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Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at the

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Federalist and as always your experience shirpa on today's Quest

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for Knowledge. As always, you can email the show at

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radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit

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fdr LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast,

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and of course to the premium version of our website

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as well. Our guest today is Ryan Wolfe, director of

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the Fund for American Studies Center for Excellence in Journalism.

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Ryan joins us for a conversation on fixing the Fourth

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Estate that includes reaching young journalists with programs alike tifas

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New Journalism excellent fellowship. Ryan, thanks again for joining us

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at this edition of the Federalist Radio out.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be with you, you bet.

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Speaker 1: Let's begin there. Let's talk a little bit about trying

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to reach young journalists because that is becoming more and

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more important when it comes to fixing the Fourth State.

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Because I will tell you, as a long time toiler

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in the Fourth Estate, I am oftentimes ashamed of the

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Fourth Estate. I am I'm really really not only disappointed,

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I've gone beyond discipline. I'm sick to my stomach and

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a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing out there

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in journalism today. Tell us what this Journalism Excellence Fellowship

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aims to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, well, I agree.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think the media is at a point

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where things are are starting to change in lots of ways.

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You know, Historically speaking, and you probably can remember this

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and many of our listeners, you know, the way to

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get started in journalism was to start at a local

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newspaper to you know, pound the pavement, go to school

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board meetings, report.

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Speaker 2: On those kinds of stories.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then you would fimb your way up to maybe

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a more regional publication.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, at sort of than a dear

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of your career in that area, you would make the

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lead to a national outlet and work, you know at

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one of the big publications New York Times, Washington Posts,

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while journal or have a syndicated column or something like that.

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Speaker 2: That time has gone.

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Speaker 3: We don't really have local newspapers at this point. Regional

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newspapers are struggling. The Pittsburgh Post because, for example, is

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going to close. So you know that this system of

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how people got into media really started to change in

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the twenty tens. The thing that replaced it, and perhaps

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many of the you know, present critiques of media come

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out of this era.

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Speaker 2: They replaced it with a lot of.

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Speaker 3: You know, digital online outlets that were really looking to

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get a lot of clicks, and they would produce kind

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of the crazy headline you know, Facebook click bait articles.

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Speaker 2: They'd hire a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: From journalism schools, and that you know, really changed who

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were journalists. These weren't you know, local guys and gals

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who you know, were covering their town. It was people

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who went to elite journalism schools working in Brooklyn or DC,

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writing flickbait stories to go viral or on Facebook, and

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all this was predicated on you know, ad traffic and

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and sort of a business model where you can make

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money off of getting lots of clicks. That era has

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now ended too, so we're in this new phase where

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people are trying to figure out how do you make

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money in the media, And I think a lot of

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mainstream media institutions are starting to see, hey, you know,

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there's this whole other audience out there that we maybe

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haven't been serving as well as we could have, and

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we should try to hear them out, to give them

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a voice, to give them a chance, and and bring

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them in as readers.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a bunch of these changes currently happening.

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You know, the CBS News acquiring the Free Press would

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be one, but another would be Washington Host taking its

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opinion page in a more conservative, right of center.

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Speaker 2: Free market direction.

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Speaker 3: So that's and then I think lots of other mainstream

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media outlets are seeing this and saying, hey, maybe we

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should should hire some people, maybe we should diversify the opinions.

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And you know, the idea is coming out of our

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newsroom too, And so what's happened is it's it's a

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really unique time in media. So with all of that,

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we're launching these new Journalism Excellence Fellowships. It's nine month roles,

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one on the Washington Post opinion page and one on

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the Boston Globe opinion page. And the goal here is

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to get you know, these different ideas and different voices

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out to talk to new audiences.

