 an envelope, started to deliver everything down the hall, and 61 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.960 then went into his office and delivered it. And then 62 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.159 about thirty minutes after that, he came and talked to me. 63 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.159 What was that conversation? 64 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:48.280 Like, Well, first thing, I mean I'd never seen the 65 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.199 chief in the mail room, that's the first thing. And 66 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.280 I didn't think he would even I didn't even think 67 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:56.000 he'd get to it read it, because to me, I 68 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:00.879 was shoot. I was early twenties, maybe twenty twenty one, 69 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:05.080 and just didn't have any any interaction with him because 70 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:08.680 I was low person on the totem pole. But I 71 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.000 remember him coming in and he told me. First he 72 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.120 said my name, and I thought, shit, this guy knows 73 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.920 my name. And then he told me I needed to 74 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:22.199 go home, and I didn't want to go home. I 75 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:24.920 thought I needed to stay there and do my job. 76 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.839 So we had a little back and forth and then 77 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.199 he basically he assured me, assured me that I shouldn't 78 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.399 be there and that I should go and help the family. 79 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.240 And then that's when I told him, you know, I'm 80 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:41.800 going to I meant it. I'm going to be a 81 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.000 state trooper. I want to be a state trooper because 82 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:48.279 I told him that in the letter that a synopsis 83 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:50.600 that what had happened is horrible, shouldn't have happened, and 84 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:52.519 I'm going to be a state trooper so it doesn't 85 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:53.399 happen to other people. 86 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.839 And so, yeah, you went home and you helped out 87 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:03.000 the family a bit. And what was the process like 88 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.560 to actually, you know, fulfilling that uh you know, kind 89 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.680 of a dream or obligation that you felt to become 90 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:10.759 a state trooper. 91 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.680 Well it it was terrifying. I mean I was I 92 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:20.480 had never done anything like that before. I'm most people 93 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.639 in Washington State. There used to be a requirement that 94 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.000 you had to be six feet tall. I'm five six. 95 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:29.079 I'm just a little guy. So people were really shocked. 96 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.160 They were surprised when they thought, oh, you're gonna yeah, 97 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:32.519 you're right, you're going to be a trooper. 98 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.000 Uh So but I did it. 99 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:39.600 You know, I went to the academy. I had asked 100 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:41.720 some questions. I tried to get help. People told me, 101 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.319 you know, you just got to blend in. You'll get 102 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.079 through it. If you're if you're you don't want to 103 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:46.399 be too good, you don't want to be really bad. 104 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:48.319 If you're right in the middle, then then people will 105 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:49.959 leave you alone. You'll get and you'll get through it. 106 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:54.199 And unfortunately it didn't happen. The first day, I was 107 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:56.879 singled out because this lady that I worked with, who 108 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.600 I delivered mail to her husband, was our tack officer, 109 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.680 and he singled me out immediately because I look, I 110 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:05.399 got great here now, so I don't look as young, 111 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.600 but I at the time I looked like a kid. 112 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:12.839 I looked super young. And yeah, so they used to 113 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:14.959 call me kid. And I got to work. I got 114 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.240 to do a bunch of cool stuff because of how 115 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:18.879 I look though, because I looked really young. 116 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.360 Yeah right, it lent itself to undercover work. 117 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:25.480 Yeah yeah, I got to do When Fast and the 118 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.519 Furious first came out, they threw me a little Honda hatchback. 119 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:32.759 So I got to do sell stolen property, which was awesome. 120 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.199 It was fun because kids used to show me that, hey, 121 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:39.120 look at my car, you know, don't steal my shit, 122 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:39.920 you know. 123 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.240 So we got to do that. 124 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.319 And then and then I also so and then my 125 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.000 uncle he's no longer here anymore. But he actually was 126 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.879 on the other side of law enforcement. He worked for 127 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.839 some drug cartels in Washington State and I ended up 128 00:06:57.879 --> 00:06:58.319 going to prison. 129 00:06:58.399 --> 00:06:59.120 He shot somebody. 130 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.040 But he used to tell me, hey, mijo, don't don't 131 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.120 uh don't grow go tea. Just look how you look 132 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:07.279 when you're gonna go in before you do a deal 133 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:11.439 with uh with whoever you're doing with. He goes, get 134 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:14.279 some grease, put it all over your hands. Then go 135 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:15.879 wash your hands so you look like you work, because 136 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.879 cops don't look like they work, and you'll be good. 137 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:19.600 Just be yourself. 138 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:22.959 He goes, don't act like you know the Goateea's I 139 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.000 don't know, the five eleven pants. You know that your 140 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:25.839 basic stuff. 141 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.759 Yeah, like you can shave over the weekend. Like oh wow, 142 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:29.680 that's real convincing. 143 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:30.199 Yeah. 144 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:33.399 Yeah, And and and it took me back then. I mean, 145 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:34.879 it took me a couple of weeks just to get 146 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.279 a little bit of facial hair. So now I have 147 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:39.240 I have some, but this is like two weeks. 148 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.360 So well this is also I mean not way back 149 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:44.839 in the day, but I mean back in the day, 150 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:48.040 undercover work was really like oh, hey, you're a brown guy. 151 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.120 You speak Spanish, Like you can go out there and 152 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.079 sling some drugs with the kids, right. 153 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.160 Yeah, it was. It was totally different. 154 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.480 I remember when I was going through Detective Basic, they 155 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:59.680 were teaching this class and then one guy stops and 156 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:02.759 he goes, was you are you? Are you Carlos? And 157 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:04.199 I was like yeah, And I was like I heard 158 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.360 about you, we got plans for you. And then and 159 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:09.480 then I was like great, you know, so it was 160 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.519 fun I mean I got to do some some cool things. 161 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.079 And then after I did the the auto theft I 162 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:20.160 got into, I went to a trap or a drug 163 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:23.600 trafficking UH task force where we focused on mid to 164 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.959 upper level dt os and it was called West Net 165 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.120 West Sound Ercotics Enforcement Team. So I did that for 166 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.600 about four years and that that was a lot of fun. 167 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.519 I really learned. That's that's where I learned how to 168 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.399 be a cop. I was a state trooper. 169 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.320 But when I went there and the people that I 170 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.759 was with because we had it was city county FEDS, 171 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:44.639 that's where I learned from them how to actually be 172 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:47.919 a police officer. Because State patrol we had a different function. 173 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.559 So I really learned a lot from from that group 174 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:52.279 from my detectives. 175 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.639 Hey, guys, it's Jack. I want to tell you guys 176 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.720 about the sponsor for today's show. It's Mando. Mando makes 177 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:04.799 a whole series of male grooming products. They are unique 178 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.039 and not There are a deodorant that you can use 179 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.519 all over your body on armpits if you like, but 180 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:14.200 also wherever else you may deem necessary. And I have 181 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:18.200 been using these products for about three months now. I've 182 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.200 been using the body wash it's bourbon leather. I've been 183 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.759 using their bar of soap, which I really enjoyed, and 184 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.600 also their deodorant, and so I exercise a lot and 185 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.080 get very sweaty, so I need a deodorant that's gonna 186 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.879 do the job, and Mando has come through for me. 187 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:35.360 You know. 188 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.919 The body wash was great. I actually used all of that, 189 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.919 need to reorder some more. The bar of soap is 190 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.960 also very cool. It was very very smooth actually, so 191 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.039 I hope you guys will go and check them out. 192 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.919 They have a starter kit that's up there, and they 193 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.759 have a special deal for Team House viewers. So the 194 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.399 starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with 195 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.879 a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products 196 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.919 of your choice like mini body wash and deodorant wipes, 197 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.039 and free shipping. As a special offer for listeners, new 198 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.200 customers get five dollars off of starter pack with our 199 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.519 exclusive code that equates to over forty percent off your 200 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.799 starter pack. Use code Teamhouse at Shopmando dot com. That's 201 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:25.840 shopma Ndo dot com. Please support our show and tell 202 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.600 them we sent you. Smell fresher, stay dryer, and boost 203 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.480 your confidence from head to toe with mando. This time 204 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.159 of year, the pace doesn't slow down, but you still 205 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.879 need to. The calendar's packed, the weather's changing, and your 206 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.799 body's reminding you that it's time to rest and reset. 207 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.759 That's where ghostbed can help. It's a family run company 208 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:49.799 founded by a team with over twenty years of mattress 209 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.559 making expertise. They've spent decades perfecting how to build a 210 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:57.159 bed that's durable, comfortable, and engineered to help you recover. 211 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.320 Every Ghostbed mattress is made with premium materials, proven cooling 212 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.759 technology in their exclusive pro Core layer, a targeted support 213 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.799 system that reinforces the center of the mattress where your 214 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.840 body is the heaviest. It helps to keep your spine 215 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.639 aligned and your back supported so you wake up ready 216 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.360 to take on what's next. In ghost Beds, cooling materials 217 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:22.080 don't just keep you from overheating, they help regulate your 218 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.159 temperature year round. Each mattress comes with one hundred and 219 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:29.080 one night sleep trial and a twenty to twenty five 220 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:33.559 year warranty, plus fast free shipping. Most orders arrive in 221 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:36.519 two to five days, so better rest is just around 222 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:40.080 the corner right now. During ghost Beds Holiday sale, you 223 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:42.559 can get twenty five percent off site wide for a 224 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:46.759 limited time. Just go to ghostbed dot com slash house 225 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:51.840 and use the promo code house at checkout. That's ghostbed 226 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:56.879 dot com slash house promo code house. Upgrade your sleep 227 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.639 with ghost bed, the makers of the coolest beds in 228 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.480 the world. Some exclusions apply. See site for details and 229 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:06.679 thank you go Sped for sponsoring the show. Please check 230 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:10.279 out the link down the description and support our sponsor. 231 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.519 All right, So they pulled you into drug trafficking cases 232 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.159 because you looked young and could do undercover work, and 233 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.519 then I think was the next thing for you working 234 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:27.000 on the personal security detachment for the governor? 235 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.559 Yeah, so I got asked to go to it's called 236 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:33.159 the Executive Protection Unit. 237 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:34.600 So I did that. 238 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:39.480 For a brief stint before going into crimes against children, 239 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.480 and then right towards the end of my career, I 240 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.159 went back to that with the different administration. 241 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.000 Yeah. I mean the first time around, it sounded like 242 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.720 you kind of got jammed up in a shitty situation 243 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.320 with was it like the chief of staff for the governor. 244 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:55.200 Yeah. 245 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:59.399 So I'll say, you know, in that scenario, you know, 246 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:03.399 people want to manage things in different ways. I think, 247 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.679 And what ended up happening is there was a threat 248 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.200 that had come in and the way that it was 249 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:14.720 handled they didn't really I think, care for a press 250 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:16.399 release that went out. 251 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:17.799 And and and so. 252 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.799 Because of that, I ended up having a talk with 253 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.039 my principle, and I don't think I was the best 254 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:29.799 person for that, because of my principle needs to focus 255 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:32.759 on how they're going to support their constituents. They shouldn't 256 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.919 be worried about other things that they're not comfortable with 257 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.759 a certain personnel. And really, in that instance, I mean, 258 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.279 if you've done protection work or people who do that, 259 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.279 the job's not about the people doing the work, it's 260 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:44.240 about your principle. 261 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:45.759 And it's really thankless. 262 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.039 And and there's so much stuff that goes on behind 263 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:52.960 the scenes that when everything you're doing all these things, 264 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:56.159 but it looks like absolutely everything's smooth, and that's how 265 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.120 it should be. No one should really know all the 266 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:02.000 things that you're doing. So in this instance, it didn't 267 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:06.200 work out, and I left. I left the unit and 268 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:07.840 went back to the road for a bit. 269 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.320 Yeah, and then how did you get pulled into this 270 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.440 whole thing with crimes against children? 271 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:21.360 So I was actually trying to get on to our 272 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:25.000 Washington State Fusion Center to work with someone I had 273 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.320 worked with before. He was He was a person that 274 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.559 recruited me to go into narcotics and he was at 275 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:32.480 the Fusion Center and I wanted to work with him again. 276 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.799 I'd learned a lot from him, and. 277 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.480 So I was preparing to go to that spot and 278 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:40.960 then someone who was in the division slid over to 279 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.879 that spot, so I wasn't able to get it. And 280 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.039 he said, Hey, do you know this guy. This guy's 281 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.080 name was Bill Steen. He was a marine recon guy. 282 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:50.720 And I was like, yeah, I know Bill. Always to 283 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.360 work together. And he's like, hey, why don't you contact him? 284 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:57.480 He works for the Missing Unexploited Children's Task Force. I 285 00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.440 think you could do a lot of good there. They 286 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.799 do a lot of good work. And I didn't even 287 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.720 really know what the task force was. There's this other 288 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.240 group that they're called Missing an Unidentified Person's Unit and 289 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:11.159 they deal with they do with dental records, trying to 290 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:14.159 recover people. They manage the AMBER program and they used 291 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:16.559 to put pictures on the side of semi trucks to 292 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.600 look for missing kids. And that's what I thought it was, 293 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.759 but it wasn't like that at all. So I went 294 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.039 and cross trained with them. I went and went to 295 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.039 a warrant and saw how they were doing things, and 296 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:28.840 I thought, how can I have not known that we 297 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.960 even do this, you know? And the other thing is 298 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:37.200 how can people trade these images of these horrible things, 299 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.639 of these kids getting raped? How can I didn't even 300 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.200 know it was a thing. So I thought, yeah, I 301 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.440 want to do this, this is this is what I 302 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:44.879 need to do. 303 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.679 Yeah, So Carlos told you, I mean, you're an audio 304 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:50.919 cut out on my end, but you said you were 305 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.960 talking about how you got into into investigating crimes against 306 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:59.639 children and you wanted to work with your buddy, but 307 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:01.639 that to work out, and where where did you end up? 308 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:03.600 Where did you end up landing? 