Speaker 1: Arrow is a great interviewer.
Speaker 2: And I'm not just saying that because you could probably
hear me.
Speaker 1: You should see the check. You should see the check
I write to him every month.
Speaker 2: That's an interesting name.
Speaker 3: I heard of that first name. That's an awesome first name.
I've never heard that before.
Speaker 1: It was created in Lewistown, Montana. My wife was putting
together her first ever book and she needed a nightclub
owner name, and she didn't want it to be kind
of a Bob or a Bill or anything like that.
So I sat there on the sofa and I said,
how about Arrow A R R O W. And she said, no,
I'll give it an E and then you can keep it.
So but I had to beg her to use it
for a radio name when I moved back to Billings, Montana,
and she finally gave me permission.
Speaker 2: You have to pay her rights. You have to pay
a royalties every month for that.
Speaker 1: That's the one thing that I feared when we when
we separated, was I felt she was going to call
the name back. And boy, I'm glad I didn't plant
that inside her ear.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Call man, You've got a serious subject here, and I
would love to know how you are preparing for what's
going to be happening because of the things that, you know,
the assassination last there's a lot of cyber bullying going
on as well as workplace bullying. How are you dealing
with this because people are really horrified to say anything
these days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's it, you know, I'm I preface everything
with saying I'm not into politics at all. I actually
didn't even know who that person was when I initially heard,
and then I saw he was on an episode of
South Park that was ironically that when I google his name,
that was the first thing that came up.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, well, who is this guy?
Speaker 3: You know, whether you're a Democrat, Republican, independent, I think
probably everyone agrees that, you know, your opinion should not
lead to your death, whether you agree or disagree with
someone you know in the same hold true with that.
You know, Look, I deal with the worst of the worst,
you know, the hunter Wars of the world that run
revenge point sites where women are committing suicide because he
wouldn't take their photos down. And you know, when you
deal with someone like that, that is just so awful.
I wouldn't even wish death upon someone like him. You know,
I wouldn't wish it upon anybody, but you know, there's
sometimes where I would think to myself, I can't believe
this person is still alive, considering you know, how many
people they are stalking and harassing and bullying, and sometimes
we deal with stalkers who are doing this in real life,
especially to women. It is a very difficult world for
women and young girls to be on the Internet, that
is for sure, because that is the highest rate of
stalking and harassment that we deal with.
Speaker 1: Don't you think that Bully Hunter on AA and E
is the one thing that's going to open our eyes
to be a little bit in a whole lot more
safer when it comes to the Internet, because we do
we jump on there as innocent, little baby lambs and
then all of a sudden we're trapped in something we
can't get out of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I think that the show is
very important because not only are we going to you know,
show different things that are occurring in how you know,
take take this example of the show that's coming out
Tuesday and Bullie Hunt. I deal with three victims who
had their unauthorized images posted all over the web starting
back in two thousand and seven. So can you imagine,
you know, one of them is a school teacher, and
can you imagine that you know, these pictures happened when
she was eighteen. She tries to get them down, they
wouldn't take them down. She then says, forget it. I'm
going to move on with life. She becomes a school teacher,
she gets her degree, and can you imagine how horrified
it is for her to know that when the students'
parents on day one of school google her name to
see who the teacher is and the credentials, and the
very first thing that they see are naked images of
that teacher.
Speaker 2: You know that that's something that.
Speaker 3: She's been living with for decades until Bully Hunter came along,
until we came along and took care of it and
made sure that we not only you know, shine a
light on the photographer and then the second perpetrator that
nobody was aware of. But most important, I was able
to get the pictures down of these victims, which was
the most important.
Speaker 2: Thing to me.
Speaker 3: But it goes to show you when people think that
things aren't crever on the Internet, usually that is one
hundred percent incorrect.
