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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 4: Eleven women went missing over the spring and summer of
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight in New Bedford, Massachusetts, an old fishing
Speaker 4: port known as the Whaling City. In Shallow Graves, investigative
Speaker 4: reporter Maureen Boyle tells the story of a case that
Speaker 4: has haunted New England for thirty years. The crimes, the
Speaker 4: skeletal remains of nine of the women, aged nineteen to
Speaker 4: thirty six, were discovered near highways around New Bedford. Some
Speaker 4: had clearly been strangled, others were so badly decomposed the
Speaker 4: police were left to guests how they had died. The investigators,
Speaker 4: Massachusetts State troopers mary Anne Dill and Josie Gonsalves, were
Speaker 4: the two constants in the complex caste of city, county
Speaker 4: and state comps and prosecutors. They knew the victims, the suspects,
Speaker 4: and the drug and crime riddled streets of New Bedford.
Speaker 4: They were present at the beginning of the case, and
Speaker 4: they stayed to the bitter end the suspects. Kenneth Ponte,
Speaker 4: a New Bedford attorney and deputy sheriff with an appetite
Speaker 4: for drugs and prostitutes, landed in the investigative crossairs from
Speaker 4: the start. He was indicted by a grand jury in
Speaker 4: the murder of one of the victims, but those charges
Speaker 4: were later drawn. Anthony DeGrazia was a loner who appeared
Speaker 4: to befit the classical classic serial killer profile. Horrific childhood abuse, charming, charismatic,
Speaker 4: but prone to bursts of violence. He hunted prostitutes in
Speaker 4: the city by day and served at a Catholic church
Speaker 4: by day. Which of these two was the real killer
Speaker 4: or was it someone else entirely? Maureen Boyle first broke
Speaker 4: the story in nineteen eighty eight and stayed with it
Speaker 4: for decades, drawing on more than one hundred interviews, along
Speaker 4: with police reports, first person accounts, and field reporting. Both
Speaker 4: during the killings and more recently, Shallow Graves brings the
Speaker 4: reader behind the scenes of the investigation, onto the streets
Speaker 4: of the city and into the homes of the family
Speaker 4: still hoping for answers. The book they were featuring the
Speaker 4: seating is Shallow Graves, The Hunt for the New Bedford
Speaker 4: Highway serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 4: Maureen Boyle. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 4: much for a greeting this interview. Maureen Boyle.
Speaker 5: Hi, thanks so much for having me, Dan, I really
Speaker 5: appreciate it, and I appreciate you a spreading word about
Speaker 5: this case. Well, thank you very much for your community
Speaker 5: incredible I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you. It was incredible book and an incredible case,
Speaker 4: and thank you for this. Tell us first how you
Speaker 4: came to be the author of Shallow Grades. How did
Speaker 4: you become first involved with this case? Tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about that.
Speaker 5: In nineteen eighty eight, I was a reporter at the
Speaker 5: Sender Times of New Bedford, that's daily newspaper on New Bedford, Massachusetts.
Speaker 5: I've been a longtime police reporter and I've done a
Speaker 5: number of pieces and about some drug addicted women who
Speaker 5: are working the streets in the city. You know, you
Speaker 5: have to go back to nineteen eighty eight, where people
Speaker 5: really didn't talk about opiate addiction like they do today.
Speaker 5: And what I was discovering back then before this case
Speaker 5: came out, that there was a number of women who
Speaker 5: had been been assaulted on the street who because of
Speaker 5: their addiction, were putting themselves in harms way people would
Speaker 5: consider harm's way. And I developed a real affinity for
Speaker 5: the women who are addicted and were really struggling to
Speaker 5: get out of that lifestyle but really couldn't because of
Speaker 5: the draw of heroin and how it really had it
Speaker 5: been in its grasp. Back in eighty eight, slowly I
Speaker 5: noticed that women started going missing. There was a detective
Speaker 5: in the New Bedford PDA who was looking at one
Speaker 5: particular disappearance, and almost by happenstance, he discovered that a
Speaker 5: number of other women had gone missing. They didn't all
Speaker 5: go missing all at once, they were all adults, so
Speaker 5: there really was not any big alarm initially because the
Speaker 5: body hadn't the remains didn't show up immediately. The first
Speaker 5: body showed up on Fourth of July weekend in nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty outside of New Bedford, on a small town called
Speaker 5: Freetown on the highway. Second body showed up in Dartmouth,
Speaker 5: which is another town outside of New Bedford, you know,
Speaker 5: at the end of July, and then another body found
Speaker 5: was eventually found in August, and then they started showing up.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry that another one was found in October. So
Speaker 5: they all started showing up, not all at once, so
Speaker 5: it was a There was no big alarm initially, but
Speaker 5: I was interested in it because the sheer number of
Speaker 5: women who had gone missing and the detective's concern about it,
Speaker 5: and so I started reporting on missing women. And as
Speaker 5: the body started showing up with increased frequency where the
Speaker 5: skeletal remains, such when we knew that there was a
Speaker 5: serial killer in the area.
Speaker 4: As you read in the book, you introduced you introduced
Speaker 4: the character of Nancy Piva, and also her mother, Judy Santos,
Speaker 4: and Nancy's daughter Jill. As you read in the book, yeah,
Speaker 4: pardon me. With Nancy, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: her life, just to demonstrate what you've been just talking
Speaker 4: about and alluding to. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: about the relationship that she had with her husband, Frankie
Speaker 4: or and tell us a little bit about her life
Speaker 4: and her use of heroin and what had happened.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Nancy was came from a class, middle class family
Speaker 5: from the north end of New Bedford. They you know, parents,
Speaker 5: owned a house. She got married, went to secretarial school,
Speaker 5: got a divorce if she had a child, got a divorce,
Speaker 5: developed a relationship with a long term relationship with another person,
Speaker 5: had a second child, and then after that breakup, she
Speaker 5: got involved with an individual who obviously her parents, her
Speaker 5: family did not approve of. He was not from New Bedford,
Speaker 5: he had a criminal record, and it appears that he
Speaker 5: is the one who introduced her to heroin. She was
Speaker 5: not a heroine hard core drug user prior to meeting him,
Speaker 5: and once she began using heroin, her life just fell
Speaker 5: apart and she wound up. She disappeared because while she
Speaker 5: was walking home trying to she was going to court
Speaker 5: the next day and she needed money for a court fine,
Speaker 5: and she just she expected that she's going to go
Speaker 5: to jail and was never seen again. But her background
Speaker 5: was middle class family, working working parents in tact family,
Speaker 5: and she did not start using heroin until she was
Speaker 5: in her thirties, and right from the start everything just
Speaker 5: fell apart. She had a loving harbor and her kids
Speaker 5: adored her. M. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you talk about and introduced Detective dextra Duer,
Speaker 4: and you talk about the limited technology at that time
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty eight, just to remind people there was
Speaker 4: a time of typewriters and payphones and white out when
Speaker 4: you made a mistake when you were typing. But tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit about detective Dextrauditur and also how
Speaker 4: he comes to think that there's a serial killer operating
Speaker 4: once these bodies start piling up.