309 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.639 So I I had I was, I was working the 310 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.159 road and it's called Bremerton, Washington. And then uh he 311 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:13.639 had told me, He's like, hey, have you heard of 312 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.840 the Missing and Exploited Children's Task Force or MECHTEFT? And 313 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.720 I thought it was I thought it was this. We 314 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.200 had another group in the patrol that would put pictures 315 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.679 of missing kids on the side of semi trucks and 316 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:27.759 then they mantled. They managed dental records, they managed the 317 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.919 Amber Alert program. I thought it was that, which it was, 318 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.039 and he's like, no, that's that's not the same outfit. 319 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.039 I think you should go and cross train there. He 320 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.360 asked me if I knew a guy named Bill Steen, 321 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.960 who's an old marine marine recon guy, and I'd worked 322 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.360 the road with him, and he said, uh, yeah, uh 323 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.000 I know Bill. You should go spend some time with Bill. 324 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.080 So I connected with Bill cross trained there. I went 325 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:55.000 to a search warrant where it was for uh, this 326 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.919 this guy. But there was a residence that was suspected 327 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.960 of trading child sexual abuse material or see SAM. 328 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:02.320 And the reason why I. 329 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:06.119 Say residents is we had a cyber tip that there 330 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.680 was a or that they had a cyber tip that 331 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.079 those images were being traded from an IP address. So 332 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.799 they had written a warrant for the residents that the 333 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.119 IP address belonged to. So you don't really know who's 334 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.039 trading inside. I mean, there may be some clues and 335 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.079 you figure that out when you interview people, but you 336 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.839 don't always know. So the warrant was for the residents 337 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.960 to recover those images. 338 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.119 So I went and cross trained, and then I learned. 339 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.640 I didn't even know as a thing that people would 340 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:39.119 trade these images of kids getting great videos photos. 341 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.279 I just that was totally new to me. 342 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.319 It's just disgusting, and I thought, this is something I 343 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:47.720 could get behind, This is something I could go and 344 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.440 try to hold these help hold these people accountable. So yeah, 345 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.519 I interviewed for it and it ultimately got the position. 346 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:57.240 And what was that position? 347 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.240 So I was the sergeant in the State Patrol. 348 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.720 If you are a part of a task force or detective, 349 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.599 then you're called detective sergeant. So I managed that task force. 350 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:09.759 And you know, and. 351 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:13.640 I'd been in the narcotics task force where I had 352 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:15.640 I had a prosecutor assigned to me. 353 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:16.559 I had. 354 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:22.200 Six or seven detectives. People knew what we did, multiple agencies, 355 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.839 I had admin support. When I went to this task force, 356 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.880 I didn't have any of that. It was myself. I 357 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:31.960 think I had two detectives at the time, and then uh, 358 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.119 because one was just about to retire, one from another agency, 359 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.799 and then Bill, the guy i'd met, We had no 360 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:39.519 admin support. 361 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:40.319 They just cut it. 362 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.279 And I'd learned that they were actually looking at cutting 363 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.359 the task force. They were going to eliminate it, which 364 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.000 ultimately that never happens because you know. 365 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.160 What, what. 366 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.559 Member of the House or the Senate is going to 367 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:58.359 vote on eliminating a team even if even if they 368 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:02.440 don't provide the support to make that team successful. Because 369 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.160 we didn't have enough people, we couldn't even serve a 370 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.240 warrant on our own. We always had to partner with 371 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.799 other people, ask people to help us so we could 372 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:14.440 serve a warrant safely. So, yeah, I was it wasn't 373 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:19.000 the most ideal when I got there. There was a 374 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.279 lot that it needed. Yeah, so we didn't have the 375 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:23.119 appropriate funding. 376 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.039 Pretty severely under resourced. 377 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:34.359 Oh yeah, we had, I think myself enough for two detectives, 378 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.119 and then Bill ended up getting getting out of there. 379 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.519 He promoted, and then we recruited two other people. One 380 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.039 was from the Narcotics Task Force I worked at because 381 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.880 I knew what he was about, so I recruited him over. 382 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.640 And then one other guy was a trooper who he 383 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:54.960 didn't really know how to do any detective work. But 384 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.400 the guy just he had potential and he was just motivated, 385 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:01.759 so he was he was a good fit. And then 386 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.160 we just we just worked cases, made friends, and that's 387 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:06.200 how we got stuff done. 388 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:07.319 In the beginning. 389 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.319 Yes, so tell us about, like, you know, your first 390 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.039 big case that you recall, and like, how did those 391 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:15.599 leads come about? Do they come about like people calling 392 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:17.759 the cops, like I think this guy's up to no good? 393 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.640 Or is it like I don't know how it works internally? 394 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:25.400 Cyber crime reports like this guy's trading illegal materials or 395 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:26.759 how's that come about? 396 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.319 Yeah, So there are a number of ways, yes, that 397 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:37.279 your community can call and report something. Then there's you 398 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.920 can have someone who's out in the field, who's a 399 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.759 beat cop trooper on the road. They may see something 400 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:49.000 and then they call another detective in another area that 401 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.119 they don't have necessarily have the expertise to work with that. 402 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:53.400 So we'd get those cases. 403 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.039 And then there's something called cyber tips, and those are 404 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:01.799 let's say, if you saw something thing online and you 405 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.240 thought this isn't right, or someone approached you like right 406 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.079 now it's roadblocks. So let's say there was something with 407 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.680 roadblocks that was inappropriate, you could you could report a 408 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.720 cyber tip through the National Center of Missing and Exploited Children. 409 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:16.759 It's called neck MAK or Missing Kids dot org. So 410 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:21.359 you can go there report whatever that you're seeing and 411 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:25.839 then that goes to that's the clearing house, and then 412 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.079 when those reports, those reports come in, they're sent out 413 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.119 to one of sixty one Internet Crimes against Children task 414 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.000 Forces i CAACKS and my task force was an affiliate, 415 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.240 an ICAC affiliate, so we didn't manage it. We didn't 416 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.480 manage IKAK for the entire state, even though we worked 417 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:44.880 cases all over. 418 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:46.480 The state, but we didn't manage the IKAC. 419 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:49.319 So we'd get we'd get cases, so we'd get cyber 420 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.160 tips and then proactive work. So once you have the 421 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:58.319 appropriate training, you can do undercover ops online, and we 422 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:02.160 did a lot of that towards the let's say after 423 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.160 I was there two or three years, we started doing 424 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.079 doing a lot of the under online undercover ops. 425 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.640 What were some of the first cases that you worked 426 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:11.480 on when you got there? 427 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:18.519 Oh, so, I'll say the one that comes to mind. 428 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:25.480 That I think, well, there's two. One was a coach 429 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:26.319 case that I had. 430 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.759 It was a coach who was a wrestling coach and 431 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.119 a football coach for for little little kids. And the 432 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:35.400 reason why that sticks out so much in my mind 433 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:39.599 is Bill had already left, he was a sergeant. He said, Hey, 434 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.480 this buddy, I knew him from wrestling. He called me, 435 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.640 his kids told him something and this is gonna be 436 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.319 a good case, but you should talk to him tomorrow 437 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.119 because he's really angry and he's drunk. 438 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:49.519 He got The. 439 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.839 Guy got loaded when he found out what happened, and 440 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.559 one of his boys was ranked number one in state 441 00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.039 at the time for wrestling and his his weight class, 442 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.119 and was just under a lot of stress. He had 443 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.279 recently reconnected with his mom, who had been out of 444 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:07.559 his life for a while. She she had shared something 445 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.279 that had happened in his life that was tragic. So 446 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.279 then he shared, Hey, this is what coach did to 447 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.319 me and my brother. And he goes, but I'm okay, 448 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.000 I'm a man, you know I can deal with it. 449 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:19.119 She couldn't. 450 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:21.440 She gonna handle it, So she ends up calling dad. 451 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.759 Dad ends up calling us, so and that one, you know, 452 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.079 he wasn't even trying to report it to disclose it. 453 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.599 So when we went and met with him. But the 454 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:33.200 thing why that, I mean, I have hundreds of cases 455 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.200 like that, I mean, but the reason why this one 456 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:38.519 sticks out is when I went and looked at the 457 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.519 guy's Facebook, he was hugging a kid and the kid 458 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.480 he was hugging, wasn't ended up not being a victim, 459 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.039 but the kid he was hugging, My son was at 460 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.160 this kid's house the weekend before. So I'm I'm freaking 461 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:52.960 out because I'm like, did this you know, all these 462 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:53.920 things are going through my head. 463 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:56.240 Did this guy do anything to my kid? You know what? 464 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:56.400 What? 465 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.680 Who is do I know any of these other children? 466 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.920 So that that one really stuck out. And the thing 467 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:08.880 that really sucked about that case is all of the offenses, 468 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.599 all the times that he had offended on this this 469 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.400 young man when he was a boy. Was they were 470 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:17.640 all out of state. They weren't in Washington from what 471 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:19.680 we had, so it was when he'd go on wrestling trips. 472 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:24.799 So it was in California. I believe Reno were the 473 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.400 two where the two areas, so we didn't have anything 474 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.839 in our area. So I'm I'm trying to work with 475 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.720 the Feds to see if they can do something. I'm 476 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.079 working with law enforcement down in California to try to 477 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:37.880 get something going on. And then they was saying we 478 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.160 only had the one because the other brother didn't want 479 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.960 to disclose what it happened, didn't want to meet with me. 480 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.480 So We're interviewing all these other people trying to get 481 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.799 other things, and we start following, following this coach around 482 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.640 because we have information he's going to go to Canada. 483 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:55.880 He's going to leave to Canada. 484 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.119 We're thinking eventually he's going to figure something out because 485 00:24:58.119 --> 00:24:59.279 we're asking these questions. 486 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:02.359 So we're he was surveilanced on the guy following him. 487 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:05.200 Call him in. We don't we can't arrest him. 488 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.759 I'm trying to get a warrant a restaurant from California, 489 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:10.880 and I'm trying to work with the a U s A. 490 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.039 But they want the other brother to disclose before they 491 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.079 do something because. 492 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.079 They want mores attorney the prosecutor. 493 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:24.279 Yes, they want more, so we don't have enough. So 494 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:26.319 but we follow this guy around for a couple hours, 495 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.079 call him. He says he's three hours away, which of 496 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:31.640 course he isn't because we're watching him. 497 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:32.480 Uh. 498 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.519 Then he ends up agreeing to come in, so we 499 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.839 interview him. We ask him all these questions, We take 500 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.200 him through this this processed timeline, and UH. 501 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.200 Through that we weren't able. We didn't. We weren't able 502 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:44.880 to arrest him that day, and he ended up going 503 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:46.000 to Canada. 504 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.039 But because of that, the timeline that he gave us 505 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.240 of all the places he lived in different places, we 506 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:53.240 were able to interview other people. And we had a 507 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.799 lot of the lot of UH kids that came forward 508 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:58.559 who are now adults. Some of them were adults, some 509 00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:02.759 we're still kids. So we partnered with FBI. They actually 510 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.880 flew in two of their child friends interviewers and we 511 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.039 spent a week just interviewing, doing safety interviews with all 512 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:12.039 these kids. And we had ten ten that came forward 513 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:15.519 in that case. And then the guy fled. We ended 514 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.920 up putting a we we're tracking that We had a 515 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:22.720 if he were to cross the border back and forth, 516 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:27.640 we'd be notified through HSI, and we tried to go 517 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:28.599 up on the guy's phone. 518 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:30.000 We weren't able. 519 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:35.440 He wasn't using the phone any longer. So the other 520 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:37.319 thing about this story is where he was staying. He 521 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:39.319 was living with his mom when he was in Washington, 522 00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:42.119 and I knew the neighbor, so I told the neighbor, 523 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.000 I said, hey, if you see this car show up, 524 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.160 you got to call me because it's this is bad dude. 525 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:48.200 And we won him. 526 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.480 So she calls one night and says, hey, the cars here, 527 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:54.279 so we set up on the on the place. We 528 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.480 didn't get notified that he had crossed, so we set 529 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.559 up on the house, see a guy that looks like 530 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:03.400 him and it ends up not being the guy we like, 531 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.440 end up pulling him over once we do takeaway, pull 532 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.119 him over and he the guy who it was. This 533 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.880 guy's uncle used to be a detective who worked the 534 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:18.000 same cases that that we did, and he was actually 535 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.519 one of the guys that helped write the law that 536 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:22.480 created the task force. Also was kind of weird, but 537 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.160 he said, yeah, the car, the guy's car is here 538 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:30.039 because he got arrested in Montana and his they hadn't 539 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.440 cleared his warrant yet, so we didn't know because yeah, 540 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:34.400 he got he got arrested in Montana, so his parents 541 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.200 went up picked up the car, brought it down here 542 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.279 and goes there's there's a bunch of laptops in there 543 00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:41.599 and digital media in the car. 544 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.079 So we ended up getting a warrant for that, and he 545 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:49.680 ends up coming down. We ended up in getting charges 546 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:50.039 on him. 547 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.920 He didn't he didn't submit to another interview, but because 548 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.960 of that first day when we were following him around 549 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:56.759 and all the places he went we had seen him 550 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:58.920 go to a storage unit, so we're able to get 551 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.880 a warrant for the storage unit, and we searched through 552 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.079 this whole. It was about the size of a one 553 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.680 car garage, and the very last box in the back 554 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:10.519 that we were in there were we recovered a bunch 555 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.000 of child sexual abuse material that he had staved in 556 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:15.720 the very We searched the whole thing, pulled everything out 557 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.640 and that's where we found the material. 