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True Murder with your host, 37 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.400 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 38 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.640 Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupansky for the 39 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.840 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime 40 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.280 History and the authors that have written about them. The 41 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:01.079 behavior and activities exhibited by offenders the distinguished lust murderers 42 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.640 from among other types of serial murders are presented through 43 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:09.919 a multiple case studies analysis of the offenders, psychosocial histories, 44 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:16.000 and offense patrons. The lust murderers examined include Theodore Bundy, 45 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:21.120 Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dennis Rader BTK. The study advocates that 46 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:24.360 a primary function of the development of typologies is to 47 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.400 provide aid and assistance in the investigation of violent crime, 48 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:34.000 specifically violent sexualized homicides. The book that we're featuring this 49 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:40.319 evening is Eradophonophilia Investigating Lust Murder with My special guest 50 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:46.599 author and doctor Janet McClellan. Welcome to the program, and 51 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:49.479 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Doctor Janet McClellan. 52 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:54.240 It's my pleasure, Dan, thank you, thank you very much. 53 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:59.560 Very very very interesting book and very very fascinating subjects, 54 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:05.319 equally fascinating interview. I anticipate now give us a little 55 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.039 bit of just your background. I alluded to it and 56 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:10.879 even messed it up a little bit. But you're a professor, 57 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.960 and you have a PhD, and you're a doctor. Tell 58 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:17.199 us a little bit about your background before we talk 59 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.360 about this incredible study. 60 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:27.319 Certainly, I spend years as a law enforcement officer investigator. 61 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:33.560 In specific, I was also the executive director of the 62 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:38.759 maximum Security Facility for violent sex offenders in the state 63 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:43.960 of Kansas. Like I said, I spent years in law 64 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:49.520 enforcement as well. And of course, while I was working 65 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:54.560 in both law enforcement and corrections, I was pursuing my 66 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:59.159 various degrees, ending up with, of course, as you noted, 67 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:05.360 the PhD and in criminal justice, and I'm currently the 68 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.840 chair for the master's program in criminal justice with Kaplan University. 69 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.840 Very very impressive. Now you say you started off in 70 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:20.240 law enforcement. This is not typical in terms of you 71 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.480 start where you started, to your starting point and your endpoints. 72 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:27.519 So it's was there a turning point at some point 73 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.720 in your law enforcement career? How did you really go 74 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.399 from the law enforcement all the way to where you 75 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:39.079 are here, which is almost a completely different position. Obviously, 76 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:42.160 it's very different. 77 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:47.480 I began as a law enforcement officer in the city 78 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:52.639 of Leavenworth, Kansas, when I was nineteen, and I was 79 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:56.560 an undercover narcotics investigator for the city of Levenworth. I'm 80 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:01.959 sure that you're familiar with Levenworth through its historical background 81 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:08.720 is having a number of corrections facilities prisons specifically, Yeah, 82 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.240 particularly you know they the famous or infamous uh, Federal 83 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:18.319 Penitentiary Leavenworth. Uh. My father was a deputy warden at 84 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:22.639 Kansas State Penitentiary when it was Kansas State Penitentiary, and 85 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:27.160 of course as it became the corrections facility. So I 86 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:32.399 suppose I came by my uh both my career or 87 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:41.720 both of these careers, uh in criminal justice rather naturally. 88 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:40.319 Yeah. 89 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:43.199 Right. 90 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.360 As a matter of fact, I have to tell you, 91 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.680 as it's been a longstanding uh joke, if you will, 92 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.279 that my father and I had that between us, we 93 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.720 had a small business in regards to criminal justice, since 94 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.399 he was a deputy warden, uh, and I was in 95 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.439 law enforcement. That I would catch them and Dad would 96 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.319 keep them. 97 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.560 Yeah, catching, catching, no release, Yes, gotcha, no. 98 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:15.279 Kids, catching, no release. So anyway, UH So I began 99 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:21.279 UH at that period of time. And quite frankly, the uh, 100 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:26.199 the police chief with whom I worked in Leavenworth, was 101 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:33.560 very strong in his opinions about the necessity of education, 102 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:39.120 particularly higher education for law enforcement officers. And as a 103 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:43.079 result of that particular influence, and I had been