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Every 33 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 34 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 35 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:48.400 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 36 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.280 Eleven women went missing over the spring and summer of 37 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.840 nineteen eighty eight in New Bedford, Massachusetts, an old fishing 38 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.280 port known as the Whaling City. In Shallow Graves, investigative 39 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.640 reporter Maureen Boyle tells the story of a case that 40 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.599 has haunted New England for thirty years. The crimes, the 41 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.599 skeletal remains of nine of the women, aged nineteen to 42 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:15.800 thirty six, were discovered near highways around New Bedford. Some 43 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.120 had clearly been strangled, others were so badly decomposed the 44 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:23.240 police were left to guests how they had died. The investigators, 45 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:30.439 Massachusetts State troopers mary Anne Dill and Josie Gonsalves, were 46 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.800 the two constants in the complex caste of city, county 47 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:38.080 and state comps and prosecutors. They knew the victims, the suspects, 48 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.520 and the drug and crime riddled streets of New Bedford. 49 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:43.240 They were present at the beginning of the case, and 50 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:47.800 they stayed to the bitter end the suspects. Kenneth Ponte, 51 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:50.599 a New Bedford attorney and deputy sheriff with an appetite 52 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.280 for drugs and prostitutes, landed in the investigative crossairs from 53 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.000 the start. He was indicted by a grand jury in 54 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.360 the murder of one of the victims, but those charges 55 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.199 were later drawn. Anthony DeGrazia was a loner who appeared 56 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:09.599 to befit the classical classic serial killer profile. Horrific childhood abuse, charming, charismatic, 57 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.199 but prone to bursts of violence. He hunted prostitutes in 58 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.159 the city by day and served at a Catholic church 59 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:20.719 by day. Which of these two was the real killer 60 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:24.199 or was it someone else entirely? Maureen Boyle first broke 61 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:26.280 the story in nineteen eighty eight and stayed with it 62 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.080 for decades, drawing on more than one hundred interviews, along 63 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.759 with police reports, first person accounts, and field reporting. Both 64 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.039 during the killings and more recently, Shallow Graves brings the 65 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.479 reader behind the scenes of the investigation, onto the streets 66 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:42.800 of the city and into the homes of the family 67 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.120 still hoping for answers. The book they were featuring the 68 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.400 seating is Shallow Graves, The Hunt for the New Bedford 69 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.879 Highway serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author 70 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:56.240 Maureen Boyle. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 71 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.719 much for a greeting this interview. Maureen Boyle. 72 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.159 Hi, thanks so much for having me, Dan, I really 73 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.479 appreciate it, and I appreciate you a spreading word about 74 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:10.039 this case. Well, thank you very much for your community 75 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:11.360 incredible I appreciate it. 76 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.840 Yes, thank you. It was incredible book and an incredible case, 77 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:21.560 and thank you for this. Tell us first how you 78 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.439 came to be the author of Shallow Grades. How did 79 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.319 you become first involved with this case? Tell us a 80 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:28.000 little bit about that. 81 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.000 In nineteen eighty eight, I was a reporter at the 82 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.720 Sender Times of New Bedford, that's daily newspaper on New Bedford, Massachusetts. 83 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.839 I've been a longtime police reporter and I've done a 84 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:50.720 number of pieces and about some drug addicted women who 85 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.759 are working the streets in the city. You know, you 86 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.519 have to go back to nineteen eighty eight, where people 87 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.720 really didn't talk about opiate addiction like they do today. 88 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.720 And what I was discovering back then before this case 89 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.560 came out, that there was a number of women who 90 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:15.720 had been been assaulted on the street who because of 91 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:21.439 their addiction, were putting themselves in harms way people would 92 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:25.480 consider harm's way. And I developed a real affinity for 93 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.160 the women who are addicted and were really struggling to 94 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.319 get out of that lifestyle but really couldn't because of 95 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:36.839 the draw of heroin and how it really had it 96 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:44.399 been in its grasp. Back in eighty eight, slowly I 97 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.600 noticed that women started going missing. There was a detective 98 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.279 in the New Bedford PDA who was looking at one 99 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:58.759 particular disappearance, and almost by happenstance, he discovered that a 100 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.240 number of other women had gone missing. They