WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:05.160 Love MNS. Quality and value you can trust. At MNS 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:08.880 you can update your home, your wardrobe and theirs with 3 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:12.720 quality you can count on. There's the ultimate twelve euro 4 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:17.239 les bras, the softest ever kid sweats from six Euro fifty, 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:22.079 luxurious Egyptian cotton towels from eight euro twenty five, and 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:26.800 so much more value you can trust only at MNS 7 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:29.839 shop in store or at Marxenspencer dot e. 8 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.560 Oh hi, it's the French fry under your seat. You 9 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.880 won't find for another four months. Ali Ward and here 10 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.560 we are. The trashiest episode of Ologies ever made. This 11 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:45.880 is another one of those years in the making interviews. 12 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:48.240 You're going to talk about it forever. So I came 13 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.399 across this person's name in relation to garbage, and I thought, 14 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.759 I must meet this garbage person. They seem great. They 15 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.640 are a clinical professor in New York University's Liberal Studies Department. 16 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:02.000 They teach on the topic of garbage. They have worked 17 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:06.040 intimately with garbage. They did a ted talk about garbage. 18 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:10.159 They have three anthropology degrees from Columbia University and an 19 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:14.000 undergrad and anthropology from New York University, and even authored 20 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.799 the book Picking Up on the streets and behind the trucks. 21 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:21.519 With the sanitation workers of New York City the perfect fit. 22 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.680 Rubbish research is their life's work. So on a crisp 23 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.879 fall day in Manhattan, I navigated the cobblestones to a 24 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:32.680 conference room on the NYU City campus. And as a 25 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.239 side note, this episode was recorded in twenty twenty two, 26 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:38.239 but I'm sharing it with you again for Earth Day 27 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:42.120 month because it's a favorite among the entire Ology staff, 28 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:44.719 and listeners say that it has impacted them for years. 29 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:46.840 They think about it all the time. I love it 30 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.840 so yes. It was an autumn afternoon at twenty twenty two, 31 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.599 and I routinely test for COVID for shoots and stuff. 32 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:55.879 I had tested negative the day before, but I had 33 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.439 been in an indoor gallery event that week, so I 34 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:01.040 wanted to keep my mask on for our interview just 35 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.359 in case. Because COVID is awful, but masks are easy. 36 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:04.760 Oh. 37 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.000 One other easy thing to do, if you don't mind, 38 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.639 is maybe tell a friend about this podcast Ologies, or 39 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:14.039 you can support by becoming a patron for a dollar 40 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:18.520 a month at patreon dot com. Slash Ologies. Also, rating, subscribing, 41 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:20.919 and leaving reviews helps the show so much. And I 42 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:23.800 read every single one, such as this very recent one 43 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.599 left by SJC mud Hut, who said Ali is my 44 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.599 new best friend, and I really can't help believing she 45 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:36.280 makes this podcast for me and me alone, SJC mud Hut, 46 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.240 It is all for you. Don't tell everyone else. 47 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:40.159 Okay. 48 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:42.639 On the episode, your brain is about to become a 49 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:47.000 dumpster of facts about what people throw away, where garbage goes, 50 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:51.879 who takes it there, Finding treasure in landfills, when an 51 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:57.439 item becomes garbage, what plastic you can actually recycle, burning trash, 52 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:05.159 building on trash, cherishing trash, and more with professor, scholar, author, garbologist, 53 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:09.960 discard anthropologist. One of the two, doctor Robin Nakel. 54 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.960 My name is Robin Nagel, and my pronouns are any all. 55 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.319 Her most commonly used are she her, So we'll go 56 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:40.240 with that the title of this episode. That's more ambiguous. 57 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:45.639 But garbageology not your favorite word, which I'm like, let's 58 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:47.759 hear it, because it is one of those words that 59 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.280 it it sounds like a company that makes garbage cans. 60 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:58.759 Okay, I'll accept that. But as a description of what 61 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.360 we could call a field of concern of study of 62 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:08.039 crisis of environmental profound environmental relevance. It's too narrow because 63 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:12.000 garbage is only one way of thinking about waste. 64 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:16.040 But is there a particular way that you describe your 65 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:17.759 niche in anthropology. 