Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 2: Bity me. This is the follow up to the number
Speaker 2: one national bestseller Twenty two Murders. The truth about the
Speaker 2: deadliest criminal incident in Canadian history has remained untold until now.
Speaker 2: Investigative journalist Paul Plangel's twenty two Murders examined the April
Speaker 2: twenty twenty shooting spree committed by Gabriel Whartman that began
Speaker 2: in portapic Nova, Scotia and ended thirteen and a half
Speaker 2: hours later when Whartman was shot dead by RCNP officers.
Speaker 2: The episodes left numerous serious questions in its wake, most
Speaker 2: especially why was the killer able to evade police in
Speaker 2: such limited geography for so long. Since then, the government
Speaker 2: called a public inquiry into the massacres, the Mass Casualty Commission,
Speaker 2: Though Pelango unearthed a treasure trove of evidence pointing to
Speaker 2: the possibility that Whartman or someone close to him was
Speaker 2: acting as a police agent. The Commission evaded all the
Speaker 2: big questions and let the RCMP off with a slap
Speaker 2: on the wrist. To this day, no one has been
Speaker 2: held accountable. In this new book, Pelango continues to crack
Speaker 2: the case, delving deeper into the evidence and testimonies of
Speaker 2: the witnesses who have been ignored, Drawing on his vast
Speaker 2: experience as an investigative reporter, his mind the thousands of
Speaker 2: pages of commissioned documents to reveal the wall of secrecy
Speaker 2: and deceptions constructed by the RCNP and the criminal justice system,
Speaker 2: exposing new facts that may alter the public's perception of
Speaker 2: what really happened. A touredive force of reportage, Anatomy of
Speaker 2: a cover Up, accomplishes what the commissions set out to do,
Speaker 2: uncover the truth about the Nova Scotia massacres and bring
Speaker 2: long overdue justice to its victims. The book they were
Speaker 2: featuring this evening is Anatomy of a cover up. The
Speaker 2: Truth about the RCNP and the Nova Scotia Massacres with
Speaker 2: my special guest, investigative journalist and author Paul Poleango. Welcome back,
Speaker 2: to the program and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Paul Polego.
Speaker 3: It's great to be back, Dan, thank you so.
Speaker 2: Much, and congratulations on your latest book, Anatomy of a
Speaker 2: cover Up.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: First off, just for people that are tuning in now
Speaker 2: and don't know the story of your other book, twenty
Speaker 2: two Murders, tell us just briefly about the publishing of
Speaker 2: the book twenty two Murders.
Speaker 3: Well after the massacres of twenty two people in Nova
Speaker 3: Scotia in April twenty twenty, on the weekend of eighteenth
Speaker 3: and nineteenth of that month, I became involved in the
Speaker 3: story and following the story, and it became apparent to
Speaker 3: me that the Roal Canadian amount of police were attempting
Speaker 3: to perpetrate a cover up. This was based on my
Speaker 3: experience and my lengthy experience with public inquiries and covering
Speaker 3: the RCMP. I've written five books about them, and when
Speaker 3: I looked at it, I thought that I've always seen
Speaker 3: cover ups retrospectively. I've come across them and late in
Speaker 3: the game and analyze them, and the media and politicians
Speaker 3: basically said, you're a conspiracy theorist, and I knew, you know,
Speaker 3: I was dealing with facts and that I could see
Speaker 3: this cover up coming, and I thought they would use
Speaker 3: the same playbook. So twenty two Murders was written to
Speaker 3: force a public inquiry that was going to be called
Speaker 3: into the massacres, to deal with people in facts and names.
Speaker 3: Things I put on the public record, and then I
Speaker 3: knew this would cause them to generate all kinds of
Speaker 3: paper and information they were likely going to hide. But
Speaker 3: once they did that, I knew where to look at
Speaker 3: how to find it. And that basically leads to the
Speaker 3: publication of anatomy of a cover up, because I take
Speaker 3: apart the cover up and show what happened, what was
Speaker 3: hidden in plain sight, and how it worked.
Speaker 2: You're right that there are twenty five truths about the
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia massacres. Twenty two of those truths have names.
Speaker 2: Tell us about the other three truths in this Nova
Speaker 2: Scotia massacres.
Speaker 3: Well, the main truth is that the RCMP RCMP officers
Speaker 3: on the ground during the thirteen and a half hour
Speaker 3: rampage by Gabriel Wortman that led to all these deaths
Speaker 3: did nothing. They saved no one. They didn't get in
Speaker 3: front of him. There were no roadblocks. He drove around
Speaker 3: for probably one hundred and fifty miles around Nova Scotia
Speaker 3: on a Sunday morning, picking off people. You're in there,
Speaker 3: including an RCMP constable, Heidi Stephenson. The other truth, one
Speaker 3: of the other truth is truth is they were lying,
Speaker 3: The government and the police were lying. They were covering up,
Speaker 3: and that was a truth that was evident from the beginning.
Speaker 3: There wasn't any other. So there was no heroism at
Speaker 3: all on the part of the RCMP, and they were
Speaker 3: protected from the beginning by the government, and governments involved
Speaker 3: the bureaucracy, the Department of Justice, and so the truth
Speaker 3: was stimied almost at every turn.
Speaker 2: This public inquiry was named the Mass Casualty Commission, and
Speaker 2: you talked about public inquiries that you had written about
Speaker 2: and witnessed before. What was this Mass Casualty Commission? What
Speaker 2: was its premise in the first place, as you write,
Speaker 2: how are they going to conduct this public inquiry?
Speaker 3: Well, right off the bat, the government indicated that it
Speaker 3: would be trauma informed, that they didn't want to hurt
Speaker 3: anyone else's feelings or cause any more of pain, and
Speaker 3: that the principles of restorative justice that are typical in
Speaker 3: the Indigenous community would be applied to it, which right
Speaker 3: away signal to me that some shenanigans were up. Because
Speaker 3: when the government says it cares about your feelings and
Speaker 3: the police say they're worried that they don't want to
Speaker 3: hurt your feelings anymore, I get really really suspicious. As
Speaker 3: for the restorative justice principles, there were no Indigenous people
Speaker 3: involved in this other than some of the police officers
Speaker 3: who many of them who did nothing. It signaled to
Speaker 3: me that they were not going to be playing this
Speaker 3: straight or trying to get to the real truth, which
Speaker 3: proved to be the fact.
Speaker 2: And you talk about that they threw around the word
Speaker 2: that governments always throw around this transparent, and see that
Speaker 2: this commission would be transparent.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's like Shakespeare would have had fun with that.
Speaker 3: Every time they got into a difficult situation where they
Speaker 3: were trying to hide something important, the commissioner, former Chief
Speaker 3: Justice of the Nova Scotia Supreme Court, J. Michael McDonald,
Speaker 3: would say we're going to be absolutely transparent here, and
Speaker 3: then as I go through it, I show you he
Speaker 3: was anything but transparent. It was totally opaque. They basically
Speaker 3: cut short testimony anything that was sort of headed into
Speaker 3: waters they didn't want to go where the transparency lay
Speaker 3: just prevented any real discussion of what happened. It was
Speaker 3: the opposite of transparent and every step of the way.
Speaker 2: What was the role of the victims families in terms
Speaker 2: of having this mass Casualty mission not proceed as the
Speaker 2: Mass Casualty Commission originally had planned. What was the role
Speaker 2: of the families in changing that direction?
Speaker 3: Well, in the months after the massacres in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: the government and the RCMP signaled that they were going
Speaker 3: to do a review and this review. Then they finally
Speaker 3: announced the review in July twenty twenty, which meant that
Speaker 3: these three commissioners McDonald and two others, one who was
Speaker 3: highly politically connected to the federal government was sort of
Speaker 3: a fixer for the federal government, would conduct a review,
Speaker 3: which meant they would look at all the paperwork in
Speaker 3: a hotel room somewhere, order sandwiches over a couple of days,
Speaker 3: find a couple of minor misdeeds, give the RCMP a
Speaker 3: slap on the rest, they go home. Nothing to see here.
Speaker 3: The families were so outraged by this review, as were
Speaker 3: a lot of citizens. Law school professors, lawyers, themselves politicians.
Speaker 3: I wrote about it extensively that this was part of
Speaker 3: the cover up. So then they announced the federal and
Speaker 3: provincial government announced a joint federal provincial public inquiry headed
Speaker 3: by the same three people who were going to conduct
Speaker 3: the review. So essentially they were still going to conduct
Speaker 3: the review, but pretend it was a public inquiry. And
Speaker 3: that's again largely what transpired.
Speaker 2: What were you doing and writing as a journalist, and
Speaker 2: what was the and tell us about Frank magazine.
Speaker 3: I started out, you know, I was in my early
Speaker 3: seventies when this started. I didn't think I'd be doing
Speaker 3: this for five years or longer. I started out wanting
Speaker 3: to help other journalists with what I knew about the
Speaker 3: RCMP and what they were doing based on my extensive
Speaker 3: knowledge writing about them for over thirty years. All the reporters,
Speaker 3: the mains, the legacy and alternative reporters basically said go away,
Speaker 3: old man, we don't need your help. And I could
Speaker 3: see the pattern that was emerging. They were going to
Speaker 3: cover the story for a couple of weeks and then
Speaker 3: lose interest and move on to the next flower show
Speaker 3: or the next shiny object. I was running out of
Speaker 3: places to publish. I had some places that took a
Speaker 3: story here and a story there, and eventually it got
Speaker 3: into the fall of twenty twenty, and I wanted to
Speaker 3: write about Lisa Banfield, who was the common law wife
Speaker 3: of the shooter, Gabriel Wortman. At this point, six to
Speaker 3: eight months afterwards, she had not been named by the government,
Speaker 3: the police. They were all protecting her, treating her as
Speaker 3: a victim. And the only one who had named her
Speaker 3: was Frank Magazine, and they cleverly described and Frank Magazine
Speaker 3: is a satirical magazine with two different versions of it,
Speaker 3: one in Ottawa and one on the East coast of
Speaker 3: Canada and the Atlantic. Frank cleverly did a piece on
Speaker 3: Lisa Banfield, calling her a hero and identifying her as
Speaker 3: a hero to get her name out and as Andrew Douglas,
Speaker 3: the editor of Frank said at the time, who could
Speaker 3: complain about that? But he got her name out there.
