1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,319 Speaker 1: I want you to just for a second, close your eyes, 2 00:00:02,919 --> 00:00:05,960 picture yourself standing on a ridge. It's the middle of 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,119 summer in the levant, so the heat is already just 4 00:00:08,599 --> 00:00:12,160 it's oppressive, shimmering off all the limestone. But when you 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,199 look down into the valley below you, the heat gets 6 00:00:16,679 --> 00:00:17,280 more intense. 7 00:00:17,399 --> 00:00:19,359 Speaker 2: It's not just the sun you're feeling. 8 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: No, not at all. There are fires burning down there, yeah, 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,320 a lot of them, and the air is thick with smoke. 10 00:00:24,559 --> 00:00:26,679 But it doesn't smell like a campfire, you know, it 11 00:00:26,679 --> 00:00:31,480 doesn't smell like a hearth. It smells acrid, greasy. And 12 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:34,439 through all that haze you can hear the rhythmic beating 13 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,439 of drums, loud drums, so loud, frantic almost, and you 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,359 realize they're designed to drown something else out, something screaming. 15 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,439 Speaker 2: That is a scene that feels like it should be 16 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:48,280 from I don't know, Dante's Inferno or something. But you're 17 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,560 talking about a very real place, a real coordinate on 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:50,960 a map. 19 00:00:51,119 --> 00:00:53,359 Speaker 1: I am, This isn't some fantasy novel. This is a 20 00:00:53,399 --> 00:00:55,640 real place located just outside the walls of what was 21 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,759 supposed to be the holiest city on the entire planet, 22 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,479 and in the ancient world. This wasn't a tourist it 23 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,759 wasn't a park. It was the absolute epicenter of what 24 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:06,159 the prophets called unholy worship. 25 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,159 Speaker 2: And it's such a jarring juxtaposition, isn't it. You have 26 00:01:09,159 --> 00:01:11,000 a holy city on the hill and then right there 27 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,519 this pit of fire in the valley exactly. 28 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: This is the valley of Hinmham, right on the border 29 00:01:17,159 --> 00:01:21,120 of Jerusalem. And for centuries, the things that were done 30 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:24,680 in this physical valley were so horrible, so scarred into 31 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,959 the collective memory of the people, that the name of 32 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,640 this location became the actual Hebrew word for hell. 33 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,879 Speaker 2: It's really the ultimate example of how geography can become theology. 34 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:37,840 A real place becomes an idea. 35 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling threads. I'm your host, and today we 36 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,359 are not just recounting history. We are pulling on the darkest, 37 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,680 most tangled loose threads of folklore, religion, and the supernatural 38 00:01:51,719 --> 00:01:53,640 to see what unravels when you give them a really 39 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:54,239 hard yank. 40 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: And I'm here to help sort through that tangle. It's 41 00:01:56,879 --> 00:01:58,400 great to be here. This is a big one. 42 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: Today's mission is frank, it's a little terrifying. We're looking 43 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,159 at the concept of the devil. But before anyone listening 44 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,799 rolls their eyes and thinks we're about to do a 45 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:09,319 Sunday school lesson, let me just clarify what we're doing here. 46 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,080 We're looking at the manifestations of this idea. We're tracking 47 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,719 the devil through you know, physical geography, through mass sociological panics, 48 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:20,719 and through the very specific rituals of exorcism that are 49 00:02:20,719 --> 00:02:22,120 still happening today. 50 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:25,319 Speaker 2: Right wow. And we're using some really extensive investigations from 51 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,960 the History Channel regarding the unexplained as our sort of 52 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:31,280 roadmap for today. We're going to be bouncing from, like 53 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:33,800 you said, the Iron Age levant all the way to 54 00:02:33,879 --> 00:02:37,120 the Vatican and then to the pine barrens of New Jersey, 55 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:37,840 of all places. 56 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:41,159 Speaker 1: It's a global tour of high strangeness. I'm so excited 57 00:02:41,159 --> 00:02:43,680 for this one. But we really have to start back 58 00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:47,280 in that valley, the Valley of Hinhem, because I think 59 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:51,120 most people, myself included, kind of assume that Hell was 60 00:02:51,159 --> 00:02:55,319 always this abstract spiritual concept, you know, like a cloud 61 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:58,360 of fire in another dimension. But you're saying it started 62 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:59,800 as a literal piece of real estate. 63 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,159 Speaker 2: And to really get the concept of hell, you have 64 00:03:02,199 --> 00:03:04,879 to understand the topography of ancient Jerusalem. You have the 65 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,759 Temple mount that's the dwelling place of Yahweh, the god 66 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:10,719 of order, the god of life. That's inside the city walls. 67 00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:12,879 Speaker 1: Okay, inside is safe, right. 68 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: But just outside, to the south and west, this deep 69 00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:18,840 ravine cuts through the landscape the valley of Hinham. In 70 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,159 that ancient mindset, walls were everything. They were the demarcation 71 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,159 between cosmos and chaos. Inside is order, safety, outside is 72 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:28,680 the wild. 73 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:30,439 Speaker 1: And the Book of Sharemaia, which we looked at in 74 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,439 the source material, it just paints this horrific picture of 75 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:36,719 what was actually happening in that wild space. 76 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: It does, it's incredibly graphic. We're looking specifically at the 77 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,439 reign of kings like Manassa and Amah, and this is 78 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:45,919 before the big reforms of King Josiah. And the text 79 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:49,360 describes the Israelites, and this is the key part, not 80 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:52,639 foreign invaders, but the people of Jerusalem themselves building these 81 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:55,240 high places they call them tofit in the valley. 82 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,159 Speaker 1: And what did they do there? 83 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,599 Speaker 2: They burn their sons and daughters in the fire. 84 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,319 Speaker 1: The cult of Moloch, that's what we're talking about. 