WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:01.840 Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you 2 00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:03.600 know this about me, but I'm a bit of a 3 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:05.599 fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but 4 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:06.360 I like fun too. 5 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:07.040 It's a thing. 6 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:09.119 And now the truth is out there, I can tell 7 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.279 you about my favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. 8 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:15.320 They have hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, 9 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:18.000 with new games released each week. You can play for 10 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.399 free anytime, anywhere, and each day brings a new chance 11 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:24.359 to collect daily bonuses. So join me and the fun. 12 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.399 Sign up now at chumbacasino dot com. 13 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.640 No, we're not necessarily dapoi where everybody lost et terms 14 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:30.519 Conditions eighteen plus. 15 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.520 With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just 16 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:34.520 about anywhere. 17 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.240 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 18 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.200 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 19 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:43.479 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 20 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.119 just these cash prizes add up quick, so I suggest 21 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:48.159 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 22 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:49.320 start getting lucky. 23 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000 Play for free at Lucky landslots dot com. Are you 24 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:56.759 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by law 25 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.880 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply see website for d. 26 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, the most Shocking 27 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about him Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 29 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:33.439 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 32 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:45.840 Good evening. Chances are you've already met the son of 33 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:51.359 Sam in movies, documentaries, books, etc. May I introduce you 34 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:55.959 to David, a fellow human being with familiar vulnerabilities. The 35 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.439 monster you met in print collides with the man I 36 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.200 met in person, irrefutably, the precious lives he ended screamed 37 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.280 from the graves about his barbarism. Yet my one hundred 38 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:11.800 hours thirty four sessions with him will open your eyes 39 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:15.639 to a guy who resembles your brother or friend. Here's David, 40 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.599 a life for at Schwanagunk Correctional who still scratches his 41 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.919 head about what possessed him decades ago in the city 42 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:27.039 that has mythologized his crimes ever since. May I warn 43 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.840 you that when you meet David, you will not look 44 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:33.240 into the eyes of a monster, but a mirror. The 45 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.800 book that we're featuring this evening is Monster Mirror. One 46 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.479 hundred hours were David Berkowitz, once known as Son of Sam, 47 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.680 with my special guest author, doctor Michael Caperelli. Welcome to 48 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:48.840 the program, and thank you very much for this interview, 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:50.360 Doctor Michael Caperelli. 50 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.439 Thank you, Dan for the opportunity to talk to your 51 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:59.280 audience about this analysis of David Berkowitz's convicted serial killer 52 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.439 known as the Son of Sam. 53 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.919 And thank you very much, very very interesting take on 54 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:09.800 this infamous killer, David Berkowitz, who, as you write, his 55 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.360 akronym Son of Sam. He terrorized New York City from 56 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:18.360 July twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six to August tenth, nineteen 57 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.879 seventy seven. Six people were killed while seven were wounded 58 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.319 close range forty four caliber revolver. Police and media were 59 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:31.599 taunted with catch me if you can letters signed Wicked King, Wicker, 60 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.759 Duke of Death, and Son of Sam. Right away in 61 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:39.479 your introduction you talk about the horn effect cognitive bias. 62 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.240 Tell us what you mean by the horn effect and 63 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:44.039 how it relates to this story. 64 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.000 Well, if you've ever seen a movie, I'm sure you've 65 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.360 seen many on psychopaths, on those that commit senseless violence, 66 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:58.080 It's never a positive depiction for justifiable reasons. Some of 67 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.840 the acts that are committed by guys like David Berkowitz, 68 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.919 Jeffrey Dahma, Charles Manson. We read about these acts or 69 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:07.879 we watch them on television, and right away we begin 70 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:12.479 to see these people as monsters. In any humanity whatsoever 71 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:17.959 is completely overlooked. The problem with that is you and 72 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.959 I can have in our very household, maybe a child, 73 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:25.560 a sibling, maybe even a spouse. We could be up 74 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.759 close and personal with someone who has within them an 75 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:35.560 inferno of rage and never detect that particular person as 76 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.480 a person who could commit atrocities. I mean, you see 77 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.680 it all the time news clippings. Someone commits a crime. 