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Speaker 1: Arrow is a great interviewer.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not just saying that because you could probably

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hear me.

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Speaker 1: You should see the check. You should see the check

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I write to him every month.

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Speaker 2: That's an interesting name.

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Speaker 3: I heard of that first name. That's an awesome first name.

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I've never heard that before.

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Speaker 1: It was created in Lewistown, Montana. My wife was putting

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together her first ever book and she needed a nightclub

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owner name, and she didn't want it to be kind

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of a Bob or a Bill or anything like that.

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So I sat there on the sofa and I said,

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how about Arrow A R R O W. And she said, no,

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I'll give it an E and then you can keep it.

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So but I had to beg her to use it

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for a radio name when I moved back to Billings, Montana,

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and she finally gave me permission.

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Speaker 2: You have to pay her rights. You have to pay

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a royalties every month for that.

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Speaker 1: That's the one thing that I feared when we when

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we separated, was I felt she was going to call

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the name back. And boy, I'm glad I didn't plant

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that inside her ear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Call man, You've got a serious subject here, and I

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would love to know how you are preparing for what's

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going to be happening because of the things that, you know,

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the assassination last there's a lot of cyber bullying going

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on as well as workplace bullying. How are you dealing

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with this because people are really horrified to say anything

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these days.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's it, you know, I'm I preface everything

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with saying I'm not into politics at all. I actually

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didn't even know who that person was when I initially heard,

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and then I saw he was on an episode of

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South Park that was ironically that when I google his name,

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that was the first thing that came up.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, well, who is this guy?

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Speaker 3: You know, whether you're a Democrat, Republican, independent, I think

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probably everyone agrees that, you know, your opinion should not

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lead to your death, whether you agree or disagree with

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someone you know in the same hold true with that.

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You know, Look, I deal with the worst of the worst,

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you know, the hunter Wars of the world that run

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revenge point sites where women are committing suicide because he

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wouldn't take their photos down. And you know, when you

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deal with someone like that, that is just so awful.

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I wouldn't even wish death upon someone like him. You know,

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I wouldn't wish it upon anybody, but you know, there's

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sometimes where I would think to myself, I can't believe

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this person is still alive, considering you know, how many

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people they are stalking and harassing and bullying, and sometimes

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we deal with stalkers who are doing this in real life,

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especially to women. It is a very difficult world for

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women and young girls to be on the Internet, that

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is for sure, because that is the highest rate of

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stalking and harassment that we deal with.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think that Bully Hunter on AA and E

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is the one thing that's going to open our eyes

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to be a little bit in a whole lot more

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safer when it comes to the Internet, because we do

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we jump on there as innocent, little baby lambs and

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then all of a sudden we're trapped in something we

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can't get out of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I think that the show is

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very important because not only are we going to you know,

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show different things that are occurring in how you know,

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take take this example of the show that's coming out

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Tuesday and Bullie Hunt. I deal with three victims who

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had their unauthorized images posted all over the web starting

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back in two thousand and seven. So can you imagine,

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you know, one of them is a school teacher, and

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can you imagine that you know, these pictures happened when

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she was eighteen. She tries to get them down, they

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wouldn't take them down. She then says, forget it. I'm

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going to move on with life. She becomes a school teacher,

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she gets her degree, and can you imagine how horrified

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it is for her to know that when the students'

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parents on day one of school google her name to

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see who the teacher is and the credentials, and the

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very first thing that they see are naked images of

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that teacher.

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Speaker 2: You know that that's something that.

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Speaker 3: She's been living with for decades until Bully Hunter came along,

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until we came along and took care of it and

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made sure that we not only you know, shine a

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light on the photographer and then the second perpetrator that

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nobody was aware of. But most important, I was able

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to get the pictures down of these victims, which was

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the most important.

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Speaker 2: Thing to me.

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Speaker 3: But it goes to show you when people think that

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things aren't crever on the Internet, usually that is one

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hundred percent incorrect.

