WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:30.839 Welcome back to the Pathway Chili. 2 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.479 I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley. 3 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:36.719 Let's dive right into this week's case. 4 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:43.479 June twenty third, nineteen ninety six, Boston, Massachusetts, the dismembered 5 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.560 upper body of twenty year old Karina Homer is found 6 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:49.719 inside a plastic trash bag in a dumpster. She was 7 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:52.960 strangled to death before her body was sliced directly in half, 8 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:55.880 and the lower portion of her body is never recovered. 9 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.439 Karina hills from Sweden and has spent the past three 10 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:01.920 months wor King is an o pair for a married couple, 11 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:04.959 and she was last seen partying at a nightclub nearby 12 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:09.280 nearly thirty six hours before she was found. Even though 13 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:12.959 the investigation looks at a number of potential suspects, there's 14 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:17.280 no evidence to implicate anyone and the crime remains unsolved. 15 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:21.760 After that, the path went Chile. So this week we're 16 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:24.079 going to be covering one of the most brutal unsolved 17 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:27.200 crimes of the modern era, the nineteen ninety six murder 18 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:30.760 of Karina Holmer. This case has often been compared to 19 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.599 the unsolved nineteen forty seven murder of Elizabeth Short aka 20 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.400 the black Dollia murder, since both crimes involve a young 21 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:41.000 female victim having their bodies literally sliced in half at 22 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:44.439 the waist. Karina Holmer hailed from a small village in 23 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.959 Sweden and traveled to the United States in order to 24 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.439 work as an old pair for a family who lived 25 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:52.760 in a suburb of Boston. One night, Krina decided to 26 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.319 go to a downtown nightclub with her friends, but she 27 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.159 became separated from them and would not be seen until 28 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.920 nearly thirty six hours later, when the upper half of 29 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.239 her dismembered body was discovered inside a plastic trash bag 30 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.439 in a dumpster. One of the most frustrating aspects of 31 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:11.360 the investigation is that there were contradictory eyewitness accounts about 32 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.439 the circumstances of how Karina left the nightclub, and it's 33 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:16.560 unclear if she was alone or in the company of 34 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:20.039 someone who may have been her killer. What further complicates 35 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.599 things is that Karina had written letters to her family 36 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.759 and friends in Sweden in which she expressed unhappiness with 37 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.800 her situation and seemed anxious to return home. In fact, 38 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.520 she told one friend that quote unquote, something terrible had happened, 39 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.400 but never revealed what she was referring to, and we 40 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.360 have no idea if this statement has any possible connection 41 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.400 to her death. Investigators would uncover a couple of potential suspects, 42 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:45.919 but no conclusive evidence to link any of them to 43 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.840 the crime. So on this series of episodes, we're going 44 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.199 to try and figure out why Karina became the victim 45 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:52.759 of such a sadistic murder. 46 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.199 So question for you when she's writing about something terrible 47 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:59.439 had happened, is that indirect reference of her job as 48 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:01.000 an all pair she. 49 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.560 Never actually said. She just said she was unhappy, but 50 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:06.319 she never specifically said anything about her job or the 51 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.800 family she's living with, and they never found any evidence 52 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.520 that she had anything going on in the home that 53 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:14.680 could have played a role in her death. So it's 54 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:16.879 just one of those cryptic statements where she didn't offer 55 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.000 any context, and now that she was murdered, everybody is 56 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:21.360 wondering what she meant. 57 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.080 And you have to think too, that she's downtown at 58 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:26.360 a nightclub with her friends, and so when she separated 59 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:28.599 from them, she becomes an ideal target. 60 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:28.840 Right. 