78 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:45.000 Let's say it's a young man, he goes into a school, 79 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:47.319 he shoots the school up. Probably one of the most 80 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.839 popular commentaries is I would have never suspected this person 81 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:56.120 because we have this idea of psychopaths as being monsters. 82 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.920 So the horn effect, in simplicity, means to see someon 83 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:04.000 one according to a character defect, and to not be 84 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.160 able to see beyond that character defect, to put horns 85 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:09.959 on their head, and there's a lot of you know, 86 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:14.720 negative ramifications for a society and for an individual when 87 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.680 we see the psychopaths through this horn effect bias, and 88 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.360 how we were able to understand them in our minds. 89 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.199 Give our audience your background as a doctor and also 90 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:30.920 how you came to enter this story. In December twenty 91 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:32.879 twenty one with David Burkowitz. 92 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.639 Yeah, so I have mailed David Berkowitz a copy of 93 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:39.160 a book I had previously written called Doctor Jesus. It's 94 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.360 a book on mental health issues from a Christian perspective. 95 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:45.519 I mailed it to David, not knowing him, having heard 96 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:50.079 his story on a television program about his religious conversion. 97 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.879 I've worked with prisoners for the last twenty years. I 98 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:56.600 passed at a church in the Inner City for sixteen 99 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:59.680 years and had a heart for those that called a 100 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:02.800 compart if you will, for those that are in prisons. 101 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.240 As a kid, I visited my dad who was locked 102 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:08.720 up for a brief period of time felt like an eternity, 103 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:10.279 but at that time was maybe about a year and 104 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:12.480 a half of visiting him. So I had this compassion 105 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.480 towards inmates. I mailed David a copy of this book, 106 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.279 Doctor Jesus, and he must have read it quickly, because 107 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.040 within two weeks, David Berkowitz in May seven eight a 108 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.439 nineteen seventy six, mailed me back. It was the very 109 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.839 first letter I've ever received from him. It was in 110 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.399 early twenty twenty two, and he requested that I visit him. 111 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:37.720 He believed that with my qualifications both as a clergyman 112 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.680 because he too was a Christian, as well as a 113 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:44.560 PhD in Advanced studies in human behavior, he thought I 114 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.879 was the ideal candidate to tell his story from both 115 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:51.600 a spiritual as well as a psychological vantage point. 116 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.959 Now tell us more about your first visit with David 117 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:57.600 Berkowitz April first, twenty twenty two. 118 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.120 Well, you know, I meet David on that particular day 119 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.439 in April. It's depending upon how you define COVID. It's 120 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.839 during the COVID pandemic. I say that because I had 121 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.240 to wear a mask. David also had to wear a mask, 122 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.839 a COVID test had to be taken. I remember when 123 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:18.120 I first showed the correctional office of my ID. I 124 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.680 told him who I was, what I did. He asked 125 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:24.079 me the question, does David know you're here to visit him, 126 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.000 and I said, yes, he requested my visit. He said, 127 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.199 that's surprising because he doesn't meet with many people, so 128 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:32.480 that was flattering. I've been asked a question often when 129 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.920 you're nervous. Again, I work with prisoners for a long time, 130 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.360 so there really wasn't a lot of fear. Definitely some awkwardness. 131 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.360 I mean, this notorious figure the last forty six years. 