85 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: Here, Molach or Bahal, the names kind of shift depending 86 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:07,560 on the text in the era, but the ritual unfortunately 87 00:04:07,639 --> 00:04:10,560 remains pretty much the same. The source material describes it 88 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:13,080 as a big pit of fire, and the ritual involve 89 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:16,439 passing the child, specifically the firstborn male through that fire 90 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,600 as a sacrifice. 91 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,959 Speaker 1: I just I have to stop here because we see 92 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,120 this in movies, right, and it's always portrayed as these 93 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:27,920 villains in dark robes, cackling and being evil just for 94 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:31,759 the sake of being evil. But human beings, I mean, 95 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,000 generally speaking, we love our children. We're hardwired by evolution 96 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,360 to protect our offspring, of course, So how does this 97 00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:42,720 society get to a place where where throwing your baby 98 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:45,839 into a fire is considered a good or even a 99 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,720 necessary idea? What is the logic there? I can't wrap 100 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:49,360 my head around it. 101 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: You really hit the nail on the head with that 102 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,240 word necessary. To understand this, we have to strip away 103 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,720 all of our modern comforts. We live in a world 104 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,519 with supermarkets, irrigation, global supply chains, antibiotics. If it doesn't 105 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,399 rain here, we get wheat from somewhere else. 106 00:05:02,519 --> 00:05:04,879 Speaker 1: We're insulated from that kind of raw survival totally. 107 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: In the ancient Near East, you were living on a 108 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,639 knife sedge every single day. If the rains didn't come, 109 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,639 or if a swarm of locusts did, your entire village, 110 00:05:12,639 --> 00:05:15,879 your entire society died, not just you, everyone, your legacy, 111 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,480 your family, your history gone. 112 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: So the mindset wasn't let's be evil today. 113 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,319 Speaker 2: Not at all. The mindset was transactional. It was agricultural 114 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:26,920 anxiety ramped up to the absolute maximum level of terror. 115 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,519 They weren't being cruel, they thought they were being practical. 116 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: So it's like a grim economic calculation. 117 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 2: In the grimmest sense imaginable. Yes, they believed these deities, 118 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,279 these spirits and gods, controlled the rain and the harvest, 119 00:05:41,319 --> 00:05:43,879 and the greater you're ask the greater the payment that 120 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,399 was required. You could offer a goat or a dove 121 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,040 for a small favor, you know, for a safe journey 122 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:52,199 or something right, but for the survival of the entire community, 123 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,519 for the rain that will save everyone from starvation. The 124 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,920 gods demanded the most precious thing you possess. 125 00:05:58,639 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: The future of your bloodline, the. 126 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: Future of your bloodline, your firstborn son. 127 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: That is just it's chilling. It's fear masquerading as piety. 128 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,519 Speaker 2: And that's exactly why the biblical reaction, specifically from the 129 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,680 monotheistic prophets like Jeremiah, is so visceral, It's so full 130 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,319 of rage. In Jeremiah, God says something really fascinating. He says, 131 00:06:20,319 --> 00:06:22,240 and I'm paraphrasing, I never asked you to do this, 132 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,680 and never even entered my mind. It's this total horrified 133 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:29,360 rejection of that transactional relationship with the divine. 134 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,639 Speaker 1: But the memory of those fires it stuck. 135 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: Oh, it's stuck hard. Even after King Josiah came in 136 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,720 and destroyed the tofit and defiled all the shrines to 137 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:41,800 try and stop the sacrifices, the valley remained a place 138 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,000 of death. It became essentially the city's garbage. 139 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,879 Speaker 1: Dump, so still a place you'd want to avoid. 140 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Tradition says, the bodies of executed criminals, dead animals, 141 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,800 all the city's refuse was just dumped there, and to 142 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,199 deal with the smell and the disease, fires were kept 143 00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:58,319 burning constantly to consume all the filth. 144 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: Okay, I see where this is going. So if you're 145 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,879 a parent in Jerusalem in say the year thirty a d. 146 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,720 And you want to warn your kid about what happens 147 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,000 if they live a bad life. You just point to the. 148 00:07:08,959 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: Valley precisely, you point to the smoke constantly rising from 149 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,680 the trash heap, and you say, that is where you 150 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,360 will end up in Gahinam. 151 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:18,879 Speaker 1: And over time Gahinam. 152 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,519 Speaker 2: It gets hellenized, it gets Greekified into Gehenna. The physical 153 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,480 location becomes the metaphor for spiritual destruction. The lake of 154 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:29,720 Fire from the New Testament isn't some new radical invention. 155 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,079 It's a direct memory of the smoldering garbage dump in 156 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,000 the valley of Hinnam. 157 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: Wow. That just grounds the theology in such a gritty, 158 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,639 tangible way. It's not just a ghost story. It's history 159 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,439 repurposing collective trauma. But okay, this brings us to the 160 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,600 entity itself. We have the place hell. Now we need 161 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,639 the Landlord, the devil. 162 00:07:49,519 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: The figure with a thousand faces. 163 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding. The source material lists so many names, Beelzebub, Lucifer, 164 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:56,319 the Prince, Darkness, the evil One, and then you get 165 00:07:56,319 --> 00:07:59,399 the folksy ones like old Nick. Why is the branding 166 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,079 sewing con? I mean, why do we need twenty names 167 00:08:02,079 --> 00:08:02,879 for one bad guy? 168 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: That's a great question, And it's because the devil isn't 169 00:08:06,279 --> 00:08:09,680 just a character, He's a function, and that function is 170 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,319 seen as being ubiquitous. It's everywhere. If you believe there 171 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,959 is an active, malevolent force working against you, tripping you up, 172 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,519 tempting you, causing disease, you're going to encounter that force 173 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:21,959 in many different contexts. 