66 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.399 Yeah, so it's kind of under the umbrella of what 67 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.279 we called applied anthropology. My goal in working with New 68 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.839 York City Department of Sanitation is twofold. One is to 69 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.639 help the public understand what it is to be a 70 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:35.439 sanitation worker in the city, for the city, and why 71 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.000 should you care to know that? And the other is 72 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:43.600 to help the workforce recognize ways in which they are 73 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:48.199 valuable on this meta level that sometimes they don't even 74 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:54.800 necessarily acknowledge. I have said many times the Sanitation department 75 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.839 is the most important workforce in the City of New York, 76 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.879 and I get push back even from people on the job. 77 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.920 And I like it when I get pushed back from them, 78 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:07.160 in particular because then I launch into my whole rap 79 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.560 about public health and the diseases that would make COVID 80 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:15.560 look like a sneeze if garbage were not managed more 81 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.360 or less very well. And I'm not saying it's perfect. 82 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.920 We certainly had huge problems during the pandemic because of 83 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:25.680 budget cutbacks and how the operational side of the job 84 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.879 was thrown into not chaos, but how do you prevent 85 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:30.120 it from being thrown into chaos? 86 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:30.399 Right? 87 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:35.319 So those realities are always out there. But if sanitation 88 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:38.079 isn't on the street every day, this is not the 89 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.519 New York is not the glittering global capital we imagine. 90 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.199 It to be. And you know, I was thinking about 91 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.759 it on the way over here too, the difference between 92 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:53.240 focusing on the garbage, which is dirty, which is something 93 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:57.519 we all fear, versus the sanitation, which is the solution. 94 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.160 So do you find that the way that we talk 95 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:05.160 about garbage versus sanitation really depends on if we're focusing 96 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:06.240 on like the good or the. 97 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.160 Bad't I never thought of it that way. I like 98 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.959 that distinction, and I think you've pinpointed a key element here, 99 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:18.839 which is garbage equates with fear for fascinating reasons. But sanitation. 100 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.199 One of the challenges with the word is that we 101 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:26.120 could use sanitation to only be talking about things like sewage. Right, 102 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:29.759 So when we say sanitation, do we mean garbage, do 103 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.279 we mean other forms of waste? Do we mean the 104 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.439 kinds of protocols that are in place? In medical facilities 105 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:41.639 and healthcare. All of that has a sanitation connotation or context. 106 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:46.160 So same with the word garbage, though, like what exactly 107 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.519 do we mean by that word? Because it's a multifaceted 108 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.240 category of material, and depending on how it's defined, that 109 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.839 dictates I'll say, what happens next and where it goes, 110 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.079 and what workforce is responsible for it? And what harms 111 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:05.680 does it cause or do we prevent it from causing? 112 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.399 All by the definition, so, to say something is discarded 113 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:13.240 implies that it's useless to the person discarding it, but 114 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:19.000 not inherently valueless. But garbage can mean food, waste or 115 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.879 useless stuff. But does even waste have an inherent value 116 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:24.920 we shall discuss. 117 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:31.160 It also allows for thinking about forms of land, categories 118 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:34.519 of people, ways of using time. Do we waste time? 119 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.480 Do we save time? Are we discarding? Like it's just 120 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:42.079 far more It's a far broader and thus perhaps more 121 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.759 exciting way to think about both the problem, the analysis, 122 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.480 and then some of the potential solutions. 123 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.120 How long have you been in this field and why, 124 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.759 of all the fields of anthropology, did you be lyned 125 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:56.600 for this one or did you pingpong around a bit? 126 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:00.199 Well, my earlier work in anthropology was about religion, but 127 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:05.120 I've always been intrigued by the problem of garbage in 128 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.279 particular and waste in general, and when I had the 129 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.800 chance to teach about it, I came up with a 130 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.959 syllabus that became a class called Garbage in Gotham, the 131 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.279 Anthropology of Trash That's amazing, And one of the speakers 132 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.000 was a sanitation worker I had met just on the street, 133 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.360 who took great care when recycling rolled out in New 134 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:29.519 York City to customize the chrome on his truck and 135 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.120 make it look like such a clean vehicle that you 136 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.600 could not imagine putting garbage in the back. Because people 137 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.120 were still throwing garbage in the back of his truck 138 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.679 when it was supposed to be just recyclables, and it 139 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.039 really pissed him off. So he decided to address this 140 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.720 himself and it got him a lot of really good media. 