132 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.360 I remember being a kid growing up. My stepdad who 133 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:48.600 raised me, was from New York City, the Bronx, right 134 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:50.639 where David grew up. New York was always a home 135 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.120 away from home. So for in my mind, he was 136 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.199 this mythologized figure. But I knew enough about human nature, 137 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.720 being a pastor, being a PhD. To that behind the 138 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:04.560 monster persona that was a man. And within the first visit, 139 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.279 probably about three and a half hours long, we established 140 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:11.600 a pretty quick rapport. We built some common ground. We 141 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.839 talked a lot about New York City, a lot about 142 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.360 common interests, the Yankees, a particular ministry known as Team 143 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.079 Challenge that David was very familiar with I've worked for 144 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:23.240 many years, and that sort of built some common ground. 145 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:28.199 And that visit was the first of thirty four sessions 146 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.519 over the next year and a half of meeting with 147 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.000 David and exploring some of the factors behind his crimes 148 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.039 as well as his life in prison over the last 149 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:38.039 forty six years. 150 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.080 Now, you're right that you are a supernaturalist with a 151 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:45.559 PhD in human behavior, and you see demonic interference and 152 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:49.440 mental health factors working in tandem. And you write about 153 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:54.360 the ancients believed that dominion interacted with natural phenomena. Discuss 154 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.279 this a little bit further, about this dominion and that 155 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.080 two thirds of the world still believe in this as well. 156 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.840 Yeah, you know, America is the minority across the globe 157 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:09.200 in dismissing the involvement of the supernatural in human behavior. 158 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:12.399 If you go to Africa, not maybe not everywhere in Africa, 159 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.279 but a lot of places, there's a heavy emphasis upon 160 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:19.200 spiritual activity. We Americans are very rational. In fact, we're 161 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.360 so rational, we're so left brained. Our heads probably tilt 162 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.399 to the left when we walk down street corners, So 163 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.320 you know, we're very rational. We emphasize what we can see, 164 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.799 what's natural. But two thirds of the world understands that 165 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.799 there's a spiritual realm of good and evil. It doesn't 166 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.320 override free will. I don't believe any man can say 167 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.480 the devil made me do it, but it does interact. 168 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:46.360 It interacts with our choices. Talk about this interaction. I 169 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:51.399 am not a supernaturalist at the expense of natural phenomenon. 170 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:55.919 In fact, I describe in great detail psychological and sociological 171 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:59.440 phenomenons that are at play within the crimes. But it 172 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:02.679 is a insisted by supernatural reality. Now, let me just 173 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.519 give you an example of this. A listener right now 174 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.480 that maybe has some trouble understanding the supernatural. How many 175 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.279 times in your life have you behaved in a way 176 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:15.559 that was out of character. Let's say you had a 177 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:19.960 temped tantrum, angry outburst, you did something or said something 178 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.840 that's not consistent with who you are, and when it 179 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.759 was all said and done, you apologize and you say, 180 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:27.799 I don't know what got into me, I don't know 181 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:31.960 what possessed me. I'm sorry I did that interesting language 182 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.519 you use, I don't know what got into me, what 183 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.360 possessed me, or I got carried away. It sort of 184 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.360 insinuates that there's a paranormal energy that can insist us 185 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.399 in doing right and wrong. And I go to great 186 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:48.720 lengths in Monstermera my book, I'm David Berkowitz. I go 187 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:53.120 to great lengths to describe the interaction between what gets 188 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:56.000 into a man as well as what comes out of him, 189 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.200 what comes out of a meaning in his psychology, the 190 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:04.559 psychological aspects of these kinds of senseless crimes. So I'm 191 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:08.360 both a supernaturalist. I'm a Christian, I believe in good 192 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.279 and evil. But I'm a PhD. I'm well studied in 193 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.480 the area of human behavior. I do believe in man's 194 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.240 involvement within his own choices in all the psychological and 195 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:19.960 sociological factors behind that. 196 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.639 You pose the question early in the book, how does 197 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:28.159 David Berkowitz explain the Son of Sam? And, replying to 198 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.279 this question, you say that involves one hundred hours of 199 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.120 data collection, data analysis, and the entirety of this book 200 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.679 that we are discussing right now. You take us to 201 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.919 his most recent parole hearing in the spring of twenty 202 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:44.879 twenty two, his tenth parole hearing. Tell us what he's 203 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.320 more interesting in bearing witness to at this parole hearing, 204 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.559 what he's more interested in conveying. 