558 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.680 That that case. The the reason why I think about 559 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:24.359 that one because that one haunts me a little bit 560 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:27.400 because there's one one kid in there. We found some 561 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:31.839 images and we were never never able to identify who 562 00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:33.519 that kid was, so. 563 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:39.519 That I mean that it really bugs me. It bothered 564 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.440 me for a long time until this year recently because 565 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:48.200 there's so many changes with with software and technology. The 566 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.839 my detective he still works there, he says, hey, I 567 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.799 think we found that kid. So I don't know if 568 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:56.880 they've reached out to because me that he's an adult now, 569 00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.279 but at least see we can get him some resources 570 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:04.039 and we knew that he had created. His name is 571 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.640 Scott Carroll. He's in prison down in Oregon right now. 572 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:10.440 But the reason why we knew it was him, and 573 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.799 the images is he had this unique tattoo. He had 574 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:16.759 a barbell on right here on his hand that was 575 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:19.359 bent and it was in all the images, so we 576 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.920 were able to track it to him. And we tried 577 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.960 everything at the time to find that kid, and we 578 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.039 had the GPS for his phone off all the towers. 579 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.240 We looked to see where he was, the different timestamps. 580 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.599 We contacted all the different school districts trying to identify 581 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:35.559 who he was. And we went just up and down 582 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.559 the I five corridor where he went and tried to 583 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.160 see if we could identify this kid, and it just 584 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:42.960 weren't able to do it at the time. 585 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:46.839 But at least there's some closure now, so that's good. 586 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:50.559 And you said, this guy's in prison now, thankfully. So 587 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.160 this case did get prosecuted. 588 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.559 Oh yeah, yes, yeah, I got prosecuted. 589 00:29:57.079 --> 00:29:59.799 We ended up working with law enforcement down in Oregon 590 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.920 because some of the victims were from Oregon. 591 00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:03.960 So there he had offended on that. 592 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.720 We know of people in California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and 593 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.200 we believe Canada, but we didn't get we didn't really 594 00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:21.119 get much feedback from from them. 595 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.400 And it sounds like as an early case. You know, 596 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.440 this one's a little haunting in the sense that you know, 597 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:28.720 because of your personal connection, your son being at one 598 00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:31.160 of the victims' homes at at one point for just 599 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:35.279 a normal you know, play day or whatever, that must 600 00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:38.240 have opened your eyes about how this stuff is all 601 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:39.480 around us all the time. 602 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.160 Yeah, I'll tell you. 603 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:47.039 You know, people always say, well, what like when you 604 00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.119 talk about crimes against you, it's everywhere. 605 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:50.640 I mean, there are people out there. 606 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.519 I mean we did our demand ops where people were 607 00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.519 seeking to have k sex with kids thirteen and younger. 608 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.319 We'd average seven arrests a night doing that. And that 609 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.839 was just that's not even that's not on the darknet. 610 00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:10.640 That was on Craigslist or these different apps where people 611 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:11.599 want to meet each other. 612 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.480 It was on those types of apps. 613 00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:16.480 And it's so it's easy as ordering pizza to get 614 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.759 grabbing a door dash. I mean, that's that's how easy 615 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.119 it was. And we could have worked around the clock. 616 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.880 I just didn't have the resources because when you work 617 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.319 those cases, you have to worry about one your people, 618 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:31.400 uh and the fatigue of your people, because if you 619 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.680 don't manage that, they're going to start to make little mistakes, 620 00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.759 they're gonna maybe they maybe it increases the chance of 621 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.519 a use of force, Maybe they missed something in a report. 622 00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.599 And then someone gets off on some little you know, 623 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:47.160 a problem that could have been avoided. Someone doesn't make 624 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.759 the right decision, someone doesn't review something and they miss something. 625 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.319 So we would when we built those teams and we're 626 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.160 doing those operations, we would make sure that we we 627 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.319 scheduled it a certain way. 628 00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:57.599 We'd cap it at a certain time. 629 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:00.559 If there was a target that we needed to handle 630 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.240 later that night or early in the morning, we'd have 631 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.759 we'd pull a small team together and we'd focus on 632 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:05.920 that so we can keep going. 633 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.160 And we do those ops about a week at a time. 634 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.119 When I was there, that's what we would do. 635 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:14.200 So And what was that other case you mentioned from 636 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:16.119 those early days that kind of stands out for you. 637 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.440 Uh, there's another one where I'd say I'd been in 638 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.759 there a couple of months in the Task force, and uh, 639 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:30.119 but my buddy Bill called me and said, hey, we 640 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.039 got a really bad one. And I was like, Okay, 641 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:35.400 I'll drive in. He's like, no, no, you don't need 642 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.319 to come in. We can we can handle it tomorrow. 643 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.559 And I was like, well he cuss on here. I 644 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.240 was like, well, you know, fuck dude. 645 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:42.799 Okay. 646 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.200 I was like, fuck dude, everything we do is bad, 647 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.319 you know, and you're calling me. He's like, no, no, 648 00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:50.319 it's it's fine. We had a lot of cases going on. 649 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.240 He was working a case, investigating a retired cop like that, 650 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.640 was doing stuff. So I mean, we're doing everything. So 651 00:32:56.680 --> 00:33:00.599 I stayed home, went in the next day, went in early, 652 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:04.680 read the cyber tip, and it was just horrific. It 653 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:08.480 was these two they're like practically kids, they're in their twenties. 654 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.880 They're on this application where they just go and meet 655 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:14.720 each other. They can show pictures, they could do the 656 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.440 live kind of like how TikTok is now, but as 657 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:23.240 one of the earlier applications, and they're talking about doing 658 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:24.440 things with their kids. 659 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.200 Like she had a little baby boy who was six 660 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.680 months old. So some of the contents pretty graphic, I'll 661 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.039 sanitize it. But and then. 662 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:36.559 The other guy was doing stuff with his sister and 663 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.440 brother and then animals that were on the farm, and 664 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:42.480 they were sharing these images. And she had shared an 665 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.200 image with something that she had made with her kid. 666 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:49.119 And so when I saw that, and I was new 667 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.599 that this was the first time. I'll say it affected me. 668 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.839 I mean I had to take a breath. Luckily, I'm 669 00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:57.720 glad I was the only one that I could come 670 00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.720 in early, so no one was there to see that 671 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:03.920 it how it was affecting me, and I thought, we 672 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:06.480 got to get this kid. I mean, I should have 673 00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:09.119 been out yesterday. So I called Bill and I was like, man, 674 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.559 we gotta go get this kid. So on that case, 675 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.000 I actually partner with someone else in our crew was 676 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:19.199 great at interviewing because Bill was working. 677 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.239 This other case with this former cop. 678 00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:25.880 And we had two addresses that were about about an 679 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:29.159 hour from where my office was in one to two 680 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.599 hours if I remember correctly, from each other. So we 681 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:33.320 set up on one place to try to find the 682 00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:38.239 mom first because she had the youngest child and wasn't there. 683 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:42.719 So then we went to another city, it's called Montesano, 684 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.719 and we set up on the house and didn't see anything. 685 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.000 But then my other detective who was with me, there 686 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:52.760 was a soccer game or something and he saw a 687 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:54.960 cop that he knew, and so we went talked to 688 00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:56.800 him and he's like, hey, do you know about this house. 689 00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:59.559 He's like, yeah, I know. The landlord, So call the landlord. 690 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.400 Ended up, yes, she lives there, So we went out 691 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:06.119 real early the next morning, ended up grabbing her and 692 00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:07.000 the kid off a bus. 693 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:07.840 There was a school bus. 694 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.599 While we had made contact at the residence and then 695 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.800 interviewed her and she remember when we interviewed her, she 696 00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:18.800 was so matter of fact about what she had done, 697 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.679 the different things that she was involved in. And actually 698 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.440 later after that case, I went back and interviewed her 699 00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:28.159 in prison. I met with her a couple of times 700 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.000 and she helped me develop my undercover role because I 701 00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:34.800 played the part of a mom with kids. But she 702 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.000 she helped me with that. 703 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.800 So we because when you interviewed her the first time, 704 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.519 that like she felt that you were sitting there judging her. Right. 705 00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:48.239 Yeah, So when we do interviews, we would have a 706 00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:49.960 one and a two. So if you're the one in 707 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.960 an interview, you're the one who's asking most of the 708 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.679 questions and explaining everything to the person. The two usually 709 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.400 takes notes and then we'll come in and ask questions. 710 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:00.719 That's how we were trained. So I was the two, 711 00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.840 and so I just really just sat there the whole 712 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:09.320 time and listened because my detective is doing a great job, 713 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.320 and she was just engaging with him, talking back and forth. 714 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.480 We're getting the evidence that we needed, and so I 715 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:18.280 didn't really say anything. Then we went back and talked 716 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:21.800 to her and she's like, you you you just sat 717 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.280 there the whole time and you judged me. And I thought, what, well, 718 00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:27.039 here's and then I explained what I just explained to 719 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.280 you to her and she's like, well, you need to 720 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:33.559 tell the people that you are talking to. You need 721 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:35.719 to tell them that because that will help you. So 722 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.280 we actually started to do that. So when we did interviews, 723 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:40.800 we'd introduce ourselves, we talk about what's going on, do 724 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:43.199 they have any questions, asked the questions, and we just 725 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:44.760 told them what. 726 00:36:44.679 --> 00:36:49.599 We were doing to a certain you know sometimes yeah. Yeah. 727 00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:51.639 So we'd go through that and then say, you know, 728 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.280 if you see me write something down and then scratch 729 00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:57.639 it off, that's because you already answered the question. So 730 00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.639 you know, don't think we're judging you in any way. 731 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.599 So that's what we would do, just a real empathetic approach. 732 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.239 Well, I take it you were trained on the read 733 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:06.360 interrogation method. 734 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:12.320 Yeah, so we did read and I'll say, with uh, 735 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:17.760 with interviewing, I think you really should take go to 736 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.480 as many interview courses as you can, and you really 737 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.280 need to develop your own style. The one that I 738 00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:28.079 really like that really changed how I interview people. It's 739 00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:31.719 called the guy's name is doctor Joe Sullivan. He's from 740 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:35.480 Ireland and he trains people on how to interview people 741 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:38.559 who are sexually attracted to kids. And he goes into 742 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:43.320 the different behavioral analysis of different people and the personas 743 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.239 that they would be present to you, whether they're a 744 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.039 good guy, person of status, if it's a power control, 745 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:51.840 what type of power control, more of a sadist, versus 746 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.400 you can have someone else who's it is just about 747 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.519 it is more about the sex or versus just the pain. 748 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:04.280 So just these different different ways of these people may 749 00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:07.320 present to you this way. If you see this and 750 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:11.920 you identify this, then these questions may work and these 751 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.559 questions most likely won't. And going that approach and seeing 752 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:18.159 how it changes, and then you can also use that 753 00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:20.800 when you're chatting undercover, because you're getting an idea of 754 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.079 what type of person they're presenting and then seeing how 755 00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:26.400 they present when you're actually they've been caught and you're. 756 00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:27.239 Talking to them. 757 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:29.440 So I think if you you know, you take that 758 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.599 and that works can work for anything, not just sex predators. 759 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:33.800 But I think you take. 760 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.119 That, you take read, you take whatever whatever other trainings 761 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.159 you've gone to, and you really develop your own, your 762 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.559 own style so you can have a conversation. And I 763 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:47.440 train on interviewing on these types of cases. And that's 764 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.039 really what I what I try to push is you know, 765 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.360 if you're here for my course, it's not I'm not 766 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.000 going to teach you all of these things because if 767 00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:56.800 you do the read method and let's say you step 768 00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:59.920 you miss one of the steps, defense is going to 769 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:02.239 try to attack you on that because you didn't do 770 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:04.639 all of these things right. So as long as you 771 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.239 can articulate it, you're usually okay. But sometimes your prosecutor 772 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:08.400 is not as good. It's not going to ask the 773 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:10.719 right question back if you can't get that information out. 774 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.920 So really put something together and develop your style and 775 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:22.599 then always improve and then just realizes when you interview somebody, 776 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:25.639 really what you're doing is you're creating a roadmap for 777 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:29.119 the prosecutor so when the case goes to them. Because 778 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.239 I remember when I was new and we'd go to 779 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.800 trial or whatever, and I'd have this I thought it 780 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:36.639 was this great interview and it got the guy to 781 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.679 say all this stuff. And then they wouldn't put me 782 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.239 on for the interviewer. They wouldn't show the video. And 783 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:43.519 I was like, why I did such a great job, 784 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:45.360 why didn't you do this? And he's like, well, think 785 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:47.840 of it this way. That's you're giving me the roadmap. 786 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:49.719 You're giving me all the tools to ask the questions. 