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Speaker 1: Well, that I think is absolutely critical because take a

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look at what is happening and we'll talk more about

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this in our JAY schools across the country has been

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happening for some time. You know, I like the fact

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that you're getting some students who are coming in with

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at least a broader worldview than we have seen from

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the big publications, corporate media outlets New York Times, Washington

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Post and others. But I can't help but think Ryan

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when I take a look at all, For instance, the

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New York Times. As you mentioned before, the media model

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is changing, of trying to find different ways to capture

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different audiences, and the New York Times a while back

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purchased The Athletic. I don't know if you saw the

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story of late, but there are some very frustrated people

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with the Atlantic Athletic. There was a reporter there who

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was covering the Australian Open, a tennis tournament, and asking

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each young American tennis player one anti Trump question after

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the other. And to their credit, these tennis players said,

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you know, I'm a tennis player. I'm in the middle

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of a tournament here. I don't want to be distracted

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and I don't want to be a headline from somewhere,

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And they actually called the guy out. This was a

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young reporter. Again. If this is where the New York

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Times continues to want to go then I think they're

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going to continue to alienate their market players. Again, this

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reporter was asking things like, well, you know, a lot

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of things have been happening over the last year, tennis player,

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how do you feel about representing America and the American

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flag in this time period? And that is not, to me,

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a legitimate question for a tennis player to answer.

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Speaker 3: It's an odd person and location to ask that. Yeah. Well,

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I would say two things on that. One is that

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the New York Times is business model is very different

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than pretty much any other publication in the country. They're

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making money off games and recipes, games and recipes print

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money for the New York Times, and so they're not

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thinking or sort of what I was saying about, maybe

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we need to look at during new audiences.

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Speaker 2: That's not really where they're at.

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Speaker 3: They've found new audiences who want to pay for other

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products they have, and so that's just a unique thing

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about the incentives driving the New York Times just to

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look a little different.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that I would say is that.

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Speaker 3: The news side of publications, you know, often are and

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this might seem like, you know, it's the opposite of

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how it should be, but sometimes the news sides can

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be more ideological or ideologically driven than opinion pages. And

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so you know, if you look at sort of some

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of the headlines coming out of CBS News, everyone.

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Speaker 2: There is very frustrated by I think very reasonable.

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Speaker 3: Not everyone there, the ten anonymous sources or whoever they are,

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are very you know, they're struggling with these very I

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think basic, straightforward changes that Barry Weiss and her team

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are asking them to make.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I think news pages.

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Speaker 3: Have perhaps a longer half ahead of them as far

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as regaining the trust to the public, whereas opinion pages,

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perhaps because they're just more open about, hey, this is

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what we think. Are actually kind of an easier place

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in many circumstances to have a diversity of use.

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Speaker 1: This is what I like about what you folks do

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at the Foundation or excuse me, the Fund for American

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Study Center and in the Excellence in Journalism. What I

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like is that you are bringing in and trying to

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position kids, young people, I should say, because I'm an

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old guy, and so I say kids, But to get

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journalists to think about the full story here more than anything,

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not to be another activist journalism. That's what I think

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of when I think of the guy at the Athletic

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who's asking these really stupid questions of young tennis players

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in the Australian Open. That's what I think of when

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I think of Don Lemon. And we have a little

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audio from Don Lemon of late, who has gotten himself

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into a good deal of trouble for claiming to be

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an independent journalist. And I have to chuckle at the

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term journalist. And I always have to put in air

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quotes when I think of Don Lemon, but that's a

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matter of opinion. But here he is going in following

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the mob storming a church in Saint Paul as they

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go in in the middle of the church services and

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scream at the congregants and kids are crying. They don't

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know what's going to happen, because we've seen this story

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unfortunately at more than a few churches in this country.

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Or someone walks in and they have weapons and start

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shooting the place up, so you don't know what's going on.

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Don Lemon is covering this and he he's doing it

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live streaming and he says, well, here, I don't care

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what you say, pastor about how this is wrong to

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invade a church, and the church services. Why, I've got

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the First Amendment on my side, and that's the kind

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of stuff that we've seen. But let's listen to a

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little bit of that. That incident here with with Don Lemon,

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what do you.

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Speaker 3: Think of it?

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Speaker 5: I mean, this is unacceptable, it's shameful. It's shameful to

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interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship. But there

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were folks. I have to take care of my flock.

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Speaker 4: Listen, we live in there's a constitution in the First

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Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to a similar protest.

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Speaker 5: We're here to worship. We're here to worship Jesus because

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that's the hope of these cities. That's the hope of

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the world is Jesus Christ. We're very respectable, but please

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don't push me there. We're here. We're here to worship Jesus.

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That's why we're here. Okay, that's why we're here.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 5: That's what we're about, which you think Jesus would be understanding.