205 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.799 So David is up for parole every two years, He'll 206 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.159 be up for parole again in just a few months. 207 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.080 He doesn't have any expectations of leaving. He's going to 208 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:01.799 be seventy one years old, he's been incocerated for forty 209 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.440 six years. So he shows up at these hearings. At 210 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.320 one point he didn't show up at all, but then 211 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.639 it was perceived as arrogance on behalf of the parole board, 212 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:13.039 and he thought it was you know, he thought it 213 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:14.960 was a slap in the face to not show up, 214 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.519 so out of respect, he shows up. But he shows 215 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.639 up with the expectation of simply sharing his story, a 216 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.720 story that he calls a story of transformation. He gave 217 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:29.039 his life to Christ in nineteen eighty eight and since 218 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.799 then it's been a journey of change. That doesn't mean 219 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.639 he's perfect. David has had many character defects that he's 220 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:37.960 still working on today. In fact, in one of the 221 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.639 chapters of my book, I confront David about a character defect. 222 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:45.799 I'll let the reader discover that for themselves. But David 223 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:47.799 is by no means a perfect man. But when he 224 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.679 shows up at those hearings, he wants to tell his 225 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.720 story about how there is hope, there is the possibility 226 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.000 of redemption for anyone. And that's what he does, is 227 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.279 he shares his story. Of course, the parole always ask 228 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.759 the question David why he finds it difficult to answer, 229 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.519 because it's one of those questions. You know. The easy 230 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:11.159 trap is something we call in behavioral science puzzle reductionism, 231 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:16.279 which means to reduce complicated phenomenon to one single cause. 232 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:19.840 It would be like blaming the last block in the 233 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.000 game of Djenga for the towers collapse. You know, it's 234 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.000 not the last block. You know, it's a puld up 235 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:28.799 of blocks that leads to the collapse. And David is 236 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.799 always cautious in giving an answer because he knows human 237 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.320 nature we want a quick, easy answer. And the facts 238 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.360 are it was not one thing. It was a build 239 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.000 up of many things. And that's what he sheds light 240 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.480 on in his parole hearings, but more importantly his transformation 241 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:45.440 over the last thirty five years. 242 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.200 He uses the language even at the parole hearing though 243 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.519 you right that he fell under some kind of spell, which, 244 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:55.039 of course is is not going to be adequate for 245 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.200 any kind of parole hearing with it. 246 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:59.960 No, you know, of course, your average parole hearing is 247 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:04.320 not looking at all for a conversation about supernatural phenomenon. 248 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.440 I think David says that I fell under a spell. 249 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.519 If you're looking for the crux of why I did 250 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.480 what I did, it was demonic. If you're looking for 251 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.639 the nuances, well, that's going to take some time. And 252 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.559 that's why I say it takes one hundred hours of 253 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.039 describing was behind Son of Sam. If you want a short, 254 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.759 simple answer, diabolical. But if you want that more involved, 255 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:30.320 comprehensive answer, We've got to talk about the biological his 256 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.360 head trauma. We've got to talk about social issues like 257 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.200 the isolation that he experienced. We got to talk about 258 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:41.879 psychological issues like shame and anger and abandonment. There's a 259 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.440 lot involved in that quote unquote spell that David fell under. 260 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.320 You write about the very first things he said when 261 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.200 he was arrested, and then very interestingly, he writes about 262 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.919 retracting those statements and why, very very interesting the why. 263 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.679 Well, David initially told the NYPD August nineteen seventy seven, 264 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.039 after being arrested, that he believed he was under the 265 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:09.120 commands at the behest of Satan and committing his crimes. Now, 266 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.080 when David shows up in prison, Attica, nineteen seventy eight. 267 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:17.480 Attica is a very contentious environment. In fact, if you 268 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.600 know anything about the history of Attica, the Attica Riots 269 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.240 had taken place just a few years prior. There was 270 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.519 a lot of tension between the correctional officers and the guards. 