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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 7: Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupansky for the
Speaker 7: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime
Speaker 7: History and the authors that have written about them. The
Speaker 7: behavior and activities exhibited by offenders the distinguished lust murderers
Speaker 7: from among other types of serial murders are presented through
Speaker 7: a multiple case studies analysis of the offenders, psychosocial histories,
Speaker 7: and offense patrons. The lust murderers examined include Theodore Bundy,
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dennis Rader BTK. The study advocates that
Speaker 7: a primary function of the development of typologies is to
Speaker 7: provide aid and assistance in the investigation of violent crime,
Speaker 7: specifically violent sexualized homicides. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 7: evening is Eradophonophilia Investigating Lust Murder with My special guest
Speaker 7: author and doctor Janet McClellan. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 7: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Doctor Janet McClellan.
Speaker 4: It's my pleasure, Dan, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 7: Very very very interesting book and very very fascinating subjects,
Speaker 7: equally fascinating interview. I anticipate now give us a little
Speaker 7: bit of just your background. I alluded to it and
Speaker 7: even messed it up a little bit. But you're a professor,
Speaker 7: and you have a PhD, and you're a doctor. Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about your background before we talk
Speaker 7: about this incredible study.
Speaker 4: Certainly, I spend years as a law enforcement officer investigator.
Speaker 4: In specific, I was also the executive director of the
Speaker 4: maximum Security Facility for violent sex offenders in the state
Speaker 4: of Kansas. Like I said, I spent years in law
Speaker 4: enforcement as well. And of course, while I was working
Speaker 4: in both law enforcement and corrections, I was pursuing my
Speaker 4: various degrees, ending up with, of course, as you noted,
Speaker 4: the PhD and in criminal justice, and I'm currently the
Speaker 4: chair for the master's program in criminal justice with Kaplan University.
Speaker 7: Very very impressive. Now you say you started off in
Speaker 7: law enforcement. This is not typical in terms of you
Speaker 7: start where you started, to your starting point and your endpoints.
Speaker 7: So it's was there a turning point at some point
Speaker 7: in your law enforcement career? How did you really go
Speaker 7: from the law enforcement all the way to where you
Speaker 7: are here, which is almost a completely different position. Obviously,
Speaker 7: it's very different.
Speaker 4: I began as a law enforcement officer in the city
Speaker 4: of Leavenworth, Kansas, when I was nineteen, and I was
Speaker 4: an undercover narcotics investigator for the city of Levenworth. I'm
Speaker 4: sure that you're familiar with Levenworth through its historical background
Speaker 4: is having a number of corrections facilities prisons specifically, Yeah,
Speaker 4: particularly you know they the famous or infamous uh, Federal
Speaker 4: Penitentiary Leavenworth. Uh. My father was a deputy warden at
Speaker 4: Kansas State Penitentiary when it was Kansas State Penitentiary, and
Speaker 4: of course as it became the corrections facility. So I
Speaker 4: suppose I came by my uh both my career or
Speaker 4: both of these careers, uh in criminal justice rather naturally.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, I have to tell you,
Speaker 4: as it's been a longstanding uh joke, if you will,
Speaker 4: that my father and I had that between us, we
Speaker 4: had a small business in regards to criminal justice, since
Speaker 4: he was a deputy warden, uh, and I was in
Speaker 4: law enforcement. That I would catch them and Dad would
Speaker 4: keep them.
Speaker 7: Yeah, catching, catching, no release, Yes, gotcha, no.
Speaker 4: Kids, catching, no release. So anyway, UH So I began
Speaker 4: UH at that period of time. And quite frankly, the uh,
Speaker 4: the police chief with whom I worked in Leavenworth, was
Speaker 4: very strong in his opinions about the necessity of education,
Speaker 4: particularly higher education for law enforcement officers. And as a
Speaker 4: result of that particular influence, and I had been pursuing
Speaker 4: a bit of college at that time. Anyway, Really, I
Speaker 4: have to credit him for that, that continuation of interest
Speaker 4: in higher education. And I suppose you might say that
Speaker 4: after the bachelor's and mass and program, and that I
Speaker 4: just sort of it seemed a natural trajectory from one
Speaker 4: thing to the other used for no other reason than
Speaker 4: at each point of that academic advancement, the subject matter
Speaker 4: in which I was engaged was so fascinating and it
Speaker 4: lent itself so well to oh, not only the sort
Speaker 4: of organizational processes and environments in the various criminal justice
Speaker 4: agencies in which I was working, but because of the
Speaker 4: kind of course work that I was doing in criminal investigation,
Speaker 4: and that lent itself handily to support really the investigations
Speaker 4: that I was doing in the field.
Speaker 7: Right, Yes, so you could really relate to the things
Speaker 7: that you were learning, the lessons that you were learning.
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, And I found my interests within the criminal
Speaker 4: investigation aspects, but then also such things as investigative process management,
Speaker 4: good policies, those sorts of issues and applied to so yes,
Speaker 4: each step seemed to, you know, work itself together with
Speaker 4: the last.
Speaker 7: Now, this, this book examines lust murder. But before you
Speaker 7: came to this, you obviously had done extensive research, uh
Speaker 7: just prior to this or prior to this, what what
Speaker 7: were you other than lust murder? But I mean you
Speaker 7: obviously studied serial murder. What was your area of research, say,
Speaker 7: prior to this lust murder examiner?
Speaker 4: You know, right, that's that's a good question, because actually
Speaker 4: serial murder, violent sexualized homicide really became the focus of
Speaker 4: my interests, research, personal readings, as well as directing my
Speaker 4: course of studies. Gosh. In the actually in the mid
Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, mid early mid I was a police officer
Speaker 4: in the state of Washington with the campus police at Ellensburg.
Speaker 4: I had been hired there, and when I had when
Speaker 4: I arrived, a young woman who had been a student
Speaker 4: there by the name of Susan Rancourt had been abducted
Speaker 4: and slain by that time by an individual whom we
Speaker 4: did not really know but ultimately turned out to be
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy. Right, So at that point and I at
Speaker 4: that point I had also I rather fit the physical
Speaker 4: description of the young women that he was killing. So
Speaker 4: between spending a wee bit of time UH as bait,
Speaker 4: and then I also had, because of my arrival there,
Speaker 4: my interests in some of the early research that I
Speaker 4: had begun at that time, just in homicide and investigations.
