Speaker 1: Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy
Speaker 1: in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcast. Hey
Speaker 1: there are true believers. Andy Nelson here from the Marvel
Speaker 1: Movie Minute podcast with the rest of the team Mate right,
Speaker 1: Kyle Wilson, Rob Cobosco, and Matthew Fox. This is the
Speaker 1: podcast where we dissect the Marvel cinematic universe, one minute
Speaker 1: at a time, exploring every detail of this epic superhero franchise.
Speaker 2: In our season looking at iron Man three, we're gonna
Speaker 2: mix things up a bit.
Speaker 3: That's right, Rob and I are your guide, but instead
Speaker 3: of our usual minute by minute format, we dive into
Speaker 3: five minutes of the film in each weekly episode.
Speaker 2: It's a totally new approach, but one that still allows
Speaker 2: us to explore all the depth and detail that makes
Speaker 2: these movies so special, even if Ironman three isn't.
Speaker 4: All that's special.
Speaker 3: Hold on, that's where you're wrong. Extrememists Shane Black, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Would you like to look at the Mandarin and Maya Hanson.
Speaker 5: So, whether you're a die hard Marvel fan or just
Speaker 5: love deep dives into movies, there's something for everyone on
Speaker 5: Marvel Movie Minute. Suit up and join us on this
Speaker 5: epic audio adventure. You can find us at true story
Speaker 5: dot fm or by searching Marvel Movie Minute on your
Speaker 5: favorite podcatcher.
Speaker 1: Because in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, every minute is packed
Speaker 1: with excitement.
Speaker 3: Enough sid.
Speaker 6: Well, howdy folks. My name is Lester Ryan Clark, and
Speaker 6: I'm Keenandias, and we're the hosts of The Exorcist Minute,
Speaker 6: a show where we examine, extrapolate, and excavate the scariest
Speaker 6: movie of all time.
Speaker 7: Each episode covers a single minute of William Friedkin's nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy three horror masterpiece, The Exorcist.
Speaker 6: If you like deep dives, this show is the deepest.
Speaker 7: Did you know the film's iconic theme song, Jubular Bells
Speaker 7: wasn't written specifically for the movie, Or that.
Speaker 6: The nineteen seventy three audience members were throwing up and
Speaker 6: fainting in the theater before they ever got a glimpse
Speaker 6: of the demon.
Speaker 7: What about all the crazy onset mishaps, cast injuries the
Speaker 7: director of firing real guns?
Speaker 6: Ever, wonder where weedi boards came from or how they
Speaker 6: got their name. How about some history on the Catholic
Speaker 6: Church or the Roman rite of exorcism, or maybe we
Speaker 6: can tempt you with some juicy demonology. Lourder, did you
Speaker 6: know that Bazuzu had an ex wife? Find the Exorcist
Speaker 6: Minute on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to
Speaker 6: your shows, or at the Exorcist Minute dot com. Until
Speaker 6: next time, folks.
Speaker 7: The power of the Exorcist compels you.
Speaker 5: Happy New Year, Superhero Ethics fans. As it is the
Speaker 5: new year, we're just coming off the holidays, we have
Speaker 5: not recorded an episode for this week. We're giving you
Speaker 5: a rebroadcast of one of our favorite episodes on Echo,
Speaker 5: the TV show Amputation and Intersectionality. This one felt particularly
Speaker 5: appropriate since we just talked about Pray a few weeks
Speaker 5: ago and Native American representation in that movie and in
Speaker 5: other things, and Echo without being such an important factor
Speaker 5: as well, felt like a great thing to rebroadcast. We're
Speaker 5: still finishing up with the holidays. We'll be back to
Speaker 5: you with new episodes next week. For now, hope you
Speaker 5: enjoy this, Hope you had a very happy holiday, and
Speaker 5: looking forward to talking to you in the new year. Hello,
Speaker 5: and welcome to this special bonus episode of Superhero Ethics.
Speaker 5: Friends were, for the most part, keeping to our bi
Speaker 5: weekly schedule, but a show came out that is so
Speaker 5: important to me and that I really loved and I
Speaker 5: really wanted to watch and talk about. And my good
Speaker 5: friend Will Freeland, Marvel Comics expert extraordinaire who's been on
Speaker 5: this podcast a bunch of times, is back to talk
Speaker 5: with me, and we're probably gonna do a number of
Speaker 5: different episodes about this show because it has topics and
Speaker 5: characters that really just like Echo through all of the
Speaker 5: things that I love, and I promise that will be
Speaker 5: I can't say the last bad pun I'm gonna make
Speaker 5: about Echo, but probably one of them, hopefully it'll be
Speaker 5: the last one, because there's really so much for me
Speaker 5: to talk about here. Let's talk about Echo. It just
Speaker 5: came out. My friend Will Freeland has watched it as
Speaker 5: if I will welcome say a bit about who you are.
Speaker 4: Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 8: My name is Will Freeland. I'm all over the place
Speaker 8: on the internet as Silver Dreamers, Silver.
Speaker 4: Earth a Y.
Speaker 8: I also have a podcast called Hype is My Superpower.
Speaker 8: Me and Steve Storman, who's also been on the pod
Speaker 8: and also have had superhero ethics. On our pod, we
Speaker 8: talk about primarily majority of Marvel comics and whatever.
Speaker 4: Comics.
Speaker 8: It's it's kind of like a really fun book club
Speaker 8: just talk about commentary read each week.
Speaker 5: I love it. I love it. I love it. You
Speaker 5: mentioned that the book club aspect. We're actually be doing
Speaker 5: some book clubs here on the podcast that I'll talk
Speaker 5: about in just a minute. But let me actually just
Speaker 5: ask you first straight out, Will, what do you think
Speaker 5: of the show?
Speaker 4: I really I liked it. It was it was fun.
Speaker 8: It they added so much that's totally fine. It's not
Speaker 8: a it's not a problem. The very first scene of
Speaker 8: the show completely threw me off. I didn't know what
Speaker 8: was happening. It kind of had eternal vibes for me,
Speaker 8: like just what is it so confused? But overall, honestly,
Speaker 8: I had a great time with the show. The I
Speaker 8: don't think there's a single side character that I didn't like.
Speaker 8: The humor was well placed and well timed. It wasn't
Speaker 8: over the top, and each character kind of had their
Speaker 8: moment of like.
Speaker 4: It was captivating. I was binging this.
Speaker 8: Thing at like three in the morning and I was
Speaker 8: completely wide awake for it. And it's it's worth the
Speaker 8: five episode sit down.