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We're about the mode. We're about straying the love of Jesus.

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Speaker 4: Did you try to talk to them as as everyone

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is willing to talk.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I have to take care of my church. And

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my family. So I asked this, you actually would also

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leave this globe.

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Speaker 4: You don't want us to worship.

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Speaker 5: I'm always worship. I'm a Christian. We're here, well, we're

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here to worship.

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Speaker 2: We're here to worship.

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Speaker 5: Okay, thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: I apprecive that. I'm sure as someone who follows journalism

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very closely, this this popped up on your radar? Is

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this where so called independent journalism is heading today? Invading churches?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I hope not it's but it is. It's interesting.

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You know that Don.

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Speaker 3: Lemon doesn't understand the Firstmen very well and sort of

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the difference between public and private spaces and a protest

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and a sort of you know, disruption of other people's

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rights to assemble and worship. You know, I I'm a

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little concerned that he didn't get a very good education

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at CNN.

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Speaker 2: About these sort of rules.

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Speaker 3: But I would say that, look independent journalism first, I

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you know, I always question what being independent means. If

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you're embedding with a protest group, it doesn't seem particularly

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independent to me, and you kind of have to wonder

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how that's getting organized. How he ended up there. You know,

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it of course is not at sort of the the

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extreme level of the example I'm about to use, which

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is much worse, but it sort of reminds me of

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the reporters who are embedded with the Palestinians on October seventh.

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Speaker 2: How would they rund up? You know, how do you

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end up?

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Speaker 3: Are you really independent if you're in the right place,

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in the right time to cover a story like that?

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Speaker 2: Right? And so, you know, I think the.

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Speaker 3: So I think the main thing is that with independent journalists,

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one challenge and this is both on on left and right.

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I just think you know, you saw it particularly agrees

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like egregious breach of journalists and ethics with Don Lemon

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in this case, but all independent journalists actually need to

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learn and inform them of what journalistic ethics look like,

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especially if you're going to try to be confrontational in a.

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Speaker 2: Setting you know that like this. You know, I think.

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Speaker 3: Maybe for decent people or people with manners, you know,

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you wouldn't even consider this. But I think, you know,

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just understanding the First Amendment would have prevented Don Lemon

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from making this mistake. And now you know, ah, he's

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will likely face some kind of lawsuit, some sort of consequences,

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and you know, I doubt he he really understood what

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he was getting himself into.

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Speaker 1: Well, Don Lemon has been down that road before. Let's

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listen to a little bit of this. It's Don Lemon

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trying to explain that coming to the United States illegal

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without documentation coming in is not a criminal offense. Folks

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that he was asking about this on the street put him,

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put him straight on that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, crossing the border illegally is not a crime.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not a criminal act.

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Speaker 5: It's a misdemeanor.

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Speaker 2: So why are they being sent back and saying.

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Speaker 4: That they're breaking the law.

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Speaker 2: That's the point, Okay, as somebody that we don't.

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Speaker 4: Know what they're breaking the law because they won't tell

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there's no due process, where's the evidence? That's the whole point.

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And if they are breaking the law, most people will say, okay,

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then they need to go at their criminals. But if

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they're not, why are they being rounded up and sent out?

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Especially when he promised to deport the criminals and now

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he's not doing that.

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Speaker 5: I don't think we're going.

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Speaker 2: So minnor is.

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Speaker 4: He's not a criminal act. No, if you get charged

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with a misdemeanor, that's.

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Speaker 1: Not a criminal.

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Speaker 4: If it's not a criminal act because we have different

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levels of crime. Everything is not the same.

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Speaker 1: We have different levels.

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Speaker 4: Of actually say crime, but it's not it's not you're

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not it's not a crime. You're not breaking the law.

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I mean you are breaking the law, but it's not

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a criminal act.

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Speaker 2: No, if you're speeding, drinking you pulled over, y.

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Speaker 4: That's not a criminal Well no, if you're speeding is

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a misdemeanor.

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Speaker 5: Right, So still breaking?

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well if you want to, if you want to

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qualify that, we're do with semantics. But what I'm saying

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but what I'm trying to tell you is everything is

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not the same.

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Speaker 1: It's all not one thing.

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 5: What is it the law that would is it a

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law to come over the law? Is there a law?