Speaker 3: And then as I investigated her, I wanted to write
Speaker 3: a story because I said, her story doesn't make sense
Speaker 3: to me. There are too many questions, and I was
Speaker 3: warned by other journalists don't do that. Women's groups will
Speaker 3: be marching on We had a business, we made fuse glass,
Speaker 3: and we had a business in Chester, Nova Scotia. And
Speaker 3: one reporter says, women's groups will be marching on your
Speaker 3: store and protesting because she's a victim and you're going
Speaker 3: to be victim shaming her. And I said, no, I
Speaker 3: don't believe her story, and there's supporting evidence why I
Speaker 3: should not believe her story and the public should know
Speaker 3: about it. So I went to Andrew Douglass at Frank
Speaker 3: Magazine and we cut a deal. I didn't want to
Speaker 3: write in Frank's satirical, starky fashion. I said, I'll just
Speaker 3: report the story and you run it. And that became
Speaker 3: sort of a marriage made in heavens. We transformed Frank
Speaker 3: from being a snarky satirical magazine and gossip magazine into
Speaker 3: a sort of a paper of record about the facts
Speaker 3: of the Nova Scotia massacres, and that worked out very
Speaker 3: very well. I mean we were able to get out stories,
Speaker 3: put names on the record, put scenarios on the record,
Speaker 3: basically find more of the real story, and back the
Speaker 3: police and the government into a corner.
Speaker 2: You talk about that. J Michael McDonald, former Chief Justice
Speaker 2: as Nova Scotia is the chairman of this commission, but
Speaker 2: also Leanne Fitch, former police chief and doctor Kim Stanton.
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us their backgrounds which seemed to
Speaker 2: be very in for this commission.
Speaker 3: Well. I found that McDonald from the beginning was a
Speaker 3: suspect choice as Chief Justice of the Nova Scotia Court.
Speaker 3: He was involved in a case overseeing a case years
Speaker 3: earlier involving the former Premier of Nova Scotia, Gerald Reagan,
Speaker 3: who was charged with multiple sexual offenses involving young girls.
Speaker 3: And when the case finally came to trial, Donald found
Speaker 3: a way to get the most serious charges stayed and
Speaker 3: eventually the others were dismissed. And people were outraged by this,
Speaker 3: and he was seen to be a Liberal Party bagman
Speaker 3: who would do favors for the Liberal Party which was
Speaker 3: in power at the time of the massacres at the
Speaker 3: federal level and the provincial level in Nova Scotia. Leanne
Speaker 3: Fitch was a for police chief in Fredericton, New Brunswick
Speaker 3: and she was applauded widely applauded for being the first
Speaker 3: openly gay female police chief in Canada. The problem with Fitch,
Speaker 3: there are many problems with Fitch. In my mind, she
Speaker 3: was married to a cop in Frederton. She was the
Speaker 3: police chief at the time. Gabriel Wortman was conducting some
Speaker 3: criminal activities in that area and she likely was aware
Speaker 3: of it and had an interest in covering it up.
Speaker 3: After she stopped being the police chief in New Brunswick
Speaker 3: in Frederton, she eventually became a member of the RCMP
Speaker 3: Management Advisory Board two months before the massacres. So she
Speaker 3: was in cahoots with had pictures taken with Lee Bergerman,
Speaker 3: the Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP in Nova Scotia. They
Speaker 3: were like buddies. They were all part of a women's
Speaker 3: policing group and she was as she continued to be
Speaker 3: part of the National Police in tell diligence operations and
Speaker 3: overseeing committees. So she was a police insider at every
Speaker 3: step of the way, in an RCMP insider. She resigned
Speaker 3: the Management Advisory Board thing. But her father was also
Speaker 3: a Mountie. Her late father was a Mountie. I mean,
Speaker 3: there's no way she should have been there overseeing what
Speaker 3: the mount he's had done. And as for Stanton, she
Speaker 3: was involved in women's groups and had written a trees
Speaker 3: on what the public inquiries are there to basically do
Speaker 3: social engineering, not to get to the facts. And that again,
Speaker 3: that's what happened, and I described the evolution of that
Speaker 3: public inquiry process. You know, Stanton was stating a fact,
Speaker 3: but she was the wrong person there. She was not
Speaker 3: you know, she was part of the women's groups, the
Speaker 3: women groups, and she was part of testified as witnesses.
Speaker 3: I don't know why. Nobody could understand why they were there,
Speaker 3: but the government sort of muddied the investigative side of
Speaker 3: things by bringing in indigenous groups and other groups that
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with us.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages now from this Mass Casualty Commission. What is
Speaker 2: it in the beginning their official narrative regarding Lisa Banfield
Speaker 2: and what is the initially their stated focus of this inquiry.
Speaker 3: Well, Lisa Banfield the official you know, the official narrative
Speaker 3: evolved to be something like this. It changes over time,
Speaker 3: but the initial narrative was there was a party at
Speaker 3: workmen in Banfield's warehouse, man Cave women Cave at one
Speaker 3: thirty six Orchard Beach Drive in Port of pech Nova, Scotia.
Speaker 3: A fight breaks out over some sort of conversation with
Speaker 3: a couple from Maine. Banfield goes home, goes to bed
Speaker 3: around seven o'clock at night. Workman eventually comes. There's a fight.
Speaker 3: He drags her out naked from bed, cuffs her around,
Speaker 3: ties her up with bathrobes, robe cords, handcuffs her, fires
Speaker 3: bullets near her head into the ground, burns his cottage down,
Speaker 3: locks her in the back of a replica police car
Speaker 3: that he had. She climbed through the silent patrolman, got
Speaker 3: out of the handcuffs, escaped into the woods and spent
Speaker 3: all night in the woods at zero degrees temperature that's
Speaker 3: thirty two degrees fahrenheit, so freezing temperatures, scantily clad, and
Speaker 3: eventually survived without hypothermia. And the Mass casually Commission and
Speaker 3: the AIRCNP shell her from the beginning as a victim
Speaker 3: of domestic violence, and the focus of the inquiry had
Speaker 3: nothing to do with it, would not delve into Gabriel
Speaker 3: Whartman's criminal background, which was extensive, but into sort of
Speaker 3: rather weak allegations about domestic violence. In fact, the most
Speaker 3: egregious event happened eight years earlier, and Lisa Banfield never
Speaker 3: made a complaint. In fact, she didn't even remember a
Speaker 3: complaint being made.
Speaker 2: You write that she had been interviewed initially by police
Speaker 2: and so, and she didn't speak in front of this
Speaker 2: commission till July twenty twenty two. She talks about what
Speaker 2: Whartman does after he puts her in the car and
Speaker 2: thinks she's secured in his cop car. What does she
Speaker 2: hear and what does she think the plan is for Wharpman,
Speaker 2: which includes her sister.
Speaker 3: Apparently, well, her story sort of, it's hard to nail
Speaker 3: down what the real story was, but you know, Worman
Speaker 3: said he was distressed by COVID. Her according to her,
Speaker 3: he was distressed by COVID. The world economy was failing.
Speaker 3: He was cashing out all his assets. He was going
Speaker 3: to become a survivalist. And then in a fit of rage,
Speaker 3: he burned down their beautiful, extensive log cabin cottage which
Speaker 3: was like a mini mansion, and burned down his warehouse.
Speaker 3: And then he was going to kill a bunch of people,
Speaker 3: including her sister, And eventually he killed the thirteen of
Speaker 3: his or He was accused of killing thirteen of his
Speaker 3: neighbors and nine other people. That was about it as
Speaker 3: far you know, I guess there twists in turns along
Speaker 3: the way, but we'll get into it.
Speaker 2: Tell us about Gabriel Wartman in terms of he's supposed
Speaker 2: to be this wealthy genturist, but also he has this
Speaker 2: he's a collector, and he has four known replica RCMP cars.
Speaker 3: Well not replica cars. He had four decommissioned police cars
Speaker 3: okay that were stripped, but one of them, twenty and
Speaker 3: seventeen four tourists he rebuilt into a replica of an
Speaker 3: actual police cruiser with a silent patrolman, a radar unit, lights, decals.
Speaker 3: It was to the you know, at a glance, it
Speaker 3: looked like a real police car.
Speaker 2: Also that he had numerous motorcycles, you say, sixteen motorbikes,
Speaker 2: he had four by fours. But also that he had
Speaker 2: a known reputation as a person that smuggled various things
Speaker 2: from Maine in the US.
Speaker 3: He when he went to university at the University of
Speaker 3: New Brunswick. For people who don't know, Fredericton is about
Speaker 3: a forty five minute hour drive from the border crossing
Speaker 3: at Holton, Maine, which is the top of I ninety
Speaker 3: five going down the East coast. When he was in Fredericton,
Speaker 3: he was hooked up with a crooked lawyer named Tom Evans.