pursuing 104 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.839 a bit of college at that time. Anyway, Really, I 105 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:53.199 have to credit him for that, that continuation of interest 106 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.759 in higher education. And I suppose you might say that 107 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.839 after the bachelor's and mass and program, and that I 108 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:06.560 just sort of it seemed a natural trajectory from one 109 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.720 thing to the other used for no other reason than 110 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:16.879 at each point of that academic advancement, the subject matter 111 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:22.560 in which I was engaged was so fascinating and it 112 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:29.399 lent itself so well to oh, not only the sort 113 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:34.560 of organizational processes and environments in the various criminal justice 114 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.600 agencies in which I was working, but because of the 115 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.360 kind of course work that I was doing in criminal investigation, 116 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:50.680 and that lent itself handily to support really the investigations 117 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:51.920 that I was doing in the field. 118 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.560 Right, Yes, so you could really relate to the things 119 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.399 that you were learning, the lessons that you were learning. 120 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:04.800 Absolutely absolutely, And I found my interests within the criminal 121 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:12.759 investigation aspects, but then also such things as investigative process management, 122 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:20.839 good policies, those sorts of issues and applied to so yes, 123 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.079 each step seemed to, you know, work itself together with 124 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:24.639 the last. 125 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:32.000 Now, this, this book examines lust murder. But before you 126 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:37.039 came to this, you obviously had done extensive research, uh 127 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:42.000 just prior to this or prior to this, what what 128 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.759 were you other than lust murder? But I mean you 129 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:51.200 obviously studied serial murder. What was your area of research, say, 130 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.919 prior to this lust murder examiner? 131 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.519 You know, right, that's that's a good question, because actually 132 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:08.240 serial murder, violent sexualized homicide really became the focus of 133 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:14.440 my interests, research, personal readings, as well as directing my 134 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:20.039 course of studies. Gosh. In the actually in the mid 135 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:25.440 nineteen seventies, mid early mid I was a police officer 136 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:31.480 in the state of Washington with the campus police at Ellensburg. 137 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:36.000 I had been hired there, and when I had when 138 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:41.919 I arrived, a young woman who had been a student 139 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:47.000 there by the name of Susan Rancourt had been abducted 140 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:52.840 and slain by that time by an individual whom we 141 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:57.159 did not really know but ultimately turned out to be 142 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:01.720 Ted Bundy. Right, So at that point and I at 143 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.799 that point I had also I rather fit the physical 144 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:08.159 description of the young women that he was killing. So 145 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:13.639 between spending a wee bit of time UH as bait, 146 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:19.120 and then I also had, because of my arrival there, 147 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.240 my interests in some of the early research that I 148 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:29.240 had begun at that time, just in homicide and investigations. 149 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:33.039 I was able to become a member of one of 150 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:39.240 the multi UH agency task forces that were formed UH 151 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:44.360 to UH to investigate UH into those murders, and so 152 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:48.200 I had a great opportunity to work with those folks 153 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:53.159 and and learn a great deal. The FBI came out 154 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.480 and provided a significant amount of training UH to to 155 00:10:57.559 --> 00:10:59.919 those of us that were in some of those UH well, 156 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:06.720 the agency task forces, and so really that my whole 157 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.639 direction in terms of interest was formed quite early on 158 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.519 because of those murders that were taking place. It really 159 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.039 began with the question simply at that point in time 160 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:27.480 was why, why, why are somebody doing this? How what 161 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:29.799 are they doing? Why are they doing it? Why are 162 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:33.519 they doing it in this particular way? What what are 163 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:36.320 we seeing here? And what is what we're seeing? What 164 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:42.399 do those things mean? So really that was the start. 