174 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: So he gets different names based on the different jobs 175 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,160 he's doing at that moment. 176 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,199 Speaker 2: That's a perfect way to put it. The Elzebub, for example, 177 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,399 is often translated as lord of the flies. It's a 178 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,159 name associated with decay, filth, disease. It's the devil with 179 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:36,720 the trash heap. 180 00:08:36,759 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: We were just talking here, whereas Lucifer is totally different. 181 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,919 Speaker 2: Completely. Lucifer means light bearer or morning star. That name 182 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,639 refers to the fallen angel aspect, the story of the 183 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:50,000 most beautiful and powerful angel whose pride caused him to rebel. 184 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,399 That's the devil of tragedy and arrogance and satan itself. 185 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,159 And Hebrew just means the adversary or the accuser, like 186 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:59,799 a prosecutor in a heavenly court. 187 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting you mention the utility of fear. The source 188 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:07,360 makes a really strong point that this figure, this Satan 189 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:09,600 serves a very real social purpose. 190 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely it does. If you are a medieval cleric 191 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,879 or even a modern pastor. The devil is an incredibly 192 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,960 useful concept. The fear of eternal damnation, of going to 193 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,840 that Gehenno we talked about, is a powerful, powerful motivator 194 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,279 for compliance, keeps people online, It keeps people in line 195 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,320 with the established social and moral order. It's the ultimate 196 00:09:32,399 --> 00:09:35,120 stick to go along with the carat of heaven. If 197 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,399 you take away the consequence, the eternal consequence, you remove 198 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,799 a lot of the urgency from the morality for some people. 199 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: Right, But it's not just a Christian narrative, is it. 200 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,120 I was really glad the source widened the lens here 201 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,399 because this isn't just a Western obsession, not at all. 202 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: They brought up Buddhism and Islam, which I think is crucial. 203 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,360 In Buddhism, you have the figure of Mara, and Mara 204 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:57,480 is a fascinating parallel to the devil. He's often called 205 00:09:57,519 --> 00:09:58,720 the Lord of the senses. 206 00:09:59,000 --> 00:09:59,639 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 207 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,639 Speaker 2: Well, when the Buddha is sitting under the body tree 208 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,519 trying to achieve enlightenment, Mara doesn't just attack him with 209 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,759 monsters and demons, though he does that too. His primary 210 00:10:09,799 --> 00:10:12,720 attack is to assault the Buddha with desire, with doubt, 211 00:10:12,919 --> 00:10:15,120 with lust, with sensory overload. 212 00:10:15,399 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: So he's trying to keep you tethered to the physical 213 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,840 world to prevent spiritual transcendence. 214 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: Exactly. He represents the attachments that keep you trapped in 215 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,480 the cycle of suffering. And then in Islam you have 216 00:10:25,519 --> 00:10:28,639 the figure of Iblis. The story there is that when 217 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,519 God created Adam, he commanded all the angels to bow 218 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:33,519 down to this new. 219 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: Creation, and the abolie refused. 220 00:10:35,159 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: He refused, He said, I am made of smokeless fire, 221 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,200 and he is made of clay. Why should I bow 222 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,480 to him? It's that exact same sin of pride that 223 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,840 we see in the Miltonic Lucifer story. It's a refusal 224 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:49,159 to accept one's place in the cosmic order. 225 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: It really seems like humanity just across the board has 226 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:56,799 this deep psychological need to identify a boss for all 227 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:59,799 the bad things. We can't just accept that chaos is random, 228 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,759 that things happen. We need a manager to blame. 229 00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: Or to look at it in another way, an antagonist 230 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:07,879 to define ourselves against. You can't be a hero without 231 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,000 a villain. The devil in all these forms provides the 232 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:14,279 resistance that is seen as necessary for spiritual growth. You 233 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,600 have to overcome temptation to prove your virtue. 234 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the visuals, though, because if I asked 235 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:22,159 anyone listening right now to draw the devil, I bet 236 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,399 ninety nine percent of them would draw out the red tights, 237 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,639 the horns, the little goateee, the pitchfork. But that's a 238 00:11:27,639 --> 00:11:29,159 pretty recent invention, isn't it. 239 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,759 Speaker 2: Oh, it's very recent, relatively speeding. In the early biblical texts, 240 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,519 Satan doesn't have a physical description at all. He's a 241 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,000 spirit and adversary. The imagery we have now is a 242 00:11:40,039 --> 00:11:44,399 complete hodgepodge of later folklore and really art history. 243 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,759 Speaker 1: Okay, so where did the horns and the goat legs 244 00:11:46,759 --> 00:11:48,279 come from that seem so specific? 245 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,279 Speaker 2: Mostly from the Greek god Pan. When Christianity was spreading 246 00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:54,519 through Europe. It had to contend with all the old 247 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,600 pagan guides. Pan was a nature god, He had goat legs, horns, 248 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,600 he was very earthy, very sexuld. To the early Church, 249 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,519 this kind of nature worship was the absolute opposite of 250 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,799 the spirit of heaven. So they demonized the imagery. 251 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: So they just took the face of the old god 252 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,840 and pasted it onto their new devil. 253 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,879 Speaker 2: It's basically a hostile takeover of branding, and it's a 254 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,000 very effective marketing. If you want people to stop worshiping 255 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:20,240 the old gods, you tell them those gods are actually 256 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,240 demons in disguise. 