141 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.120 So he was a guest speaker in my class, which 142 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:52.679 was wonderful. But the more I learned about the job, 143 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.399 the more I realized, especially as an anthropologist, you can't 144 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.360 just hear stories and then draw conclusion about what is 145 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:05.559 essentially a subculture, right it is its own world, So 146 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.320 then I realized I had to do field work in 147 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:14.600 person participant observation, the classic anthropology methodology. And then I realized, 148 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:19.000 no matter how detailed that work was, I was not 149 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.480 responsible for or even legally allowed to drive a truck. 150 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.360 I wasn't on the job. Right if I said I'd 151 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.240 be at a given garage on a given morning, and 152 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.360 I woke up that morning, I'm like, yeah, I don't 153 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.080 feel like it, which I will admit once in a 154 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:35.360 while that happens. My bad. But once in a while 155 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.039 it happened. Well, no consequence to me except that I 156 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:42.120 now have a reputation as being flaky. But there's no 157 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.440 no hammer falls. But if I'm on the job, I 158 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.679 have a legal obligation to be in that garage for 159 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:51.919 roll call. The city has a legal obligation to make 160 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.519 sure I am qualified to drive the truck, to operate 161 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.919 the broom. Those kinds of far more detailed trainings and relationship. 162 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.240 That's what I needed to do. So I went through 163 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:05.240 the whole process. I took the test, I got hired. 164 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.600 It took about a year from taking the test to 165 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:13.440 actually getting hired because it's a very long, slow, tedious process, 166 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.440 in part because the City of New York must make 167 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.000 sure by its own metrics, that you, the individual, are 168 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.519 qualified and capable to do the job they're hiring you 169 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:23.759 to do. 170 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:28.679 As we recorded this in Manhattan's Greden Trillage, trucks of 171 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.840 all kinds, garbage and delivery rumbled outside. So just enjoy 172 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:33.799 the New York ambiance. 173 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:38.360 It's been a puzzle and a kind of an obsession 174 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:40.200 of mine for as long as I can remember. 175 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.840 Have you, before you got the job to do the research, 176 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:46.879 had you ever driven anything bigger than like a U 177 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:47.559 haul before? 178 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:51.559 So my high school sweetheart, his dad owned a moving company, 179 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.600 and so he taught me how to drive a double 180 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.240 clutch mac. Oh my god. Now, but this was only 181 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.759 the cab. I never had a trailer behind, but it 182 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.679 was It was a blast. And he also taught me 183 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.159 how to the beginnings of how to operate a bulldozer, 184 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.320 which is not the same as an FBL a front 185 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.720 end loader. Like each of these pieces of equipment require 186 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.519 specific skill and time and forms of knowledge that we 187 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:21.080 don't We don't acknowledge the expertise that is required to 188 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.120 do those particular kinds of jobs really well, Like you 189 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.159 can use a bulldozer to gouge them out of a 190 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.720 landscape when you meant to have a nice smooth surface, right. 191 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.440 And it's same with driving a Mac truck, which is 192 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.159 why I'm glad we didn't have a trailer. When he's 193 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.440 teaching me how to do the double clutch thing. So 194 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.320 cool that Mac truck. So that was And then most 195 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:44.639 of the cabs for sanitation trucks are also Mac, but 196 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.799 they're all automatic transmission. Now there are no more standard 197 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.879 transmission trucks, which probably just as well, but not great 198 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.799 for fuel efficiency. But that's a whole other thing. 