61 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.120 You have somebody late at night, possibly intoxicated, but with 62 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.639 a lot of other people who might be intoxicated or 63 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.159 not paying attention or even not there, and so she 64 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.080 could be someone who was a victim of an opportunistic 65 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:44.400 person who's downtown in an area where people are drinking 66 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.319 and waiting for somebody to be isolated away from people 67 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:47.800 that they know. 68 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:50.560 Yeah, as we're going to talk about, this is one 69 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.840 of the more frustrating cases I've seen involving eyewitness sightings 70 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.080 because we're going to hear a bunch of different accounts 71 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.560 from people who might be the last person to see 72 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.000 Karina alive, but they provide such differing accounts of what 73 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.159 happened that you can't really be sure, Like, she was 74 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.520 seen in the company of a number of different individuals, 75 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.479 but you're just not sure if she left with them 76 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.240 or where she would have gone. So all we know 77 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:13.120 is she left the club at some point and then 78 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:15.960 thirty six hours later she was found murdered in a dumpster, 79 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:17.439 and we have no idea how. 80 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.920 So our story begins in Massachusetts in nineteen ninety six. 81 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.759 Our central figure is twenty year old Karina Homer, who 82 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.199 hails from Alarid, Sweden, a small farming village of less 83 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.199 than one hundred people, which is located over three hundred 84 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.319 and seventy five kilometers southwest of the capital city of Stockholm. 85 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.519 Karina grew up there with her parents and three sisters, 86 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.720 but had an adventurous spirit and hoped to own or 87 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:48.360 manage a restaurant someday. Karina received a major break when 88 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:51.240 she won ten thousand krona on a scratch ticket in 89 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.639 this Swedish state lottery, which was the equivalent of fifteen 90 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.959 hundred American dollars at that time, and decided that she 91 00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.879 would use the money to finance a trip to the 92 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:05.199 the United States. Karna's older sister, Johanna, had previous experience 93 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.480 working as a no pair, a job which involves traveling 94 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.399 to a foreign country to provide childcare and housework for 95 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.240 a host family in exchange for room and board and 96 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:18.120 a weekly stipend. Since Karina wanted to follow in her 97 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:22.480 sister's footsteps, she contacted no pair agency that specialized in 98 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.879 US placements and wound up receiving a job with an 99 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:30.519 American family. The couple in question were Frank Rapp, a 100 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.160 forty three year old commercial professor, and Susan Niictor, a 101 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:36.879 thirty seven year old artist, and they had a six 102 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:39.279 year old son and a daughter who was still a toddler. 103 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.720 The family lived in a condominium complex in a wealthy, 104 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:47.040 upscale suburb of Dover, located about fifteen miles southwest of 105 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:51.360 downtown Boston. Karina accepted the position and left for the 106 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:55.040 United States in March, but before she boarded her plane 107 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.720 at the airport, the last word she said to her 108 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.959 family were quote, I hope I doing the right thing. 109 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.759 While Karina would spend the week living in this bare 110 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.720 room in the family's condo, Frank Rapp gave her the 111 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.839 keys to his photography studio, which was located in the 112 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:14.480 four Point neighborhood of South Boston and doubled is a loft. 113 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:17.680 Karina spent her weekends there, and this gave her the 114 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:21.560 opportunity to explore the city and make new friends. She 115 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.439 became acquainted with some other Swedish O pairs who lived 116 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.000 in the area and would often invite them to her 117 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.319 loft and go out to the night club with them. 118 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.639 See that's something that's normal for them. It's somebody that 119 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.160 you know. She's acquainted with other people who have similar 120 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.959 backgrounds with her, She's able to connect with them on 121 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.000 a level that the other people she would see on 122 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.720 a daily basis, she wouldn't be able to write her heritage, 123 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.360 her culture, the fact that she's an all pair right 124 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.399 in this kind of unique, bizarre experience that you have 125 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:51.519 where you're kind of uprooted and repositioned into a family home, 126 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.759 you're given responsibilities to actually be basically a second mother 127 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.759 to children, right with people you don't know very well 128 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.600 to start. And so I love that she has this 129 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.879 acquaintance group of people who do live in the same 130 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:06.920 area that invite her to hang out and go to 131 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:07.920 the night clubs with them. 132 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.399 But it's that moment that she has separated from them. 133 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.600 I'm interested to hear how that night actually went and 134 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.079 what people say occurred, because I do, in my gut 135 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.319 feel like if she gets separated from these people who 136 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.079 are supposed to be, you know, part of her network, 137 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.560 she becomes this highly vulnerable person. 