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Speaker 2: KRS the talk station.
Speaker 1: It's a thirty on a Wednesday here fifty about KARSD
Speaker 1: talk station. That means it is the time of week
Speaker 1: when we get the blessing of speaking with Judge and Anapolitana.
Speaker 1: Judge Napolatana, welcome back to the fifty five KOSE Morning Show,
Speaker 1: my dear friend. Always a distinct pleasure to have you
Speaker 1: on the program.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Brian.
Speaker 4: Fighting a little cold, so I apologize for my stuffy
Speaker 4: and naisily voice, but I'm happy to be with you
Speaker 4: as always, no matter what we're talking about, coming.
Speaker 1: In loud and clear, and of course an advocate for
Speaker 1: all things constitutional and our unalienable rights, including the freedom
Speaker 1: of speech. Yeah, I appreciate your comment column and as
Speaker 1: I perhaps slightly controversial given the viewpoints of the detained
Speaker 1: and booted person, which I can understand being against what
Speaker 1: her political viewpoints might be, but nonetheless, we all enjoy
Speaker 1: the right to free speech in this country, at least
Speaker 1: I thought we did, but maybe not.
Speaker 4: Well the column that you would talk about, which, by
Speaker 4: the way, I hope I don't speak out of school
Speaker 4: when I say received the blessing of missus Thomas gave
Speaker 4: me a smile from hearing ear.
Speaker 3: I had to let you know.
Speaker 1: She was reading over my shoulder, because you know, I
Speaker 1: launched your email and I was reading the column, and
Speaker 1: she happened along, and she's reading. She goes, well, he
Speaker 1: makes some really good points. It's like, yes, he always does.
Speaker 1: So she's listening right now.
Speaker 3: So you did.
Speaker 4: Good morning to you, and it was very nice for
Speaker 4: you to pass that along, and nicer still for her
Speaker 4: to say that. This is the story of two people
Speaker 4: with permanent resident aliens in the United States, one of
Speaker 4: whom was summarily deported in violation of a federal court
Speaker 4: order that she stay here until the hearing could be held.
Speaker 4: This is a kidney specialist, an MD doctor in a Providence,
Speaker 4: Rhode Island, on the faculty of the Brown University Medical School.
Speaker 4: The government claims had deported her because she attended the
Speaker 4: funeral of Hassan Nasralla, the now dead former head of Hesbala.
Speaker 4: On her return from Lebanon to Boston's Logan Airport, she
Speaker 4: was detained for thirty six hours during the course of
Speaker 4: what she called lawyers who rushed to a federal court
Speaker 4: who heard from her lawyers and from the DOJ and said, well,
Speaker 4: keep her here until we can have a hearing. You're
Speaker 4: going to have to demonstrate to me that she's a
Speaker 4: danger to the proper execution of American foreign policy. They
Speaker 4: disregarded the order and deported her to Paris and then
Speaker 4: to Lebanon, which is where she is now. She's from Lebanon.
Speaker 4: The other case is highly controversial here in New York
Speaker 4: because it took place here in New York. This is
Speaker 4: a Columbia University student, also a permanent legal resident, married
Speaker 4: to an American who's entering her ninth month of pregnancy
Speaker 4: with their child, yanked out of his Columbia dorm room
Speaker 4: and shipped to Louisiana. The charging documents there are no
Speaker 4: charging documents against the doctor because she's gone. The charging
Speaker 4: documents against the Columbia grad student do not allege a crime,
Speaker 4: Do not allege terrorist acts, do not allege inappropriate behavior,
Speaker 4: do not allege any facts, do not offer any evidence,
Speaker 4: but just the conclusion that Marco Rubio, I don't know
Speaker 4: how even knows this kid exists.
Speaker 3: Marco Rubio is of the opinion that his.
Speaker 4: Presence on the Columbia campus as a student is an
Speaker 4: impediment to the effective execution of American foreign policy. There
Speaker 4: isn't a judge in the country Article three or immigration
Speaker 4: court that would deport him on that basis of His
Speaker 4: lawyers have said, look, this is free speech.
Speaker 3: Number one. Number two. The Constitution says, if the.
Speaker 4: Government's going to try you for anything, it must be
Speaker 4: in the judicial district in which the government says the
Speaker 4: basis for the trial arose. That would be New York City.
Speaker 4: Why is the Louisiana Number three, He's entitled to due processing.
Speaker 4: You can't try him because of his speech, because the
Speaker 4: First Amendment protects everyone. So we're at a stalemate on
Speaker 4: this case right now. But I write about it because
Speaker 4: of the dangers confronting us if the government seeks to
Speaker 4: punish speech, deny due process, and defy court orders.
Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 1: Well, I found most unusual, as you wrote in your column,
Speaker 1: which thankfully I get early perilous times for personal liberty.
Speaker 1: The woman that was deported to Paris and then Lebanon,
Speaker 1: the federal agent seized her mobile phone after she was
Speaker 1: detained and searched through it. Now, based upon what probable
Speaker 1: cause of what did they have any rights?
Speaker 3: They did not have a search warrant for that phone.
Speaker 3: Right they will claim that she gave it to them voluntarily.
Speaker 4: We don't know that. There's been no hearing as to
Speaker 4: how as to how they got it. But that's a
Speaker 4: good point. Why did they stop her if the evidence
Speaker 4: were stopping her was acquired after the stop?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found that most unusual. And you know that's
Speaker 1: a threat to everyone. I know there's a lot of
Speaker 1: listeners screaming at the radio, well, these damned terrorists, and
Speaker 1: you know they support the murder of innocent civilians and
Speaker 1: October sixth and all that, And I'll agree with them
Speaker 1: all day long, don't you hear this person's viewpoints? But
Speaker 1: as you and I have talked about many times over
Speaker 1: the years, of Brandenburg decision from here in Ohio protects
Speaker 1: the speech of hardcore cold Nazis and clan members.
Speaker 3: You know it's agree right.
Speaker 4: Clan members calling for I'm going to use the word
Speaker 4: that the mister Brandenburg used.
Speaker 3: It's not an English word.
Speaker 4: Revengeance against African Americans and Jews. The Brandenburg case is
Speaker 4: profound A because it is a broad protection for free speech.
Speaker 4: B because it was unanimous. C Because Brandenburg himself was hateful,
Speaker 4: as were the things he said. So it stands for
Speaker 4: a number of things, not the least of which is.
Speaker 3: In matters of politics.
Speaker 4: You can say whatever you want in this country, and
Speaker 4: the First Amendment protects everyone.
Speaker 3: Who's here, not just American citizens.
Speaker 1: Well, and there is a difference between speech and violence
Speaker 1: and property crimes and taking over, you know, spaces that
Speaker 1: the university should should have open and free access to
Speaker 1: for all students. So there's there's acts which may be actionable,
Speaker 1: but the speech in and of itself is not something
Speaker 1: that they can act on by way of crime. And
Speaker 1: these are you point out they were lawfully in our country.
Speaker 1: They were not here illegally.
Speaker 3: Well, not only.
Speaker 4: Were they here lawfully, they were here permanently. They have
Speaker 4: families here, they have driver's licenses here. In the case
Speaker 4: of the doctor, she has I'm only here in a
Speaker 4: medical practice, as well as being on the Bround faculty.
Speaker 4: The doctor's case is particularly troublesome. She got here because
Speaker 4: of a shortage of nephrologists physicians who specialize in kidney ailments.
Speaker 4: The government welcomed her because of a unique skill that
Speaker 4: she brought to the providence Rhode Island community. And of
Speaker 4: course the other troubles some aspect is that there was
Speaker 4: an order signed by a judge. This is not one
Speaker 4: of those things where she's over the water and we
Speaker 4: don't know if the judge still has authority like this
Speaker 4: nonsense with the gang members sent to Al Salvador. She
Speaker 4: was at Logan Airport when a judge said, do not
Speaker 4: deport her until I can hold a hearing, and the
Speaker 4: blink of an eye, she was on a plane to Paris.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's very troubling because everyone is entitled to
Speaker 1: due process. I mean, there was no hearing on all
Speaker 1: of the evidence in this particular case.
Speaker 4: The only way the president can deport without due process
Speaker 4: is under the Enemy Alien Act when the human being
Speaker 4: he wants to deport is an agent of a country
Speaker 4: with which we're at war. We are not at war
Speaker 4: with anybody right now, So no one fits into that category. Therefore,
Speaker 4: everyone he wants to deport is entitled to due process.
Speaker 4: It's not a jury trial, but some sort of a
Speaker 4: hearing before a neutral arbiter. To the extent you can
Speaker 4: call immigration judges neutral, I mean they work for the prosecutor.
Speaker 4: Who's the prosecutor in an immigration court? The Secretary of
Speaker 4: Homeland Security? For home do immigration judges work the Secretary
Speaker 4: of Homeland Security. That's why these lawyers keep trying to
Speaker 4: get these cases before Article three judges or truly neutral. Nevertheless,
Speaker 4: you are entitled hearing at which the government must lay
Speaker 4: out its evidence against you, and you have an opportunity
Speaker 4: to challenge it.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: A parallel questions sort of came up earlier in the
Speaker 1: program with one of my regular commentators, and he also
Speaker 1: was a lawyer and journalist and historian. But is there
Speaker 1: something generally speaking that Congress could do by way of
Speaker 1: curtailing or curving US district duds authorities to issue blanket
Speaker 1: nationwide injunctions.