Speaker 3: There are some suggestions that they had a relationship because
Speaker 3: Evans was gay and he'd had relationships with other young
Speaker 3: men and they were involved in smuggling cigarettes, guns, everything
Speaker 3: across the border, either the land crossings or by boat
Speaker 3: across the Bay of Fundy at the top of the
Speaker 3: Bay of Fundy, or not the Bay of Fundy but
Speaker 3: the Gulf of Maine in the top there. He'd been
Speaker 3: doing that and bragging about it for years. Drugs, guns, rifles, grenades,
Speaker 3: and he was bringing them into the country and then
Speaker 3: selling them and motorcycles motorcycle parts all the time. So
Speaker 3: he was he was active in doing this and there's
Speaker 3: some suggestion that the police knew about this, but nothing
Speaker 3: was done.
Speaker 2: Also, in the initial police report, Lisa Banfield pold police
Speaker 2: of the weaponry that she believed Warpman possessed.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, she professed to be someone who didn't know
Speaker 3: anything about guns, but then she would talk about them
Speaker 3: as military style guns, you know, a glock. He had
Speaker 3: a Ruger, a Ruger Mini, which was like a small
Speaker 3: AR fifteen. He had shot an antique shotgun and he
Speaker 3: had sniper rifles. I don't think she talked about the
Speaker 3: sniper rifles or the grenades. Others talked about them. But
Speaker 3: he had about four or five guns. But he always
Speaker 3: had a lot. But it wasn't a massive arsenal as
Speaker 3: the police made it out to be.
Speaker 2: At this inquiry, obviously, the commission talks about the police response.
Speaker 2: Lisa Banfield is not discovered by police till six thirty am.
Speaker 2: So this occurs after ten pm the night before. She
Speaker 2: has found at six thirty am. So tell us what
Speaker 2: the inquiry says and states as the police response initially
Speaker 2: to this massacre.
Speaker 3: Well, Lisa Banfield says, she disappears into the woods. She
Speaker 3: has no nothing on her feet, hands, It's zero degrees.
Speaker 3: It's snowed in Halifax, which is about an hour and
Speaker 3: twenty minute drive to the south that night, so it
Speaker 3: was very very cold and in the morning the police
Speaker 3: curiously there are thirteen people dead in the community. The
Speaker 3: RCMP doesn't know that, but they they know there are
Speaker 3: bodies lying on the road down Orchard Beach Drive, Lisa
Speaker 3: McCully and Corey Ellis, and they know there's a few
Speaker 3: other bodies at the house of the Blair family, but
Speaker 3: they don't know the extent of anything. And then they
Speaker 3: send off their members home around Speginning around six a m.
Speaker 3: And then, miraculously, at around six point thirty three, Banfield
Speaker 3: shows up at the house of Leon Jodrey, who lived
Speaker 3: at the north end of the portapict development. And Leon Jodrey,
Speaker 3: who worked in the as a department, you know, as
Speaker 3: a forester working for the provincial government, knew the forests
Speaker 3: and he said she came up and he was shocked
Speaker 3: to see her. And in his estimation, he told the
Speaker 3: original policeman he was dealing with, I don't believe her
Speaker 3: story that she was in the woods all night because
Speaker 3: she doesn't have hypothermia. She's not dirty, he said. She
Speaker 3: looked like she had fresh makeup on and her clothing
Speaker 3: was barely soiled. And then the commission, however, and the
Speaker 3: RCMP along the way, completely ignored Leon Jodriy. They just
Speaker 3: refused to deal the factor indications that Jodrey was harassed
Speaker 3: by the RCMP, and all that was accepted of the
Speaker 3: testimony was that Banfield was brutalized, she was lucky to survive,
Speaker 3: and never questioning depth about the nature of the fight
Speaker 3: she had with Wortman, the nature of their finances. As
Speaker 3: you pointed out, she testified in July twenty twenty two,
Speaker 3: July fifteenth, in fact, and it wasn't until a few
Speaker 3: days after she testified that Werbman and Banfield's financial records
Speaker 3: were put out and nobody that was never brought before
Speaker 3: the commission, the media never reported on it, and her
Speaker 3: financial records showed the contrary to the mcc and RCMP
Speaker 3: story that she made fifteen thousand dollars a year and
Speaker 3: was basically a work in sex slave of Wortmen. Well,
Speaker 3: she barely lived with Wortman in the nineteen months prior
Speaker 3: to the massacres on her visas alone, never mind her
Speaker 3: debit card or cash purchases. On her visas alone, she
Speaker 3: was spending in excess of approximately five tho two hundred
Speaker 3: dollars a month and the bills were all paid for,
Speaker 3: so almost one hundred and sixty thousand dollars and visas alone,
Speaker 3: twenty thousand at a discount clothing store, you know, twenty
Speaker 3: thousand here, ten thousand there at makeup stores. So she
Speaker 3: wasn't as hard done by as she seemed. But that
Speaker 3: was all kept from the public eye.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to the police and their stated reason
Speaker 2: for dismissing all of those RCNP officers at six in
Speaker 2: the morning. What was the reason behind them being let
Speaker 2: go go home?
Speaker 3: Well, they never really give a reason, Dan, I mean,
Speaker 3: the only reason we knew that they went home at
Speaker 3: six thirty early on was that at a roadside memorial
Speaker 3: for some of the victims who were killed on the
Speaker 3: second day, a mount he showed up in full dress,
Speaker 3: a teary eyed mount He showed up in full dress uniform.
Speaker 3: His name was Sergeant Dave Lilly, And in the while
Speaker 3: he was standing there, he told a reporter, a freelance
Speaker 3: reporter who was working for the Globe and Mail in Toronto,
Speaker 3: that everyone was sent home at six point thirty and
Speaker 3: he didn't understand why, and most of the contingent of
Speaker 3: mountings had gone home, and the next shift wasn't coming
Speaker 3: into like ten in the morning, and the RCMP never
Speaker 3: really explains why that happened. But in that gap, that's
Speaker 3: when Lisa Banfield showed up at Leon Jodrey's house and
Speaker 3: was whisked away to the hospital, but not even to
Speaker 3: the hospital. First to a sort of a command center,
Speaker 3: and then to the hospital. Her injuries, which were first
Speaker 3: described as minor by those attending her in the ambulance,
Speaker 3: suddenly became spinal injuries later and when she appears before
Speaker 3: the Mass Casualty Commission, she says she seems to have
Speaker 3: difficulty understanding or recounting what her injuries were, and says
Speaker 3: her wrist hurt from pulling off the handcuffs. But the
Speaker 3: problem with that story was that in the original story,
Speaker 3: and this is typical of the story. The original story,
Speaker 3: she was handcuffed in the back of the car. She
Speaker 3: escaped fro acculously from the handcuffs, crawled through the silent patrolman,
Speaker 3: and got away. But later on it was revealed the
Speaker 3: handcuffs were only on one wrist, So why did she
Speaker 3: struggle to take it off one risk when all she
Speaker 3: had to do was run. She's starting to be being killed. Sure,
Speaker 3: none of it made sense now.
Speaker 2: Also, the premise for the police, we talked about them
Speaker 2: going home at the round six am, six thirty am
Speaker 2: and before them before they even know of Lisa Banfield
Speaker 2: and what has happened to her before her account is
Speaker 2: in front of the police, But what is the premise,
Speaker 2: What is the what do the police believe is a
Speaker 2: situation with Whartman? Is he shot? Is he committed suicide?
Speaker 2: And can he leave? If not shot or committed suicide,
Speaker 2: can he leave port a Peak? Can he leave the air?
Speaker 2: What is the police position?
Speaker 3: Well, they figure that morning, they figure we have it
Speaker 3: locked down. There's only one main road out of the
Speaker 3: out of Portapec And later on they discovered a second
Speaker 3: road through a blueberry field and they blocked that off
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night. And then there's a
Speaker 3: small patrol of a swat team that they call him
Speaker 3: the Ert And in the RCMP, that small patrol heard
Speaker 3: a gunshot in the middle of the night and they thought,
Speaker 3: they speculated, oh, that's Gabriel Wortman committing suicide. So in
Speaker 3: the morning we'll go hunt the woods. And this is
Speaker 3: a heavily wooded area, small population, like only one hundred
Speaker 3: people probably year round, two hundred and fifty in the summer.
Speaker 3: They figured out, well, he's dead in the woods, and
Speaker 3: Lisa Banfield, Uh, she's probably dead in the woods. We'll
Speaker 3: go take care of the dead people who are lying
Speaker 3: out in the open. In the morning, they did nothing
Speaker 3: that a normal police force would do in this situation.
Speaker 3: And then this speculation such as it was, turned deadly
Speaker 3: because the next morning at nine point thirty they had
Speaker 3: to call about another fire an an hour's drive to
Speaker 3: the North Away shooting. Then there's three people dead there
Speaker 3: another person dead, and they wake up to the fact
Speaker 3: that Nova Special wakes up to the fact that Gabriel
Speaker 3: Wartman's driving around the province shooting people and the RCNP
Speaker 3: is seems completely flabbergasted and handcuffed and doesn't it what
Speaker 3: to do?
Speaker 2: You say, they're handcuffed. But part of that is that
Speaker 2: he has this replica RCMP car. Also, he has this
Speaker 2: person who has given him the cows which would make
Speaker 2: it look like a replica police car. And he has
Speaker 2: a replica RCNP uniform on No.