787 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.480 If I put you on, the guy's not going to 788 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:53.599 go on the stand. If I do this, there's a 789 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:55.360 better chance that he's going to go on stand, and 790 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:55.760 then I. 791 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.320 Can ask all these questions while he's on the stand. 792 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.639 And I was really helpful just learning from I've been 793 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:05.119 very fortunate to work with a lot of different prosecutors 794 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:07.440 since I got to go all around the state and 795 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:09.519 just learn a lot from from them because it's really 796 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:10.360 a team effort. 797 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.039 But yeah, I think I got off a tangent there. 798 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.480 No, it's all good, Okay. I love the techniques and 799 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.400 the trade craft. But as I recall, on this case, 800 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:24.000 you guys did pick up the boyfriends too, right. 801 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.960 Yeah, So after we recovered the little boy and the 802 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:33.800 mom mom went to jail, then we needed to find 803 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.519 the other guy's name was Chris, So we need to 804 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:40.599 find Chris, and he was about an hour away. So 805 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:44.239 same scenario. There were two houses that we had identified 806 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:46.519 that he may be at, So I set up on 807 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.159 one in an area called Spanaway, Washington. It's outside of Tacoma, Washington. 808 00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:52.800 And then the other house was actually close to our 809 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.039 district headquarters in between pew All Up Lakewood area in 810 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.880 Washington State, and so we had people with eyes on there. 811 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:02.519 I had eyes on in the other house, but we 812 00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:04.599 were we were spread. Then I didn't have many people, 813 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.760 so were trying to get people to the area. 814 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:09.800 And then we had. 815 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:12.119 The detective was sitting at the PD getting ready to 816 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.159 he was working on the warrant for the two locations. 817 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.199 So Chris ends up rolling by and I see him 818 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:21.079 at the house. So I'm like, hey, I got eyes 819 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:24.039 on this guy, send me another leave someone with eyes 820 00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.159 on there, how far out of the other guys, so 821 00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:27.559 that we can go do a knock and. 822 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:29.400 Talk on on on the house. 823 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:31.840 And because I wanted to recover the phone when he 824 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:34.880 when he parked and exited, he was on he was 825 00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:38.039 on an iPhone and we knew he had communicated. She 826 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:40.400 said he had an iPhone and they had exchanged these images, 827 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:43.960 so we wanted that piece of evidence. But yeah, so 828 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.360 we ended up we ended up getting Chris and finding 829 00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:53.880 evidive evidence of he had received the image he had there. 830 00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:56.559 Through the search warrants, we found things he had done, 831 00:41:56.679 --> 00:41:58.840 horrible things he had done to his sister. 832 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:01.119 He was I had conversations. 833 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:03.960 He had his sister's panties in a box under the bed. 834 00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:07.119 Right, yes, yeah, okay, he did. 835 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:14.880 Yeah, so you guys got him, Thank god. You know 836 00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:17.719 the thing I want to ask you too, from your 837 00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.280 experience in doing these interviews, and part of the interview 838 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.119 process is you have to try to empathize with them 839 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:27.239 a little bit to get them to open up. And 840 00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:29.519 I know that's a that's an interview technique. But at 841 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:32.159 the same time, you have a lot of insight. And 842 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:37.000 I realize the average American has an attitude and I 843 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.480 understand where it comes from, of course, of like we 844 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:41.280 should just shoot these people in the street. 845 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:43.039 Yeah, but. 846 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:48.599 You and people like you come to understand who these 847 00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:51.400 criminals are and why they do the things that they 848 00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:56.440 do in some cases, And I want to ask you about, 849 00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:00.480 like what insights you took away from that because it 850 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.000 seems like there are two types of people. There are 851 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.320 somes that are abused as children and they become abusers themselves, 852 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:11.239 and then there's another type of person that gets abused 853 00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.760 and they come to the conclusion that I would never 854 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:18.039 ever put another person through that. I want to know 855 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:20.199 what your take is on it and what you think 856 00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:20.800 about all this. 857 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.920 I'll say from my experience, well, a couple of things 858 00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:29.800 is there are some studies that try to support statistics 859 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:32.960 on you know, what's more prevalent, but really it's a 860 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:36.679 lot of that's unless it's documented that something happened to 861 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.239 that person. You're having to listen, you know, are they 862 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:41.360 telling you the truth or sure? 863 00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:44.119 Right? So, what I will. 864 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:47.559 Say from my experience that if someone is offended upon, 865 00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:50.679 it does not mean that they're going to become someone 866 00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:55.320 that abuses another person or offends on someone. But from 867 00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:56.880 what I've seen is there have been a lot of 868 00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:03.239 people who have are abusing kids that they were abused, 869 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.159 if that makes sense, there is more likely than not 870 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:10.079 that did happen. From from what I've seen the people 871 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:12.679 who have who I've talked to when they said some 872 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.360 people they deny it. And then also like the training 873 00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:19.599 I went through with doctor Sullivan, he's he's a psycho 874 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.719 psychiatrist or a psychologists, so when people talk to him, 875 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:27.239 they're not looking at they're already arrested, so it's easier 876 00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.639 for them to be more forthright versus me and the 877 00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:32.079 law enforce. And that my capacity is a law enforcement 878 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:36.239 officer interviewing them about things that even if I'm being 879 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.280 successful with them giving me evidence, they still know the 880 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:42.039 things I'm saying are it's going to get me in trouble, 881 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.280 so they're they're not always as as forthright. 882 00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:52.119 Mm. And as time goes on, you started doing a 883 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.679 lot of these I don't want to call them entrapment 884 00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:59.639 operations because because it's in trouble, I don't know what 885 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.440 the law enforcement term is. But you're out there trying 886 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.599 to kind of bait in potential predators and catch them 887 00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:09.519 before they're able to do something really bad, sort of 888 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:16.400 the what's his face Chris Hansen, Uh, Yeah, that's operations. 889 00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:21.719 Yeah, that's what everybody relates to what we used to do, 890 00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.400 except I think, well, first off, the major difference I 891 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:29.400 think is when somebody shows up to rape a kid 892 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.000 that's thirteen and younger, because that's what we focused on. 893 00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:34.480 The youngest was three years old. That someone showed up 894 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.480 to try to do something to a child is we 895 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:40.960 don't have a reporter there that's there to interview it. 896 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.239 You know, a lot of those cases, I don't know 897 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.440 I'd have to do, I'd never have verified it. But 898 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.440 I don't think a lot of them were held accountable 899 00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:50.199 as compared to like with us the cases we did. 900 00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:53.840 And we had a lot of challenges about it to 901 00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:55.840 say that we were entrapping and things like that. But 902 00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:58.639 and watch the state. When people show up, they have 903 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.760 to take a substantial step up. And oftentimes these people 904 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:06.960 took multiple substantial steps and then just leaving a way 905 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.079 out where you know, they don't they don't have to 906 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:11.480 show up. You know, we're not We're not We're not 907 00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:13.840 coercing them into doing this. These are things that they're 908 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.159 set out to do. When we first started doing those ops, 909 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.360 we did it on Craigslist and in an area called 910 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:24.880 It's It's no longer there was they they Craigslist got 911 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:27.400 rid of the section when Backpage went down around that 912 00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:32.360 same time, and and we'd go into an area called 913 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.760 casual Encounters, and it's an area specifically designed for people 914 00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:41.000 wanting to hook up. So you're already there people talking 915 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:44.360 about sex, and there was everything in this place. 916 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:46.719 The people want to run of the mill prostitution as well. 917 00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:48.519 Well. 918 00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:52.880 It could be people, you know, persons that are potentially trafficked, 919 00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.679 for people that are selling selling themselves for money. It 920 00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:01.199 could be hey, I'm I'm kinky, I'm looking, I'm looking 921 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:03.119 to do this, and there's a lot of stuff that 922 00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.559 it was kinky as fush, but it was legal, right, 923 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:08.920 so and we're not that wasn't our focus, right, Our 924 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:11.960 focus was you know, and when we first did it. 925 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:13.880 So how I found out about doing this is I 926 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:17.440 went to this training and I saw somebody do do 927 00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.679 something they were out of I believe it was Florida. 928 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:22.199 I saw too, but I think with one of our 929 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.679 remembers Florida, and they were doing and the ages were older, 930 00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:27.079 and I thought we could do something like this for 931 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.239 younger because a lot of the images I'm seeing, you know, 932 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:33.639 they're not all from a third world country of Eastern Europe, 933 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.199 they're from here. We're seeing images from here. Or these 934 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:39.480 kids that are running away and that are being trafficked, 935 00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:43.400 you know, what are they running from and where are 936 00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:46.480 they going? So there has to be a demand for this. 937 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.400 You know, people are this is going on. And I 938 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.960 remember the first time I posted an ad on Craigslist. 939 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:55.079 It was one was flagged within about ten minutes. But 940 00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:59.199 I had hundreds of responses like that, and I thought 941 00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.239 we were going to fail. You know, when I was 942 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.159 planning it, I was like, I got together with my 943 00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:05.760 old Drug Task Force unit, said hey, I don't have 944 00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:08.559 the bodies. Can you guys be arrest team surveillance. I'm 945 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:11.039 already familiar with the prosecutor there. You know, what do 946 00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:13.920 you think about trying this in that area? First we 947 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.920 got two apartments. One was our command post, the other 948 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:19.400 one is where we'd send the people and where the 949 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.800 mom would answer the door. And so we kind of 950 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.559 we kind of ran it that way, and I thought, 951 00:48:26.599 --> 00:48:27.920 and I told them, I was like, hey, I don't know, 952 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:29.679 I don't know if people are going to show up, 953 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:31.719 but we want to try to see if this would work. 954 00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:35.599 And yeah, it was. It was like Gangbusters. It was crazy. 955 00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:36.440 I think out of. 956 00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.920 The I participated in sixteen of the ops before I 957 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:43.119 went to back to the go of detail, and I 958 00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:46.840 think the most at one was like twenty nine people 959 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:49.559 within a four or five day period that we arrested. 960 00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.840 So and you look at the cases. I mean, they're 961 00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:57.320 used to not testify a lot when we work these cases. 962 00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:01.239 But these cases in Washington State, the what they were 963 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:03.400 looking at, if for a temp rape of a child 964 00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:05.960 at the time, I don't know if the laws changed, 965 00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.760 but at the time, if it was eleven and younger, 966 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.840 they were looking at potentially ten years to life because 967 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:15.840 they're indeterminate sentences in Washington State sent them off to 968 00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:18.800 this island. They have an island in Washington where they 969 00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:23.400 go this Sexual Assessment Center or I don't know exactly 970 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:26.159 what it's called, but it's on McNeil Island. And then 971 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.159 but if it's ages twelve through thirteen, then it's five 972 00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.519 years to life that they can get. So we went 973 00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:35.920 to trial a lot more and the cases were solid. 974 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:37.679 They're challenged. They went all the way up. We had 975 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.559 some go all the way up to our Supreme Court. 976 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.559 But the case law was good. There were some things 977 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:46.280 where we learned, Okay, don't do it necessarily that way, 978 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:48.840 we should maybe do it this way. And you know, 979 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:51.480 you have to change and learn learn from that, you know, 980 00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:55.880 lessons learned. But overall, when you read the cases, I mean, 981 00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.239 what these people are showing up to do and the 982 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:02.760 things that they say, Yeah, it's it's terrific and it's easy. 983 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:05.760 I went and taught something down in Oregon, a class 984 00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:08.079 on how to run the ops at a conference, and 985 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:09.679 I said, you guys want to see how easy it is. 986 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:14.559 I pulled out the iPad, put my undercover persona on there. 987 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:17.920 We had someone offer us. He had a choice. He 988 00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:20.880 wanted two girls. Ended up only doing oneting one and 989 00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.599 it was offering or I was. I was playing the 990 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.039 part of a thirteen year old runaway and offered her 991 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:29.079 two hundred bucks to meet. So got with the prosecutor 992 00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:31.239 and an officer that was there that worked in the unit, 993 00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:33.199 and they had actually this was a target of theirs 994 00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.599 that they hadn't got before. So they ended up arresting 995 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:38.400 him two days later. So I mean, it's it's just 996 00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.199 that easy. 997 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:43.039 Exact What was that difficult for you to, like, you're 998 00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:45.960 literally having a role play everything from a thirteen year 999 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:49.719 old runaway to a mother or father that's trying to 1000 00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:53.239 prostitute their children. Was that kind of like difficult for 1001 00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:55.119 you to play that role. 1002 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:02.119 I'll say I wish I could say yes, But I 1003 00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:05.760 think being surrounded with all of that material when you're 1004 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.400 doing the work, you have the subject matter. 1005 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:13.000 I mean, you're when you work those cases, you're you're 1006 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.639 just surrounded by this. It's just shit. I mean it's ugly. 1007 00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.679 That's why it's called the ugly underneath. I call it 1008 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:23.800 the ugly. I mean you're just surrounded by ugliness. And 1009 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:28.599 so it was I had the subject matter to pull 1010 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:30.440 from to play the role. 1011 00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:34.280 I think the part that was was difficult. Well, there 1012 00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.280 were a couple things. 1013 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:41.800 One not getting not having that stuff stick to you 1014 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.880 so that you're thinking about it all the time, not 1015 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.800 becoming really skeptical and thinking everybody is like this because 1016 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:51.280 I'm in it all the time. And I had to 1017 00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:55.599 remind myself not everyone wants to do this, you know, 1018 00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:59.239 because I'm deep in it. And then so I had 1019 00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:02.760 to I had to correct my thinking to know, hey, 1020 00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:06.159 this is not how the world is. I'm here because 1021 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:08.320 I'm in this world trying to do this, but not 1022 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.880 everyone's like this. There there are good people out there. 