257 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,879 Speaker 1: And the wings they're always bat wings, not angel wings. 258 00:12:23,919 --> 00:12:26,159 Speaker 2: Ray they're leathery and dark, and that's not an accident. 259 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:29,559 Birds belong to the day, to the sky, bats belong 260 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:33,279 to the night, to caves. It's all symbolic language designed 261 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,279 to trigger a sense of revulsion and otherness. Everything about 262 00:12:38,279 --> 00:12:40,960 the classic depiction is meant to be an inversion of 263 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:41,440 the Holy. 264 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so we've established the history, the names, the art. 265 00:12:44,759 --> 00:12:46,840 Now I want to get into the trenches because for 266 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:48,720 a lot of people around the world, this is not 267 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,879 abstract art history. It's a literal, physical battle that's being waged. 268 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,639 We need to talk about exorcism. 269 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,799 Speaker 2: And this is where a lot of modern skepticism hits 270 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,759 a hard wall against personal experience. 271 00:13:00,039 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: The source material opened this thread with that viral video 272 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:06,600 of Pope Francis in Saint Peter Square. He lays his 273 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,039 hands on a man in a wheelchair, then convulses and 274 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,080 slumps down, and the Internet just exploded screaming the Pope 275 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,799 dead and exorcism live on camera. 276 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,519 Speaker 2: And the Vatican, of course gave a very diplomatic no comment. Essentially, 277 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,000 they said it was just a prayer for the sick. 278 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,600 But the experts in our source material, including theologians and priests, 279 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,039 they point out that Pope Francis is actually very traditional 280 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,080 when it comes to this idea of spiritual warfare. 281 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: More so than other recent. 282 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: Popes, much more so, he mentions the devil by name 283 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,799 far more often than his immediate predecessors Benedict and John Pauli. 284 00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:44,559 He views Satan as a real, active personal entity, not 285 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,200 just a metaphor for bad behavior or societal ills. 286 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:51,799 Speaker 1: It feels so weirdly anachronistic, doesn't it. I mean, we 287 00:13:51,919 --> 00:13:54,960 have iPhones and mars rovers and gene editing, but the 288 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,720 Catholic Church still have a dedicated core of priests whose 289 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:00,720 official job is to yell demons. 290 00:14:00,919 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: It does feel medieval, but the practice isn't just surviving, 291 00:14:04,279 --> 00:14:08,639 it's actually growing. The demand for exorcists is reportedly higher 292 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:10,960 now than it has been in decades. And what I 293 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:13,279 found really compelling in our research was the procedure. 294 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: It is not like the movies, not just a priest 295 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:17,559 kicking down the door and splashing holy water everywhere. Not 296 00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:18,039 at all. 297 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: It's a highly bureaucratic, almost medical process. And this is 298 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:25,399 the part that usually surprises people. Before an official exorcist 299 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,080 will even agree to see you, you generally have to 300 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,600 be cleared by a medical doctor and a psychiatrist. 301 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:33,519 Speaker 1: Wait, really a psychiatrist. Yes. 302 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:36,639 Speaker 2: They call it the dual track approach. The church is 303 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,080 frankly terrified of the pr disaster of performing an exorcism 304 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,320 on someone who is actually suffering from schizophrenia or epilepsy 305 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:48,200 or dissociative identity disorder. They want to rule out every 306 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:51,519 possible natural explanation before they even consider the supernatural. 307 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: So the psychiatrists and the priest are basically coworkers on 308 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:55,799 a case. 309 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,679 Speaker 2: In a sense. Yes, they are looking for the gap. 310 00:14:57,759 --> 00:15:00,279 They're looking for the symptoms that medicine and psycholog you 311 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:00,879 can't explain. 312 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,639 Speaker 1: And what are those symptoms? What separates a tragic mental 313 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,639 health crisis from something else? In their view? 314 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,879 Speaker 2: The ritual Romanum that's the official Roman ritual for exorcism, 315 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,440 lists very specific signs. One is what they call hidden 316 00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:18,440 knowledge or clairvoyance, meaning one meaning the person knows things 317 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,600 they couldn't possibly know, details about the priest's life, secret 318 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:25,399 sins of people in the room speaking in languages the 319 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,080 person has never studied or been. 320 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: Exposed to, like ancient languages Aramaic or Latin exactly. 321 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: Another sign is a profound, often violent, aversion to the sacred. 322 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,159 A person who is otherwise non religious might suddenly recoil 323 00:15:39,279 --> 00:15:41,480 in agony at the sight of a crucifix or the 324 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:44,320 touch of holy water. But the one that is most 325 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,320 often cited and is frankly the most disturbing, is the 326 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,080 anomalous physical strength. 327 00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: The source mentioned that anecdote about a one hundred and 328 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:53,000 ten pound woman. 329 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:54,559 Speaker 2: Right, And this is a story you hear over and 330 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,879 over from exorcists, a small, frail woman who during an 331 00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:02,159 episode was able to physically throw so three large strong 332 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,519 men across the room. Now we know about hysterical strength. 333 00:16:05,679 --> 00:16:08,120 You hear stories of mothers lifting cars off their children. 334 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: Adrenaline. 335 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: It's a massive burst of adrenaline, but that's usually a 336 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,559 single brief action. This is described as sustained, directed force 337 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,720 that seems to defy the actual muscle mass of the individual. 338 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,639 Speaker 1: Okay, we have to address the floating elephant in the 339 00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:22,559 room levitation. 