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There are?

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Speaker 4: There are rules that are processes that you should follow. Yeah,

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so you're breaking rules, you're breaking the rules, but you're

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not necessarily breaking a law.

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Speaker 1: We are talking today on this edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour with Ryan Wolf, director of the Fund for

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American Studies Center for Excellence in Journalism. Ryan joins us

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today for a conversation on fixing the fourth estate that

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includes the kinds of fellowships and programs that that the

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Fund for American Studies is running like the New Journalism

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Excellence Fellowship. I the OtherSide of what we were talking

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about with Don Lemon or you know, it's the same,

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it's in the same arena. It's independent journalism. What did

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you think of Nick Swisher? Excuse me? What was his

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n Nick Swisher? Surely Nick Shirley. Excuse me. I don't

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know why I want to call him Swisher for some reason,

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But Nick Shirley, what did you think of his independent

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journalism that kind of broke open or at least put

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increased focus on this fraud scandal hitting Minnesota. And what

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he really did was what they we used to do

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when we were young journalists, and that was go to

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places a shoe leather approach.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I loved the spirit of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean I love that he went out and you know,

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brought a camera and went and actually tug in and investigated.

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Speaker 2: Uh you know, these these areas.

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Speaker 3: That I like that he had the the older guy

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with him who did all the research and and uh

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so he he knew where to go and Nick when

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and and and did the videos. And you know, I

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I I think that's great. You know, I think sort

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of at our programs, you know, we definitely encourage that

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kind of go out, find the story, do the job spirit.

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At the same time, I think, you know, there's there's

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a role for kind of uh some some more serious

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investigative journalism.

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Speaker 2: That's let's just say more more in the paperwork.

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Speaker 3: Uh that that can you know, cross the t's and

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dot the i's on all this stuff. But but also

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would anyone pay attention to the story if it was

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just paperwork?

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Speaker 2: Probably not right.

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Speaker 3: So it takes It takes lots of different people, and

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you know, I think someone who's just going out and

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asking questions and tracking down leads.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's what journalism is all about.

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Speaker 6: Do not believe government numbers? The watch Dout on Wall

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00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,720
Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack

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the connection between politics and the economy and how it

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affects your wallet.

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Speaker 2: It's not just.

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Speaker 6: About the CPI inflation numbers. Government is now saying health

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insurance is down by nineteen percent over the last five years.

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Does anybody believe that, whether it's happening in DC or

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down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially be informed.

347
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Check out the watch Dot on Wall Street podcast with

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00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:40,240
Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm often reminded in I've worked with a lot

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of good editors and I've worked with some not so

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good editors over the years, and I'm sure that all

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of those folks would have varying opinions of me. But

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I think about the CEO of The Federalist, Sean Davis.

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I think what he says is is right on for

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young journalists, for journalists of all kinds. He says, you know,

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the sources good, all fine and good, but give me

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the documentation. And the way that I think an excellent

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journalist goes about things is they get the documentation to

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back up the stories from the sources, and the sources

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are the faces of that story oftentimes. That's That's really

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what I hope to do as a journalist, what I've

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hoped to do throughout my very very long career in

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this business, And frankly, that's what i'd like to see

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from journalists moving forward. Although you know, we're seeing so

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much from a lot of corporate media outlets where they

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seem to have to take a side, particularly in the

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Trump era. Is that getting any better? I know you

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referenced some of these other areas where it's really more

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so about making sure that you don't lose half your audience,

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like Jimmy Kimmel and Steven Cole Bhar have done. In

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the news arena, Are they getting the message because you

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look at the polls, Ryan, and you see that the

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news business is somewhere around Congress in terms of popularity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, trust in pretty much every American

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institution is quite low. You know, there's a few that

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have tried to or have done a little bit better

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in maintaining trust, but in almost any American institution, if

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you look at the polls from twenty or thirty years ago,

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compare those poll numbers to today, they're going to be lower.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: So the media, I think is one of the ones

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that had gone down the most.

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of reasons for it.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, some of it's we see more

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of the behind the scenes. You know, reporters on Twitter

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express their personal opinions twenty four to seven because they think.

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Speaker 2: That's their job or part of their job.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there used to be policies where reporters

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you know, couldn't register.

