Speaker 1: You've created everything. What's put a powerful being?
Speaker 2: You are.
Speaker 1: You did these things, but now you're in a human body.
Speaker 1: You forget the power you have.
Speaker 2: What you do is what the whole universe is doing
Speaker 2: at the place you call here, and now you are
Speaker 2: something the whole universe is doing. In the same way
Speaker 2: that a way is something that the whole ocean is doing.
Speaker 1: You're doing doing what. Welcome to metamistics, where you don't
Speaker 1: know what you don't know. My name is Jonathan, I'm Sean,
Speaker 1: and today we are in line for a fun, fun show. Now.
Speaker 1: We have talked in the past about pantheism, right, I
Speaker 1: believe we did a whole episode on it. We've mentioned
Speaker 1: it a lot in passing and kind of vibe with
Speaker 1: the whole idea that everything is one, everything is divine,
Speaker 1: everything is God, there is no separation. Right, this is
Speaker 1: going to take it a step farther. Today we are
Speaker 1: talking about panpsychism, and this really ties into the first
Speaker 1: Hermetic principle that all is mind.
Speaker 3: That's right, mind over matter, you know, because if I
Speaker 3: don't mind, then you don't matter.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, yes, yes, And so you know, people for
Speaker 1: the longest time have said that you know, because there
Speaker 1: was physicality, that that physical life eventually evolved to have
Speaker 1: a spirit, a soul, a consciousness, a subconscious. That essentially
Speaker 1: that the subconscious and the conscious mind came after humanity
Speaker 1: and everything else evolved. And it basically to say that,
Speaker 1: like this, the conscious mind is secondary to the physical body. Now,
Speaker 1: most people would agree in my I mean, maybe it's
Speaker 1: just on our circle. I don't know, but I guess
Speaker 1: in my life most of the people I know would
Speaker 1: definitely agree that this is a temporary meat suit. And
Speaker 1: we know that that there has to be something more.
Speaker 1: There has to be, like we have existed outside of
Speaker 1: our body. Everybody has. That's what dreams are for. That's
Speaker 1: what psychedelic trips are for. That's what meditations are for.
Speaker 1: It's what past life regressions are for. That's what astro
Speaker 1: projection is for. It's what remote viewing is for. We
Speaker 1: can exist outside of the anchor that is this human body, right,
Speaker 1: And if that's possible, how is it possible if consciousness
Speaker 1: comes from physical body first? So you're trying to say
Speaker 1: that your conscious mind evolved but the physical body didn't.
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense if we're talking about evolution
Speaker 1: throughout the annals of history. Usually if the body would
Speaker 1: come first, I should be able to fly, if I
Speaker 1: can ask to project. If my mind is more feeble
Speaker 1: than my physical body, then I should be able to
Speaker 1: spread my wings and fly. And I would have evolved
Speaker 1: like that. But no happened the other way. The mind
Speaker 1: evolved farther than the not even just the mind, just
Speaker 1: the consciousness in general evolved more than the physical body
Speaker 1: ever did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just the idea that that consciousness itself is
Speaker 3: the fundamental aspect of reality that existed before everything else.
Speaker 3: And you know what, I can really get on board
Speaker 3: with that. And if not that, then at the very least,
Speaker 3: at the very least, you know, I might not even
Speaker 3: go that way, but the whole dualistic approach as far
Speaker 3: as like the physical and the consciousness being equal and fundamental,
Speaker 3: equally fundamental but separate, but I would tend to probably
Speaker 3: lean towards consciousness being the most fundamental then sprouting everything else,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. Like, we've had these experiences
Speaker 3: where almost seemingly we are able to understand what each
Speaker 3: other is thinking, you know, and almost finish each other's sentences.
Speaker 1: And this this aspect of our reality. That just that
Speaker 1: just is.
Speaker 3: You know, we might not be able to scientifically prove
Speaker 3: it and really quantify these things, but as far as
Speaker 3: experience goes, I can really get on board with it.
Speaker 1: Well, And that's the thing. Throughout many people's experiences, we
Speaker 1: can experience something that is outside of time, like our consciousness.
Speaker 1: Our mind is capable of experiencing something outside of time.
Speaker 1: Our body can't do that. Now, we don't get to
Speaker 1: take our body in our dreams, we don't get to
Speaker 1: take our body in our meditations. That's left behind. That's
Speaker 1: that's dead weight. Yep.
Speaker 3: Right, So you could say that the body is the
Speaker 3: farthest thing from the the emanation, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And so then in that, in that regard, it would
Speaker 3: come after consciousness itself.
Speaker 1: Yes, because the one essentially let's just call it consciousness
Speaker 1: from this data, from this point of view, the one
Speaker 1: would be consciousness further emanating to the physical reality aka
Speaker 1: the physical body. You know, your car, your bed, whatever
Speaker 1: those are. The I get what you're saying. That's perfect. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, So tonight we're exploring one of the deepest
Speaker 1: mysteries of all what is consciousness? And where does it
Speaker 1: come from? Is it just a byproduct of brain chemistry,
Speaker 1: or is it the fundamental stuff of reality itself? The
Speaker 1: dominant worldview and our modern age tells us that consciousness
Speaker 1: is nothing more than neurons firing, a byproduct of evolution,
Speaker 1: an accident of matter bumping into itself. But panpsychism flips
Speaker 1: that script entirely. It suggests that consciousness is not the
Speaker 1: end result of physical processes, but the ground floor of existence,
Speaker 1: the very essence that underlies everything. If that's true, then
Speaker 1: you and I are not fragile bodies that happen to
Speaker 1: be conscious. We are consciousness itself, wearing the mask of
Speaker 1: a for a time. And here's where it gets wild.
Speaker 1: If consciousness is fundamental that, then death is not the end.
Speaker 1: It's only a shift, a dissolving of the mask, a
Speaker 1: return to the whole. So tonight we're journeying through the philosophy, science,
Speaker 1: and spirituality of panpsychism, and we'll explore what it really
Speaker 1: means for life, for death, and for the dream of
Speaker 1: being human. Hmmm, dude, that's great. I love it.
Speaker 3: Man, Death being like almost an intermission of infinite intermissions.
Speaker 1: You know, it's the maya just a little break in
Speaker 1: between the illusion. You know, Yeah, we're tripping. And that's
Speaker 1: the thing is that we did the whole DMTX thing
Speaker 1: that has to prove it, you know, just the fact
Speaker 1: that our neurochemistry shows that we are in a much
Speaker 1: more aware state of mind under the influence of dmt
Speaker 1: and that whenever we don't have that going on, that
Speaker 1: awareness goes all the way down to roughly ten percent. Yep.
Speaker 1: I mean, what are we talking about.
Speaker 3: It's like the body itself is its own governor of
Speaker 3: the full, fullest potential of consciousness. You know, like consciousness
Speaker 3: is potential for so much more, but our body has
Speaker 3: to almost just narrow it down enough in order for
Speaker 3: us to fully understand what we're looking at just through
Speaker 3: our five senses.
Speaker 1: It's the life force, you know. So what is panpsychism
Speaker 1: At its core? Panpsychism is the belief that consciousness is
Speaker 1: a basic, irreductible feature of the universe, just like mass
Speaker 1: or charge. This means that awareness doesn't suddenly appear when
Speaker 1: brains get complicated enough. Instead, it's been here all along,
Speaker 1: woven into the fabric of reality. Every atom, every quark,
Speaker 1: every star, and every living creature participates in consciousness in
Speaker 1: some degree. Now, this doesn't mean that rocks are secretly
Speaker 1: thinking deep thoughts, or that your coffee mug has a
Speaker 1: hidden inner life the way that you do. Instead, it
Speaker 1: means that there's a faint, glimmering spark of experience in everything.
Speaker 1: You can think of it like light. It can be
Speaker 1: bright and intense, as in possibly a human brain, or
Speaker 1: dim and barely noticeable, as in the smallest particle, but
Speaker 1: it's still light in the same way. Consciousness runs on
Speaker 1: a spectrum. This is what this suggests. So panpsychism doesn't
Speaker 1: shrink consciousness down to nothingness like materialism tries to do,
Speaker 1: nor does it inflate it into a mystical miracle that
Speaker 1: only humans possess. It places consciousness everywhere, at every level
Speaker 1: and says this is what reality has been about from
Speaker 1: the very beginning. M this is just natured man, dude. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the it's foundational. Yes, you know. So the difference
Speaker 1: between panpsychism and pantheism, for those who may be wondering,
Speaker 1: I would say that they're kind of cousins, but there
Speaker 1: are distincts. Okay, So before we dive in, it's important
Speaker 1: to clear up a common point of confusion. Panpsychism is
Speaker 1: not the same as pantheism, though they sometimes overlap. Pantheism
Speaker 1: is the belief that everything is God, that the universe itself,
Speaker 1: in all of its vastness and detail, is divine. It's
Speaker 1: a spiritual or theological statement about divinity in the cosmos. Panpsychism,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, is a theory of consciousness. It
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily claim that everything is God, but rather that
Speaker 1: everything has some form of experience or awareness, no matter
Speaker 1: how faint. Where pantheism says the universe is divine, panpsychism
Speaker 1: says the universe is aware. One is a statement about holiness,
Speaker 1: the other is about mind. That said, these two often
Speaker 1: dance together. If the universe is suffused with awareness, it's
Speaker 1: not hard to see how traditions across time have equated
Speaker 1: that awareness, that awareness with the divine. So in our
Speaker 1: previous episodes talking about pantheism, we explored the sacredness of all. Tonight,
Speaker 1: panpsychism lets us explore the experience of the all, not
Speaker 1: as a distant God, but as a consciousness itself, flowing
Speaker 1: through every part of reality.
Speaker 3: I wonder if, too, if because they're so closely relatable.
Speaker 3: If that is another reason why perhaps that we tend
Speaker 3: to seek for some higher power or something larger than ourselves,
Speaker 3: something that was pre existing.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: If you're talking about the pantheism and you want to
Speaker 3: say that everything is God, let's just say there's that
Speaker 3: higher power, there's that spark that that we have because
Speaker 3: of that. And if it's the the panpsychism, then it's
Speaker 3: this larger thing such as consciousness itself, that has existed
Speaker 3: before us, that is bigger and more vast and more
Speaker 3: infinite than we are, and so that that gives us
Speaker 3: this sense of almost always sensing that that presence of
Speaker 3: whatever that is, if you want to look at it
Speaker 3: spiritually or whatever, like, I feel like that's that explains
Speaker 3: some of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would definitely say so. And if you think
Speaker 1: about it, so the like pantheism says that everything is God,
Speaker 1: everything is one, everything is God, everything is sourced, everything
Speaker 1: is universe, everything is one thing, right, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: I don't have any problem with that. But it's almost
Speaker 1: a divine paradox in that sense, not that there's anything
Speaker 1: wrong with paradoxes. I think this whole reality is a
Speaker 1: fucking paradox, right. But you know it's like if everything
Speaker 1: is God, then the paradox would be that nothing exists
Speaker 1: outside of God. So to call yourself God, you know,
Speaker 1: where's the separation at? You know exactly?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I just like wanted to mention as far
Speaker 3: as the whole consciousness thing. You know, there's there's a
Speaker 3: reason why we've had experiences. Man, Like just the other night,
Speaker 3: I had this experience where you know, my eyes are shut, man,
Speaker 3: and I'm so relaxed. All of a sudden, I see
Speaker 3: like eyeballs and things. I mean, I'm not saying that
Speaker 3: that's what consciousness looks like, but that is what my
Speaker 3: brain determined that that's what that was, you know, like
Speaker 3: the imagery with in that that ether along with it,
Speaker 3: and I'm just observing observance. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's very strange. Oh yeah, you're the dream something. I
Speaker 3: was thinking about the dreamer and the dream.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, dude, such a trip. Yeah, So why materialism
Speaker 1: falls short? So if you're somebody that believes that materialism
Speaker 1: is first and then consciousness came after, this is where
Speaker 1: it may not be. So materialism, the idea that matter
Speaker 1: is all that there is has been the dominant worldview
Speaker 1: for centuries. It tells us that that consciousness is an
Speaker 1: emergent property of matter, something that appears once neurons start
Speaker 1: firing in complex enough ways. But here's the problem. No
Speaker 1: one has ever explained how lifeless matter suddenly becomes aware.
Speaker 1: This is what philosopher David Chalmers famously called the hard
Speaker 1: problem of consciousness. Science can measure brain activity and tell
Speaker 1: you what happens when you feel fear, joy, or love,
Speaker 1: but it can't explain why those electrical patterns feel like
Speaker 1: anything at all from the inside. Why should matter, when
Speaker 1: organized a certain way, suddenly light up with the experience
Speaker 1: of red, or the taste of chocolate or the ache
Speaker 1: of heartbreak. Materialism leaves us with a giant gap in
Speaker 1: the story. Panpsychism avoids this problem entirely by cutting out
Speaker 1: the quote unquote magical leap. Instead of saying consciousness emerges
Speaker 1: from dead matter, it says matter was never dead to
Speaker 1: begin with. Consciousness was always there, just waiting to be
Speaker 1: organized into more and more complex forms. This doesn't just
Speaker 1: solve the hard problem, it turns it inside out. So
Speaker 1: that's pretty cool, Yeah, dude, and I think that, to
Speaker 1: be honest, dude, I think that a materialist is you
Speaker 1: would have to closely associate that with an atheist, right, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know. And you know it's because some people will say,
Speaker 1: and I listened to a lot of atheists. I actually
Speaker 1: enjoy listening to atheists speak a lot of the time. Actually,
Speaker 1: the one that you pointed me in the direction of
Speaker 1: on TikTok or YouTube whatever, it was, Yeah, very intelligent people,
Speaker 1: I mean, because I think the guy that you referred
Speaker 1: me to, he was like an ex pastor or an
Speaker 1: ex priest or something.
Speaker 3: He was definitely within He was a Christian for like
Speaker 3: twenty years, you know, and then he went into ministerry
Speaker 3: what is it called, but they go to the school
Speaker 3: or ministry school, ministry school and all this, and at
Speaker 3: that time he was already starting to like deconstruct and
Speaker 3: like he really started to look at the and getting
Speaker 3: he learned Hebrew and all of the everything he needed
Speaker 3: to know. And Dude, by the time he got done
Speaker 3: with that, he was full on like atheist. He could
Speaker 3: just see it for what it was, you know. And
Speaker 3: and there's nothing wrong with being an atheist. It's basically
Speaker 3: just looking at the hard evidence, and if there's no
Speaker 3: evidence for something, then they are not inclined to believe
Speaker 3: in that. And that's totally fine, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I think we believe in things that we don't don't
Speaker 3: have hard evidence for. But it's that's a choice, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Or like, if you want to
Speaker 3: allow your mind to entertain certain things in order to
Speaker 3: amplify yourself in some sort of way, whether it be
Speaker 3: confidence or or whatever. You know, we go into all
Speaker 3: the different different things, but it's it's all.
Speaker 1: Good, you know, Yeah, it is. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I to be honest, I kind of feel
Speaker 1: bad for atheists, you know, because now it's like there's
Speaker 1: nothing to live for. Although they'll say they'll disagree with that,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not trying to sit here and
Speaker 1: say that we live to basically appease God so that
Speaker 1: hopefully reserves a seat for us in heaven. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that. What I'm saying is is that if you
Speaker 1: think that once you die the lights completely go out,
Speaker 1: then what's the point.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can understand, you know, having that thought
Speaker 3: and thinking that there's nothing else after this, If nothing else.