Speaker 1: I was just doing a study this past week about
things on the internet, and they say that once you
release it, you can never get rid of it. I mean,
I'm anxious to find out how you can get in
there and get rid of it. You physically have to
go to the source, don't you in order for them
to take it down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's different methods that he usually got all going
into specifics, but you know, I just go about it
a little bit different than law enforcement would because when
they try and get certain pictures taken down, first they
have to issue subpoenas and they have to wait for
those results to come back, and then they have to
get a court order and not to usually you know,
I'll give me six months to a year where this
victim is getting real victimized over and over again. Whereas
with the methods that I use, usually that problem is
resolved when no more than seventy two hours.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because yesterday even with the FBI director, Patel
was asked about freedom of speech, you know, being on
the web, being in person and stuff like that, and
the way that they that you know, the the government
asked him the question and he answered, You sat there
and you thought, well, wait a second, why isn't there
a certain area of freedom of speech and the lack
of freedom of speech on the internet, Will it ever
be protected? I mean, what are you seeing on your side?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's a good question because it's a fine line,
isn't it. And you know, when does it turn into
stalking and harassing or even threatening at that point?
Speaker 2: And I work with the FBII daily.
Speaker 3: I've been working with them for a long time on
different cases that I come across where I feel like
it's warranted for FBI intervention. And it's a great point
that you bring up, because sometimes I will see something
that I am one hundred percent convinced is pure hate speech,
for example, or anti Semitic to the end degree, and
I will hand that off to law enforcement and sometimes
they will say, yeah, this is really bad, but it
doesn't cross this XYZ threshold that we would need for
a to pick up the case.
Speaker 2: And prosecute it.
Speaker 3: So it is definitely a fine line, and it's only
getting worse. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Do you ever have one of those moments where you're
doing the investigation and you just take off your glasses,
you put your hands in your eyes, you go, holy crap.
I don't know what I'm gonna do here. This one
is bigger than.
Speaker 2: Me, this case on A and E. I really you
know why because.
Speaker 3: Do you know how difficult it is to find someone
from two decades ago that posted a bunch of information.
And when I first started the case, the victims didn't
know the first.
Speaker 2: Or last name of the photographer. No one did. That's
why I was a cold case with the police department.
Speaker 3: All they knew was the first initial of the photographer's
first name. So I had to go from billions of
people in this world to try and find one person.
And I remember just sitting back going, I'm not sure
how I'm going to be able to pull this off,
Like where am I even going to start to figure
this out?
Speaker 1: So he is the key answer here that trying to
push stuff away. When you see something bad written about you,
don't push it away, do something about it, because like
you said with that school teacher, that in a moment's notice,
it can come back and haunt you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you always want to do it you can.
Speaker 3: And for that specific example, Google recently came out where
they have a form where if there's an unauthorized image
of yourself that's on the web however it got there.
You fill out this form to request that the image
be delisted and removed, and Google will take care of that.
So then when you Google your name again, after like
forty eight hours however long it takes them, the link
is gone, the images are gone, and hopefully you can
move on with your life.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: God, ten minutes with you is just not enough. And
that's the reason why we are making a bully Hunter
that my wife and I call it the daytime show.
We have certain shows that we watch in the daytime
because we'll just put it on the TV. And this
is one of those shows where we'll sit there and binge,
what binge? Watch the hell out of the show. And
I can't thank you enough for putting this out there. Arrow, Yes,
you have twenty minutes. Really, I love this. Hey, James,
how fifty man, It's it's awesome. Jameson. When was the
last time you and I had a conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is great. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: You have a great tone. By the way, your voice
is very just a great tone. Clearly you are made
for radio.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's it's the result of consultants and program directors that
sat me in offices for several hours a day and
said no, no quit sounding like that, no, do this,
do this, you need to do this. And you know what,
you know, what's kind of funny about about those people.
You when you're going through the industry of radio, you
hate them, you don't want to be around them. And
then when you get into podcasting and you're doing it
on your own, you're going, oh, they were right, Oh yeah,
what about you? Because I mean you you've got a
storytelling tone as well. How is it that you developed
your style?
Speaker 3: You know, I think, uh, I had no friends in
high school, so I spent a lot of time.
Speaker 2: Just in my own world and in my own head
and in my own space.
Speaker 3: And you know, as this is progressed and I've just
dealt with I've dealt with thousands of case this is
you know, my main company, Bullyville, has been around for
twelve years now, and we shut down the three largest
revenge point sites. So when that happened, you know when
we took down is anyone up dot com for example?
That got massive media attention as you can imagine. So,
you know, spending so much time on interviews, I kind
of honed my process. I just wish I had that
same tone in my voice that you had.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with doctor James mcgibney
coming up next. The name of the show on A
and E Bully Hunter. We're back with doctor James mcgibney.