Speaker 4: I was able to become a member of one of
Speaker 4: the multi UH agency task forces that were formed UH
Speaker 4: to UH to investigate UH into those murders, and so
Speaker 4: I had a great opportunity to work with those folks
Speaker 4: and and learn a great deal. The FBI came out
Speaker 4: and provided a significant amount of training UH to to
Speaker 4: those of us that were in some of those UH well,
Speaker 4: the agency task forces, and so really that my whole
Speaker 4: direction in terms of interest was formed quite early on
Speaker 4: because of those murders that were taking place. It really
Speaker 4: began with the question simply at that point in time
Speaker 4: was why, why, why are somebody doing this? How what
Speaker 4: are they doing? Why are they doing it? Why are
Speaker 4: they doing it in this particular way? What what are
Speaker 4: we seeing here? And what is what we're seeing? What
Speaker 4: do those things mean? So really that was the start.
Speaker 7: Well, they're by far the most dramatic of the killers
Speaker 7: is the lust murderers, and obviously they're obviously leave more
Speaker 7: questions and answers, especially years ago, and with the work
Speaker 7: that you've done, it's it's not that there is a comprehension,
Speaker 7: but there's more of a comprehension on the why and
Speaker 7: where that came from and identifying those characteristics that are
Speaker 7: shared between these type of killers. What I wanted to
Speaker 7: ask you too, is that tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: for those that don't know that where the conventional wisdom came.
Speaker 7: Because what's interesting, I guess in this context is that
Speaker 7: tomorrow evening I'm going to be interviewing Mark Olshaker, which
Speaker 7: is the half of the writing team of John Douglas,
Speaker 7: the famous critical profiler. So tell us where the bulk
Speaker 7: of the material came, and then we can talk about
Speaker 7: the previous studies and then the studies that you took
Speaker 7: off from. Obviously research it evolves, and so tell us
Speaker 7: where some of this first information came, and then tell
Speaker 7: us about the development of the understanding of less murder.
Speaker 7: And then we can maybe introduce how you start guarded
Speaker 7: and why this book that investigates lust murder. And we're
Speaker 7: talking about twenty ten, so the most current information.
Speaker 4: Okay, what I was, what I've been doing, of course
Speaker 4: for years, is following the writings and the research of
Speaker 4: a wide variety of it broad authorship of folks who
Speaker 4: were researching and writing about essentially lust murder and or
Speaker 4: serial murder investigation, and some of the earliest writings again
Speaker 4: that would take you back into the or the mid
Speaker 4: to late seventies when it was essentially in its infancy
Speaker 4: at the beginning of if you will, when the FBI
Speaker 4: had their behavior what they called them, their Behavioral Science Unit,
Speaker 4: and of course, you know, folks like Douglas and Munn
Speaker 4: created various tables and analyzes, Keppel and others homes and
Speaker 4: homes in an attempt to try to look at the data.
Speaker 4: And it was it was small data at that point.
Speaker 4: I think the FBI did is the behavioral analysis documentation
Speaker 4: on what was on fewer than thirty persons who are
Speaker 4: identified as serial murder. Of course, there's been a longstanding
Speaker 4: discussion or argument, if you will, as to in regards
Speaker 4: to serial murder. It's it's full and complete definition in
Speaker 4: part is it is it cereal? If it's only two? Uh?
Speaker 4: Do we wait for four and wait in terms of
Speaker 4: defining it or identifying it as such by the investigators.
Speaker 4: And they're various and sundry people that fall within those
Speaker 4: those arguments. For whatever reason, I rather advocate that TUSA.
Speaker 8: Sure uh to call it cereal.
Speaker 4: UH. The word serial is a more contemporary UH use
Speaker 4: of that word if you think about cereal as being
Speaker 4: simply serial murder or serial burglary or serial armed robbery
Speaker 4: or what we're talking about is a continuation, a successful
Speaker 4: continuation of a certain type of act. I say successful
Speaker 4: because the individual is still free uh to continue that
Speaker 4: activity over time. UH and and place so in looking
Speaker 4: at that you know and essentially over in that that
Speaker 4: growing data and the UH the various ways in which
Speaker 4: those persons, both academicians and UH and and UH criminologists
Speaker 4: and other types of of investigators into the issues UH examined.
Speaker 4: The question of essentially the one that I had was
Speaker 4: what are these people up to? What's going on? Are
Speaker 4: there means are ways of identifying? You know, the whole
Speaker 4: purpose in law enforcement is an attempt to protect individuals.
Speaker 4: So if you can figure out how to more quickly
Speaker 4: identify the UH an unknown suspect to or identify maybe
Speaker 4: what might be a cohort of types. Therefore the idea
Speaker 4: of typology, so that you can narrow your investigation into
Speaker 4: something of a reasonable and practical UH best benefit side
Speaker 4: in terms of the identification and capture. Those are really
Speaker 4: the kind of key issues in regards to serial murder investigation.
Speaker 4: Having said that, UH lust murder does not necessarily mean
Speaker 4: that an individual has committed a series of those types
Speaker 4: of of murders. You know, that type of murder exists
Speaker 4: violent sexualized homicide, which is a sort of the perspective
Speaker 4: that I that I take on it, UH is a
Speaker 4: can be just a one incident. But the way of
Speaker 4: the best ways perhaps that conducting the investigations all go
Speaker 4: back to the identifying of the the types of violence
Speaker 4: committed against the individual who is the ultimate victim. What
Speaker 4: was done and things that occur at a crime scene
Speaker 4: that might give indication as to the type of individual
Speaker 4: that committed it and therefore help you work on your investigation.
Speaker 7: Now, for those that are listening to what we should
Speaker 7: explain a little bit here too. And this is interesting
Speaker 7: to me and news to me as well, at least
Speaker 7: from what I've read. And again it doesn't come anywhere
Speaker 7: near any kind of research like you describe and you undertake.
Speaker 7: But what I found interesting was that that what you
Speaker 7: talk about in your book is that lust murder it
Speaker 7: involves say it and what people normally talk what I
Speaker 7: would think too, and I had to wrap my head
Speaker 7: around this was that you talk about redefining that as
Speaker 7: not only the violence that was perpetrated on this victim
Speaker 7: before they were murdered. Are say, for example, very simple
Speaker 7: example of torture before murdering there So there's evidence with.
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Speaker 7: That is that you say, indicate that say the displaying
Speaker 7: of the body, imposing of the body, necrophilia will say
Speaker 7: for example, or mutilation are still should be and are defined.
Speaker 7: This is what you say, and hopefully I'm not paraphrasing
Speaker 7: or getting is wrong that this is part of the
Speaker 7: sadism that the offender was trying to inflict on his victim.
Speaker 7: And so that's right.
Speaker 4: Where the individuals who come along and discovered the offense,
Speaker 4: you know, whether they're civilians or the long firstforcement personnel
Speaker 4: themselves in that regards, it's a as an attempt to
Speaker 4: inflict uh psychological harm, uh to shock, to appall.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: Yes, so it's this.
Speaker 7: And this will this would extend to all the all
Speaker 7: the behavior. We'll say, for example, Albert Fish writing a
Speaker 7: letter to the victims family and saying how much he
Speaker 7: enjoyed the killing and eating their child.