Speaker 4: The short answer, The short answer is yes. The longer
Speaker 4: answer is the Supreme Court crafts the federal rules of
Speaker 4: civil procedure for Congress to object modify or reject right now,
Speaker 4: those rules permit that. I mean, if federal district court
Speaker 4: judges did not have universal jurisdiction, the government would just
Speaker 4: defy them by going to another judicial district. That's why
Speaker 4: in constitutional matters, judges assert their authority everywhere. I'm going
Speaker 4: to enjoin the president from doing this wherever the president goes.
Speaker 4: In all other matters, the authority is confined to the
Speaker 4: judicial district. Well, why did they take this kid from
Speaker 4: Columbia out of the New York judicial district? Well, it's
Speaker 4: kind of obvious trying to confine someone. Would you rather
Speaker 4: argue before a judge of Manhattan or a judge in Lafayette, Louisiana.
Speaker 4: I'm going to hear it from my friends in New Orleans.
Speaker 4: I'm going to hear it for the way I mound,
Speaker 4: the way they say Lafayette.
Speaker 1: Well, forum shopping, you know, I did civil litigation, your honor,
Speaker 1: and quite often Cook County, which is where I did
Speaker 1: a lot of my practice when I lived in Chicago,
Speaker 1: was a great forum for PLAINTUS lawyers to shop in.
Speaker 1: Because the judges were so liberal and so pro plaintiff,
Speaker 1: you could usually score a really great jury verdict or
Speaker 1: get a bench verdict. There a lot easier than say,
Speaker 1: if you went to some conservative judge in Texas or wherever.
Speaker 4: Right right, But here you have an express clause in
Speaker 4: the Constitution saying in the judicial district wherein the events
Speaker 4: occurred in Madison. Put that in there, because George the
Speaker 4: third charged Commis with crimes legendly committed here and then
Speaker 4: ship them to London for trial. And of course they
Speaker 4: were all convicted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not shocking, well, very quickly. In terms of the
Speaker 1: defiance of the court order. The court did have the order,
Speaker 1: she was still here, was not yet deported. Any ramifications
Speaker 1: from that.
Speaker 3: Well, there must be. There must be whoever defied that
Speaker 3: order should be arrested.
Speaker 4: And that that's not pardonable because that's not an offense
Speaker 4: against the United States, and it's an offense against the court.
Speaker 4: So whoever that was, whether it was Christie known personally
Speaker 4: or somebody I'll lunt that that was her personally somewhat
Speaker 4: along the line, defied that court order. If judges don't
Speaker 4: punish for the violation of their court orders, people just
Speaker 4: start violating them and the judiciary will be meaningless.
Speaker 3: Other than as an arbiter in one of the bu.
Speaker 1: Accidents, and that is a greater concern. That's like calling
Speaker 1: for impeachments of judges just because they issue a bad decision.
Speaker 1: I know Robert came out against.
Speaker 4: Federal judge and I hate to admit this because it
Speaker 4: was orchestrated by my hero Thomas Jefferson to be impeached
Speaker 4: because of his rulings was just as Samuel Chase of
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. The impeachment took two years, during the
Speaker 4: course of which the Supreme Court was effectively hamstrung, and
Speaker 4: he was eventually acquitted. Jefferson was behind the whole thing.
Speaker 4: That's the last time they impeached a judge for his decisions. Now,
Speaker 4: judges have been impeached because they committed crimes.
Speaker 3: Judges have been impeached for bribery. That's legitimate, right. The
Speaker 3: basis for the impeachment of a.
Speaker 4: Judge is the same as for a president treason, bribery,
Speaker 4: other high crime and misdemeanor.
Speaker 1: Or in the case of the Supreme Court, you don't
Speaker 1: have to impeach, I mean, just pack the court so
Speaker 1: you fill it with judges that are of your political
Speaker 1: like mind. Judge Hennon Apolitano, God bless you, Sir, I
Speaker 1: appreciate your counting the program every week. I really thoroughly
Speaker 1: enjoy our conversations that my listeners do as well. I'll
Speaker 1: look forward to another one next time Wednesday, sir.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Brian, all the best and my love to
Speaker 4: miss what's her first name, Paulette, my love to pull
Speaker 4: that Thomas.
Speaker 1: Thank you sir, and get well. I wish you the
Speaker 1: best to help you all right, we'll talk next week
Speaker 1: coming up at eight forty four or fifty five KC
Speaker 1: Talk stations. Don't go away, I'd be right back