Speaker 4: It was great.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it really is it really is. And for me
Speaker 5: as an amputee, obviously, this is a show that this
Speaker 5: is a character that really resonated with me that I
Speaker 5: was so excited about that I was so nervous about
Speaker 5: and it really hit on every cylinder. And I'm going
Speaker 5: to talk about that a lot particularly, and it has
Speaker 5: meant so much to me that I was able to
Speaker 5: kind of take this feeling of, you know, I'm an amputee,
Speaker 5: I'm seeing my self on screen. I'm seeing the issues
Speaker 5: I go with from like the larger stuff, but just
Speaker 5: the moment to moment stuff that most people don't think about.
Speaker 5: I'm seeing that on screen, and then they're gonna go
Speaker 5: online and hear you know, from deaf people, from Native people,
Speaker 5: from women, from so many others who saw themselves in this.
Speaker 5: In many ways, I feel like this is a kind
Speaker 5: of a masterclass on intersectionality in terms of what we
Speaker 5: got in this show, and we'll talk about all that,
Speaker 5: but also it was I've seen shows that try to
Speaker 5: be like, we're going to be social justice and we're
Speaker 5: gonna check this box and this box and this box,
Speaker 5: and they forget to actually be a good show. And
Speaker 5: this isn't that, Like from the moment, like. The fight
Speaker 5: scenes are very well choreographed, the history and background is
Speaker 5: interially done, all of the characters are engaging. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: just everything about it. And I will admit I've had
Speaker 5: some superhero fatigue recently, and even some I know, hard
Speaker 5: to say to some folks out there, but some Marvel fatigue.
Speaker 5: I haven't watched it Invasion, I haven't watched Loki season two.
Speaker 5: Some of the other stuff that i'd seen was the
Speaker 5: I've heard Loki season two is pretty good. I just
Speaker 5: didn't like Look season one. That's a whole other matter.
Speaker 5: But uh yeah, I just more than anything, I think
Speaker 5: I walked away from this thinking the Marvel Netflix universe
Speaker 5: is back, you know, not that it's quite the same.
Speaker 5: And I we can talk about continuity in a minute,
Speaker 5: because I think they made it pretty clear that this
Speaker 5: is not the same continuity as the Marvel Netflix universe,
Speaker 5: but the tone of it. Kingpin felt much more like
Speaker 5: Kingpin than he did in the Hawkeye show freaking as
Speaker 5: Daredevil was back, which I granted from a small scene,
Speaker 5: but I had no idea. Yeah, this just it felt
Speaker 5: like Marvel, like the spirit of the Marvel MC the
Speaker 5: Netflix MCU was back.
Speaker 4: I absolutely agree.
Speaker 8: I it's funny because and you know, the first like
Speaker 8: twenty minutes of the first episode is the one that
Speaker 8: has all of the like cameos outside of KINGVN has
Speaker 8: like the cameos and like the flashbacks and like the cool, fun.
Speaker 4: Holy crap and Starry Double kind of stuff.
Speaker 8: And Yep, that is exactly what I've been saying Marvel's
Speaker 8: never gonna do. And so I'm so happy that they
Speaker 8: did it and just straight up proved it. It's like
Speaker 8: they were listening to an episode of my podcast and
Speaker 8: they were just like, oh, oh, he.
Speaker 4: Thinks that okay.
Speaker 8: Because I've always said, I've always said that it's too expensive.
Speaker 8: There's no way they're going to spend the money on
Speaker 8: random cameo appearances for one scene like that to make
Speaker 8: the universe actually feel connected in each individual show.
Speaker 4: There's no way they're going to do that. But they did.
Speaker 4: They did.
Speaker 8: They brought in Charlie Cox, they did the I mean,
Speaker 8: it's just showing the same scene from Hawkeye, but they
Speaker 8: had a scene with Jeremy Renner and or a handful
Speaker 8: of scenes with Jeremy Renner in it.
Speaker 4: They they you know, at the end, they had rocks
Speaker 4: on On the gas station.
Speaker 8: Like they had these bigger universe name drops that for
Speaker 8: rocks On Song can cost him anything, but they can
Speaker 8: have like, oh, in this world, there are other things
Speaker 8: like having Kingpin invest in like this amazing tech for
Speaker 8: for Maya to use and then for healing his eye.
Speaker 8: Like God, like, you don't think of you think of Kingpin.
Speaker 8: You think money, crime, mob boss type stuff. You don't
Speaker 8: think of him having the money to go and spend
Speaker 8: on tech. And the fact that they had that, and
Speaker 8: it's just like it doesn't even they don't have to
Speaker 8: explain that this epatch with the blue light on it
Speaker 8: is superhealing and all that kind of stuff and and
Speaker 8: and like that's the world of the MCU and Marvel
Speaker 8: that I want to live in. Tony Stark is the
Speaker 8: only one that flexes tech. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 8: an Iron Man or a Spider Man show to have
Speaker 8: tech that like shows the world is advancing in ways
Speaker 8: that we just don't in ours.
Speaker 4: And it's ah so much fun. I loved it.
Speaker 5: I'm so glad you brought that up because it hits
Speaker 5: for me in two very different ways. One is about
Speaker 5: Wilson Fisk that I want to talk about because to me,
Speaker 5: that scene is essential for understanding Fisk, but also because
Speaker 5: for me, and I want to be clear, I am
Speaker 5: a disabled person, both some mental stuff but also particularly physical.
Speaker 5: In terms of my my amputation, deafness is not I
Speaker 5: am not deaf or heart of hearing. And while there's
Speaker 5: a lot of overlap between deafness and disability, a lot
Speaker 5: with a lot of deaf folks don't say that deafness
Speaker 5: is disability. So I'm speaking about how that scene hit
Speaker 5: me as a disabled person. I'm not deaf, so so
Speaker 5: take all this with a grain of salt, and if
Speaker 5: deaf people have very different feelings about this, I'm happy
Speaker 5: to listen to that. But for me, that scene made
Speaker 5: me cry so much. First for all the king the
Speaker 5: Kingpin reasons, Wilson Fisk reasons, but also because you've probably
Speaker 5: heard me talk about this. A lot of my fans
Speaker 5: have heard me talk about this. I and a lot
Speaker 5: of other disabled people are often very frustrated by if
Speaker 5: we appear in science fiction or fantasy, yes the character
Speaker 5: might be disabled, but very quickly the science, the crazy science, technology,
Speaker 5: or the magic is able to basically erase the disability
Speaker 5: to a point where like and that's an interesting story idea,
Speaker 5: But then at that point, the character is no longer someone,
Speaker 5: that that person's life is no longer something that like
Speaker 5: disabled folks relate to in any way, and or like
Speaker 5: many of us. Again, I'm trying to speak not in generalities,
Speaker 5: but just these ideas I'm talking about are widely understood
Speaker 5: by a lot of other folks in these communities, and
Speaker 5: so like to have it where there is this incredible technology,
Speaker 5: but it's not technology to make her hearing, because you know,
Speaker 5: if you remember, even in Hawkeye, she actually says to
Speaker 5: the Hawkeye like that he re lies too much on technology,
Speaker 5: and that's kind of a critique he has, and that
Speaker 5: she clearly like she is deaf, that's who she is.
