WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:02.319 Taboo science Science. 2 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:08.080 Hi, Taboo Science listeners. While we're in between new episodes 3 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:10.439 of the show, I wanted to introduce you to one 4 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:15.160 of my very favorite podcasts. It's called Sing for Science, 5 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:18.719 and it's what happens when you put a famous musician 6 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:21.719 with a nerdy streak in a room with a scientist 7 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.519 and record their conversation. Some of my favorite episodes have 8 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:29.960 been wilco's Jeff Tweety talking about consciousness with Cornell computational 9 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:35.159 psychologist doctor Shimon Edelman, Jose Gonzalez talking secular humanism with 10 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.679 physicist Brian Cox, and Casey Musgraves talking psilocybin with my 11 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:43.880 cologist Paul Stammetz. It was actually really hard to choose 12 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:48.039 just one episode to share, but because Halloween is approaching, 13 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:52.920 you are going to hear this fascinating conversation between Korn's 14 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:57.560 Jonathan Davis and my science writing idol Mary Roach, all 15 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:03.439 about mortuary science. It is taboo science, indeed, I hope 16 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:04.239 you enjoy. 17 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:08.280 Singh for Science is made possible in part by support 18 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:12.959 from Science Sandbox, an initiative of the Simons Foundation. Today's 19 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:18.000 episode was recorded remotely from Bakersfield, California, and Oakland, California, 20 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.439 and it contains content related to mortuary science that some 21 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:24.760 listeners may find disturbing. Be sure to check out our 22 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:26.920 other episodes, and please enjoy the show. 23 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:34.079 When I crack a brain a head open, it was decomposed, 24 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.120 the brain was liquefied with soup, and. 25 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.920 It comes out the ears. Someone told me sometimes it 26 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:40.359 kind of bubbles out the ears. 27 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.560 If you cut into the skull and you cracked the 28 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:43.680 skull cap off. 29 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.000 It's soup. Yeah. And then there's something called frothy purge, 30 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:50.959 which I love lingo. I love the lingo of science, 31 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:52.879 and there were some great ones. 32 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.040 Frothy per It just bubbles come out of there. 33 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.519 Yeah, right right, the bubble's coming out. You've got your 34 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:06.879 plane purge, your frothy purgey. Nun one one nine. 35 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.199 Welcome to Sing for Science, the show where musicians and 36 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:18.240 scientists talk about music and science. I'm your host, Matt White. 37 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.000 Each week we'll talk about a song by our guest 38 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:24.080 artist and how it connects with our guest scientists area 39 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:28.639 of expertise. Today, we'll be speaking with Jonathan Davis, frontman 40 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:33.439 of the pioneering metal band corn Korn's most commercially successful album, 41 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.800 was nineteen ninety eight's followed the Leader, having hit number 42 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:41.199 one across four charts and sold over fourteen million albums worldwide. 43 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:45.759 The album's fourth track is called Dead Bodies Everywhere and 44 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.560 was inspired in part by Jonathan's job working in a 45 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.680 morgue before his music career took off. Also joining us 46 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:57.000 is best selling popular science writer Mary Roach. Mary is 47 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.560 the author of a string of one word science books, 48 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:03.879 including Spook, Bonk, and Fuzz. The first in this series 49 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.080 is two thousand and three Stiff The Curious Lives of 50 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:11.560 Human Cadavers, and won Mary several awards and critical distinctions. 51 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.000 Her reporting not only details the unique scientific contributions of 52 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:20.360 the deceased, but also provides elaborate explanations into the process 53 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.000 of tissue decay and how mortuary science works to stall it. 54 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.240 The title of this week's episode on the podcast is 55 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:33.439 Dead Bodies Everywhere post Mortem Biology and Funerary Science. Hello, 56 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.479 Jonathan and Mary, thanks for coming on the show. 57 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:37.159 Hey, thanks for having us. 58 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:41.000 You know, I don't consider myself a morbid person, but 59 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.039 this is a dream come true. I gotta tell you. 60 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.439 I mean, I've been trying to find a reason to 61 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.360 have both of you on the show for a while, 62 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.120 and when I found out that you Jonathan used to 63 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.560 not only work in a morgue, but also wrote a 64 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:56.919 song related to that experience. So yeah, I mean the 65 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:59.400 whole thing practically writes itself. 