138 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:26.160 Could it have been someone she knows? 139 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:28.800 Absolutely right, especially when you look at the kind of 140 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:33.040 aggressive nature you're going to describe to me, But also 141 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.680 it almost goes even beyond like a anger lust killing 142 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:39.680 and it's more, like you said, one of the most 143 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.160 sadistic And I'm wondering does that screen more of a 144 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.399 stranger kind of serial killer person than it does just 145 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:49.399 maybe an acquaintance or someone who's interested in her sexually 146 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:52.560 and maybe got denied. So to me, I almost think 147 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:59.240 it's that extreme stranger situation that would result in such brutality. 148 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.920 To make a lot of parallels to the Black Dolly 149 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.480 murder from nineteen forty seven, and of course that one 150 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.199 is still unsolved all these years later, and it has 151 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.639 always baffled people because Elizabeth Short was sliced in half. 152 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:12.480 That was the only crime that took place in Los 153 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:15.399 Angeles at that time that matched that description. So you're 154 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.120 wondering to yourself, was she killed by someone she knew 155 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.600 or was just just some serial killer who was experimenting 156 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.120 and wanted to murder her in the most brutal, sadistic 157 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.199 manner possible. And that's the same thing with Karina Holmer. 158 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:29.639 Like Boston had never seen a crime like this where 159 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.720 a victim was literally sliced in half and had their 160 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.840 body their torso dumped in a dumpster. So it makes 161 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.519 you wonder, is this someone that has experienced with this 162 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.600 sort of thing, or it was it a personal crime 163 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:43.639 by someone who hated Karina so much that they felt 164 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.080 the need to slice her in. 165 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.440 Half and to bisect a body like wouldn't that be 166 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.879 a lot of labor? I guess it would depend on 167 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.480 the tools or the implements used. But it seems most 168 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.159 likely that if one was going to do something like that, 169 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.799 that they would do it at another location and then 170 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:06.039 dumped the body. Or is it possible that they bisected 171 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.720 her out in the public or somewhere close by. 172 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:11.679 I think it's most likely that she was killed at 173 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.159 another location and they just dumped the body there. But yeah, 174 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.200 as we're going to talk about, this was a very 175 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.679 careful crime where it looked like it was someone with 176 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.039 a lot of surgical skill who knew what they were doing, 177 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.320 and it makes you think that this is not the 178 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.080 first time they murdered someone. So On the evening of Friday, 179 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.759 June the twenty first, Karina and some of her Swedish 180 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:34.200 friends decided to celebrate the Summer Solstice, which is considered 181 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.519 to be one of the biggest holidays in Sweden, since 182 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.480 they experienced around eighteen hours of daylight. On that date, 183 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.399 Karina and her friends went to Zanzibar, a prominent nightclub 184 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.600 located on Bolston Place, in an area known as the Alley, 185 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.759 which was home to a number of nightclubs and partying spots. 186 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.279 Even though the legal drinking age in Massachusetts was twenty 187 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:55.679 one and Karina was just two month shy of her 188 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:58.519 twenty first birthday, she was able to gain access to 189 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:02.559 Zanzibar and purchased by using a fake ID. At some 190 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.879 point during the evening, Creane became separated from her friends 191 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:07.799 and left the club. And we have a number of 192 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.200 different accounts of what happened, which we'll get into momentarily, 193 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.039 but no one heard from Kreane over the weekend, and 194 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:16.919 there was no indication that she ever returned to her loft. 195 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.440 At around one thirty pm on Sunday, June the twenty third, 196 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.440 just under thirty six hours after Karina was last seen, 197 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:26.519 a homeless man started searching through a dumpster behind an 198 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:29.799 apartment building located in the Back Bay neighborhood, which was 199 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.639 a short distance away from the iconic baseball stadium Fenway Park. 200 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.039 The man was searching for cans, but accidentally ripped open 201 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.960 a black plastic trash bag in the dumpster and was 202 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.960 horrified to see what appeared to be a human arm inside. 