Speaker 5: She doesn't want to fix that necessarily. So what the
Speaker 5: technology does is to allow him to better communicate with
Speaker 5: her using sign language. And it is clearly like sci
Speaker 5: fi technology, at least as far as I know, it's
Speaker 5: possible that someone's actually coming pretty close to inventing that already,
Speaker 5: and if they haven't, you know, go ahead and do it,
Speaker 5: because it certainly seems like it would be possible. But
Speaker 5: so just seeing that moment to me, that felt like
Speaker 5: people who understand these concerns and issues are very involved
Speaker 5: in making this show because it was you know it
Speaker 5: to me, it's kind of like the difference between technology
Speaker 5: that would fix a person and it like fixes a
Speaker 5: word of using a huge parentheses, because that's part of
Speaker 5: the point is that it's not people don't need to
Speaker 5: be fixed, but like you know, you could give someone like, oh, hey,
Speaker 5: your proalysis is fixed, you're no longer in a wheelchair,
Speaker 5: or like if they gave them like their wheelchair had
Speaker 5: nanotech so that whenever they were at a step, they
Speaker 5: could like instantly generate a ramp. You know, like that
Speaker 5: would be like awesome science fiction technology that's about still
Speaker 5: helping a person who has the disabilities. So it just
Speaker 5: that moment hit to me on that part. At least
Speaker 5: I'll talk about it wasn't fisk thing in a minute,
Speaker 5: but you just kind of respond. It was just like
Speaker 5: every time I complain about like Yoda dropping the cane
Speaker 5: and bouncing around and all this kind of stuff, or
Speaker 5: like Avatar and all the ableism of that, like this
Speaker 5: is what I mean, this is what we want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was phenomenal.
Speaker 8: I like I thought it was just such a cool
Speaker 8: application of technology. And I love that they played it
Speaker 8: in a way that you could kind of hear the
Speaker 8: translation in in Fisk's ear as it was pointing.
Speaker 4: I loved that. And then like.
Speaker 8: As soon as Maya called him out and I was
Speaker 8: just like, you never even bothered to learn asl to
Speaker 8: communicate with me. It made me feel so guilty for
Speaker 8: being so excited about having this technology. And I was like, wait, no,
Speaker 8: there literally is and has been a way for them
Speaker 8: to communicate.
Speaker 4: He just never put in the f ah damn oh no.
Speaker 8: And my part of the problem it was it just
Speaker 8: it spiraled for a good like thirty seconds while you're
Speaker 8: trying to watch the show, and I was like, man.
Speaker 4: That is really well done.
Speaker 8: I feel like they they pulled in and again like
Speaker 8: as you're saying, Okay, I am not the I'm not
Speaker 8: disabled physically, and I like, I don't you know, I'm
Speaker 8: not hard of hearing other than like just have a
Speaker 8: thick skull.
Speaker 5: But like.
Speaker 4: So, I don't know what it's like to be on
Speaker 4: the other side of that conversation.
Speaker 8: And from my perspective, it seemed like and you've been
Speaker 8: saying this a couple of times, but like it's it
Speaker 8: seemed like they really put in the effort to really
Speaker 8: tell this story from Maya's perspective as a deaf person,
Speaker 8: and like.
Speaker 4: You have your classic.
Speaker 8: I was a child, you shouldn't have let me go,
Speaker 8: But then you have the extended family being like I
Speaker 8: was also in pain, like and there's that classic storytelling
Speaker 8: of like whose pain was greater, And the fact that
Speaker 8: we never actually had a conversation means that you feel
Speaker 8: like I was never hurting. But then there's these other
Speaker 8: conversations and story beats where only an amputee or a
Speaker 8: deaf person would have this kind of conversation with people,
Speaker 8: and that they like they were able to do it
Speaker 8: and weave it into the storytelling. It felt like seamlessly.
Speaker 8: That was that was so impressive to watch as an
Speaker 8: able bodied hearing person.
Speaker 4: That was that I loved it. It was great.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, and I really love what you brought up
Speaker 5: though about how she is like wait, you know you
Speaker 5: could see her being like, oh my god, I'm so impressed,
Speaker 5: and so you know, honored that you've done. You've made
Speaker 5: all this effort to make all this technology, although it's
Speaker 5: also very possible he's just like you know, he just
Speaker 5: you know, called up his friends at rocks On and said, hey,
Speaker 5: sure do this, you know or whatever. But also she called,
Speaker 5: like you said, she calls him out and says, but
Speaker 5: you haven't done the work. And I thought that was
Speaker 5: to me, that was a moment that said so much
Speaker 5: about Wilson Fisk, because what I noticed was, I mean
Speaker 5: to kind of go through a couple of points here
Speaker 5: to as a larger thing, but let me start with
Speaker 5: this and see if you saw it the same way.
Speaker 5: I felt like the show made it very very clear
Speaker 5: without any doubt that yes, he is manipulating her, Yes
Speaker 5: he is using her as a tool in his army,
Speaker 5: but his feeling of familial love towards her and like
Speaker 5: treating her like a daughter is one hundred percent real, absolutely,
Speaker 5: And the because one of the things I noticed was that,
Speaker 5: like the first scene where we see them kind of
Speaker 5: really interacting as the story goes forward, not that's more
Speaker 5: flashbacky stuff where she's gotten in trouble with the law.
Speaker 5: I think she was like stealing a motorcycle or something
Speaker 5: and he shows up just like you know, it's kind
Speaker 5: of like, you know, he hears about her in trouble,
Speaker 5: and he goes to her in the middle of the night,
Speaker 5: and he has with him an ASL interpreter who clearly
Speaker 5: he to some extent, trusts not to talk about the
Speaker 5: things that they're going to say now clearly doesn't trust entirely.
Speaker 5: As we learn, she does not come to a good end.
Speaker 5: But part of what that told me was that he
Speaker 5: had already thought about this, and like, I don't think
Speaker 5: that he is the It's not that he said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: she's deaf, but I'm gonna forget about that and not
Speaker 5: really care much about it. I think he very clearly
Speaker 5: had gone to great lengths to say, a member of
Speaker 5: my family is deaf. I want to make sure that
Speaker 5: I'm able to deal with that and to communicate with
Speaker 5: that at all times. But also just the way he
Speaker 5: approaches the world is not I am going to like
Speaker 5: take time away and sit in a classroom and learn,
Speaker 5: but I'm going to throw money at this problem and
Speaker 5: fix it. Yeah, And to me, like, you know more
Speaker 5: about the character in comics, but from what I've seen
Speaker 5: in just the MCU shows, that felt like a perfect
Speaker 5: illustration of who Fisk is.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, I mean, so the MCU for all of
Speaker 8: its grandiosness is much more down to earth than the comics. Yeah,
Speaker 8: and and the way that they go about problem solving,
Speaker 8: even though it is otherworldly, sometimes is a lot more practical.
