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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we

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<v Speaker 1>left off with the Kathy Ruhmler conversation with Congress. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, let's introduce minority Exhibit D bates number EFTA

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<v Speaker 1>A zero two three nine five three zero three. This

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<v Speaker 1>is a June twenty sixteen email exchange between you and

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein regarding a possible opportunity for you with a

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<v Speaker 1>hedge fund called Citadel. In this exchange, mister Epstein suggested

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<v Speaker 1>that Citadel CEO Ken Griffin quote might just be interested

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<v Speaker 1>in a woman. You responded, quote, oh Jesus, meaning you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to trade one of your Russians for my comp

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<v Speaker 1>end quote. What did you mean by quote one of

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<v Speaker 1>your Russians? Answer? I think I'm looking at a different

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<v Speaker 1>email exchange, Miss Cotton. Yeah, I think you skipped some

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<v Speaker 1>lines or we have the wrong version. Miss Rumler, we

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<v Speaker 1>have a different version of the email redacted. Let's go

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<v Speaker 1>off record for a second. Back on record, now, what

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<v Speaker 1>did you mean by quote one of your Russians? Mister Fishman, again,

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<v Speaker 1>do you mind if she reads the entire chain? Question? Absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>Ruemler Okay. The context of this is that I received

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<v Speaker 1>outreach from the soon to be retiring chief legal officer

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<v Speaker 1>of Citadel about whether i'd be willing to take a

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<v Speaker 1>meeting about potentially accepting that job. I didn't know anything

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<v Speaker 1>about Citadel. Frankly, you know, I'd spent the vast majority

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<v Speaker 1>of my career in public service at this point, and

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<v Speaker 1>I certainly wasn't at this point in time. I certainly

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't like a Wall Street person, and so Epstein was

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<v Speaker 1>a finance guy. He was like the Wall Street guy.

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<v Speaker 1>So I asked him, you know, what do you I

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<v Speaker 1>asked him, I infer from the cemail over the phone,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you know about Citadel? And again, in typical

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein fashion, he immediately jumps into, I can negotiate your compensation.

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<v Speaker 1>So I didn't ask him I didn't have an offer

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<v Speaker 1>from Citadel. And he's already talking about how he's going

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<v Speaker 1>to negotiate my compensation. Question that clear he's jumping into

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<v Speaker 1>the talks about helping you hypothetically get this job at

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<v Speaker 1>Citadel and negotiating your compensation. Answer. No, no, he's not. No, no,

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<v Speaker 1>no question. Why did you say one of your Russians?

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<v Speaker 1>Mister Fishman, I'm sorry, question, what do you mean by

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<v Speaker 1>one of your Russians? Fishman jumps in again. She's giving

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<v Speaker 1>an answer, and you then made a statement about what

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<v Speaker 1>was in the emails. She's entitled to answer to respond redacted. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>let's just ask a question, what did you mean when

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<v Speaker 1>you wrote one of your Russians? Answer again, he wasn't.

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't asking him to help me get a job, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I was asking him what he knew about the firm.

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<v Speaker 1>He then immediately jumps into what that he can negotiate

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<v Speaker 1>a compensation package, which I haven't even been offered. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I then deflect and say, trust me, this is

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<v Speaker 1>way below his in your pay grade to be negotiating.

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<v Speaker 1>And so he then says, there is the off chance

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<v Speaker 1>that Griffin might just be interest in a woman. I

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<v Speaker 1>understand him to be referring that he was interested in

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<v Speaker 1>a woman for the position of chief legal officer. I

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<v Speaker 1>found that offensive, So I make again a casual, somewhat

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<v Speaker 1>irreverent remark by saying, I ain't no affirmative action. So

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<v Speaker 1>I found it frankly insulting that someone would suggest that

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<v Speaker 1>I was being offered a job purely because I was

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<v Speaker 1>a woman. So then he writes back and says, I

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<v Speaker 1>meant romantically. So I think I think that he's suggesting

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<v Speaker 1>that somehow this person wants to date me and so again,

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<v Speaker 1>which is also offensive by the way. So again I