165 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.000 Well, they're by far the most dramatic of the killers 166 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:51.120 is the lust murderers, and obviously they're obviously leave more 167 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:55.159 questions and answers, especially years ago, and with the work 168 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.120 that you've done, it's it's not that there is a comprehension, 169 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.240 but there's more of a comprehension on the why and 170 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:06.120 where that came from and identifying those characteristics that are 171 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:10.919 shared between these type of killers. What I wanted to 172 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.480 ask you too, is that tell us a little bit 173 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:18.320 for those that don't know that where the conventional wisdom came. 174 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.399 Because what's interesting, I guess in this context is that 175 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:27.279 tomorrow evening I'm going to be interviewing Mark Olshaker, which 176 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.480 is the half of the writing team of John Douglas, 177 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.159 the famous critical profiler. So tell us where the bulk 178 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.399 of the material came, and then we can talk about 179 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:44.480 the previous studies and then the studies that you took 180 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:50.240 off from. Obviously research it evolves, and so tell us 181 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.240 where some of this first information came, and then tell 182 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.799 us about the development of the understanding of less murder. 183 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.279 And then we can maybe introduce how you start guarded 184 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:05.200 and why this book that investigates lust murder. And we're 185 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:08.679 talking about twenty ten, so the most current information. 186 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:18.320 Okay, what I was, what I've been doing, of course 187 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.759 for years, is following the writings and the research of 188 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:29.840 a wide variety of it broad authorship of folks who 189 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:37.480 were researching and writing about essentially lust murder and or 190 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:47.279 serial murder investigation, and some of the earliest writings again 191 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.919 that would take you back into the or the mid 192 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:57.200 to late seventies when it was essentially in its infancy 193 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.759 at the beginning of if you will, when the FBI 194 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.639 had their behavior what they called them, their Behavioral Science Unit, 195 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:11.600 and of course, you know, folks like Douglas and Munn 196 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:21.799 created various tables and analyzes, Keppel and others homes and 197 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:28.000 homes in an attempt to try to look at the data. 198 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.480 And it was it was small data at that point. 199 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:37.120 I think the FBI did is the behavioral analysis documentation 200 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:42.159 on what was on fewer than thirty persons who are 201 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:47.320 identified as serial murder. Of course, there's been a longstanding 202 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:52.879 discussion or argument, if you will, as to in regards 203 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:57.840 to serial murder. It's it's full and complete definition in 204 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:03.399 part is it is it cereal? If it's only two? Uh? 205 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:06.840 Do we wait for four and wait in terms of 206 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:12.679 defining it or identifying it as such by the investigators. 207 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:17.639 And they're various and sundry people that fall within those 208 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:23.919 those arguments. For whatever reason, I rather advocate that TUSA. 209 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.720 Sure uh to call it cereal. 210 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:38.279 UH. The word serial is a more contemporary UH use 211 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:43.080 of that word if you think about cereal as being 212 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:49.279 simply serial murder or serial burglary or serial armed robbery 213 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:54.200 or what we're talking about is a continuation, a successful 214 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:59.000 continuation of a certain type of act. I say successful 215 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:03.679 because the individual is still free uh to continue that 216 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:10.840 activity over time. UH and and place so in looking 217 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.320 at that you know and essentially over in that that 218 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:18.919 growing data and the UH the various ways in which 219 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:25.919 those persons, both academicians and UH and and UH criminologists 220 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:31.679 and other types of of investigators into the issues UH examined. 221 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.120 The question of essentially the one that I had was 222 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.519 what are these people up to? What's going on? Are 223 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:43.240 there means are ways of identifying? You know, the whole 224 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:49.120 purpose in law enforcement is an attempt to protect individuals. 225 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:53.000 So if you can figure out how to more quickly 226 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:59.559 identify the UH an unknown suspect to or identify maybe 227 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:04.920 what might be a cohort of types. Therefore the idea 228 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:09.680 of typology, so that you can narrow your investigation into 229 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:16.720 something of a reasonable and practical UH best benefit side 230 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:21.680 in terms of the identification and capture. Those are really 231 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.839 the kind of key issues in regards to serial murder investigation. 232 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:33.759 Having said that, UH lust murder does not necessarily mean 233 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:39.359 that an individual has committed a series of those types 234 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:45.799 of of murders. You know, that type of murder exists 235 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.160 violent sexualized homicide, which is a sort of the perspective 236 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:52.920 that I that I take on it, UH is a 237 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.920 can be just a one incident. But the way of 238 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:02.680 the best ways perhaps that conducting the investigations all go 239 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:10.319 back to the identifying of the the types of violence 240 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.480 committed against the individual who is the ultimate victim. What 241 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.519 was done and things that occur at a crime scene 242 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:26.400 that might give indication as to the type of individual 243 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:31.240 that committed it and therefore help you work on your investigation. 