Speaker 4: Yes, he would have enjoyed writing the letter. He would
Speaker 4: have enjoyed anticipating them reading the letter.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, so I thought, and so that's
Speaker 7: a new you you have redefined this or is it this?
Speaker 7: This has occurred in the development of the understanding of
Speaker 7: lust murder.
Speaker 4: It's as a result of my my the search that
Speaker 4: I did. This is the way in which I have
Speaker 4: come to define that regarding what occurs in that those
Speaker 4: purpose fult displays or actions that I think that we
Speaker 4: can fairly easily define as that which focuses on that
Speaker 4: individual's desire intent to inflict pain. Yeah, that's based on
Speaker 4: the researchs out there, and I I just simply drew
Speaker 4: that conclusion based on what was being presented.
Speaker 7: Right. So, for example, if you were to see a
Speaker 7: posed body or displayed body, and you were to see
Speaker 7: some of this post murder offence's offense activity, you would
Speaker 7: then be able to classify that as information or use
Speaker 7: that as information to gather more evidence to create this
Speaker 7: profile on this offender.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well the all of the yes, it's a piece
Speaker 4: of it. Think of that that a display, just that
Speaker 4: the idea that the body is displayed is a piece
Speaker 4: of information that essentially that what what one is looking
Speaker 4: at is a piece of a constellation of artifacts and
Speaker 4: artifacts that exists a crime scene, and and and and
Speaker 4: quite frankly, the I have to advocate for what keppel
Speaker 4: and and and Walter uh It developed is the idea
Speaker 4: that the last crime scene and a murder situation, the
Speaker 4: last crime scene is that the crime scene in which
Speaker 4: one finds, locates, and discovers the body. And when I
Speaker 4: say that's the last crime scene, uh, Keple and Wall
Speaker 4: advocated for and very very clearly wonderfully to find the
Speaker 4: great and very specific possibility uh that within any criminal
Speaker 4: event that factly there's five crime scenes easily that that
Speaker 4: can occur. And by that I mean that the the
Speaker 4: place where the body uh exists is just the last scene.
Speaker 4: It's not the first scene. It is the one of
Speaker 4: which there is much focus necessarily uh and and correctly,
Speaker 4: but it's only one scene that that exists within a
Speaker 4: number of thenes of any bio on crime. So UH,
Speaker 4: let's say this is where the for example, if an
Speaker 4: individual is a victim is uh taken from let's say
Speaker 4: a bar downtown. And I'm thinking of particular case that
Speaker 4: occurred in Kansas City, probably about a decade or two ago.
Speaker 4: A decade ago, the young woman was taken from near
Speaker 4: a bar in the downtown location, transported some twelve to
Speaker 4: fifteen miles outside of town into a rural area, killed,
Speaker 4: and her her body set on fire. Okay, so where
Speaker 4: the body was found discovered quite frankly as a result
Speaker 4: of neighbors seeing fire in the field, if you will,
Speaker 4: that was the last scene. The transportation itself from point
Speaker 4: from the point of the bar to out to the
Speaker 4: field was itself a scene. Therefore, you have a vehicle,
Speaker 4: a car attract something that transported her. That's a scene,
Speaker 4: and you have the acquire the place at which she
Speaker 4: was acquired the inner around that bar, which is the
Speaker 4: scene in and of itself that needs to be examined
Speaker 4: and discussed as a part of the investigation.
Speaker 7: Sure, now with your examination, what I didn't put in
Speaker 7: the introduction but is very evident in your book, in
Speaker 7: your explanation, is that you took the effectiveness and the
Speaker 7: efficiency of the typologies of less murder as researched by
Speaker 7: I'll just name the researchers Goodwin in two thousand, Homes
Speaker 7: and Homes in two thousand and two, Keppel and Walter
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety nine, and Coxus, Cooksey and Irwin in two
Speaker 7: thousand and two. And the book is focused or you
Speaker 7: do examine the cases of Theodore Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 7: and BTK Dennis Raider. Tell us what.
Speaker 4: You I mean.
Speaker 7: Obviously, there was a wealth of knowledge to be gained
Speaker 7: by examining the research that these dedicated researchers did. But
Speaker 7: what was the main issue that you felt was lacking? Obviously,
Speaker 7: and and one of the reasons why you undertook this
Speaker 7: examination yourself of lust murder. What was missing in your
Speaker 7: mind once you went through all the information and from
Speaker 7: all your own personal reading sources.
Speaker 4: My that's a that's a good question, because what these
Speaker 4: those four theories are theorists if you will, that have
Speaker 4: created the typologies of uh uh uh serial murderers. Each
Speaker 4: one of them has, if you will, sort of a
Speaker 4: four type typology for set typology in which characteristics of
Speaker 4: particular offenders. You can say that one, for example, one
Speaker 4: its organized, one is organized, which is the simplest profile,
Speaker 4: and and and in act. But uh, each one of
Speaker 4: these very fine researchers, theorists have the typologies, and they're
Speaker 4: rather competing typologies, if you will. And it was that
Speaker 4: that competition that was a part of my initial My
Speaker 4: question was, you know, is it true that any one
Speaker 4: of these could better identify, explain uh the psychosocial development,
Speaker 4: the uh the psychological history, if you will, that we
Speaker 4: know of of these three individuals that you just mentioned,
Speaker 4: Bundy and C. T. K and Jeffrey Dahmer, could any
Speaker 4: one of them explain them identify h could they fit better?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 4: And so what I did was sake beaten by way
Speaker 4: by doing these cases of these three individuals, essentially based
Speaker 4: on all the information that we have about them, looked
Speaker 4: at how well do they fit in any one of
Speaker 4: the types within the typology is one better than the others.
Speaker 4: And essentially, for me, the upshot was that after I
Speaker 4: went through those particular examinations, that wasn't the match matter
Speaker 4: that any one of those typology sets better did one
Speaker 4: over the other. But what they did do was to
Speaker 4: provide to if you want to put them together, you
Speaker 4: had a much more comprehensive analysis that one could use.
Speaker 4: So think of it as a net if you if
Speaker 4: think of his nets. Use one net and you're fishing,
Speaker 4: some fish can get through the holes in the net.
Speaker 4: Another net was in that the holes of the net
Speaker 4: becomes smaller and again and again. And so that's essentially
Speaker 4: where I arrived at, if you will. At the at
Speaker 4: the end of the research was that all four of these,
Speaker 4: rather than competing, are complementing each other.
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, so you want to put something comprehensive and
Speaker 7: dispel with some of the stuff that, as you put it,
Speaker 7: might be incongruent.
Speaker 4: Yes, And one of the things that makes it just
Speaker 4: a wee bit difficult, or you know, they can, is
Speaker 4: that each one of these typologies and the theorists devised
Speaker 4: names for the categories of those types that do not.