340 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: Test chuckles, the levitation. Yes, this is where the host 341 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:29,720 in the documentary was understandably very skeptical, and I don't 342 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,519 blame him. Gravity is a law and not a friendly suggestion. 343 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: But the exorcist they interviewed, Father Vincent Thomas, I believe 344 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,159 he was pretty candid about it. He said he personally 345 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,559 hadn't seen a full on head spinning, floating to the 346 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:46,000 ceiling levitation, right, but that his colleagues have and he 347 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,559 mentioned them seeing it with what he called salt of 348 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,279 the earth witnesses, normal credible people. 349 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: That's the exact phrase he used. And he said something like, 350 00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:57,320 I believe in gravity, but I also believe dark forces 351 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,799 can violate the laws of nature. At right, there is 352 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,319 the fundamental clash of worldviews. If you believe in a 353 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,680 spiritual realm that is superior to and can influence the 354 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,160 physical realm, then the suspension of physical laws is at 355 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:13,079 least theoretically possible. 356 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,839 Speaker 1: But if you're a materialist, it's impossible. By definition. There's 357 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:16,440 no room for me. 358 00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 2: There's no real middle ground on that one. But you 359 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,960 know what struck me the most. It wasn't the supernatural 360 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,880 special effects. It was the psychology of who supposedly gets 361 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,079 possessed me too. 362 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:27,799 Speaker 1: I was assumed there must be people who are dabbling 363 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:32,480 in dark stuff, using Ouiji boards, joining cults, whatever. But 364 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:36,400 the expert in the source that it's often psychologically balanced people. 365 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,279 They mentioned lawyers, military personnel, teachers. 366 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 2: That is the truly frightening part, isn't it. It suggests 367 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:46,440 that anyone is potentially vulnerable. But there is a crucial caveat. 368 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,279 They mentioned the entry point, the wound. Yes, the theory 369 00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:53,039 that exorcists work with is that demons don't just jump 370 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:55,480 into random people who are walking down the street. They 371 00:17:55,519 --> 00:18:00,960 attach themselves to trauma, to deep, unresolved spiritual wounds, unforgiveness, 372 00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:04,680 profound anger, childhood abuse, a major betrayal. 373 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,559 Speaker 1: So these things create like a crack in your spiritual defenses. 374 00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:10,559 Speaker 2: That's the idea. They create these spiritual wounds that fester, 375 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:14,759 and the demon or the negative entity feeds on that negativity. 376 00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:17,599 It draws strength from the anger, the bitterness, the despair. 377 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: So the exorcism is into a priest yelling the power 378 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,880 of Christ compels you. It's actually a form of therapy. 379 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,519 Speaker 2: It's deep spiritual therapy. The most effective exorcists say, you 380 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:28,559 can't just cast out the darkness. You have to heal 381 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,279 the wound that let the darkness in. You have to 382 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,240 lead the person to a place of forgiveness, of healing. Otherwise, 383 00:18:35,279 --> 00:18:37,119 even if you get the demon out, the door is 384 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,400 still wide open for it or another one to come 385 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:39,920 right back in. 386 00:18:40,079 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: That is That's a really profound point. Yeah, because whether 387 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,000 you believe in actual demons or not, the metaphor holds 388 00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:50,599 up perfectly. You can't cure a self destructive behavior without 389 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,720 addressing the underlying trauma that causes it. 390 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: Precisely, the ritual works in a psychological sense because it 391 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,880 forces the person to confront and heal the darkest spots 392 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,400 of their own history and their own soul. 393 00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:04,279 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, let's pivot. Now. This is a big shift. 394 00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:06,319 We've looked at the devil in the valley, in our 395 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,559 theology and in the human body. Now I want to 396 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:10,880 look at the devil in the landscape of America itself. 397 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,920 We're moving a thread four geological mysteries, specifically a place 398 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,599 that actually bears his name, Devil's. 399 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: Tower, Wyoming, a truly truly alien landscape If you've. 400 00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: Ever seen the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, 401 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,160 you know this silhouette instantly. It's that massive, flat topped, 402 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,880 stump like mountain with the deep vertical grooves running down 403 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:33,359 its sides. 404 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: It rises almost nine hundred feet straight up out of 405 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,799 the rolling sedimentary planes. It is a complete geological non sequitor. 406 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,720 It makes no sense being there. It looks like it 407 00:19:42,759 --> 00:19:43,640 was either dropped from. 408 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: The sky or pushed up from Hell. 409 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,519 Speaker 2: That's the implication of the name, isn't it Geologically It's 410 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:51,160 made of something called phonolite porphyry, which is a type 411 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,440 of volcanic rock. But there isn't a volcano anywhere nearby. 412 00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:58,000 There's no other volcanic activity in the region. Geologists are 413 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,799 still debating exactly how it formed. 414 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: It's a genuine mystery. 415 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: It's a genuine mystery. Was it a magma plug from 416 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,440 an ancient, long eroded volcano. Was it a different kind 417 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,119 of geological intrusion. There's no final consensus. It's a miracle 418 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:11,640 of nature. 