1023 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:14.320 And then I think it was just dealing with it. 1024 00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:20.880 And what you do is you start to oh, sorry, 1025 00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:25.239 that's my cat getting paid or getting getting food. So 1026 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:31.679 I uh, I think for me it was sorry, I 1027 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:33.800 didn't know that was going to go on. But for 1028 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:39.199 me it was you start to turn off your emotions 1029 00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.280 so you can deal with this. And I just think 1030 00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:43.559 it happens. I mean, I'm sure with and I listened. 1031 00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:45.760 I didn't finish your book by I listened to your 1032 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:48.760 book and listen to your podcast. But just some of 1033 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:50.440 the things I've here is, you know you have to 1034 00:52:51.320 --> 00:52:54.119 in order to do the work, you have the capacity 1035 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.239 to do the work, you have to shut certain things 1036 00:52:57.280 --> 00:52:58.119 off so you can do it. 1037 00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:00.079 And to protect your lot. 1038 00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:02.280 And disassociate from certain things. 1039 00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:04.280 Yep. Yeah. 1040 00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:08.039 And I think that the thing that I had an 1041 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:12.239 issue with is when I tried to turn things back on, 1042 00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:19.800 it didn't always work, and I really I just became disassociated. 1043 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.119 I didn't it was hard for me to feel certain things. 1044 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:25.280 I compassion fatigue. 1045 00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:25.639 You know. 1046 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:28.480 I would think, oh, well, I'm dealing with real problems, 1047 00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:30.639 and I'd go home and you know, my wife's telling 1048 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.239 me about her day or my kids, and I was like, 1049 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:34.559 you know, those aren't problems. 1050 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:34.679 You know. 1051 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.920 So I had the compassion fatigue where I didn't really 1052 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.960 I wasn't really there for them to try to help 1053 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.000 them deal. 1054 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:45.679 With what they needed needed to do. So that was 1055 00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:47.519 was difficult in an area that I think I could 1056 00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:48.960 have done done better. 1057 00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:52.639 Yeah, no, I want to ask you more about that, 1058 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:55.320 about kind of the psychological toll that it takes on 1059 00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:59.000 on the police that do this. You know, you're you're 1060 00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:02.400 wearing your t shirt for the International Association of Human 1061 00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:07.000 Trafficking Investigators and I got invited down to one of 1062 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.199 their symposiums years ago and it was a huge eye 1063 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:15.920 opener for me. I remember afterwards sitting down with one 1064 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:19.440 of the cops and talking to him about, you know, 1065 00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.519 what his job is, and he he told me, he's like, 1066 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:26.000 you know, this morning, I walked out into the beach. 1067 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:29.119 This is out in Tampa, and he's like, I just 1068 00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:31.960 looked out at the ocean and I just thought, it 1069 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:34.039 feels so good to not have to look at kiddie 1070 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:39.159 porn today. And Yeah, that's like struck me, Like, imagine 1071 00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:43.079 what this dude's day to day life is like. That 1072 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:48.000 this conference is like a break from from the horrible 1073 00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:50.760 stuff that he has to see all the time. So 1074 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.920 I can only imagine what the police officers go through. 1075 00:54:56.360 --> 00:54:59.280 Yeah, I you know, I was just talking to a guy. 1076 00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.239 I'm going to a conference in April, and I was 1077 00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:07.440 talking to the person who handles the vendors and I 1078 00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:09.480 actually told him about the book and he's like wow. 1079 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:10.639 He goes, uh, you. 1080 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.320 Know, I used to work those cases, and you know, 1081 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:15.159 I wish, I wish I would have. I was telling 1082 00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:17.679 you about this training. It's called the Shift Training. It's 1083 00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:23.760 by the Innocent Justice Innocent Justice Foundation. They provide mental 1084 00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:26.880 health and wellness for people who do this type of 1085 00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:29.639 work and they travel around a different conferences and I 1086 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:31.039 was telling him about it and he's like, yeah, I 1087 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:33.239 never got to go to any of that. He goes, 1088 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:36.480 I wish I would have done that. And it's just 1089 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.840 it's something that I know, at least our task force, 1090 00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:42.199 it was mandatory, so we'd go. And I know that 1091 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.400 I capt task forces want you to do it, but 1092 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:48.119 I just don't think everybody does it. And I know 1093 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:50.519 with me doing the work, I tried to be a 1094 00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:52.679 really good example for my people and take care of 1095 00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:56.079 my people, but I didn't always follow what I said 1096 00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:00.760 to do, and that took a a toll. You know, 1097 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:06.119 about taking breaks when having that disconnect for when you're 1098 00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:08.639 looking at that material and you work in the cases, 1099 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.760 you know, you bring that stuff home, but having a 1100 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:14.400 built in process so that you have a break before 1101 00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.679 you go home so you can be present for your family. 1102 00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:21.199 And because really, I mean, I don't know, do you 1103 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:26.039 have kids. Yeah, yeah, So when you go home. You 1104 00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:27.719 used to go home and you say, hey, give me 1105 00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:30.480 fifteen minutes. I mean, you don't ever get the fifteen minutes. 1106 00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:32.719 And that's because they want to see, you know, a 1107 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:34.719 dad's home. They're happy, they want to tell you about 1108 00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:36.320 their day, they want to do these things. They love 1109 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.400 you and your significant other that it's the same thing. 1110 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.480 So you don't always get that. So we had built 1111 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:47.280 something in where if you before you went home, you 1112 00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:49.920 had to have at least two hours where you weren't 1113 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.639 focused on any of that stuff. You do something else, 1114 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:54.400 you do where you're not looking at the images, you're 1115 00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:56.800 not looking at the ugly you're doing something. And then 1116 00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:58.320 we had an hour commute home, so it was an 1117 00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:00.320 hour at the end of the day. Then you we 1118 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:03.679 had to drive home and then you you go and 1119 00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:04.400 you be with your fans. 1120 00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.079 You go and get like an iced tea, at Dunkin 1121 00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:09.519 Donuts or something, right. 1122 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.079 Yeah, So I like, I mean, I was worked in 1123 00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:15.719 you know, near Seattle, so a big Starbucks thing up there. 1124 00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:17.320 My daughter worked for Starbucks for a time. 1125 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.599 So I'd go to Starbucks and I'd get I don't 1126 00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:24.960 drink coffee, don't. I just never liked it, but I 1127 00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:27.760 drink tea. So I would go there, I'd get a tea. 1128 00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:30.559 I'd park behind. There was a Sizzler there, so I'd 1129 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:34.039 parked behind the Sizzlers and I'd just play this little game. 1130 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:36.400 I think they still have a clash of clans. It's 1131 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:38.320 like this dumb game. So I'd play that for a 1132 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:41.360 little bit, get my head straight, and then i'd uh. 1133 00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:44.320 I'd drive home and i'd see, you know, my kids, 1134 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:47.480 and and I I wish I could say I did 1135 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.599 that every day because I think that would have helped 1136 00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:53.679 me get my my head on straight and be present 1137 00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:55.239 for them. 1138 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:58.039 When we switched offices, because that's when we were in Olympi, Washington. 1139 00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:03.480 We ended up being co located with the FBI's se 1140 00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:06.079 their c TEFT, and. 1141 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.880 So the child explotation tasks for us, and that changed 1142 00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:14.000 my routine of going home. There wasn't a Starbucks on 1143 00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:17.559 the way home. So I noticed, well, actually it was 1144 00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:21.199 my ex wife. She noticed that I was angry. It 1145 00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:23.239 was a lot angrier. Sometimes I take things out on 1146 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.239 her or the kids. I'd like snap at them or 1147 00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.039 something like that. And then she brought it to my attention, 1148 00:58:29.199 --> 00:58:31.320 and then I changed for a little bit, but I 1149 00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:33.119 went back to what I was doing. 1150 00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:34.440 I really, I really wasn't. 1151 00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:38.400 I hold myself accountable with my own mental illness as 1152 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:39.920 much as I think as I could have. 1153 00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:42.960 It's hard when you're when you're in it, and you 1154 00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:46.000 feel such a sense of urgency, right that you're seeing 1155 00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.800 these kids that are victimized, and you know for reasons 1156 00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:52.480 that you can kind of write off in your mind. 1157 00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:56.719 You're like, I have, I'm sacrificing family life because I'm 1158 00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:01.199 on this you know, righteous mission and finding that balance 1159 00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:04.519 is something that's so hard and most of us don't 1160 00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:05.039 get it, right. 1161 00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:06.880 Yeah. 1162 00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:10.760 Yeah, And that's that's one of the reasons why so 1163 00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:14.639 this whole, this whole book journeys I I. I actually 1164 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:17.320 was writing it to try to write my own ship. 1165 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:18.480 It wasn't to write a. 1166 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:21.320 Book experience and contextual. 1167 00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:21.760 Yeah. 1168 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.599 I was going to therapy and she was like, hey, 1169 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:28.599 you know, have you ever thought that maybe some people 1170 00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:31.400 could learn from this if you were to share this 1171 00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:33.000 and you could write a book or do a blog. 1172 00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:35.920 And I was like, oh, yeah, I'll write a book. 1173 00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:37.199 And then I just started to talk about it. 1174 00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:39.880 And so that's how that's how this journey started and 1175 00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:44.079 where I'm at now. But but yeah, I think I 1176 00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:48.519 think I have found that people who do this work, 1177 00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:53.000 they tend to be very selfless and they're helping all 1178 00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:55.519 of these other people that they don't even really know 1179 00:59:56.360 --> 01:00:01.639 their life of service. But there I found that they 1180 01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:07.039 can be kind of self selfish because they're keeping themselves 1181 01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:10.639 away from those who do love them, their family, and 1182 01:00:10.639 --> 01:00:12.480 and it's that's one of the things I talk about 1183 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:16.320 is you just be be mindful that you have to 1184 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:19.760 carve out time and have the conversations with the people 1185 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.960 that love you so that they can they can help 1186 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.320 you stay on your mission, right, because if you take breaks, 1187 01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:29.119 you take care of yourself, you're actually going to be 1188 01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:32.519 better at what you're setting out to do instead of 1189 01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:37.280 just burning out and making you know, or it can just. 1190 01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:39.800 You can just make some horrible mistakes. You just it 1191 01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:41.920 just can eat you up to. 1192 01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.639 Uh, yeah, before I want to get deeper into some 1193 01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:48.280 of the fallout, but before we move on to the 1194 01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:51.039 next part of your career, are any other big cases 1195 01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:54.119 from this time that kind of stand out that you'd 1196 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:54.880 like to talk about? 1197 01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:06.039 I mean, I mean there are tons, Uh. I think 1198 01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:08.880 the demands, the demand ones we did, we were pretty 1199 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:10.920 cool just because of what we did and the different 1200 01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:17.760 people that we saw. I'm trying to think of another 1201 01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:19.760 one that would be good to share. There there was 1202 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:22.960 a so there are I already talked about one where 1203 01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:23.960 there's a female offender. 1204 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:26.079 There aren't. There aren't. You don't always hear a lot 1205 01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.119 of female offenders. And there was one case that I 1206 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:30.480 had I just finished an up. 1207 01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:35.320 With I think we had we had arrested twenty two 1208 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:37.119 people or something like that, and I get a call 1209 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:45.159 from from our FBI officer and our agent and he says, hey, 1210 01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:49.920 Los so my nicknames Los short for Carlos. Hey can 1211 01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:54.440 you talk to there was another TFO Task Force officer. 1212 01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:57.280 Can you talk to him and help him out? We've 1213 01:01:57.320 --> 01:01:58.840 we've got something here. And I was like, and I 1214 01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.159 I really don't have the time, you know, I'm putting 1215 01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:03.519 all this stuff together. I got to get it for 1216 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.360 the prosecutor's office. So he's like he just hear him out. 1217 01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:09.000 So I get on the phone with him, same as Ryan. 1218 01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:12.960 I get on the phone with them, and he takes 1219 01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:16.599 me through that he has a CI that was who's 1220 01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:19.480 a sex offender who's talking to and they're trying to 1221 01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:24.480 recover a juvenile who's who's potentially being trafficked by this person. 1222 01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:27.559 Who's a female. And uh So. 1223 01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:32.599 As they're talking, the CI says, hey, man, this this lady. 1224 01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.519 She's like, she's like looking to she wants to have 1225 01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:39.519 sex with kids. She talks about hurting animals, like all 1226 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:44.880 this weird stuff. And I remember, as he's talking to me, 1227 01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:48.559 just thinking, One, I got all this stuff I got 1228 01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:50.599 to deal with, and I gotta turn these cases over. 1229 01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:54.320 But if I don't take this case, then what's going 1230 01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:57.840 to happen? And then if nobody does this, then if 1231 01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:01.159 something happens and she finds a kid, then it's my fault. 1232 01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:04.719 So so I need to do this. So I told 1233 01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:06.599 the guys like, yeah, I'll do it. So I get 1234 01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:09.199 we have we have a software program where I generated 1235 01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:11.039 a phone number for him to use to give and 1236 01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:13.159 then I was going to be the bad actor who 1237 01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:16.840 had access to to two little girls for this this 1238 01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:21.679 girl so within she hit me up pretty quick and 1239 01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:25.039 we start we start talking. We end up setting up 1240 01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:27.960 a meet and she wanted to have she wanted to 1241 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:30.800 have these kids drugged, these two little girls drugged, and 1242 01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:36.039 we're talking, you know, pre pbescent kids. 1243 01:03:36.039 --> 01:03:40.239 And who are set up? God in this case? 1244 01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:44.119 Yes, yes, so when And that's good to point out. 1245 01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:46.400 So when we're when we're doing these cases, we're not 1246 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:49.679 offering it. We're not using real kids there. Now, I 1247 01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:53.760 will say, when we've worked these ops and looking at 1248 01:03:53.800 --> 01:03:56.440 the evidence after the fact, we're not just arresting all 1249 01:03:56.480 --> 01:03:59.679 these people and then we're done. You're looking through digital evidence, 1250 01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:04.760 digital media looking for potential of is there a live victim? 1251 01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:06.280 Have they been hands on that's what we call it, 1252 01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:09.639 hands on with somebody? Uh And actually the first person 1253 01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:11.960 that we ever arrested doing this, it took two years 1254 01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:15.719 before the kids disclosed, but they disclosed what had happened. 1255 01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:18.599 So we we have had instances where we're removing these 1256 01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:21.679 kids from harm and getting them the services and resources 1257 01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:27.239 that they need. So but in this instance, but the 1258 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:30.239 person that was live is she was potentially trying to 1259 01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:31.920 traffic this other this other girl. 1260 01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:33.000 I believe she was sixteen. 