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Speaker 1: I was just doing a study this past week about

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things on the internet, and they say that once you

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release it, you can never get rid of it. I mean,

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I'm anxious to find out how you can get in

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there and get rid of it. You physically have to

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go to the source, don't you in order for them

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to take it down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's different methods that he usually got all going

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into specifics, but you know, I just go about it

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a little bit different than law enforcement would because when

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they try and get certain pictures taken down, first they

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have to issue subpoenas and they have to wait for

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those results to come back, and then they have to

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get a court order and not to usually you know,

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I'll give me six months to a year where this

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victim is getting real victimized over and over again. Whereas

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with the methods that I use, usually that problem is

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resolved when no more than seventy two hours.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because yesterday even with the FBI director, Patel

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was asked about freedom of speech, you know, being on

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the web, being in person and stuff like that, and

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the way that they that you know, the the government

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asked him the question and he answered, You sat there

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and you thought, well, wait a second, why isn't there

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a certain area of freedom of speech and the lack

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of freedom of speech on the internet, Will it ever

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be protected? I mean, what are you seeing on your side?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's a good question because it's a fine line,

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isn't it. And you know, when does it turn into

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stalking and harassing or even threatening at that point?

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Speaker 2: And I work with the FBII daily.

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Speaker 3: I've been working with them for a long time on

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different cases that I come across where I feel like

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it's warranted for FBI intervention. And it's a great point

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that you bring up, because sometimes I will see something

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that I am one hundred percent convinced is pure hate speech,

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for example, or anti Semitic to the end degree, and

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I will hand that off to law enforcement and sometimes

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they will say, yeah, this is really bad, but it

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doesn't cross this XYZ threshold that we would need for

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a to pick up the case.

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Speaker 2: And prosecute it.

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Speaker 3: So it is definitely a fine line, and it's only

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getting worse. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever have one of those moments where you're

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doing the investigation and you just take off your glasses,

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you put your hands in your eyes, you go, holy crap.

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I don't know what I'm gonna do here. This one

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is bigger than.

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Speaker 2: Me, this case on A and E. I really you

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know why because.

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Speaker 3: Do you know how difficult it is to find someone

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from two decades ago that posted a bunch of information.

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And when I first started the case, the victims didn't

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know the first.

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Speaker 2: Or last name of the photographer. No one did. That's

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why I was a cold case with the police department.

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Speaker 3: All they knew was the first initial of the photographer's

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first name. So I had to go from billions of

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people in this world to try and find one person.

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And I remember just sitting back going, I'm not sure

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how I'm going to be able to pull this off,

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Like where am I even going to start to figure

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this out?

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Speaker 1: So he is the key answer here that trying to

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push stuff away. When you see something bad written about you,

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don't push it away, do something about it, because like

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you said with that school teacher, that in a moment's notice,

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it can come back and haunt you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you always want to do it you can.

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Speaker 3: And for that specific example, Google recently came out where

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they have a form where if there's an unauthorized image

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of yourself that's on the web however it got there.

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You fill out this form to request that the image

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be delisted and removed, and Google will take care of that.

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So then when you Google your name again, after like

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forty eight hours however long it takes them, the link

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is gone, the images are gone, and hopefully you can

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move on with your life.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: God, ten minutes with you is just not enough. And

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that's the reason why we are making a bully Hunter

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that my wife and I call it the daytime show.

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We have certain shows that we watch in the daytime

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because we'll just put it on the TV. And this

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is one of those shows where we'll sit there and binge,

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what binge? Watch the hell out of the show. And

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I can't thank you enough for putting this out there. Arrow, Yes,

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you have twenty minutes. Really, I love this. Hey, James,

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how fifty man, It's it's awesome. Jameson. When was the

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last time you and I had a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is great. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: You have a great tone. By the way, your voice

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is very just a great tone. Clearly you are made

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for radio.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the result of consultants and program directors that

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sat me in offices for several hours a day and

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said no, no quit sounding like that, no, do this,

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do this, you need to do this. And you know what,

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you know, what's kind of funny about about those people.

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You when you're going through the industry of radio, you

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hate them, you don't want to be around them. And

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then when you get into podcasting and you're doing it

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on your own, you're going, oh, they were right, Oh yeah,

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what about you? Because I mean you you've got a

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storytelling tone as well. How is it that you developed

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your style?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think, uh, I had no friends in

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high school, so I spent a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: Just in my own world and in my own head

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and in my own space.

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Speaker 3: And you know, as this is progressed and I've just

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dealt with I've dealt with thousands of case this is

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you know, my main company, Bullyville, has been around for

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twelve years now, and we shut down the three largest

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revenge point sites. So when that happened, you know when

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we took down is anyone up dot com for example?

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That got massive media attention as you can imagine. So,

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you know, spending so much time on interviews, I kind

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of honed my process. I just wish I had that

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same tone in my voice that you had.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with doctor James mcgibney

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coming up next. The name of the show on A

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and E Bully Hunter. We're back with doctor James mcgibney.