didn't all 101 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.199 go missing all at once, they were all adults, so 102 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:12.120 there really was not any big alarm initially because the 103 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:17.519 body hadn't the remains didn't show up immediately. The first 104 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:21.240 body showed up on Fourth of July weekend in nineteen 105 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:24.639 eighty outside of New Bedford, on a small town called 106 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.680 Freetown on the highway. Second body showed up in Dartmouth, 107 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:33.680 which is another town outside of New Bedford, you know, 108 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.959 at the end of July, and then another body found 109 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:42.879 was eventually found in August, and then they started showing up. 110 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.399 I'm sorry that another one was found in October. So 111 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.759 they all started showing up, not all at once, so 112 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:56.439 it was a There was no big alarm initially, but 113 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:01.160 I was interested in it because the sheer number of 114 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:06.120 women who had gone missing and the detective's concern about it, 115 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.399 and so I started reporting on missing women. And as 116 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:15.480 the body started showing up with increased frequency where the 117 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.360 skeletal remains, such when we knew that there was a 118 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:20.480 serial killer in the area. 119 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:26.000 As you read in the book, you introduced you introduced 120 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.879 the character of Nancy Piva, and also her mother, Judy Santos, 121 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:37.240 and Nancy's daughter Jill. As you read in the book, yeah, 122 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.720 pardon me. With Nancy, tell us a little bit about 123 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.920 her life, just to demonstrate what you've been just talking 124 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:45.959 about and alluding to. So tell us a little bit 125 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.279 about the relationship that she had with her husband, Frankie 126 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.160 or and tell us a little bit about her life 127 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:55.879 and her use of heroin and what had happened. 128 00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:01.399 Yeah, Nancy was came from a class, middle class family 129 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:07.079 from the north end of New Bedford. They you know, parents, 130 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:13.120 owned a house. She got married, went to secretarial school, 131 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.120 got a divorce if she had a child, got a divorce, 132 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:24.199 developed a relationship with a long term relationship with another person, 133 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:30.079 had a second child, and then after that breakup, she 134 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:36.000 got involved with an individual who obviously her parents, her 135 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:41.159 family did not approve of. He was not from New Bedford, 136 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:46.200 he had a criminal record, and it appears that he 137 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.120 is the one who introduced her to heroin. She was 138 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.320 not a heroine hard core drug user prior to meeting him, 139 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.559 and once she began using heroin, her life just fell 140 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:09.360 apart and she wound up. She disappeared because while she 141 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.080 was walking home trying to she was going to court 142 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.519 the next day and she needed money for a court fine, 143 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:21.919 and she just she expected that she's going to go 144 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:26.720 to jail and was never seen again. But her background 145 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:33.720 was middle class family, working working parents in tact family, 146 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:39.320 and she did not start using heroin until she was 147 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.320 in her thirties, and right from the start everything just 148 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:52.279 fell apart. She had a loving harbor and her kids 149 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:55.399 adored her. M. I'm sorry. 150 00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:00.879 Yes, yes, you talk about and introduced Detective dextra Duer, 151 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.399 and you talk about the limited technology at that time 152 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:09.600 in nineteen eighty eight, just to remind people there was 153 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.080 a time of typewriters and payphones and white out when 154 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:14.840 you made a mistake when you were typing. But tell 155 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:20.559 us a little bit about detective Dextrauditur and also how 156 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:25.639 he comes to think that there's a serial killer operating 157 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:28.120 once these bodies start piling up. 158 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:37.480 Yeah, John Dextrader, it was a long time both homicide 159 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:44.159 investigator and property crimes investigator, and he had investigated prior 160 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.039 to this, several murders that involved of drug addicted women 161 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:55.759 as well as several cases of fishous assaults on some 162 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:58.639 of the drug addicted women who were working the streets. 