Speaker 3: For me, how I would look at that if I
Speaker 3: was completely atheist, was that is that I only got
Speaker 3: one shot, you know what I mean, So let's make
Speaker 3: the best of this go round because I'm not coming
Speaker 3: back after this. There's nothing after this, so I've let's
Speaker 3: just make the best.
Speaker 1: Out of this, right.
Speaker 3: But what I wouldn't necessarily say that there's nothing to
Speaker 3: live for. But but my point is is that, like
Speaker 3: why for experience? I mean, you're going to want to
Speaker 3: experience the best thing possible, even though you're not looking
Speaker 3: at yourself as a divine being, you know what I'm saying, Like,
Speaker 3: you're still going to want to have the best experience
Speaker 3: or what you determine as good as opposed to bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you don't get to take that experience with
Speaker 1: you if there's if the if the lights are out
Speaker 1: and you cease to exist, what's the point of an experience?
Speaker 3: You have no choice. You're here, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It wasn't like you in that framework. You didn't decide
Speaker 3: to be here, and so you're here. These are the
Speaker 3: cards you're given. And so I mean that's kind of
Speaker 3: where I used to be, you know, And just like
Speaker 3: this whole finite mentality. But that could I can understand,
Speaker 3: you know, someone becoming a little more uh fuck nihilist. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I can understand. And I think I did experience some
Speaker 3: of that, you know, and then I started exploring other
Speaker 3: things or whatever.
Speaker 1: But some people are just.
Speaker 3: Totally comfortable with that, and you know, it's I don't
Speaker 3: see it as something that you know, you don't have anything.
Speaker 1: To live for, though I've never I never viewed it
Speaker 1: that way. I don't think I almost I don't like
Speaker 1: it's a it's a form of trying to take control whenever.
Speaker 1: You know, what we always kind of preach is let
Speaker 1: go and surrender, right because if you are one hundred
Speaker 1: percent certain that there's nothing after this, now you have
Speaker 1: complete control over your life. Not to say that we
Speaker 1: don't have majority control over our lives. I mean we
Speaker 1: definitely do, We absolutely do. But you don't need to.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you know what, maybe we'll
Speaker 1: get an atheist on the show one day, and let's
Speaker 1: just I want to hear them out.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just another lens, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 3: And so you're gonna get a totally different experience from it.
Speaker 3: But you're not going to know too much different. I
Speaker 3: mean that one guy came from Christianity, so I mean
Speaker 3: obviously he has definitely contrast. So yeah, maybe we can
Speaker 3: get somebody somebody like that that has totally deconstructed and
Speaker 3: became atheist.
Speaker 1: That'd be interesting. And I will say, like the majority
Speaker 1: of people that say that they're atheist, I think they're
Speaker 1: actually agnostic. Like they're open, they're opened for there being something.
Speaker 1: It's just that they haven't found, you know, something that
Speaker 1: they can agree upon as to what it actually is.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're on a search ourselves, you know, trying
Speaker 3: to understand the most foundational understanding of existence and why
Speaker 3: we're here in all of that, and so it's it's
Speaker 3: just a big mystery, dude. And some people are okay
Speaker 3: with not knowing, and that's fine too, that's okay.
Speaker 1: So all right, let's continue on the on the route here.
Speaker 1: So historical roots of panpsychism. Even though panpsychism feels radical today,
Speaker 1: it's actually one of the oldest ideas in human thought. Plato,
Speaker 1: for instance, shout out spoke of a world soul, a
Speaker 1: living principle animating the cosmos itself. The Stoics believe in
Speaker 1: a divine fire or logos pervading everything. In India, the
Speaker 1: Vedantic traditions taught that Atman, which is the self, and Brahmin,
Speaker 1: which is the universal consciousness, are one and the same.
Speaker 1: During the Enlightenment period, philosophers like Spinoza and Leibniz, I
Speaker 1: think it's how you say it, argued for versions of
Speaker 1: panpsychism too. Spinoza saw the universe as one substance, with
Speaker 1: both with both physical and mental aspects, meaning consciousness and
Speaker 1: matter are two sides of the same coin. Leibniz imagined
Speaker 1: reality made up of tiny units of awareness he called monads.
Speaker 1: Even William James, the father of American psychology, flirted with
Speaker 1: the idea that consciousness pervades all matter. Fast forward to today,
Speaker 1: and modern philosophers like Galen Strawsen and Philip Goff are
Speaker 1: reviving panpsychism as a serious contender in the philosophy of mind.
Speaker 1: What was once dismissed as mystical is now being reconsidered
Speaker 1: as a real explanation for the hardest questions science has
Speaker 1: ever faced. Let's go maybe, yeah, man, I love it.
Speaker 1: I love when people are more open minded about this
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, because well, yeah, it's one of those things.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, they say you can't prove or
Speaker 1: disprove the the matrix or the simulation, yeah God or yeah,
Speaker 1: same thing right right right, It's like and then God
Speaker 1: eventually gets reduced to the God of the gaps, like
Speaker 1: everything that science can't prove while there's God, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which then just pushes the argument further because then
Speaker 3: where did God come from? And like, well, he's just
Speaker 3: always been But then again, the universe could have just
Speaker 3: always been right same.
Speaker 1: Well, and this is this, this is one of the
Speaker 1: things that we've been trying to convey a little bit,
Speaker 1: is that whether we're looking into magic or witchcraft, they're
Speaker 1: druidism or you know, pantheism or name your thing, whatever,
Speaker 1: we've covered right me and you we I feel like
Speaker 1: we've always tried to find all right, but what's really happening?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, you know, sage is cool,
Speaker 1: and writing on bay leafs that's cool, and you know
Speaker 1: magic incantations and affirmations and you know, making a pentagram
Speaker 1: and the salt around your house. What's what's the real
Speaker 1: shit that's actually going down going going on in reality?
Speaker 1: Because this is just animated versions of the thing, you know,
Speaker 1: expressing itself in this way. But what actually is it? Right,
Speaker 1: And what we found is is that at the very
Speaker 1: very very bare minimum, it's all just intention like for
Speaker 1: the very most part. And and and intention is only
Speaker 1: powerfold or powered powered up through awareness itself. And now
Speaker 1: you can't have awareness or intention without consciousness, like that
Speaker 1: map problem just doesn't work without it, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I find it very very interesting
Speaker 3: that we've we have learned so much about the human
Speaker 3: mind and its potential through looking.
Speaker 1: At magic, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Like you never would I don't think I would have
Speaker 3: guessed that that would have been a path to go
Speaker 3: to figure out how the mind works and how your
Speaker 3: intention and energy and time can affect your reality so much,
Speaker 3: you know. But by looking at magic and looking at
Speaker 3: the tools that they use and then applying that to
Speaker 3: what's happening with the mind. When you're doing that, it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: and then everything just starts to make so much more sense,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: And you can't do any of that without consciousness one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. So and like, and a lot of magic
Speaker 1: really does get a bad rep magic, witchcraft, any form
Speaker 1: of paganism does get a majorly bad rep because there
Speaker 1: are always the sour apples, there's always the turds in
Speaker 1: the punch bowl. Whenever you say magic and witchcraft, most
Speaker 1: people instantly think bang Aleister Crowley, right, or they think
Speaker 1: bang Marina Bramovich where they think bang like you know
Speaker 1: John d or you know some of the most despicable people.
Speaker 1: And and and that's not a really great representation of it,
Speaker 1: but that's the light that gets shined on it by
Speaker 1: the non believers. No no, no, no, no, right, And it's
Speaker 1: like that's the light that really gets shined on it.
Speaker 1: And I would say that the majority of like successful
Speaker 1: magicians or witches or pagans in general, if we're using
Speaker 1: their term, most of them you're never going to hear
Speaker 1: about because you know, the wizards and sages and mages
Speaker 1: and you know, enlightened individuals, they weren't going around and
Speaker 1: bragging about the magical things that they were able to accomplish, right,
Speaker 1: Because if it's all about the mind, and you're you know,
Speaker 1: because bragging about something is kind of a lower form
Speaker 1: of consciousness, you would say purpose, right, And that's that's
Speaker 1: the opposite, Like you want to get out of that
Speaker 1: form of self out of that form of ego. The
Speaker 1: ego needs, you know, pats on the back and told
Speaker 1: that you're doing a good job. The ego needs like
Speaker 1: you're doing right now, let me follow you. The soul
Speaker 1: doesn't need that. And most people who are accomplished in
Speaker 1: that era, I mean, I would suggest that you know,
Speaker 1: you just don't fucking need you know, recognition, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that's what happens.
Speaker 3: When you get to a certain area or a certain
Speaker 3: time within your journey, you start to understand things a
Speaker 3: little differently, and the last thing you want to do is.
Speaker 1: To brag about what you're doing.
Speaker 3: You keep things to yourself when it's something for you,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because it's not going to
Speaker 3: help if you're telling somebody else your plan, you know,
Speaker 3: like or to have expensive possessions or to a lot
Speaker 3: of those things kind of get pushed aside because you
Speaker 3: understand that that's not important anymore.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: And I remember we were early on, you know, we
Speaker 3: were going into people that were able to levitate in
Speaker 3: all of this, and it's like, now, I'm thinking being
Speaker 3: able to levitate would be the least of what our
Speaker 3: abilities could be if we really applied everything the way
Speaker 3: you're supposed to.
Speaker 1: And that's what the guru say. Don't don't like become
Speaker 1: enamored with the cities that you accomplish on your way
Speaker 1: to enlightenment slows you down. It's yeah, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a fucking oh, it's a deterrent or a roadblock. Yeah, basically, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's not the main focus. So anyway, all right,
Speaker 1: let's keep on going a little bit farther because we
Speaker 1: do got a nice long, thick show with two seas today.
Speaker 1: So consciousness PREMI uh, did I already read that consciousness?
Speaker 1: I forgot where even where we were? Okay, no, I
Speaker 1: didn't read this part. Consciousness precedes matter. So here's the big,
Speaker 1: the big flip that panpsychism offers. Instead of matter producing mind,
Speaker 1: it suggests mind produces matter. In other words, consciousness is
Speaker 1: not an afterthought of the physical universe. It is the
Speaker 1: foundation upon which the physical rests. The body and mind
Speaker 1: are like instruments, but consciousness is the musician. Without the musician,
Speaker 1: the the instruments make no sound. This perspective actually lines
Speaker 1: up with some of the strangest finding in modern findings
Speaker 1: in modern physics. In quantum mechanics, the role of the
Speaker 1: observer can't be ignored. Experiments like the double slit test
Speaker 1: show that the act of observation changes the outcome. It's
Speaker 1: a fact. It's almost as if the universe refuses to
Speaker 1: take shape until awareness engages with it. That makes much
Speaker 1: more sense if consciousness is primary, not secondary. So when
Speaker 1: you really sit with this, the entire materialist worldview begins
Speaker 1: to unravel. It's not that brain creates awareness, it's that
Speaker 1: awareness crystallizes into brains and bodies so that it can
Speaker 1: play in the physical world. Consciousness comes first, matter comes second.
Speaker 1: Love it, Love it, And it does make a lot
Speaker 1: of sense if you really think about it. Like and
Speaker 1: I always like to like, whenever I'm trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what reality is, I just kind of base it
Speaker 1: off of a lot of my own personal experiences, as
Speaker 1: most people probably do. Right. And I know damn well
Speaker 1: that whenever I go into a dream, that is my
Speaker 1: mind doing what my mind is going to do. Every
Speaker 1: single character, every single tree, every single car, every single conversation,
Speaker 1: every single magical thing or nightmare or whatever happens, it
Speaker 1: is all written by the author of my mind. Right,
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, it's highly likely that
Speaker 1: it's no different from reality.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. And this is the thing that we've been
Speaker 3: trying to say for a very long time. You know,
Speaker 3: your thoughts and your the way that you look at
Speaker 3: reality literally shapes how you how you perceive it, you know.
Speaker 3: And how is it that you can go into a
Speaker 3: dream and take it on as complete reality? Either there's
Speaker 3: there's no there's no resistance to this thing. Oh, it's
Speaker 3: just a dream while you're in it. While you're in it,
Speaker 3: this is this is reality, you know. And so when
Speaker 3: you wake up from that, and because an author, like
Speaker 3: you said, within your mind created that dream, you know,
Speaker 3: so why can't you do that when you're awake?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? Like that that makes total
Speaker 1: sense to me. Yeah, I just.
Speaker 3: Recently had it. I just recently had a I think
Speaker 3: it was about two weeks ago. I recently had a
Speaker 3: sleep prolysis type of thing happened, and I was it
Speaker 3: was it was very interesting because I I felt like
Speaker 3: I was awake, and I like rolled over to try
Speaker 3: to wake my wife up, and I like shimmed my
Speaker 3: way over there like enough to where like my head
Speaker 3: was like laying on her and I can feel the blanket,
Speaker 3: the specific blanket that she uses, you know, and I
Speaker 3: was like nudging her and I could. I for sure
Speaker 3: thought that this was really happening, and I tried to
Speaker 3: wake her up, and then she said, oh, someone's here,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, it like knocked me out
Speaker 3: of that, and I got up out of bed and
Speaker 3: I went out my my bedroom door, and I looked
Speaker 3: down the hallway and then I asked her.
Speaker 1: I was like, who did you say was here?
Speaker 3: And then I like, for some reason, instead of turning
Speaker 3: around and walking back into the room, I like walked
Speaker 3: backwards back into the room because maybe I was scared.
Speaker 3: I don't know what the situation was with that. And
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden boom, I'm laying in the
Speaker 3: spot that I started in, facing away from her at
Speaker 3: that time, Like, but I can tell you that I
Speaker 3: sure like if you would have asked me in that dream,
Speaker 3: hey man, we're gonna record tomorrow, is this reality? I'd
Speaker 3: been like, yeah, for sure, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: Why are you asking me that? Like it felt so real.
Speaker 3: I've never had an experience like that before, and so
Speaker 3: what what's going on there?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: What? I mean, like the author of my mind was
Speaker 1: just like, what why is that? Why do we have
Speaker 1: these experiences?
Speaker 3: If consciousness has no role in any of it, people
Speaker 3: just overlook the dream aspect of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, And that's and that's the thing is that
Speaker 1: you know, we as humans, you know, for specifically talking
Speaker 1: about our meat suit, we have grown to not need
Speaker 1: certain organs anymore. We just don't use them, you know.