Speaker 5: Yeah, John Dextrader, it was a long time both homicide
Speaker 5: investigator and property crimes investigator, and he had investigated prior
Speaker 5: to this, several murders that involved of drug addicted women
Speaker 5: as well as several cases of fishous assaults on some
Speaker 5: of the drug addicted women who were working the streets.
Speaker 5: And he was really appalled by what was going on
Speaker 5: there and started investigating these cases and wondering what kind
Speaker 5: of person is would do these type of crime. Because
Speaker 5: New Bedford is a very close knit small city. It's
Speaker 5: a type of city where even the crime statistics really
Speaker 5: are misqueting, because if people see a crime, they report it.
Speaker 5: So sometimes the numbers are skewed as a result, but
Speaker 5: I consider it a relatively safe city. So he was very,
Speaker 5: very concerned about what was going on on the streets
Speaker 5: and who is this person that is attacking women and
Speaker 5: if we don't stop it now, it is just going
Speaker 5: to get worse and worse. So he was very attuned
Speaker 5: to these types of crimes. So he had come across
Speaker 5: the Nancy Tiver's disappearance really by accident. He was at
Speaker 5: the police station and he was near the front desk
Speaker 5: when Nancy's boyfriend at the time came into report missing,
Speaker 5: and John dex Rader, was a detective, was really taken
Speaker 5: aback because the boyfriend had a long criminal record and
Speaker 5: he would not have voluntarily gone into a police station
Speaker 5: on his own. So he was listening to what was
Speaker 5: going on, and I was wondering, Okay, this guy trying
Speaker 5: to set up an alibi for himself. Did he really
Speaker 5: kill his girlfriend? And he's setting it up like, oh no,
Speaker 5: I'm really the concerned boyfriend. So eventually John took the
Speaker 5: police report and got in touch with Nancy's sister, Judy DeSanto's,
Speaker 5: who worked at city Hall, and he was trying to
Speaker 5: track down where she might be and gathered some information,
Speaker 5: but not nearly enough at that time because this was
Speaker 5: a missing person's case. This was not a homicide case
Speaker 5: at that time. We do have to remember nineteen eighty
Speaker 5: eight is a different error. I mean, technology has changed
Speaker 5: so much in the last thirty one years, and people
Speaker 5: sometimes forget that. Back in nineteen eighty eight, we didn't
Speaker 5: have smartphones. Surveillance cameras were primarily in banks, and those
Speaker 5: photos were really really bad. People were not shooting video
Speaker 5: on the street like they are today. And DNA at
Speaker 5: that time, there wasn't such a thing in the court
Speaker 5: as touched DNA. Most crimes, they investigators relied on blood types.
Speaker 5: Even when it came to fingerprints, not all fingerprints were
Speaker 5: in the APHIS system. As a matter of fact, many
Speaker 5: in many states they were departments were just starting to
Speaker 5: put their fingerprints into a centralized, computerized system. For example,
Speaker 5: in New Bedford, they did not have their prints in
Speaker 5: there at that time, so it was a completely different
Speaker 5: different era. It was really talking to people walking the streets.
Speaker 5: Departments were not really talking to each other the way
Speaker 5: they do today. There wasn't that same ease. So he
Speaker 5: was really on an island at this point when he
Speaker 5: when he started the investigation, and as he was looking
Speaker 5: at Nancy's disappearance, he went into the record room just
Speaker 5: just gone through some of the missing persons reports and
Speaker 5: discovered this would have been much later in the summer. Discovered,
Speaker 5: oh my god, there are so many other women who
Speaker 5: have slowly gone missing over the course of the spring,
Speaker 5: in the summer. And it wasn't like the women were
Speaker 5: missing gone missing every week. It was a you know,
Speaker 5: one one month, one another month, and and they were
Speaker 5: all adults, and these were all handwritten reports. So it
Speaker 5: piqued his interest, uh because of the women's backgrounds. They
Speaker 5: were all drug addicted women, and they all disappeared or
Speaker 5: last seen in areas that were known for drug activity.
Speaker 5: So he took After two bodies were found in July, uh,
Speaker 5: that's uh, he figured that those were not neither of
Speaker 5: them were were Nancies. Uh, although that would later turn
Speaker 5: out to be wrong.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: But after September October, he went to the DA's office
Speaker 5: uh to share his concerns that you know, here are
Speaker 5: all these missing women. We've got two bodies that two
Speaker 5: women's bodies that were found on the highways could there
Speaker 5: be something more sinister going on? And thank goodness that
Speaker 5: the DA's office paid attention, and they brought in a
Speaker 5: specialized UH state trooper from Connecticut who had the best
Speaker 5: cadaver dog that the dog that is trained to find
Speaker 5: dead people. UH brought him and made arrangements to bring
Speaker 5: him in. But before he was brought in, another body
Speaker 5: was found. But then when he came in, additional bodies
Speaker 5: were discovered along highways. John really was key in the
Speaker 5: beginning of this case in bringing it to the DA's
Speaker 5: attention and really getting the ball rolling. And then after
Speaker 5: that the state police in Massachusetts state police take the
Speaker 5: lead in homicide investigations, and Josie gonzov and Marian Bill
Speaker 5: were this two state troopers who then took over or
Speaker 5: led the investigation from then on there, along with a
Speaker 5: number of other individuals, both in the sacredlies from the
Speaker 5: local department. What is unique about this case, even though
Speaker 5: all the women are believed to have gone missing from
Speaker 5: New Bedford, this is not a New Bedford homicide case
Speaker 5: because none of the bodies were found in New Bedford.