Speaker 3: He had a real RCMP uniform. His uncles and his
Speaker 3: cousin were RCMP officers. He had collected RCNP officers, postal
Speaker 3: employee uniforms, he fire department uniforms. He had all kinds
Speaker 3: of paraphernalia. And one of his best friends was a
Speaker 3: Halifax police officer on the Halifax Police Force. He had this.
Speaker 3: He had the police for the decals he got The
Speaker 3: interesting thing was the decals were installed by his neighbor
Speaker 3: who recently had been paroled. His name was Peter Griffin,
Speaker 3: and he was paroled after being charged in Alberta with
Speaker 3: drug trafficking and was hooked up with the Mexican Cartels
Speaker 3: and La Familia laf Familia and MS thirteen thel Salvadorian
Speaker 3: Street gang and the Hell's Angels because his family had
Speaker 3: ties to the Hell's Angels. Historically, Peter Griffin installed the
Speaker 3: decals on the police car while he was on parole
Speaker 3: and oddly never charged with any offense.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages. Now we're talking about the next day, thirteen
Speaker 2: people have been murdered. The police have no idea initially
Speaker 2: that next morning that he's hidden out nearby. They do
Speaker 2: not know that they have not contained him whatsoever, and
Speaker 2: most of the force believes he's dead anyway. But when
Speaker 2: they do get reports the next day him driving around
Speaker 2: shooting people, they use as communication the RCNP Twitter, even
Speaker 2: though they're not maybe using it to their full capacity,
Speaker 2: but also that they decide not to scare the public
Speaker 2: with reports of what Wartman is doing, so could you
Speaker 2: explain that for us.
Speaker 3: Well during the day. You know, this thirds at ten
Speaker 3: o'clock at night on Saturday night, and the first RCMP
Speaker 3: Republic report is about eleven twenty six pm when it
Speaker 3: puts out a Twitter notice saying that a tweet that
Speaker 3: the RCMP are responding to gunshots in the area of Portapic.
Speaker 3: It had been going on for an hour and a half,
Speaker 3: so they were trying to clean it up and they
Speaker 3: said people stay in their houses and during the night
Speaker 3: they had updated tweets. But the problem was and they
Speaker 3: were vague tweets, they weren't specific tweets. And the problem
Speaker 3: was that in Nova Scotia a small percentage of people
Speaker 3: followed Twitter at that time, and who follows it in
Speaker 3: the middle of the night anyways, and so none of that,
Speaker 3: there was no public warning put out. There was a
Speaker 3: public alert system in place, they didn't use it. So
Speaker 3: the next morning when he started up and he, you know,
Speaker 3: he started coming back to the area of porta Peck
Speaker 3: in his car after killing three people in Wentworth, a
Speaker 3: woman walking down the road on Highway four. And then
Speaker 3: eventually he goes to a house in a place called Glenholm,
Speaker 3: not that far from Portapec. He's going back to the
Speaker 3: area where the original killings are and there's no police.
Speaker 3: He goes to the house, the Fisher House at Glenholme.
Speaker 3: The RCMP respond lately to that. Well, the thing that
Speaker 3: happens there Dan He passes an RCMP corporal going to
Speaker 3: the house on Glenholm and the corporal recognizes him as
Speaker 3: the potential shooter, but is afraid to pursue him, so
Speaker 3: drives for almost a mile before he turns around and
Speaker 3: loses sight of him. Then the RCMP stage miss him again.
Speaker 3: He gets away, kills two home nurses who are in
Speaker 3: separate vehicles in a place called Bert and keeps driving
Speaker 3: towards Halifax. He goes through all a town called Truro,
Speaker 3: about fourteen thousand people. It has its own police force.
Speaker 3: They don't put out a warning. And this is the
Speaker 3: interesting thing. He is shown on camera driving through Truro,
Speaker 3: passing people walking on the street. He didn't shoot any
Speaker 3: of them, And you have to wonder why was he
Speaker 3: shooting the people he shot and why only in RCMP.
Speaker 2: Territory, right, And that's part of your discovery as well,
Speaker 2: with this entire anatomy of a cover up. Is the
Speaker 2: reasons why Gilbert Wartman killed some of the people that
Speaker 2: he did.
Speaker 3: Well, He killed some of the people. Gets back to Banfield.
Speaker 3: Bamfield was always portrayed as his common law wife of
Speaker 3: nineteen years, but the documents clearly show they had a
Speaker 3: polyamorous relationship, that he was her primary and she was
Speaker 3: his primary. Praises from the world of polyamory. So they
Speaker 3: were having sex with multiple people. It appears in the
Speaker 3: Rampage he shoots a number of women who he had
Speaker 3: had sexual partners, and it makes you wonder why did
Speaker 3: he do that? What was the purpose of that? Was
Speaker 3: he trying to please Banfield? Is a reasonable question. He
Speaker 3: killed one of the people. He one couple he killed
Speaker 3: the first ones, Jamie and Greg Blair. Jamie Blair haad
Speaker 3: ties to the to a Hell's Angels murder twenty years
Speaker 3: earlier killed Aaron Tuck, who had ties to another motorcycle gang.
Speaker 3: It just Sean McLeod was an Atlanta Jenkins who he
Speaker 3: killed on the Sunday morning and spent three hours unexplained
Speaker 3: to this day what he was doing at their house.
Speaker 3: They were corrections officers who worked at federal penitentiaries in
Speaker 3: Truro and spring Hill, Nova Scotia. No idea why he
Speaker 3: was there, and then he burned their house down after
Speaker 3: he left. It's just all very mysterious and it's never
Speaker 3: really explored.
Speaker 2: You explore some of that theory that you have in
Speaker 2: twenty two murders. What is your idea that you posit
Speaker 2: about his involvement potentially with the Hell's Angels and also
Speaker 2: with the RCMP themselves as a potential informant. Tell us
Speaker 2: what you've discovered.
Speaker 3: Well, it struck me looking at what I know about
Speaker 3: police operations, is that, especially in Canada, that when a
Speaker 3: special operation is coming to an end, it's usually the
Speaker 3: most dangerous that's the most dangerous time. When I was
Speaker 3: trying to understand what was going on in workman's world
Speaker 3: around him in Nova Scotia, Northern and Southern de Brunswick,
Speaker 3: which is right next door, I thought what police operations
Speaker 3: were going on at that time. So I did some investigation,
Speaker 3: and a giant operation that had been going on for
Speaker 3: a long period of time culminated with four arrests about
Speaker 3: eight days before the massacres, and I started to look
Speaker 3: at that and through various information I gathered, I was
Speaker 3: told by some sources that Workman was likely a confidential
Speaker 3: informative police agent involved in that operation. And the Hell's
Speaker 3: Angels are particularly visible in eastern Canada because it's a
Speaker 3: primary smuggling area. There's over three thousand you know, Nova
Speaker 3: Scotia alone has about three thousand miles of coastline and
Speaker 3: it's and it's tied to Maine, so it's a good
Speaker 3: place to smuggle. Wortman was involved in that, and he
Speaker 3: was he was so close to the criminal world that
Speaker 3: one of the amazing things about the Mass Casualty Commission
Speaker 3: that investigated this is they can find no criminal ties.
Speaker 3: They didn't want to explore that. One more point on
Speaker 3: that den as I get into the latter stages of
Speaker 3: the book, I show that there are strange relationships, strange
Speaker 3: things that Workman does. Are the way he identifies himself,
Speaker 3: and some of the conversations that are recorded in emails
Speaker 3: with Banfield and and some of the things he a
Speaker 3: policeman in Halifax says about him indicate Workman was likely
Speaker 3: a confidential informant. And this becomes sort of a conundrum
Speaker 3: because if Worbman was not a confidential informant, just an
Speaker 3: ordinary crazy guy, a dangerous who went crazy and shot
Speaker 3: a bunch of people. Why are these references in the
Speaker 3: record when you deal through the record like they shouldn't
Speaker 3: be there, There should be nothing linking him to the RCMP.
Speaker 3: And as I show in the book, there are all
Speaker 3: kinds of references, including I think one of the best
Speaker 3: that was completely misinterpreted by the mainstream media and the
Speaker 3: alternative media covering this was an allegation that Worbman threatened
Speaker 3: to kill a cop in twenty ten, twenty eleven. And
Speaker 3: I go over that and that the RCMP purge that
Speaker 3: from their records, but it was still in the records
Speaker 3: of municipal police forces in Nova Scotia. Why was that?
Speaker 3: And it finally became obvious that it was a cover
Speaker 3: likely a cover story for Workman as an agent or
Speaker 3: confidential informant. Because the police know the bikers can penetrate
Speaker 3: their records, that they wanted to vet someone and check
Speaker 3: out their bona fides to see if he really was
Speaker 3: a bad guy. They go into the records and see
Speaker 3: he threatened a cop. But even the cop he threatened
Speaker 3: said he had no recollection of this. It was a
Speaker 3: legend story, I think, But the other police forces had
Speaker 3: it in the records as if it was a real thing,
Speaker 3: and it came forward later. So that's part of the
Speaker 3: sort of shenanigans going on behind the scene that shouldn't
Speaker 3: be there if Wortman was not a confidential informant.
Speaker 2: You add some credibility to that with this strange Brinx
Speaker 2: delivery of four hundred and seventy five thousand, just previous
Speaker 2: to these massacres. Tell us what you discovered about that money.