Speaker 1: The appendix, I believe is something that they say that
Speaker 1: give it another couple of hundred years, Like we're not
Speaker 1: even gonna be born with them anymore, right because there's
Speaker 1: just not really a whole need for them. And and
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's other things that I can't think
Speaker 1: of right now, But the point is is that whenever
Speaker 1: there's not a need for something, you know, evolution or
Speaker 1: reality or the universe says, all right, well, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to keep on putting energy into something that you're
Speaker 1: not going to use, you know. That's that's kind of
Speaker 1: the whole argument behind like the Gray Aliens, Right, Like
Speaker 1: the Gray Aliens became so technologically advanced that they didn't
Speaker 1: have a use for a mouth anymore. They didn't have
Speaker 1: a use for you know, sexual organs or anything like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, their body became so slender and frill and
Speaker 1: you know, it was just like a fucking Barbie doll
Speaker 1: the way it was, like how slim it was, and
Speaker 1: they grew to not need it anymore. Now it was
Speaker 1: definitely to their detriment. Otherwise they wouldn't have tried to
Speaker 1: come back. And you know, if you believe that whole story,
Speaker 1: But the point is is that, you know, if consciousness
Speaker 1: is merely secondary, and if consciousness, if we didn't need consciousness,
Speaker 1: or we didn't need awareness, and we were only put
Speaker 1: here just to experience reality, physical reality, and nothing else,
Speaker 1: you would have no need for internal conversation. You'd have
Speaker 1: no need for heightened or lowered awareness, you would have
Speaker 1: no need for dreams, you'd have no need for you know,
Speaker 1: things that you may experience on a psychedelic trip. Why
Speaker 1: would you need it? You don't need it anymore? Like
Speaker 1: why do we have certain receptors within our brain that
Speaker 1: speak to d MT and THC, amongst other things. Why
Speaker 1: why are those receptors? Like how did we evolve to
Speaker 1: get there?
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying right right? And why does
Speaker 3: consciousness feel the need to persist when you're when you're asleep.
Speaker 3: You know, does the brain really need some sort of
Speaker 3: entertainment or some type of stimulus to get through the night?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, I don't see why
Speaker 1: that is. I mean, yeah, think about the activity and
Speaker 1: your car for example. You know, whenever your car is
Speaker 1: turn you know, you hear the engine, you hear all
Speaker 1: the parts they're going, and you know the belts are spinning,
Speaker 1: and the smoke from the gasoline is being produced out
Speaker 1: of the exhaust and all these other things. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: it feels alive, it feels awesome. But you turn, you
Speaker 1: take that key out, It's like a light switch went off.
Speaker 1: There's nothing else going on inside of that car. And
Speaker 1: why do you need it. You don't need that car
Speaker 1: to be thinking anything or doing anything whenever it's not running.
Speaker 1: The same thing goes for the human body. Why do
Speaker 1: we need to dream? Why does our mind keep on
Speaker 1: going whenever, you know, the conscious mind fades into the darkness.
Speaker 1: It's like there has to be something there.
Speaker 3: And nobody's talking about dreaming evolving away at some point,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like that that seems to
Speaker 3: be a thing that will always be forever going forward.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, So this is actually a really cool
Speaker 1: analogy we're going to talk about. It's called the whirlpool analogy.
Speaker 1: You ever heard of it before? No, So one of
Speaker 1: the clearest ways to picture this is with the image
Speaker 1: of a river. Imagine an infinite river of flowing water,
Speaker 1: moving without beginning or end. That river is universal consciousness, boundless, eternal,
Speaker 1: and always in motion. Now within that river, whirlpoles appear.
Speaker 1: Each world pole is a local gathering of water into
Speaker 1: a recognizable shape. That whirlpole is you or me, a
Speaker 1: temporary individual swirling with a sense of separateness from the outside.
Speaker 1: It looks distinct, but it's never really cut off from
Speaker 1: the river. It's made of the same water, just spinning
Speaker 1: in its own form. And here's the key. When the
Speaker 1: whirlpool dissolves back into the river, nothing is lost. The
Speaker 1: water remains flowing onward. That's what happens at death. The
Speaker 1: form fades, but the essence, the consciousness, was always the
Speaker 1: river to begin with. Mmmm, that's cool, it's pretty Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like the wave, you know, the wave of the whirlpoole.
Speaker 1: Same thing. It looks like it's separate from the hole,
Speaker 1: but eventually it dissolves back into the into the totality
Speaker 1: of all that, all that is within that river, that ocean,
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Right, And it's not like whenever
Speaker 1: the wave goes down, that like there's now five gallons less.
Speaker 3: Of water, one less wave, right right, It's just a
Speaker 3: temporary excitation of the hole you know that is in
Speaker 3: fact identifiable as a wave crashing or what have you.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, So now we're going to get into everyday
Speaker 1: evidence of consciousness primacy. Oh, let's go, baby, skeptics say.
Speaker 1: Skeptics may say, Okay, nice metaphor, but where's the evidence. Well,
Speaker 1: let's look at some of the cracks in the materialists story.
Speaker 1: For instance, near death experiences. People who are clinically dead,
Speaker 1: no heartbeat, no measurable brain activity, still report vivid awareness.
Speaker 1: They describe floating above their bodies, seeing doctors work on them,
Speaker 1: even recalling details that can later be verified. If the
Speaker 1: brain creates consciousness, how is that possible? Then there are
Speaker 1: dreams every night when you slip into a world created
Speaker 1: entirely by your mind, with sights and sounds and emotions
Speaker 1: and even other characters who seem real in the moment
Speaker 1: you wake up. And it vanishes, but the experience was undeniable.
Speaker 1: Mystical visions and psychedelic journeys at another layer, often pulling
Speaker 1: back the curtain and revealing realities that feel more real
Speaker 1: than waking life. As many people have said, panpsychism gives
Speaker 1: these phenomena a place in the framework. Instead of being
Speaker 1: written off as hallucinations or malfunctions, they can be seen
Speaker 1: as moments where consciousness shows its independence from the body.
Speaker 1: They are little reminders that awareness doesn't rely on neurons alone,
Speaker 1: that the mind is more than the machine.
Speaker 3: And you know, I know that some will argue as
Speaker 3: far as trying to argue against the near death experiences
Speaker 3: because they're like, oh, well, we had this experiment where
Speaker 3: like twenty hospitals they took this, they took this experiment
Speaker 3: on and they put like note cards and things up
Speaker 3: on top of the And I've heard people say this,
Speaker 3: and it's trying to just like, well, see you look
Speaker 3: at this isn't something that people are actually experiencing, because
Speaker 3: nobody has ever had the experience and come back and said,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, there is in fact a note card and
Speaker 3: it says.
Speaker 1: This or what have you. But you know, I think
Speaker 1: the only thing I can say to that is forethought.
Speaker 1: If yes, first like.
Speaker 3: You're not telling the people that, Okay, let us know
Speaker 3: what's up there. We put something up there, but you know,
Speaker 3: just let us know what you see. But I feel
Speaker 3: like it's more like if there was something up there,
Speaker 3: they're also seeing so much of other stuff because now
Speaker 3: there their limitation, which would be the body is not
Speaker 3: holding them down anymore. And so I feel like, if
Speaker 3: you're up there, you're I mean, David Dischfield saw a
Speaker 3: waterfall of stars and everything else, and so who's to
Speaker 3: say that along with seeing their body below, they're not
Speaker 3: seeing so many other things. And a note card on
Speaker 3: a shelf is not something you would be trying to
Speaker 3: observe at that point, now.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's just silly to me,
Speaker 1: not at all. And I feel like that just it
Speaker 1: just takes so much forethought. First of all, you have
Speaker 1: to have the doctor say, well, it's a good chance,
Speaker 1: so this motherfucker's going to die, so let me put
Speaker 1: a note card and let's see if he'll be able
Speaker 1: to jump out of his body and read this message.
Speaker 1: The thing is is that that is a that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of a bad form, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like that's done in a bad flavor, Like you're not
Speaker 1: going to sit here and say you're not going to
Speaker 1: sit here and say, like I give up on my
Speaker 1: patient and I think that he's going to die, so
Speaker 1: let me write this card and see if he can
Speaker 1: have an out of body experience.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I mean to be fair, I don't think
Speaker 3: that that's how they were doing it, but but yeah,
Speaker 3: and in that saying it that way, because I guess
Speaker 3: the card and everything is it's just always there. So
Speaker 3: just in case they do lose somebody, when they come back,
Speaker 3: they can ask them some questions and depending on how
Speaker 3: they fare, can determine whether or not they actually went
Speaker 3: out of body. And most of the time they can't
Speaker 3: tell anybody the experience that they saw something up there,
Speaker 3: even if they said I definitely went out of body,
Speaker 3: they can't tell anybody what's on that card. But like
Speaker 3: I said, I feel like that's the last thing you're
Speaker 3: going to be trying to look at.
Speaker 1: But you know what, like you don't even need to
Speaker 1: have that because there are numerous examples of people saying
Speaker 1: like they're unconscious, they're either dead or they're on their
Speaker 1: way out and there is no brain activity going on.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're having some crazy surgery going on to where
Speaker 1: they you know, the anesthesia is weighing in deep or
Speaker 1: something like that, and they shouldn't have any form of
Speaker 1: consciousness whatsoever. And I just got done. It was a
Speaker 1: couple of days ago. I was listening to this person
Speaker 1: and they were saying that they got shot in the
Speaker 1: fucking head with a gun, right, and the bullet like
Speaker 1: it was, it was nearly fatal, and I guess it
Speaker 1: was fatal for like a couple of minutes until she
Speaker 1: was able to come back, right. So she eventually comes back,
Speaker 1: but she goes, she goes, I saw something in there
Speaker 1: that the doctors believe I shouldn't have seen. So there
Speaker 1: was a doctor, maybe two doctors, and a couple of
Speaker 1: nurses and she goes. I specifically remember the doctor yelling
Speaker 1: at the nurse because she fucked up somehow one way
Speaker 1: or another, right, and she goes, you know, she relayed
Speaker 1: that back to the doctor, I guess, and the doctor
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I can't talk about that because she
Speaker 1: went back, like a couple of weeks later, when she
Speaker 1: was all healed up and released from the hospital, and everything.
Speaker 1: She went back a little while later to go check
Speaker 1: and see, like, am I just tripping right now? Or
Speaker 1: did I see that? You know, like, did I see
Speaker 1: that nurse mess up? And so she goes back and
Speaker 1: she goes, yeah, I remember there was this one nurse.
Speaker 1: I didn't get her name, but you know, she describes
Speaker 1: her really well and to where you know who she's
Speaker 1: talking about, right, And the person that's working at the
Speaker 1: hospital goes, yeah, the person doesn't work here anymore. As
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they got fired that night, right,
Speaker 1: And so the woman's like, oh, so that's why my
Speaker 1: brain's a little off, you know, just making a fun
Speaker 1: joke out of it, like this girl messed up. She
Speaker 1: got fired. I mean, she messed up so bad that
Speaker 1: she end up getting fired. And here I am just
Speaker 1: walking the streets. And so she goes and so she
Speaker 1: I believe she ends up having a conversation with the
Speaker 1: doctor and the doctor's like, yeah, or she heard something
Speaker 1: through the grapevine or something like that and found out
Speaker 1: that that nurse had messed up. Yes, that doctor was
Speaker 1: yelling at that nurse while she was supposed to be unconscious.
Speaker 1: More of the story is is that she was able
Speaker 1: to see something, she was able to witness something she
Speaker 1: was there for something that she shouldn't have been there for, right, right.
Speaker 3: And the reason for that not being good evidence of
Speaker 3: the out of body experience being real is because that
Speaker 3: would have exposed the hospital itself. Of course they're going
Speaker 3: to protect, you know, if if they did something like
Speaker 3: in a malpracticed type of situation, they're not going to
Speaker 3: be like, oh, yeah, we messed up, because for all
Speaker 3: they know, this person that did see them out of
Speaker 3: body as trying to build a case for some sort
Speaker 3: of malpractice suit and you know what I'm saying. But
Speaker 3: in the case of the experimental ones where they're actually
Speaker 3: trying to gather that proof, like, yeah, it just falls
Speaker 3: apart because, like I said, you're not gonna be looking
Speaker 3: for that type of thing, you know, and.
Speaker 1: That can't be explained away. But it happens like a
Speaker 1: lot more than people are comfortable to admit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people going out of body and going to a
Speaker 3: separate floor where their family members are having a conversation
Speaker 3: and listening to the conversation and then after the fact
Speaker 3: telling them, yeah, I was there, I heard you guys
Speaker 3: talking about this and that, and they're just like blown away.
Speaker 3: But like that that's not going to count as evidence
Speaker 3: because it wasn't set up and it wasn't scientifically you know,
Speaker 3: ran through in that way. It's just an experienced thing
Speaker 3: that will just be an experience and that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the thing is is that you know, there's actually,
Speaker 1: and I believe we mentioned this before, but there are
Speaker 1: venerated saints, like through the Catholic Church or wherever they
Speaker 1: become venerated because of their great works whenever they were alive,
Speaker 1: and so they become saintized or whatever the term is, right,
Speaker 1: just venerated saints. And there are venerated saints who like
Speaker 1: there is documentation of some of these motherfuckers going out
Speaker 1: of body and meeting other people in places that like
Speaker 1: they didn't bring their body with like talking about like
Speaker 1: these I can't remember the name of them, but there's
Speaker 1: this one saint that had this like this crazy out
Speaker 1: of body experience. And it's known that this saint never
Speaker 1: left like his bedroom or something like he always stayed
Speaker 1: in one room. I don't know if he was paralyzed
Speaker 1: or what, but like for some reason always stayed in
Speaker 1: one room. Right, Yet there are there was a pilot
Speaker 1: that said that that saint came and visited him, you know,
Speaker 1: as he was flying a jet. There was another person
Speaker 1: that came and said, yeah, that person actually came and
Speaker 1: visited me last night too. It was really strange, like
Speaker 1: I thought that they never come out of their cave
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. And so the point is is
Speaker 1: that it's usually whenever people admit that it's a real
Speaker 1: thing that's going on, well that's just divine, that's God's
Speaker 1: and I'm not even here to disagree with that. I mean,
Speaker 1: if we are all God, or we are all one thing,
Speaker 1: or we are all one consciousness, then yes, you're right,
Speaker 1: you know, but it's not limited to veneration, right, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: So all right, now we're going to get to the
Speaker 1: next part, which is the integrated information science itself is
Speaker 1: beginning to brush against panpsychism, even if it doesn't call
Speaker 1: it that. One of the leading theories of consciousness in
Speaker 1: neuroscience today is called integrated information theory or IT. It
Speaker 1: suggests that consciousness arises wherever information is both highly differentiated
Speaker 1: and highly unified. In other words, a system that integrates
Speaker 1: lots of information into one whole, like the human brain,
Speaker 1: produces a rich conscious experience. But here's where it gets interesting.
Speaker 1: Integrated information theory doesn't say that this integration only happens
Speaker 1: in humans. Even a simple circuit, if it has the
Speaker 1: right structure, could carry a tiny spark of awareness. The
Speaker 1: more integrated the system, the brighter the spark. The idea
Speaker 1: dovetails perfectly with panpsychism because it implies that consciousness is
Speaker 1: not an on or off switch, but a spectrum present
Speaker 1: throughout nature. What this means is that the line between
Speaker 1: alive and not alive becomes blurry. Consciousness may be as
Speaker 1: fundamental as gravity or magnetism, present everywhere, showing up in
Speaker 1: stronger or weaker forms depending on the system. It suggests
Speaker 1: that we live in a universe that is not dead
Speaker 1: and mechanical, but alive and aware at every level. Fuck yeah, dude, it.
Speaker 3: Has to be true, Yeah, dude, Yeah, Like it would
Speaker 3: be preferable, man if we do go on somewhere after this,
Speaker 3: you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, I mean I want to keep
Speaker 1: going right, you know, I'm enjoying.