Speaker 5: They were found in some of the smaller communities that
Speaker 5: circle New Bedford. So if you think of it as
Speaker 5: a donut where New Bedford in the center and the
Speaker 5: bodies were found in a circle along the highways around there.
Speaker 4: So it's very interesting when you talk about this incredible
Speaker 4: dog handler that comes in with this specifically trained and
Speaker 4: we learn a lot reading about how these dogs are
Speaker 4: trained specifically for just one rule their whole career, their
Speaker 4: whole life, and this is the the a cadaver dog.
Speaker 4: And you talk about how on just when they are
Speaker 4: going to wrap up a search, then there is a
Speaker 4: body found. Tell us a little bit about that unique
Speaker 4: search with this incredible dog and also what they found
Speaker 4: at those sites that would give them some evidence or
Speaker 4: some clues to move forward in the investigation. Was there
Speaker 4: any evidence like that? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I keep in mind this is still even after thirty
Speaker 5: one years, this is still considered an open investigation. So
Speaker 5: they are very very careful in Massachusetts of discussing exactly
Speaker 5: what evidence is found at a scene that could tie
Speaker 5: them to a suspect. Which is one of the reasons
Speaker 5: why in a mass this all the time about DNA
Speaker 5: that your attorney's office and investigators have been very very
Speaker 5: careful in discussing any the possibility of any DNA evidence.
Speaker 5: They will not either confirm nor deny if they have
Speaker 5: DNA evidence, And part of the reason may be there
Speaker 5: could be evidence there that could not be tested in
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty eight or eighty nine, but could be tested
Speaker 5: in the future because DNA testing has in forensics testing
Speaker 5: really has changed dramatically over the past thirty one years.
Speaker 4: So the.
Speaker 5: Short answer is they won't discuss what was found at
Speaker 5: the scene that could be tied to a suspect, if
Speaker 5: that answers your question right, although things have been tested
Speaker 5: over the years, but they're very, very careful in what
Speaker 5: information is released on that end.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about the investigators obviously going through all
Speaker 4: of the potential suspects, even with Nancy Paiva.
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Speaker 4: They looked at her husband that came forward, or her
Speaker 4: common law partners that came forward. They looked at everybody
Speaker 4: surrounding these cases. They had, of course some wild goose
Speaker 4: chases and tips. You go through all of that tell
Speaker 4: us how they come to Kenneth Ponte, if that's the
Speaker 4: right pronunciation of this attorney, How he comes to be suspected.
Speaker 5: Kenney Pont was a but he was much younger. He
Speaker 5: was a heroin addict, and in some ways he was
Speaker 5: the poster child for recovery because after he had been
Speaker 5: arrested for possession needle and syringe and possession of heroin,
Speaker 5: he basically turned literally turned his life around, went to college,
Speaker 5: went to law school, and eventually his record was expunged
Speaker 5: and he was able to become a jorney. However, addiction,
Speaker 5: as many people now know, is very very insidious, and
Speaker 5: in the nineteen eighties, cocaine came onto the market and
Speaker 5: a lot of professionals for using coke, including him. However,
Speaker 5: he was an attorney and he was at a reputation
Speaker 5: to uphold, and he did not want to be seen
Speaker 5: as using and buying coke. So he had some of
Speaker 5: the girls that he knew from his previous life who
Speaker 5: were on the street. He would give them money and
Speaker 5: they would buy drugs for them. They'd come to the
Speaker 5: house and use drugs with him. So he came to
Speaker 5: the attention to by investigators because of his behavior. He
Speaker 5: knew all of the victims, though that is not all
Speaker 5: that unusual a small city. He knew all of the victims.
Speaker 5: He there was a lot of very very strange stories
Speaker 5: about his behavior with people and behavior with the girls
Speaker 5: when they were locked up in his house and they
Speaker 5: were using drugs. You know, I go into it in
Speaker 5: great detail in the book. But he's very strange. It
Speaker 5: will put it that way. He would start hallucinating and
Speaker 5: seeing things, and some of the girls got a little
Speaker 5: bit nervous about it. Some of the other girls thought, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: he's just crazy. But that is one of the reasons
Speaker 5: why he came to law enforcement attention. It wasn't because
Speaker 5: they just pulled his name out of a hat. That
Speaker 5: they had good reason to look at him very very carefully,
Speaker 5: and he was not very cooperative. As mat Sai, He
Speaker 5: wasn't cooperative at all because he knew his rights and
Speaker 5: he was a lawyer and didn't have to talk to investigators,
Speaker 5: and that also got people a little bit concerned. So
Speaker 5: he moved to the top of the list in terms
Speaker 5: of suspects for quite some time, an attitude it. He
Speaker 5: also moved to Florida about two months after the last
Speaker 5: victim went missing. So the timing of that, along with
Speaker 5: his demeanor, his background, and his knowledge for all the
Speaker 5: victims really put him right in the laser focus of
Speaker 5: want from the law enforcement.
Speaker 4: Now, just to add to all of this, you talk
Speaker 4: about the leak of information. What does this leak of
Speaker 4: information do in terms of this case regarding the media,
Speaker 4: I mean the.
Speaker 5: Leak of information in terms of at that.
Speaker 4: Time, Well, when does when does the information that that
Speaker 4: he's come to the attention of the When is that
Speaker 4: information leaked? And what is the repercussions from that?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, when?
Speaker 2: When?
Speaker 5: When it? When? It came out? For quite some time,
Speaker 5: for quite another for a couple of months, they've been
Speaker 5: you know, kind of talking to him. Uh, he's a
Speaker 5: very strange. He was a very strange man.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: When it came out publicly that he was a quote
Speaker 5: unquote suspect or a person of interest, he at that
Speaker 5: point just stopped all talking with the with police and
Speaker 5: got very very paranoid at that point. So that did
Speaker 5: cause a rift, if you will, between him and law enforcement.
Speaker 5: And that's kind of ramped up, uh, the pressure on him.
Speaker 5: So I think if his name had not come out publicly,
Speaker 5: I don't know how this cap may have veered off
Speaker 5: in a different direction. But it did cause some issues
Speaker 5: at that point because he was then in the spotlight
Speaker 5: and he got very very defensive. And someone says, and
Speaker 5: some would argue, you know, rightly, so.