Speaker 3: Because I was stymied by the media in conducting investigation,
Speaker 3: I used talk radio and got on a show there
Speaker 3: by Palk radio show, the Late now Late Rick Haw
Speaker 3: And one day I was on the show and I said,
Speaker 3: Stephen Are from mcclean's magazine has heard from a source
Speaker 3: that Worban's got a million dollars delivered to him in
Speaker 3: a bricks truck. And I heard from my own source
Speaker 3: that was four hundred and fifty thousand in a breaks truck,
Speaker 3: completely different sources. And so I went on Rick how
Speaker 3: one day and I said, I had this conundrum that
Speaker 3: we hear these two stories, and what is the truth.
Speaker 3: Why would I do that? Well, getting back to what
Speaker 3: we said earlier about the quality of media is so
Speaker 3: bad in Canada. There's no sort of sense of competition.
Speaker 3: You could tell them the story you were doing and
Speaker 3: no one would follow up on it. I could do
Speaker 3: it on the airwaves and say this is what I'm investigating,
Speaker 3: this is what I want. When I finished rick House
Speaker 3: Show that day, I got a call from someone who
Speaker 3: said it was four hundred and seventy five thousand, and
Speaker 3: I said, well, how can you approve it? He's and
Speaker 3: said I've got the video of him getting the money,
Speaker 3: and that it became a sort of a series of
Speaker 3: negotiations that got the video, and that was sort of
Speaker 3: the hallmark of an undercover operation, receiving money from a
Speaker 3: Brinks operation. The RCNP and the mass Causilty Commission had
Speaker 3: all kinds of documents saying it came from Workman's personal
Speaker 3: money that he had saved, but it never they never
Speaker 3: ever show where the money comes from. And secondly, the
Speaker 3: mass Causilty Commission sort of glosses over this. When it
Speaker 3: was all done, I went back to my original sources
Speaker 3: and said one of the documents that was never discussed,
Speaker 3: never released by the mass Casulty Commission was the release
Speaker 3: form that Workman has seen shown signing on the video
Speaker 3: in the cage at the BRINKX operation in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.
Speaker 3: And I asked my source who authorized the release of
Speaker 3: the money, and my source on that document it says
Speaker 3: the RCMP New Brunswick. That is never never, that was
Speaker 3: completely ignored by the Mass Casualty Commission. But it makes
Speaker 3: the case, like I said, that he was a confidential
Speaker 3: informant and none of that stuff should be there if
Speaker 3: he wasn't.
Speaker 2: But Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 2: One thing that people don't know is and then you
Speaker 2: write about, is that sort of the relationship historically between
Speaker 2: the RCNP and the government in terms of protection of
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 3: Well. Absolutely, you know, people in Canada, you know, in
Speaker 3: recent months have shook their head at what's going on
Speaker 3: in the United States and Donald Trump wanting to take
Speaker 3: care of takeover the FBI and politically put his political
Speaker 3: appointees in place, and controlled the justice system and control
Speaker 3: the entire process about how police the justice system work.
Speaker 3: And I sort of laughed. I said, well that's the
Speaker 3: way Canada is now. Canada has been like that since
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four. Because in nineteen eighty four there was
Speaker 3: a public inquiry the McDonald Commission, which essentially I've always
Speaker 3: argued was sort of set up under false pretenses, and
Speaker 3: examined the RCMP, recommended changes in the RCMP that were
Speaker 3: not entirely necessary, and then made the commissioner recommended and
Speaker 3: the government immediately adopted this recommendation that the Commissioner of
Speaker 3: the RCMP be a deputy minister in the government, which
Speaker 3: made the Commissioner of the RCMP serve at the pleasure
Speaker 3: of the Prime Minister. And this political fluence began sort
Speaker 3: of the rot inside to the RCNP and what it's
Speaker 3: become today. So if you look over the last since
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four, the number of high profile Canadian business
Speaker 3: people or politicians who have been charged with a criminal
Speaker 3: offense is almost is minuscule, almost zero, I mean high flying,
Speaker 3: you know, powerful establishment businessman Conrad Black committed crimes in Canada,
Speaker 3: was charged and convicted in the United States, served time
Speaker 3: in the United States, and then sucked up to Donald
Speaker 3: Trump and was pardoned by Donald Trump. But in Canada
Speaker 3: nothing got done. And that was typical of how it
Speaker 3: works across the country. That the RCMP was essentially neutered
Speaker 3: and politically controlled by the government.
Speaker 2: Back to this Mass Casualty Commission. Many of these you
Speaker 2: write about that no one was ross examined per se.
Speaker 2: They testified, but because they didn't want to further apparently
Speaker 2: further the trauma of the officers, or of the victim's
Speaker 2: family or the witnesses. But there was a process that
Speaker 2: really did not look like cross examination at all.
Speaker 3: No, there was no cross examination. Lawyers who represented some
Speaker 3: of the families and other groups. They had all kinds
Speaker 3: of groups they are muddying the waters, who had nothing
Speaker 3: to do with the case itself. The lawyers had to
Speaker 3: vet their questions with the commission and were given ground
Speaker 3: rules on the questions they could ask. For example, Lisa
Speaker 3: Banfield could not be cross examined because she was too fragile.
Speaker 3: RCMP members who were on the scene could not be
Speaker 3: cross examined because they were too fragile. It went on
Speaker 3: and on and on. And one of the things that
Speaker 3: one of the strategies used by the RCMP from the beginning,
Speaker 3: which was the inquiry went along with, is that no
Speaker 3: serious criminal charges were laid against anyone. There was no
Speaker 3: serious criminal investigation that in that way they could protect
Speaker 3: all the information. The RCMP destroyed information early on. I
Speaker 3: got the memo. We demonstrated to them that we could
Speaker 3: penetrate their walls. I got the memorandum saying there's a
Speaker 3: moratorium on the destruction of evidence of the Gabriel Workman
Speaker 3: case three months after the massacres. Four months after the massacres. Well,
Speaker 3: the case is still being investigated and the mass CASI
Speaker 3: the commission didn't even address that what was being destroyed
Speaker 3: and why.
Speaker 2: One very important aspect of this mass casualty the mission
Speaker 2: was the supposed investigation of what happened to Corey Ellison.
Speaker 2: Originally in this commission it was deduced that he was
Speaker 2: shot by Gabriel Wartman. What did you find in this regard?
Speaker 3: This is a key story and one of the things
Speaker 3: I think the RCMP covered up, desperate to cover up,
Speaker 3: and it explains a lot of their behavior the next morning,
Speaker 3: about sending people away, leaving the bodies outside after Clinton Ellison,
Speaker 3: Corey Ellison's brother came out of the woods. A couple
Speaker 3: of days later. He gave an emotional interview on TV
Speaker 3: where he said, I think the Mounties shot my brother
Speaker 3: and people dismissed that he was very emotional. He had
Speaker 3: some issues. Later he would can and say, oh, I
Speaker 3: apologize to the mountings after the mountains put pressure on
Speaker 3: him and talk to him, but he kept returning to it,
Speaker 3: and the media dismissed him. When I got involved in
Speaker 3: in looking at the case, like analyzing what happened in
Speaker 3: every aspect of the case, and dan a line about this,
Speaker 3: one of my citizen investigators, Ryan Potter, put it this way.
Speaker 3: Imagine this entire event before it happened, while it happened,
Speaker 3: and after it happened as a long train ride with
Speaker 3: stations along the way, and at every station the train stops,
Speaker 3: there's a terrible mess. Nothing is right, everything is upside down,
Speaker 3: things are missing. Well, when I looked at the original
Speaker 3: story of the RCMP narrative, they said workman left by
Speaker 3: the blueberry Field road that they didn't know about, and
Speaker 3: then they did. They sort of manipulated evidence to prove
Speaker 3: that he did that. And you know, it's too long
Speaker 3: to get into now, but what I show is that
Speaker 3: didn't happen. He did not go through the blueberry Field
Speaker 3: and they had the evidence, but they suppressed it. Why
Speaker 3: is that important? Well, at the end, I show how
Speaker 3: Leon Jodrey basically comes back from the dead, but his
Speaker 3: phone records of Dean Dillman, another guy who was calling
Speaker 3: Leon Jodry, and Dean Dillman was in a position he
Speaker 3: worked for the government in natural resources as a forester
Speaker 3: as well. He was at the scene that night, and
Speaker 3: he was in a position that made it impossible for
Speaker 3: Gabriel Wartman to get past him. So Gabriel Wortman didn't
Speaker 3: go that way, and that meant that Gabriel Warman went
Speaker 3: past the mount Hees who were manning the road at
Speaker 3: portapeg Beach Road and Highway too. But how this relates
Speaker 3: to Corey Ellison is that in the original narrative they
Speaker 3: said Werbman shot Corey Ellison to escaped through the blueberry
Speaker 3: field at ten forty five. They speculated this that was
Speaker 3: their story before Dean Dillman came forward with records which
Speaker 3: proved he was there at ten thirty eight to ten
Speaker 3: fifty eight. The Wortman didn't go that way. The problem
Speaker 3: is evidence came forward later from Corey Ellison's phone showing
Speaker 3: he'd been shot at ten forty twelve. So if you
Speaker 3: stitch everything together, it appears to me that Wortman was
Speaker 3: not in that area at that time, and the likely
Speaker 3: had already left the seat by the road and OURCNP officers.