Let me ask you a question here. Are you afraid
when you go into a project, because I mean you're
going into deep, dark situations where people come with anger
and with revenge in their heart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, bring it. You know there's no one
I'm afraid. Well, Hey, I'm the United States Rain. I mean,
I'm trained to deal with the worst of the worst situations.
And you know, on top of that, I live in Texas,
so you know, I feel pretty safe and secure here.
But you know, I do deal with really bad people
and I don't worry about me at all, But I
do worry about the victims when I'm going after these perpetrators,
because the last thing that I want to do is
revictimize someone when my goal is supposed to be to
help them.
Speaker 1: Where did this come from? What did you hear? Were
you at church? Where were you out in order to
get this calling? Because you're doing something that why is
it twenty twenty five, and you're the first bully hunter
I've ever met.
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that interesting.
Speaker 3: It's a great point because when I started to do
research for this, I realized there is no one out
there who is doing anything like this, especially on a
platform as large as A and A. So first off,
I was extremely grateful to Amy for even giving me
the opportunity. But you know, per your point, now that
the show's been announced, I am getting flooded with requests
of all kinds.
Speaker 2: Of different kinds of health.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if you saw the new
show on Netflix called No Number?
Speaker 2: Have you seen that? So you know, people were reaching
out to me saying, can you believe it?
Speaker 3: I'm like, I knew about that case when it first happened,
because that is way more prevalent than you might think.
I see a lot of times, and God bless them
because I know what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: But you know, a mom will have.
Speaker 3: Their sixteen year old daughter who is dating someone who
you know the mother does not approve of because you
know they're a kid who's got in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2: They're just on the wrong side of the tracks.
Speaker 3: If you will, and they will basically try to find
things about that kid to make sure that the daughter
knows this is not a good kid. But that will
sometimes backfire, and sometimes moms will take it way too far,
And that story is obviously a prime example of just
how psychotic some people can be, especially online. Will you
imagine trying to get your own daughter to commit suicide?
Speaker 1: No? No, oh my god, that's that's horrifying. Absolutely. But
don't you think though, that when a mother is overbearing
like that, that vicariously she's living through herself and not
necessarily through her daughter, Because I mean I see that
on over time at weddings and things to say, is
this your daughter's wedding or is this your wedding? And
please let me understand this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point, and that does happen quite
a bit where they're just instead of living their own
lives and trying to be a better parent, they are
just like you said, trying to live vicarlessly through them.
And then the destruction is obvious, especially in that stock
You series that was crazy.
Speaker 1: When you're unmasking a bully. I mean, in my mind,
I'm thinking it's like an antill if you take one
aunt out dig the hole, and oh my god, there's
a whole entire village down there. There's got to be
other bullies around. One bully always one hundred percent. I've
actually never encountered it where there wasn't one. So that's
your one hundred percent accurate on that, and we prepare
for that. So I have certain people in different factions
and different groups, if you will that help me with
that type of stuff, because obviously I can't see that
on my own, but I think that once I unmask one,
you're you're right, the ants do come out of the hill,
but they sturry away.
Speaker 3: They don't come and try and bite me because they
know there's a flamethrower ready to extinguish all of them.
Literal flamethrower, not an actual, you know, flamethrower.
Speaker 1: Confronting a bully online or a predator, I mean, first
of all, I mean, are you calling them or are
you just doing it on the internet, because I mean,
you know, when somebody is writing emails or text messages
back and forth, that's an interpretation that's not physical pitch,
volume and tone. How is it that you're able to
get inside this person's heart or ambition and say calm
the hill down, dude, let's figure you out so that
we can get this over with.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, they're good point because basically, like so, for example,
if I'm going after someone who I know is the
worst of the worst, because those are the one people
I go after, there is no sitting down with them
and saying hey, would you please you know, stop doing
this like hunting War for example, you know, trying to
get someone to shut down their revenge COLN site just
because you know, I think it's wrong.
Speaker 2: Is it going to work with some one like that?
Speaker 3: So I end up publicly going after them, so, you know,
for example, on Instagram, and if you go and follow
Bullyville on Instagram b U r O I v I
l Oe verified account, you will see that, you know,
I do go after people publicly because in my opinion,
the court of public opinion is way more effective than
an actual courtroom when you're going after bullies like this.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I cannot imagine how many armchair quarterbacks
you're going to have attached to your show. Well, people
that are going to identify with it, and they're going
to go out there and they're going to get in
touch with you because they're going to say, hey, doctor James,
there's somebody I think you need to know about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, that really happens a lot from
law enforcement, believe it or not.