163 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.240 And he was really appalled by what was going on 164 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:08.840 there and started investigating these cases and wondering what kind 165 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.159 of person is would do these type of crime. Because 166 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:18.559 New Bedford is a very close knit small city. It's 167 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:21.240 a type of city where even the crime statistics really 168 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:25.240 are misqueting, because if people see a crime, they report it. 169 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.519 So sometimes the numbers are skewed as a result, but 170 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.759 I consider it a relatively safe city. So he was very, 171 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:37.879 very concerned about what was going on on the streets 172 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.799 and who is this person that is attacking women and 173 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.720 if we don't stop it now, it is just going 174 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.440 to get worse and worse. So he was very attuned 175 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:55.440 to these types of crimes. So he had come across 176 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:02.440 the Nancy Tiver's disappearance really by accident. He was at 177 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:05.799 the police station and he was near the front desk 178 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:10.240 when Nancy's boyfriend at the time came into report missing, 179 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:15.080 and John dex Rader, was a detective, was really taken 180 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.600 aback because the boyfriend had a long criminal record and 181 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:22.440 he would not have voluntarily gone into a police station 182 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:27.600 on his own. So he was listening to what was 183 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.000 going on, and I was wondering, Okay, this guy trying 184 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.080 to set up an alibi for himself. Did he really 185 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.799 kill his girlfriend? And he's setting it up like, oh no, 186 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:42.639 I'm really the concerned boyfriend. So eventually John took the 187 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:50.320 police report and got in touch with Nancy's sister, Judy DeSanto's, 188 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:55.240 who worked at city Hall, and he was trying to 189 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.480 track down where she might be and gathered some information, 190 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.080 but not nearly enough at that time because this was 191 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.480 a missing person's case. This was not a homicide case 192 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.879 at that time. We do have to remember nineteen eighty 193 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:15.039 eight is a different error. I mean, technology has changed 194 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.320 so much in the last thirty one years, and people 195 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.759 sometimes forget that. Back in nineteen eighty eight, we didn't 196 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:29.080 have smartphones. Surveillance cameras were primarily in banks, and those 197 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:35.919 photos were really really bad. People were not shooting video 198 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:41.480 on the street like they are today. And DNA at 199 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.840 that time, there wasn't such a thing in the court 200 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:53.480 as touched DNA. Most crimes, they investigators relied on blood types. 201 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.159 Even when it came to fingerprints, not all fingerprints were 202 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:02.360 in the APHIS system. As a matter of fact, many 203 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.559 in many states they were departments were just starting to 204 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:12.120 put their fingerprints into a centralized, computerized system. For example, 205 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.120 in New Bedford, they did not have their prints in 206 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.679 there at that time, so it was a completely different 207 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:21.639 different era. It was really talking to people walking the streets. 208 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.639 Departments were not really talking to each other the way 209 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.200 they do today. There wasn't that same ease. So he 210 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.159 was really on an island at this point when he 211 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:38.679 when he started the investigation, and as he was looking 212 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:43.360 at Nancy's disappearance, he went into the record room just 213 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.720 just gone through some of the missing persons reports and 214 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:50.240 discovered this would have been much later in the summer. Discovered, 215 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.600 oh my god, there are so many other women who 216 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.919 have slowly gone missing over the course of the spring, 217 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.440 in the summer. And it wasn't like the women were 218 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.480 missing gone missing every week. It was a you know, 219 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.879 one one month, one another month, and and they were 220 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:15.240 all adults, and these were all handwritten reports. So it 221 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:19.279 piqued his interest, uh because of the women's backgrounds. They 222 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.960 were all drug addicted women, and they all disappeared or 223 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:27.200 last seen in areas that were known for drug activity. 224 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:35.120 So he took After two bodies were found in July, uh, 225 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:40.360 that's uh, he figured that those were not neither of 226 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:45.039 them were were Nancies. Uh, although that would later turn 227 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:45.759 out to be wrong. 