271 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.000 He said, Mike. The atmosphere was combustible. He said. The 272 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.759 littlest thing would provoke a conflict. And here I am, 273 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.960 I'm young, I'm scared, and all of a sudden, the 274 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.360 inmates are harassing him because of his devil story. You know, 275 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:43.360 the devil talked to me through a barking dog. And 276 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.799 they're making howling sounds from the cells. I mean, they're 277 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.120 harassing him in every turn. In fact, he was stabbed 278 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:52.120 in the neck in nineteen seventy nine, a stabbing that 279 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.279 had resulted and I want to say thirty some odd 280 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.720 stitches almost killed him. So he quickly. If you read 281 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.600 a New York Times article from nineteen seventy I think 282 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.200 it was in February, it says David Berkowitz, the son 283 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.600 of Sam, retracts his devil possession story, and it was 284 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.559 pretty much I want to go along to get along. 285 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.279 I don't want to say anything that's going to stir 286 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.879 up the hornet's nest. It's too combustible the atmosphere, and 287 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.720 I'm not looking for problems with anybody. 288 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.639 You asked, though, too, about the infamous purp walk where 289 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.919 he is seen as cocky and has a smirk on 290 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.399 his face. You ask him about this, and at first 291 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:31.159 you're very skeptical, But what's his explanation for this very 292 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.000 famous photo. 293 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.200 You know, that purp walk goes right back to your 294 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.919 first question about the horn effect. Most of us have 295 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:43.159 branded in our minds David Berkowitz with a cocky what 296 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.200 they call the Mona Lisa's smile back in the seventies 297 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.279 when he's escorted by police officers outside of the Brooklyn Precinct. 298 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.120 We've got that cocky smirk in our minds, and we 299 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.399 see him as uncaring. We see him as evil, you know, 300 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.039 gloating in his crimes. And Dave said, Mike, there was 301 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.480 a lot of shame behind that smile, And at first 302 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:07.960 I was a little suspicious of that, but then I 303 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.200 had remembered, you know, I didn't put this in the book, 304 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.759 but I remembered a funeral that my grandmother had passed away, 305 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.519 and a friend came to the funeral and they smiled 306 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.839 while greeting my family. My family took it very insulting. 307 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.240 They said, why is this girl smiling? It's grandma's funeral. 308 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:23.839 But I knew her. I knew she was nervous. I 309 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.640 knew her neurotic energy had made its way through her. 310 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:31.279 You know her facial expressions and a smile sometimes is 311 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.039 more of a cover up for some inadequate feelings. In 312 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.119 the case of David Berkowitz, a lot of shame. In fact, 313 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.359 I would argue that cockiness in general, even if you 314 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:44.240 say his smile was cocky, Cockiness in general, arrogance, even 315 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.960 to the extremes narcissism, is a cover up or feelings 316 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:52.680 of inferiority. I've known very few people that have a 317 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:58.119 superiority complex that are truly confident. Most of those folks 318 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.680 with that kind of ear of superior already from pastoring 319 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.920 for two decades. There's deep shame, deep self loathing, and 320 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:09.519 there's an overcompensation through their persona. And I think that 321 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.599 that's what you're seeing on that perp walk. I think 322 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.559 it's just as David said. It may be cockiness on 323 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:18.680 the surface, but it's deep shame and self loathing underneath. 324 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.079 You got to the isolation that he experienced and the 325 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.720 deep shame with the examination of his childhood, and you 326 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.480 talk about his adopted parents, but he did not grow 327 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.640 up realizing they were his adopted parents. Not in Pearl 328 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.880 Berkowitz tell us about his early childhood and the event 329 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.319 where it is revealed about his actual or what he's 330 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.200 told about his actual birth mother and his birth. 