199 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:59.440 But before you are able to drive a garbage truck, 200 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.440 do you do donuts in like a church parking lot, 201 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.960 like when you're sixteen and you gotta figure out how 202 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:06.039 to book and drive a car. 203 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:14.960 So no short answer, longer answer. When I took the 204 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:19.440 test for the permit for my commercial driver's license, I 205 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.759 already had a regular driver's license because I didn't grow 206 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.200 up in New York City, So we actually did donuts 207 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.639 on frozen parking lots in high school in the wee 208 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.600 hours of the morning with no grown ups around, being 209 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:36.840 a little bad, misbehaving children. So when I took the 210 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:41.600 CDL and went through the training that sanitation offers, which 211 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.080 is very thorough and meticulous, and then the road test 212 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.240 and all of that. I was very nervous. But when 213 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.399 I arrived for that first day of class, I'm sitting 214 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.320 next to a young man half my age, and he 215 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.360 never drove anything before he got a CDL because he 216 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.080 was born and raised in New York City, where you 217 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.200 don't really need a car the way a suburban high 218 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.799 school or a teenager may need a car. In fact, 219 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.159 I don't know if this is true, but I have 220 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:15.159 read that the rates of teenage mortality are lowest in 221 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:19.200 New York City around the country because they're not driving cars. 222 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.720 Yeah right. I checked into this, and the state with 223 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:27.159 the highest teen death rate not New York. The top 224 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:33.919 three were Louisiana, Alaska, and Arkansas. So be careful on 225 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:38.279 those roads, kiddo. You gotta slow down, pay attention, you 226 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.320 know what. Just so a tip for me, designated driver. 227 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.440 My sister was the victim of a drunk driving accident 228 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.919 when she was sixteen, and she was airlifted to a hospital. 229 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:54.480 The windshield was shattered by her face, and luckily for us, 230 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.360 she made it out and she is fine, but she 231 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:01.279 was picking glass out of her forehead. Years later, the 232 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.759 guy driving broke a bunch of his legs. So designate 233 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.440 a driver or volunteer to be for one of your 234 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.679 friends who will love you all the more knowing that 235 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.159 they have a safe ride home during which they will 236 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.519 not get killed or arrested, just saying and buckle up, 237 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:15.960 thank you. 238 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.639 So I knew how to do donuts in a parking lot, right, 239 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.759 but that doesn't mean you know how to do it 240 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.679 with a garbage truck. With a collection truck. That's its 241 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.600 own that I will say you do on the road 242 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:32.240 in a collection truck because nobody wants to be near you. 243 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:33.879 They don't know if you're empty or full. They just 244 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:35.879 don't want to be anywhere near you. So you kind 245 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.600 of were the king. Yeah, we're a majestyesty, which was fun. 246 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.600 Robin's twenty thirteen Ted talk is titled What I Discovered 247 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.600 in New York City Trash, and she explains that a 248 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.120 childhood camping trip left a really deep impression. And by 249 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.440 that I think I mean it scarred her, but thankfully 250 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:53.720 so for us. 251 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.279 We got to our campsite, it was a lean to 252 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.200 on a bluff looking over a crystal, beautiful lake when 253 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.360 I discovered a horror behind the lean to was a 254 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.559 dump maybe forty feet square, with rotting apple cores and 255 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:14.399 balled up aluminum foil and a dead sneaker. And I 256 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.879 was astonished. I was very angry, and I was deeply 257 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.279 confused the campers who were too lazy to take out 258 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.799 what they had brought in. Who did they think would 259 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:29.320 clean up after them? That question stayed with me, and 260 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.919 it simplified a little who cleans up after us? 261 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.279 Now, you mentioned that this was an early obsession for you, 262 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.159 But talking about the history of garbage, if we could 263 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.360 go back, when does garbage start in humanity? I mean 264 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.080 we have probably piles of charred bones and things from 265 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:52.799 dating back to the beginning of humans gathering, there have 266 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.679 been garbage piles. 