Speaker 4: Now when he decides, you say, two months after the
Speaker 4: last body, and we didn't go through these bodies being
Speaker 4: found and the investigation up to that point, and who
Speaker 4: becomes involved in this investigation, A team is formed to
Speaker 4: look at this case a lot more clearly. What happens though,
Speaker 4: when he moves to Florida. What do police do as
Speaker 4: a result of.
Speaker 5: His move, Well, they eventually they go down there, They
Speaker 5: talk with them, police down there keeping a close eye
Speaker 5: on him because obviously, if someone moves into your town
Speaker 5: and their name is mentioned in a murder investigation, you're
Speaker 5: going to want to know. If you're a cop, you're
Speaker 5: going to want to know what they're doing, and you're
Speaker 5: going to keep an eye on him. So he some
Speaker 5: of his behaviors, with his weirdness so to speak, did
Speaker 5: kind of follow him down there. Police had been called
Speaker 5: on different occasions for disturbances at his house, but they did,
Speaker 5: They did Masachufts authorities at different times did go down
Speaker 5: there just to watch his house and things like that.
Speaker 4: You introduce the characters, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, and eventually he did get in
Speaker 5: some uh, had some problems with a woman that he
Speaker 5: met down there. No that he met, well, he met
Speaker 5: through letters, and she flew down there to to spend
Speaker 5: some time with him, and there was a domestic issue
Speaker 5: and he wound up in jail on charges down there.
Speaker 4: Tell our audiences, you're doing the book about an important
Speaker 4: character named Bob Saint Jean. What does Bob Saint Jean
Speaker 4: do for this investigation?
Speaker 5: Bob Sanctionen was a former state trooper who worked for
Speaker 5: the District Attorney's office. The way it works in Massachusetts,
Speaker 5: there is a number of state Police officers who are
Speaker 5: assigned to different District attorneys, especially unit assigned to the
Speaker 5: DA's office, and they investigate homicides and like collar crimes
Speaker 5: and drug crimes, a variety of those types of things.
Speaker 5: He eventually left the state Police and was hired as
Speaker 5: the chief investigator for the DA's office. So he sort
Speaker 5: of straddled the civilian side and the state police side.
Speaker 5: Because there had been some political issues during one of
Speaker 5: the elections and he he was a he helped coordinate
Speaker 5: between the state Police and some of the local police
Speaker 5: and an investigation. And he's had spoken to UH to
Speaker 5: Kenny Kahn on h on various occasions to try to
Speaker 5: get him to UH provide additional information on the case,
Speaker 5: as as well as working with some narcotics detectives who
Speaker 5: were also drawn into the case because of the drug
Speaker 5: element that was involved.
Speaker 4: You talk about the district attorney Ronald Pena, and we'll
Speaker 4: talk about later about his political fight which happens during
Speaker 4: this grand jury arraignment. Let's talk about district Attorney Ronald
Speaker 4: Pena and how when does he get involved and when
Speaker 4: he gets involved, what does he want to do?
Speaker 5: What does uh does Ron? Okay, so with Ron's eventual
Speaker 5: political fight, but I mean these type of cases, especially
Speaker 5: in small communities, there is always a political element to it,
Speaker 5: or people try to introduce politics into into criminal justice cases,
Speaker 5: which you know, personally I think is the wrong thing
Speaker 5: to do. Politics should never be involved in law enforcement,
Speaker 5: but it unfortunately, if people have got to be elected
Speaker 5: for a job, it does become, uh become an issue.
Speaker 5: And uh, you know, before this case, Ron had been
Speaker 5: very been involved in a re election bid where he
Speaker 5: was up against a state trooper's brother. The troop of
Speaker 5: the brother lost and run had some hard feelings with
Speaker 5: state police, and then as a result of this case,
Speaker 5: he also faced a really tough challenger for re election
Speaker 5: again in the case. So in some ways this case
Speaker 5: did become a lightning rod locally in politics. They Ron,
Speaker 5: it was Ron Pino is a very bright, very articulate individual,
Speaker 5: very good looking, very well spoken, and had a lot
Speaker 5: of very high profile cases during his tenure. And you
Speaker 5: know type of high profile cases that draw out media attention,
Speaker 5: such as what's known as the Big Dance case, which
Speaker 5: was a gang rape case here in Pindy, Bedford in
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties, and that got people concerned in the community,
Speaker 5: uh from the prosecution of that. They felt that it
Speaker 5: was overblown.
Speaker 4: Or it was.
Speaker 5: Showing the city in a bad light. He had been
Speaker 5: involved in a number of other gaming case hope full
Speaker 5: of types of cases. So in some ways Ron became
Speaker 5: a lightning right, put a lightning ride people who either
Speaker 5: loved him or they hated him. And this case through
Speaker 5: a lot of attention and a lot of attension on
Speaker 5: the city, a lot of attension to him, and it
Speaker 5: became a campaign issue. In some ways. Some people thought
Speaker 5: that Kenny pont was unjustly being pursued as a suspect,
Speaker 5: that it was being prosecuted to win an election. So
Speaker 5: it became it became uh Ron's handling of the case
Speaker 5: and the case itself became political when it probably when
Speaker 5: it when it should not have.
Speaker 4: Been the one we talk about. You talk about Kenneth
Speaker 4: Ponte communicating with the DA, which is I would say
Speaker 4: somewhat unusual. What was the gist of the conversations? What
Speaker 4: did ponte Pont have to say to the district attorney?
Speaker 5: Well, when most of his conversations went to uh went
Speaker 5: through Bob Saint Jean. Uh. Any of his conversations with
Speaker 5: the DA were more public, uh, you know, through his
Speaker 5: attorney and things like that. He didn't really have you know,
Speaker 5: face to face conversations with Ron Pino mhm. They were
Speaker 5: all went through uh, some of the investigators and Georgia.
Speaker 5: And he had very hard feelings, obviously for the district attorney.
Speaker 4: And what would he say to Bob Saint Geane, what
Speaker 4: was what was the what would Bob say to him?
Speaker 4: How did Bob feel about the treatment that was given
Speaker 4: to pot through the media. Did he feel any empathy?
Speaker 4: What was it?