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<v Speaker 1>deflect and say, so you're going to trade one of

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<v Speaker 1>your Russians, meaning one of your adult Russian assistants, who

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to set up on a date. This has

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<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with sex. This, This is a confuse

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<v Speaker 1>back and forth, where again he was insinuating himself into

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<v Speaker 1>a way that he was going to make himself relevant

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<v Speaker 1>about negotiating compensation for a job offer that I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have and I wasn't going to take. Question So you

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<v Speaker 1>were just saying that you were making a joke, an

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<v Speaker 1>offhand joke about mister Ebstein trading one of his Russian

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<v Speaker 1>assistants to Ken Griffin in exchange for your conversation or

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<v Speaker 1>your compensation. Answer. Yeah, question, okay, answer, And as I said,

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<v Speaker 1>I regret emailing them. This is a joke that certainly

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't land very well today. Question all right, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to cover some ground that the majority covered. The way

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<v Speaker 1>that these formats go sometimes are questions overlap we'll be

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<v Speaker 1>conscious of that answer. Okay question. Let's go back to

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<v Speaker 1>that arrest and the phone call answer. Okay, okay, question.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Epstein called three people answer yes question. Two of

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<v Speaker 1>his lawyers answer yes question, and you answer yes question.

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<v Speaker 1>Why do you think he called you? Answer? I think

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<v Speaker 1>he called me because, not to be modest, but I

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<v Speaker 1>was the chairperson of the defense and investigations practice at

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<v Speaker 1>one of the largest most profitable law firms in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>I was well regarded as a defense attorney, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's why he called me, And obviously I knew him. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Earlier that year, you had written you quote I only

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<v Speaker 1>trust you. Later than that, he said, quote, I only

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<v Speaker 1>trust your advice. Mister fishman, I'm sorry. Are you reading

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<v Speaker 1>from the documents redacted? We'll introduce those documents right now

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<v Speaker 1>as exhibit E. Those documents are bates number EFTA zero

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<v Speaker 1>two six three four two two two and ef TA

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<v Speaker 1>zero two sixty three four seven five eight. Mister Fishman,

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<v Speaker 1>we just have one of them so far redacted front

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<v Speaker 1>and back. Rumler, Oh, I see fishman. Okay, question. There

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<v Speaker 1>are two different documents as one exhibit Fishman. Oh, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So they're not connected to each other in that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Redacted No Fishman, Okay. Question, So Jeffrey Epstein called you

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<v Speaker 1>because he trusted you? Is that what you're saying? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know whether he trusted me or not, but

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<v Speaker 1>I can say I can tell you I think I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a good lawyer who gives pretty straightforward advice. Question just

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<v Speaker 1>so I'm clear, did you give him any advice on

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<v Speaker 1>that call after he was arrested? Answer? No question? Did

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<v Speaker 1>he ask for your help? Answer again, I don't remember

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<v Speaker 1>much about that call other than it was extremely short.

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<v Speaker 1>He told me that he'd been arrested, and I said,

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<v Speaker 1>either you have to call your lawyer, or I assume

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<v Speaker 1>you will called your lawyer. Something I don't recall. Whether

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<v Speaker 1>you know he said that he out already or he

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<v Speaker 1>Hadn't you know this or that? Question Before mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>was arrested, had he communicated with you about being concerned

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<v Speaker 1>about new criminal charges being brought against him? Answer? No question,

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<v Speaker 1>not at all? Answer he had not. Question. Mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>was arrested at Teterborough Airport. He'd flown back from Paris

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<v Speaker 1>on a private jet. Had you known he was a board?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer I don't remember whether I knew. I do remember.

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<v Speaker 1>I do remember knowing that his arrest happened at Teterborough Airport.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know whether he told me that or whether

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<v Speaker 1>I came to learn that later. Question and before you

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<v Speaker 1>return from Paris? Did he ask you your advice about

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<v Speaker 1>whether it was safe to come back to the US? Answer? No,

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<v Speaker 1>question in twenty nineteen, did he ever ask your advice

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<v Speaker 1>about whether it was safe to travel to any foreign country? Answer? No,

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't ask my advice on those things. Question he

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<v Speaker 1>never asked about your advice on whether it was safe

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<v Speaker 1>to return to the US at any point in twenty nineteen?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer not that I remember. Question. Let's do exhibit F.