Speaker 3: This life exactly. To what form would you take? You know,
Speaker 3: like who knows, you know, But I mean you can
Speaker 3: end up being a tree or you know, and at
Speaker 3: that point your ability to experience consciousness would just be
Speaker 3: like at a slower rate or something like that, probably know.
Speaker 1: And the point is is, like, you know, like there
Speaker 1: has to be like if you think about it, so,
Speaker 1: I know, some people, Jacob specifically likes to say that
Speaker 1: whenever the Big Bang happened, that can be compared to
Speaker 1: was that possibly whenever God spoke life into existence, you know,
Speaker 1: let there be light kind of situation, was that when
Speaker 1: that very moment happened, that there's just a scientific way
Speaker 1: of proving what spiritually happened, right right, And that's that's
Speaker 1: an argument. And I mean, I don't I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: this should happened a long as time ago. I wasn't there,
Speaker 1: you know. But if we are to just look at
Speaker 1: it for what it is, if God spoke something into existence,
Speaker 1: are we now saying that God only speaks material reality
Speaker 1: or does wouldn't it make more sense that if God
Speaker 1: spoke something and you know, like made something out of
Speaker 1: just his voice, that there would be essentially like maybe
Speaker 1: his consciousness that was the the the electricity that created
Speaker 1: everything and crystallized it and made it look like it
Speaker 1: was physical. But it would have to stem from something
Speaker 1: conscious is. My point is that consciousness has to proceed
Speaker 1: material reality if life was spoken into existence, right that?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, that's why my mind works
Speaker 1: with it anyway. Yeah, So why you experience you and
Speaker 1: not me? Okay, all right, let's go. This is one
Speaker 1: of the deepest puzzles. If consciousness is truly everywhere, why
Speaker 1: do you only experience yourself and not everyone one else?
Speaker 1: Why do I feel like me trap behind my eyes
Speaker 1: instead of also feeling like you, or the tree outside
Speaker 1: or the stars in the sky. Panpsychism offers a fascinating
Speaker 1: way to look at this. The answer lies in patterns
Speaker 1: of integration. Your brain integrates information into one unified stream.
Speaker 1: That integrated stream is your perspective. My brain does the
Speaker 1: same for me. The river of consciousness is universal, but
Speaker 1: each whirlpool, each integrated system becomes its own window of experience.
Speaker 1: Window of experience. From inside the whirlpool, you only see
Speaker 1: from your angle, not from all at once. Some mystical
Speaker 1: traditions even go further whenever they say that this boundary
Speaker 1: is real but also temporary. The sense of eye is
Speaker 1: a necessary mask so that the one can play as
Speaker 1: the many death or certain altered states may dissolve that boundary,
Speaker 1: showing you or showing that you and I were always one,
Speaker 1: just refracted into separate windows for a time. And think
Speaker 1: about this, dude. When people do have that near death
Speaker 1: experience and they said that they for a brief moment
Speaker 1: were on the other side of that veil or they
Speaker 1: were reconnected with the source, it was almost like they
Speaker 1: had so much information just almost like downloaded into them.
Speaker 1: They they knew everything.
Speaker 3: Then they come back and it's like impossible to even
Speaker 3: be able to explain that. But just that sensation of like, oh,
Speaker 3: I just knew so much, you know, that is the
Speaker 3: idea of whatever it is that's you, the little bit
Speaker 3: of consciousness that's inside of you, re emerging with the stream,
Speaker 3: if you will, you know what I'm saying, the infinite stream,
Speaker 3: and going, oh, that's what it all is. And this
Speaker 3: is just like a character that I'm embodying briefly.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, just as you were a different character
Speaker 1: in your dream, right, you know, like it just as
Speaker 1: your wife was different in your dream, your job was
Speaker 1: different in your dream, your kids were different in your dream.
Speaker 1: You instead of having like I have a boxer wiener dog.
Speaker 1: You had a husky, you know, and you looked at
Speaker 1: them like they were real family. Mm you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no denying it, dude, no denying it.
Speaker 3: I really like that explanation too, as far as like
Speaker 3: it's almost like consciousness is like this this foundational thing,
Speaker 3: you know, but you your mind and the the experiences
Speaker 3: you've had, and that that build up of the ego
Speaker 3: that you have and the shadow and everything else is
Speaker 3: is the thing that makes you feel like you. But
Speaker 3: when you go into a meditation, I would bet you
Speaker 3: and I both feel pretty much the same when we
Speaker 3: were experiencing only consciousness.
Speaker 1: Stillness, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the feeling, the the euphoricism, if that's a word. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that thing that is underlying that's damn near silent,
Speaker 1: but not totally silent. It's a it's a the most
Speaker 1: the most peaceful feeling in the world. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And surely there's no way for us to be able
Speaker 3: to prove or experiment with that, to figure out somehow
Speaker 3: if we are in fact experiencing the exact same feeling.
Speaker 3: I mean, when it is when you are able to
Speaker 3: get to that complete just awareness, absence of the ego
Speaker 3: and all of that. But I would be willing to
Speaker 3: bet that it's the same for everybody. I mean, because
Speaker 3: we're all dipping into the same field.
Speaker 1: At that point. You're staying in the zone of about
Speaker 1: to fall asleep for fifteen to twenty minutes, and you're
Speaker 1: not going into this meditation like with the intention of
Speaker 1: falling asleep. So it's intentionally almost not falling asleep, is
Speaker 1: really if you think about it, and playing within that
Speaker 1: zone for some reason brings people absolute joy and absolute
Speaker 1: peace and absolute wholeness and absolute absolutely destroying the illusion
Speaker 1: of separate Like why is that a thing? Right?
Speaker 3: Well, because the consciousness itself would be like the most
Speaker 3: neutral thing, you know. The only thing that gives us
Speaker 3: that subjectivity of it is the like I said, the
Speaker 3: experiences we've had before with certain things. And so when
Speaker 3: you get into a meditation and you are observing that
Speaker 3: meditation through the most neutral thing foundationally that we have
Speaker 3: in existence, you are just that and there's no prejudice
Speaker 3: or or need for the vape or or you know, the.
Speaker 1: Addiction or anything like that. You're just that. I am that,
Speaker 1: I am no shit. Yeah, And it's interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: I've I've read a lot of the Bible and various
Speaker 1: other religious texts and everything, and you know, you see
Speaker 1: like these very silly statements where and then God said this.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think that's how that works, because
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, because operating within time I mean,
Speaker 1: or like as if the if. And this is just
Speaker 1: from my own perspective. I don't know if you agree
Speaker 1: with this, but like, if we were to be able
Speaker 1: to mesh with God or mesh with the all, or
Speaker 1: mesh with the universe, the most easily readily available place
Speaker 1: to do that is within meditation.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like that one comedian that said, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been to church a thousand times. I've done mushrooms maybe thirty.
Speaker 1: Which place do you think I talked to God the most?
Speaker 1: You know? It's like there's something about that stillness that
Speaker 1: is comforting. It is you know, you've been there before.
Speaker 1: It's where you've probably been the majority of your existence,
Speaker 1: and it's familiar, you know, and so that place it
Speaker 1: is comforting in silence. You can go there and I
Speaker 1: suppose you can ask, you know, some questions and get
Speaker 1: some verified answers or whatever. But I don't know if
Speaker 1: I've ever gone there and had God tell me that
Speaker 1: I should start sacrificing shit. No, not one time, dude.
Speaker 1: I've never went there and said that. I never. I
Speaker 1: never heard God say like, you need to take over
Speaker 1: this land because that's my land, right Like, that's where
Speaker 1: it gets a little bit delusional to me. M M
Speaker 1: with you. I agree with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never I've never been. I've never had any
Speaker 3: messages like that, not yet. Anyway, who knows, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe that's just how it works. Once you get deep,
Speaker 3: you're still young, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, test the spirit. Yeah. So now we go
Speaker 1: to death as a transformation. So what happens when the
Speaker 1: whirlpool dissolves and panpsychism? Death is not the annihilation of consciousness. Instead,
Speaker 1: it's a transformation, a return to the wider field of awareness.
Speaker 1: The body may shut down, the personality may fade, but
Speaker 1: the essence, the conscious spark, was never produced by the body.
Speaker 1: To begin with, A helpful analogy is the radio. The
Speaker 1: radio doesn't create the music, It just tunes into a
Speaker 1: signal that's already there. When the radio breaks, the music
Speaker 1: doesn't stop existing. It still fills the airwaves, waiting for
Speaker 1: another receiver, in the same way your body is a
Speaker 1: receiver for consciousness. Death simply means this particular receiver shuts off,
Speaker 1: but the music awareness itself continues. This way of seeing
Speaker 1: death is not only less frightening, but deeply empowering. It
Speaker 1: reframes mortality not as a tragic ending, but as a homecoming.
Speaker 1: Life becomes a chapter and an endless story, a dream
Speaker 1: with a greater dream, and death is simply waking up. Hm.
Speaker 3: Hmmm, that's cool, man, Okay, that's cool. Energy can't be created,
Speaker 3: No one destroyed. Man, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 3: I believe the consciousness I am, the thing that is
Speaker 3: you is some sort of energy I guess would be consciousness.
Speaker 3: And you just remerge with that.
Speaker 1: Well, and and if you want to look at it
Speaker 1: like this, like if you want to talk about evolution
Speaker 1: or you know, how did consciousness evolve if it ever
Speaker 1: needed to evolve? Right like, and and the human body
Speaker 1: will do everything like it was it was. The human
Speaker 1: body was always in defense mode, like it still is
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, right And that's why most
Speaker 1: people are motivated off of fear or lack or unknowing.
Speaker 1: And it's like fear. I mean, uh, anxiety and depression
Speaker 1: are stemmed from those things. It's always a lack, it's
Speaker 1: a fear, you know, it's the unknown. I mean, the
Speaker 1: they're they're variables, right, and that's that's mainly like a
Speaker 1: body thing. Like if you think about it, the body
Speaker 1: was made to be defensive in a sense, like you know,
Speaker 1: we we evolved to run or we evolve to eat
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck or you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: the body has tried to survive throughout the annals of history,
Speaker 1: and that's why, like we just want to fuck all
Speaker 1: the time, you know what I'm saying. It's like I
Speaker 1: need to keep on reproducing because humanity is the most
Speaker 1: important thing to my human body, in my human mind. Right,
Speaker 1: you could say that consciousness wants to survive as well,
Speaker 1: and that its divine mission and that its divine purpose
Speaker 1: is to always survive. And if that's the case, then
Speaker 1: surely it found a way to do so, right right. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's interesting.
Speaker 3: I wonder I feel like it wouldn't even need to
Speaker 3: have that instinct, you know, if it is this foundational thing.
Speaker 1: I just feel like it doesn't have that notion that
Speaker 1: drive at all.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean it just is, you know,
Speaker 3: but that's not good enough for the scientific community, you know.
Speaker 1: What I mean.
Speaker 3: You can't just say it just is or it just does,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean That that's just kind of
Speaker 3: evading the real truth.
Speaker 1: Of the matter. They're not fans of it ill what
Speaker 1: it ill.
Speaker 3: That's right, you know, I kind of am from time
Speaker 3: to time. I mean, sometimes it's just is, you know.
Speaker 1: So all right, let's get to the ancient wisdom. These
Speaker 1: ideas aren't new. Humanity has been wrestling with them for
Speaker 1: thousands of years. In Hinduism, the teaching is that atman or,
Speaker 1: the individual self is ultimately identical with Brahmin, which is
Speaker 1: the universal consciousness. The personality is temporary, but the self
Speaker 1: is eternal. Dying is like removing a mask and realizing
Speaker 1: you were the actor all along. The Gnostics spoke of
Speaker 1: the soul trapped in matter, longing to remember its divine origin.
Speaker 1: In Buddhism, the self is seen as an illusion, and
Speaker 1: liberation comes when we see through it and merge with
Speaker 1: the boundless awareness beneath Doois. Sages described life and death
Speaker 1: as transformations within the dow the eternal flow. All these
Speaker 1: traditions converge on a central insight. You're not just the body,
Speaker 1: this mind, this personality. You are something greater, something eternal,
Speaker 1: wearing this form for a while. Panpsychism isn't just a
Speaker 1: modern theory. It's the latest language for an ancient truth. Hm,
Speaker 1: I dig it. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 3: I mean everyone's trying to understand this thing, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, we just got different names for it
Speaker 3: and different proofs and different lenses to look through. But
Speaker 3: I mean, come on, it's it's there's something there obviously
Speaker 3: that we're looking for.
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing, if you know, if consciousness
Speaker 1: comes after physical reality, why is it that since the
Speaker 1: beginning of time there has been spirituality in religion and
Speaker 1: myth and stories and you know, fasting and you know
Speaker 1: all these different things that you would do, because we've
Speaker 1: all had experiences that are like unexplainable, you know, and
Speaker 1: people have been like, wait a second, I just had
Speaker 1: that experience. It doesn't fit into like what they say
Speaker 1: this material reality is. It doesn't like and if everything
Speaker 1: was just a material reality, you wouldn't need to experience that,
Speaker 1: you know, And that's kind of like so of course
Speaker 1: there would be like religions that have spawned because hey,
Speaker 1: I've experienced something kind of similar to that. You know.
Speaker 1: That's actually the very reason why Electro Nick Ever reached
Speaker 1: out to me in the in the very first place
Speaker 1: was because I had told, you know, the show on
Speaker 1: the Cold of a Conspiracy about my Eloheem story, and
Speaker 1: Nick was like, holy shit, I had one of those two.
Speaker 1: He reached out, He told me history and the rest
Speaker 1: is history. Right. So we have these similar unexplainable experiences,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we just like to throw a name on them.
Speaker 1: But if all that there is is material reality, why
Speaker 1: would you need to even add that into the equation?
Speaker 1: Why would that even be a possibility. Why would synchronicities
Speaker 1: be a thing? It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be.
Speaker 3: You know, these are just the things that are woven
Speaker 3: into consciousness and it's just there.
Speaker 1: And not only just are they a thing? Why are
Speaker 1: we away that they're a thing? You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It's a deep question, like why would we be so
Speaker 1: aware of synchronicities? Why? You know what, I'm like, why
Speaker 1: is it that some people are like, yo, I see
Speaker 1: four four four every fucking day. I see it on
Speaker 1: a license plate I see it on a billboard, I
Speaker 1: see it on the clock, I see it on a
Speaker 1: page number that I'm reading. It is just constantly slapping
Speaker 1: me in the face. Now, some people would say, well,
Speaker 1: your mind is a tune and it's looking for it.
Speaker 1: I don't buy that. I really don't. I like because
Speaker 1: it seems like they always happen at a significant time, right,
Speaker 1: Like every synchronicity that you ever experience, it's always like, hey,
Speaker 1: bring your attention back, Like, I'm happy I got your
Speaker 1: attention with this synchronicity, But look around, maybe there's something
Speaker 1: going on that you need to pay attention to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to mention, you know. I like to bring
Speaker 3: him up because I just love the guy. But Danny
Speaker 3: Gohlder how he said, you know, nature keeps no secrets.