203 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.039 When the man fetched the police and they arrived at 204 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.000 the scene, they discovered that the bag contained the dismembered 205 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.759 upper half of a female body, and the victim was 206 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:54.799 eventually identified as Karina Holmer. Her body had been sliced 207 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.240 directly in half at the waist, and this was done 208 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.120 in such a calculated fashion that the only bone the 209 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.559 perpetrator needed to cut through was Karina's spine, though a 210 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.720 small piece of her hip was shaved off by the 211 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:08.879 cutting tool. A medical disc believed to belong to a 212 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.360 circular saw was also found in the dumpster. 213 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.279 Dear lord, Okay, so are they thinking that this is 214 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.000 somebody with a medical background or somebody who has knowledge 215 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.120 of exactly how to dismember the body similar to what 216 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.279 they were talking about with the black delia? Is the 217 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:25.960 precision that's needed here? 218 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:27.639 Is that where people's minds went. 219 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.399 I think. So we're going to talk about a number 220 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:32.759 of potential suspects that pop up on the radar, but 221 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.360 none of these people have a medical background. So there 222 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:38.679 have never been any doctors who've popped up into focus 223 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:40.919 that looked like someone who would have the surgical skill 224 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.919 to do something like that. But because this was done 225 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:47.080 so meticulously. You have to think that they had previous experience, 226 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:49.600 because one of the odds that someone for the first 227 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:52.360 time who decides to slice a body in half would 228 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.440 be able to do it so thoroughly that they would 229 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.080 only cut one bone, the spine. 230 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.960 I think likely this has got to be their second 231 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.639 and her third murder. This can't be their first go round. 232 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.159 But somebody who was potentially like a hunter, who really 233 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.360 understood the body, and they could maybe look at a 234 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.360 medical textbook and get a pretty good idea of the 235 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.919 human body and then just translate that into what would 236 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.000 look like surgical precision. 237 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.840 Also a butcher, that's true as well, So anyone who 238 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.279 has experienced just cutting through things would have been capable 239 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:26.279 of doing something like this. 240 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:30.879 So the top half of Karina's body had been thoroughly 241 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.000 cleaned and her makeup was removed, and there were no 242 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:38.080 apparent bruises or defensive winds. Since Karina had would appear 243 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.799 to be rope or cord marks on her neck, the 244 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.840 medical examiner determined that her exact cause of death was strangulation, 245 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:49.080 and this took place before she was dismembered. However, the 246 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.399 lower half of Karina's body was never found, so it 247 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.840 was impossible to determine if she'd been sexually assaulted. Swabs 248 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.639 of Karna's mouth and fingernails failed to turn up any 249 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:03.240 friends evidence, though a partial fingerprint was found on the 250 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:06.159 trash bag. Even though this print was run through a 251 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.759 national database, it failed to turn up a match. The 252 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.559 dumpster was located just under two miles away from the 253 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:17.399 Zansavar nightclub, and the medical examiner estimated that Karina had 254 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.000 been alive for at least twenty four hours after she 255 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.240 was last seen there. This would have placed her approximate 256 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.000 time of death as taking place sometime during the early 257 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.360 morning hours of June twenty third, meaning that she may 258 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:32.399 have been held captive, though no one could pinpoint an 259 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:36.320 exact location for her murder. Karina's family was informed a 260 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.919 vote her death by the US State Department before her 261 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.519 body was transported back to Sweden. Her friends and family 262 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.440 decided to wear colorful clothing at her funeral to commemorate 263 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.879 her joyful personality, and they also read out a poem 264 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.639 she had once composed titled Life, in which she wrote, 265 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.720 quote the richest gift you ever got was life. Don't 266 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.679 throw that away or ever step on it, but hold 267 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:01.159 it high in your hands. 