Speaker 5: Well, well, you know, uh, Bob Finching's is very very
Speaker 5: highly trained and investigator and he would uh obviously just
Speaker 5: to let him know that there was you know, they
Speaker 5: were just wanted answers and just wanted wanted him to
Speaker 5: help with the investigations and would would just you know
Speaker 5: press him in that regard and insists that they had
Speaker 5: nothing to do with anything that was released to the press,
Speaker 5: that the you know, whatever the press was was doing,
Speaker 5: it's not not his choice.
Speaker 4: Tell us about the grand jury, and.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, the district attorney had developed a uh decided
Speaker 5: to host a special grand jury, hold a special grand
Speaker 5: jury in this case, who's an investigative grand jury, primarily
Speaker 5: to get these people's recollections and the information on the
Speaker 5: record so that there would be sworn testimony in the case.
Speaker 5: Uh so that if someone if someone died or something
Speaker 5: like that, if if if if someone died or something
Speaker 5: like that, they uh would not be that they would
Speaker 5: still have the information on record, right. Uh So, so
Speaker 5: this went on for quite some time. You now, uh,
Speaker 5: media was outside the the DA's office for quite some time,
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, or outside the courthouse for quite some time.
Speaker 5: The grand jury's secret, so people are in the giving
Speaker 5: their testimony before the grand jurors, and the media is outside.
Speaker 5: They can see who's going in there, but they don't
Speaker 5: know what's being said. So when the people would leave
Speaker 5: the courthouse, reporters would ask the witnesses, what did they
Speaker 5: ask you? What did you say? And this went on
Speaker 5: for quite some time. However, it's interesting about this, and
Speaker 5: you know, I was there at the time. I experienced
Speaker 5: what was going on, and through the research of the
Speaker 5: book and I was able to obtain some of the
Speaker 5: grand jury information. What the reporters thought was being said
Speaker 5: at that time was not necessarily what was being said there.
Speaker 5: And the direction of the grand jury really was very,
Speaker 5: very investigative, particularly in the early stages. The information that
Speaker 5: they were gathering from people is not necessarily what the
Speaker 5: public thought was going on. The public, through the news media,
Speaker 5: thought the grand jury was targeting Kenneth pot especially in
Speaker 5: the early stages, when in fact it really was a
Speaker 5: very wide net of suspects that they were looking at.
Speaker 5: The grand jury looked at a variety of people looked
Speaker 5: at as well as the investigators. The investigators looked at
Speaker 5: a wide range of suspects in the case, ranging from
Speaker 5: fishermen to even cops. They looked at people who were
Speaker 5: picking up girls on the street. They looked at businessmen,
Speaker 5: they looked at lawyers, they looked at doctors, you name it,
Speaker 5: they looked at them. And some of those individuals were
Speaker 5: called into the grand jury to address some of the
Speaker 5: DA's concerns and also as a fact finding finding mission.
Speaker 5: So the grand jury's mission initially was to get the facts,
Speaker 5: get it on record because some of the witnesses, potential
Speaker 5: witnesses were addicted to drugs or were in recovery or
Speaker 5: diagnosed with HIV, and in the nineteen eighties and eighties
Speaker 5: and nineties, they didn't have the same drum cocktails that
Speaker 5: you have today, and it was considered a death sentence
Speaker 5: by many, So they really wanted to get all this
Speaker 5: information on the record so that they would have it
Speaker 5: for years to come, or god forbid, someone odd before
Speaker 5: they could get the information from them. So by having
Speaker 5: it on the record, they can still continue this very very,
Speaker 5: very difficult investigation. But it was a bit of a zoo,
Speaker 5: I have to say, with the grand jury in terms
Speaker 5: of the UH the way the situation was created outside
Speaker 5: the courthouse, because you had television reporters, radio reporters, print
Speaker 5: reporters all gathered outside waiting for witnesses to come out,
Speaker 5: waiting for the DA to come out. It was secret,
Speaker 5: the testimony was secret, but who was going in and
Speaker 5: out really wasn't And that also created the impression to
Speaker 5: the public that this was a circus rather than an investigation,
Speaker 5: which it was not the case.
Speaker 4: Outside of the public opinion and their perception, what were
Speaker 4: legal onlookers, how were they assessing this grand jury special
Speaker 4: grand jury result?
Speaker 5: Some of them, obviously, they were very concerned about the
Speaker 5: attention that was portrayed to one of their own and wondering,
Speaker 5: you know, why were different names being out there in
Speaker 5: the public view. Well, if someone isn't charged for the crime,
Speaker 5: why is their name being dragged out in public right
Speaker 5: so that they're quote unquote painted as a killer when
Speaker 5: they're not being charged with it. So there was some
Speaker 5: concern in that regard of how the secret proceeding was
Speaker 5: being handled because of some of it was the logistics
Speaker 5: of where the courthouse was and where the grand jury met.
Speaker 5: The grand jury met in New Bedford Superior Court, which
Speaker 5: is a very historic courthouse. They met in the first floor.
Speaker 5: They had two courtrooms in there, one downstairs, one upstairs,
Speaker 5: and there's a grand jury room, a smaller room, and
Speaker 5: if you were in the hallway. You could see who's
Speaker 5: being who's walking in, and who's walking out. It really
Speaker 5: wasn't It was no secret how many people were being
Speaker 5: called in there. You may not know what they said,
Speaker 5: but you know who went in and you know how
Speaker 5: long they were in there.
Speaker 4: For now we alluded to and we mentioned another person
Speaker 4: that was a suspect, which was Anthony de Grasia. Tell
Speaker 4: us about him and why he becomes a viable suspect.
Speaker 5: Tomas Gunca became a suspect further into the investigation because
Speaker 5: a number of the women who are on the street,
Speaker 5: who were very concerned about their own lives at this
Speaker 5: point in their own safety, had brought him to their attention.
Speaker 5: They were describing a man who was sexually assaulting and
Speaker 5: attacking and choking women that he would pick up on
Speaker 5: the street. He would quote unquote choke them out. You'd
Speaker 5: choke them until they lost consciousness and then sexually assault them.
Speaker 5: They gave them a description. They eventually I did and
Speaker 5: arrested Anthony Degrassia on a series of attacks on women.