Speaker 3: I feel like that's kind of touching on that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Then the synchronicity and the just the experiences that you have. Man,
Speaker 3: it's just like a consciousness itself trying to let you
Speaker 3: know that you know, Hey, I'm right here, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, And I know that you're aware of me.
Speaker 3: But like you know what I mean, there's more to
Speaker 3: this mystery.
Speaker 1: There be more. Yeah, So modern science is catching up.
Speaker 1: Here's where things get exciting if they weren't already. Modern
Speaker 1: science is starting to echo what mystics have always known.
Speaker 1: Neuroscience has yet defined the quote unquote seat of consciousness
Speaker 1: in the brain. They can map neural activity, but they
Speaker 1: can't pinpoint where awareness lives. The best way that that
Speaker 1: they can say is that the brain states and consciousness
Speaker 1: states correlate, but correlation is not explanation. Meanwhile, quantum physics
Speaker 1: keeps producing results that put the observer back into the
Speaker 1: heart of reality. Of The famous double slit experiment that
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier shows that particles behaved differently depending on
Speaker 1: whether they're observed. Entanglement shows instantaneous connections across vast differences,
Speaker 1: as if the universe knows itself in a way beyond
Speaker 1: space and time. These phenomena don't disprove panpsychism outright, but
Speaker 1: they hint that consciousness isn't just a side effect of matter. Slowly,
Speaker 1: but surely, science is panting a picture that lines up
Speaker 1: with the oldest mystical traditions. Matter in mind are not
Speaker 1: two separate realms. They are woven together to sides of
Speaker 1: the same coin, rippling with awareness from top to bottom. Yeah, baby,
Speaker 1: all I love it. So then there's the practical power
Speaker 1: of panpsychism. Belief shapes behavior. We know this right. If
Speaker 1: you see the universe as dead matter, you treat it
Speaker 1: as a resource to exploit. If you see it as
Speaker 1: alive infused with awareness, you treat it with reverence. Panpsychism
Speaker 1: is not just abstract philosophy. It's a worldview that changes
Speaker 1: how we live. Think about compassion. If even the smallest creature,
Speaker 1: or even a plant, carries some spark of experience, then
Speaker 1: cruelty becomes less justifiable. You begin to see the world
Speaker 1: not as an it, but as a thou, a field
Speaker 1: of relationships instead of objects. This doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: stop eating, or building or creating, but it does mean
Speaker 1: that you begin to live with a sense of sacred reciprocity.
Speaker 1: On a personal level, panpsychism can reduce the fear of death.
Speaker 1: If consciousness doesn't begin at birth and doesn't end at death,
Speaker 1: then the stakes of exist and shift. Life becomes an adventure,
Speaker 1: not a desperate scramble against the void. You are playing
Speaker 1: a role in a grand drama, knowing the actor never dies.
Speaker 3: Hmm, that's cool, you know, Speaking of the void, man,
Speaker 3: you know, we go into a lot of things, and
Speaker 3: a lot of the things. Sure we can't prove, and
Speaker 3: it's all experiential and all of this, but I'm gonna
Speaker 3: come out and say do that there is no void.
Speaker 3: I there's no way that avoid is possible with just
Speaker 3: And this is just kind of what I've been thinking lately.
Speaker 3: You know, the fact of non existence, you know, the
Speaker 3: definition of that is something that doesn't exist. There's no
Speaker 3: way that it could be a thing that can be experienced.
Speaker 3: And so sure your mind took you there and said, hey,
Speaker 3: look at this for whatever reason. I'm sure that you
Speaker 3: figured out a lot of that, you know, for your
Speaker 3: own subconscious and everything else. But as far as they're
Speaker 3: being a void, no, well I don't think so.
Speaker 1: And I would actually agree with you on that because
Speaker 1: avoid is something that doesn't exist yet I was there
Speaker 1: to observe it, So therefore the void can't be the
Speaker 1: void if there was existence inside of it, right exactly.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I'd just like to throw that out there,
Speaker 3: because you know, and then you start to think of
Speaker 3: you know, people that want to tell you that you're
Speaker 3: going to hell and this and that, and it's just
Speaker 3: like I don't think that consciousness, or even if you
Speaker 3: want to say, God, somebody that created everything would want
Speaker 3: to put you there, you know, especially if it it's
Speaker 3: a part of itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, consciousness is not going to punish itself. No, that's ridiculous. No. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that brings us interestingly enough, panpsychism and immortality. When
Speaker 1: people hear immortality, they often imagine the personality living forever,
Speaker 1: me or you or whoever, stretching on into eternity. But
Speaker 1: panpsychism offers a more profound version. Immortality is not about
Speaker 1: clinging to your individual ego forever. It's about realizing you
Speaker 1: were never just that ego in the first place. Think
Speaker 1: of the ocean and its waves. Each wave rises, peaks,
Speaker 1: and falls, but the ocean is unbroken. The wave doesn't
Speaker 1: mourn when it disappears. It was never separate from the sea.
Speaker 1: In the same way, your consciousness is a wave in
Speaker 1: the infinite ocean of awareness. When the wave falls, the
Speaker 1: ocean remains. That ocean is you, and it never ceases.
Speaker 1: This reframes death and immortality in a way that's freeing.
Speaker 1: You don't need to chase eternal life as a personality
Speaker 1: because you are already eternal as the universal consciousness. The
Speaker 1: you that fears death is only a mask. The real
Speaker 1: you is deathless. The real you already know what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, man, that is interesting though, right, that like
Speaker 1: just the like just thinking about like, you know, because
Speaker 1: both you and I have had like deep inner conversations
Speaker 1: with ourself or with whatever you know, inside of our
Speaker 1: own mind about our own mortality. Right, and it's like,
Speaker 1: here we are, we are contemplating mortality as if it's
Speaker 1: a thing, you know what I mean. At that point,
Speaker 1: it's like only thing that you're really worried about consciously
Speaker 1: losing as far as mortality goes, would be the ego.
Speaker 1: It's like, of course, you don't need your ego anymore.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not gonna be Jonathan anymore. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: be this guy with the on tattoos and the matrix
Speaker 1: tattoos in a beard and somewhat beautiful, loving, luscious locks
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Right, I'm not going to be who I am.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm I'm not the guy that is speaking
Speaker 1: into the microphone that you're listening to on the other
Speaker 1: side of this podcast. That is me temporarily. The real
Speaker 1: me is beyond that. The real you is beyond that,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's the crazy part is that we
Speaker 1: want to bring podcaster Sean to the other side. We
Speaker 1: want to bring podcaster Jonathan to the other side. We
Speaker 1: want to bring you know, husband of so and so
Speaker 1: to the other side, father or wife or brother or
Speaker 1: sister of so and so to the other side, to
Speaker 1: become immortal within the realms of human physical history. And
Speaker 1: that's exactly what a physical body would want, you know,
Speaker 1: if it it it fears mortality, right like it fears
Speaker 1: for its own mortality in the way that like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm who I know to be me absolutely will cease
Speaker 1: to exist. And this is where a lot of people
Speaker 1: get caught up because some people don't know how to
Speaker 1: separate themselves from their own ego or separate themselves for
Speaker 1: their physic from their physical body or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And if if people only knew that you exist outside
Speaker 1: of this meat suit, like not kind of think or
Speaker 1: I'm I'm leaning that way, but if you knew it
Speaker 1: to your core, dude, yeah, I mean, it's just another
Speaker 1: fucking journey we're gonna go on.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, dude, And you know, you know how
Speaker 3: how firmly you are grasping onto your ego when it
Speaker 3: is suddenly just kind of stripped away, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, through maybe some type of psychedelic experience, you know,
Speaker 3: and when when that is gone, how uncomfortable that can be,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. So of course we're holding
Speaker 3: on to that thing because deep down, I think we
Speaker 3: know when you let go of that, it's an you're
Speaker 3: already in the unknown, like immediately, you know, I think physically,
Speaker 3: that's what we're afraid of.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's something that even Buddha was trying
Speaker 1: to teach, you know, uh Gautama whatever his real name was,
Speaker 1: but like he was trying to teach that essentially, the
Speaker 1: your attachments are what is binding you to this physical world.
Speaker 1: You got to, you know, in a sense, and not
Speaker 1: everybody can live without attachments. Of course, we love our kids,
Speaker 1: of course, we love our parents. Of course, we love
Speaker 1: our significant others, and we love the interactions that we
Speaker 1: make with other individuals, and you know, we love our
Speaker 1: dogs whatever, right like, of course we love it. But
Speaker 1: the idea is to be able to say, all right,
Speaker 1: that is my physical reality. That's not all that reality is.
Speaker 1: And so if you're to say, if I'm trying to
Speaker 1: live without attachments, in a way, it would be to
Speaker 1: say that, like, we're living two different lives and one
Speaker 1: is temporary, and yes I'm going to miss everybody, but
Speaker 1: the actual reality of our personal, actual reality itself is
Speaker 1: beyond those things that it is beautiful because it is temporary.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, in that way reality we are just infinite,
Speaker 3: you know, we go on forever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's fucking awesome. So all right,
Speaker 1: the mystery of division? Is it real or illusion? Here's
Speaker 1: the haunting question. If consciousness is universal, why do I
Speaker 1: feel like only me and not like everything? Why am
Speaker 1: I a window and not the whole? Is this division
Speaker 1: real or is it an illusion? Pansychism answers by pointing
Speaker 1: to integration. Consciousness organizes itself into patterns, and each pattern
Speaker 1: becomes its own window. And so we were kind of
Speaker 1: touching on this a little bit earlier. It's going to
Speaker 1: go a little bit deeper. Now your brain integrates experiences
Speaker 1: into one stream, and that stream is what it feels
Speaker 1: like to be you. In this sense, separation is real
Speaker 1: enough for experience, but not ultimate. It's functional but not absolute.
Speaker 1: From a mystical view, individuality is an illusion. Consciousness generates
Speaker 1: so that it can experience itself in countless forms, one
Speaker 1: light through many prisms, one mirror shattered into infinite shards.
Speaker 1: From the scientific view, your awareness is bounded by the
Speaker 1: information that your body processes. From the mystical view, you
Speaker 1: were always the whole. The mask just convinced you otherwise.
Speaker 3: And that the continuity of that mask really kind of
Speaker 3: keeps you in that illusion, you know. I mean, if
Speaker 3: there was you watch a movie and after about ten minutes,
Speaker 3: because you're in that state of mind where you're just
Speaker 3: entranced with the movie, you almost forget that you're watching
Speaker 3: the movie. It's almost like you're just you're you're just
Speaker 3: so involved that, you know what I mean, It just
Speaker 3: the experience is whatever is happening on the on the screen,
Speaker 3: you know, And so the continuity of that until the
Speaker 3: movie ends, and then you come out and then you
Speaker 3: talk about the movie, and you're now coming to the
Speaker 3: idea like, oh, that was the experience of watching a movie,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. So I feel like that's
Speaker 3: what this is. Yeah, the continuity of our life. Every
Speaker 3: morning you wake up, you're still you're still Jonathan. You're
Speaker 3: still Jonathan, and you kind of hold that that mask
Speaker 3: up of who you think you are and then when
Speaker 3: it ends, you go, oh, well that was interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, man, I thought that was real.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I felt it felt real, dude, you tell everybody
Speaker 3: I forgot parts. But like there was this podcasting thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It was like you talk to people and I don't know,
Speaker 3: you come up with what to say, like on the
Speaker 3: spot it was wild yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and like we spoke with our mouth how primitive.
Speaker 3: People were believing in God and sacrificing goats. It was weird,
Speaker 3: but it's fun, you know, it was fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, dude, man, what a U for moment that's
Speaker 1: going to be whenever we finally get there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and you go, I knew it, yeah right,
Speaker 3: Like fuck, how.
Speaker 1: How else could I have framed it to help people understand?
Speaker 1: You know, it's impossible. They'll never get it. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the doal that can be explained is not
Speaker 1: the real doll anyway. They're I'll try it, They're all trying.
Speaker 1: You can't explain the unexplainable is the point.
Speaker 3: And that's it, dude, that's what we're talking about here
Speaker 3: with consciousness, it's something that can't be.
Speaker 1: Tangible. It's just not tangible.
Speaker 3: We don't even know where it is within our mind,
Speaker 3: So how are we supposed to analyze it and really
Speaker 3: research it other than just through experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what we're left with. So that is what
Speaker 1: we're left with. Yeah, which I actually like that. It's
Speaker 1: almost uh that it's mysterious. You know, it adds to
Speaker 1: because if you knew exactly what it was, there would
Speaker 1: be no need to continue wondering and trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what it is. And so by our content you
Speaker 1: as wonder, we are constantly interacting with it, you know,
Speaker 1: And maybe that's the point.
Speaker 3: Yep, I think a little bit. Yeah, for sure, definitely.
Speaker 3: I mean even in the physicalist look at this, you
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, it's like big bang physical stuff
Speaker 3: coming together with eyeballs and vocal cords and thoughts and
Speaker 3: thinking about its beginning and where it came from. Like,
Speaker 3: even that is just weird in itself, you know, not
Speaker 3: even getting into the woo woo or any of that.
Speaker 3: You know, it's still just fucking weird. It's all weird, weird.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful though, So from the wholeness to the window.
Speaker 3: So how do we go from total consciousness to a narrow,
Speaker 3: a narrow personal window. In the first place, this is fun.
Speaker 3: So think of consciousness like light. Again, light can flood
Speaker 3: a room, but it can also shine through a pinhole.
Speaker 3: Being human is the pinhole view, the universal awareness focused
Speaker 3: through the lens of your body and mind. This doesn't
Speaker 3: mean you left the hole. The hole is still there
Speaker 3: flowing through you. You are like a radio tune into
Speaker 3: a single frequency.
Speaker 1: The signal hasn't gone anywhere, but your tuner narrows it
Speaker 1: into one voice, one channel, and one story one. That narrowing,
Speaker 1: and that narrowing rather is what gives rise to individuality.
Speaker 1: It's what allows the one to experience the adventure of
Speaker 1: being Jonathan or Sean or anyone else. It's not a loss,
Speaker 1: but it's a creative act. Consciousness plays like it's small
Speaker 1: so that it can live many lives. Death then is
Speaker 1: the moment that the tuner powers down and the signal
Speaker 1: returns to its infinite range. Yeah yeah, So then, of
Speaker 1: course there is the illusion of separation. From the mystical
Speaker 1: point of view, the sense of being only you is
Speaker 1: not the ultimate truth, but an illusion, what Buddhists call
Speaker 1: the Maya. Consciousness never actually fractures. It only appears divided
Speaker 1: because it's looking at itself through countless perspectives. Just as
Speaker 1: a mirror can shatter into many shards yet still reflect
Speaker 1: the same sky, awareness refracts into billions of individual lives
Speaker 1: without ever ceasing to be whole. The illusion is necessary
Speaker 1: for the play of life. If you knew at all
Speaker 1: times that you were the entire cosmos, the drama of
Speaker 1: the human being might lose its meaning. The illusion allows
Speaker 1: you to feel joy and pain, and triumph and tragedy
Speaker 1: as if they were happening to someone separate, which makes
Speaker 1: the experience experiences more vivid. The one hides from itself
Speaker 1: in order to find itself anew. When death dissolves that illusion,
Speaker 1: you awaken the truth that the boundaries were never real.