Speaker 8: And the where I'm going with this is literally just
Speaker 8: yesterday I had a conversation with my wife about, Oh,
Speaker 8: if we had money, what we could throw Like there
Speaker 8: there are problems in our lives that you can just
Speaker 8: throw money at and you don't have to worry about it,
Speaker 8: Like plumbing. I don't know plumbing. I'm not going to
Speaker 8: put in the work to learn plumbing. I'm gonna throw
Speaker 8: some money at a plumber to go and do that
Speaker 8: for me, right, uh, And so like Fisks and then
Speaker 8: and that's another freaking parallel between me and Fisk that
Speaker 8: it's stressing me out. But like he's he saw you know,
Speaker 8: he he adopted this young girl who is deaf in
Speaker 8: an amputee and instead of learning how to asl he
Speaker 8: throws money at the situation, gets an interpreter, and then
Speaker 8: and down the line he has more money, and.
Speaker 4: So what more money? What can more money do? Oh?
Speaker 8: Throwing an interpretation contact lens and and a camera and
Speaker 8: a translator in his ear so he doesn't have to put.
Speaker 5: In the work.
Speaker 8: Like it's it's what what can what problems can I
Speaker 8: solve with money? So I can focus on the things
Speaker 8: I can't be solved with money. That's how I how
Speaker 8: I like to see the world. And apparently that's how
Speaker 8: a Fisk sees the world and that's not how our
Speaker 8: hero say sees the world. And and that's a problem
Speaker 8: for me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I get well, I'm going to question the
Speaker 5: use of the word hero, which is something we'll get
Speaker 5: to in a bit sure podcast, But like, to me,
Speaker 5: I also think about the scene that you know, when
Speaker 5: she's a young girl and he takes her and or
Speaker 5: he coming to pick her up from school and she
Speaker 5: wants to buy ice cream and the ice cream guy
Speaker 5: is like, you know, really rude to her and able
Speaker 5: list and and you know clearly like really hurts her.
Speaker 5: That scene was one of like the thing about Fisk is,
Speaker 5: particularly the Daredevil show, particularly in season one, it's like
Speaker 5: fifty one percent a Daredevil origin show and forty nine
Speaker 5: percent of Wilson Fisk origin show. A kingpin because you
Speaker 5: met Vincentinafrio manages to make him so incredibly compelling and
Speaker 5: so incredibly sympathetic in ways where you're like, there are
Speaker 5: times in my life where I feel red hot anger
Speaker 5: and there's a part of me that wants to use
Speaker 5: my fists and go out and fix the problem that
Speaker 5: I'm seeing. And A I'm not very good at fighting,
Speaker 5: so it'd be a very bad idea. But also like
Speaker 5: I just think morally, that's not the right thing to do.
Speaker 5: And like so when he gets out of that limo
Speaker 5: and it was just shot so perfectly to build the
Speaker 5: suspense and he starts walking towards that ice cream guy,
Speaker 5: I had this really uncomfortable mis of dread and exhilaration
Speaker 5: because I was so afraid of what he was going
Speaker 5: to do to that ice cream guy, and I so
Speaker 5: badly wanted to see him utterly kick the ass of
Speaker 5: the ice cream guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 5: And then it's like.
Speaker 8: It also the way that they did that scene where
Speaker 8: he was so in touch with his emotions, it felt like, oh,
Speaker 8: this is early Kingpin, Like you know, like by the
Speaker 8: time we get to like Daredevil's season three that I
Speaker 8: guess there's two there's two ways to think about it. One,
Speaker 8: it's like there's the experienced Kingpin who he's.
Speaker 4: Going to.
Speaker 8: Have more control of his emotions to deal with situations
Speaker 8: like that, because you only ever see outburst quote unquote
Speaker 8: outbursts to that degree seldom, seldomly in the later seasons. However,
Speaker 8: it could also be said that this is a king then,
Speaker 8: who is in control of his emotions until family gets
Speaker 8: brought gets involved, because when Matt starts messing up or
Speaker 8: poking fisk with about Vanessa and stuff, that's when he
Speaker 8: loses it. So you see someone who is belittling and
Speaker 8: disrespecting his chosen family, Yeah, that's gonna that's gonna bubble
Speaker 8: up also, But that scene was it didn't go where.
Speaker 4: I thought it was gonna go. Like I thought he
Speaker 4: was either just going to he was going to.
Speaker 8: Make a statement to him, say something, or he was
Speaker 8: going to actually just kill the guy. And then for
Speaker 8: him to do that like I want to keep Maya
Speaker 8: relatively innocent and make a phone call and try to
Speaker 8: replace it and then have her show up and just
Speaker 8: that was that that's her origin, Like that's her like
Speaker 8: King Queen pin origin story. She goes and kicks them,
Speaker 8: why is with her with her with her foot and
Speaker 8: this is like, oh my god, this.
Speaker 5: Is literally I was watching it with one of my
Speaker 5: partners and as she goes over, like my partner says,
Speaker 5: this is way too dark for Disney, but I really
Speaker 5: hope she kicks the guy too. But I was like,
Speaker 5: that's so, because you're right, it's her origin, it's her
Speaker 5: And I think part of that also is, like, you
Speaker 5: know her, like her father had kind of like exposed
Speaker 5: her to some of that. But yeah, and I want
Speaker 5: to talk a lot about her character to be sure,
Speaker 5: but just because we started with the Kingpin, for me,
Speaker 5: it's that, like, I think you're right, it's that he's
Speaker 5: upset that he sees her disrespected, but more even more so,
Speaker 5: I think it's that he sees the pain on her face.
Speaker 5: And you know, obviously this is a daughter, not a
Speaker 5: mother figure. But I think it really highlights that for Fisk,
Speaker 5: his central motivation is protection. He wants to protect the
Speaker 5: people he loves and cares about, which then becomes and
Speaker 5: and then we see in that brilliant end scene, becomes
Speaker 5: all the people of his city, you know, And that's
Speaker 5: a to me. That's also where him and Daredevil are
Speaker 5: so is like, you know, you always hear about the
Speaker 5: superhero being like, this is my city, and you can't
Speaker 5: do this in my city. And I think that's Fisks
Speaker 5: motivation as well. Oh you can't do you can't do
Speaker 5: this to my mother, you can't do this to my daughter,
Speaker 5: you can't do this to my city.