66 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.960 For total songs about working there. What was the other one? 67 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.960 There's one? Uh, pretty Oh that was when I worked 68 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.080 a Uh it was an intense case. When I worked 69 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:10.800 at the corner's office. We can get in that later, 70 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.919 but there's that. And then the dead bodies was overflowing 71 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:16.319 the morg when I worked at the mortuary. 72 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.360 Okay, so dead bodies everywhere kind of spells out pretty 73 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.079 clearly what must have been like to work in a morgue. 74 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:24.199 But I know there's more to the song than just 75 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:25.240 about that, can you. 76 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:29.160 Yeah? Yeah, when I worked at the mortuary, my kitchen 77 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.800 was overflowed for the morg There's literally dead bodies were 78 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:36.000 everywhere when the morgue was fooled, and we would put 79 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:37.600 some more into my kitchen, which I had a little 80 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.360 apartment in the mortuary when we had too many, too 81 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.360 many bodies or too many you know, bodies were backed up. 82 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.319 We're waiting for funerals after we get done in bombing them. 83 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.360 They would have to put them on, you know, on 84 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:51.319 the tables, and they'd sit there waiting to get dressed 85 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.000 and put in the caskets and all this stuff like that. 86 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.319 So sometimes we get a lot of cases. And then 87 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.040 my overflow was my kitchen and literally I come out 88 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.399 of my bedroom when there's dead b everywhere. Holy shit. 89 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.279 So it's good that they were embombed already. That's good. 90 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:05.639 Yeah. 91 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:07.399 Yeah, you don't want to know, you know, because that 92 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:09.120 could be fragrant. 93 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.800 Desumps are not fun. 94 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:13.279 No, And so was this in Bakersfield? Yeah, because it's 95 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:14.879 hot there, so you don't want a message. 96 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.160 But they were bomb. What's here in bomb? They're fine? 97 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:19.560 Were you still a teenager when you had this job. 98 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.279 I first started doing posts when I was seventeen years old, Yes, 99 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.360 and that was at the corner's office. And then from 100 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.680 there I graduated high school and went directly to San 101 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:32.360 Francisco College Mortuary science. 102 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:35.399 Oh I went there was Mac there. 103 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.399 Mac was Mac was my my chemistry and a teacher. Yeah, 104 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.920 he was. He had this big kidney stone in his 105 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.079 class that he said he they took out or pat 106 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.160 It was ginormous. He was. 107 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:52.879 I knew that there was going to be a gazillion 108 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:53.839 points of connection that. 109 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.279 This is a small little clique, it's a small small industry. 110 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.639 So how did you get drawn into that world in 111 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:01.319 the first place. 112 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.959 I just always, since I think from I can remember, 113 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.319 I was always drawn towards darker things. Those things intrigued 114 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.519 me and still intrigue me. I mean, I'm going to 115 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:14.439 love happiness and light and all that stuff too, but 116 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.600 also there's the dark. And at that point in my mind, 117 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:19.680 I was like thinking, Oh, when I was in high school, 118 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.360 I went to this thing called Regional Occupation Program and 119 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.319 they had the Corner's Office is one of the things 120 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.399 you could go do. A lot of people were studying 121 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.240 to go be X ray text or respiratory therapists, but 122 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.759 I chose autopsy assistant. Wow, And it wasn't like a 123 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.680 oh school, go just jump in there. I had to 124 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.160 go through three different interviews and go through a psychological 125 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:40.399 back and they I did all this stuff, all these 126 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:42.839 different interviews and all this stuff to be able to 127 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.759 do that, and I passed all of them. And I 128 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.759 started my junior year of high school as an autopsy 129 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:52.759 assistant for the County Corner's Office. 130 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:55.720 And so do you remember your first autopsy, like yesterday. 131 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:57.879 I'll never forget that. It was like you came face 132 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:00.639 to face with mortality right there. It's like, and I 133 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.399 learned it in college that America is a death denying society. 