268 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:02.840 How cool is that? 269 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:04.879 I love that her friends said, you know, look, we're 270 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:08.399 going to honor her joyfulness and her love and the 271 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.000 creativity that she is. And so they're wearing this bright 272 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:14.799 color in the darkest you know moments, especially when they 273 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.200 start learning exactly what happened to her. I can't even 274 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.759 imagine the weight and the grief that surrounded them. This 275 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.600 print that they found is really interesting because it failed 276 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.399 to turn up a match. And I'm wondering this, like 277 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.320 how significant it truly is, because remember, the person who 278 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.679 found her was digging for cans, and had they not 279 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.080 ripped into that bag, would they have even found her? 280 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.559 And so how many other people were let's say, scrummling, 281 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:41.120 you know, going through that trash or pushing that bag 282 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.960 down to get more trash in the container. So, you know, 283 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.919 while it's huge when you find it, you also wonder 284 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.960 could it have also just been you know, superposely placed 285 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:52.639 there as well? 286 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:55.519 That is true. I guess it would depend how long 287 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:57.279 the bag had been in there, Like I'm sure they 288 00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.679 probably compared to the print of the man who found 289 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:01.840 her and made sure that it didn't belong to him, 290 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.360 but they don't know how long the bag was in there, 291 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.240 so if other people innocuously touched it, it's possible the 292 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.679 print it does not belong to the killer. And as 293 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.679 we're going to talk about, they have checked a bunch 294 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.159 of potential suspects over the years and it does not 295 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.440 sound like the print has matched any of them either, 296 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.720 But that doesn't necessarily rule them out, because we don't 297 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:21.200 know if the print belongs to the killer. 298 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.879 And can we just take a minute to acknowledge just 299 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:29.120 how horrifying a proposition it is that Karina was likely 300 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.360 alive for an entire day and held captive by the 301 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.679 person that did this grizzly act to her. I can't 302 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.240 even imagine what she went through and the terror, Like 303 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:46.639 how horrifying You've got this person who clearly is a psychopath. 304 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.120 I mean, to bisect a body like that and to 305 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.440 just dump it, and who knows what he did or 306 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.879 didn't do. I mean, it's likely a he, but it's 307 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.559 just horrifying, Like I shudder at the thought. 308 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.919 And like you said, when we're thinking about the brutality 309 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.679 of this, it has to be someone with experience, it 310 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.919 has to be someone who has done this before, who 311 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.399 has the confidence and the brazen approach to somebody to say, hey, 312 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.960 if they did keep her alive for let's say a 313 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.840 whole day and are abusing her and then decide to 314 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.919 dissect her, this has to be someone who this is 315 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.000 just kind of like another day, another walk in the 316 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:29.360 park for them, which is so disturbing that could it 317 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.240 have been someone she knew and existed beside, or is 318 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:35.000 it somebody again who's waiting and watching and says, there's 319 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:36.240 someone who looks vulnerable. 320 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.000 There are the perfect target for me. 321 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.240 At least, they did establish that she was straggled to 322 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.759 death before she was dismembered, so at the very least 323 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.159 she wasn't alive when they saw her in half. But 324 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.639 because we only found half of her body, we don't 325 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.639 know if she underwent any torture during the time period 326 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.480 she may have been held captive. So the Boston Police 327 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.080 Department wouldlaunch an investigation and interviewed over three hundred witnesses 328 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.360 in an attempt to figure out what happened Karina. Like 329 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.919 we mentioned earlier, there would be a number of contradictory 330 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.000 accounts from the eyewitnesses who last saw Karina at the 331 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.519 Zanzabar nightclub between two and three am on June and 332 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:14.480 twenty second. Since Karina became separated from her friends, none 333 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.720 of them could recall having seen or leave the club, 334 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:20.519 though multiple people reported that she had become heavily intoxicated, 335 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.079 and one of the club's bouncers supposedly found Karina passed 336 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.960 out in the bathroom shortly before closing and escorted her outside. 