Speaker 4: Oh man. Yeah, that end credit scene is impressive.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, last thing about that, And I want to say,
Speaker 5: I want to say, this is the theory that I have,
Speaker 5: and I'm wondering if you're feeling the same for me.
Speaker 5: One thing they also did in this is to say, yes,
Speaker 5: these are the same characters, but this is a different continuity,
Speaker 5: this particular universe, and it may well be that, like
Speaker 5: they've added now the other MCU Netflix shows to the
Speaker 5: official timeline on Disney Plus, so it may be that
Speaker 5: they're saying that, like in a different continuity, because remember
Speaker 5: we're in the multiverse, so that all those other shows
Speaker 5: are cannon just not in this universe, but that this
Speaker 5: particular Wilson, Fisk and Daredel we were watching are not
Speaker 5: the exact same ones from the other one. And and
Speaker 5: the things that really stood out to me about that
Speaker 5: were it's very brief, but they show him looking at
Speaker 5: that white picture, the one that he buys in Netflix
Speaker 5: to when he meets Vanessa. That one was horizontal. This
Speaker 5: one is vertical, and it's a little bit different, and
Speaker 5: it's just there's just such an interesting change that felt
Speaker 5: to me like it was very specifically being like, no,
Speaker 5: this is not the same, Yeah, exactly same but different. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And then again the timing of it, he is now
Speaker 5: doing his mayoral run when it already happened in those Uh,
Speaker 5: to me, it just was like, yeah, this is this
Speaker 5: is this is a different continuity.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, absolutely. Oh man, so.
Speaker 5: Go go ahead.
Speaker 8: Oh no, I'm just I'm just thinking, just thinking about
Speaker 8: the characters.
Speaker 4: In the show.
Speaker 8: They they did a lot with echo, most of them.
Speaker 8: So I guess to fulfill my role because you bring
Speaker 8: me on to these comic based shows to talk about
Speaker 8: the difference between the show and the comic, Like ninety
Speaker 8: eight percent of this is original and new in the comics,
Speaker 8: So specifically, just from the very beginning, Maya is a Choctaw.
Speaker 4: Tribe is from the Chocta Chalk. I think it's Chocta
Speaker 4: is how do you spell it c h O c
Speaker 4: t a W.
Speaker 8: In the comics, she's Cheyenne, And I think it's just
Speaker 8: because of where they decided to set the the show.
Speaker 4: That's not a big deal.
Speaker 8: She's not necessarily very in touch with her heritage in
Speaker 8: the comics, and so what tribe she's a part of,
Speaker 8: what tribe she's from, is not a big deal. The
Speaker 8: uh uh, this that like spiral power that has been
Speaker 8: passed down through her lineage.
Speaker 4: That's not a thing. In the comics.
Speaker 8: She has photographic reflexes, just like task Master, and that's
Speaker 8: her only power. And they get around she is deaf
Speaker 8: in the comics. She's not amputee in the comics, but
Speaker 8: she is deaf. But she's such a good lip reader
Speaker 8: that they just kind of ignore that as much as
Speaker 8: they want. And so, like, if someone is talking to
Speaker 8: her in a mask, she can't understand what they're saying.
Speaker 4: What they're saying, but like r and.
Speaker 8: So like that's kind of the only time it really
Speaker 8: comes up is when people are looking away from her
Speaker 8: and trying to talk to her, and she's like and
Speaker 8: so she speaks, so she's you know, she says, I
Speaker 8: can't understand what you're saying.
Speaker 4: You have to look at me. But so as far
Speaker 4: as she can speak in the yeah, yeah.
Speaker 8: And so like h, it's just like a oh hey,
Speaker 8: by the way, kind of a thing that doesn't get
Speaker 8: it's it's not part of her identity or how people
Speaker 8: interact with her much, just because it's such a non
Speaker 8: big deal because she's such so good at lip reading,
Speaker 8: which is kind of weird.
Speaker 4: But it is what it is. Uh.
Speaker 8: Just most recently in the comics, she became a host
Speaker 8: of the Phoenix Horse, which is a whole other thing.
Speaker 8: And she hasn't done a whole she's been she's a
Speaker 8: side character. She's only been on She's only been a
Speaker 8: title character I think twice most recently, like this last
Speaker 8: year was Daredevil, an Echo and I and she's been
Speaker 8: like she's been an Avengers, but on the New Avengers,
Speaker 8: you know, she was involved in Secret and Asian and
Speaker 8: the other stuff, but she's she doesn't have a whole
Speaker 8: lot of like primary screen time, and so they kind
Speaker 8: of had they kind of had a blank slate to
Speaker 8: work with for the MCU and bringing her in, and yeah,
Speaker 8: everything they've done so far has been fantastic, but it's
Speaker 8: all very original, and I don't I don't even think
Speaker 8: there's a character reference for them to pull from as
Speaker 8: far as like this chocked out legacy and stuff that
Speaker 8: that is completely original to the best of my knowledge.
Speaker 5: I mean what my understanding is that it is original
Speaker 5: to the MCU, that it is not invented from Hahul Cloth,
Speaker 5: it is actual chalk Tall legend and things like that,
Speaker 5: and and to that extent, I am glad in some
Speaker 5: ways that this is new, because the idea of stan
Speaker 5: Lee or someone like that doing their version of the
Speaker 5: character pere much later. But like stan Lee doing chalk
Speaker 5: Taw Legends in the nineteen seventies does not strike me
Speaker 5: as a great idea.
Speaker 8: Oh god, yeah, oh yeah, Mike got introduced in the
Speaker 8: late late nineties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's a pretty good character. Yeah.
Speaker 5: But like when I started the show and it starts
Speaker 5: with this beautiful depiction of the chalk Taw creation myth,
Speaker 5: for at least the creation myth of humans, I literally
Speaker 5: stopped the show to make sure I was watching the
Speaker 5: same thing because with my thought that was kind of
Speaker 5: be like referencing Netflix MCU and that it was based
Speaker 5: in Hawkeye, which was a very kind of like low
Speaker 5: powered show, like everyone there is trained in ways, but
Speaker 5: I don't think anyone in Hawkeye really has superpowers such
Speaker 5: as we talk about them, and so to start with
Speaker 5: like super mystical thing, I was like, did I watch
Speaker 5: start the wrong thing or something? Turned out obviously it
Speaker 5: did not, And I wound up really loving it because
Speaker 5: you said you got kind of the Eternals vibe from it.
Speaker 5: I admit I watched Eternals once and have now mostly
Speaker 5: blanked out of my brain, so it's very possible the same.