419 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:15,559 Speaker 1: And as we've seen, wherever science leaves a gap, folklore 420 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,960 rushes into poor the cement. But the name Devil's Tower, 421 00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:22,960 that's actually a mistake, right wasn't it original name? 422 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,799 Speaker 2: It's a tragic mistranslation. This site is incredibly sacred to 423 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,119 numerous indigenous peoples, particularly the Lakota, the Kioa, and the Cheyenne. 424 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:37,759 The Lakota call it Matho Fhippola, which means bear lodge. 425 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,799 There are several beautiful legends associated with it, most involving 426 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:44,480 a giant bear whose claws scraped the sides of the 427 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:46,759 rock as it tried to reach children who had magically 428 00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:50,000 been lifted to the summit for safety. It's a place 429 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,960 of refuge and spiritual power. 430 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: So where in the world did devil come from? 431 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: The name was likely given by a Colonel Richard Dodge 432 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,039 during an expedition in eighteen seventy five. The most common 433 00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:04,720 theory is that his interpreter simply mistranslated a native word. 434 00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:07,079 Perhaps they used a word for a bad god or 435 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,359 an evil spirit in a different context and he just 436 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,720 ran with it. Or maybe they just saw the natives 437 00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,519 treating the site with such awe and reverence, and through 438 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:16,759 a colonial lens, assumed it must be some form of 439 00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:20,440 devil worship that's infuriating it is. It's the classic colonial error. 440 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,039 If it's strange and powerful, and I don't understand it. 441 00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:25,599 Speaker 1: It must be demonic, because the indigenous view is the 442 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,599 complete opposite of that. The source of material says they 443 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,440 view it as a place of positive energy, a place 444 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,920 you go to recharge, to pray. 445 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,039 Speaker 2: Exactly. It's an altar, not a fortress of evil. But 446 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,359 once you slap the name devil onto an official map, 447 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,640 it primes every visitor. You go there expecting something ominous, 448 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,480 something dark. Language shapes perception. 449 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:49,559 Speaker 1: But then in the nineteen seventies the folklore around it 450 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:53,440 shifted again dramatically. We traded demons for aliens. 451 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 2: The Spielberg effect. It's impossible to overstate the impact of 452 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,880 close encounters of the third kind. After Steven Spielberg used 453 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,759 the tower as the climactic landing site for the Mothership, 454 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:06,920 Tourism there literally doubled overnight and has never dropped. 455 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: Back down, and the whole narrative changed completely. 456 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 2: People don't look at it now and think geology or 457 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:14,119 native alter or even to devil. They look at it 458 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,279 and they think UFO parking lot. It's become the focal 459 00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:19,039 point for a whole new mythology. 460 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: It just shows how malleable our myths are, doesn't it, 461 00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:25,480 we update them based on whatever our current cultural obsessions are. 462 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,680 In eighteen seventy five, we were obsessed with the Devil 463 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,160 and conquering the Savage Wilderness. In nineteen seventy seven, we 464 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,039 were obsessed with space and the possibility of extraterrestrial contact. 465 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: And in both cases, the tower serves as a perfect 466 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:41,480 vessel for the other, the unexplained. There's a great quote 467 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,359 in the source material from one of the experts. He 468 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,599 says something like, we like to walk around with the 469 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,519 confidence that we know this planet, but there seems to 470 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:49,640 be nothing but mystery. 471 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:50,799 Speaker 1: I love that. 472 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: And the tower just stands there. It's this nine hundred 473 00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,599 foot tall stone, cold reminder that we are very small 474 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,200 and the world is very, very weird. 475 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: Speaking of the world being weird and genuinely scary, we 476 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,039 are now leaving the wide open plains of Wyoming and 477 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:10,000 heading to the east coast to a place that honestly 478 00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,759 scares me more than the tower. The Pine barrens of 479 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:14,000 southern New Jersey. 480 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,319 Speaker 2: A million acres of dense, near impenetrable forest sandwiched right 481 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:20,880 in the middle of the most densely populated part of America. 482 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,799 Speaker 1: It's so true people think of New Jersey, and they 483 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:26,759 think of turnpikes and industrial zones, you know, the sopranos, 484 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,680 But the pine barrens are they're different. The soil is 485 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,400 acidic and sandy. The water in the streams is this 486 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:35,920 strange tea color from all the cedar trees and the 487 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,440 iron in the ground. And it's quiet, too quiet. Yes, 488 00:23:39,799 --> 00:23:42,039 it's the perfect incubator for a monster. 489 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:43,799 Speaker 2: And they have one of the most famous ones in 490 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,880 American history, the Jersey Devil. 491 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,279 Speaker 1: This is my absolute favorite cryptid because the description is 492 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,759 just so wonderfully chaotic. It makes no biological sense. 493 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,279 Speaker 2: It's a total chimera. The witnesses over the centuries describe 494 00:23:56,319 --> 00:23:59,680 a creature with a horse's head, large bat like wings, 495 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:02,880 a long body that sometimes described as being like a kangaroo's, 496 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,079 thin bird like legs, with hoofs, a forked tail, and horns. 497 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: This sounds like a child's drawing of a monster that 498 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,680 just came to life. 499 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: Or, as one of the experts in the source called it, 500 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:16,400 a product of doctor Frankenstein's lab. But more than the look, 501 00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:20,079 it's the sound. The blood curdling screech or roar is 502 00:24:20,079 --> 00:24:22,640 what people really focus on. That's the thing that terrifies 503 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,319 them in the dark. 504 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: So the origin story here is incredibly specific. It's not 505 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,400 just some vague legend. We have a time and a place. 