134 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:05.399 We all think we're going to live forever, but when 135 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:07.319 you're staring death right in the face. And this wasn't 136 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:09.120 a very nice one. This was a car accident and 137 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.600 this person was pretty beat up. It really shocked me. 138 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.120 And I'll never forget the sound of a scalpel cutting flesh. 139 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:18.560 I'll never forget the first time I saw the viscera 140 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:20.720 lane opening up in a ye incision and seeing the 141 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.439 vispery all there. I'll never forget those thing's doctor going 142 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.639 there taking samples and then me having to sew them up. 143 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:29.399 Just like. It really affected me. 144 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.279 I mean, how could it not. It's just reality, Yeah, 145 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.319 but dead bodies everywhere. There's another component to it. It 146 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.160 seems like it addresses your relationship with your parents. 147 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:40.240 Yeah, yeah, because of it, Like they wanted me to 148 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:42.480 do this or that, like you need to get a 149 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.439 go real job. That kind of just the normal stuff 150 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.279 parents do. Because I'm a parent, I want my son 151 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.879 to be successful. My sons to be successful, and they 152 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.800 just wanted me to get a normal job, and I'm 153 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.319 not normal. I guess what they a't on those terms. 154 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.160 I chose to be a mortician or an autopsy assistant 155 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:58.879 because I'm really, in my heart I wanted to be 156 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.720 a musician, but they were pushing me, No, you can't. 157 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:03.560 You're not going to make it as a musician. You 158 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.879 need to have a real job. That kind of vine. Yeah, 159 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.279 they kind of like pushed me into that. And then 160 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.079 in turn, and I've always said this, I shouldn't have 161 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:13.600 been doing autopsies at seventeen years old. I shouldn't have 162 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.920 seen the things I saw at seventeen years old, because 163 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.040 it really missed me up. I had nightmares for a 164 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:21.120 long time. I had all kinds of stuff that I 165 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.759 had to work through because I was subjected to this 166 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.360 horrifying things that I saw at such an early age, 167 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:29.920 but no one knew at the time, and I was 168 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:31.639 really enjoyed it in the line on myself, but I 169 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:34.120 saw some really bad stuff I shouldn't have seen. 170 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:39.840 In the timeline of Korn's career. That was what five 171 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.679 years before your first record, So. 172 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.720 Yeah, I was I worked at the mortuary when you 173 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:47.399 see eighty nine went to Mortuary colleg ninety one ninety two, 174 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:50.320 ninety three. I was doing my apprenticeship at the mortuary 175 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:56.159 and I was a volunteer deputy corner and doing autopsies 176 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.200 sometimes when they needed my home. And then my apprenticeship 177 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.039 ended and I got the opportunity to go try out 178 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:04.879 for this band and was did turn out to be 179 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.200 Corn and I just left it all behind after that, Yeah, 180 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.240 to go with my heart. What I really really want. 181 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.320 To do is be a musician, right, And I was 182 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:13.080 just looking at your last tour. I mean, you guys 183 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.440 are still doing arenas. I mean, not many people get 184 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.519 to do that besides Stones. Yeah, I don't know. It's 185 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:19.120 just amazing. 186 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.559 I'm very lucky to be just twenty eight years and 187 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.240 I'm still playing amphitheaters and arenas, and I'm very very lucky. 188 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:26.720 I know this. 189 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:29.519 It's incredible. And what's interesting is it seems like you 190 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:31.840 acknowledge that you've always kind of been drawn to the 191 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:36.639 darker elements. And I dug up this profile of you guys, 192 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:38.840 or maybe it was just a view from Melody Maker 193 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.159 maybe late nineties, and they call you a quote an 194 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:45.559 icon for the disturbed and dispossessed, you know, which kind 195 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.320 of tracks with someone who might have had a job 196 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.120 in a morgue. But they also they talk about your performance, 197 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:53.960 and it was talking about the way that you were 198 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:55.879 on stage and you were kicking, and it was kind 199 00:09:55.879 --> 00:10:00.799 of a withdrawn way of processing emotions. And I I 200 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.440 watched a recent show of you guys, there was something 201 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:08.840 so incredibly life affirming about it and open and positive, 202 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:11.799 and not to say that the former maybe didn't have 203 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.120 those elements, and I realized that was a much different 204 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:17.120 chapter in your life. But I think it's worth remarking 205 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.759 on that you're able to kind of combine those elements 206 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:22.600 and you're still singing songs called dead Bodies everywhere. 