Speaker 5: What I got, though, was some echoes of the I'm
Speaker 5: gonna say Atlantean because I don't remember the pronunciation of
Speaker 5: the I think Adalon the Native the group that is
Speaker 5: referred to as Atlanteans in Black Panther Two, who are
Speaker 5: also based very much in Native indigenous communities, but of
Speaker 5: Central America. And what I really loved was that it
Speaker 5: felt to me like, you know, like if you take
Speaker 5: like tribal myths from like Spain and tribal myths for like,
Speaker 5: you know, Sweden, they probably are going to bear some
Speaker 5: connection to each other. That's a lot more than like
Speaker 5: they would have to something from Japan, but they're still
Speaker 5: vastly different because they're on, you know, thousands of miles apart. Sure,
Speaker 5: this felt to me like it had a little bit
Speaker 5: of some of the same and again, I'm not a
Speaker 5: visual person, so I might be completely making this up
Speaker 5: or I was like projecting it. But it felt like
Speaker 5: it had a little bit of the same kind of
Speaker 5: idea in terms of the visual construction of it, but
Speaker 5: was still very unique and different, very you know, to
Speaker 5: these two different like communities that that MCU is introducing
Speaker 5: that are are based in you know, our own world's
Speaker 5: understanding of you know, the the myths and stories from
Speaker 5: native indigenous Native American communities and indigenous communities. So yeah,
Speaker 5: I really liked that and I but I was definitely
Speaker 5: very confused. I was like, where are we going with this?
Speaker 5: And because I didn't I I didn't see it coming
Speaker 5: at all, that Echo would have superpowers. And I really
Speaker 5: loved the way that they did it and this kind
Speaker 5: of slow build and the fact that they the introduction
Speaker 5: of each of these different chalk Taw legends everything from
Speaker 5: the like you know, the creation myth to hey, by
Speaker 5: the way, lacrosse is a sport based in something from
Speaker 5: Native Americans, which, by the way, I believe that in
Speaker 5: the upcoming Olympics, the Iroquois nation, which has members of
Speaker 5: both American and Canadian citizenship, are gone because it's but yeah,
Speaker 5: so the acknowledgement of like, yeah, it's not exactly lacrosse,
Speaker 5: but it's clearly the sport that our modern day sport
Speaker 5: of lacrosse was based in to the whole thing about
Speaker 5: the light horsemen and the significance of the braid, which
Speaker 5: they never commented on, but you know they in the
Speaker 5: film they say, you know, braids were supposed to be
Speaker 5: for warriors, and that's not for women. As the show
Speaker 5: goes on, Echo is wearing more and more of her
Speaker 5: hair in a braid until by the last big fight scene,
Speaker 5: or actually I think it was when she comes to
Speaker 5: her family after, it's a braid all the way down.
Speaker 5: It was just I just loved it. And I thought
Speaker 5: the way that they weaved her story into those creation
Speaker 5: stories and legends of her people was just utterly fantastic.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and with with her mom being oh, it's just
Speaker 8: and I actually kind of liked that they didn't dive
Speaker 8: into one of those things where it's like were you
Speaker 8: paying attention? But in the car crash, uh, when Maya
Speaker 8: it looked like Maya was checking her mom's pulse, but
Speaker 8: she did it with both hands and it looked like
Speaker 8: she was trying to heal her mom in.
Speaker 4: The car crash, like right after the crash.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and then you find out, you know, four episodes later,
Speaker 8: that that's the motion that her mom would do to
Speaker 8: do her healing ability, and it's just it's it just
Speaker 8: adds that extra little heartbreak of Maya trying to heal
Speaker 8: her mom and it's just oh man, But but the
Speaker 8: up the where that was a complete tangent, but uh,
Speaker 8: bringing in her mom for the last like story to
Speaker 8: bring everything together as far as like showing different origins
Speaker 8: of the past. I loved the way that her mom
Speaker 8: was just like you need to be you need to
Speaker 8: be brave and it has you know, the episode one flashback,
Speaker 8: you need to be cunning, like the episode two flashback,
Speaker 8: and just the way that just in the way that
Speaker 8: they chose to tell the story worked so almost flawlessly
Speaker 8: to keep everything wrapped up into one coherent.
Speaker 4: Book.
Speaker 8: For lack of a better phrase, Yeah, it was was.
Speaker 8: It was awesome. It felt like you actually had one team,
Speaker 8: one good writer, making one good season of a show
Speaker 8: and not like something. If this had come out weekly,
Speaker 8: I'd be so scared that by episode five something would
Speaker 8: have been like reshot or changed because of se feedback
Speaker 8: and just it was, man, it was it felt like
Speaker 8: a like a complete thought, and I hope that they
Speaker 8: feel like the showrunners feel like they did what they
Speaker 8: set out to do, because it felt like, yeah, no, I.
Speaker 5: Think it's very true. And I know we've heard stories
Speaker 5: about that they released it all at once because Marvel
Speaker 5: doesn't believe in this and I don't know the behind
Speaker 5: the scenes, but I thought it works much better because
Speaker 5: it's all as one. And again also that's a throwback
Speaker 5: to the Netflix shows that were also released all as one.
Speaker 5: And just one more thing on her as well. I
Speaker 5: love that one of the things that is praised about
Speaker 5: her and said, this is something you embody from your
Speaker 5: ancestry is her ferocity, because I think ferocity is something
Speaker 5: we often think of as a negative thing for a
Speaker 5: hero because it's about, you know, like Kingpin is ferocious,
Speaker 5: Like it's about like being able to almost kind of
Speaker 5: like berserker rage is what comes to mind from that,
Speaker 5: and so to me, it is still balanced with healing
Speaker 5: and the fact that she's she has two different opportunities
Speaker 5: to kill Fisk, or at least one to actually do it,
Speaker 5: one to try and both cases she doesn't, and then
Speaker 5: the second one she literally tries to heal him, which
Speaker 5: doesn't seem like it worked, which is something we'll talk
Speaker 5: about later, which was curious. But yeah, I just thought
Speaker 5: that like naming her ferocity, but also showing that unlike Fisk,
Speaker 5: she can keep control of it, I think was a
Speaker 5: really beautiful thing.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 8: So is she a hero, She's a Netflix hero, which
Speaker 8: is so different.
Speaker 4: I don't know, it's I have.
Speaker 8: I have trouble calling most title characters in the MCU
Speaker 8: heroes if you use the definition that they don't kill,
Speaker 8: because most of them do, and it's usually unnamed bad guys.
Speaker 8: So let's just say unnamed hired thugs and terrorists. So
Speaker 8: how do you define a hero?