Speaker 4: It doesn't it's not you don't do a one to
Speaker 4: one match. So you have to be able to identify
Speaker 4: if I'm if I'm calling somebody a h an asocial
Speaker 4: offender or disorganized, is that somebody else's sadistic murderer or
Speaker 4: psychological abriant in whatever other category. So it's finding that
Speaker 4: how well each of those matched within so that you
Speaker 4: get a clearer definition of a more comprehensive profiling opportunity
Speaker 4: than you would using any one of it.
Speaker 7: Okay, I think I understand excuse me now, Other than
Speaker 7: the general infamy and or fame of these three serial
Speaker 7: killers that you decided to study specifically Bundy, Dahmer and
Speaker 7: Dennis Raider, why did you pick those three? We know
Speaker 7: you had alluded not allude to, but you spoke about
Speaker 7: your connection early on with Bundy and but tell us
Speaker 7: why you picked these three cases specifically.
Speaker 4: The breath and that So the information available for each
Speaker 4: one of these individuals, uh is significant? We have when
Speaker 4: I say we there is available one can acquire through
Speaker 4: some research and some efforts, and a great deal a
Speaker 4: great deal of information about excuse me, uh, their their
Speaker 4: their childhood, their early development, what people saw in them,
Speaker 4: thought about them when they they didn't identify them as
Speaker 4: you know, murderous. What we know about their crime specific behavior,
Speaker 4: what ultimately, how ultimately the victims were identified victim number one,
Speaker 4: number two. Just because you find the body that this
Speaker 4: is the first body you find, does not mean that
Speaker 4: the first victim that exists, sure for that individual. So
Speaker 4: a great deal of great breadth of information uh about
Speaker 4: that person, uh, psychological profiles, i Q tests, UH, high
Speaker 4: school UH grades, you know those kinds of things uh
Speaker 4: that available.
Speaker 7: Did you review personal interviews? Because I know all three
Speaker 7: of those characters did a fair amount of interviews as well.
Speaker 4: I yes, I did an incredible amount of reading on
Speaker 4: all I think it felt like it anyway, on all
Speaker 4: three of those individuals, so that I could pull from
Speaker 4: uh from you know, those the interviews that were conducted,
Speaker 4: whether they were they were conducted when they arrested. It
Speaker 4: one point for exact, for example, Dominer spent time in
Speaker 4: in jail. Uh he was on probation, and so he
Speaker 4: had h some comprehensive ev outs that had been done
Speaker 4: on him through the court system, much like the other
Speaker 4: So you know, there was a great deal that one
Speaker 4: could delve into so you could find out, you know,
Speaker 4: for example, if Douglass says that in his research and
Speaker 4: it says that a person who does this thing, this
Speaker 4: kind of murder, they have an IQ under rockily most
Speaker 4: often found to have an IQ under say one hundreds, right,
Speaker 4: that they do manual labors. If that and the other, well,
Speaker 4: how well does that fit with what we know about
Speaker 4: you know, any one of these three individuals, right? For example,
Speaker 4: for example, I know that you know that they may
Speaker 4: always make much ado about the fact that they say,
Speaker 4: you know, Jeffrey Dahmer was quite quite bright. You know,
Speaker 4: he had an IQ of one hundred and fifteen, right,
Speaker 4: which actually is not that much. No, the average IQ
Speaker 4: of the federal inmates serving time and the Bureau of
Speaker 4: Prisons is one hundred and fifteen.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well there you go, right.
Speaker 8: The.
Speaker 4: Research regarding the average IQ of the successful bachelor's degree person.
Speaker 4: You know, somebody who succeeds and get a bachelor's degree
Speaker 4: here ten years ago, it was one hundred and twenty,
Speaker 4: so you may have you know, he's a little bit
Speaker 4: brighter than maybe the average if we wanted to play
Speaker 4: from ninety to one hundred and ten is average but
Speaker 4: that's not superstar material. No, no, no no. And at
Speaker 4: the same time you have Gary Ridgeway, who underwent a
Speaker 4: number of IQ tests and he is a IQ. His
Speaker 4: best IQ test showed him that eighty nine. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: then he has if you will, if he counts the
Speaker 4: number of bodies in terms of cereal offenses, he has
Speaker 4: an extraordinary record. So it's not about IQ.
Speaker 7: No. Picton was like that too. He's a half wit
Speaker 7: as well, and he's got forty nine or something to
Speaker 7: thirty three, forty nine, enough enough to prove his prowess.
Speaker 7: I guess, well.
Speaker 4: Whatever it was that he was, you know, proving or doing.
Speaker 7: What was the last name again, Picton, Robert Picton, Vancouver,
Speaker 7: all the women on. He was a pig farmer and
Speaker 7: so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I am familiar with that. Yeah yeah, just he figured
Speaker 4: out how to do it. And that really was the key.
Speaker 4: If we look at Jeffrey Dahmer and he talked about
Speaker 4: serial murder and and the way in which he committed
Speaker 4: the murders in terms of analyzing it, and you saw him,
Speaker 4: I think it's almost the way. It was almost boring.
Speaker 4: It was like going to work, sure, you know, go
Speaker 4: out to the gay bar. Offer somebody some money or
Speaker 4: beer on the way you know, at you know, to
Speaker 4: go home, Give them some beer, have some drugs in
Speaker 4: the alcohol, take pictures, kill them. Justmember time and time
Speaker 4: and time and time and time again.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Yeah, there was an interesting It was an interesting
Speaker 7: story too because Wrestler and Douglas are both from that
Speaker 7: the early days of doing the profiles on the you know,
Speaker 7: the thirty serial killers or so and uh. But they
Speaker 7: really had a difference of opinion, to say the least,
Speaker 7: when Wrestler was ready to testify or did testify on
Speaker 7: Dahmer's behalf to say that he was insane and Douglas
Speaker 7: argued that he wasn't, and Wrestler characterized the I guess
Speaker 7: the again they've talked about organized and disorganized, and Dahmer
Speaker 7: went from in his own testimony, went from organized, very
Speaker 7: organized and careful to sort of erratic and and disorganized.
Speaker 7: Yet he was going to be evicted from his apartment,
Speaker 7: so when when you read the interview, it's almost like
Speaker 7: he was stressed out because he had to move. But certainly.
Speaker 4: Right if you look at Dahmer's early history, his childhood,
Speaker 4: net the the family dynamics first of all, just going
Speaker 4: to Dahmer himself, he was a fool book.
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Speaker 4: Committed alcoholic, committed to alcohol rather by the time he
Speaker 4: was fourteen. Now to be a fully committed alcoholic by
Speaker 4: the time you're fourteen, there's been other stuff going on,
Speaker 4: something moves you along that particular path. Now, Dahmer stated,
Speaker 4: and his father denied that he had been sexually molested
Speaker 4: by a neighbor boy when he was ten.