1261 01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:38.519 And so the goal was we had identified who she was, 1262 01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:42.840 try to recover the trafficked girl, and then get her 1263 01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.679 on see if she's done anything with any other kids, 1264 01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:48.719 and then and bring her in for what she was 1265 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:49.440 trying to do with. 1266 01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:52.760 These these two young kids. So she ends up, she agreed, 1267 01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:53.719 She ends up showing up. 1268 01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:56.920 She brings some cash, not a ton of cash, to 1269 01:04:56.960 --> 01:04:58.920 pay for the acts, and then she brings all of 1270 01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:03.840 these sex toys like she she had dildo glass, dildo's speculum, 1271 01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:06.719 all these clamps that she could put on her body. 1272 01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:11.599 And then just went through the interview with her, and 1273 01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:15.719 she was she was a statist. So she was really 1274 01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:17.199 someone who enjoyed. 1275 01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:17.880 The I think the pain of it. 1276 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:21.559 And she she had she was someone who had been 1277 01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:24.880 abused growing up something that she had had a horrible life. 1278 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:28.199 But that doesn't I'm a firm believer that that does 1279 01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:33.480 not give you any a pass to be able. 1280 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:38.519 To do this, right. So so yeah, she she I 1281 01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:42.199 don't remember she did I think eight years eight years 1282 01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:46.440 in prison. She's still in prison, and she was early twenties. 1283 01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:48.719 Jesus that showed up. 1284 01:05:49.119 --> 01:05:52.480 Yeah. Well, one of the things, one of the other 1285 01:05:52.519 --> 01:05:55.559 things that jumped out at me from that conference as 1286 01:05:55.639 --> 01:05:59.679 far as the difficulty in prosecuting these cases was that, 1287 01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:03.360 you know, obviously, when a minor is abused by somebody 1288 01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:05.320 who's like a parent or someone who's in the circle 1289 01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.440 of trust, it creates a whole added dimension of difficulty 1290 01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:13.159 in getting the victim to disclose. But even when you 1291 01:06:13.239 --> 01:06:16.119 have a woman who is being trafficked by a pimp 1292 01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:20.400 who is either very violent or very manipulative or both, 1293 01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:25.639 that many times when law enforcement moves in and makes 1294 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:30.199 the rests that the victims don't see themselves as victims, 1295 01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:34.719 that they don't feel that they have been victimized. They 1296 01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:37.760 still have in their mind they think that they're in 1297 01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:42.679 love with the pimp. And for police officers, you know, 1298 01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.840 legally you have to have a victim in order to 1299 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:50.679 prosecute a crime. Was that something that you encountered during 1300 01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:51.599 your career. 1301 01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:53.760 So a couple things. 1302 01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:57.840 So, yes, I did encounter where you have people who 1303 01:06:57.920 --> 01:06:59.880 weren't aware that they were being trafficked. 1304 01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:01.719 You know, they did think they were doing this for 1305 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:04.880 whatever purpose, for love or for whatever. 1306 01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:11.400 When we built our cases, dealing with trafficking, which is 1307 01:07:11.880 --> 01:07:15.480 slightly different than what we were talking about earlier. We 1308 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:20.159 would build those cases so that we wanted a solid case, 1309 01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:25.760 so that if the person who was being trafficked or abused, 1310 01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.960 raped was not we didn't need them. We didn't need 1311 01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:33.760 their testimony. So we did extra work to make sure 1312 01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:36.199 we had the records. We had if they were at hotels, 1313 01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:39.480 we had all the receipts. We had the cameras doing surveillance, 1314 01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:42.199 so we can actually see what's going on if they 1315 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:48.039 choose to. If the trafficker, the pimp decides to talk 1316 01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.440 to you, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It really 1317 01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:53.719 depends on really their ego or if you know, they 1318 01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.960 have their make a wise decision or not. So trying 1319 01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:59.760 to build it in such a way where if the 1320 01:07:59.800 --> 01:08:03.800 person doesn't go that way, we don't really need them 1321 01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:06.679 to testify because you have all of these other things. 1322 01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:09.159 You have all of these the records of what happened, 1323 01:08:09.159 --> 01:08:11.239 and uh, do you have coercion? 1324 01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:11.840 Was there? 1325 01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:14.880 Did they force them? Did they defraud them? You know 1326 01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:18.520 who's where's the money going? You know who's keeping the money? 1327 01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:20.439 Do you have your do you have your own ID? 1328 01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:23.279 Who's getting the hotel rooms. And then as as you 1329 01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.920 build more cases, then pimps start to realize, okay, well 1330 01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:27.439 now I don't do that. You know, they learn, they 1331 01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:29.960 go back and forth, they get they get the public 1332 01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:32.520 disclosure and read the cases and try to see what 1333 01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:35.119 your tactics are, so you kind of do you have 1334 01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:38.039 to change things up a little bit. But but ultimately, 1335 01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:41.000 in order for it to work, you someone has to 1336 01:08:41.039 --> 01:08:43.640 show up. You have the exchange, and then you watch 1337 01:08:43.680 --> 01:08:46.319 this so they're still at risk. So it's just depending 1338 01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:49.119 on how you do it. And then sometimes people get 1339 01:08:49.159 --> 01:08:53.159 tired of being in that life or they maybe they 1340 01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:54.840 were they chose up, or they were they were with 1341 01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:58.239 a different trafficker, and they won't talk about their trafficker, 1342 01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.439 but they'll talk about their other one, and you can 1343 01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:02.680 build a case on that. So that that that happens 1344 01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:07.079 a lot. I have I have friends that have life 1345 01:09:07.119 --> 01:09:10.960 experience and you know, just hearing hearing their stories. Actually 1346 01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.439 one of them before she was my friend, I listened 1347 01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:17.039 to her speak. Her name is Rebecca Bender. She's amazing, 1348 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:21.039 and listening to her story and and and what she 1349 01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:24.199 went through changed how we we did things, how my 1350 01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:27.079 task force did things and at the end, I remember 1351 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:32.520 talking about I remember talking about, you know that's you know, 1352 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:34.800 pointing up at her at the stage when we were 1353 01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:37.439 watching her, that that's why we do this, you know, 1354 01:09:37.520 --> 01:09:40.000 because because of someone like that. You know, look at 1355 01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:43.760 look this is even though everything that she went through that, look, 1356 01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:44.960 she's a success. 1357 01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:46.000 You know, she's still here. 1358 01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:48.520 She's a fighter, and so what can we do to 1359 01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:51.279 try to keep other people from going through that? 1360 01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:53.640 So and then we changed how we did that. 1361 01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:56.640 We we made sure that we had it's called trauma 1362 01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:01.560 informed approach, where were truly where we're actually spending the 1363 01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:05.159 time making sure that they get resources and not I 1364 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:07.399 when we would do options, you'd set dates to try 1365 01:10:07.439 --> 01:10:10.560 to recover somebody, but still you have your your arrest 1366 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:13.760 team in a part portion of the house calling the dates. 1367 01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:17.399 Maybe the pimp, drop trafficker, drops person off. Person comes in, 1368 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.279 they get the buy, you get this, push a little button, 1369 01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:22.560 so okay, rest team come in, you go in. But 1370 01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:24.680 you still, even if you're doing it really low key, 1371 01:10:25.279 --> 01:10:26.039 you're still in. 1372 01:10:26.279 --> 01:10:30.119 You're still the police with guns out. It isn't really right. 1373 01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:32.800 It's it's very traumatic because when you see, you know, 1374 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:34.920 when you're a civilian and you see people with guns 1375 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:39.359 out that they're not really processing everything that you're saying. 1376 01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:43.840 Guaranteed they're not remembering everything. Uh. And so just kind 1377 01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:46.319 of changing how you you do different things. I know 1378 01:10:46.359 --> 01:10:49.279 there's a up in Canada. They have a way of 1379 01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.159 doing things where they actually have someone with life experience 1380 01:10:52.159 --> 01:10:54.720 who's in their task force and they'll set up the 1381 01:10:54.760 --> 01:10:56.600 dates and then they just go knock on the door, 1382 01:10:56.880 --> 01:10:57.800 explain who they are. 1383 01:10:58.319 --> 01:11:00.840 She goes in and talks. They make sure it's clear safe. 1384 01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:02.960 She goes in and talks to them, says, hey, here's 1385 01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.520 why we hear. She goes through her spiel because she's 1386 01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:10.800 she knows how to speak with the person, goes through 1387 01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:12.720 the spiell offer resources. This is why we're here. We're 1388 01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:14.399 not here to arrest you. Do you want to get 1389 01:11:14.439 --> 01:11:16.680 out of this life? Give me a call and then 1390 01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:19.039 they would leave and you know, if they could build 1391 01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:20.840 the case on the trafficker, and they said the majority 1392 01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:23.680 of the people that came back, they were very successful. 1393 01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:26.199 They were able to build I think goes over ninety percent. 1394 01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.079 They actually were able to convict, charge and convict the 1395 01:11:31.159 --> 01:11:33.720 traffickers from doing it a different way. 1396 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:35.520 And because when you when you. 1397 01:11:35.439 --> 01:11:37.760 Meet people, like when i'd meet kids that are being trafficked, 1398 01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:40.920 or you'd be adults that are being trafficked that were 1399 01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:43.600 in that life, they don't want to talk to you. 1400 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:46.239 You know, you're you're the cops and look at their 1401 01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:48.880 life experience before you know we're Did they have someone 1402 01:11:48.920 --> 01:11:50.600 with it was addict to them? Did they have someone 1403 01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:53.680 you know who just kind of looked at them or 1404 01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:56.520 treated them like they were nothing or trash And it 1405 01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:58.960 takes while, It takes a while to build that up. 1406 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:02.880 I used to have one case where those she was 1407 01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:06.000 fourteen years old, that was being trafficked. I remember the 1408 01:12:06.039 --> 01:12:07.600 first time I talked to her and I said, hey, 1409 01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:10.680 look I'm I am. Here's who I am. I know 1410 01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:12.680 you don't trust me. You're not gonna really trust me 1411 01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:16.119 until you know we meet again. I said, no offense. 1412 01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:19.159 I hope we don't meet again. I said, but I 1413 01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:21.680 when I'm doing this work, oftentimes I meet people again. 1414 01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:24.920 And then she was saying, so if I if I 1415 01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:27.880 run and I go to Oregon, are you gonna come 1416 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:30.199 get me? And I was like, yeah, I go. It 1417 01:12:30.199 --> 01:12:32.039 may not be me, but we're gonna come find you. 1418 01:12:32.359 --> 01:12:33.760 She goes, what I went to New York when I 1419 01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:35.920 went to California, and she was asking all these questions 1420 01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:40.399 and she ran. She ran a lot, so we got 1421 01:12:40.439 --> 01:12:43.359 she had three traffickers. Two were the main one, the 1422 01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:45.439 other one was just a brother trying to be cool 1423 01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:47.960 like his older brother. Also two went to prison. 1424 01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:50.640 She ran again. We got her in Oregon, we got 1425 01:12:50.680 --> 01:12:53.359 her in California, and then I think the last time 1426 01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:55.720 I saw her, I got her out of a hotel. 1427 01:12:56.359 --> 01:12:58.319 And it was always during the holidays. It was Christmas 1428 01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:01.840 Eve or New Year's Eve. We we we recover her. 1429 01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:04.880 And the last one, I think it was Christmas Eve 1430 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:07.840 and pull her out of this hotel and she's in 1431 01:13:07.880 --> 01:13:11.159 the back of the car and I just remember telling her. 1432 01:13:11.159 --> 01:13:13.239 I was like, hey, you know, I'm not your dad, 1433 01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:14.520 but you know, I just. 1434 01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:16.880 I just hate seeing you like this. And she's like 1435 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:19.760 I know. She goes, I don't have a dad, and 1436 01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:22.039 I she goes, I don't hate and I said, you 1437 01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:23.520 probably hate me, and it's like, I don't She goes, 1438 01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:25.000 I don't hate you, but she points to the f 1439 01:13:25.039 --> 01:13:26.680 b I guy. She goes, I hate that motherfucker. I 1440 01:13:26.720 --> 01:13:27.199 don't know why. 1441 01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:29.479 I don't know why she hated the guy. His name 1442 01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:32.680 was Kyle, was the nicest guy from Minnesota. He talks 1443 01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:37.000 like he talks like Owen Wilson, you know, Jeepers. 1444 01:13:37.279 --> 01:13:39.520 I mean, that was this guy and he's like but 1445 01:13:39.640 --> 01:13:42.439 she just hated him. She could not stand him me 1446 01:13:42.439 --> 01:13:44.920 and he was so nice. Well he's still alive, so 1447 01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:48.239 he's still he's still nice. But but I just remember that. 1448 01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:53.640 Conversation with her, and it was horrible. I mean, part 1449 01:13:53.680 --> 01:13:55.199 of what I missed about being in the work is 1450 01:13:55.199 --> 01:13:58.399 I had these undercover profiles, and I was friends with 1451 01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:00.600 her on Facebook. It's like a kind of see and 1452 01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:02.560 she didn't know it was me, so I could kind 1453 01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:04.640 of see when she'd post stuff that she was doing okay, 1454 01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:06.840 which was really cool to see. And then when I 1455 01:14:06.880 --> 01:14:08.920 retired or when I got out of it, you don't 1456 01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:10.760 have access to that anymore. So it's like, you don't 1457 01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:14.840 you don't know what's happening in some of these people's lives. 1458 01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:19.039 But hopefully, you know, in my mind, hopefully she's still 1459 01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:21.359 doing really well. 1460 01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:24.199 Before we move on, I mean, are there any other 1461 01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:27.520 ones you'd like to talk about that were particularly insightful 1462 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:30.880 as far as how law enforcement and prosecutors go after 1463 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:34.479 these cases or in how people are victimized, maybe there's 1464 01:14:34.520 --> 01:14:35.399 some lessons learned. 1465 01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:40.159 I'll say, you know, if you're if you're doing this 1466 01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:47.039 work and you you have a prosecutor that's really motivated, 1467 01:14:47.399 --> 01:14:49.159 you know, don't well one, don't be afraid to go 1468 01:14:49.319 --> 01:14:53.000 meet with your prosecutors. And because it is a team effort. 1469 01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:57.880 But not all prosecutors are the same. Some suck, but 1470 01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:00.439 you have some that are really good and really good 1471 01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.319 at what they're doing and working together to just asking 1472 01:15:04.359 --> 01:15:06.079 the questions, you know, what do you need? What do 1473 01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:08.359 you need for me to build a case? What are 1474 01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:11.239 you Because everyone does things differently, So if you can 1475 01:15:11.279 --> 01:15:13.840 get them the information that they need and jump through 1476 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:16.960 those extra hoops, it's totally worth it. Because what I mean, 1477 01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:19.720 what are you really doing this for. You're doing it 1478 01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:22.439 to protect vulnerable people. You're doing it to keep kids 1479 01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:25.600 from harm, get them out of a bad situation. So 1480 01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:28.199 I mean, that's that's the goal. 1481 01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:28.520 Right. 1482 01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:31.880 So if it means that you have to do an 1483 01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:34.479 extra report or go talk to another person, or do 1484 01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:36.600 something a certain way that you don't normally do it 1485 01:15:37.239 --> 01:15:38.399 within reason, then. 1486 01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:39.439 You do it. 1487 01:15:39.960 --> 01:15:42.800 You need to do it so I think I think 1488 01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:47.039 that's important, and just learning from that, learning from all 1489 01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:49.239 your experiences. When you first start to testify, you're not 1490 01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:51.039 gonna be as good as the next time you testify. 1491 01:15:51.479 --> 01:15:54.840 So just getting the feedback from from those cases, I 1492 01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:57.800 think is really important. I don't know if that's what 1493 01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:01.600 you what you asked, but that's what sticks out in 1494 01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:03.279 my mind with those cases. 1495 01:16:03.960 --> 01:16:05.800 The next thing I want to roll into was sort 1496 01:16:05.840 --> 01:16:09.520 of you leaving this task force. Did you decide that 1497 01:16:09.560 --> 01:16:11.359 you had had enough and you needed a break, or 1498 01:16:11.399 --> 01:16:14.720 did the police actually decide like, Okay, this guy did 1499 01:16:14.720 --> 01:16:17.199 his time and we need to cycle him off this job. 1500 01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:25.239 It was not quite that. What had happened was the 1501 01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:30.720 position opened back in the Governor's detail, and it was 1502 01:16:30.760 --> 01:16:33.640 when my principal at the time was also running for 1503 01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:38.720 president and he didn't win. But they had two teams 1504 01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:41.840 going and the person who they thought would take that 1505 01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:44.600 spot wasn't interested in staying there. 1506 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:45.920 He was only there temporarily. 1507 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:49.039 So they were trying to get people to go in 1508 01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:52.319 to manage the executive Protection Unit, and they really weren't 1509 01:16:52.359 --> 01:16:54.159 having No one was really interested in it. 1510 01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:55.319 I mean, it's a tough job. 1511 01:16:56.319 --> 01:17:00.600 So I got asked a couple of times, Hey, you 1512 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:02.399 should put in for this, and I was like, oh, okay, 1513 01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:05.119 well I'll do it if you give if you make 1514 01:17:05.159 --> 01:17:07.439 sure there's a mechtef in every district in the state patrol, 1515 01:17:07.439 --> 01:17:08.520 because there's eight districts. 