Speaker 5: So I've never heard that definition before, and I would say,
Speaker 5: you're I don't think it's a single superhero I've ever
Speaker 5: seen on screen who doesn't kill, just because I don't
Speaker 5: think that they understand how bodies react to the massive
Speaker 5: concussive forces that even like Batman's fists do. But that's
Speaker 5: another thing I think for me, the way I would
Speaker 5: define a hero, and we've done whole episodes about this,
Speaker 5: it's a very complicated topic. But you know, if I
Speaker 5: had to use a brief rubric, it's are you using
Speaker 5: your powers? And your powers can be superpowers, your powers
Speaker 5: just can be your fighting ability. Your powers can be
Speaker 5: your money or your political influence, whatever. But are you
Speaker 5: using the power that you have to protect the things
Speaker 5: that are personally relevant to you you which can be yourself,
Speaker 5: your family, the people you love and care about, or
Speaker 5: are you doing it in a more altruistic way to
Speaker 5: protect like people? Are you working to protect people you
Speaker 5: don't know basically? And you know? So for me, like
Speaker 5: I think that most of the Netflix people are heroes,
Speaker 5: and I think that's kind of the thing for Jessica
Speaker 5: Jones is when she's the most reluctant hero of them
Speaker 5: in some ways nick Cage. But when she goes from
Speaker 5: like I'm just gonna like look out for me and
Speaker 5: my sister too, I'm going to look out for like others,
Speaker 5: you know, she should grumpy and reluctant about it, but
Speaker 5: that's when she becomes a hero, Whereas like Punisher to me,
Speaker 5: never become because Punisher is always about his own personal
Speaker 5: revenge quests and I love his character, to be clear,
Speaker 5: but I just don't think he's a hero. I think
Speaker 5: he's a villain in a lot of ways in the
Speaker 5: MCU at least, But to me, I feel like she
Speaker 5: hasn't quite crossed that line. Like she kind of protects
Speaker 5: all the people at the even there, like it's her
Speaker 5: family who protects everyone else at the pow wow. And
Speaker 5: I admit, I don't really know why Fisk wanted to
Speaker 5: like kill all the people at the pow wow, and
Speaker 5: that's a whole other thing. I think it was mostly
Speaker 5: just to like cause a disturbance so that he could
Speaker 5: get to Echo. But yeah, I think she's she is
Speaker 5: heroic in many ways, and she has great power, and
Speaker 5: she uses that great power and she resists killing her
Speaker 5: enemies when they're you know, not in the middle of
Speaker 5: a fight, which I think is heroic. But yeah, I
Speaker 5: think she's still very much a gray character who the
Speaker 5: heroes can be gray. But like, I don't know where
Speaker 5: she's gonna I think she's gonna be. My sense is
Speaker 5: that she will be an antagonist to Daredevil and maybe
Speaker 5: by the end take Like I don't know if this
Speaker 5: is actually a comparison that people have drawn before, but
Speaker 5: I can see her very much becoming the Catwoman to
Speaker 5: Daredevil's Batman. You know, Catwoman is never quite a hero,
Speaker 5: and in some ways you're like, Batman, did you treat
Speaker 5: her more like a villain, less like a villain because
Speaker 5: she is, like you think she has a purer heart,
Speaker 5: or because she looks so good in those tight leather pants,
Speaker 5: and certainly about the writers, but like you know, she
Speaker 5: takes hero turns. She helps Batman, but often for like
Speaker 5: all right, fine, I'll help you kind of reasons. And yeah, so,
Speaker 5: I don't know if that's a comparison that's been made before,
Speaker 5: because I know her and Daredevil have relationships in the comics.
Speaker 5: I imagine she will wind up teaming up with Daredevil
Speaker 5: in some very reluctant way against King Penn in the show,
Speaker 5: kind of like Electra does. But I think she will
Speaker 5: remain some kind of Morley Gray, not quite heroic figure.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, so I guess to the comic book nerd,
Speaker 8: the knee jerk reaction is like, uh, no, that's Electra.
Speaker 8: But right, that doesn't mean you can only have one
Speaker 8: Cowwoman to your Batman.
Speaker 5: So that's time I was gonna sayd God forbid that. Uh,
Speaker 5: Marvel have numerous characters who play similar roles for each other.
Speaker 4: Yeah, heaven Heaven's Heaven's forbid? Uh I yeah, I guess.
Speaker 4: The way I see.
Speaker 8: It is like she had twenty years of this very
Speaker 8: dark bringing upbringing under under fisks rule quote unquote versus
Speaker 8: her like eight years on the chalk Don Nation before
Speaker 8: her mom passed. So and you can't undo, you can't.
Speaker 8: You can't overweigh those first eight years compared to the
Speaker 8: last twenty in one visit back home. So I think, uh,
Speaker 8: the first step is embracing her lineage and how she was.
Speaker 4: Descended from the first I think.
Speaker 8: I think, I think that that Chuck does name was Chaffay.
Speaker 8: She is directly descended by Chaffa. Embracing that and then
Speaker 8: using that as your compass to hopefully become a hero.
Speaker 8: But yeah, I don't think she's there yet.
Speaker 5: Which I believe. Chafa is also her mother's name, and
Speaker 5: it's supposed to be very significant.
Speaker 8: Oh, I think a lot her mom's name was uh
Speaker 8: uh Talloa.
Speaker 5: Oh, you might be right, Okay, I sutinly could have
Speaker 5: missed something there. I know. The first episode title is
Speaker 5: also Chafa.
Speaker 8: Yeah, the first each episode's name I think is the
Speaker 8: name of the the flashback character so Chafa, okay, hello
Speaker 8: to Loa.
Speaker 4: And then the fifth episode's name is yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: And I did love how they did all that. Clearly,
Speaker 5: you know, people have gotten the memo the generational trauma
Speaker 5: is what we want to see and and like seeing
Speaker 5: the seat her her scene with her grandmother where you
Speaker 5: know again, I think this is more than the Netflix
Speaker 5: what it does, although I think like some of the
Speaker 5: Disney shows, other Disney shows have done this as well,
Speaker 5: like they didn't have a here's why I felt this way,
Speaker 5: Here's why I felt this way tearful reunion. You know,
Speaker 5: I think the grandmother is clearly wrong and does a
Speaker 5: horrible thing by kicking out her, her son in law
Speaker 5: and her daughter, but also the pain she feels is
Speaker 5: like I have not lost a child. I can only
Speaker 5: imagine what it's like. But it's not like I think, oh,
Speaker 5: she must be a monster. I can very much emotionally
Speaker 5: understand where she was coming from in all and the
Speaker 5: way she is both defending it but also showing with
Speaker 5: all this guilt how wrong she was, and the way
Speaker 5: that echo isn't willing to just forgive that. At first,
Speaker 5: it felt very very real. It's not just everything about
Speaker 5: the family was so well done. All the characters were interesting.
Speaker 5: So let's again, there's so much we could talk about.