Speaker 3: Another odd thing. The first three nine one one calls
Speaker 3: came from Orchard Beach Drive, desperate calls. Jamie Blair was
Speaker 3: shot in the middle of hers the mount. He said
Speaker 3: they did not go to that street till ten forty nine,
Speaker 3: although they got there at ten twenty six. I've never
Speaker 3: seen a nine to one one call where the police
Speaker 3: did not go to the nine one one site. Cory
Speaker 3: Ellison was killed across the street from where Lisa McCully,
Speaker 3: one of Worman's girlfriends, was killed. I think they accidentally
Speaker 3: shot him. And then there's three things that basically prove
Speaker 3: or suggests that's true. On the first press conference held
Speaker 3: by the RCMP and after the massacres, the Chief Superintendent,
Speaker 3: Chris Leather said three referrals were going to be made
Speaker 3: to the Police Watchdog Oversight Committee SERT to investigate the
Speaker 3: shooting of Workman, the shoot up of the Oslo Belmont
Speaker 3: fire hall, and an exchange of gunfire between the gunman
Speaker 3: and RCNP officers last night. Then afterwards that disappears from
Speaker 3: the public record. Wow In an early statement by to
Speaker 3: the police that was left on the public record, Banfield,
Speaker 3: who was hiding supposedly hiding in the woods in that area,
Speaker 3: says I heard someone say how's it going, boys, and
Speaker 3: then bang bang bang bang bang. The other factor is
Speaker 3: that the autopsy report on Corey Ellison was briefly, almost
Speaker 3: accidentally released by the Mass Casualty Commission and then pulled back,
Speaker 3: but not before my citizen investigator, Ryan Potter, got a
Speaker 3: copy of it, and it showed that the Corey Ellison
Speaker 3: was shot five times. All Workman's victims were shot once
Speaker 3: or twice, except for I think Greg Blair was shot
Speaker 3: a couple of times on the porch of his house.
Speaker 3: The way Ellison was shot suggests there was a police shooting.
Speaker 3: By the volume of shots, Workman killed almost everyone with
Speaker 3: a head shot, usually one shot. He was like a marksman.
Speaker 3: Corey Ellison was shot multiple times. And the final twist
Speaker 3: on this dan a few weeks ago after the book
Speaker 3: was published, I got contacted by someone who said, I
Speaker 3: want to talk to you about what happened that night
Speaker 3: five years ago. My cousin was one of the Mounties
Speaker 3: there that night my other cousin and I think our
Speaker 3: cousin shot Corey Ellison And I said, well, I sort
Speaker 3: of make that case without naming him. I said, I
Speaker 3: had a choice with this bounty in that mounty, and
Speaker 3: he was this mounting.
Speaker 2: What happens with Leon Jodrey. He is not treated well
Speaker 2: by the police. He doesn't believe he's treated well. He's dismissed,
Speaker 2: his account is dismissed. What happens, unfortunately to Leon Jodrey, he.
Speaker 3: Sort of slides into a depression. He was with the
Speaker 3: Blairs the night before they were murdered. He was friends
Speaker 3: with the Galensis. The neighbors on either side of him
Speaker 3: were basically were murdered. Lisa McCully was his old girlfriend.
Speaker 3: He tried to warn her about being near Workman, but
Speaker 3: she was fascinated by Wortman. He went into a depression.
Speaker 3: The RCMP didn't believe him, the media didn't believe him.
Speaker 3: I believed him, and others believed him, and eventually at
Speaker 3: Christmas twenty twenty he tried to live in the woods.
Speaker 3: I think Christmas twenty twenty one, tried to live in
Speaker 3: the bush and almost froze to death. His mental health deteriorated.
Speaker 3: One night, he was going to move to a motel.
Speaker 3: He stopped to talk to a mountain who was parked there,
Speaker 3: asking for directions. One thing led to another. He was
Speaker 3: arrested because he was bringing his guns to the motel.
Speaker 3: He had them in the back of his truck. There's
Speaker 3: an obscure law that you can't transport guns in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night. And he was put in immediately
Speaker 3: put into a mental facility, mental health facility, drugged, his
Speaker 3: health deteriorated, and in the middle of doing our pod
Speaker 3: cast one night, I got a call and he had
Speaker 3: committed suicide. Terrible thing. I dedicated this book partly to
Speaker 3: his memory because he always stood by his story and
Speaker 3: I believed his story.
Speaker 2: Let's jes this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages. Now, let's get back to the Mass Casualty Commission.
Speaker 2: And finally Lisa Banfield appears. Tell us who questions her
Speaker 2: and the type of questioning and is that questioning limited
Speaker 2: in any way?
Speaker 3: The lawyer they got to question Lisa band The lawyer
Speaker 3: they got to question. Lisa Banfield was basically hired to
Speaker 3: work for the commission. She was brought into the background
Speaker 3: in women's rights and victimology basically and sort of went
Speaker 3: soft pedaled the whole thing. Never asked her any tough questions.
Speaker 3: It was just never got into any of her story,
Speaker 3: just accepted everything that went along, and then the lawyers
Speaker 3: of the families were not allowed to ask any tough questions.
Speaker 2: What was new, if anything, from what she had originally
Speaker 2: told police to what was she officially said at this mission.
Speaker 3: Frankly, Dan, I don't think I don't see anything new
Speaker 3: that she said that that was relevant. I mean, the
Speaker 3: thing that stood out to me that was new was
Speaker 3: she she wasn't sure of what her injuries were other
Speaker 3: than her back hurt a bit. I remember she was told.
Speaker 3: The original story from the RCMP after some time is
Speaker 3: that she had spinal injuries and cracked vertebrae and all
Speaker 3: kinds of things like this, and she was a very difficult.
Speaker 3: She's almost on life support according to them and witnesses
Speaker 3: I talked to it said she was fine, that she
Speaker 3: didn't appear to have anything wrong, and there were statements
Speaker 3: to that effect in the RCNP record and nine or
Speaker 3: ten Dee she got off the she got out of
Speaker 3: after she got out of the hospital so called got
Speaker 3: out of the hospital. One of my sources found her shopping,
Speaker 3: one of her She was shopping and looked perfectly fine.
Speaker 3: There was nothing to appear to be wrong with her
Speaker 3: mentally or physically. So I knew this. And you know
Speaker 3: all kinds of women's right people where they're defending her
Speaker 3: and calling her a hero. But I think Rob Pineo,
Speaker 3: the lawyer for one of the families, there's all these
Speaker 3: pictures of her crying and stuff, and Rob Pineo Riley
Speaker 3: put it to me. I says, what did you think
Speaker 3: of Banfield's testimony? And Pineo says, she cried with her
Speaker 3: mouth and I thought that's something. I mean, that's what
Speaker 3: I thought.
Speaker 2: You write about a photographer, Crowchack and the one photo
Speaker 2: that captured Wartman's final moments. And then we get into
Speaker 2: I want you to discuss this very controversial killing of
Speaker 2: Gabriel Whartman, apparently at this Big Stop gas station. Tell
Speaker 2: us what you believe happened and what the official narrative
Speaker 2: of what happened.
Speaker 3: Well, the official narrative is that Wortman, this wiley guy,
Speaker 3: made his way to the Irving Big Stop, which is
Speaker 3: a big service center restaurants and you know, multiple pumps
Speaker 3: and trucks, trucks and everything just north of Halifax International Airport,
Speaker 3: and that he went there and two policemen, two Mounties,
Speaker 3: who were just happened to be in the area. We're
Speaker 3: going to fill up their truck which was half full already,
Speaker 3: and fill up their truck and they're suburban and they
Speaker 3: got out there filling it up, and they recognized the
Speaker 3: guy at the next pump, who is Werbman, who is
Speaker 3: driving a car he stole from his twenty second victim,
Speaker 3: Lisa Glay, And they noticed him and he had a
Speaker 3: welt on his head, which becomes an important part of
Speaker 3: the story. And they one thing led to another and
Speaker 3: they engaged him and they shot him. And that's the
Speaker 3: story they stuck to. The police watchdog reviewed the evidence
Speaker 3: and he and said, that's the story. We're sticking to
Speaker 3: that story. But as I said, one of the things
Speaker 3: we did was penetrate all the police operations, the MCC operations,
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice operations and got things. And one
Speaker 3: of the things we got were the videos showing what
Speaker 3: actually happened, and we got other videos showing that the
Speaker 3: thing they described the first part of it happened at
Speaker 3: another gas station that they tried to cover up, and
Speaker 3: then they fused it altogether to make it look like
Speaker 3: this all happened, you know, the story at the story
Speaker 3: that happened at the Petro Can station actually happened at
Speaker 3: the Big Stop. And what happened at the Big Stop
Speaker 3: was the videos clearly show the two bounties coming in
Speaker 3: at high speed, pulling up, pulling upside the pump, and
Speaker 3: from the time their car lurches for religious to a
Speaker 3: stop and starts to come back, from that time to
Speaker 3: the time the door is opened, the copp is standing outside,
Speaker 3: the drivers standing outside, and the passengers come around five
Speaker 3: and a half seconds from the time the car stops
Speaker 3: to the time the first bullets of like twenty five
Speaker 3: are fired into workmen. So they appeared to know it
Speaker 3: was him. They there was no sort of discussion or
Speaker 3: anything like that, no recognition possible. They just came out
Speaker 3: and executed him. And part of the cover up was
Speaker 3: that the federal government the day we we finally you
Speaker 3: went to court and Frank magazine went to court and
Speaker 3: forced these things to come out before the media even
Speaker 3: started to cover it. The federal government, our stories began
Speaker 3: to circulate about commissioner of vi RCNP had politically interfered
Speaker 3: in the case over gun rights and guns and things
Speaker 3: like this, and it all blew up and she lost
Speaker 3: her job and Pete Pele forgot this part of the story.
Speaker 3: One last thing dan on it. When the mcc examined
Speaker 3: these five and a half seconds during the test of the
Speaker 3: public testimony, it took them probably two hours to do
Speaker 3: the five and a half seconds because they went frame
Speaker 3: by frame to make it look like it took a
Speaker 3: longer time. And finally, even then when we fought to
Speaker 3: get all the tapes in the videos, they left some
Speaker 3: of it out and some of it was edited and truncated.