Speaker 5: So because of you know the nature of the victims,
Speaker 5: who the victims were, and the nature of the attacks,
Speaker 5: he definitely moved also moved to the top of the
Speaker 5: lists of pretension suspects, and there was a number of
Speaker 5: He had a number of alleged victims he was charging,
Speaker 5: so also he he also had a very interesting background
Speaker 5: to say the least. He had two previous rape arrests,
Speaker 5: but he was acquitted on both of them. The and
Speaker 5: I go into him in detail about one in particular
Speaker 5: involving to teenage girls.
Speaker 4: But he.
Speaker 5: And he came had a sort of the sad upbringing.
Speaker 5: It was alleged that he was abused as a child,
Speaker 5: so that that came to play in terms of looking
Speaker 5: at the profile of an individual and a criminal profile.
Speaker 5: So that also came to playing like, oh, could it
Speaker 5: possibly beat him?
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 5: So so two of them were two of the two
Speaker 5: several main suspects at that were examined. There were that
Speaker 5: came into the public eye. That said, there was a
Speaker 5: number of other people who also were examined, and they
Speaker 5: could not really pinpoint, okay if they were or were
Speaker 5: not the killer. There just wasn't enough evidence.
Speaker 3: In it.
Speaker 5: To move it forward. So as a results, ye, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: Getting back to getting back to the grand jury decision,
Speaker 4: we talked about the political situation that Rob Pena was
Speaker 4: in and his future as a district attorney. Tell us
Speaker 4: what happens with the grand jury that was arraigned, and
Speaker 4: then what happens with the penis bid for election, and
Speaker 4: what happens as a result with this case. With the news.
Speaker 5: Kenny Pond had been indicted by the grand jury on
Speaker 5: one account of a homicide involving one of the victims
Speaker 5: who had been staying with him.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: This was prior to the election. He was in a
Speaker 5: primary battle with an individual by named Paul Walsh, who
Speaker 5: came from a very well politically connected family. And when
Speaker 5: Paul won, he Paul won the election, won the primary,
Speaker 5: which was a Democratic primary. There were no Republicans Republicans
Speaker 5: on the ballot, so essentially the winner take all primary
Speaker 5: he won and Ron was gone part of the case.
Speaker 5: Part of the reason why I think he won was
Speaker 5: because of this case. Because of because Kenny Pont had
Speaker 5: been indicted so close to the election, people were concerned
Speaker 5: that he was indicted only to score political points, only
Speaker 5: to win the elections.
Speaker 4: And when they looked at the information gathered from this
Speaker 4: grand jury as well, there wasn't any ties. There was
Speaker 4: no ties legally for him for this to move forward
Speaker 4: to indict yeah.
Speaker 5: After, but we have to remember when when people are indicted,
Speaker 5: it is not the grand jury does not have to
Speaker 5: be unanimous in an indictment. It's not like it is
Speaker 5: with a trial. So all the grand jurys didn't I
Speaker 5: have to agree on it as long as it was
Speaker 5: a majority, and they moved it forward. And they had
Speaker 5: been meeting for you know, well over a year. It was,
Speaker 5: you know, a grand jury from hell if you were
Speaker 5: sitting on it, because you were in there a long
Speaker 5: long time, on and off. It wasn't every single day,
Speaker 5: but it was grueling for average people who got, you know,
Speaker 5: called to jury duty and next thing you know, they're
Speaker 5: sitting on a special grand jury. But the when Paul
Speaker 5: took Paul Walsh took over as a district attorneys as
Speaker 5: this act attorney. The first thing he did was review
Speaker 5: the case and he brought in a special prosecutor, someone
Speaker 5: who is not from Bristol County, someone who had no
Speaker 5: local political ties. And part of that was to take
Speaker 5: away that the shadow that somehow this was a politically
Speaker 5: motivated case. So he brought in a special prosecutor. Paul Buckley,
Speaker 5: who is very well respected in the Boston area and well.
Speaker 5: First Paul went through all the evidence with the investigators,
Speaker 5: box by box, piece by piece, and then the investigator
Speaker 5: did the same, went through every bit of information in
Speaker 5: the case. And he had and he told me he
Speaker 5: had every intention of prosecuting the case. He just wanted
Speaker 5: to know, Okay, how am I going to build my
Speaker 5: case here? And as they were going through it, he
Speaker 5: realized they did not have enough evidence to not only
Speaker 5: not win the case now, they didn't have enough evidence
Speaker 5: hard evidence to bring it to trial that a judge
Speaker 5: would just toss it out. And rather than have it
Speaker 5: being tossed up well with prejudice, which means that if
Speaker 5: additional evidence came forward against Kenny Pont, they couldn't prosecute them.
Speaker 5: They just dropped the case.
Speaker 4: Right now, we'll talk about too go ahead.
Speaker 5: So it wasn't a it did not clear Kenny Pont.
Speaker 5: It just said that there wasn't enough evidence to bring
Speaker 5: its trials.
Speaker 4: There was a woman named Diane Doherty as if we
Speaker 4: go backwards just a little bit at this grandeury, and
Speaker 4: she talked about a woman that lived with Pont, which
Speaker 4: was Rochelle and tell us what she had said. And
Speaker 4: despite what she said, what was the result of the information.
Speaker 5: That she provided, Well, Dian Dohorty gave some conflicting information
Speaker 5: to afford and as a result, you know, initially that
Speaker 5: played into the uh, the indictment, but when it came
Speaker 5: down to uh it's actually moving the case forward, Uh,
Speaker 5: they could not. They didn't finance her as a viable
Speaker 5: witness for it. So you know, she Diana told a
Speaker 5: variety of different crazy stories that they they seemed just
Speaker 5: too crazy, uh, too far fetched. Uh, later to h
Speaker 5: to matter. I mean, the stories that she told ranged
Speaker 5: and without getting into too much detail of her she
Speaker 5: they ultimately did not. Initially they sort of bought uh
Speaker 5: what she was saying, but later warned a doc now
Speaker 5: she was making allegations that he uh admitted that he
Speaker 5: did kill one of the victims, and that that played
Speaker 5: a role into the I think into the indictment.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about Tony Degrassi and you talk about
Speaker 4: his fate, you talk about obviously Kenneth Paunts his fate.