Speaker 1: They were costumes masks worn by eternity to see itself
Speaker 1: in fresh ways. Life is the game, and individuality is
Speaker 1: the disguise that makes that game possible.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if this is the truth,
Speaker 3: but it's definitely the one I'd like to uh, I'd
Speaker 3: like to pick and run with for a while it
Speaker 3: just seems more fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I mean it's the nama stay yeah.
Speaker 3: Dude, you know, I mean everything within every butterfly, everything.
Speaker 1: A blade of grass, a fart, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: all of it's the same. And that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 1: Is that, as we said on d mt X or
Speaker 1: you know, on mushrooms, any psychedelic whatever you're doing, why
Speaker 1: is it that everything becomes so much more beautiful, Everything
Speaker 1: becomes so much more vibrant, almost as if we're seeing
Speaker 1: it in its natural form.
Speaker 3: No shit, dude, I never thought that I would feel
Speaker 3: some type of remorse looking at a tree and saying, wow, like,
Speaker 3: how come I never really paid this tree the amount
Speaker 3: of attention it deserved, you know what I mean, as
Speaker 3: a as the entity that it is like, And that's
Speaker 3: that sounds kind of weird, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I never thought I would feel that way. But for
Speaker 3: some reason, there there's definitely that that that happening, whatever
Speaker 3: that is, you know, like, let me see that thing,
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, it just looks like its own
Speaker 3: and even the individual leaves look like its own entity
Speaker 3: of sorts, like and almost if you think about it,
Speaker 3: this way. The tree itself is such a good symbol
Speaker 3: for exactly what we were talking about, you know, trunk
Speaker 3: going up as the stream of consciousness, and then the
Speaker 3: branches coming out being their own seemingly their own thing,
Speaker 3: but really they're just all part of the tree.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It looks majestic, and you almost feel like you
Speaker 1: owe it a respect, you know, like not necessarily worship
Speaker 1: by any means, but definitely alluding to its own consciousness,
Speaker 1: like just saying like, oh, there's something extra than just
Speaker 1: wood going on here. Yeah, you know, worthy of your observance,
Speaker 1: you know, at the very least, like yes that you know, yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: And so anyhow so now we get to the evolutionary role.
Speaker 1: Panpsychism also dovetails beautifully with evolution if you're somebody that
Speaker 1: believes in evolution. To be honest, this is something that
Speaker 1: I've been playing with. I think I've been playing with
Speaker 1: it a little bit. I've been playing with it, been
Speaker 1: touching it a little bit, you know, right, mainly when
Speaker 1: nobody's looking, of course, but of course, I mean that's
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, touching it. Nonetheless, the idea
Speaker 1: of evolution, see, if we are beyond what it is
Speaker 1: to be human. Then who gives a fuck if evolution
Speaker 1: is a real thing or not as far as the
Speaker 1: physical reality itself, if it's only secondary.
Speaker 3: Right, well, I mean when I think of evolution, I
Speaker 3: think of just the physicalist idea of it. I don't
Speaker 3: even I don't even think I I I don't know.
Speaker 3: See hold on a minute, hold on, think about it.
Speaker 3: Think about this for a second, because I feel like consciousness.
Speaker 3: Oh shit, if consciousness is fundamental, I don't know if
Speaker 3: it if it needed to evolve necessarily, but definitely the
Speaker 3: physical our physical form has evolved, I think.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. That's because if you think
Speaker 1: about it for a second, So if everything was always conscious,
Speaker 1: and everything was always consciousness, then that means that at
Speaker 1: one point in time we probably experienced what it was
Speaker 1: like to experience to be a rock, a blade of grass,
Speaker 1: a tree, a dog, a bird, a lizard, drop of water,
Speaker 1: like all of these things we've you know, if if
Speaker 1: if all is one thing, then we had to have
Speaker 1: experienced it all. And to be honest, if you want
Speaker 1: to take it to even trippier level, we are currently
Speaker 1: experiencing what it's like to be all that anyway, because
Speaker 1: time itself is an illusion, right, So if we're to
Speaker 1: stick on that, on that realm, then wouldn't it make
Speaker 1: just as much sense that we would want to know
Speaker 1: what it feels like to be a monkey that eventually
Speaker 1: involved evolved into a caveman, like imagining imagine having your
Speaker 1: consciousness in that caveman, and then imagining, imagine what it
Speaker 1: would be like to be a Neanderthal. And you know,
Speaker 1: the the homo sapien, before the homo sapient sapien, It's
Speaker 1: like it's still consciousness. It's just that the ability within.
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, if if we are
Speaker 1: to look at consciousness as if it exists on a
Speaker 1: scale as far as awareness goes, and the awareness of
Speaker 1: said consciousness goes, then eventually, if the human mind is evolving,
Speaker 1: it is only pro consciousness. It is in. It is
Speaker 1: in Uh, it's in favor of consciousness experiencing itself, you know,
Speaker 1: just throughout the annals of tubble, right right, And so
Speaker 1: at that point, consciousness would be in favor of evolution,
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely, Okay, I'm with you. I understand what
Speaker 1: you're trying to say now, and I'm not even saying
Speaker 1: one hundred percent that I believe in evolution. I'm just
Speaker 1: saying I'm not going to sit here and cancel it out.
Speaker 1: I think that would be kind of silly. Right, Oh,
Speaker 1: for sure, it doesn't go against any spirituality and the
Speaker 1: people that the people that think it does definitely, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: And the people that think that it you know, it
Speaker 1: goes against consciousness. Well, and here's the problem. The problem
Speaker 1: is is that it doesn't go against spirituality, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't go against consciousness. It goes against religion, right for sure.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 3: So I'm all for the idea of evolution being a
Speaker 3: real thing, you know what I mean, And consciousness, like
Speaker 3: you said, is only experiencing it through those different forms
Speaker 3: of really the ability to have a higher level of awareness.
Speaker 1: You know, really, yeah, I mean, and you could even
Speaker 1: look at it like all right, well, let's look at
Speaker 1: a consciousness as if it was a technology, for example,
Speaker 1: like a physical material technology like and we were to
Speaker 1: look at technology as if it was a human evolving, right,
Speaker 1: just to play a little game. So at one point
Speaker 1: in time, consciousness existed as a record, and then it
Speaker 1: evolved into an eight track, and then it evolved into
Speaker 1: a cassette, and then it evolved into a CD, and
Speaker 1: then it evolved into an MP three, and every single
Speaker 1: one of those there, you could like they held more
Speaker 1: memory as it evolved and as it went on, and
Speaker 1: the more memory that it could that it could hold,
Speaker 1: the more experiences it could have, the more that it
Speaker 1: could learn to be more and think more and wonder more. Right,
Speaker 1: And so if we just look at it in that sense,
Speaker 1: it kind of checks out to me. Anyway.
Speaker 3: That's where we are, dude, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: where at the forefront of the technology or the human
Speaker 3: evolution that is actually trying to figure out what consciousness is.
Speaker 3: And I feel like we're getting close, man, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. I feel like there's going to be
Speaker 3: something to be said for people that are just able
Speaker 3: to read each other's thoughts and shit.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's something that's possible. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean. And also, I mean, if consciousness is the
Speaker 1: all meaning, all knowing, omnipotent, omni aware, omni everything, if
Speaker 1: we're just going to you know, kind of compare it
Speaker 1: to God in a sense, which it would have to
Speaker 1: be if it never if it never ceases to exist.
Speaker 1: That means, and if it's all one thing and it
Speaker 1: never ceases to exist. Then that means that it has
Speaker 1: experienced everything that there has ever been to ever experience. Yep,
Speaker 1: so it has no choiceation right right, God, we're getting
Speaker 1: philosophical up in this, bitch. I love it. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: So imagine consciousness not as something that suddenly appears at
Speaker 1: the top of the evolutionary ladder, excuse me, but as
Speaker 1: something that grows in complexity along with life itself. The
Speaker 1: bacteria may have the faintest pinprick of awareness, an animal
Speaker 1: a wider scope, and a human a vast self reflective window.
Speaker 1: From this perspective, evolution isn't about creating consciousness, but about
Speaker 1: building more elaborate receivers. Yes, and so consciousness you could
Speaker 1: call it God, you can call it angels, you can
Speaker 1: call it Aloheim, you can call it Pleadians, maybe all
Speaker 1: of it, right, But it is always in favor of
Speaker 1: that receiver being broadened and so, and that just makes
Speaker 1: me think back to that dude, you got to watch
Speaker 1: that movie. I think I told you about it before,
Speaker 1: but it's and maybe watched it. But it's called The Eternals.
Speaker 1: It's a superhero movie. It's like a moment. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I saw that. Holy shit. I started watching it again
Speaker 1: last night because I was like, I wonder thinking, how
Speaker 1: I think now? How can I look at it? That's
Speaker 1: the best part, dude. And so if consciousness, if you want,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, that maybe there are
Speaker 1: other vehicles in which consciousness can fully express itself, and
Speaker 1: it's looking down at the other vehicles of which consciousness
Speaker 1: can't fully express itself or know itself or wonder itself
Speaker 1: as much as the whole can experience the whole, then
Speaker 1: you would have to wonder, like, could there be other
Speaker 1: vessels or other vehicles that are you know, kind of
Speaker 1: helping us along the way, pushing us in the right path, you.
Speaker 3: Know, absolutely and manifesting in maybe orbs who knows, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like they don't have to look
Speaker 3: like us to exude some type of consciousness, you know.
Speaker 1: And the beautiful thing about that is is that it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to happen to everybody. It is. It is
Speaker 1: on a per individual basis. And that's what's so beautiful
Speaker 1: and poetic and amazing about all of it is that
Speaker 1: it waits for you to say that you're ready, And
Speaker 1: if you're not ready. Maybe you're never ready. Then that's okay,
Speaker 1: because you're just gonna keep on fucking existing any way,
Speaker 1: and eventually one day you'll get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're not ready, you're gonna miss the signs
Speaker 3: and the synchronicities and everything else that it's trying to
Speaker 3: show you anyways.
Speaker 1: And so you know, only the people that are more
Speaker 1: aware going.
Speaker 3: To notice these things and actually try to figure out
Speaker 3: what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 1: You know, Yes, So let me just read that sentence again,
Speaker 1: because that one hit me. So from this perspective, evolution
Speaker 1: isn't about creating consciousness, but about building more elaborate receivers.
Speaker 1: The nervous system of animals, the brains of mammals, and
Speaker 1: eventually the human mind all serve as instruments for the
Speaker 1: universal awareness to experience itself in new ways. The complexity
Speaker 1: of the organism shapes the richness of the experience. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it makes sense, doesn't it. It's tracking man. Your individuality then,
Speaker 1: is not random. It's the product of millions of years
Speaker 1: of evolution tuning the instrument. Consciousness didn't switch on one
Speaker 1: day in the past. It has always been here, deepening, widening,
Speaker 1: and flowering into the human experience. We now call me
Speaker 1: m yeah, buddy, And eventually we're just going to be
Speaker 1: a step on that ladder for the next, you know,
Speaker 1: the next round of expanded awareness and consciousness, you know. Man. So,
Speaker 1: now we get into near death experiences and other beings.
Speaker 1: But if death is a return to the whole, how
Speaker 1: do we explain near death experiences where people report meeting
Speaker 1: other Did I already read this? Oh no, I didn't
Speaker 1: read this. I'm sure where people report meeting other beings
Speaker 1: or deceive deceased loved ones. Shouldn't it all just dissolve
Speaker 1: into pure oneness? Oh yeah. Panpsychism provides a way to
Speaker 1: understand this mystery. When the body begins to shut down,
Speaker 1: the quote unquote window of consciousness doesn't vanish all at once.
Speaker 1: And oh dude, this is this is goops goosebump material
Speaker 1: right here. Okay, And so it doesn't just vanish Whenever
Speaker 1: the body begins to shut down, the window of consciousness
Speaker 1: doesn't vanish all at once, right, So instead, awareness loosens
Speaker 1: from the body, but still carries the familiar patterns of personality, memory,
Speaker 1: and relationship. In this liminal state, almost like an in
Speaker 1: between consciousness often generates experiences that reflect those patterns, tunnels
Speaker 1: of light, comforting figures, encounters with guides. They're not hallucinations,
Speaker 1: but bridges between individuality and unity. And remember, even if
Speaker 1: you are merging into the hole, the other windows of
Speaker 1: consciousness still exist. Other beings, other souls, other fragments of
Speaker 1: the one are still shining their perspectives. In the near
Speaker 1: death experience you make glimpse or interact with them before
Speaker 1: the final dissolving. It is the moment of standing between
Speaker 1: two realities, the dream of individuality and the awakening into
Speaker 1: the eternal. Wow, that's cool.
Speaker 3: Cool, Like your individual self is still kind of echoing
Speaker 3: as it transitions into that mainstream of consciousness, right, and
Speaker 3: think about it like transitional period, like the yeah, like
Speaker 3: the soft launch back into the one exactly.
Speaker 1: And it's almost like, all right, look, I know you,
Speaker 1: you like forgot and it's been a little while since
Speaker 1: you've been here, So we're gonna hold your hand all
Speaker 1: the way through it. And then whenever you're finally fully
Speaker 1: dissolved back into the one, you're gonna realize that every
Speaker 1: single one of those others that were helping you trans
Speaker 1: like connect to the other side, they're all fucking you.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Like, like, that's that's the
Speaker 1: trip of it. So let's go even farther into that idea.
Speaker 1: All right, So what happens when the dissolution is complete?
Speaker 1: Whenever you? Whenever you the final dissolve. Imagine waking from
Speaker 1: a dream. While you were in it, everything felt real,
Speaker 1: the people, the places, the struggles, the emotions, but the
Speaker 1: But the moment that you open your eyes, you realize
Speaker 1: that it was all a story woven by your mind.
Speaker 1: You don't you warn the dream. You simply see it
Speaker 1: for what it was. From a panpsychist view, death is
Speaker 1: exactly exactly that. So life as me or you or
Speaker 1: anyone else in a dream of universal consciousness from when
Speaker 1: the body falls away you wake up. The experiences don't disappear,
Speaker 1: They become absorbed into the greater memory of the whole.
Speaker 1: The dream dissolves, but the dreamer, you, me, everybody else remains.
Speaker 1: This is why mystics and near death experiencers so often
Speaker 1: described life as a dream within a dream. The dissolution
Speaker 1: feels like an annihilation and more like waking into a
Speaker 1: greater reality. You realize you were never just the character
Speaker 1: and the dream. You were the dreamer the entire time.
Speaker 1: M Dude.
Speaker 3: You've been saying that almost since we first started this podcast. Dude,
Speaker 3: that like, when we go, it's gonna be like waking
Speaker 3: up from a dream. That's way before we did most
Speaker 3: of this research, way before we did most of the
Speaker 3: near death experience episode.
Speaker 1: Like you, you've always kind of had that idea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where did that come from? Well, And to be honest,
Speaker 1: I think it probably all started with, dude, whenever I
Speaker 1: first met Jacob. I remember one of the very first
Speaker 1: things he ever told me, right, I would I would.