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Let me ask you a question here. Are you afraid

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when you go into a project, because I mean you're

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going into deep, dark situations where people come with anger

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and with revenge in their heart.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, bring it. You know there's no one

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I'm afraid. Well, Hey, I'm the United States Rain. I mean,

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I'm trained to deal with the worst of the worst situations.

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And you know, on top of that, I live in Texas,

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so you know, I feel pretty safe and secure here.

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But you know, I do deal with really bad people

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and I don't worry about me at all, But I

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do worry about the victims when I'm going after these perpetrators,

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because the last thing that I want to do is

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revictimize someone when my goal is supposed to be to

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help them.

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Speaker 1: Where did this come from? What did you hear? Were

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you at church? Where were you out in order to

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get this calling? Because you're doing something that why is

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it twenty twenty five, and you're the first bully hunter

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I've ever met.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's a great point because when I started to do

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research for this, I realized there is no one out

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there who is doing anything like this, especially on a

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platform as large as A and A. So first off,

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I was extremely grateful to Amy for even giving me

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the opportunity. But you know, per your point, now that

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the show's been announced, I am getting flooded with requests

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of all kinds.

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Speaker 2: Of different kinds of health.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if you saw the new

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show on Netflix called No Number?

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Speaker 2: Have you seen that? So you know, people were reaching

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out to me saying, can you believe it?

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I knew about that case when it first happened,

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because that is way more prevalent than you might think.

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I see a lot of times, and God bless them

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because I know what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 2: But you know, a mom will have.

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Speaker 3: Their sixteen year old daughter who is dating someone who

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you know the mother does not approve of because you

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know they're a kid who's got in a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 2: They're just on the wrong side of the tracks.

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Speaker 3: If you will, and they will basically try to find

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things about that kid to make sure that the daughter

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knows this is not a good kid. But that will

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sometimes backfire, and sometimes moms will take it way too far,

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And that story is obviously a prime example of just

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how psychotic some people can be, especially online. Will you

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imagine trying to get your own daughter to commit suicide?

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Speaker 1: No? No, oh my god, that's that's horrifying. Absolutely. But

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don't you think though, that when a mother is overbearing

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like that, that vicariously she's living through herself and not

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necessarily through her daughter, Because I mean I see that

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on over time at weddings and things to say, is

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this your daughter's wedding or is this your wedding? And

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please let me understand this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point, and that does happen quite

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a bit where they're just instead of living their own

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lives and trying to be a better parent, they are

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just like you said, trying to live vicarlessly through them.

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And then the destruction is obvious, especially in that stock

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You series that was crazy.

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Speaker 1: When you're unmasking a bully. I mean, in my mind,

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I'm thinking it's like an antill if you take one

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aunt out dig the hole, and oh my god, there's

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a whole entire village down there. There's got to be

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other bullies around. One bully always one hundred percent. I've

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actually never encountered it where there wasn't one. So that's

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your one hundred percent accurate on that, and we prepare

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for that. So I have certain people in different factions

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and different groups, if you will that help me with

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that type of stuff, because obviously I can't see that

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on my own, but I think that once I unmask one,

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you're you're right, the ants do come out of the hill,

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but they sturry away.

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Speaker 3: They don't come and try and bite me because they

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know there's a flamethrower ready to extinguish all of them.

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Literal flamethrower, not an actual, you know, flamethrower.

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Speaker 1: Confronting a bully online or a predator, I mean, first

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of all, I mean, are you calling them or are

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you just doing it on the internet, because I mean,

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you know, when somebody is writing emails or text messages

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back and forth, that's an interpretation that's not physical pitch,

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volume and tone. How is it that you're able to

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get inside this person's heart or ambition and say calm

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the hill down, dude, let's figure you out so that

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we can get this over with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, they're good point because basically, like so, for example,

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if I'm going after someone who I know is the

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worst of the worst, because those are the one people

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I go after, there is no sitting down with them

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and saying hey, would you please you know, stop doing

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this like hunting War for example, you know, trying to

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get someone to shut down their revenge COLN site just

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because you know, I think it's wrong.

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Speaker 2: Is it going to work with some one like that?