Speaker 4: You talk about the detective Duxtradur and his son getting
Speaker 4: into the police. But we've throughout this entire book, and
Speaker 4: we haven't really mentioned it is is the plight of
Speaker 4: sister Judy Santo's with her sister Nancy Piva finally being
Speaker 4: identified and the entire challenge and battle and her hopes
Speaker 4: dashed with this entire thing. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: about Judy Santo's and that fight to find justice for
Speaker 4: her sister, Judy.
Speaker 5: De Santo's over the years, really and and part of
Speaker 5: it is because she's you know, living in New Bedford,
Speaker 5: was able to really keep on pushing and keep on
Speaker 5: highlighting and see the case to local authorities as well
Speaker 5: as Nancy's children, who you know, they're now adults. Uh,
Speaker 5: she whenever possible, will you know, just keep on asking
Speaker 5: about it. However, some other families of other victims, uh,
Speaker 5: one of especially Deborah greenwas Demello. Her her brother and
Speaker 5: her daughter are very very active in pushing for justice
Speaker 5: for for her. That was another victim in the case.
Speaker 5: So there is two families that are really pushing forward
Speaker 5: to this day, searching for justice, just trying to keep
Speaker 5: the case alive. Neither of them will really rest until
Speaker 5: the killer is identified. You know, it's after thirty one years.
Speaker 5: A variety of things could have happened. You know, the
Speaker 5: killer could be dead, the killer could be in jail,
Speaker 5: the killer could have moved, the killer could have just stopped.
Speaker 5: But if the killer is dead, I think the public
Speaker 5: really deserves to know who he is, just so that
Speaker 5: they can put the case to rest in their minds.
Speaker 5: They'll never be justice if the person is dead, because
Speaker 5: a person hasn't going to go on on trial, but
Speaker 5: at least a community, the families in the community at
Speaker 5: large will know who the person was and they won't
Speaker 5: always be looking over the show. The other issue in
Speaker 5: terms of justice is that you know that nine moneys
Speaker 5: have been found, but there are still two victims that
Speaker 5: are out there that have not been located, Christine Montero
Speaker 5: and another individual, another woman whose parents This isn't an
Speaker 5: interesting situation here, Marilyn Cardoza Roberts. Her father was a
Speaker 5: retired the Bedford cop and she went missing in in
Speaker 5: the spring of nineteen eighty and she has not been found.
Speaker 5: The Christine Montero, who is the youngest victim, she's nineteen.
Speaker 5: Her mother was engaged to a Dartmouth police officer and
Speaker 5: her remains have not been found. So that there's a
Speaker 5: number of people who have said, and I think and
Speaker 5: I would argue wrongly that enough attention had not been
Speaker 5: paid to this case because the women were drug addicted,
Speaker 5: and if they were the daughters or sisters of police officers,
Speaker 5: the case would have been solved. However, in these two cases,
Speaker 5: you know, you did have two victims who were tied
Speaker 5: to who did have relatives tried to law enforcement, and
Speaker 5: those that were investigating the case really did want to
Speaker 5: solve it and it had nothing to do with oh,
Speaker 5: we don't care because of their addiction.
Speaker 2: In terms of.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so duties. You know, the families really are, even
Speaker 5: after all these years, really committed to justice because it
Speaker 5: really is a gaping whole in their hearts. They cannot
Speaker 5: it's unresolved, it will always be there. And as they
Speaker 5: move forward, and you know, their children reached the age
Speaker 5: where they're older than were than their mothers. Uh, it's
Speaker 5: very very sad that there's, you know, there's all of
Speaker 5: these milestones in their children's lives that these women never
Speaker 5: got to see. And most of the women were uh,
Speaker 5: were mothers and the children grew up without them, and
Speaker 5: the children never got to see their mothers recover from
Speaker 5: their addiction and you know, re enter their lives.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, yeah, and you really delve into the relative
Speaker 4: normalcy of these people's lives and the close family lives
Speaker 4: that they had despite this tag of drug addicted prostitute,
Speaker 4: and and that reality in terms of the suspects, Tony
Speaker 4: did Grazia and Kenneth Pont what happened to Tony de
Speaker 4: Grazia and then tell us to tell us what happened happened?
Speaker 5: Well they you know, they I detail all of that
Speaker 5: in the book of what had happened to them. You
Speaker 5: know that their faiths were very, very sad. But going
Speaker 5: back to the prostitution elements, not all of the women
Speaker 5: had records of prostitution.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: The women the common denominator in the case is UH
Speaker 5: drug addiction. And you know, a couple of the women
Speaker 5: had records for for prostitution and because of the their addiction. UH,
Speaker 5: women may have been in situations where they were uh,
Speaker 5: they could be compromised, but not all of them were
Speaker 5: were prostitutes. And even those that were, okay, they were
Speaker 5: most of most of the women who were were not
Speaker 5: the ones who were always out on the street. Those
Speaker 5: were the ones who survived. So whoever it was that
Speaker 5: killed them, were able to win their trust in a
Speaker 5: certain in a certain way. And you know, this is
Speaker 5: a this is a very very small community, small city,
Speaker 5: and where the the women were found at least I
Speaker 5: believe that it is someone local, uh or was local,
Speaker 5: someone who knows the area, because there is a just
Speaker 5: the the way the roads are and where the women
Speaker 5: were found. It was not someone who just you know,
Speaker 5: popped into the area briefly and disappeared. They really they
Speaker 5: did have some type of a tie to the community.
Speaker 5: And it does seem that they really were trying to
Speaker 5: avoid the city of New Bedford because none of the
Speaker 5: women were found in the city and all the all
Speaker 5: the and it's believes all the women were taken from
Speaker 5: the city, and you know, all of the women would
Speaker 5: have known each other because of the nature of a
Speaker 5: small community. I have told people in the past that
Speaker 5: the women would have known each other because they were
Speaker 5: in that same circle of buying drugs, just as you
Speaker 5: know doctors, no doctors, teachers, no teachers, educators, no educators.
Speaker 5: In the drug culture, those that are addicted no other addicts,
Speaker 5: and they know others and they know dealers, So that
Speaker 5: would not be unusual beside as a result, can it count?