267 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.440 Right, depends again on your definition of garbage. So one 268 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.519 of the fun challenges is to decide when is it 269 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.519 garbage quotes around the word, and when is it evidence 270 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:11.320 archaeological treasure, some kind of tidbit of a story of 271 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.960 our own past. I did a lot of work before, 272 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.440 just as part of the bigger project with what's called 273 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.200 the human relations area of files ATREFS so the human 274 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.919 relations area of files are a compendium of ethnographic data 275 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:33.320 cross referenced around. You name the category kinship, child rearing, economic, 276 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.600 and you know to say economy. That's a huge subject. 277 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:40.799 So underneath that inheritance rules ways of organizing what we 278 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.600 might call religious belief and ceremony and ritual. And so 279 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.600 I spent quite a while looking at how cultures have 280 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.720 dealt with waste, how do they define it and what 281 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:54.039 do they do about it? And one of the intriguing 282 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.000 findings I think is that we've kind of never come 283 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.360 up with a particularly great way of dealing with it. 284 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.200 Some small scale cultures, when it just got to be 285 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.680 too much, they just up and moved to a different location. 286 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:10.880 Others have buried it over time to the point where 287 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.440 they raise their elevation. In fact, some of the older 288 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.039 cities of the world, this is true in Rome and 289 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.720 some of the other great cities in Europe and parts 290 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:24.039 of Asia, some have specific scavenger species they rely on 291 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:27.680 to take care of what we would call waste. Putting 292 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.319 it in a nearby waterway has been very fashionable for 293 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:35.319 millennia and not a problem until, of course, we well, 294 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:38.000 until many things came to pass. But when we were 295 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:44.119 all smaller scale, it didn't decimate that waterway. We've burned it, 296 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:48.119 we've used it for fuel, we've ignored it, we have 297 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.640 mapped it onto different classes, so that if you are 298 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.599 closer to a given form of waste, through no fault 299 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.240 of your own, you are considered sort of there's a 300 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.799 contagion kind of belief that goes with that, and then 301 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.119 you or status within that culture is diminished. In other words, 302 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:08.279 we kind of only to ever burn berry or dump 303 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:12.000 in the water or give to scavengers. Recycling. We call 304 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.119 it recycling, but before that word, it was just reusing 305 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.240 something until it fell apart, right, which we used to 306 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.039 do more commonly. And now it's coming back almost through 307 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:24.720 this And I don't mean this in a derogatory way, 308 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.200 but this almost BOUTIQUI DIY, Like, Look, I unraveled this 309 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.000 old sweater and now I'm re knitting with that yarn, 310 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.200 which I think is really really cool. It doesn't scale 311 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.079 up necessarily, and that's a problem if we want to 312 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.319 solve the challenge, the problem that is solid waste broadly 313 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:45.640 defined sweater unraveling by itself. Let's put it this. It's 314 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:46.319 a good first step. 315 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.440 You're doing great, and was there a really big difference 316 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.519 in terms of how sanitation was handled pre and post 317 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:55.640 plastic era? 318 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:01.319 Plastics have changed the whole game. We would like to 319 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:07.880 believe that plastics are recyclable, but that's not really true. 320 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.440 They degrade each time they go through a recycling process, 321 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.720 so after a few times through, you really only have 322 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.319 a slurry that you can't build or do anything with, 323 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.279 and it ends up in an incinerator or landfill anyway. 324 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:28.599 Plastics also off gas always, so there's always some kind 325 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.640 of chemical component that's inside the water of the plastic 326 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.000 water bottle, inside the food, in the plastic packaging, inside 327 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:39.000 the baby's mouth when they're suckling on some plastic, you know. 328 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:44.799 So that's another waste product that is invisible to us, 329 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.440 but that is that we now carry in our bodies, 330 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.480 especially in our fat cells. There is almost no species 331 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:55.000 of being on the planet that does not have some 332 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:59.359 of these so called forever chemicals inside of ourselves. All 333 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:04.000 like name the animal, name the insect, those chemicals are present. 