Speaker 7: Also, and that sounds that sounds reasonable because he Dahmer
Speaker 7: in his in the interviews, was very forthcoming and that
Speaker 7: was not as much like a lot of these guys.
Speaker 7: Wasn't blaming everyone in his family and everyone on earth
Speaker 7: for his behavior.
Speaker 4: That right, right? Well, you know, also when one looks
Speaker 4: at Dahmer's early history and he's alcoholic at fourteen, it's
Speaker 4: not so much as a masking of he obviously he'd
Speaker 4: been sexually molested, or he was the states that he
Speaker 4: was sexually molested. That's going to traumatize a child. There
Speaker 4: were other things going on. There were physicalities, points of
Speaker 4: particular physical attributes that began to appear, characteristics in his
Speaker 4: his very early his preteens, in his very early teens. Uh,
Speaker 4: the way in which he moved is court lack of coordination,
Speaker 4: a stiffness of frame, a flatness of aspect, all these
Speaker 4: things if anybody was looking or knew how to look,
Speaker 4: and that's always problems. Knew how to look. Examined, should
Speaker 4: have good could have give indications that you were looking
Speaker 4: at a early forming schizophrenic. And as a matter of fact,
Speaker 4: the the the medications that he was given while he
Speaker 4: was in prison before he was killed, are those sorts
Speaker 4: of medications that are given to an individual who has schizophrenia.
Speaker 4: So by the time he gets interviewed, he's balanced.
Speaker 7: But at the same time, the vast majority of schizophrenics
Speaker 7: don't commit murder.
Speaker 4: No they don't. But on top of a number of
Speaker 4: these other complications. Again, it's think of it as a constellation,
Speaker 4: right of things recurring, and so with the early family dynamics. Uh,
Speaker 4: they if you will on from what I've seen, it
Speaker 4: seems as though there may have I'm not a physician,
Speaker 4: I'm not a psychiatrist, but they're benchmarks that indicate that
Speaker 4: the likelihood of schizophrenia, the alcoholism that continued throughout his life,
Speaker 4: of course until he gets into prison, and that's really
Speaker 4: about the only time. Uh. The again, the family dynamics
Speaker 4: were significant. He goes off and is trained by the military,
Speaker 4: and at first they put him in the MP division
Speaker 4: to be trained as an MP. Uh. He doesn't make uh,
Speaker 4: the firearms qualification, so that then he's transferred over uh
Speaker 4: and becomes essentially a uh whatever metic is. So he
Speaker 4: learned some further interesting information about body dynamics. So it's
Speaker 4: this constellation of things culminating to a point where then
Speaker 4: you may have some some actionable processes going on. But
Speaker 4: he committed his first murder during his US what the
Speaker 4: summer after his high school graduation, that's.
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, yeah, Now tell us because you know your
Speaker 7: book explains the the route or the progression from fantasy,
Speaker 7: violent sexual fantasies to this lust murder. When we're talking
Speaker 7: about Dahmer, Well, let's stay there because there has been
Speaker 7: He was very candid, or it tried to be anyway,
Speaker 7: or it seems so that he wanted to be very
Speaker 7: forthright about what happened. And he went on to say,
Speaker 7: oh if I knew, and this was a compulsion in
Speaker 7: your study for this book, how did what was the
Speaker 7: fantasy that was first they first developed within Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 7: And then what was that fantasy? And then how did
Speaker 7: that fantasy in real terms progress?
Speaker 4: There isn't really a one I have to tell you
Speaker 4: that the research and you probably haven't fallen across it
Speaker 4: in the book yet, uh in terms of you know,
Speaker 4: in looking at at the book. But when we talk
Speaker 4: about fantasies and violent fantasies, violent sexualized fantasies, UH, there's
Speaker 4: been actually a number of very good, UH pieces of
Speaker 4: research that have asked about and fantasies and violent fantasies
Speaker 4: of non incarcerated persons, including college students. And there's not
Speaker 4: much difference, right, which makes sense if you stop and
Speaker 4: think about the UH. A large number of the videos
Speaker 4: that are in the video store, sure you know, UH
Speaker 4: many of them are violent sexualized fantasies, whether the war
Speaker 4: theme or UH the eyes, the hills have eyes, and
Speaker 4: the rest of that whole genre. Uh kind of saying, Uh,
Speaker 4: A lot of those are uh sadistic, violent, sexualized, homicidal,
Speaker 4: uh entertainment.
Speaker 7: Mm hmmm. I've never really thought about it that way.
Speaker 7: They should have no I the same way.
Speaker 4: Again.
Speaker 7: Well, I see what you're saying, but you know, the
Speaker 7: phenomena is much more than that's just regular folk with
Speaker 7: this Luca magnonirom Montreal that that killed the victim apparently
Speaker 7: online and then uh did atrocities to the body necrophilia online.
Speaker 7: Incredible amount of followers. I read all kinds of comments
Speaker 7: from people that were worshiping him, wanted to sleep with him,
Speaker 7: wanted to follow him, talking about his allegiance to Satan.
Speaker 7: It was incredible, the amount of followers among people that
Speaker 7: were commenting, among people that were interested in this guy.
Speaker 4: Aful lot of those movies get purchased or and you know,
Speaker 4: rented daily.
Speaker 7: Well, what I was going to say is the phenomena
Speaker 7: is now is that there's actual gore sites that posted
Speaker 7: Luca Magnata's video and other videos showing either cruelty or
Speaker 7: murder or beheadings or so It's incredible the phenomena, like
Speaker 7: you said, college students is surprising, but regular people take
Speaker 7: that walk that edge, I guess psychologically to and find
Speaker 7: entertainment from the sadistic treatment of people, sometimes fictional it's
Speaker 7: confined to, but often non fictional. Like I said with
Speaker 7: the look a magnotic case.
Speaker 4: Well, if if we consider history and the history of
Speaker 4: violence and torture in the world, in the in the
Speaker 4: United States and the mid late early late in the
Speaker 4: eighteen hundred, seventeen hundreds into the early nineteen hundreds, the
Speaker 4: executions were public displays. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, there were
Speaker 4: exactly The part of it was too, purportedly because it
Speaker 4: was supposed to be a social lesson. At the same time,
Speaker 4: there there were people there for entertainment. It was that
Speaker 4: which was scheduled entertainment and could have easily and it
Speaker 4: was perceived as such, go a little for they're back
Speaker 4: in history, and yes it was entertainment. The unspeakable acts
Speaker 4: by other what we considered otherwise ordinary people is a
Speaker 4: common theme in the history of the world. Muh think
Speaker 4: of alb Rock.