244 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.720 Now, for those that are listening to what we should 245 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.319 explain a little bit here too. And this is interesting 246 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.640 to me and news to me as well, at least 247 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.160 from what I've read. And again it doesn't come anywhere 248 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.839 near any kind of research like you describe and you undertake. 249 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.119 But what I found interesting was that that what you 250 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:58.720 talk about in your book is that lust murder it 251 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:03.960 involves say it and what people normally talk what I 252 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:05.599 would think too, and I had to wrap my head 253 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.559 around this was that you talk about redefining that as 254 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.720 not only the violence that was perpetrated on this victim 255 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.839 before they were murdered. 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We're prohibited by Law 278 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.880 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 279 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.599 That is that you say, indicate that say the displaying 280 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:30.480 of the body, imposing of the body, necrophilia will say 281 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:36.039 for example, or mutilation are still should be and are defined. 282 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.599 This is what you say, and hopefully I'm not paraphrasing 283 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.880 or getting is wrong that this is part of the 284 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.359 sadism that the offender was trying to inflict on his victim. 285 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.720 And so that's right. 286 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:55.799 Where the individuals who come along and discovered the offense, 287 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:01.319 you know, whether they're civilians or the long firstforcement personnel 288 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:09.160 themselves in that regards, it's a as an attempt to 289 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:17.640 inflict uh psychological harm, uh to shock, to appall. 290 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:18.960 You know. 291 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.519 Yes, so it's this. 292 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.000 And this will this would extend to all the all 293 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.160 the behavior. We'll say, for example, Albert Fish writing a 294 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.599 letter to the victims family and saying how much he 295 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.680 enjoyed the killing and eating their child. 296 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.279 Yes, he would have enjoyed writing the letter. He would 297 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.400 have enjoyed anticipating them reading the letter. 298 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:46.240 Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, so I thought, and so that's 299 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:51.640 a new you you have redefined this or is it this? 300 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.519 This has occurred in the development of the understanding of 301 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:55.160 lust murder. 302 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.480 It's as a result of my my the search that 303 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.200 I did. This is the way in which I have 304 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:08.759 come to define that regarding what occurs in that those 305 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:15.359 purpose fult displays or actions that I think that we 306 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:21.440 can fairly easily define as that which focuses on that 307 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:27.799 individual's desire intent to inflict pain. Yeah, that's based on 308 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.720 the researchs out there, and I I just simply drew 309 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:33.839 that conclusion based on what was being presented. 310 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.200 Right. So, for example, if you were to see a 311 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:41.880 posed body or displayed body, and you were to see 312 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:47.640 some of this post murder offence's offense activity, you would 313 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:54.319 then be able to classify that as information or use 314 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.480 that as information to gather more evidence to create this 315 00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:58.880 profile on this offender. 316 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:06.079 Yeah, well the all of the yes, it's a piece 317 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:11.319 of it. Think of that that a display, just that 318 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.960 the idea that the body is displayed is a piece 319 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.720 of information that essentially that what what one is looking 320 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:25.279 at is a piece of a constellation of artifacts and 321 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:32.359 artifacts that exists a crime scene, and and and and 322 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:38.839 quite frankly, the I have to advocate for what keppel 323 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:43.839 and and and Walter uh It developed is the idea 324 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:49.920 that the last crime scene and a murder situation, the 325 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.359 last crime scene is that the crime scene in which 326 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.839 one finds, locates, and discovers the body. And when I 327 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.880 say that's the last crime scene, uh, Keple and Wall 328 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.960 advocated for and very very clearly wonderfully to find the 329 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:11.319 great and very specific possibility uh that within any criminal 330 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:17.720 event that factly there's five crime scenes easily that that 331 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:21.240 can occur. And by that I mean that the the 332 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:27.200 place where the body uh exists is just the last scene. 