1516 01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:11.359 I go, well, you give me this and I'll leave, 1517 01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:12.960 you know, and then we can go do this. I 1518 01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:13.479 was joking. 1519 01:17:14.079 --> 01:17:16.560 But then then I started to get calls from different 1520 01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.399 people saying, hey, just listen to me, you should do this, 1521 01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:21.000 and I was like, no, I've been there, done that. 1522 01:17:21.000 --> 01:17:23.520 That's not my not what I want to do. And 1523 01:17:23.560 --> 01:17:26.159 then one of my buddies called and said, hey, we're 1524 01:17:26.199 --> 01:17:30.079 on the street. Is you're just going to get put there, 1525 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:33.760 So because no one's interested, you have the experience, maybe 1526 01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:36.680 you should just go have the big men safe face. 1527 01:17:36.760 --> 01:17:39.560 That's a call I got. So I was like, okay, 1528 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:44.039 so I put in for it. And I'll say, if 1529 01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:48.720 that hadn't happened, I guaranteed I wouldn't have retired and. 1530 01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:51.640 I'd still be there work in those cases for sure. 1531 01:17:54.159 --> 01:17:58.640 And but I'm glad that that happened because one I 1532 01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.199 retired as after I did my short stint there, and 1533 01:18:01.239 --> 01:18:04.319 then I retired after twenty five years, because you can 1534 01:18:04.319 --> 01:18:06.920 go at twenty five years with the State Patrol. And 1535 01:18:07.840 --> 01:18:12.560 it also showed me that it showed me that I 1536 01:18:12.680 --> 01:18:15.720 was actually affected by the work by the by that 1537 01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:17.600 ugly is I like to call. 1538 01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:20.199 It, that it was affecting me, and I didn't realize 1539 01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:23.359 how it was had affected me, just decisions I had 1540 01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:27.840 made in my life and and I and I'd say, 1541 01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:29.760 you know, I started to realize it. Then it didn't 1542 01:18:29.800 --> 01:18:32.319 really hit me until I moved to San Diego. 1543 01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:36.119 Where I live now, and the work I had done 1544 01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:41.159 and I didn't have the same support structure, and I just, 1545 01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:44.359 you know, things would just trigger me on different things, 1546 01:18:44.439 --> 01:18:47.319 and I just my emotions started to flood back and 1547 01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:51.000 I didn't really know how to manage them. So just 1548 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:53.079 like i'd see something and you know, I get really 1549 01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:55.960 super emotional. So just so I thought, you know, I 1550 01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:58.800 should probably go talk to somebody. So and then that's 1551 01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:00.960 I started to talk to someone. And then I realized 1552 01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:07.520 what a toll that it took on me. And you 1553 01:19:07.560 --> 01:19:11.039 know how, and I thought I was doing things really well, 1554 01:19:11.079 --> 01:19:13.880 and I wasn't. I was just I was just putting 1555 01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:15.880 things into a box and putting it into a shelf, 1556 01:19:16.159 --> 01:19:19.720 you know, up in my brain, and that's not the 1557 01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:22.359 best way to manage things. I mean, everybody, when you 1558 01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:24.039 do this work, you have to you have to have 1559 01:19:24.079 --> 01:19:26.960 the ability to departmentalize certain things or you're just not 1560 01:19:27.039 --> 01:19:30.680 going to get anything done. But you also need to 1561 01:19:30.760 --> 01:19:32.680 make sure that you're mindful that you're taking care of 1562 01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:35.479 yourself or pretty soon you're going to run out of 1563 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:38.399 boxes and you're not you know, you're you're not going 1564 01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:41.880 to be able to function and at all with anything 1565 01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:42.319 that you do. 1566 01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:46.880 So so yeah, so that that's why, that's kind of 1567 01:19:46.880 --> 01:19:49.600 how I left. But I'm glad that happened that way 1568 01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:52.800 because now I'm still I'm still involved. I don't I 1569 01:19:52.840 --> 01:19:56.239 don't do the work, but I still help train and 1570 01:19:56.399 --> 01:20:00.199 still do the conference circuit. The job I do now now, 1571 01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:05.359 I still I do Title nine investigations sex assault type 1572 01:20:05.359 --> 01:20:07.880 stuff on the policy side for the school district. So 1573 01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:08.840 we're in San Diego. 1574 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:13.079 It's the second largest school district in California, and so 1575 01:20:13.119 --> 01:20:15.760 I do employee investigations. I also do some law enforcement 1576 01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:20.319 investigations because we have our own police department and just 1577 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:24.159 really focused on accountability compliance and then making sure that 1578 01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:26.920 kids are safe and they're able to go to school 1579 01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:30.119 and learn and not have to worry about someone creeping 1580 01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:32.880 on them or you know, assaulting them in some way. 1581 01:20:33.399 --> 01:20:37.880 So what were some of the things that you did 1582 01:20:37.960 --> 01:20:41.640 to start to like recover from working this kind of 1583 01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:45.640 job as it started to like affect your personal life. 1584 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:48.680 You said you mentioned that you're, you know, often being 1585 01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:51.760 triggered by different things that kind of bring you back 1586 01:20:51.760 --> 01:20:55.319 to that bad place. How did you start to deal 1587 01:20:55.359 --> 01:20:55.600 with that. 1588 01:20:57.000 --> 01:20:58.279 Let'll say, well, the first thing I did. 1589 01:20:58.359 --> 01:21:01.520 I mean, I still have some good friends, so I 1590 01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:07.159 talked to them, but really I I interviewed a number 1591 01:21:07.159 --> 01:21:10.960 of therapists and I just called them and I said, hey, 1592 01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:14.199 here's here's what I used to do. I see that 1593 01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:16.520 your background you deal with because down here there there's 1594 01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:19.000 a lot of military personnel, so there are a lot 1595 01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:23.880 of people who say that they they're kind of they 1596 01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:26.840 try to advertise towards that for the PTSD. So I 1597 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:29.000 contacted a number of people and I said, well, I 1598 01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:31.960 was law enforcement. I didn't really, I mean I grew 1599 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:35.319 up and my dad was in the service and family 1600 01:21:35.319 --> 01:21:38.199 members in the service, so I've kind of lived you know, 1601 01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:42.039 the cursorary, but I wasn't in it, so but I 1602 01:21:42.079 --> 01:21:45.079 still I think there's some similarities as far as the 1603 01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:47.840 stress that you see and the things that you see. 1604 01:21:48.399 --> 01:21:51.880 And then I finally found one that felt right and 1605 01:21:52.920 --> 01:21:55.319 started to go see her and that that helped me 1606 01:21:55.359 --> 01:21:59.319 a lot, and then just and then actually listening and 1607 01:21:59.359 --> 01:22:02.760 then actually saying oh, okay, Well maybe that's why I 1608 01:22:02.760 --> 01:22:05.119 did that, or because. 1609 01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:08.319 I think I had a really hard time with. 1610 01:22:10.199 --> 01:22:12.600 I used to get really mad at people when that 1611 01:22:12.640 --> 01:22:15.039 we're in law enforcement that said oh I can't do 1612 01:22:15.239 --> 01:22:17.680 I can never do what you do. And I was like, well, 1613 01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:20.119 you're fucking cop, why can't you do this? You're supposed 1614 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:20.680 to help people? 1615 01:22:21.359 --> 01:22:24.960 And I was angry. I still was pissed off about 1616 01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:26.880 that all the way till when I moved here in 1617 01:22:26.920 --> 01:22:30.199 twenty twenty three and one of the sessions she's like 1618 01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:32.000 as I shared that with her, and she's like, well, 1619 01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:37.279 well can you do this? Can you? 1620 01:22:38.079 --> 01:22:41.399 Are you on an NBA team? Can you build a rocket? 1621 01:22:41.439 --> 01:22:43.920 I was like, well no, She goes, well, everybody has 1622 01:22:43.960 --> 01:22:46.479 their different skill set. It goes you did it because 1623 01:22:47.039 --> 01:22:49.920 you could do it. That's why you did it. And 1624 01:22:50.359 --> 01:22:52.560 I'd never thought of it that way, and then so 1625 01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:55.840 I know now that that's not you know, it wasn't 1626 01:22:55.920 --> 01:23:00.560 necessarily fair meat for me to get angry, but it did. 1627 01:23:00.640 --> 01:23:02.920 It used to pissed me off. I was like, fuck, 1628 01:23:02.960 --> 01:23:04.880 ain't you guys doing this? Come on, let's all go 1629 01:23:04.960 --> 01:23:06.079 get these guys. 1630 01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:09.640 But so, I think I think that was that was 1631 01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:12.920 really big. And then really writing writing things out. 1632 01:23:13.279 --> 01:23:14.479 I'm a big Stephen. 1633 01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:18.800 King fan so as a kid, and I so I 1634 01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.199 got his book on writing. It's called On Writing, and 1635 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:23.399 I listened to that on audible a couple of times. 1636 01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:25.119 So he's like, you know, this is your job. If 1637 01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:27.000 this is your job, you should be doing this every 1638 01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:29.479 day for this amount of time, or it's not really 1639 01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:32.680 your job. So I just set one to two hours 1640 01:23:32.680 --> 01:23:35.720 a day to write to go through things. Once I 1641 01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:37.640 decided it was going to be a book. But that 1642 01:23:37.800 --> 01:23:39.359 was really good. 1643 01:23:41.119 --> 01:23:41.800 I couldn't It. 1644 01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:44.000 Wasn't always every day because sometimes when I got to 1645 01:23:44.039 --> 01:23:46.840 something that was heavy, I didn't want to have that 1646 01:23:46.880 --> 01:23:49.479 stuff in my head when I went to bed, so 1647 01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:51.600 i'd skip a day or maybe wait till I was off, 1648 01:23:51.600 --> 01:23:55.600 and then write during the day when before I went 1649 01:23:55.600 --> 01:23:58.039 to sleep. I think that that was helpful. So it 1650 01:23:58.039 --> 01:24:01.079 took a little longer to get things to go. But 1651 01:24:01.119 --> 01:24:02.119 I've never written a book. 1652 01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:05.720 I mean, it was but the whole journey's been been 1653 01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:07.399 pretty cool. And then I got to meet get to 1654 01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:10.880 meet a bunch of cool people so far, so that's fine. 1655 01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:13.520 And hopefully you can be able to help people. That's 1656 01:24:13.640 --> 01:24:14.439 that's a big goal. 1657 01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:18.920 So and when is the release date for the book? 1658 01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:22.840 So the launch date is March thirty first. I think 1659 01:24:22.840 --> 01:24:27.239 it'll be available before then, but we're trying to trying 1660 01:24:27.239 --> 01:24:29.119 to launch it on the thirty first, just to make 1661 01:24:29.119 --> 01:24:32.920 sure everything is is available on the website. 1662 01:24:33.479 --> 01:24:35.560 So March thirty first is the launch date. 1663 01:24:36.439 --> 01:24:39.840 So the ugly underneath. We'll put some links down the 1664 01:24:39.880 --> 01:24:42.279 description too, for folks to go and find the book. 1665 01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:47.560 I really appreciate you doing this because I feel like 1666 01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:53.359 there's a lot of misconceptions about this subject and I'm 1667 01:24:53.359 --> 01:24:55.760 glad to you know, hear a real expert on it. 1668 01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:59.680 And I did want to touch upon briefly. In the 1669 01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:02.680 last you know, five to ten years, I think there's 1670 01:25:02.720 --> 01:25:08.079 been sort of an explosion of interest is the wrong word, 1671 01:25:08.119 --> 01:25:10.720 but concern about human trafficking. 1672 01:25:11.159 --> 01:25:11.479 And. 1673 01:25:12.960 --> 01:25:15.760 There's good reason and I think that can lead to 1674 01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:19.720 a lot of good things, passing new laws, reforming the 1675 01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:22.640 existing system, and all kinds of things that you know 1676 01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:25.720 could be done to help. But that has also led 1677 01:25:25.800 --> 01:25:30.520 I feel like a lot of more misconceptions and a 1678 01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:33.520 lot of groups coming out there that you know, some 1679 01:25:33.600 --> 01:25:36.439 of them mean, well, I'm sure, but a lot a 1680 01:25:36.479 --> 01:25:39.520 lot of them are. I mean, the extreme end of 1681 01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:41.960 it was what was that that group Save the children 1682 01:25:42.079 --> 01:25:44.039 or something like that where the guy was actually a 1683 01:25:44.079 --> 01:25:45.079 predator himself. 1684 01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:51.520 I'm not sure which organization, but there there are. I Mean, 1685 01:25:52.640 --> 01:25:57.439 something I learned with work in these cases is people 1686 01:25:57.520 --> 01:26:01.520 tend to create to put themselves where they can create. 1687 01:26:01.319 --> 01:26:05.000 An opportunity to get what they want. So if you like. 1688 01:26:04.960 --> 01:26:07.359 Cars, you're going to go to car shows, right, If 1689 01:26:07.399 --> 01:26:10.199 you like sports, you're gonna go to sporting events. You're 1690 01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:12.319 sexually attracted to kids, you're going to do things where 1691 01:26:12.319 --> 01:26:14.760 they're kids around and you have the opportunity to offend. 1692 01:26:15.199 --> 01:26:17.720 So that's why you see people. I'm not saying everyone 1693 01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:21.199 who is bad. Who's who's a coach or a janitor 1694 01:26:21.359 --> 01:26:24.000 or a teacher or you know, people who are around kids, 1695 01:26:24.439 --> 01:26:27.720 but that's why you see those instances where there are 1696 01:26:27.720 --> 01:26:30.840 people that are in those professions that are doing those 1697 01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:33.720 things because they're they're around it. There, they have this, 1698 01:26:34.439 --> 01:26:35.680 it's it's available. 1699 01:26:37.560 --> 01:26:41.560 So but yeah, I'll say there I do. I agree 1700 01:26:41.560 --> 01:26:41.800 with you. 1701 01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:45.119 There are a lot of organizations that you know, I don't. 1702 01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:47.239 I don't know all of these people that come up. 1703 01:26:47.319 --> 01:26:50.199 You have people who who have the same background as 1704 01:26:50.279 --> 01:26:51.800 you know you or they were or say they do 1705 01:26:52.039 --> 01:26:54.560 in special ops. And I don't know invent any of them. 1706 01:26:54.560 --> 01:26:56.319 But people say that they've done all these things, and 1707 01:26:56.319 --> 01:26:56.880 I'm sure. 1708 01:26:56.680 --> 01:26:58.479 They're very good at what some of them are very 1709 01:26:58.479 --> 01:26:59.159 good at what they do. 1710 01:27:00.079 --> 01:27:02.399 But if you're not involved in training, you don't have 1711 01:27:02.439 --> 01:27:05.279 the training, and you don't know how to handle these cases, 1712 01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:09.479 you've got no business doing that type of work. And 1713 01:27:09.520 --> 01:27:11.800 then if you're just gonna go rip someone, go to 1714 01:27:11.840 --> 01:27:14.960 another country and rip someone out of a situation and say, yeah, 1715 01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:18.920 we save this kid, But what happens afterwards, what's going 1716 01:27:19.000 --> 01:27:20.680 to happen? Why are they why are they in that 1717 01:27:20.720 --> 01:27:23.560 situation in the first place? Are they doing that because 1718 01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:27.000 are they being trafficked? Or are they doing that because 1719 01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:29.359 they don't have any other options? So why don't we 1720 01:27:29.399 --> 01:27:33.479 focus on on. You know, do they have water, do 1721 01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:36.279 they have food? What other things? Or we can do 1722 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:38.199 there where they can get a job where that maybe 1723 01:27:38.199 --> 01:27:40.800 that isn't a choice anymore. You know, there's so many 1724 01:27:40.840 --> 01:27:42.920 other ways to tackle it. You can't arrest your way 1725 01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:45.680 out of this problem. You can't just go in and 1726 01:27:46.279 --> 01:27:48.439 grab people. And then you see organizations that they're doing 1727 01:27:48.439 --> 01:27:50.760 and they're doing a documentary of it, and you know, 1728 01:27:50.800 --> 01:27:52.600 how does that look? There is running with the boom mic? 1729 01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:56.199 I mean that's like, I mean that that stuff is 1730 01:27:56.239 --> 01:27:59.159 crazy to me. But and then you see influencers that 1731 01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:01.359 are out there and they call a pedophile. They're trying 1732 01:28:01.359 --> 01:28:02.479 to you know, and then they try to beat the 1733 01:28:02.479 --> 01:28:06.159 guy up and everyone thinks it's cool, but you're keeping 1734 01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:09.760 someone from being able to do the work because that 1735 01:28:10.039 --> 01:28:12.359 we had a case where there was someone who would 1736 01:28:12.760 --> 01:28:15.880 go meet with people that they were called pedophiles. I 1737 01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:17.560 don't know, because I didn't work any of those cases 1738 01:28:18.520 --> 01:28:20.279 because they would get in the way of us being 1739 01:28:20.279 --> 01:28:22.000 able to work the case. They tried to beat the 1740 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:25.279 guy up, But how's that person ever going to be 1741 01:28:25.279 --> 01:28:28.319 held accountable? Maybe they meet the guy or this person 1742 01:28:28.479 --> 01:28:31.119 or what other victims do they have are they are 1743 01:28:31.159 --> 01:28:33.680 they able to do a forensic dump and look at there? 1744 01:28:33.720 --> 01:28:35.279 Who else have they talked to? Are there any other 1745 01:28:35.359 --> 01:28:37.960 kids or you know, do they have kids that they're 1746 01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:40.720 offending upon? So those are things I think people don't 1747 01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:43.720 think about. But back back to the nonprofits you know 1748 01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:46.359 you have. I'm sure there are there are tons of 1749 01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:51.239 organizations that have a really good, you know, knee jerk reaction. 1750 01:28:51.319 --> 01:28:52.079 They want to do good. 1751 01:28:52.239 --> 01:28:54.119 You know, they may have a good heart and want 1752 01:28:54.119 --> 01:28:55.840 to do these good things, But there are so many 1753 01:28:55.960 --> 01:28:59.239 organizations that are already out there that are really good 1754 01:28:59.279 --> 01:29:01.840 at what they do and have the training and they 1755 01:29:01.920 --> 01:29:04.359 and they can get these other people, they can get, 1756 01:29:04.520 --> 01:29:05.520 they can do awareness. 1757 01:29:05.560 --> 01:29:07.880 So just support those groups that are already there. You 1758 01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:08.560 don't need it. 1759 01:29:08.640 --> 01:29:11.159 Seems like for a while I quit following it because 1760 01:29:11.159 --> 01:29:12.600 it gets old. But you see, like it seemed like 1761 01:29:12.640 --> 01:29:16.079 every month you'd have one or two new NGOs up 1762 01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:19.880 and they're saying, oh, I was a swat commander or 1763 01:29:19.960 --> 01:29:23.680 I was you know, this member of this special Operations 1764 01:29:23.720 --> 01:29:26.439 group and remember this, and I'm thinking, well, what what 1765 01:29:26.479 --> 01:29:29.239 did you do in Yeah, what did you do in trafficking? 1766 01:29:29.279 --> 01:29:30.439 Do you know how to work a case. You know, 1767 01:29:30.439 --> 01:29:33.079 how do you see? Are you trauma informed? Have you 1768 01:29:33.119 --> 01:29:36.279 worked with anyone who has lived lived life experience it's 1769 01:29:36.359 --> 01:29:37.199 actually lived it? 1770 01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:38.439 You know? How do you know? 1771 01:29:38.560 --> 01:29:41.039 Because I was in law enforcement, I had all the training. 1772 01:29:41.039 --> 01:29:43.479 I first went to the task force, I don't know 1773 01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:45.800 what the fuck I was doing. I mean, I knew 1774 01:29:45.800 --> 01:29:48.119 how to work dope. I applied that to that, but 1775 01:29:48.199 --> 01:29:50.760 I didn't I didn't know that. I hadn't listened to 1776 01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:53.239 a survivory yet. I hadn't I hadn't seen that. I 1777 01:29:53.279 --> 01:29:56.840 hadn't been confronted yet with those images and what these 1778 01:29:56.880 --> 01:29:59.760 people are doing. I mean, you learn those things, and 1779 01:29:59.800 --> 01:30:01.640 the best way to do it is you build your 1780 01:30:01.640 --> 01:30:05.039 team with people who have won the potential and then 1781 01:30:05.079 --> 01:30:07.479 the capacity to do it, and you get them the 1782 01:30:07.520 --> 01:30:13.239 resources so they're successful, that's mentally, and then also just 1783 01:30:13.279 --> 01:30:17.319 the training so that they can stay they can stay 1784 01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:19.880 sharp and they can do the work. And it's ever changing. 1785 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:22.239 I mean, you always have to be on top of things. 1786 01:30:22.640 --> 01:30:25.319 And that's why you mentioned earlier about the IODI when 1787 01:30:25.359 --> 01:30:26.199 you got to go to that. 1788 01:30:26.520 --> 01:30:26.920 I love. 1789 01:30:27.119 --> 01:30:29.880 I love going to those events because you do get 1790 01:30:29.920 --> 01:30:32.640 to unwind, but then you meet other like minded people 1791 01:30:33.239 --> 01:30:36.079 who are experts and they know what they're doing, and 1792 01:30:36.119 --> 01:30:38.520 you can sit down, you can. 1793 01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:40.319 You can have a drink with them, e pizza or whatever. 