Speaker 5: For example, he knew all of the victims, but in
Speaker 5: a small circle like drug use, drug dealing, or drug buying,
Speaker 5: drug addiction, that might not be that unusual, especially given
Speaker 5: his previous history with addiction. And he was always in
Speaker 5: New Bedford, he did not live elsewhere. So it was
Speaker 5: it made you know, it was it raised flags, but
Speaker 5: it also made sense to But overall, this has been
Speaker 5: a very tragic, tragic story for everyone involved. And I
Speaker 5: really hope that either through forensic science or through the public,
Speaker 5: someone will be able to come forward and say, Okay,
Speaker 5: I know who the killer is, not that I think
Speaker 5: it is, or you know, all this guy is really
Speaker 5: suspicious that they know of They were either there or
Speaker 5: they heard this person tell them that they did it.
Speaker 5: And I really think that there is someone out there
Speaker 5: who holds the key to the case. They may not
Speaker 5: have been willing to come forward back then because they
Speaker 5: were afraid of the individual. They may have had drug
Speaker 5: issues of their own. There's a variety of reasons why
Speaker 5: someone may not come forward. Then. You know, now they're
Speaker 5: much older, they have kids of their own, they have grandkids,
Speaker 5: they've left the area, they're sober, and their life circumstances
Speaker 5: are very, very different. So I really hope that those
Speaker 5: the people who are person who has the key to
Speaker 5: the case and come forward and find it in their
Speaker 5: heart and they courageous and contact law enforcement in Bristol
Speaker 5: County in New Bedford to say, this is a person
Speaker 5: who is the killer and this is the reason. Why.
Speaker 5: Not because I think it is or you know, this
Speaker 5: person's crazy, but because this is I was there, or
Speaker 5: he came home and said this, or I witnessed it,
Speaker 5: you know that type of thing. And I think that
Speaker 5: there is a witness out there or witnesses who hold
Speaker 5: that key because it has happened in the past.
Speaker 4: What about the idea that DNA can solve this. I
Speaker 4: know that in nineteen eighty there weren't the technological advances,
Speaker 4: but since then and certainly the testing is much easier.
Speaker 4: Posts two thousand. Do you think there's any reason why
Speaker 4: DNA hasn't been used and there's been no exhamation of
Speaker 4: the two suspects or what do you think about that
Speaker 4: and that possibility of DNA solving.
Speaker 5: This, Well, the DNA may may be able to solve it.
Speaker 5: At this point. They the key will be any evidence
Speaker 5: that they have and being able to glean DNA from
Speaker 5: any evidence that they have. They do have the DNA
Speaker 5: of Kenny Pont and Tony's grassia, so they don't have
Speaker 5: to do anything in that regard, but the issue would
Speaker 5: be UH looking at any evidence that was from the
Speaker 5: scene and being able to glean any any of the
Speaker 5: DNA and evidence from that to testing. So keep in
Speaker 5: mind of the bodies of the women were found months
Speaker 5: and months after they went missing. UH. For example, Menti
Speaker 5: Fiva Nancy Pivo was probably found the quickest. She went
Speaker 5: missing in July beginning of July. She was found the
Speaker 5: end of July. However, her remains were largely skeletal by
Speaker 5: the time she was found because it was just such
Speaker 5: a hot, hot summer, it was unbelievable and it was
Speaker 5: so her remains were largely skeletal, and all of the
Speaker 5: other remains also were trim basically skeletal. So there was
Speaker 5: not an awful lot that could be found at the
Speaker 5: scene at that time, but they did preserve a lot
Speaker 5: of evidence, and you know, even taking into things that
Speaker 5: have been degraded over time. As testing continues to improve
Speaker 5: and may be able to get some DNA in the
Speaker 5: future that can be entered into into a system. But
Speaker 5: you know, it's we wind up in a very false
Speaker 5: sense of knowledge when it comes to DNA because we
Speaker 5: see so many things on TV, on show, on cop
Speaker 5: shows and that you know, oh, there's a touch DNA
Speaker 5: or there's DNA here, and thingo. Within an hour, you know,
Speaker 5: we have a suspect. And it's really not that simple,
Speaker 5: as you know, and when you're looking at older DNA
Speaker 5: and especially from scenes that have been out in the element,
Speaker 5: it's really really difficult to get the right type of
Speaker 5: sample for testing, for the right type of tests. So
Speaker 5: as you know, as we continue to keep going, they
Speaker 5: may be able to get some a match. It is
Speaker 5: who knows, But I really think it will come down
Speaker 5: to the old fashioned someone comes forward type, old school investigating.
Speaker 4: And it's it's interesting in your book because there's so
Speaker 4: many times when it looked like that was going to happen,
Speaker 4: that that the case was going to be solved by
Speaker 4: the old fashioned manner, that people had come forward, they
Speaker 4: had said some things, and then all these hopes for
Speaker 4: the victims' families were dashed. He is saying nine victims,
Speaker 4: two more potential eleven potential victims of this mysterious serial killer.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you very much, Maureen for coming
Speaker 4: on and talking about Shallow Graves the Hunt for the
Speaker 4: new Bedford Highway serial Killer. For those people that might
Speaker 4: want to take a look at your work, tell us
Speaker 4: how they might find this book. Is there a Facebook
Speaker 4: page or a website? Tell us about that.
Speaker 5: The website is Shallow gravesthbook dot com. The website, that's
Speaker 5: the website. Uh. You can follow me on Twitter for
Speaker 5: those that are on Twitter, moreing e boil one. I
Speaker 5: think that's my Twitter. You know how that goes. Sometimes
Speaker 5: you forget the uh you know, you create a new
Speaker 5: one because you forget your password. Uh sure, Uh there
Speaker 5: more in e boil b O y L E and
Speaker 5: number one. The Facebook page is uh Shallow Graves Hunt
Speaker 5: from the Bedford UH serial Killer, and it is with
Speaker 5: a colon, not a semi colon. Uh. There's another page
Speaker 5: out there with a semi colon that's run by Wayne Perry,
Speaker 5: who is the uh brother of one of the victims.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: There's another page show great the Shallow Graves and I
Speaker 5: have an author's page. You can get the book through
Speaker 5: Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and through your local bookstore
Speaker 5: ask for ask for a by name and order it.
Speaker 5: And so there's a variety of boys.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, thank you very much Maureen Boyle for coming
Speaker 4: on talking about Shallow Graves, the hunt for the new
Speaker 4: Bedford Highway serial killer. It's been fascinating. Thank you very much,
Speaker 4: Maureen Boyle. Good night.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you very much for having me. I greatly
Speaker 5: appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, good night.