333 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.240 It's not the first scene. It is the one of 334 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:34.319 which there is much focus necessarily uh and and correctly, 335 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:41.319 but it's only one scene that that exists within a 336 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:46.799 number of thenes of any bio on crime. So UH, 337 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:50.200 let's say this is where the for example, if an 338 00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:56.400 individual is a victim is uh taken from let's say 339 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.119 a bar downtown. And I'm thinking of particular case that 340 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:04.640 occurred in Kansas City, probably about a decade or two ago. 341 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:10.000 A decade ago, the young woman was taken from near 342 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.240 a bar in the downtown location, transported some twelve to 343 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:21.920 fifteen miles outside of town into a rural area, killed, 344 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:26.119 and her her body set on fire. Okay, so where 345 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.960 the body was found discovered quite frankly as a result 346 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:32.119 of neighbors seeing fire in the field, if you will, 347 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:39.079 that was the last scene. The transportation itself from point 348 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:41.000 from the point of the bar to out to the 349 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.720 field was itself a scene. Therefore, you have a vehicle, 350 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:49.319 a car attract something that transported her. That's a scene, 351 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.319 and you have the acquire the place at which she 352 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.119 was acquired the inner around that bar, which is the 353 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:01.720 scene in and of itself that needs to be examined 354 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.000 and discussed as a part of the investigation. 355 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:14.720 Sure, now with your examination, what I didn't put in 356 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.200 the introduction but is very evident in your book, in 357 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.960 your explanation, is that you took the effectiveness and the 358 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.359 efficiency of the typologies of less murder as researched by 359 00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.920 I'll just name the researchers Goodwin in two thousand, Homes 360 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:34.079 and Homes in two thousand and two, Keppel and Walter 361 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.920 nineteen ninety nine, and Coxus, Cooksey and Irwin in two 362 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.759 thousand and two. And the book is focused or you 363 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.599 do examine the cases of Theodore Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, 364 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:50.119 and BTK Dennis Raider. Tell us what. 365 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:52.880 You I mean. 366 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:55.519 Obviously, there was a wealth of knowledge to be gained 367 00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:00.759 by examining the research that these dedicated researchers did. But 368 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:05.480 what was the main issue that you felt was lacking? Obviously, 369 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:09.160 and and one of the reasons why you undertook this 370 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.039 examination yourself of lust murder. What was missing in your 371 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.720 mind once you went through all the information and from 372 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.119 all your own personal reading sources. 373 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:25.119 My that's a that's a good question, because what these 374 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.880 those four theories are theorists if you will, that have 375 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:38.000 created the typologies of uh uh uh serial murderers. Each 376 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.079 one of them has, if you will, sort of a 377 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:49.559 four type typology for set typology in which characteristics of 378 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:52.359 particular offenders. You can say that one, for example, one 379 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.559 its organized, one is organized, which is the simplest profile, 380 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:02.480 and and and in act. But uh, each one of 381 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:07.519 these very fine researchers, theorists have the typologies, and they're 382 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:12.720 rather competing typologies, if you will. And it was that 383 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:17.200 that competition that was a part of my initial My 384 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.519 question was, you know, is it true that any one 385 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:28.200 of these could better identify, explain uh the psychosocial development, 386 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:33.279 the uh the psychological history, if you will, that we 387 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.160 know of of these three individuals that you just mentioned, 388 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.319 Bundy and C. T. K and Jeffrey Dahmer, could any 389 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:47.599 one of them explain them identify h could they fit better? 390 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:47.960 Right? 391 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.319 And so what I did was sake beaten by way 392 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:56.200 by doing these cases of these three individuals, essentially based 393 00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:59.960 on all the information that we have about them, looked 394 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.799 at how well do they fit in any one of 395 00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:07.559 the types within the typology is one better than the others. 396 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.160 And essentially, for me, the upshot was that after I 397 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:18.400 went through those particular examinations, that wasn't the match matter 398 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:26.079 that any one of those typology sets better did one 399 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:30.039 over the other. But what they did do was to 400 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.759 provide to if you want to put them together, you 401 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:38.559