506 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:33,759 Seventeen thirty five. Mother leads right a. 507 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: Woman named Jane Leeds who lived at a place called 508 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:38,079 Leeds Point, right on the edge of the barns. The 509 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,440 story goes she was pregnant with her thirteenth child, thirteenth Wow, 510 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,880 and she was impoverished. She was exhausted, probably dealing with 511 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,240 a husband who wasn't much help, and in a moment 512 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:52,839 of pure despair, she cursed the unborn child. She cried out, 513 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,839 I'm tired of having children. The devil can take this one. 514 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,519 Speaker 1: Which you know, as far as parenting strategies go. 515 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 2: Is poor, not generally recommended. No, But according to the legend, 516 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,240 the curse took. The baby was born on a stormy night, 517 00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:09,319 and at first it seemed like a normal, healthy boy. 518 00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:11,400 But then within minutes it began. 519 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: To change transform. 520 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,279 Speaker 2: It elongated, the wings sprouted from its back, the head 521 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:18,079 became horse like. It thrashed around the room, attacked the 522 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:20,440 family and the midwife, and then shot at the chimney 523 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,240 and flew off into the darkness of the pines screeching. 524 00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:26,279 Speaker 1: What I love about this story is that it didn't 525 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:28,880 just stay a local folk tale told around a campfire. 526 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:32,720 It almost immediately entered the historical record. Yeah, you have 527 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,480 very prominent, credible people claiming to see it. 528 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,599 Speaker 2: Commodore Stephen Decatur. I mean, we're talking about a genuine 529 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:41,759 American naval hero, the guy who fought the Barbary Pirates, 530 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:44,440 famous for the line our country right or wrong. 531 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: A serious guy, yeah, not a fantasist at all. 532 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: And he's at the Hanover Ironworks in the pine barrens, 533 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,200 testing out cannonballs. He sees this strange flying creature, and 534 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,000 being a military man, his first reaction isn't too hide 535 00:25:58,079 --> 00:25:58,640 or run away. 536 00:25:58,759 --> 00:25:59,519 Speaker 1: He shoots at it. 537 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: He shoots with a cannon. 538 00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:03,039 Speaker 1: He fired a cannon at a cryptid. 539 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: That's amazing, allegedly, and the story that's passed down claims 540 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,559 he actually hit it, blew a hole right through one 541 00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:11,839 of its wings. But the creature didn't drop. It didn't 542 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:13,839 even seem to notice. It just kept on flying. 543 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,559 Speaker 1: Now, look, if a drunk guy at a tavern tells 544 00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:19,480 you he saw a dragon, you can probably ignore him. 545 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,160 But if a decorated naval commodore tells you he shot 546 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,880 a cannon at a dragon and it just shrugged off 547 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,039 and kept flying. You kind of have to listen. 548 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: It lends an air of credibility that most folklore doesn't have. 549 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Or it tells you that maybe Dicatur missed his target 550 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,039 and needed a really, really spectacular excuse for his superiors. 551 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: Sorry about the ways that ammunitions here, there was a 552 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,319 dragon classic. But the real meat of this story, for me, 553 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,000 the part that elevates it, is the year nineteen oh nine, 554 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,240 because this is where the monster moves from just being 555 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:53,039 a legend to being a full blown sociological event. 556 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 2: The Great Panic of January nineteen oh nine. This is 557 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480 one of the most fascinating case studies in mass hysteria 558 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,480 in America history. 559 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: Walk us through it. What happened? 560 00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:04,519 Speaker 2: It started in the Hiddle of January, a few scattered 561 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:07,359 sightings here and there. Then the local newspapers picked up 562 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,079 the stories, and suddenly the flood grates just opened. Over 563 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,759 the course of one week, there were literally thousands of 564 00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:16,640 reports from across the entire Delaware Valley, not just in 565 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,640 the pine barrens, but in Philadelphia, in Trenton, all over. 566 00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: Thousands. Yeah, in one week. 567 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: Thousands people were seeing it in their backyards. They were 568 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,240 finding strange, cloven hoof prints on the rooftops, which, by 569 00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,599 the way, is physically impossible for any known animal. A 570 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,559 trolley car full of people and Hadden Heights was reportedly 571 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,279 dive bombed by the creature, causing mass panic. 572 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: A trolley car that is pure cinema. I can just 573 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:40,680 picture it. 574 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,319 Speaker 2: And the panic was genuine and widespread. It wasn't a joke. 575 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,599 Schools closed down, mills and factories shut down because workers 576 00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:50,759 were too afraid to walk to work in the dark. 577 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,720 People were barricading themselves in their homes. 578 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: And didn't the Philadelphia Zoo get involved. 579 00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 2: They did. They offered a ten thousand dollars reward for 580 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,400 the creature, dead or alive, which in nineteen oh nine 581 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:05,160 was an absolute fortune. Pauses were formed, Groups of men 582 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,240 were roaming the woods with shotguns hunting for it. It 583 00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:08,920 was chaos. 