334 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.119 These chemicals I looked into it are called per and 335 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:12.240 polyfluorinated alkyl substances or pfos, and there are close to 336 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.920 five thousand different types of pfos, But one thing they 337 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.079 have in common is that they don't occur in nature, 338 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:22.440 and bacteria can't break them down, and neither can fire 339 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.920 or water. Fun Why don't you want such a hardy, 340 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.920 toxic compound in your system? Oh? Just things like changes 341 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.440 in liver enzymes, increased risk of high blood pressure or 342 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.039 preaclamsia in pregnant people, small decreases in infant birth weights, 343 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.559 increased risk of kidney or testicular cancer, increased cholesterol levels, 344 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.839 and decreased vaccine response in children, according to the CDC's 345 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.119 Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Boy, maybe we 346 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:55.880 have a solution here. In August of twenty twenty, a 347 00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.759 study was published called Low Temperature Mineralization of perfluoro carboxylic 348 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.799 Acids by some environmental chemists at Northwestern University who found 349 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.599 that a few types of pfas can indeed decompose using 350 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:13.359 some inexpensive and easy to obtain reagents sodium hydroxide and 351 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.079 dimethyl sulfoxide. In case you're taking notes, at about two 352 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.480 hundred and forty eight degrees fahrenheit, which is a relatively 353 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.960 low temperature that won't even bake a cookie, but the 354 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.960 end product is non toxic and benign. This is amazing. 355 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.200 This just came out a few months ago. Did we 356 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.359 fix forever chemicals? Not at all, Not at all. This 357 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.440 only works on certain types of p fas, and environmental 358 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.640 scientists still say to stop making and dumping them. Like 359 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.920 we learned in the Oceanology episode, the first task in 360 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.119 cleaning up the ocean is to stop letting so much 361 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.359 trash into the ocean in the first place. Otherwise you're 362 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:55.319 just chasing your toxic tail. Oh, speaking of plastics. 363 00:21:55.079 --> 00:22:01.759 Plastics also connect to a kind of industrial process and 364 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:08.359 complex of planned obsolescence and trying to convince a larger 365 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.519 public that each of us, as an individual is responsible 366 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.480 for making sure that plastic object goes into the right 367 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:18.319 bin to be recycled, even though the recyclability of it 368 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:23.400 is mostly a myth. But there was a deliberate campaign 369 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:26.920 that started in the nineteen fifties to teach us that 370 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:31.720 we are the individuals responsible, and by extension, municipalities are responsible. 371 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.599 The responsibility for sanitary refuse disposal falls upon every citizen, not. 372 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:45.400 The manufacturers of those products. That changes everything and The 373 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.039 other problem with plastics, of course, among many others, is 374 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.759 their longevity. They don't biodegrade, or if they do, it's very, 375 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:58.720 very very slow. And meanwhile they are contributing their chemical 376 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.079 composition to these large environments and animals. 377 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:08.319 I just want to say one word, tail, just one word, Yes, 378 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.559 sir listening, Yes, are you plastics? 379 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.039 So? Yeah, plastics. Plastics has changed everything. 380 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.480 Does it change the way that you live your life 381 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:26.039 or what you use? I think we're all so anxious 382 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.200 about it. We don't know what to do. 383 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.799 Yeah, now that's a real problem, and especially this complete contradiction. 384 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:34.640 I have been taught that I, as an individual, am 385 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.559 responsible for saving the planet by making sure to recycle 386 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:42.720 my plastics and glass and paper and metal. But I 387 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.559 know partly because I study it, and then other people 388 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.200 know this sort of in their gut, like, yeah, this 389 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:51.200 doesn't I'm not sure. We've had recycling for a while now. 390 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:54.640 I don't see the earth getting better, so what's going on? 391 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:58.640 So it creates this cognitive dissonance. It erodes trust in 392 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.640 the systems that are telling us to please recycle. I 393 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:06.279 think that learning the practice of recycling being religious about it, 394 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.720 no pun intended. I think that's important because it can 395 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.720 create a push from the ground up from those of 396 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:18.960 us as individuals together to press for are there plastic 397 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:24.559 polymers that could actually be recycled. Are there compostable plastics 398 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:28.799 that could work in municipal compost systems? Because if something 399 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:33.279 says it's compostable, okay, that's great, compostable in what context 400 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.160 through what specific mechanisms of heat and time, and those 401 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.240