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Speaker 2: To vote, and you know, how.

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Speaker 3: To keep their personal opinions to themselves and these things

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all kind of protected media institutions and help them see

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journalists as being more independent. And so, you know, I

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think a lot of it is these these older norms

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falling away, this sort of social media influencer culture coming

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in and replacing it. And so, you know, I think

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ultimately what you were saying about, you know, strong sourcing documentation,

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so not relying on anonymous sources for every story, which

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is seems to be the case more and more frequently,

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and you know, actually showing the public, hey, this is

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you know, how we got this story.

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Speaker 2: These are facts, you know. I think that's great.

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Speaker 3: And look, some outlets are trying to do different things,

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even if they might lean you.

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Speaker 2: Know, one way or the other.

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Speaker 3: But the outlet Somemaphore has you know, sort of the

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facts the reporters take, you know, sort of.

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Speaker 2: A counterview all in a news article.

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Speaker 3: So some places are trying to say, hey, how can

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we build trust into things differently?

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Speaker 2: But I think.

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Speaker 3: In politics it's it's quite hard these days for people

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to think that way and you know, I think a

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lot of the issues are very emotionally charged, you know,

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and it's hard for sort of you know, rules, norms, facts,

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documentation to override the sort of emotional part of any

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contested political issue that you get into.

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Speaker 1: I think you noted something that really has been emergent

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over the last few years. It probably goes back longer

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than but we've certainly really noticed them in the last

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election cycle, the influencer crowd. And I think the perfect

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example of that happened, you know, early on in the

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Trump administration when Trump turned to influencers to release what

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turned out to be a nothing burger of an Epstein report.

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And I think the administration really got burned on that,

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and I think the influencers got burned on that because

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what they brought to the public only further confused and

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infuriated the public. How much are in influencers going to

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still be able to influence moving forward after incidents like that?

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And are there young people coming out of journalism school

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going why did I go to journalism school? I just

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spent one hundred and fifty thousand dollars I could just

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be an influencer.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think you're going to see more

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and more of that, and.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think the problem with influencers is that

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they're not reporters most of the time, and even if

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they do reporting in specific cases, they often don't have

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the experience, the tools, the knowledge that would.

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Speaker 2: Be helpful to them and what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I think one of the challenges for

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influencers is if you're trying to cover a news story,

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if you're trying to get documents from the federal government,

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and you're trying to help an audience understand that. You know,

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one thing I'll say about influencers is they probably tend

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to have a certain ego that would not lend them

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to take my advice, which is to let someone who

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has more of a journalistic background actually help you look

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through these things and work with your audience.

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Speaker 2: You know, but that would probably create a better outcome.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think the future probably lends towards,

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you know, influencer brands, but perhaps with more of an

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actual journalistic staff for the ones who want to get

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into that business. Although I think for many for many influencers,

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the news business is not really something they want to

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actually put resources into So it'll be interesting to see

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where the rubber hits the road and whether.

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Speaker 2: Sort of.

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Speaker 3: Influencers in you know, conservative social media spaces, whether they think,

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you know, they are a news organization and they want

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to do real reporting, or if they are sort of

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amplifiers of sort of actual news.

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Speaker 2: Outlets that are doing themselves.

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Speaker 1: Is the influencer Ryan? Is that born out of something

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that and I worked with a news organization, a national

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news organization many years ago. One of the things they

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talked about is enlisting the assistance of what they called

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citizen journalists, and those were, you know, people who weren't

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really trained to be journalists, but they would show up

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at city council meetings or county board meetings. They would

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gather documents and they would roll video and get stuff that,

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you know, because of shrinking budgets and resource issues, that

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could assist in news coverage. Now, we had some great

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success with some of that, some of it was really

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a pain in the tuk us because it made you

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have to work that much harder because you had to

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go back with certain people and verify everything because a

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lot of times you would get something that really wasn't

479
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,880
good and sometimes you could get some things that could

480
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:28,279
get you before you know a judge. So is this

481
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:31,720
kind of the extension the influencer movement? Is that the

482
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:37,000
extension of what has been called citizen journalism in this country?

483
00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Sure?