228 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:46.639 Uh. 229 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.480 But after September October, he went to the DA's office 230 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.559 uh to share his concerns that you know, here are 231 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.080 all these missing women. We've got two bodies that two 232 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.480 women's bodies that were found on the highways could there 233 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.559 be something more sinister going on? And thank goodness that 234 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.000 the DA's office paid attention, and they brought in a 235 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.039 specialized UH state trooper from Connecticut who had the best 236 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.320 cadaver dog that the dog that is trained to find 237 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.240 dead people. UH brought him and made arrangements to bring 238 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.440 him in. But before he was brought in, another body 239 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.960 was found. But then when he came in, additional bodies 240 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.159 were discovered along highways. John really was key in the 241 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.799 beginning of this case in bringing it to the DA's 242 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.399 attention and really getting the ball rolling. And then after 243 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:48.279 that the state police in Massachusetts state police take the 244 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:53.480 lead in homicide investigations, and Josie gonzov and Marian Bill 245 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:58.200 were this two state troopers who then took over or 246 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:03.159 led the investigation from then on there, along with a 247 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:06.559 number of other individuals, both in the sacredlies from the 248 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.880 local department. What is unique about this case, even though 249 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.359 all the women are believed to have gone missing from 250 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.559 New Bedford, this is not a New Bedford homicide case 251 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:20.119 because none of the bodies were found in New Bedford. 252 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.000 They were found in some of the smaller communities that 253 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:27.119 circle New Bedford. So if you think of it as 254 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.240 a donut where New Bedford in the center and the 255 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.519 bodies were found in a circle along the highways around there. 256 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:41.400 So it's very interesting when you talk about this incredible 257 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.680 dog handler that comes in with this specifically trained and 258 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.519 we learn a lot reading about how these dogs are 259 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:53.039 trained specifically for just one rule their whole career, their 260 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.839 whole life, and this is the the a cadaver dog. 261 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.279 And you talk about how on just when they are 262 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.559 going to wrap up a search, then there is a 263 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:08.279 body found. Tell us a little bit about that unique 264 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:13.039 search with this incredible dog and also what they found 265 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.480 at those sites that would give them some evidence or 266 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.160 some clues to move forward in the investigation. Was there 267 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.119 any evidence like that? Yeah? 268 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.599 I keep in mind this is still even after thirty 269 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:31.240 one years, this is still considered an open investigation. So 270 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:36.000 they are very very careful in Massachusetts of discussing exactly 271 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:40.079 what evidence is found at a scene that could tie 272 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.279 them to a suspect. Which is one of the reasons 273 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.880 why in a mass this all the time about DNA 274 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:54.160 that your attorney's office and investigators have been very very 275 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:59.200 careful in discussing any the possibility of any DNA evidence. 276 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.359 They will not either confirm nor deny if they have 277 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:08.240 DNA evidence, And part of the reason may be there 278 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:12.279 could be evidence there that could not be tested in 279 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.839 nineteen eighty eight or eighty nine, but could be tested 280 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:21.440 in the future because DNA testing has in forensics testing 281 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:27.160 really has changed dramatically over the past thirty one years. 282 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:27.960 So the. 283 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:35.319 Short answer is they won't discuss what was found at 284 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:40.480 the scene that could be tied to a suspect, if 285 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:45.279 that answers your question right, although things have been tested 286 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.759 over the years, but they're very, very careful in what 287 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.759 information is released on that end. 288 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:57.079 Now you talk about the investigators obviously going through all 289 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.640 of the potential suspects, even with Nancy Paiva. 290 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.440 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 291 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.640 Really, beloved, we are gathered here today. 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They had, of course some wild goose 316 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.920 chases and tips. You go through all of that tell 317 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.400 us how they come to Kenneth Ponte, if that's the 318 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.920 right pronunciation of this attorney, How he comes to be suspected. 319 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:30.279 Kenney Pont was a but he was much younger. He 320 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.640 was a heroin addict, and in some ways he was 321 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.960 the poster child for recovery because after he had been 322 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:44.640 arrested for possession needle and syringe and possession of heroin, 323 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:50.160 he basically turned literally turned his life around, went to college, 324 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:57.880 went to law school, and eventually his record was expunged 325 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:04.079 and he was able to become a jorney. However, addiction, 326 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:09.079 as many people now know, is very very insidious, and 327 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.880 in the nineteen eighties, cocaine came onto the market and 328 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:19.559 a lot of professionals for using coke, including him. However, 329 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.119 he was an attorney and he was at a reputation 330 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:30.079 to uphold, and he did not want to be seen 331 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:35.119 as using and buying coke. So he had some of 332 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.759 the girls that he knew from his previous life who 333 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.039 were on the street. He would give them money and 334 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.559 they would buy drugs for them. They'd come to the 335 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:50.960 house and use drugs with him. So he came to 336 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.720 the attention to by investigators because of his behavior. He 337 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.960 knew all of the victims, though that is not all 338 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:04.119 that unusual a small city. He knew all of the victims. 