Speaker 1: I would go up to him and be like, hey, bro,
Speaker 1: how you doing. You know, how's life? You know, just
Speaker 1: getting to know him and everything right, and he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd ask him, you know, what's up and
Speaker 1: how's it been going or whatever, and he would go, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, man, just uh, live in life one nightmare
Speaker 1: at a time. And I used to think about that, like, man,
Speaker 1: what if it all is a dream and then you
Speaker 1: have these mystical experiences with psychedelics and everything else, and
Speaker 1: you're like, all right, it feels pretty fucking fluid like
Speaker 1: a dream. Would you know, yeah, exactly what kind of
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You could go to bed
Speaker 1: at night and have a dream within a dream. Come on, man, dude,
Speaker 1: I mean honestly, yeah, that's and and and I don't
Speaker 1: like whenever people like liking it too. We're in we're trapped, No,
Speaker 1: because you're only trapped if you believe you're in a
Speaker 1: cage in the first place. And like it's entirely dependent
Speaker 1: upon your perspective of your reality because and you can't
Speaker 1: say that it is it is a trap, Like it
Speaker 1: can't entirely be a trap, because there are people living
Speaker 1: this life as if it's not. There are people that
Speaker 1: are loving this life. There are people, you know, crypto
Speaker 1: bros that bought islands and they made their own laws
Speaker 1: and they can do whatever the fuck they want. So
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem like prison to me. That doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like any kind of cage or any kind of trap.
Speaker 1: The trap, the only trap that is out there is
Speaker 1: the one that you create for your mind. That's the mindset.
Speaker 1: That's it, yeah, man, Because I mean feeling of U
Speaker 1: lack that kind of is just its own vibration, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like it's it's its own thing.
Speaker 1: And you've created that, and that's a hard pill for
Speaker 1: a lot of people to swallow because it's easier, it's
Speaker 1: easier to say that I'm trapped than admit that I'm
Speaker 1: the one that has the key to get out of
Speaker 1: this cage anyway. Yep, and you're refusing to utilize that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody has a reason to feel bad for themselves.
Speaker 1: Everybody does. Because the thing is is that, Yes, in
Speaker 1: the modern day and age, you know, we have ac
Speaker 1: the kings of old who were living like literal kings,
Speaker 1: having you know, peasants feed them grapes and having midwives
Speaker 1: and you know what I mean, not just midwives, but
Speaker 1: you know what I'm trying to say, like you add helpers.
Speaker 1: I mean, living to the highest extent of the fifteen
Speaker 1: hundreds would be a fucking poor person nowadays. Okay, So
Speaker 1: if you really think about it, the worst thing that's
Speaker 1: ever happened to you is just the worst thing that's
Speaker 1: ever happened to you. There's nothing else to compare it to. Yep.
Speaker 1: You know, but we don't look at like that way.
Speaker 1: We look at like, you know, the the kings of old,
Speaker 1: as if they had it made and in comparison to today,
Speaker 1: it's like, man, I mean, they're no better off than
Speaker 1: the meth heads at the bus stops. You know, It's like,
Speaker 1: that's the same shit. You're basically living the same life,
Speaker 1: except for at least the meth heads got an iPhone.
Speaker 1: It's like they did. Kings didn't even have that. No, no,
Speaker 1: for sure, that's fucking funny. So anyhow to two? Okay,
Speaker 1: So now one of the final parts we're gonna get
Speaker 1: into is m samsara and nirvana, right, all right. Buddhism
Speaker 1: gives us a language that resonates powerfully within panpsychism. In
Speaker 1: Buddhist teachings, samsara is the endless cycle of birth, death,
Speaker 1: and rebirth. Beings take on forms, suffer through illusions, and
Speaker 1: continue to spin in the wheel lifetime after lifetime. If
Speaker 1: life is a dream of consciousness, samsara is the act
Speaker 1: of repeated falling asleep into new dreams, forgetting the truth
Speaker 1: of who you are. Every death, in this view is
Speaker 1: like waking up for a moment, dissolving into the hole,
Speaker 1: remembering the truth. But then, unless you've attained full realization,
Speaker 1: you fall back into another dream, another body, another story.
Speaker 1: The illusion begins again. Consciousness hides itself once more to
Speaker 1: play the game. This is the great cycle, the ocean
Speaker 1: forgetting that it is the ocean in imagining itself as
Speaker 1: countless waves. Nirvana, therefore, is the liberation from this cycle.
Speaker 1: It is breaking the cycle of Samsara. It is the
Speaker 1: moments of remembering so completely that you no longer need
Speaker 1: to fall asleep in the dream of individuality again. It's
Speaker 1: the realization that you are not the wave, not even
Speaker 1: the dreamer of a single dream, but the eternal awareness,
Speaker 1: awareness in which all dreams arise and dissolve. In pansychist terms,
Speaker 1: it is dissolving fully into the universal field, never again
Speaker 1: to be fracked into separate windows, different words, same insight.
Speaker 1: The wave realizes that it was always the sea. So
Speaker 1: if you feel like you're trapped, then you should probably
Speaker 1: meditate break that cycle.
Speaker 3: Get your mind right, you know that that's the only
Speaker 3: hell that exists is the confines of your mind that
Speaker 3: won't allow you to expand and think a little differently,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, and use your your powered
Speaker 3: ability to you know, rise above and just look at
Speaker 3: things a little bit differently, you know, and change your reality.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine that a chipmunk wonders
Speaker 1: if it's doing life the right way or not. No,
Speaker 1: it just do it, just do Yeah, so we arrive
Speaker 1: at the great mystery. If panpsychism is true, then you
Speaker 1: are not a fragile body clinging to a flicker of life.
Speaker 1: You are life itself consciousness without beginning or end. The
Speaker 1: story of quote unquote you, your joys, your struggles, your
Speaker 1: fears and loves is not erased at death. But recognize
Speaker 1: what it always was, a dream, a performance, a mask
Speaker 1: worn by eternity. Death then is not that's a tough word,
Speaker 1: not an annihilation, but a return. It is not a
Speaker 1: plunge into the void, but an awakening into wholeness. That's
Speaker 1: perfect for what you said earlier, Sam Sorrow may draw
Speaker 1: you back into the play, or nirvana may allow you
Speaker 1: to rest in the eternal. But either way, you never
Speaker 1: cease to be. You are the river flowing, the ocean, dreaming,
Speaker 1: the light shining through countless prisms. As you walk through
Speaker 1: your days, remember this, every glance, every heart beat, every
Speaker 1: star over ahead and stone underfoot is alive with awareness.
Speaker 1: You're not separate from it. You are it, the one
Speaker 1: looking through the many, the dreamer and the dream, and
Speaker 1: when the mask finally finally falls, you will remember you
Speaker 1: always have been and always will be the hole.
Speaker 3: And when that time comes, man, and the mask is
Speaker 3: able to come off, you could be like Truman and
Speaker 3: taking them bow, you know what I mean? Like the play,
Speaker 3: This play is over, but a new one will begin, yeah,
Speaker 3: after the after the intermission, of course.
Speaker 1: Either a new one will begin or maybe it won't.
Speaker 1: It's up to you. I think that it's entirely up
Speaker 1: to us to decide. You think so it has to be,
Speaker 1: because I mean, I know that some people are like, Man,
Speaker 1: there's no way I would have accepted this reality. But
Speaker 1: that's looking through a very narrow pinhole. As it kind
Speaker 1: of stated earlier. You're not seeing the whole door. You're
Speaker 1: looking through a tiny little pinhole. You're like you're staying
Speaker 1: up for for Christmas as a little kid, and you're
Speaker 1: laying down in front of the door, looking underneath the
Speaker 1: cracks and trying to see if you can hear the
Speaker 1: jingle bells or or the black boots or a whole
Speaker 1: ho ho or something like that. You don't see it.
Speaker 1: All you're going to see is the rubber from Santa's boot.
Speaker 1: You know, and so in this sense, it's like a
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't necessarily, I don't know. It's like
Speaker 1: maybe we just through the lens of what it means
Speaker 1: to be human. And if you're only living as your
Speaker 1: human self, you're never going to see the whole for
Speaker 1: what it is. If all you think is that all
Speaker 1: we are is physical human beings and that maybe kind
Speaker 1: of sort of might consciousness might stem from that, then yes,
Speaker 1: you're limited and you're going to wonder why am I here?
Speaker 1: But if you can dissolve yourself into that deep sea
Speaker 1: of the wholeness of the one, dude, it's pretty easy
Speaker 1: to find out. I think that, like, yo, I'm actually
Speaker 1: here for a reason, and so I'm going to try
Speaker 1: and like live up to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you don't know what it is yet,
Speaker 3: like figure that out and then just go for it,
Speaker 3: you know, because you're here for something for sure.
Speaker 1: Oh dude, as one of I can't remember who said it,
Speaker 1: but somebody said, your purpose is to find your purpose.
Speaker 1: M hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's and that could be a hard thing, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like if you're you're too busy
Speaker 3: on your phone looking at TikTok and doing this and
Speaker 3: being bogged down by anxiety and stress and worry and
Speaker 3: most of those things that are causing you anxiety or
Speaker 3: the things that you have a choice to fix, but
Speaker 3: you're choosing not to, and so that's why you're stressed.
Speaker 3: It's like, get out of that, figure out what it
Speaker 3: is that you enjoy doing the most that can help people,
Speaker 3: or whatever it is, and then just start putting time
Speaker 3: and energy into that and just just go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just go, you know, yeah, dude, that's what we're
Speaker 1: made to do. I think. But yeah, I love this
Speaker 1: idea of panpsychism. I mean, you vibe in with it.
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you It's fun.
Speaker 3: There's obviously no way, it's an unknowable thing we'll never
Speaker 3: maybe we'll never completely know. But I feel like, if
Speaker 3: nothing else, I enjoy looking through this lens, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. It's it's definitely funner to look at
Speaker 3: it this way, you know. And then if you by
Speaker 3: looking through this lens and when you want to get into, uh,
Speaker 3: the idea of telepathy and these certain things and these
Speaker 3: are all consciousness based modalities.
Speaker 1: Now, it's almost like you're opening a.
Speaker 3: Portal or a doorway within your mind to better accept
Speaker 3: that as something that is reality, and then maybe you're
Speaker 3: able to do it, you know.
Speaker 1: And like, I mean, what it means to be a
Speaker 1: human is essentially what it means to trip, because you're
Speaker 1: getting a tiny fractal of all the information. You're seeing
Speaker 1: it through a very tiny small lens. And if all,
Speaker 1: you know, if if we are part of the hole
Speaker 1: and the whole is part of us, and we are
Speaker 1: it and it is us, then the card that flips
Speaker 1: out of your hand whenever you're shuffling the taro is
Speaker 1: nothing more than a message that you're trying to give
Speaker 1: yourself for that very moment, exactly. Yep. And that's just
Speaker 1: it always seems to resonate, right, you know. Do Yeah? Now,
Speaker 1: so what is that though, sir?
Speaker 3: Which, yeah, dude, we got the page of which I mean,
Speaker 3: I always, I always enjoy a pedicle card, you know.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's usually a good sign money, money, money,
Speaker 1: you know. I actually, since I'm in Arizona, I have
Speaker 1: my book elsewhere, so we're gonna pull it up what
Speaker 1: it means on And I always like to go to
Speaker 1: one of my favorite websites if I'm trying to look
Speaker 1: something up, like look up what a Tarot card means
Speaker 1: is bitty Taro, So I'll actually share the screen right
Speaker 1: mit Bitty Tarot b id by tarot dot com. It's
Speaker 1: usually pretty accurate, at least you know from my experience
Speaker 1: with it. By the way, I do want to say
Speaker 1: we are on Patreon, so if you want to be
Speaker 1: able to support the show, then come over to patreon
Speaker 1: dot com slash metamistics that links down the show notes below.
Speaker 1: We have several different tiers, but if you just want
Speaker 1: to be able to sign up to be able to
Speaker 1: support the show, that we have a tier that is
Speaker 1: only three dollars and thirty three cents a month, and
Speaker 1: that gives you access to be able to come and
Speaker 1: join us and you'll be able to see all of
Speaker 1: the video without commercials. You'll be able to into our dms,
Speaker 1: You'll be able to comment under each individual episode and
Speaker 1: become part of the community. Part of the one is
Speaker 1: what we like to say. But if you want to
Speaker 1: take that a step farther, then we have the Wonder
Speaker 1: wiz Day Tier. It's eight dollars and eighty eight cents
Speaker 1: per month and you get everything that you get for
Speaker 1: the three dollars and thirty three cent Tier. But you
Speaker 1: also get to join us every Wednesday night for the
Speaker 1: Wonder Wizday Live show. So if you want to be
Speaker 1: a part of that conversation, put your two cents in,
Speaker 1: be a fly on the wall, whatever, you just want
Speaker 1: to be live in that moment. And you you probably
Speaker 1: ain't got shit going on a Wednesday night at nine
Speaker 1: pm Central, anyway, brighten up your Wednesdays. You always got
Speaker 1: something to look forward to because we will be doing
Speaker 1: this forever for the rest of time. Even when we die,
Speaker 1: we will tune into your radio frequency and give you
Speaker 1: messages somehow. Probably you know what I mean. Yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: So if you want to be a part of that
Speaker 1: Wonderwiz Patreon dot com slash Metamistics and sign up for
Speaker 1: the Wonder Wiz Day Tier. Just want to throw that
Speaker 1: out there. We're also on on YouTube, so if you
Speaker 1: want to go to YouTube dot com slash metamistics, you
Speaker 1: can go over there. I can't guarantee that there's not
Speaker 1: gonna be any commercials, but if the commercials don't bother you,
Speaker 1: then YouTube is totally fine. And to be honest, even
Speaker 1: if you're on Patreon, go subscribe on YouTube as well.
Speaker 1: I mean it really helps support the algorithm. Help support
Speaker 1: the show helps that out big time. And another way
Speaker 1: that you'll be able to support the show is by
Speaker 1: leaving a review, leaving five stars. Whatever you do, whatever
Speaker 1: you're listening to on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or elsewhere,
Speaker 1: leaving that review and leaving that five stars, even if
Speaker 1: you just say, hey, Sean, Sean is one sexy beast,
Speaker 1: it helps the algorithm. It helps pump the show, even
Speaker 1: the slightest little thing. We have people to come on
Speaker 1: and leave one stars. Shout out to the individual. You
Speaker 1: know who you are. You're helping out the algorithm. We
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Yeah yeah, And also you can come check
Speaker 1: us out on Instagram and TikTok. We try and post
Speaker 1: as many clips of you know shows as we possibly
Speaker 1: can for those who are just listening and you want
Speaker 1: to be a to maybe see what our faces look like,
Speaker 1: or our guest faces look like, or tune in to
Speaker 1: the most awesome moments during each episode. Those short clips
Speaker 1: will be up on Instagram and TikTok, so come check
Speaker 1: it out. That being said, The Page of Pentacles tarot
Speaker 1: card meaning the Page of Pentacles, depicts a young man
Speaker 1: standing in a grassy field of blooming flowers, and the
Speaker 1: distance behind him is a small patch of trees and
Speaker 1: a newly plowed field, promising an abundant harvest. The mountain
Speaker 1: range and the horizon signifies the upcoming challenges and obstacles
Speaker 1: that the Page must surmount along his journey. The Page
Speaker 1: holds a gold coin in his hand and examines it carefully,
Speaker 1: as if to discover how to manifest even more gold
Speaker 1: and abundance. Beautiful. So the upright meaning to it is manifestation,
Speaker 1: financial opportunity, and skilled development. Oh good things. I dig it.