207 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.799 Yeah. Man, it's the way I've dealt with everything I've 208 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.320 been through in my life. I've had a very happy 209 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.799 life and now it's amazing. I mean, but I think 210 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:34.759 it's like everybody. We have our ups and downs, and 211 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.120 I choose to do my art on the darker stuff 212 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.480 in my life and it really moves me. So when 213 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.639 I get up there and sing those songs, I'm just 214 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.799 letting loose. I let loose, I just go somewhere else, 215 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:48.559 I let all the emotions come out, and then when 216 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.200 I'm done, I just kick back and I'm happy because 217 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.279 I don't have any of this stuff built up inside me. Yeah, 218 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.559 it's just how I've figured out how to get through 219 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:57.080 my life. 220 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:58.919 It's a beautiful thing to see, you know. 221 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:00.320 Yeah. 222 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.360 So it sounds like maybe just some degree, you're able 223 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:04.799 to compartmentalize a lot of these interests. I mean, do 224 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.679 you still have some interest in mortuary science. 225 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.000 I mean I collect all kinds of stuff. I still 226 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.639 love mortuary science. I have a bunch of of old 227 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:19.240 mortuary equipment and stuff like that. I love medical preparations. 228 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:23.360 I collect those old ones, old quack medicine stuff. There's 229 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:26.799 all these different ones. There's these it's stupid, but I 230 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:29.679 got like these just quack medicine stuff. This is a 231 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.639 perfect one. These crazy box of rectal plugs are supposed 232 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.519 to help you cure asthma and insomnia. Just funny, just 233 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:39.440 I love that old quack medicine stuff. 234 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:41.519 Bougies they call them bougies. 235 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:44.279 Bougies is that those. 236 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:47.080 Are the real dilators. And they would sell them in kits, 237 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:49.200 like they'd get bigger and bigger, like you could have 238 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.159 the advanced rectal dilator. 239 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:56.519 Yeah, which should be like you graduate, wow after so long? Yeah, 240 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.559 just stuff like that I like to collect. I have 241 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.279 a bunch of of like haunted artifacts and all kinds 242 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.679 of stuff, more of the Macob stuff. That's just it 243 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:07.480 inspires me and I love being around it. 244 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.799 What's your source? Like? Is it an eBay? Do you 245 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:10.879 look for that kind of thing? 246 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.639 Just stuff finds me? Man, I swear yeah, I'm it 247 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:19.120 really does. I don't actively go looking, but most of 248 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:20.960 the stuff I founding my hunted doll stuff like that. 249 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.080 It's because I go around like town and when I'm 250 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.559 on tour, I'm gonna ask what is one thing in 251 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:29.840 here that makes you feel the most uneasy? And there's 252 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.120 always something. Oh, come here and not buy that. 253 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.000 Were you familiar with Mary's book? Had that ever come 254 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:36.879 across your desk? 255 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.519 No? But I definitely want to check some of your 256 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:41.480 books out. Well. 257 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.879 This one is an amazing book. I got it for 258 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.399 Christmas when it came out in two thousand and three 259 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:49.519 or four, and it's still, not surprisingly, one of the 260 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:53.240 most memorable books I've ever read. I can still retell 261 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.679 certain passages. So, Mary, what stands out in your mind 262 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:01.120 because exhaustive research went into this. You're visiting morgues, you're 263 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.799 visiting crash tests with cadavers, you're visiting this body farm, 264 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.039 which is insane. What stands out in your memory twenty 265 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:10.519 years later, I. 266 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.720 Think the I guess the body farm. But I was 267 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.759 gonna say the very first chapter