Speaker 2: Wow, you mentioned Brenda Lucky and the government's response at
Speaker 2: this mass Casualty Commission and the excuse for the government
Speaker 2: to enact stronger laws regarding law abiding gun owners.
Speaker 3: That's right. It became a big issue because the government
Speaker 3: of Justin Trudeau, who was Prime minister then after the massacres,
Speaker 3: immediately seized on the massacres to implement a ban on
Speaker 3: probably more than one hundred and fifty different kinds of
Speaker 3: guns and then sort of made even stricter bans in
Speaker 3: the next couple of years. But all the guns that
Speaker 3: Workman used were smuggled across the border and came from
Speaker 3: the United States, which is the biggest problem in Canada. Sure,
Speaker 3: Donald Trump talks about fentanyl going into the States, the
Speaker 3: biggest issue is guns coming into Canada and Mexico from
Speaker 3: the United States. That's the big social issue right now
Speaker 3: in Canada.
Speaker 2: You're right about the huge source of critical evidence that
Speaker 2: you got from a police source called True Blue. Can
Speaker 2: you tell us about this contact with this source and
Speaker 2: what it sparked.
Speaker 3: Well, as I said, we had to demonstrate that we
Speaker 3: could get pierced the walls and get out things that
Speaker 3: they wanted hidden, just to spook them and sort of
Speaker 3: make them honest. At the second anniversary, when it was
Speaker 3: clear they were hiding things, I put out an appeal.
Speaker 3: It was the first anniversary. I put out an appeal
Speaker 3: saying I needed a great there's all this stuff being hidden.
Speaker 3: I know it's being hidden. I've found some of it.
Speaker 3: I found all kinds of things. The audio tape that
Speaker 3: was on an analog system that covered part of the
Speaker 3: night of April eighteen showed the police story. The police
Speaker 3: were lying and I said, I need a great Canadian
Speaker 3: to step forward and provide us with things like nine
Speaker 3: one tapes video. I wanted proof of death of Wortmen.
Speaker 3: I wanted to see how he died because I didn't
Speaker 3: believe their story. And as source emerged, we called true Blue.
Speaker 3: My wife named True Blue, provided us with nine one
Speaker 3: tapes showing that petrated to the RCMP an official government
Speaker 3: story that the police didn't know which Gabriel Wortman dressed
Speaker 3: as a cop until the next morning, and when Lisa
Speaker 3: Banfield came out of the woods, the first three nine
Speaker 3: one one caller said it was Gabriel Wartman dressed as
Speaker 3: a cop who was killing people. And then True Blue
Speaker 3: also provided the videotapes that showed the lie they told
Speaker 3: about the Edfield big stop and the fact that they'd
Speaker 3: already encountered Wortman about ten minutes earlier at another gas station.
Speaker 3: And that was really helped turn the public tide because
Speaker 3: I could demonstrate that people that the RCMP was lying
Speaker 3: because I knew it was a cover up. Even though
Speaker 3: people were in your conspiracy theory, I could theorist, I
Speaker 3: could see the cover up, and I knew from my
Speaker 3: experience how to penetrate and reveal it. You know, there's
Speaker 3: a thing that the concept of negative proof, you know,
Speaker 3: and negative proof is if you can prove in the
Speaker 3: absence of evidence you can't get and reluctance of people
Speaker 3: to cooperate. If you could prove their narrative is not true,
Speaker 3: that means there's another truth. And so we can infer
Speaker 3: from those things that you know on the Blueberry field,
Speaker 3: I could prove it's not true. Therefore the other proof
Speaker 3: is the other truth is who killed Corey Ellison? The
Speaker 3: same with the irving big stop. What really happened?
Speaker 2: It?
Speaker 3: Was he executed or was it No? The RCNP said, oh,
Speaker 3: we stumbled upon him, we didn't know he was there.
Speaker 3: I can prove that's not true. So that looks like
Speaker 3: he was executed. So you have to ask why was
Speaker 3: he execut Was it just because he killed all the people,
Speaker 3: or what was the genesis for the problem he had
Speaker 3: with the RCMP. Was he trying to make the RCMP ashamed?
Speaker 3: Was he trying to harm them? And I think that's
Speaker 3: what he was doing. And there's one other big sort
Speaker 3: of truth we destroy. One bit narrative we destroy in
Speaker 3: the book is the killing of Constable Heidie Stephenson, and
Speaker 3: we can't ignore that that's a big story.
Speaker 2: Well, tell us about that story, because that's a one
Speaker 2: of the most vivid scenes is this Gabriel Wartman in
Speaker 2: a replica car with a police uniform with the appropriate
Speaker 2: the cows on that car enough to fool at RCNP officer.
Speaker 2: So tell us about Heidie Stephenson's.
Speaker 3: Heidi Stevenson was a constable approaching fifty years old who
Speaker 3: spent most of her career on the RCMP Musical Ride,
Speaker 3: which is a horse show that goes to sort of
Speaker 3: circuses and arenas during the summer. She was a school
Speaker 3: liaison officer public relations officer, but for some reason now
Speaker 3: she was back on patrol on this Sunday and she
Speaker 3: ended up the RCMP, as I said, was not getting
Speaker 3: in front of workman, almost as if they were allowing
Speaker 3: him to come towards Halifax. And Heidi Stevenson assigned one
Speaker 3: of her people from the Enfield unit to go on
Speaker 3: Highway too, not the expressway where all the mountains were gathered,
Speaker 3: but on Highway too, and he was alone on Highway too.
Speaker 3: Then she realized, oh, I should go over and help him,
Speaker 3: and Werdman came down the road down Highway too, knew
Speaker 3: where Morrison was, turned in there, shot him or shot
Speaker 3: at him, wounded him, but Morrison drove off, ran turned
Speaker 3: around and drove after him, and as they were coming
Speaker 3: to what is called the Cloverleaf Loop, Stevenson came in
Speaker 3: and drove under the bridge as Morrison took the exit
Speaker 3: to go down Highway to didn't see her. Mister by
Speaker 3: second she came around the clover relief workman was driving
Speaker 3: straight on another section of the road. Sara coming ramder
Speaker 3: spun her around. The RCNP story eventually becomes that Heidi
Speaker 3: Stevenson first rammed Wortman, then they changed that. Then she
Speaker 3: was in a gunfight with Wortman and fired fourteen rounds
Speaker 3: at him, twelve from outside the car, two from inside
Speaker 3: the car before Wortman killed her. The problem with that
Speaker 3: story was, well, first of all, all the media and
Speaker 3: everyone jumped on that Heidi Stevenson was a hero. But
Speaker 3: the problem with the story is the evidence didn't fit
Speaker 3: that story. So I went over all the evidence and
Speaker 3: you know, as I lay out in detail on the book,
Speaker 3: I had written that those chapters, there's two chapters I
Speaker 3: had written them and in the right and I had
Speaker 3: concluded that this was a made up story. They needed
Speaker 3: a heroin. They unified behind her, they wanted the story
Speaker 3: to work. And I was doing some last minute double
Speaker 3: checking through all the records, in all the documents, and
Speaker 3: then I found a document was like the smoking gun,
Speaker 3: and what it showed was that three days after the
Speaker 3: Heidi Stevenson was murdered, the head of curt the police watchdog,
Speaker 3: the interim head Patrick Kerran, a former chief justice the
Speaker 3: Nova Scotia Provincial and Family Courts, had rejected a request
Speaker 3: from the RCMP to investigate whether Heidi Stevenson had accidentally
Speaker 3: shot a good Samaritan bystander Joey Webber, who was the
Speaker 3: twenty first victim in the massacres, and that she should
Speaker 3: be investigated for that even though she was dead. And Kerrent,
Speaker 3: in a document which I largely include in the books,
Speaker 3: basically tells him to hit the road and says, in
Speaker 3: the most remarkable institutional institution no missive you've ever seen.
Speaker 3: That you already told us on Sunday as you investigated it.
Speaker 3: She was executed. All the evidence showed she was executed.
Speaker 3: Kerran said, I'm not going to try to prove get
Speaker 3: involved in this because essentially he could see what they
Speaker 3: were trying to do. They're trying to get an investigation
Speaker 3: by the police watchdog to justify that the shooting had
Speaker 3: actually taken place. But this raised there was no evidence
Speaker 3: that there were twenty seven witnesses to what had happened
Speaker 3: and earwitnesses an eyewitnesses, only two had heard thirty rounds
Speaker 3: being fired, most heard seven to nine. When I investigated
Speaker 3: the thirty round story, they reduced it to much less
Speaker 3: than that. And then where they lived and saw or
Speaker 3: heard what they saw or heard could be attributed to
Speaker 3: echoes because he was using a ruger, a mini ruger,
Speaker 3: and it's a very loud gun, and no one close
Speaker 3: to the scene saw it. And then I finally found
Speaker 3: the evidence of one witness who followed Wortman. I remember
Speaker 3: I said Morrison got shot and drove a Morris and
Speaker 3: then Wortman followed him, while another guy, Bernard Meira, and
Speaker 3: his wife followed Wortman. He stopped at that scene, turned
Speaker 3: off his engine and watched what happened, Wortman crashing into
Speaker 3: the Stevenson's car, getting out, shooting her through the back
Speaker 3: side the back passenger window. All that her never getting
Speaker 3: out of the car, and that match what everyone else said,
Speaker 3: and that was ignored. So what it does raise is
Speaker 3: where did the shellcasings come from? Where they planted? And
Speaker 3: if they planted that, what else did they plant.