1794 01:30:40.720 --> 01:30:43.439 You do, have a conversation with them, ask how they're 1795 01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:45.720 doing it in their area, and they go, oh, that's 1796 01:30:45.760 --> 01:30:47.039 something I think we can do over here. 1797 01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:47.760 Here's what we do. 1798 01:30:47.920 --> 01:30:50.600 Have you experienced this, and then you just you just 1799 01:30:50.640 --> 01:30:53.640 come back, just rejuvenated and going back and you just 1800 01:30:53.720 --> 01:30:55.359 knock it out of the park when you get back. 1801 01:30:55.640 --> 01:30:58.920 I mean, that's what kept kept our people going. And 1802 01:30:58.920 --> 01:31:01.399 then supervisors. If you're a supervisor, you're listening to this 1803 01:31:01.479 --> 01:31:03.159 and you're you're one of these teams. You got to 1804 01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:05.479 get your people the resources they need. Your Your people 1805 01:31:05.479 --> 01:31:08.399 are your number one resource. If you don't, if you 1806 01:31:08.399 --> 01:31:12.279 don't take care of them, you're you're you're you're losing it. 1807 01:31:12.760 --> 01:31:14.960 I mean I stayed with the State Patrol because I 1808 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.479 felt I could have went to another department who got 1809 01:31:17.479 --> 01:31:19.720 paid twice as much, because we didn't get paid. We 1810 01:31:19.760 --> 01:31:22.439 didn't get paid a ton with State Patrol till till uh, 1811 01:31:22.640 --> 01:31:27.119 just towards the end of my career, and but I 1812 01:31:27.199 --> 01:31:30.479 felt like I felt valued. I felt valued by my 1813 01:31:30.520 --> 01:31:32.880 command staff and the people that were there. And then 1814 01:31:32.920 --> 01:31:35.439 I had a good team. It was like another family 1815 01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:37.920 and that was important, and then we were able to 1816 01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:41.880 do a lot of great good things. So I think 1817 01:31:41.880 --> 01:31:44.000 a lot of agencies get that wrong. I went off 1818 01:31:44.000 --> 01:31:45.600 on a tangent. I do that a lot. 1819 01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:47.000 No, No, it's all good. 1820 01:31:47.640 --> 01:31:47.720 No. 1821 01:31:47.840 --> 01:31:50.359 I I have my tangent too that you know, just 1822 01:31:50.399 --> 01:31:53.319 because you were in Navy seal doesn't mean that you 1823 01:31:53.439 --> 01:31:57.720 should be uh going into human trafficking interdiction in foreign 1824 01:31:57.800 --> 01:32:01.520 countries down in Central America, whatever the case may be. 1825 01:32:01.560 --> 01:32:04.119 And you know some of these guys are again I know, 1826 01:32:04.199 --> 01:32:07.199 some mean well yeah, others I think are more involved 1827 01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:11.560 in fundraising and grifting than they are in actually helping people. 1828 01:32:11.640 --> 01:32:11.840 Yeah. 1829 01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:16.000 And then the other thing is that the it gets 1830 01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:19.760 blended in with like Christian evangelical stuff and they start 1831 01:32:19.760 --> 01:32:24.119 talking about spiritual warfare and fighting demons and all kinds 1832 01:32:24.159 --> 01:32:24.800 of weird shit. 1833 01:32:25.359 --> 01:32:25.760 Yeah. 1834 01:32:26.119 --> 01:32:29.960 I So I grew up in the Bible belt and 1835 01:32:30.279 --> 01:32:32.600 I used to carry a Bible to school, and. 1836 01:32:33.960 --> 01:32:38.319 But I'm not what I and I don't anymore. I mean, 1837 01:32:38.319 --> 01:32:39.960 when I moved to Washington and I kind of got 1838 01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:42.279 out of that area, I realized you know, well, this 1839 01:32:42.319 --> 01:32:43.880 doesn't make sense or that doesn't make sense. 1840 01:32:44.319 --> 01:32:48.399 But my philosophy is do good, put good out there. 1841 01:32:48.720 --> 01:32:50.479 I mean, you can't tell me if I don't do 1842 01:32:50.600 --> 01:32:53.560 all of these good things in the world that if 1843 01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:55.039 they're right and I get up there and there's a 1844 01:32:55.079 --> 01:32:57.000 parlyage gate so that some guys not gonna let me in, 1845 01:32:57.720 --> 01:33:00.640 you know, because I because I I didn't Yes, I 1846 01:33:00.680 --> 01:33:03.359 did this or you know, or did that way. And 1847 01:33:03.359 --> 01:33:05.359 then there's so many different religions, you know, how do 1848 01:33:05.399 --> 01:33:07.399 you know which one's right. I mean, some people are 1849 01:33:07.399 --> 01:33:09.399 probably gonna hate me for saying that, but that's that's 1850 01:33:09.399 --> 01:33:13.399 my belief. You know, do do good, help people, protect 1851 01:33:13.399 --> 01:33:17.279 others less fortunate from you, and then you know, be present. 1852 01:33:17.399 --> 01:33:19.359 You know, we don't something we say, you don't get 1853 01:33:19.359 --> 01:33:21.760 these days back. You have to be present in the moment, 1854 01:33:21.840 --> 01:33:24.800 take care of the people that love you, tell people 1855 01:33:24.880 --> 01:33:27.560 that you care about them. Because there's so many you 1856 01:33:27.560 --> 01:33:30.079 know that life is short. You don't get you do 1857 01:33:30.159 --> 01:33:31.319 not get these days back. 1858 01:33:32.720 --> 01:33:37.039 But that's that's what I think. Do good. Yeah, there 1859 01:33:37.079 --> 01:33:38.800 are there are a lot of NGOs that are like that. 1860 01:33:38.840 --> 01:33:39.880 I'm very skeptical. 1861 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:43.720 When I'm I am connected with somebody like that because 1862 01:33:43.760 --> 01:33:47.600 I've I have prior experience in that world. And it 1863 01:33:47.640 --> 01:33:51.000 should be about what's the mission. And in this case, 1864 01:33:51.039 --> 01:33:54.199 when you're talking about kids and keeping people from being 1865 01:33:55.000 --> 01:33:59.800 raped for money or for anything of value, and then 1866 01:34:00.039 --> 01:34:04.520 putting that on the internet for people to share, the 1867 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:07.800 cost is too high. You know, that's what's more important 1868 01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:11.359 than that. That's the mission. It shouldn't be the man 1869 01:34:11.439 --> 01:34:13.720 over the mission or the person over the mission. It's 1870 01:34:13.760 --> 01:34:16.640 the mission. How do you focus and work together to 1871 01:34:16.720 --> 01:34:19.640 build a team to make sure that you can come 1872 01:34:19.640 --> 01:34:22.680 back that on multiple multiple areas, and it isn't just 1873 01:34:22.680 --> 01:34:25.560 one team. That's why we in law enforcement we have 1874 01:34:25.720 --> 01:34:30.279 multidisciplinary teams. Because my lane is I'm good at logistics. 1875 01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:34.279 I can do the undercover stuff some tach I mean, 1876 01:34:34.319 --> 01:34:36.359 I'm not. I was never a SWAT guy. I was 1877 01:34:36.439 --> 01:34:38.560 lucky I got to go to subgun school, which was awesome. 1878 01:34:39.399 --> 01:34:42.039 But you know that wasn't my lane. I didn't pretend 1879 01:34:42.079 --> 01:34:44.640 to be. But I had people on my team that 1880 01:34:44.720 --> 01:34:47.159 were SWAT or SWAT commanders and they knew what to 1881 01:34:47.199 --> 01:34:50.560 do digital forensics. You have them there and that's their lane, 1882 01:34:50.840 --> 01:34:52.720 and you pull that team together and you build them 1883 01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:55.680 so you can you can support the mission the best 1884 01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:57.920 that you can. And if you get you don't do 1885 01:34:58.039 --> 01:35:01.640 something quite right ex and you make the change so 1886 01:35:01.720 --> 01:35:04.600 it is right because what what are we doing it for? 1887 01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:08.159 To protect others? So you got to you gotta be 1888 01:35:08.159 --> 01:35:09.079 a little selfless, sir. 1889 01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:13.840 Are there any NGOs that you are involved with that 1890 01:35:13.880 --> 01:35:15.640 you'd feel comfortable shouting out? 1891 01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:15.920 Oh? 1892 01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:20.920 Yeah, the One Internet or the International Association of Human 1893 01:35:20.960 --> 01:35:24.840 Trafficking Investigators. Great group of guys. They have a conference 1894 01:35:24.880 --> 01:35:27.279 they do. The main conference they do is in Saint 1895 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:29.840 Pete's now it's a new venue this year in Florida. 1896 01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:36.319 They but they're they're doing stuff in Maryland, conferences in Maryland, Canada. 1897 01:35:36.319 --> 01:35:40.039 They're doing a bunch of stuff in Canada. And they're 1898 01:35:40.079 --> 01:35:45.640 great because they provide training to people who have the commission, 1899 01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:48.800 they're tasked to do this work. They're providing them the 1900 01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:51.520 training that they need. They're providing a venue where you 1901 01:35:51.520 --> 01:35:54.720 can go to a location and learn from others that 1902 01:35:54.760 --> 01:35:57.279 are doing this. And they bring subject matter experts together 1903 01:35:57.359 --> 01:36:00.159 and not just law enforcement. You have well prosepcut is 1904 01:36:00.159 --> 01:36:01.600 a part of lot of course, so you have prosecutors, 1905 01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:04.920 you have social workers. You have people with lived in experience, 1906 01:36:04.960 --> 01:36:09.159 so survivors of sex trafficking from all over and and 1907 01:36:09.239 --> 01:36:12.000 you get to to I've got tons of friends from that, 1908 01:36:12.319 --> 01:36:14.239 and you learn how to do that. So they're great. 1909 01:36:14.680 --> 01:36:18.479 They provide that. There's an organization called raven dot Us. 1910 01:36:19.279 --> 01:36:22.199 And the thing that's great about them is, uh, there 1911 01:36:22.199 --> 01:36:24.439 are subject matter experts in the space. Some of them 1912 01:36:24.439 --> 01:36:27.920 were retired IKAC commanders. You have people who are writing 1913 01:36:27.920 --> 01:36:30.439 the laws. If you're familiar with the laws they've had recently, 1914 01:36:30.520 --> 01:36:32.800 like the say fact that Take It Down Act, things 1915 01:36:32.800 --> 01:36:37.199 dealing with protecting children. The CEO of that group, she's 1916 01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:41.399 the one who was helped write those bills. And so 1917 01:36:41.439 --> 01:36:43.800 they're working on the policy side and getting funding for 1918 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:47.640 those that are doing the work and funding these IICAC organizations. 1919 01:36:47.960 --> 01:36:48.600 So they're great. 1920 01:36:49.159 --> 01:36:53.399 Raven dot Us work in the policy side. Rebecca Bender 1921 01:36:53.439 --> 01:36:56.399 has an organization that helps survivors. It's called Elevate Academy. 1922 01:36:56.840 --> 01:36:57.239 Awesome. 1923 01:36:57.840 --> 01:36:59.640 I know I'm going to miss them. There's there's tons, 1924 01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:03.079 there's in Seattle. There's a place called rest. They provide housing, 1925 01:37:03.479 --> 01:37:07.720 low barrier housing for for trafficking victims. 1926 01:37:07.880 --> 01:37:12.079 So they're great. I know I'm going to miss them. 1927 01:37:12.079 --> 01:37:14.319 There's so many of them, ever strong. They used to 1928 01:37:14.359 --> 01:37:16.399 be called stolen Youth. They're in the Washington area. 1929 01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:16.920 They're great. 1930 01:37:17.399 --> 01:37:21.199 They help raise money for funding training in schools in 1931 01:37:21.359 --> 01:37:25.239 San Diego. San Diego Youth Services they provide wrap around 1932 01:37:25.239 --> 01:37:29.479 services for families and potential traffic victims. They have bullying programs, 1933 01:37:29.520 --> 01:37:32.119 training for kids in school. So they're changing because how 1934 01:37:32.159 --> 01:37:35.479 do you prevent someone from becoming a sex buyer. You 1935 01:37:35.520 --> 01:37:37.720 got to focus on the people who are buying when 1936 01:37:37.760 --> 01:37:41.239 they're younger, right, So they have training on hey, this 1937 01:37:41.319 --> 01:37:43.359 is why this is wrong, this is how you build 1938 01:37:43.359 --> 01:37:44.479 a healthy relationship. 1939 01:37:44.920 --> 01:37:47.880 So that's something we partnered with in San Diego. 1940 01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:50.239 So that we have that available to our students when 1941 01:37:50.239 --> 01:37:54.479 we start to have these see these problems. We'd actually 1942 01:37:54.520 --> 01:37:57.920 just launched our human trafficking prevention program in at San 1943 01:37:58.000 --> 01:37:59.199 Diego Unified School District. 1944 01:37:59.239 --> 01:38:02.359 Pretty excited about that. Way we can track different things 1945 01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:05.840 and get get students resources and it's. 1946 01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:08.880 Like another job, but it's it's well worth it. So 1947 01:38:10.600 --> 01:38:12.800 I'm sure I missed a neck mech National Center Missing 1948 01:38:12.800 --> 01:38:15.399 Exploited Children, Missing Kids dot Org. That's the big one. 1949 01:38:15.760 --> 01:38:19.000 But they the clearinghouse for all the cyber tips. 1950 01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:24.239 So the book do out in March. The ugly underneath 1951 01:38:25.720 --> 01:38:27.960 is there? I mean, you told us a little bit 1952 01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:31.199 about where you're at today and you're still involved in investigations. 1953 01:38:32.159 --> 01:38:33.840 Is there anything else you want to talk about or 1954 01:38:33.880 --> 01:38:36.640 anything else you want to shout out before we wrap 1955 01:38:36.720 --> 01:38:37.119 up tonight. 1956 01:38:39.680 --> 01:38:41.640 I'd say the big thing is if you. 1957 01:38:43.399 --> 01:38:46.880 If you're in this line of work, you know, just 1958 01:38:47.039 --> 01:38:49.520 know that it affects you, and you need to make 1959 01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:52.199 sure you take breaks, take breaks so you can you 1960 01:38:52.199 --> 01:38:54.079 can care for yourself and you can care for your 1961 01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:56.039 family because if you don't, it's going to tear you down. 1962 01:38:56.760 --> 01:38:59.960 And and surround yourself with good people. 1963 01:39:00.680 --> 01:39:01.920 I'd say that's that's. 1964 01:39:01.840 --> 01:39:05.319 Number one for those that are in in the work. 1965 01:39:05.439 --> 01:39:08.640 If you are someone who is not, But there are 1966 01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:10.479 a lot of people who are interested in this, like 1967 01:39:10.479 --> 01:39:11.760 with all the true crime stuff. 1968 01:39:12.560 --> 01:39:14.640 Uh, if they read the book, they'll get it. They'll 1969 01:39:14.640 --> 01:39:15.880 get a look. 1970 01:39:15.640 --> 01:39:19.960 Into what that's about. And support those that are that 1971 01:39:20.000 --> 01:39:23.640 are out there protecting your kids and protecting your family 1972 01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:26.880 and and trying to get them to a better place 1973 01:39:27.600 --> 01:39:30.319 because they need it. I mean, it's you don't get 1974 01:39:30.479 --> 01:39:32.319 you don't get a lot of thank yous. Usually when 1975 01:39:32.359 --> 01:39:34.600 you're a cop, I mean you're in a restaurant, it's 1976 01:39:34.680 --> 01:39:36.760 usually like, oh, behavior, he's. 1977 01:39:36.640 --> 01:39:38.159 Gonna arrest you. You know. 1978 01:39:38.239 --> 01:39:40.119 It isn't like the firemen who get like, you know, 1979 01:39:40.159 --> 01:39:43.159 all the cool stuff. It's like people usually only reach 1980 01:39:43.199 --> 01:39:43.680 out to you. 1981 01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:44.319 When you're a cop. 1982 01:39:44.359 --> 01:39:46.199 If you know, they when they need you, they need 1983 01:39:46.239 --> 01:39:50.399 your help, or or they're trying to scare their kid, 1984 01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:52.279 you know, a pizza hut or something. 1985 01:39:52.319 --> 01:39:55.000 I did want to point that out to tonight that 1986 01:39:55.640 --> 01:39:59.319 you know, I I I understand there's a thought process 1987 01:39:59.359 --> 01:40:03.439 out there all cops are bastards and defund the police 1988 01:40:03.520 --> 01:40:06.199 and this sort of stuff. And I totally get that 1989 01:40:06.399 --> 01:40:09.520 there are corrupt cops out there. There are racist cops, 1990 01:40:09.560 --> 01:40:12.000 There are guys that should not have a gun and 1991 01:40:12.039 --> 01:40:16.159 a badge, for sure, But absolutely, on the other hand, 1992 01:40:16.399 --> 01:40:19.520 there are cops out there who are heroic and are 1993 01:40:19.560 --> 01:40:24.239 doing vitally important work to protect our citizens every day. 1994 01:40:24.840 --> 01:40:27.720 And like I mentioned earlier, I think back to that 1995 01:40:28.399 --> 01:40:30.720 cop I spoke to who is like looking out over 1996 01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:33.479 at the ocean, like it feels good not to have 1997 01:40:33.560 --> 01:40:36.199 to look at that crap today. Think about that guy 1998 01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:39.359 and what and what. Yeah, him and people like him 1999 01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:43.800 are doing every day to protect our citizens and as 2000 01:40:43.800 --> 01:40:47.800 you point out, the psychological toll that it takes on them. 2001 01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:50.560 And you know, you guys really you know, and I 2002 01:40:50.560 --> 01:40:53.239 think most police departments get it now that you know, 2003 01:40:53.279 --> 01:40:55.640 you guys need to be cycled on and off this job, 2004 01:40:56.520 --> 01:40:58.399 you know, to protect your own well being. 2005 01:40:58.880 --> 01:40:59.920 Yeah, and. 2006 01:41:01.399 --> 01:41:04.439 You know the part about you know, the good and 2007 01:41:04.840 --> 01:41:08.239 the bad they're I think what maybe a lot of people, 2008 01:41:08.399 --> 01:41:10.720 this is what what I hate when someone does something 2009 01:41:10.800 --> 01:41:11.359 really bad. 2010 01:41:11.399 --> 01:41:12.600 It used to make me so angry. 2011 01:41:12.600 --> 01:41:16.319 That's law enforcement because no matter what uniform they have on, 2012 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:20.039 it's still a police uniform and they represent everybody else 2013 01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:24.520 and they need That's why you need to have good 2014 01:41:24.560 --> 01:41:28.079 investigations when someone doesn't abide by their policy, so they're 2015 01:41:28.079 --> 01:41:30.640 held accountable. So they can't do that because they're making 2016 01:41:30.720 --> 01:41:34.840 it bad for everybody. And if they're not doing what 2017 01:41:34.920 --> 01:41:36.479 they should, then they shouldn't be a cop. 2018 01:41:37.359 --> 01:41:41.880 You know, it's get rid of them. Yeah, that's that's 2019 01:41:41.920 --> 01:41:46.119 my two cents on that. I think accountability is important. 2020 01:41:46.279 --> 01:41:48.439 When when we went in the academy, one of the 2021 01:41:48.439 --> 01:41:51.640 first things they said on day one was you live 2022 01:41:51.640 --> 01:41:56.000 in a glasshouse, and you're held to a higher standard. And 2023 01:41:56.079 --> 01:41:58.279 if if you're not okay with that, this isn't the 2024 01:41:58.399 --> 01:42:02.560 job for you. You are, Yeah, it's different. You're hell 2025 01:42:02.640 --> 01:42:04.359 to a higher standard because of what you do. The 2026 01:42:04.359 --> 01:42:09.199 community has it. They're trusting you with their safety and 2027 01:42:09.399 --> 01:42:13.920 if you do anything to mess that up, you're you're 2028 01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:15.800 not going to have the trust of your community. And 2029 01:42:15.800 --> 01:42:17.880 it's just and that's I mean, you see a lot 2030 01:42:17.920 --> 01:42:20.159 of that. We've been seeing a lot of that lately. 2031 01:42:20.359 --> 01:42:26.800 But yeah, and where can people find you online? Do 2032 01:42:26.800 --> 01:42:29.279 you have a website, a LinkedIn anywhere you'd like to 2033 01:42:29.279 --> 01:42:29.920 direct people? 2034 01:42:30.479 --> 01:42:34.199 Yeah, so the website right now is the ugly underneath 2035 01:42:34.359 --> 01:42:40.399 dot com on TikTok or Instagram, it's I should have 2036 01:42:40.439 --> 01:42:45.239 it memorized, but it's I believe it's c Underscore Rodriguez 2037 01:42:45.359 --> 01:42:50.119 one night, but Carlos Rodriguez, that's my name. But the 2038 01:42:50.159 --> 01:42:52.920 website has that the ugly underneath. 2039 01:42:52.920 --> 01:42:56.960 There's a link for it. So not everything's up yet 2040 01:42:57.039 --> 01:42:59.920 till the book's published. I think that the links will 2041 01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:02.479 to work on the website and. 2042 01:43:04.119 --> 01:43:07.800 We will shout it out when it comes out. And actually, 2043 01:43:07.880 --> 01:43:12.479 you reminded me this conversation reminded me something I want 2044 01:43:12.479 --> 01:43:16.920 to shout out real quick. A previous guest on the show, 2045 01:43:17.039 --> 01:43:21.079 General Remo Butler. Because of the interview he did on 2046 01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:23.479 the show, he went ahead and he wrote his memoir. 2047 01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:26.640 The book is out on Amazon now. It's called Lead 2048 01:43:26.640 --> 01:43:29.680 from the Front Lessons and Legacy from the First Black 2049 01:43:29.800 --> 01:43:33.680 US Army Special Forces General. Author again is Remo Butler, 2050 01:43:34.000 --> 01:43:36.439 previous guest on the show. I just want to shout 2051 01:43:36.439 --> 01:43:38.800 out to our listeners, let you know that his book 2052 01:43:38.840 --> 01:43:40.520 is out now and you should go check it out 2053 01:43:40.560 --> 01:43:46.239 on Amazon. So Carlos again, thank you for coming on 2054 01:43:46.279 --> 01:43:48.800 the show. Best of luck with the book. I thought 2055 01:43:48.800 --> 01:43:51.560 it was great. I read it on the on the 2056 01:43:51.600 --> 01:43:55.720 airplane over to Japan, went right right through it. I 2057 01:43:55.720 --> 01:43:58.239 mean it's it's a quick read, and it's really engaging 2058 01:43:58.279 --> 01:44:02.239 and really informative. So I hope that people whether they're 2059 01:44:02.239 --> 01:44:05.239 in law enforcement or they're civilians out there hoping to 2060 01:44:05.279 --> 01:44:08.640 gain a bit of better understanding about this topic. We'll 2061 01:44:08.640 --> 01:44:09.439 go and check it out. 2062 01:44:10.399 --> 01:44:10.720 All right. 2063 01:44:10.800 --> 01:44:12.319 Thank you, thank you so much for having me on. 2064 01:44:12.359 --> 01:44:13.560 It's great to meet you. 2065 01:44:14.199 --> 01:44:17.560 Yeah you too, Carlos, thank you, and for all of 2066 01:44:17.560 --> 01:44:20.239 our listeners out there. We will see you next week. 2067 01:44:20.319 --> 01:44:25.239 Thank you for joining us tonight. Hey guys, I want 2068 01:44:25.239 --> 01:44:27.520 to tell all of you today about a new newsletter 2069 01:44:27.520 --> 01:44:30.880 that we're launching that encompasses both the team House podcast, 2070 01:44:31.079 --> 01:44:35.119 the eyes On podcast, and the high Side news outlet, 2071 01:44:35.199 --> 01:44:39.520 which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going 2072 01:44:39.600 --> 01:44:41.399 to be once a week. It's going to come into 2073 01:44:41.399 --> 01:44:43.800 your inbox and you're going to get the most current 2074 01:44:43.880 --> 01:44:49.039 podcasts on eyes On, in the Teamhouse, and whatever's topical 2075 01:44:49.319 --> 01:44:52.000 or current on the high Side. So it's another way 2076 01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:54.119 for us to get the information out to you as 2077 01:44:54.239 --> 01:44:57.760 social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really 2078 01:44:57.760 --> 01:44:59.800 know what you're going to get. So this is a 2079 01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:02.239 one it's a week email. It'll slide into your inbox 2080 01:45:02.479 --> 01:45:04.399 and it will have you know the greatest hits of 2081 01:45:04.439 --> 01:45:05.640 that week. It's really good. 2082 01:45:06.760 --> 01:45:08.159 Checking it out. 2083 01:45:08.239 --> 01:45:12.560 The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com, 2084 01:45:12.560 --> 01:45:18.159 slash Join Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join. Uh. 2085 01:45:18.319 --> 01:45:20.439 You go there and you enter into your email list, 2086 01:45:20.640 --> 01:45:24.239 or you enter your email into the little thing on 2087 01:45:24.279 --> 01:45:26.720 the website and you're good to go and that'll be it. 2088 01:45:27.479 --> 01:45:30.199 So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll 2089 01:45:30.199 --> 01:45:33.920 consider signing up where the link. The link will also 2090 01:45:34.000 --> 01:45:36.279 be down the description if you're looking for it there, 2091 01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:41.680 and that's Teamhouse Podcast, dot kit k I, t Kilo India, 2092 01:45:41.880 --> 01:45:45.640 Tango dot Com, Backslash, Join