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<v Speaker 1>This is February twenty third, twenty nineteen email between you

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<v Speaker 1>and mister Epstein. Mister Epstein writes you, like preparing for

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<v Speaker 1>a hurricane. I'm focused on how to protect myself. Hunkered

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<v Speaker 1>down but vigilant, well prepared, et cetera. I very much

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate our friendship. In a response, you wrote, quote me too,

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<v Speaker 1>we will get you through the storm. Answer yes. Question

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<v Speaker 1>what was the quote storm? You told him you were

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<v Speaker 1>going to get him through? Answer that was a reference

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<v Speaker 1>to the media storm question the media. Two days before that,

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<v Speaker 1>a court ruling had put his two thousand and seven

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<v Speaker 1>non prosecution agreement and jeopardy in a case brought by

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<v Speaker 1>a number of his victims asserting their rights under the CVRA,

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<v Speaker 1>the Crime's Victims Act. You don't think this email had

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<v Speaker 1>any reference to that? Answer? I don't remember whether I

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<v Speaker 1>was certainly aware of that litigation in Florida, and I

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<v Speaker 1>was aware of the legal issues that were presented to

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<v Speaker 1>the court in that case. Yes, I don't know, But

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<v Speaker 1>this my best recollection is that this related to a

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<v Speaker 1>media storm. Question. And who did you mean when you

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<v Speaker 1>wrote wei, when you wrote we will get you through

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<v Speaker 1>the storm? Answer? I tend to use the term wei

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<v Speaker 1>in all sorts of different contexts. So I think I

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<v Speaker 1>was my effort to express, you know, some empathy and

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<v Speaker 1>support to him at the time. As I stated earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>what I understood all through the period of time when

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<v Speaker 1>I was interacting with him, up until the time that

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<v Speaker 1>the indictment was returned in July of twenty nineteen, I

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<v Speaker 1>understood that his conduct was predated my knowing him by

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<v Speaker 1>at least a decade, and that had been extensively investigated

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<v Speaker 1>by state and federal prosecutors and had been finally resolved.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in our system of justice, typically when someone

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<v Speaker 1>resolves a criminal case through a guilty plea and or

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, a separate agreement with the federal government,

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<v Speaker 1>and they comply with it and they otherwise fulfill all

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<v Speaker 1>the obligations, they accept responsibility, and they are entitled to

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<v Speaker 1>re enter society. That's the way it works, and so

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<v Speaker 1>that's what I believe the situation was with mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>for the entirety of the time that I was dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with them again, up until he was indicted in July

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty nineteen. And then the conduct described in that indictment,

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<v Speaker 1>even though it predated me knowing him by ten years,

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<v Speaker 1>describe conduct that was very different than I had understood

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<v Speaker 1>him to have been involved in. Question. So back to

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<v Speaker 1>the email, you said you understood the storm to be

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<v Speaker 1>referring to negative media. Answer, that's right. Question. Had you

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<v Speaker 1>been working with anyone else to help mister Epstein deal

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<v Speaker 1>with the negative media? Answer in mister Epstein's mom was

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<v Speaker 1>to ask a lot of different people for their opinions

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<v Speaker 1>on things. Question. That is very evident from the emails.

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<v Speaker 1>But what about were you working with anyone to help

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein deal with negative media answer? Do you mean

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<v Speaker 1>my communication specialist or someone like that? I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 1>what you mean. Question. You and mister Epstein much better

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<v Speaker 1>than the rest of us. You knew what you were

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<v Speaker 1>doing and who you were talking with much better than

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of us. So were you working with anyone

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<v Speaker 1>to help mister Epstein with his negative media? Answer? He

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<v Speaker 1>asked my opinion about media about you know, media inquiries,

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<v Speaker 1>media issues from time to time, and he was represented

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<v Speaker 1>by counsel, and the council was his legal advisor. Ultimately,

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<v Speaker 1>any decisions that were made about responses to media inquiries, etc.