339 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:09.839 He there was a lot of very very strange stories 340 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.960 about his behavior with people and behavior with the girls 341 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.519 when they were locked up in his house and they 342 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.279 were using drugs. You know, I go into it in 343 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.720 great detail in the book. But he's very strange. It 344 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.440 will put it that way. He would start hallucinating and 345 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.480 seeing things, and some of the girls got a little 346 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.920 bit nervous about it. Some of the other girls thought, oh, yeah, 347 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.680 he's just crazy. But that is one of the reasons 348 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.720 why he came to law enforcement attention. It wasn't because 349 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.880 they just pulled his name out of a hat. That 350 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.839 they had good reason to look at him very very carefully, 351 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:54.400 and he was not very cooperative. As mat Sai, He 352 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:59.039 wasn't cooperative at all because he knew his rights and 353 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:03.599 he was a lawyer and didn't have to talk to investigators, 354 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:10.200 and that also got people a little bit concerned. So 355 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.559 he moved to the top of the list in terms 356 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.640 of suspects for quite some time, an attitude it. He 357 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:21.480 also moved to Florida about two months after the last 358 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:25.359 victim went missing. So the timing of that, along with 359 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.079 his demeanor, his background, and his knowledge for all the 360 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.960 victims really put him right in the laser focus of 361 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:36.400 want from the law enforcement. 362 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.160 Now, just to add to all of this, you talk 363 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.799 about the leak of information. What does this leak of 364 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.920 information do in terms of this case regarding the media, 365 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:51.279 I mean the. 366 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:55.240 Leak of information in terms of at that. 367 00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.519 Time, Well, when does when does the information that that 368 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.240 he's come to the attention of the When is that 369 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:06.240 information leaked? And what is the repercussions from that? 370 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:07.559 Oh? 371 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:07.960 Yeah, when? 372 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:08.200 When? 373 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:10.640 When it? When? It came out? For quite some time, 374 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:13.359 for quite another for a couple of months, they've been 375 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:17.160 you know, kind of talking to him. Uh, he's a 376 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.039 very strange. He was a very strange man. 377 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:19.720 Uh. 378 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.519 When it came out publicly that he was a quote 379 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:28.960 unquote suspect or a person of interest, he at that 380 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.960 point just stopped all talking with the with police and 381 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:37.680 got very very paranoid at that point. So that did 382 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:42.759 cause a rift, if you will, between him and law enforcement. 383 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:46.799 And that's kind of ramped up, uh, the pressure on him. 384 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.119 So I think if his name had not come out publicly, 385 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:57.200 I don't know how this cap may have veered off 386 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:01.960 in a different direction. But it did cause some issues 387 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.079 at that point because he was then in the spotlight 388 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:10.319 and he got very very defensive. And someone says, and 389 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.480 some would argue, you know, rightly, so. 390 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:17.839 Now when he decides, you say, two months after the 391 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:21.920 last body, and we didn't go through these bodies being 392 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.119 found and the investigation up to that point, and who 393 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:30.319 becomes involved in this investigation, A team is formed to 394 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.440 look at this case a lot more clearly. What happens though, 395 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:39.279 when he moves to Florida. What do police do as 396 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:39.920 a result of. 397 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.079 His move, Well, they eventually they go down there, They 398 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.839 talk with them, police down there keeping a close eye 399 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:52.480 on him because obviously, if someone moves into your town 400 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.240 and their name is mentioned in a murder investigation, you're 401 00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.319