484
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, it makes th think of

485
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:46,319
the Elon musk We you know, you're the media now,

486
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:50,640
And it's in a way it's true, just in the

487
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,480
sense of anyone has a phone and can record something

488
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:56,960
and can put it online for the world to see,

489
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:01,599
and that's the power that you know, didn't exist for

490
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,480
the average person until you know, the last really fifteen

491
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:12,519
years or so. So, you know, I think I think that,

492
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,599
on one hand, that's true. The influencers are somewhat of

493
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,920
an innovation on top of that in the sense of

494
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:25,960
now you're you're kind of having a little more concentration

495
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,480
in who disseminates information, retweets to reposts.

496
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,359
Speaker 2: You know, that that sort of thing.

497
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,759
Speaker 3: I think the stuff you're talking about, I think the

498
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,640
media outlets, you know, And this was sort of like

499
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,319
that early twenty.

500
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: Tens, late you know, aughts phenomenon.

501
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,599
Speaker 3: They thought they would be the ones to disseminate that

502
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:55,559
information from social media, but they sort of got out

503
00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:59,480
competed and also lost a lot of trust in the

504
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:02,519
last you know, a few decades, and I think that

505
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,720
has led to influencers who.

506
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: Have an audience that is maybe more niche.

507
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: But really trusts them and and then they sort of

508
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:17,599
look through, you know, they dig through the depths of

509
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,400
X and you know, try to find content to to

510
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,279
tweet out. I think the problem is from a journalistic

511
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,880
point of view, is that what you're saying, you need

512
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,200
people who are going to actually verify things as being factual.

513
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:40,599
One big challenge I think that's coming around is that

514
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:45,000
AI is going to be a real game changer in

515
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:48,759
this space as far as verifying the acts and.

516
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: Whether photos and videos are real.

517
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:58,079
Speaker 3: And and so the value of real journalistic institutions I

518
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:03,359
think is going to increase again. But I think the

519
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,519
question is is who are people actually going to trust?

520
00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:09,359
And that's very contested.

521
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

522
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: Indeed, I don't want to sound stodgy about this because

523
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,119
I think some of the best reporters out there and

524
00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:21,880
in the past have been people who didn't necessarily come

525
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:27,000
from a journalistic background. I mean, I can tell you,

526
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:32,599
for whatever my journalism is worth, my journalism career is worth.

527
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,559
I didn't go to a journalism school. I went to

528
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,079
school as an English major, for sure, and then I

529
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,559
kind of fell, you know, but backwards into every broadcast

530
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:48,680
and journalism job that I was ever in, and I learned.

531
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,359
I learned on the job. And I think that's exactly

532
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,079
what you are providing is the absolute is the ability

533
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,359
to really learn the craft, what it means means to

534
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,599
vet a story, what it means to talk to sources

535
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,920
to get information. I think that is what the fun

536
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:12,239
for American Studies, the Center for Excellence in Journalism has

537
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,079
done for a long time. But you mentioned AI, and

538
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:20,119
I would be remiss if I didn't ask you where

539
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:23,880
that will lead us in journalism. You kind of touched

540
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,119
upon it, But are you concerned at all that AI

541
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:32,119
will eventually drive journalists out of business and then become,

542
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,960
you know, again that trust issue that we're dealing with.

543
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 3: Sure, well, there's been a two ways to look at

544
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:48,440
this question. One is kind of how does AI change

545
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,639
the content that people consume? And there's there's sort of

546
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,639
an optimist and a pessimist view of this. The AI

547
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,519
optimists say, you know, it will kind of AI will

548
00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:06,360
optimize content for you know, the people looking at it,

549
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,119
so you'll get the algorithms will produce sort of the

550
00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:13,559
perfect content that you want to see and you want

551
00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:16,079
to watch, and it'll be so good and you'll never

552
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:21,360
stop watching. The other more pessimistic side says, you know,

553
00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:25,559
the AI slop thing is going to basically drive people

554
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:26,719
off of social media.

555
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,679
Speaker 2: And I'm a little bit more in that camp.

556
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 3: So I think in some ways that's an opportunity for

557
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,119
people who are real people producing content themselves as opposed to.

558
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:45,199
Speaker 2: You know, AI content, And.