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<v Speaker 1>Were going to be decided by his lawyer, not by me.

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<v Speaker 1>But as he did with lots of people, he asked

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<v Speaker 1>my point of view and my opinion on stuff all

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<v Speaker 1>the time, including relating to his media issues. And with

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<v Speaker 1>that will pause question. And I believe some other members

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<v Speaker 1>have questions, miss An. Sorry, sure, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 1>for being here today. As has been discussed through the

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<v Speaker 1>both hours so far, you maintained a friendship with Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>for years. What do you think your biggest mistake in

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<v Speaker 1>maintaining that relationship and staying so close to an known predator,

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<v Speaker 1>and why did you not cut ties with them sooner,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Rumler. I know him professionally and I was friendly

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<v Speaker 1>with him. In that context, we were not social friends.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't socialize with them. I didn't travel with them.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't go on vacation with them. I didn't go

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<v Speaker 1>to concerts with them. I didn't go out to dinner

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<v Speaker 1>with them. So when you say I had a long

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<v Speaker 1>standing friendship, I would characterize it a bit differently. Those

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<v Speaker 1>are the types of things that I do with my friends.

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<v Speaker 1>Mister Epstein and I shared a client and so I

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<v Speaker 1>had a lot of interaction with them relating to that,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course the interaction and just the natural, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>course of life went into other topics, including topics relating

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<v Speaker 1>to his historical conviction and media attention arising from that

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<v Speaker 1>historical conviction. The time when I was interacting with him,

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<v Speaker 1>he had a broad set of relationships with many prominent

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<v Speaker 1>people in the business community, in academia, in you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the arts and entertainment and politics, and it was very

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<v Speaker 1>natural for me to maintain good interaction with him given

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<v Speaker 1>what I was doing professionally at the time. And again

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<v Speaker 1>importantly as he was, you know, a primary advisor to

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<v Speaker 1>a client that had been referred to me in the

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<v Speaker 1>very you know, just a few weeks after I had

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<v Speaker 1>you know, gone back into private practice to restart my

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<v Speaker 1>private practice, and so of course with someone who I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to maintain a good relationship with, Missen. Sorry, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but even at the time he was a known predator.

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<v Speaker 1>You knew that you knew of his record. Obviously, ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>we know that Epstein and Maxwell, who I heard you

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<v Speaker 1>say you didn't know, personally committed systemic abuse against more

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<v Speaker 1>than one thousand young girls as well as boys and men.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess how do you begin to express remorse for

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<v Speaker 1>cultivating those ties, even if they were strictly professional and

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<v Speaker 1>not a per personal relationship as you just laid out,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Rumler, Well, I certainly didn't again know what we

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<v Speaker 1>know now about the nature and scope of his conduct.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the first and foremost. But it's very important to

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<v Speaker 1>understand that, you know, as a lawyer in private practice,

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<v Speaker 1>in my area of expertise, my primary area of expertise

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<v Speaker 1>was representing people who were either accused of crimes or

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<v Speaker 1>accused of other wrongdoing, so that was that was very

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<v Speaker 1>much part or sort of, you know, my daily existence,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will. I certainly feel terrible for anybody who

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<v Speaker 1>this man victimized. Miss Ann. Sorry, have you ever met

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<v Speaker 1>with any of the victims or survivors? Rumler? I have not,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Ann. Sorry? Is there a reason not to, Miss Rumler,

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<v Speaker 1>I have not been asked to, Miss Ann. Sorry? Okay. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>And as I said before, he lied to me. He

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<v Speaker 1>lied to me about his conduct. He lied to me,

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<v Speaker 1>he led me to believe. And again it wasn't just

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<v Speaker 1>that I believed him what he said, you know, on

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<v Speaker 1>its face, but what he said again was all very

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<v Speaker 1>consistent with the way the investigation in Florida by both

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<v Speaker 1>state and federal authorities had been resolved. Miss Ansorry, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, We're going to wrap up right here, and

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<v Speaker 1>in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to pick up where we left off. All the information

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<v Speaker 1>that goes with this episode can be found in the

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<v Speaker 1>description box.