Speaker 2: You know, I get a lot, oh, I get.
Speaker 3: A tremendous amount of cases from you know, from law
enforcement where they're waiting for subpoena results and sometimes to
get the subpoena results, and they're for IP addresses that
are overseas because the person offuscated their their IP addressed
to use a VPN.
Speaker 2: A virtual private network.
Speaker 3: Boy, I am sounding like a nerd right now, but
you know, and that's the key for something like this
is I love that process. I love having the ability
to unmask someone like that while law enforcement is still
trying to figure it out, and then be able to
turn around the law enforcement and here you go, here's
the evidence that you need, and then they're able to
go to a prosecutor and bring the case forward. But
I love people pulling people out of obscurity and I
just love how shocked they get when it occurs. But
the best part about it is I help the victim.
And once you put that person on blast, that victim
not only feels vindicated, they can move on with their lives,
and that is the most important thing to me.
Speaker 1: I think one of the most valuable lessons that I
learned in cyber bullying was I mean, the Internet was
brand new to us in the mid nineteen nineties inside
the radio station control room, and when people would write
to me really really horrible things, Well, I replied, and
I didn't reply in a good way. Well, all of
a sudden, now my boss knew how I replied, and
that wasn't a great representation of the company. Well, they
terminated me. And that's what people need to do is
do do not reply. Take it to someone such as yourself,
or just take it to a leader and figure out
what you can do when people are being evil to you.
Speaker 3: Best advice that is excellent advice because you will just
you know, you flame that fire, right, and that's what
they want. You know, if they're harassing you and they're
stalking you and now you're replying, now they really have
you where they want. And it's actually pretty scary when
you do that because a seasoned stalker. If you reply
to that email and you don't obfuscate your IP address
so it's just on your home network, for example, that
stocker now has your IP address because.
Speaker 2: It's in the header of that email.
Speaker 3: So once they have your IP address, if they're a
really good hacker, they will then be able to get
onto your home network and your machine and your files
and Google Cone. They'd be able to get into your
password credentials manager, they can get into your banking information.
They can completely dismantle your life in a matter of minutes.
Speaker 1: All right, big question here might be too personal. You
can probably you know, label me a bully or something
in which I am not with the glasses, with the beard,
with the hat. I watch enough undercover boss? Is this
your real look or you are undercover right now? No?
Speaker 2: This is this is naz. This is the ugliest face.
The ugliest face you're going to see all day is
right in front of you.
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean though, because I mean
if if, if you're doing a zoom call with a
cyber bully, I'm sure they're putting on disguises. What are
you seeing?
Speaker 2: You know? Another gig point.
Speaker 3: So a lot of times they will not come on
camera at all, like they all on zoom. I've done
it before where they just won't show their face. But
they don't realize that when they first connected. You know,
maybe I allegedly figured out a way to turn on
their camera real fast just to take a quick photo
of them, and then they didn't even realize it because
the light never came on their camera on their PC.
This is all just allegedly, But you know, I always
make sure that when I'm going after someone that I
have a face to a name every single time.
Speaker 1: You are such a cool nerd.
Speaker 2: O, thank you.
Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Hopefully all those Kitchen high school will
see this. The whole football.
Speaker 2: Team was awful.
Speaker 3: I used to deal with, Like, you know, the running
back in high school was just the biggest bully on
the planet, and I was curious. So about five years ago,
I googled him and I felt so much better for myself.
Speaker 2: He went from the star running back to being you know, just.
Speaker 3: Completely out of shape, just the worst of the worst.
Speaker 2: It made me feel so good.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've done that too, like our star
quarterback at senior high. And I said, well, I wonder
you know, every girl on the block loved him. Well,
he's now bald and he's heavy, and I'm going, oh,
thank god, I still have all my hair. Thank God,
I didn't need to be the quarterback of that team. Well,
you got to come back to the show, dude. The
door is always going to be open.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: I appreciate and I absolutely would all. There'll be more
more shows.
Speaker 2: I'm sure I love it.
Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, appreciate you. I