337 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.079 Witnesses recalled seeing a drunk Karina in an alleyway, where 338 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.680 she was complaining about being abandoned by her friends and 339 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:37.640 unable to get back into the club. She was also 340 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.200 seen in the alley talking, singing, and dancing with a 341 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.880 homeless man, and there were other reports of her walking 342 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.680 away from the club alone on Tremont Street. However, these 343 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.559 accounts seemed to be contradicted by a witness who happened 344 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.640 to be the boyfriend of one of the women Karina 345 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:54.160 went to the club with. He told police that he 346 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.599 had been planning to drive Karina home, but she wound 347 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.000 up climbing into a gray Mitsubishi being driven by two men. 348 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.000 When the witness tried to intervene, one of the men 349 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:05.240 made profane threats for him to get away from the 350 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:08.559 car before they drove away. As far as I can tell, 351 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.799 this witness's story was never corroborated, though while she was 352 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.759 inside the club, Kreina did apparently tell one of her 353 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:17.119 female friends that she was planning to go to an 354 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.240 after hours party with an older man. To add to 355 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.240 the confusion, witnesses also reported seeing Karina between three thirty 356 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:27.359 and four thirty am that morning inside a twenty four 357 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.640 hour convenience store on Massachusetts Avenue near Havilan Street, a 358 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:34.680 spot located about one block away from the dumpster where 359 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:39.359 her dismembered body was eventually found. Investigators decided to check 360 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.240 footage from Zanzibar's exterior security camera, and while the quality 361 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.920 of the footage was very grainy, they were able to 362 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.599 make out an image of a woman resembling Krena who 363 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.440 was standing outside the club and speaking to a burly 364 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:53.599 man who appeared to be in his forties and was 365 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.440 accompanied by a large white dog. 366 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:59.680 So in there you have multiple people that we really 367 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.000 don't know who they are that are being described the 368 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.440 homeless man, which I doubt that it's him because most 369 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.359 likely where would he have taken her for hours, you know, 370 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.079 and possibly twenty four hours. I don't see that being 371 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.039 the case. This idea that there's two men is really 372 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.759 interesting because you have such a you know, kind of brazen, 373 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.000 I don't know, violent attack on her. Is it possible 374 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.799 two people are doing that. It's possible. There's this older 375 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:29.799 man that she's going to go to an after party with, 376 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:31.960 and then there's that burly man with the dog. So 377 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:36.079 right there you have five people who individuals are saying 378 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:39.839 from the same location right that they're observing all of 379 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.920 these things with Karina so highly confusing because it's almost 380 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.119 like these people are seeing five completely different bar scenes 381 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.160 and only one of them or none of them, is 382 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.079 actually the person who came to take her. 383 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.000 What do you guys think The chances are that if 384 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.440 say that it was two men, maybe they didn't even 385 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.559 abduct her. Maybe she got into that vehicle willingly. If 386 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.400 it was indeed the Mitsubishi and they took her to 387 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.000 like a quote unquote after party, which may have just 388 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.720 been the two of them, things took a turn and 389 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:16.160 they ended up sexually assaulting her. Potentially that could explain 390 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.480 why one of them maybe had killed before or had 391 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:24.240 some kind of knowledge of the human body and was like, 392 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.240 oh crap, Like, we've sexually assaulted her DNA as a 393 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.160 thing in nineteen ninety six, and we don't want to 394 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.119 be tied to this crime. So let's bathe her and 395 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.839 bisect the body and then distribute them in different places, 396 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.240 and then there's a likelihood that a stronger likelihood that 397 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.599 we wouldn't be tied to this. 398 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.480 Forensically, that would make sense because they never did find 399 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.480 the lower half of her body, so they were unable 400 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.079 to determine if she was sexually assaulted. They never found 401 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:54.240