Speaker 7: Yeah, sure, certainly, certainly right now the murders. Pardon me,
Speaker 7: when we talked about when when you talk about the
Speaker 7: murders of Ted Bundy, A lot of people that don't
Speaker 7: know the entire story and and certainly, uh, some people
Speaker 7: don't know about the necrophilia and visiting the bodies and
Speaker 7: some of the stuff that now is obviously is regarded
Speaker 7: as uh this, you know, he's regarded as a less murderer.
Speaker 7: But to the person that didn't know some of those
Speaker 7: facts and just saw a killer bludgeoning or beating with
Speaker 7: a pipe or a bat or whatever his victim, they
Speaker 7: wouldn't see what somebody might classify as this as a
Speaker 7: lust murder. Tell us what you found out about what
Speaker 7: you discovered about Ted Bundy and in regards as Ted
Speaker 7: Bundy as a case of lust murder.
Speaker 4: Okay, let me begin with well stating that that lust murdered.
Speaker 4: The phrase does not indicate that the individual was doing
Speaker 4: violent sex. Okay, it is sexualized violence, which means that
Speaker 4: the purpose of the acquisition of the victim, the violence
Speaker 4: against the victim, those things are all part and parcel
Speaker 4: of that which underpins the motivation. Uh. Those things that
Speaker 4: we attribute to lust or the sexualization of the actions
Speaker 4: are fairly secondary to the harm, the injury, the humiliation,
Speaker 4: the death of the individual. So it's it's as the
Speaker 4: old saying used to go. It says, using sex as
Speaker 4: a weapon, it's just yet one more weapon, as much
Speaker 4: as the ice pick, the knife, the gun, uh, the
Speaker 4: bob wire used to bind an individual's hands, uh, the
Speaker 4: guaranting of the person. As with bt k ah, death
Speaker 4: is the culmination of sex is an aspect. So lust
Speaker 4: murder just doesn't mean that lust Uh. Sex hasn't really
Speaker 4: that much to do. What you're looking at is that
Speaker 4: it's an an artifact of the crime as a whole.
Speaker 4: And think about that lust if you will. Well, let's
Speaker 4: let me back up. Human beings exist on a continuum
Speaker 4: of violence, right in terms of who it is that
Speaker 4: that we are uh. And when I say it, so,
Speaker 4: it's not these behaviors are not siloed. The Jeffrey Dahmers
Speaker 4: and the ted Bundies of the world are not removed
Speaker 4: from the human environment, from the human continuum. They are
Speaker 4: on that continuum. What it is that they do, as
Speaker 4: violent and as abhorrent as it is to the vast
Speaker 4: majority of us, it is still all human behavior. And
Speaker 4: so think of it as the continuum that on one side,
Speaker 4: if we can say so that on one one hand
Speaker 4: you have the mother terrasas of the world and that
Speaker 4: of that type of behavior and interaction with human beings.
Speaker 4: And on the other side, on the far end of
Speaker 4: the other side of the continuum, you have the pole
Speaker 4: pots and hitlers and soloins on that side. And then right, okay,
Speaker 4: And so then Dahmer and Dennis Rader and Harold Shipman
Speaker 4: of England exist on that continuum between those extreme poles,
Speaker 4: right okay, And so do their and their behaviors towards
Speaker 4: you know, their behaviors towards others. It's a part of
Speaker 4: that continuum. So, as you note in the book, I'd
Speaker 4: rather argue against the fact of thinking, particularly for the investigator,
Speaker 4: to not think about or our attempt to categorize these
Speaker 4: individuals as monsters, because once we do that, we take
Speaker 4: them out of the human category and consider them the
Speaker 4: other and then as such we lose sight of some
Speaker 4: very basic issues that we need to be able to
Speaker 4: consider and be mindful of an investigation. For example, Dennis
Speaker 4: rad complained at one point that he wasn't able to
Speaker 4: acquire a victim that he wanted to because his son
Speaker 4: had a game that day. Okay, Okay, he had other
Speaker 4: life to attend to. So they go to the grocery store,
Speaker 4: they go to the launder mat, they go to school.
Speaker 4: Dennis Rader went to work every day. Ted Bundy went
Speaker 4: went to school, took classes. There are these other life
Speaker 4: factors that play in and one we're not aware that
Speaker 4: on that continuum, and with those individuals and investigations we
Speaker 4: lose points of process and investigations.
Speaker 7: Well, that's that's interesting too, because the killers themselves retained
Speaker 7: their humanness. That was part of their ruse in that
Speaker 7: that they were very charismatic, at least enough to get
Speaker 7: many victims to do their to comply. So obviously, if
Speaker 7: you want to right.
Speaker 4: Right, well, you know, at the same time, you know
Speaker 4: that how many times have you heard from a person
Speaker 4: somebody gets arrested for some type of violence up to
Speaker 4: and including murder, and the people who lived next door
Speaker 4: to them go, we seemed like such a nice guy. Sure,
Speaker 4: I would offer that it's not so much that he
Speaker 4: seemed like a nice guy. They didn't know him. They
Speaker 4: weren't paying attention. But you know, anymore than perhaps we
Speaker 4: all pay attention or lack thereof, of our neighbors, we're
Speaker 4: not focusing in that particular way, uh, because we don't
Speaker 4: have to. We're all rather rather busy people, you know,
Speaker 4: with with our own lives, and so we're not assessing
Speaker 4: or analyzing UH people's interactions. And in most regards, UH,
Speaker 4: most people are going to assume, unless given some sort
Speaker 4: of notice, that someone interacting with them does not necessarily
Speaker 4: mean them any harm, right, right, you know, And at
Speaker 4: the first sign or indication that it might be, then
Speaker 4: that that's that's you know, if you feel that in
Speaker 4: an uh contact with an individual that changes your demeanor
Speaker 4: that towards them, does it not?
Speaker 7: Oh? Certainly?
Speaker 6: Certainly?
Speaker 4: Right right? And so your radar goes up at that point,
Speaker 4: and do you have done? Yeah, if you don't have
Speaker 4: that indication, or maybe you don't have a good radar,
Speaker 4: then one can you find themselves now on the wrong
Speaker 4: end of a situation.
Speaker 7: Right now, we're talking about serial murder. You had some
Speaker 7: interesting statistics in your book. He says that six thousand
Speaker 7: or more homicides go unsolved in a ten year period,
Speaker 7: is it or a one year period? You say? That
Speaker 7: represents thirty three percent of annual murder rate. Okay, so
Speaker 7: it's per year, Okay, six thousand, and you agree, basically
Speaker 7: agree with the FBI's assertion that to be about sixty
Speaker 7: three serial killers responsible for approximately seven hundred and fifty murders,
Speaker 7: almost a dozen each on an average out So we're
Speaker 7: talking about lust murder being a small sub category or
Speaker 7: a small segment of the total amount of murders. What
Speaker 7: kind of percentage of do you do believe that are
Speaker 7: are lust murderers and what would that come in terms
Speaker 7: of actual numbers.