I reported was at 268 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:21.879 the mortuary college that Jonathan went to, and it was 269 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:26.519 the first time I'd seen a body other than I 270 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.960 had a job as a janitor at college where I 271 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.399 grew up in high school. I was a cleaner, but 272 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:34.559 one time I got assigned to the morgue. But those 273 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:39.039 bodies were all under these kind of clear plastic tarps, 274 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.320 so it was which was kind of creepier in a 275 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.200 way because it was dark, it was after hours, and 276 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:48.399 I was like with my broom. So that's actually technically 277 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.679 the first dead bodies I've seen. But the one that 278 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:55.039 I saw, okay, the one that they were being trained 279 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.639 on was a body. It was a reject. You know, 280 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.320 this guy had donated himself to medical science, but he 281 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.919 was rejected because he had an autopsy. So he's got 282 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.080 this See he's like his torso is just like a 283 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:11.519 gaping red hole, and I'm not prepared for that. And 284 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.679 I'm like, heay, you know, with the viscera bag, but 285 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:17.720 without the organs, you know, they're in the bag, and 286 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:21.879 it's this just this blood red shell. And I realized 287 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.120 years later because for a few days after that, that 288 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:27.200 image kept popping into my head and I was thinking, 289 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.279 maybe this book wasn't such a smart maybe I'm not 290 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:32.639 okay with this. 291 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:33.679 But again two. 292 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.879 Days, three days later, the images started going away. But 293 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.759 that is I realized much later. That's something people with 294 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.960 PTSD have that, or these really gruesome things like that 295 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:45.919 they've seen pop into their head. I don't know if 296 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:47.279 you ever had. 297 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:52.120 That, Jonathan, Yeah, a lot, because I did autopsy babies, 298 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:56.080 oh Man, and toddlers in five and six year old children. 299 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.480 I did autopsy on this little boy and we opened 300 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.480 up this stomach. Can found a bag of rock cocaine 301 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.120 in it that he ingested. 302 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:05.200 Yeah. 303 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.000 I saw just things like I said that. Oh, it 304 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.320 still gets to me. I have children that just like. Oh, 305 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.600 I became such a hard I had no feeling and 306 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:15.879 I hated that I had to have no feelings. I 307 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:16.720 want to insane. 308 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:21.879 Yeah, I know this woman I met years later she's 309 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.000 the medical examiner for Oakland, California. We have a lot 310 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.559 of pretty grizzly crime here in Oakland. Yeah, and she 311 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.639 she said, Okay, you know, I think she made it 312 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.639 a personal goal to make me gag, which I had 313 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.200 never you know, people would say, did this book, did 314 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:38.960 you ever throw up? I'm like, nah, you know, I'm pretty, 315 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.639 I'm not squeamish. But she brought me in and there 316 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.080 were these I don't I don't know why I'm telling 317 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.200 you this. That really wasn't the question. But there was 318 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.240 these two people who had been found in an apartment 319 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.159 after I don't know. They were very bloated. They were 320 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.360 big people to begin with, and they were in that 321 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:59.759 bloat stage and she cut them open, and the smell 322 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.360 the world. Oh my god. I mean, I gaged. I've 323 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:05.679 never gagged in my life. I think of myself as 324 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.600 somebody pretty macho when it comes to things that are gross. 325 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:13.960 I left the room and she was like, what's the 326 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:15.720 big deal. It's just like changing a diaper. 327 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:20.200 I'm like, no, it's not diapers. Smell that smell. It's horrible. 328 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.519 And in your book you describe what is it the 329 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.279 root of that smell? I've never smelled anything beyond like 330 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.039 a dead road kill. Yeah, but could you talk a 331 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.440 little bit about that. What's what's going on there? 