559
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 3: But I think the question long term is is, you know,

560
00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:54,360
what does it do to attention spans? What does it

561
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,800
do to viewing habits? Do people watch TV? Do people

562
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,719
read you know, news websites or sub stacks or whatever

563
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,000
it may be. You know, those those are some hard questions,

564
00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,400
but I think and it might get worse before it

565
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,199
gets better. But I do think AI content is not

566
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,039
very high quality, and people are going to start seeking

567
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:22,400
out quality and journalistic outlets can provide that.

568
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:24,079
Speaker 2: I think the.

569
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: Other part is that, you know, there's a lot of

570
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,119
people just sort of the advent of AI is creating

571
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,480
broader questions about technology used period and how much you

572
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:42,360
should be using technology, how much you should be on

573
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,800
your phone. You see this at a lot of you know,

574
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,800
schools that are banning phones, you know, in class now

575
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,039
for example. So, uh, you know, part of me wonders

576
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:55,239
if you'll see more people who want to, you know,

577
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,760
read print publications kind of go.

578
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: Back to a prior era.

579
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 3: One magazine tablet magazine started printing recently nationally, so you know,

580
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,320
there may be a counter trend, I think the But

581
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,199
I think the main thing that AI shows us is

582
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,239
that you know, the future is going to be weird,

583
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,760
It's going to be different, and the kind of effects

584
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:25,199
that can.

585
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:28,599
Speaker 2: Have are super wide ranging and all over the map.

586
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: But the one thing that AI can't do can't yet do,

587
00:37:32,559 --> 00:37:35,119
and if it could to it, you know, it sort

588
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:37,239
of might have a bit of a you know.

589
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,559
Speaker 2: Skynet quality to it.

590
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:48,079
Speaker 3: But I would say that, you know, you still need

591
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:52,079
to get new information and new stories from human beings,

592
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,800
and reporters are going to be the ones who are

593
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,719
going to do it. So I think if you were

594
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,639
a news aggregator who doesn't do any original reporting work,

595
00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:06,039
your job is going to go away. And if you're

596
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:11,039
relying on Google search traffic for your revenue, your revenue

597
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:13,960
is going to go down because AI is changing all

598
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,280
those things. But if you're someone who's doing the shoe

599
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,559
leather reporting and talking to people and has sources and

600
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:24,559
is breaking new news, then I think you'll.

601
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 2: Always have a job.

602
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:32,119
Speaker 3: So for the journalism industry, I think it will turn

603
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:37,840
out okay, but I think, you know, for society at large,

604
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,239
it'll be interesting to see what it does to sort

605
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,840
of our idea of media and how it changes our consumption.

606
00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:50,079
Speaker 1: News outlets will certainly be reporting on AI for the

607
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:54,840
foreseeable future, but you're absolutely right. It's an imperfect technology,

608
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,039
certainly at this point, and I don't know if it'll

609
00:38:57,039 --> 00:38:59,599
ever be perfect. But yeah, For instance, the other day,

610
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:04,960
I was looking up some information on Eric Swollwell and

611
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,519
I saw the AI photo that it brought had with

612
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:13,360
two faces, and that's well, wait a minute, that is correct.

613
00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:16,159
He does have two faces. That's right, he's a two

614
00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:20,480
face politician. But that's neither here nor there. Let me

615
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,079
close with this question for you, because your the core

616
00:39:26,119 --> 00:39:31,159
of your mission is the old Whitney Houston remake song.

617
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,039
I believe the children are the future. That's what you guys,

618
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,239
as that's what you do every day. Our JA schools

619
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:46,000
are any JAY schools getting the message that we don't

620
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:51,239
need activist journalism anymore, We don't need one sided journalism

621
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,039
anymore unless that is your operation and you're clear about it.

622
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:58,639
Because I don't find that to be a problem. It's

623
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,880
when you have news organizations that claim to be down

624
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,119
the middle, reporting only the facts, but turn out to

625
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:06,719
be active as journalists. What are we seeing in terms

626
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:07,880
of j schools today?

627
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: Journalism schools are pretty bad. They're sort of the worst,

628
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,880
uh you know, in in that they.

629
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: Combined all the things you don't like about academia with

630
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,599
all the things you don't like about the media.

631
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,119
Speaker 2: And so, you know, we.