584 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: This is what I find so fascinating. We could sid 585 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,039 he and laugh at the description of the horseback kangaroo monster, 586 00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:17,160 but the fear was real. The economic impact of the 587 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,720 shutdowns was real. The social panic was real. 588 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,319 Speaker 2: It's a perfect example of a social contagion. One person 589 00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:25,000 sees a shadow in the dark and calls it the 590 00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:28,400 Jersey Devil. The next person reads that story in the paper, 591 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,599 and now their brain is primed. Now every rustle in 592 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,440 the leaves, every screech of a fox and red foxes 593 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,480 makes some truly terrifying sounds at night. By the way, 594 00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:41,480 it all gets filtered through that lens and becomes the monster. 595 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,839 Speaker 1: But even the skeptics in the source material admit something 596 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,799 must have triggered it. You don't get thousands of reports 597 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:49,720 from zero something was out there. 598 00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:53,039 Speaker 2: No, you don't. And interestingly, this is where the indigenous 599 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:56,720 history comes back into play yet again. The local Lenape 600 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,200 people had a name for that area long before the 601 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,799 colonists arrived. If they called it the place of the Dragon, seriously, seriously, 602 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:06,440 it was a place they largely avoided. They felt the 603 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:09,279 land itself was wrong, unsettling. 604 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,039 Speaker 1: So maybe the mother Leads story was just the colonist's 605 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:14,920 way of putting a narrative to a vibe and energy 606 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:16,839 that was already there in the land itself. 607 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,519 Speaker 2: Exactly. The land is a personality, and sometimes that personality 608 00:29:20,519 --> 00:29:23,000 feels ancient and hostile, and we give it a name 609 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,160 Jersey Devil, spirit, dragon, satan, so that we can process. 610 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: That fear, and that really brings us full circle, doesn't it. 611 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,960 From the sacrificial fires of the Valley of Hindhem and 612 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:36,039 Jerusalem to the dark, cedar choked woods of New Jersey. 613 00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:38,759 Speaker 2: It's all part of the same thread. Humanity is small. 614 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,000 The world is large and dangerous and often completely random. 615 00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:45,839 And we don't like random. We don't like unexplained. It 616 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,400 makes us feel powerless. 617 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,079 Speaker 1: So we create a box to put the chaos in. 618 00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: Create a box and we write a label on it, 619 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,759 evil or devil or monster. If we can name the darkness, 620 00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,160 we feel like we have some small measure of power 621 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,960 over it. If the crop fails, it's not just bad 622 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,279 luck with the weather. It's a demon that I can 623 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:05,880 try to appease with a sacrifice. 624 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: If I have a profound mental breakdown, it's not just 625 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,440 my neurons misfiring. It's a spirit that a priest can 626 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,359 try to exercise. 627 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: If there's a terrifying noise in the woods at night, 628 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,680 it's not just the wind or a fox, it's the 629 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:21,559 Jersey Devil, a known entity with a backstory. The monster 630 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,720 serves a purpose. It localizes the fear. It gives us 631 00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:26,680 a target for our anxiety. 632 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:29,519 Speaker 1: And in a very weird, roundabout way, it keeps us safe. 633 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,480 The fear of hell keeps you moral and in line 634 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:35,279 with your community. The fear of the Jersey Devil keeps 635 00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:38,440 you from wandering into a dangerous, disorienting swamp in the 636 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:39,160 middle of the night. 637 00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:42,599 Speaker 2: The devil, in all his forms, is the ultimate cautionary tale. 638 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: So I guess we have to turn this over to you, 639 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,440 the listener. We've thrown a lot of really heavy stuff 640 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,000 at you today, child sacrifice, theology, exorcism, aliens and cryptids, 641 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,200 but the core question running through all of it remains 642 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:55,640 the same. 643 00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: Are we seeing real monsters out there in the world 644 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,960 or are we just seeing our own shit reflected back 645 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:01,720 at us in the dark. 646 00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,559 Speaker 1: What is your stand on these thrilling threads. Do you 647 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:08,559 believe these things are manifestations of a genuine spiritual war, 648 00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:12,880 real entities, real demons that exist independently of us, or 649 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,119 is this all just the powerful human imagination filling in 650 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,519 the planks that science hasn't gotten to yet because we're 651 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:20,279 too afraid to sit in the dark alone. 652 00:31:20,319 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: I am genuinely curious to see where our audience lands 653 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,960 on this one. Is the Devil real or is he 654 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,440 simply the most successful and enduring literary character of all time? 655 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:31,319 Speaker 1: Leave us a comment. We really want to know your theory. 656 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,240 And hey, if you have a local legend or a 657 00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:38,480 spooky spot in your own hometown that just feels off, 658 00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:39,759 tell us about that too. 659 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: We would love to investigate those threads. 660 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,599 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on this particularly dark journey. 661 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,799 Speaker 2: I'm your host and I'm the expert. 662 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: And this has been thrilling threads. Keep pulling on those strings. 663 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,440 You never ever know what might be waiting at the 664 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:54,920 other end. 665 00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:56,759 Speaker 2: Just maybe don't look up the chimney. 666 00:31:56,799 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: You definitely don't do that. See you next time.