Speaker 1: So do we want to dig in a little bit deeper?
Speaker 1: I think we should. I think so. The page of Pentacles,
Speaker 1: like the page of all four tarot suits, brings a
Speaker 1: welcome message of new beginnings, inspiration, and initial stages of
Speaker 1: a creative project or venture. Which is funny because this
Speaker 1: is my first episode with metamistics in Arizona. Yeah dude, well,
Speaker 1: just on a personal level, welcome. Since pentacles rule the
Speaker 1: material realm and correspond to the element of Earth, this
Speaker 1: page symbolizes a burgeoning awareness of the value of money, wealth, possessions, career,
Speaker 1: and physical health, and how to manifest more of these
Speaker 1: material blessings. You welcome new opportunities to your material life,
Speaker 1: a new job, a new business, a financial windfall, and
Speaker 1: wish to discover how to turn your dreams into reality.
Speaker 1: When the Page of Pentacles appears in the tarot, you
Speaker 1: are tapping into your ability to manifest a personal goal
Speaker 1: or dream, and may be in the midst of a
Speaker 1: new project such as a hobby, a business venture, or
Speaker 1: the start of a new educational experience. You're excited about
Speaker 1: the possibilities and potential of what you put your mind to,
Speaker 1: knowing that you can create whatever you want with focused
Speaker 1: attention and action. That said, this page does not specify
Speaker 1: the fulfillment of dreams as much as the initial motivation
Speaker 1: and energy. To begin the process of tuning those dreams
Speaker 1: into reality, you need to put in place clear plans
Speaker 1: for achieving your dreams and goals. Stay focused on the
Speaker 1: practical and tangible elements, keeping your feet planted on the
Speaker 1: ground and not getting carried away, always looking for the next,
Speaker 1: realistic and achievable step forward. Your common sense and a
Speaker 1: pragmatic approach will lead you to a solution that works.
Speaker 1: And the quest to materialize his dreams. The Page of
Speaker 1: Pentacles is an avid student and seeks to learn the
Speaker 1: skills that will ensure his success in the long term.
Speaker 1: The page of Pentacles often appears when you are ready
Speaker 1: to up level your skills and learn something new so
Speaker 1: that you can manifest your dreams. See this card as
Speaker 1: an invitation to take a class, continue your education, or
Speaker 1: start an apprenticeship. Even if you are already prosperous in
Speaker 1: your current field, the page of Pentacles encourages you to
Speaker 1: try something new and discover another aspect of yourself. The
Speaker 1: more skills you bring to your portfolio, the more goals
Speaker 1: and dreams you can achieve. The page of Pentacles may
Speaker 1: show you that you are considering a new business or
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial venture, or you are in the initial stages of
Speaker 1: setting up the company to be financially successful and abundant
Speaker 1: in the long term. You might be new to this,
Speaker 1: but you have to you have the enthusiasm, commitment, and
Speaker 1: devotedness to see this project through. Love it, amen, brother,
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 3: You know when it comes to the things that it takes,
Speaker 3: you know, for someone to be successful. You look at
Speaker 3: all these people that are you know, they have these
Speaker 3: big businesses or they're just successful and happy you know,
Speaker 3: they the thing that they have is no different from
Speaker 3: what you have. The only thing that's different is the
Speaker 3: mindset and the willingness to spend that time and attention
Speaker 3: on a particular thing and then see it through.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: And when you come to a boundary or you come
Speaker 3: to an obstacle, you know, don't don't let that scare
Speaker 3: you away. You know that that obstacle is only going
Speaker 3: to make you stronger. It's going to allow you to
Speaker 3: learn something new and just keep pushing forward.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I think that they just you know,
Speaker 1: most people who are successful, and I don't I don't
Speaker 1: even want to, you know, just connect successfulness to happiness
Speaker 1: and living the right way. I mean, you know, just
Speaker 1: whatever makes you feel the most content and happy, I
Speaker 1: would say is the most successful that you can possibly be. Yep.
Speaker 1: And so those people, the thing that they learned how
Speaker 1: to do was to get out of their own way.
Speaker 1: We are the biggest obstacles. We talk shit more on
Speaker 1: ourselves than anybody else. We are the ones that are
Speaker 1: pumping the disgusting food that is terrible for our body
Speaker 1: and for our brain. We're the ones that's not getting
Speaker 1: enough sleep. Whenever we know that we need this amount
Speaker 1: of sleep in order to you know, have a full
Speaker 1: motor and a full engine the next day. Right, we're
Speaker 1: the ones that are are to our own detriment if
Speaker 1: we don't know how to use this vehicle of the human.
Speaker 1: That's it. So yeah, solid card, dude. Yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to hit home. Get out of your own way, man,
Speaker 1: Get out of that way, dude, get out of it.
Speaker 1: So anyhow, sean any parting words to the One as
Speaker 1: we getting we get ready to go into this meditation, sir.
Speaker 1: I love the information, man, I really did.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to enjoy looking through this lens and
Speaker 3: I think it just gives a fresh a fresh outlook
Speaker 3: on things, you know, and just explore that. And and
Speaker 3: to thank you, you know, to the one for for
Speaker 3: listening to us try to figure it out, you know,
Speaker 3: and you're you're on this journey along with us, and
Speaker 3: you know, I hope some of that resonated hopefully.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's Look, it's not a it's not just
Speaker 1: a dream. It could just be reality if you accept it, right,
Speaker 1: you know, because i mean, hey, life could be a
Speaker 1: dream anyway. You may as well dream something fun, not
Speaker 1: as well have some fun doing it. With that being said,
Speaker 1: if panpsychism came here and it's on you anything, it's
Speaker 1: that you don't know what you don't know, So don't
Speaker 1: just get weird, stay weird. All right, Seun? How was that, sir?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 3: So going into the meditation, I know that you explained
Speaker 3: what the meditation was going to be of, but for
Speaker 3: whatever reason, when I went into it, I was still
Speaker 3: thinking of just the consciousness conversation and everything else.
Speaker 1: But then I saw.
Speaker 3: Like, in like my mind's I like, it looked like
Speaker 3: a like a like a set of like like a ladder.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a set of statis.
Speaker 3: It was a ladder going up right, And so I'm like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: well I'll run with this, you know. I started climbing it,
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, after a little bit
Speaker 3: of climbing that, there was an elevator that was coming
Speaker 3: from from below and it was coming pretty fast, and
Speaker 3: I was like, oh shit, you know, And so for
Speaker 3: somehow I was able to just kind of leap onto that,
Speaker 3: and this elevator was just going fast right, and all
Speaker 3: of a sudden it was out of the structure that
Speaker 3: we were in, and it wasn't even attached to anything
Speaker 3: and just going up like pretty fast to the point
Speaker 3: where it was like beginning to leave Earth, you know.
Speaker 3: And so it was just this rising, lifting feeling. And
Speaker 3: then I started to like climb down the side of
Speaker 3: it somehow like maybe we were I was beyond where
Speaker 3: gravity was really taking hold, and so I climbed down
Speaker 3: the side of it, and then I was hanging off
Speaker 3: of the bottom of it by like the corner of it,
Speaker 3: and I was just like looking down and I can
Speaker 3: see like the Earth and just see it as it's,
Speaker 3: you know, without the borders and everything else, just Earth
Speaker 3: as it, you know, I don't know the energy of itself, dude,
Speaker 3: and just looking at that, and then it just kept
Speaker 3: going and then I, for whatever reason, kind of left
Speaker 3: that experience and then I just started to focus on
Speaker 3: what I was seeing with my physical eyes, and it,
Speaker 3: to be honest, dude, it started to get a little
Speaker 3: bit somewhat psychedelic, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like saying shapes. And at one point it looked like
Speaker 1: there was like a figure that like walked by like
Speaker 1: real quick, like you know, like in the distance kind
Speaker 1: of if there's distance within what I can see behind
Speaker 1: my eyelids, you know. But it was just it was
Speaker 1: a trip, dude. It was pretty cool though.
Speaker 3: But I wasn't even thinking about the Kundalini Rising going
Speaker 3: into that, and I just see a ladder like this,
Speaker 3: like within an elevator shaft, and then I climb it
Speaker 3: and it was a pretty It was a trip, dude. Wow,
Speaker 3: felt like I was within a dream, like a dream,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It took me there too, actually, like it like I
Speaker 1: forgot that I was meditating, yeah, you know, like after
Speaker 1: a while, I like, I mean, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1: The first probably if I had to guess, five or
Speaker 1: six minutes, I was like, man, just get there, come on,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, you know. And and I was like, it's
Speaker 1: almost like I forgot how to meditate. It was strange,
Speaker 1: and and so I was like all right, and I
Speaker 1: just kept on repeating, so render dissolve, Surrender, dissolve, and
Speaker 1: I just kept on saying that in my mind like
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, And dude, I felt like I eventually
Speaker 1: melted into everything almost like like melted ice cream, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It was almost like colors like that.
Speaker 1: But it was like and then I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: show me what I'm working with, Like, show me the
Speaker 1: uh am I am? I is it possible that I
Speaker 1: can communicate with an alien, an ancestor a god, a spirit,
Speaker 1: a something at all? Right, dude's so strange. It was like,
Speaker 1: have you ever been to uh to Oatman, Arizona? Yes? Actually, okay,
Speaker 1: so you remember like those old school little like singular jails, right,
Speaker 1: like it only has like room enough for one person
Speaker 1: to go in, right, like very old looking. Right. I
Speaker 1: saw that, but inside wasn't a human or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It was just one fucking giant eyeball. And it was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that was like an allegory for something.
Speaker 1: Like the way I kind of took it was that
Speaker 1: it's like maybe that's the all seeing eye, the all
Speaker 1: that is, the all that experiences the all, and right
Speaker 1: now it's behind bars because it thinks that it's an
Speaker 1: individual or maybe I think I'm an individual, and once
Speaker 1: I get rid of that individuality, then that I is
Speaker 1: no longer contained behind bars. It was some kind of
Speaker 1: meaning like that, And isn't it weird that like you
Speaker 1: can look at something and like an entire message comes
Speaker 1: from just by being in that presence or whatever yeah,
Speaker 1: like because it didn't talk or anything, you know, and
Speaker 1: but I only saw it for a couple of seconds,
Speaker 1: but it like it was like still like sticking in
Speaker 1: my mind. And then it was like I just dissolved
Speaker 1: into nothing like it and I and I started to
Speaker 1: feel it because at first I was like because I
Speaker 1: was struggling to get there and everything, and then I
Speaker 1: started to feel as if the void was starting to
Speaker 1: envelop me. And usually usually that would like scare you
Speaker 1: know me or whatever, right, and I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: let's go. I want to go to the void. Bring
Speaker 1: me back to the void. I want to go back there,
Speaker 1: you know, because you know, the first initial time, at
Speaker 1: least for what I can remember, it was like frightening
Speaker 1: and not exactly pleasant. And ultimately that was all sparked
Speaker 1: by my own fear, you know. So what happens if
Speaker 1: I go into that void as like a I don't know,
Speaker 1: like just to observe it and not necessarily to judge
Speaker 1: it or judge myself or anything like that. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: that's what it felt like. That's I don't know, that
Speaker 1: was it was a weird. That was a weird meditation.
Speaker 1: I dig it saying, I know, I like that.
Speaker 3: I like that, and it's cool how just like you said,
Speaker 3: seeing a symbol of something like the eyeball being maybe
Speaker 3: possibly representing consciousness itself. You know, we were talking about
Speaker 3: that earlier on how people feel like we're trapped, you know,
Speaker 3: and I don't think that's the case, and I think
Speaker 3: you agree with me. And you seeing that consciousness within
Speaker 3: that jail and it's like, yeah, you can put you
Speaker 3: can definitely garner some meaning out of that, you know.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting just how the mind works in that way,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you really think about it, if
Speaker 1: our consciousness is you know, somewhat at least surface level
Speaker 1: contained withinside like this meat suit, it almost is kind
Speaker 1: of in a jail because it's it's not able to
Speaker 1: get out and escape and be all that is. It's
Speaker 1: it just has one narrow view of the time being. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean narrow in the sense of like whatever anything
Speaker 1: that is less than everything.
Speaker 3: M Yeah, the version of itself that is for the
Speaker 3: time being forced to I don't even want to say force,
Speaker 3: but for the time being is observing things just through.
Speaker 1: You, you know, just through the pinholes.
Speaker 3: Through through your ego and your ideologies and your ways
Speaker 3: of looking at things, you know what I mean. It
Speaker 3: has to interpret everything that it observes through that filter,
Speaker 3: the filter that is Jonathan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's almost like the glass shard, thinking that
Speaker 1: it's just a shard and not containing the whole, encompassing everything. Yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: fuck I love this stuff. Yeah, it really does make
Speaker 1: you contemplate.
Speaker 3: That's the best part, man, That's that's where the fun begins,
Speaker 3: you know, contemplating the scene where it takes you, you know,
Speaker 3: because I bet it won't take you where you think
Speaker 3: it's going to take you.
Speaker 1: Definitely not interesting about it. Yeah, like.
Speaker 3: Me not even thinking about being next to a ladder
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden there's one Okay, well let
Speaker 3: me climb the ladder. So it's almost like you see something,
Speaker 3: you observe it, and then you when you pull up
Speaker 3: that thread and see where it takes you.
Speaker 1: M And that's that's the fun part, that whole vibe.
Speaker 1: It was almost like I was willing, like more than
Speaker 1: willing to embrace the unknown. Mm hmm. You know, it
Speaker 1: was like, be more neutral about it. Whatever the unknown is.
Speaker 1: I know it's going to be so sick, it's going
Speaker 1: to be so awesome and I cannot wait to experience
Speaker 1: it rather than being fearful of the unknown, right you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, giving that second opportunity to observe the void,
Speaker 3: but through a different point of view.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, good ship man, good stuff of
Speaker 1: the mind. You know, as a playground never gets boring.
Speaker 1: You know, it has its teeters, and it's and it's totters, you.
Speaker 3: Know, and it's dues. You know, one day we'll bring
Speaker 3: it back that it exists, make a we it's there.
Speaker 3: It didn't just disappear, No, no, no.
Speaker 1: Way, definitely not Anyhow, the one it was a good conversation.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you guys really enjoyed kind of like this kind
Speaker 1: of talk. I think I saw like a TikTok or
Speaker 1: something that was talking about pan psychism, and I was like,
Speaker 1: we've talked about pantheism, what's up with panpsychism? And to
Speaker 1: be honest, I don't think they're that different.
Speaker 3: No, No, I mean there's just what you call a
Speaker 3: couple areas that maybe don't line up, but other ones
Speaker 3: definitely definitely vibe together, and you can mix and match
Speaker 3: and interchange certain verbiage and yeah, dude, yeah, it's all
Speaker 3: it's all one thing anyways, you know, let's be real.
Speaker 1: I don't even question that anymore. No, no, how could
Speaker 1: you At this point. We're too deep. We're too deep,
Speaker 1: all right, guys, We're gonna boogiep out of here. We'll
Speaker 1: see you on the flip side. O. Guys, keep