Speaker 4: Well, as you know, the murder rate, homicide rate in
Speaker 4: the United States has been going down significantly since the
Speaker 4: what mid eighties, right, So I think in the mid
Speaker 4: eighties or somewhere around twenty six twenty eight thousand a
Speaker 4: year per year, and it's back to the level I
Speaker 4: think if I remember right, as about sixteen thousand, which
Speaker 4: is kind of reflective of the approximate proximately sixteen thousand
Speaker 4: a year, reflective of what the mid to late nineteen
Speaker 4: sixties was. Having said that, having said that, in the
Speaker 4: mid in the mid nineteen sixties, the solve rate, the
Speaker 4: solve rate identified bring to justice arrest the individual who
Speaker 4: committed the murder solve rate was ninety percent, pretty good.
Speaker 7: Incredible yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 4: Now. However, on the average in the US is I
Speaker 4: believe about sixty five percent now the type of if
Speaker 4: you will, bells and whistles that we had available to
Speaker 4: us UH nationally in the in the mid nineteen sixties,
Speaker 4: there was no computers. There certainly were no cell phones,
Speaker 4: databases or any of all of those kinds of informative
Speaker 4: process is available. But since the mid nineteen sixties we've
Speaker 4: been losing about one percent of solve rate a year.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. The population has drawn up significantly as well.
Speaker 7: What do you and what do you attribute? What did
Speaker 7: you conclude? You can attribute this to.
Speaker 4: What I What I've found is that, for example, in
Speaker 4: the mid nineteen sixties, if if you were committing less murder,
Speaker 4: there are homicides being committed in that and most of
Speaker 4: them involved some sort of relationship issue. And I say relationship,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I buy you a beer and then
Speaker 4: I don't. I decide I don't like the way you
Speaker 4: part your hair. After several after several beers, okay, I
Speaker 4: lose a pool. Yeah, it's a domestic violence gone to
Speaker 4: its worst extreme. Right, We're we're high school buddies having
Speaker 4: an argument and whatever, or you know, it's kind of
Speaker 4: maybe some lacho things, but what society was in the
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties, and and the kind of country that we
Speaker 4: were getting to be very mobile, and then we became
Speaker 4: highly mobile and as a results of me and then
Speaker 4: fractured as a result. I live in I live in Oregon.
Speaker 4: I was raised in Kansas. My parents, on the other hand,
Speaker 4: married and lived in the same location in Kansas from
Speaker 4: the time they were well, they were teenagers when they
Speaker 4: got married. Sure they then they settled on in the
Speaker 4: same place that my father's father lived. That doesn't happen.
Speaker 4: That doesn't happen as much now as it did then. Again,
Speaker 4: we're highly mobile in some ways, as much connection as
Speaker 4: we have, like you and I chatting now, were more
Speaker 4: disconnected socially in terms of the way in which we
Speaker 4: perceive each other than we have been before. Okay, the
Speaker 4: society has changed, and society has always changed. But what
Speaker 4: has happened is that some of the processes, if you will,
Speaker 4: for policy, see conceptualizations in regards to best practices or
Speaker 4: investigations have not changed.
Speaker 6: I see.
Speaker 4: Okay, And so where society has moved along in some ways,
Speaker 4: we have not bels and whistles and tools are nice,
Speaker 4: but they have to be rightly applied. Kay, it does
Speaker 4: no good to find that there's some DNA as a
Speaker 4: scene if you don't have anything to connect and relate
Speaker 4: it to, or if some policy process inhibits you from
Speaker 4: moving the investigation forward in any significant way. And then
Speaker 4: there lastly, it's not necessarily least the ball is a
Speaker 4: direction or sourcing of funds for investigative purposes. The number
Speaker 4: of identified serial murders in the United States, those persons
Speaker 4: that we've identified bring to justice, but they're in court,
Speaker 4: they got arrested. We've been able to identify that there's
Speaker 4: two three bodies associated with their behaviors where we saw
Speaker 4: a peaking an ever annual increase of numbers associated with
Speaker 4: that excuse me, up until two thousand and one. Funds
Speaker 4: have been done differently with now since two thousand and one.
Speaker 4: So you don't have those the some of the resources,
Speaker 4: people and money going to that type.
Speaker 7: Of processes, right despite the problem they're not there's any
Speaker 7: solution for its cutting resources. Yeah, So there's definitely a
Speaker 7: need for something like what you've done with this book
Speaker 7: in terms of a valuable resource because it's one of
Speaker 7: the few bright spots.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, it will. What this what the book
Speaker 4: tries to do is by putting these tools together and
Speaker 4: a I hope relatively comprehensive way and showing that there
Speaker 4: is a more comprehensive way of using utilizing these various
Speaker 4: techniques to help investigators identify, but also saying that there
Speaker 4: are some processes as well, anyways to support those investigative practices,
Speaker 4: so that if they do come across a scene that
Speaker 4: is represented in the with more comprehensive modeling that they
Speaker 4: have to they can have an opportunity identifying it. And
Speaker 4: that really is the first key in any investigation is
Speaker 4: what am I looking at? What is the crime?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: You know it? Is it a burglary? Or was it?
Speaker 4: Was it a rape ultimately or a homicide? And that
Speaker 4: one of the vesicles of being able to commit that
Speaker 4: was that one had to commit the burglary to you know,
Speaker 4: to breaking into the house, the residency, the building in
Speaker 4: order to affect it.
Speaker 7: Yes, now this book has come out in twenty ten,
Speaker 7: and was there any surprises on how this book has
Speaker 7: been utilized or in any pleasant surprises on how well
Speaker 7: this has been received or adopted.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. I don't know how great its
Speaker 4: distribution has been. I know that I've received emails and
Speaker 4: uh uh discussions from folks in in Europe, South America,
Speaker 4: up into uh Canada, various places in the United some
Speaker 4: various in the United States. So I'm I'm assuming that
Speaker 4: it's had something of a reception. There's not there's not
Speaker 4: a lot of money pouring in.
Speaker 7: Right, welcome to publishing here right right.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's going to make it's not going
Speaker 4: to make me rich. But I didn't write it for
Speaker 4: that reason. I wrote it to create a tool or
Speaker 4: one of the tools, uh and an invested kit, if
Speaker 4: you will, that that might be of use to the
Speaker 4: flips there in the field doing the works.
Speaker 7: Well, certainly, certainly, And and you know, the thing is
Speaker 7: to the understandability of this book and what you've written.