332 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.919 Well, what's going on basically is that when you die, 333 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.519 your cells have these enzymes and they you know, they 334 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:42.679 need to break things down so they can use them. 335 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.879 And when you die, they start these enzymes sort of 336 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.279 break down the cells themselves, so all the liquid in 337 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.200 all your cells kind of leaks out and you get 338 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:53.440 sort of gushy and there's a lot of fluid going 339 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.200 everywhere and bacteria love that. So the bacteria are going 340 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.759 crazy and the fluids making its way to the parts 341 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.799 of the where there's a lot of bacteria. The guts. 342 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.200 You know, once the guts open up in the there's 343 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:11.799 just this crazy bacterial feast. And bacteria when they're eating, uh, 344 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:16.359 they're like you. They break things down and a fart. Basically, 345 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.920 they they produce gas as you do when you eat 346 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.279 and digest. So they're digesting and they're releasing tons of gas, 347 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:28.079 which builds up and at some point your interior organs 348 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.519 may burst and so there's just a lot of room 349 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:33.759 for the gas to be going everywhere. So the things 350 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.799 that tend to be bloating. Are places where there's a 351 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.000 lot of bacteria, like the scrotum and the mouth and 352 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.839 the guts, so there's you know, I haven't discussed this 353 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.400 in a long time. I've like I just reread it. 354 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.200 So yeah, yeah, anyway, that's what's going on, and putre 355 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.960 faction is just more breaking down and liquefying. And at 356 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.440 the body farm, you would see in the advanced ages 357 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.559 of putre faction, it's kind of like a puddle all 358 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:06.319 around you kind of compared it to like in the 359 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.400 Wizard of Oz, the bad which is melting. You know, 360 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:15.119 this is becoming this pool. Yeah, so you're just becoming liquid, 361 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.799 except for of course you're depending on the how dry 362 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:20.960 it is. You know, your skin and bones take longer. 363 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.079 You're that's the last thing to go, you know. The 364 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.960 wetter stuff is like the brain goes, the eyes go fat. 365 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:29.920 The wet stuff goes first, and then the harder stuff 366 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.359 takes longer time to break down. And there's bugs that 367 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.480 help with that and sometimes rodents, so you know, the 368 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.039 whole thing ends up getting broken down though, one way 369 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.480 or another. 370 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.440 Could you tell Jonathan about the body farm what the 371 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:43.240 body farm was? 372 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.599 Oh? Sure, sure. The body Farm. There's a place at 373 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.799 University of Tennessee. Was the original That's where I went, 374 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.279 and Stiff there's now there's like everywhere. They have them 375 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.839 in different environments because it's a place to study the 376 00:18:55.880 --> 00:19:00.160 forensics of human decay, and that is something that is 377 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.880 used to try to solve crimes, like say you have 378 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.039 a body and you want to figure out how long 379 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.279 has this person been dead? How long have they been 380 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.200 lying there? In order to understand that, you've got to 381 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:15.880 factor in the temperature. Was the body wet, is it dries? 382 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.240 Is a very humid place or a very arid place. 383 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.319 Was the body clothed? Was it naked? Was it in water? 384 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.359 All of these things affect the timeline of decay. So 385 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:33.359 they study that and that information informs the criminal forensics process, 386 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.200 the process of figuring out how long this person has 387 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.079 been dead. So the body farm is the place where 388 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.240 they study that, and they've been doing that for years 389 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.240 because it used to be, you know, sometimes they were 390 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.200 way off and then they'd be a body would be 391 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:48.559 discovered and they'd say, yeah, this looks like six weeks, 392 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.599 and it would be like twenty five years, because it 393 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:55.559 just depends on Sometimes bodies are naturally preserved by the environment. 394 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:57.799 You know, if it's very air, they kind of mummify 395 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.759 and they don't look soupy and they don't you know, 396 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:06.279 break down completely. So anyway, that's the Body Farm. But 397 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:10.839 what I loved about it is that it's this beautiful 398 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.440 little patch of land, like off beyond beyond the medical center. 399 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.640 It's got hickory trees and squirrels, and it's really like 400 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.720 you walk in and you're like, Oh, this doesn't seem 401 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.319