632
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,119
Speaker 3: Tend to not work very much for journalism schools because

633
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,840
there is this challenge of uh, you know, kind of

634
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,320
understanding the biases in media that they don't seem to

635
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,159
be really interested in. But also, I would just say this,

636
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:48,920
going to journalism school is not a great idea.

637
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: I don't really recommend it to people. Like you were

638
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:53,880
saying the.

639
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: Bestlujah by the way, hallelujah you are you are, you

640
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,400
are singing, you are preaching to.

641
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:04,039
Speaker 3: The choir because doing the job is the best way

642
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:08,480
to learn right. And you know, I think a sort

643
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,599
of higher education has created this model where everyone needs

644
00:41:11,679 --> 00:41:14,119
to go to college and get a master's degree and

645
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,840
whatever they want to work in. Journalism is an old

646
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:22,880
trade and really the apprenticeship model is still works really

647
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,239
well in that and so I think, you know, actually

648
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,440
going and doing the job, you know, and we encourage that.

649
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:37,199
Students writing for the campus publications, We support interning with us,

650
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:38,719
doing fellowships with us.

651
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: Actually graduate, that's the best way to learn.

652
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: And so we often don't work with a lot of

653
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,079
actual journalism majors, which is another positive thing because you know,

654
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,880
they're studying philosophy, they're studying politics, economics, whatever it may be,

655
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,760
and are learning real things in their classes, and then

656
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,360
then they can take that knowledge and do more with

657
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,079
it as they write, as opposed to just learning about

658
00:42:10,119 --> 00:42:15,480
the craft of journalism and which you know, there are

659
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,440
some things to learn there, but it's not going to

660
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,280
teach you as much as reading the great books and

661
00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:28,239
having a basic understanding of economics, right, I mean, that's

662
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,639
way more I think essential to being a good writer

663
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:32,760
and being a good journalist.

664
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I only wish our members of Congress had the

665
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:40,800
same concept of basic economics that would be very helpful

666
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,079
to the average American. Well, and that's why I appreciate

667
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,280
I really do what you folks have done and continue

668
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,280
to do at the Fund for American Studies in the

669
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:57,159
Center for Excellence in Journalism. Final point. You know, we

670
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,800
talked about the new Journalism Excellence follow Fellowship, but that's

671
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,639
just one of many programs that you're running to bring

672
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:07,920
in the next generation of journalists.

673
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,559
Speaker 2: That's right, Yes, So we do a lot.

674
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 3: You know, we start on college campuses, so college students come,

675
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:22,559
they write, or we have thirty campus publications that we sponsor,

676
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:25,960
or they can be individual student members, and we get

677
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,559
them plugged in with other opportunities to freelance, and they

678
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:34,719
come inter and with us in the summer. After that,

679
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,760
when they graduate, we have our reg O Fellowship at

680
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,760
the Wall Street Journal, which these new fellowships are modeled after.

681
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,039
So those are for you know, young journalists the last

682
00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:47,599
five years of experience to get sort of a job

683
00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:51,639
in the major leagues for nine months, and then from there,

684
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,800
we have a program called the Media Accelerator Fellowship that's

685
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,159
for young reporters in d C really helping them find

686
00:43:59,159 --> 00:44:02,800
their beat, learn more sort of on the ideas side

687
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,440
about liberty and responsibility and journalism and just.

688
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: Improve at their craft. And then we have the Robert Novak.

689
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,119
Speaker 3: Fellowship, which is for more mid career journalists and we

690
00:44:13,159 --> 00:44:17,800
support sort of long term investigative reporting projects through that program. So,

691
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,599
you know, starting from freshman year on campus to you know,

692
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,639
seven years into someone's professional career, we're there to help

693
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:27,599
them be successful.

694
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,559
Speaker 1: You want to fix the fourth estate, That's how you

695
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:33,599
do it. That's a big part of how you do it.

696
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,440
Exactly what is being done and has been done for

697
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:42,199
some time at the Fund for American Studies Center for

698
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:47,000
Excellence in Journalism. I want to thank our guests today

699
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:51,519
for joining us. Ryan Wolf, director of the Fund for

700
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,960
American Studies Center for Excellence in Journalism. You've been listening

701
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,159
to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm at Kittle,

702
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,360
Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back more.

703
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,519
We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers

704
00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:25,119
of freedom and anxious for the Fray