331 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:52.960 David emphasizes often how nurturing and devout his adopted parents 332 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:56.839 or NAT in Pearl Berkowitz, they adopted him at four 333 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.359 days old. In fact, not only David, but anybody that 334 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.839 knows those people. And I talk to some other people 335 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.839 that knew Nat and David or not in Pearl, very 336 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:09.640 loving people. But David from the day he was taken 337 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:14.119 home from Brooklyn Hospital, picked up four days old, driven 338 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.119 to the Bronx. From the day who's picked up at 339 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.599 the hospital, he was a very difficult baby, not easy 340 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:26.759 to console, very hyperactive child, very resistant towards Nat in 341 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:31.000 Pearl's love, he said Mike. They tried every way to 342 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:34.440 show affection, but it was like taking a piece of 343 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.240 tape and trying to stick it to a wet surface. 344 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:40.640 It just wouldn't stick. Now I go in in the 345 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:44.480 book some of the what we call primal wounds. You know, 346 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:46.680 if you read a book called Primal Wounds, it's all 347 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.319 about the psychology of adoption. There's a bond that is 348 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.759 formed between a baby or as we would say, a fetus, 349 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.720 in the mom for nine months. We think development or 350 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.720 learning begins outside the womb. It does not begins in 351 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.680 the way we know through countless studies and behavioral science 352 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.599 that an infant a point of birth can recognize a 353 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.440 mom's smell in the sound of her voice in a 354 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.960 room full of strangers. So this is a serious bond 355 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.480 that forms, and when that bond is severed, it creates 356 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.319 a trauma. Whether that trauma is cognitively recalled or not. 357 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:21.839 It may not be the mind, but it is remembered 358 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.680 by the central nervous system. And for some people that 359 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.160 are adopted, even at a young age, not all. I 360 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.279 can't explain why it's some and not all, and there's 361 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.680 probably a lot of other variables there, but for some 362 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:37.519 it creates attachment disorders, and David Burkwitz was certainly one 363 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.880 of those. Now we know through some FBI analysis that 364 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.920 the serial killer is sixteen times more likely to have 365 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.759 been adopted than the general population. Now, am I saying 366 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.480 every adoptees become a serial killer? Absolutely not, That's not 367 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.480 what I'm saying. I'm all for adoption, But I am 368 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.519 saying that we're going to look at this and see 369 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.039 it as a potential trauma. M Burco was his case. 370 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.519 It caused an inability to bond at a very young age, 371 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.279 despite his mother and father's best efforts. At five or 372 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:11.440 six years old, they sit him down and they tell 373 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.960 him the news. They tell him that he's his real mother. 374 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.519 Key word real, which you know, back then they were ignorant, 375 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:20.759 they didn't know any better. Their intentions were well meaning, 376 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:24.519 probably not the best choice of words, because if my 377 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:28.359 mom my real mom, my biological mom, they said that 378 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.319 she died when he was born. If she's my real mom, 379 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:35.160 what does that make you? Does that mean you're not real? 380 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.279 Does that mean what we share, what we have is 381 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.519 something less than authentic? So that phrase real already The 382 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.759 bond severance really played on David's psychology. He actually believed 383 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.880 the experienced survivor's guilt at a young age. He actually 384 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.400 believed that because he survived his birth and his mother 385 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:57.160 supposedly died. He believed that he was responsible for her death, 386 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.440 that he killed his mother, maybe by kicking too hard 387 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.720 when he came out of the womb, but he believed 388 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.000 himself to be the culprit behind her death. So at 389 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:08.480 a very young age, he starts to see himself in 390 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.640 this very warped, twisted light. Now some may think, well, 391 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:14.960 that's ridiculous. How could a five to six year old 392 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.799 think that they're the cause of their mother's death. But 393 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.799 that line of reasoning is very consistent with let's say, 394 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:25.640 Jeanepget's theory of cognitive development. Doctor pg had studied children 395 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.759 for decades and found out that children are very egocentric 396 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.000 in their thought process, so they believed themselves to be 397 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.559 the cause of events that are outside their control. And 398 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.240 for David Berkowitz, he believed himself to be the culprit 399 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.799 of his mother's death, and it began to shape his 400 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.519 self image at a very young age, and interestingly enough, 401 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:49.359