Speaker 7: And of course, when you're taking three of the most
Speaker 7: you know, some of the most popular or infamous serial
Speaker 7: killers of all time to study as well, it really
Speaker 7: does have an application because many people have read true
Speaker 7: crime books, or read articles or read a lot of
Speaker 7: information about those murderers. So I found it interesting you did,
Speaker 7: Dahmer and then Bundy and bt K, where your average
Speaker 7: person wouldn't think of those as lust murders. So I
Speaker 7: found it interesting that you put that that you dispelled
Speaker 7: those myths and and made a very interesting case for
Speaker 7: lust murder and its definition. And it's a fascinating, fascinating
Speaker 7: book and an incredible subject as well, so very the
Speaker 7: true crime market. The people that read the books are
Speaker 7: fascinated with the kind of statistics that you have that
Speaker 7: just thirty three percent of these murders annually go unsolved,
Speaker 7: and then a certain percentage of those seem to be
Speaker 7: these less murders, and with the phenomena of people wanting
Speaker 7: to be famous, it seems that certainly this phenomena has
Speaker 7: always been around, but we still we get to see
Speaker 7: more dramatic examples of it, I think.
Speaker 4: All right, you know, And the thing with the thing
Speaker 4: about reported murders is that that is just it. It
Speaker 4: is the identified discovered homicide, which means that we have
Speaker 4: a body, or we have some indication that that particular
Speaker 4: sort of violence took place, but it's only those about
Speaker 4: which we know. So and the thing withterial murders, you know,
Speaker 4: as I think you mentioned earlier, is those are the
Speaker 4: ones we know about. Is you recall during one of
Speaker 4: the interviews that was conducted with Ted Bundy, one of
Speaker 4: the FBI agents asked him if it was true that
Speaker 4: he had killed was it twenty three young women?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 4: And he replied, you might be closer if you put
Speaker 4: a zero on the end of that. Now, whether that
Speaker 4: was truth the Bragg Bravado, I don't know. But all
Speaker 4: we know is about those that are discovered. These are
Speaker 4: not the Neil miss And what they're wanting to do
Speaker 4: is get caught. Doesn't stand, doesn't stand at all. It's
Speaker 4: a nice fiction. But the problem is that it's problem
Speaker 4: is that in the fiction category, they don't intend to
Speaker 4: get caught. That is the idea. They intend to continue
Speaker 4: to want to be successful at therefore not cost for
Speaker 4: doing the harm that they do.
Speaker 7: Well, it's especially evident when you have a killer like
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Dahmer who was learning and practicing to dispose of
Speaker 7: his victims entirely, not leave anybody at all, confine his
Speaker 7: atrocities to his own home. And he's not the only
Speaker 7: serial killer that has done that. So when we talk
Speaker 7: about people missing, like you say that those are the
Speaker 7: bodies that are found. But these same type of blust
Speaker 7: murderers could well be the kinds of killers that are
Speaker 7: disposing of their bodies once their usefulness is finished and
Speaker 7: then just keeping trophies or revisiting, you know sites. So
Speaker 7: there's like all of these folks did, like all of
Speaker 7: the three that I looked at, and people don't necessarily
Speaker 7: And now I don't think you asked at one.
Speaker 4: I mentioned one point that jeff not Jeffrey Dahmer ted
Speaker 4: Bundy committed necrophilia. Remember that continuum concept in regards to
Speaker 4: a continuum of violence. Uh, for persons that are committing
Speaker 4: serial murder. Uh, necrophilia is just on the continuum. The
Speaker 4: last point of the continuum before total usually seems to
Speaker 4: be totally compensation of the individual committing the crimes, is
Speaker 4: uh cannibalism.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So uh, that's just that's sort of like the next
Speaker 4: last step and doesn't mean that, of course, all these
Speaker 4: steps can take place at a point, but much of
Speaker 4: this violence that they commit is progressive.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, each new Yeah, And in your book you
Speaker 7: really do cover the development with the in these cases
Speaker 7: as well. You go more into the childhood and talk
Speaker 7: about maybe not necessarily triggers but behavior that seems to
Speaker 7: somewhat explain anyway. Obviously every individual is different and responds
Speaker 7: to different trauma or events, but it certainly is gives
Speaker 7: people a really interesting background to see the progression, as
Speaker 7: you say, into the unspeakable, and then even a further
Speaker 7: progression as they descend almost into madness at the end
Speaker 7: and get more frantic. And especially with the case of
Speaker 7: Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer, oh yes, well.
Speaker 8: And.
Speaker 4: Yeah, BTK might be a wee bit of an exception,
Speaker 4: although his his full set of prelictions that he had
Speaker 4: terms of behaviors were quite remarkable. But uh, and and
Speaker 4: those in which he was I think I mentioned in
Speaker 4: the maybe I mentioned in the book, and that the
Speaker 4: the officers who were interviewing him began to interview him
Speaker 4: wondering how much information they were going to be able
Speaker 4: to get from him. Yeah, and then they couldn't shut
Speaker 4: him up.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well I heard you on Berl
Speaker 7: Bears say that very thing, that, yeah, you couldn't shut
Speaker 7: him up. After that, I was like, oh, no, what
Speaker 7: have we what have we started here? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yet you know, uh, and it's it's that, you know,
Speaker 4: ironically amusing kind of of point, but it was he
Speaker 4: saw himself perceived of himself as being kind of a
Speaker 4: member of that law enforcement community.
Speaker 7: Oh of course he did.
Speaker 4: You know, he had his bachelor's degree in criminal justice,
Speaker 4: but he was never hired by a criminal justice agency
Speaker 4: because he was not successful in the taking the psychological test.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, lucky, lucky. Yeah. Who knows what what kind
Speaker 7: of serial killer would have been if he would have
Speaker 7: had a badge?
Speaker 4: I mean, jeez, well he did, and that was the problem.
Speaker 4: He had a badge in that small community, and he
Speaker 4: was because of that. He had this assumed authority, boy,
Speaker 4: scout leader, you know, president of his church, all those
Speaker 4: sorts of things that when we look at a person, uh,
Speaker 4: in that kind of paper process, excuse me, we assume
Speaker 4: good things. Yes, certainly, right is essentially were some of
Speaker 4: the masking.
Speaker 7: Features well, certainly too. We talked about ten Bundy and
Speaker 7: rural law enforcement professionals working at a suicide hotline, and
Speaker 7: unbeknownst to her, here's the most infamous serial killers of
Speaker 7: all time showing empathy and friendship and.
Speaker 4: So yeah, practicing, practicing, yes, practicing absolutely, yeah, Yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 7: Well, Janet, I want to thank you very much doctor
Speaker 7: Janet McCloughan for this interview talking about dorato phonophilia, investigating
Speaker 7: lust murder. It's been very enjoyable and very eye opening.
Speaker 7: A great book by the way, and thank you very
Speaker 7: much for this interview.
Speaker 4: Well, Dan, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you and you have a great night and
Speaker 7: hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you again.
Speaker 7: Good night, thank you, good night.