Speaker 2: Let's jes this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: One thing that we haven't spoke about was Lisa Banfield
Speaker 2: at this mass Casualty commission, But there are criminal charges
Speaker 2: against her and her relatives that are at the same
Speaker 2: time as this commission and then later are dealt with
Speaker 2: shortly after. Briefly just explain those charges.
Speaker 3: Well, what I told you early on earlier was that
Speaker 3: the RCMP didn't want anyone charged, and it looked like
Speaker 3: in the fall of twenty twenty that Lisa Banfield was
Speaker 3: being protected. And at the time I talked about me
Speaker 3: going to work for Frank magazine to write about Lisa Bainfield,
Speaker 3: it was clear that the article I was going to
Speaker 3: write about Lisa Banfield was coming out on Monday, showing
Speaker 3: that she was protected, et cetera, et cetera. On the
Speaker 3: Friday afternoon, the RCMP announced charges that Lisa Banfield, her
Speaker 3: brother and her brother in law were being charged with
Speaker 3: providing ammunition to workman that he used in the massacres,
Speaker 3: and the media went crazy, and at the time I
Speaker 3: rewrote my article to point out these are likely bogus
Speaker 3: charges that will never have their day in court and
Speaker 3: will only be used to stall any discussion about Lisa
Speaker 3: Banfield because she faces criminal charges. And basically that went
Speaker 3: on for two years. She couldn't speak because she faced
Speaker 3: criminal charges. Then she went before the mass Casualty Commission.
Speaker 3: They treated her with kid gloves, and then she wasn't
Speaker 3: asked about any of this. It's a misdemeanor anyways. It
Speaker 3: was like a traffic teck. And as soon as the
Speaker 3: mass Casualty Commission was finished with her, she made an
Speaker 3: appearance before a judge in a restorative justice setting. Well,
Speaker 3: who was the victim? Nobody was there, and the charges
Speaker 3: against her and her brothers were dismissed. It was clearly
Speaker 3: what I said it was from the beginning.
Speaker 2: Let's get to this eventual outcome of this commission. I'd
Speaker 2: like to know tell us the public response, the mainstream
Speaker 2: media's response, and more importantly, the victim's famili's response.
Speaker 3: The media treated it like it was the real thing.
Speaker 3: Most of the media, although most of them couldn't understand
Speaker 3: what was going on because the thing was so disjointed
Speaker 3: and boring and deliberately dull and boring and uninformative and
Speaker 3: sensationalized what it needed to be that it was like
Speaker 3: a circus. It didn't make sense. The families were outraged.
Speaker 3: Of the families thought it was a schmazzle. The lawyers
Speaker 3: thought it was a cover up, but nobody would talk
Speaker 3: on the record about that because all the families were
Speaker 3: forced to sign non disclosure agreements with the government to
Speaker 3: get funding for the to appear at the MCC. They
Speaker 3: also have legal cases that had non disclosure agreements with
Speaker 3: their law firms not to disco to discuss anything, especially
Speaker 3: with someone like me. Some people, you know, the domestic
Speaker 3: violence people hailed it as a great moment forward, but
Speaker 3: nothing much has ever happened since then. They set up
Speaker 3: implementation committees to hide behind that go on for three
Speaker 3: years now overseeing the implementation of the one hundred and
Speaker 3: thirty recommendations. But all that she's being used as as
Speaker 3: a shield so the politicians don't talk about it. Politicians
Speaker 3: in the five years since this outrageous event. Not one
Speaker 3: politician has stood on their hind feet and criticized the
Speaker 3: RCMP or the process or anything. So it's been left
Speaker 3: up to me, citizen investigators and the people who've been
Speaker 3: involved to try to get hold the RCNP and the
Speaker 3: governments accountable. And that's what we did in this book.
Speaker 2: What was the response to your previous book about these
Speaker 2: massacres twenty two murders?
Speaker 3: Well, I was number one bestseller in Canada and continues
Speaker 3: three years later to be selling very very well. The
Speaker 3: Random House told me about a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 3: the meeting we had in Toronto, that they figured it'll
Speaker 3: be one of those historical legacy books that people will
Speaker 3: just buy forever. The other thing Dan about this is
Speaker 3: you rarely, as an author, get the opportunity to take
Speaker 3: two kicks at the can at one story and this one.
Speaker 3: You know, I designed to be at least two books,
Speaker 3: you know, by asking the question what's the big secret?
Speaker 3: And the second book is trying to answer that, And
Speaker 3: now I'm at the at the point where I may
Speaker 3: have to write a third books. The lingering question now
Speaker 3: is who killed Corey Ellison? And that is sort of
Speaker 3: the heart gets to the heart of what the cover
Speaker 3: up is about, you know, because they had a lot
Speaker 3: at stake. They had to cover up Workman's connections to them,
Speaker 3: all the mishaps and the mistakes they made, like Corey Ellison,
Speaker 3: they covered up and they tried to shape a narrative
Speaker 3: that the main street media bought. Much of what happens
Speaker 3: you know in our world today, fake stories, telling the
Speaker 3: story knowing that no one's going to challenge them. They
Speaker 3: didn't expect I would be there. You know, there's a
Speaker 3: great line from George Orwell who says, I just copied
Speaker 3: it here. Orwell's line about the truth. The further society
Speaker 3: drifts from the truth, the more will hate those who
Speaker 3: speak it. So I got a lot of people disliking
Speaker 3: me because I'm trying to speak it. But I've got
Speaker 3: an enormous number of people who've come on side. I
Speaker 3: had a book launch event three nights ago in Halifax
Speaker 3: that was spectacular, went on for three hours. I brought
Speaker 3: up people who were ignored as witnesses who told their stories.
Speaker 3: It was very moving, and I know people can listen
Speaker 3: to my podcast Dispersing the Fog to hear part of that.
Speaker 3: What we did. It's a similar thing. But my podcast partner,
Speaker 3: lawyer Adam Rodgers, and I discussed the elements of the
Speaker 3: book because I did the audio book as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I want to just mention in closing, just the
Speaker 2: victims of this porta Peak massacre. Thirteen died initially nine
Speaker 2: the next day Greg Blair, Jamie Blair, Lisa McCully, Corey Ellison,
Speaker 2: Frank Gulichin, Don Madson, Gulichin, John Zall, Elizabeth Thomas, Peter Bond,
Speaker 2: Aaron Tuck, Jolene Oliver, and Emily Tuck. And then the
Speaker 2: next day Sean McLeod, Alana Jenkins, Tom Bought Bagley, Lillian Campbell, Icelop,
Speaker 2: Heather O'Brien, Christine Beaton, Heidi Stevenson, Joey Weber, and Gina Gouley.
Speaker 3: And that's what one last point, there's an absolutely At
Speaker 3: my book launch, people were in tears when I over
Speaker 3: the Heather O'Brien story where she was shot by Whartman.
Speaker 3: She was like, I think the sixteenth, seventeenth victim, probably
Speaker 3: eighteenth victimy, I don't, I can't know nineteenth victim. I
Speaker 3: think she was shot by Wartman. When the RCMP arrived,
Speaker 3: they put a blanket over her, declared her dead, and
Speaker 3: the family knew she wasn't dead. She had a fitbit
Speaker 3: on and showed her heart was beating for eight hours. Incredible,
Speaker 3: Or she died and the RCMP would not allow a
Speaker 3: metavac helicopter to come in, wouldn't her family to come
Speaker 3: by her side, and then the mass casually can mission
Speaker 3: hid all the fitted evidence and would not allow it
Speaker 3: into testimony, and the family only released it afterwards. And
Speaker 3: I tell that story.
Speaker 2: This commission portrayed the many of these RCMP, these mounties
Speaker 2: as brave and then afterwards traumatized. But your investigation, your
Speaker 2: books tell a much different story.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, after the massacres, they did nothing, never
Speaker 3: got in front of anyone, never confronted anyone. But that
Speaker 3: summer seventy mounties took the summer off because they were stressed.
Speaker 3: That says more about the RCMP than anything else.
Speaker 2: Incredible. I want to thank you very much, Paul Plango
Speaker 2: for coming on and talking about your incredible anatomy of
Speaker 2: a cover up, the truth about the RCMP and the
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia massacres. For those people that want to check
Speaker 2: look Out twenty two murders, your other books other than
Speaker 2: twenty two Murders and this book Anatomy of a Cover Up?
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about a website or any social
Speaker 2: media you do?
Speaker 3: No, all I'm doing is right now, I don't do
Speaker 3: social media. We do are Dispersing the Fog, which is
Speaker 3: my third book on the Mounties from two thousand and eight,
Speaker 3: very difficult to get nowadays. My books are about of
Speaker 3: circulation above the law, the Last Guardians, but Dispersing the
Speaker 3: Fog sort of set the tone for what I'm doing now.
Speaker 3: All I do is the Dispersing the Fog podcast. We're
Speaker 3: on podcast number sixteen now and we discuss this book
Speaker 3: now and legal things that are going on in Canada,
Speaker 3: the United States and around the world with my podcast
Speaker 3: partner Adam Rodgers, which is on Sunday nights at seven
Speaker 3: thirty Eastern eight thirty Atlantic on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Sounds good, fantastic. Thank you so much for Anatomy of
Speaker 2: a cover Up, the Truth about the RCNP and the
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia massacres. Thank you so much for this interview,
Speaker 2: and you have a great evening, and good night
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan, thank you, good night.