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Speaker 3: So I end up publicly going after them, so, you know,

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for example, on Instagram, and if you go and follow

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Bullyville on Instagram b U r O I v I

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l Oe verified account, you will see that, you know,

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I do go after people publicly because in my opinion,

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the court of public opinion is way more effective than

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an actual courtroom when you're going after bullies like this.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I cannot imagine how many armchair quarterbacks

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you're going to have attached to your show. Well, people

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that are going to identify with it, and they're going

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to go out there and they're going to get in

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touch with you because they're going to say, hey, doctor James,

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there's somebody I think you need to know about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, that really happens a lot from

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law enforcement, believe it or not.

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Speaker 2: You know, I get a lot, oh, I get.

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Speaker 3: A tremendous amount of cases from you know, from law

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enforcement where they're waiting for subpoena results and sometimes to

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get the subpoena results, and they're for IP addresses that

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are overseas because the person offuscated their their IP addressed

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to use a VPN.

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Speaker 2: A virtual private network.

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Speaker 3: Boy, I am sounding like a nerd right now, but

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you know, and that's the key for something like this

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is I love that process. I love having the ability

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to unmask someone like that while law enforcement is still

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trying to figure it out, and then be able to

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turn around the law enforcement and here you go, here's

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the evidence that you need, and then they're able to

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go to a prosecutor and bring the case forward. But

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I love people pulling people out of obscurity and I

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just love how shocked they get when it occurs. But

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the best part about it is I help the victim.

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And once you put that person on blast, that victim

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not only feels vindicated, they can move on with their lives,

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and that is the most important thing to me.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the most valuable lessons that I

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learned in cyber bullying was I mean, the Internet was

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brand new to us in the mid nineteen nineties inside

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the radio station control room, and when people would write

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to me really really horrible things, Well, I replied, and

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I didn't reply in a good way. Well, all of

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a sudden, now my boss knew how I replied, and

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that wasn't a great representation of the company. Well, they

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terminated me. And that's what people need to do is

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do do not reply. Take it to someone such as yourself,

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or just take it to a leader and figure out

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what you can do when people are being evil to you.

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Speaker 3: Best advice that is excellent advice because you will just

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you know, you flame that fire, right, and that's what

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they want. You know, if they're harassing you and they're

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stalking you and now you're replying, now they really have

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you where they want. And it's actually pretty scary when

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you do that because a seasoned stalker. If you reply

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to that email and you don't obfuscate your IP address

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so it's just on your home network, for example, that

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stocker now has your IP address because.

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Speaker 2: It's in the header of that email.

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Speaker 3: So once they have your IP address, if they're a

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really good hacker, they will then be able to get

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onto your home network and your machine and your files

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and Google Cone. They'd be able to get into your

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password credentials manager, they can get into your banking information.

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They can completely dismantle your life in a matter of minutes.

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Speaker 1: All right, big question here might be too personal. You

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can probably you know, label me a bully or something

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in which I am not with the glasses, with the beard,

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with the hat. I watch enough undercover boss? Is this

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your real look or you are undercover right now? No?

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Speaker 2: This is this is naz. This is the ugliest face.

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The ugliest face you're going to see all day is

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right in front of you.

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Speaker 1: But you know what I mean though, because I mean

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if if, if you're doing a zoom call with a

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cyber bully, I'm sure they're putting on disguises. What are

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you seeing?

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Speaker 2: You know? Another gig point.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of times they will not come on

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camera at all, like they all on zoom. I've done

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it before where they just won't show their face. But

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they don't realize that when they first connected. You know,

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maybe I allegedly figured out a way to turn on

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their camera real fast just to take a quick photo

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of them, and then they didn't even realize it because

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the light never came on their camera on their PC.

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This is all just allegedly, But you know, I always

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make sure that when I'm going after someone that I

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have a face to a name every single time.

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Speaker 1: You are such a cool nerd.

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Speaker 2: O, thank you.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Hopefully all those Kitchen high school will

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see this. The whole football.

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Speaker 2: Team was awful.

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Speaker 3: I used to deal with, Like, you know, the running

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back in high school was just the biggest bully on

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the planet, and I was curious. So about five years ago,

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I googled him and I felt so much better for myself.

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Speaker 2: He went from the star running back to being you know, just.

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Speaker 3: Completely out of shape, just the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 2: It made me feel so good.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've done that too, like our star

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quarterback at senior high. And I said, well, I wonder

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you know, every girl on the block loved him. Well,

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he's now bald and he's heavy, and I'm going, oh,

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thank god, I still have all my hair. Thank God,

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I didn't need to be the quarterback of that team. Well,

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you got to come back to the show, dude. The

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door is always going to be open.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate and I absolutely would all. There'll be more

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more shows.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure I love it.

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, appreciate you. I