Speaker 5: And I think we're gonna do more episodes. And I
Speaker 5: will say on the MCU cast, which is for the
Speaker 5: strand of Pana Network, which I'm a huge fan of
Speaker 5: used to be a part of, they're doing episode of
Speaker 5: B episode coverage. Definitely recommend people check that out. It
Speaker 5: is phenomenal. It's gonna be phenomenal. I'm sure we're not
Speaker 5: gonna try and do that. It's not gonna go through everything.
Speaker 5: But I wanted just to kind of move back to
Speaker 5: this conversation of representation and the like and talk a
Speaker 5: bit about what it was like for There's great people
Speaker 5: who are talking about definitis in the show. Greet people
Speaker 5: talking about Native Native representation in the show. Uh, the
Speaker 5: Chalk drawn Nation like they specifically say it was very involved.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of chalk Tak and other Native creators
Speaker 5: who've been talking about this. I want to talk about
Speaker 5: what the show is like for me as an amputee
Speaker 5: and the larger question of representation. And I want to
Speaker 5: start by asking you actually will and as I say this,
Speaker 5: it feels like I'm setting you up. There's no right
Speaker 5: answers to any perspective you have go for. But I'm curious,
Speaker 5: what what is your feeling about representation in these kind
Speaker 5: of shows.
Speaker 4: I so, okay, blanket statement. I love it. I love
Speaker 4: that we that they.
Speaker 8: As the non represented, a member of the that isn't
Speaker 8: represented in some of these shows. I love seeing the posts,
Speaker 8: the random suggested posts that they sent my way, either
Speaker 8: through Facebook or through Twitter, of people being moved so
Speaker 8: much by seeing their representation. I would say, so, I'm
Speaker 8: African American, and I feel like classically African Americans are
Speaker 8: the only ones that get that, like, oh hey, we've
Speaker 8: been represented here, and so like when Black Panther happened,
Speaker 8: it was a big deal, but like it didn't feel
Speaker 8: like such a big deal to me because we've had
Speaker 8: representation before, Like we we have our Blade and Wesley Snipes,
Speaker 8: and we have our famous black actors that have done
Speaker 8: amazing things and have all these accolades and accomplishments, and so.
Speaker 4: It's like cool, yay black people. Cool.
Speaker 8: But then getting seeing this representation for deaf people and
Speaker 8: amputees and the wave of excitement that flew across the
Speaker 8: internet during Hawkeye, for because I feel like, especially with Hawkeye,
Speaker 8: there was like there's two different kinds of deaf representation,
Speaker 8: with Hawkeye trying to struggling with his with his hearing
Speaker 8: aids versus Maya just fully embracing the fact that she's
Speaker 8: deaf and she's not that she can.
Speaker 4: Use hearing aids.
Speaker 8: Being born deaf and becoming deaf, I think are two
Speaker 8: very different things as far as your relation.
Speaker 4: To any deafness.
Speaker 5: I don't know for sure about Memory is that he's
Speaker 5: better described as hard of hearing rather than actually deaf.
Speaker 8: But I'm not, and that's not corrected to birth and
Speaker 8: I yeah, yeah, not that we're both yeah, but I
Speaker 8: do appreciate the distinction. So and and seeing how excited
Speaker 8: people were about because there are there have been amputees,
Speaker 8: like if you watch like Agents of Shield Slingshot got
Speaker 8: lost both of her arms and they you know, they
Speaker 8: gave her bionic arms. And then Misty Knight is another
Speaker 8: famous arm amputee that almost every single time it's replaced
Speaker 8: with something that's a high tech replacement and it's an
Speaker 8: upgrade and not a This is the real world application
Speaker 8: of what would actually happen and for them to keep
Speaker 8: it for Maya it being someone who's non ampute, I
Speaker 8: think I appreciate it, and like I don't want to
Speaker 8: say it's novel because I don't want to like trivialize
Speaker 8: the impact, but like I really like seeing it initially,
Speaker 8: and then I go to the Internet and and people
Speaker 8: are just loving it. And and I've seen like posts
Speaker 8: from you and other and other people saying, you know,
Speaker 8: as an AMPTT, this is one of the greatest things
Speaker 8: I've ever seen, and and that's so exciting to me.
Speaker 8: I love that the same way that like representation of homosexuality,
Speaker 8: like on Shit's Creek versus other gay couples in other shows,
Speaker 8: where like it's a plot point and it's and it's
Speaker 8: like they embrace it in a way that's a comedic way,
Speaker 8: and and it in Shit's Creek it's just natural.
Speaker 4: It's they're not.
Speaker 8: Praised for for being together in public and all this
Speaker 8: other stuff. It's just it's just another relationship. And so
Speaker 8: when and I think that's the goal for representation of
Speaker 8: just like we're not basing the story around this situation
Speaker 8: for the character, it's just they have it. And for maya.
Speaker 4: She uses it, uses her metal.
Speaker 8: Foot in ways that people with flesh feet cannot, and
Speaker 8: that is that's what you want to see.
Speaker 5: And it felt highing up someone. But pro tip someone
Speaker 5: tying someone up by the ankles when they have a
Speaker 5: prosthetic foot bad idea, because we're kind of mister potato
Speaker 5: heads in that regard.
Speaker 4: Oh man, Yeah, it's so much fun. I love it.
Speaker 5: I'm totally with you. And for me, I mean, it
Speaker 5: made me cry numerous times because I got this and
Speaker 5: I had that already with Echo from Hawkeye. There were
Speaker 5: just a couple of moments, and there were I'm not
Speaker 5: going to go through everything, but I want to go
Speaker 5: through some those moments of how how it affected me.
Speaker 5: I also want to say that, well, I am an amputee,
Speaker 5: and I think you're right a lot of other amputees
Speaker 5: are are feeling similar to this. I should also say,
Speaker 5: like a terminology issue, there are people who in the
Speaker 5: same way, there's like deaf and hard of hearing, and
Speaker 5: the exact definitions amputee, I think is often used as
Speaker 5: a catch all phrase for people who use prosthetic legs.
Speaker 5: That's not actually accurate because some people are born without
Speaker 5: a limb for whatever reason, in the same way someone
Speaker 5: could be born deaf, they will often still use a
Speaker 5: prosthetic leg. They are not technically amputees. I think. I
Speaker 5: think the term that is well that we look this
Speaker 5: up and the two terms that I saw they're used
Speaker 5: most often. One is limb deficient, which is utterly awful
Speaker 5: and talk about like super ablest, like you're not what
Speaker 5: it should be. The other is uh, okay, the the
Speaker 5: other is unipod or uniped, which is fine and like
Speaker 5: you know, uniped versus biped. My understanding from Latin that
Speaker 5: I studied twenty five years ago and never got above
Speaker 5: us B minus in so it could be wrong is
Speaker 5: that for the single it should be pod not ped.
Speaker 5: But it could be wrong. Personally, I prefer monopod or
Speaker 5: monoped instead of by instead of uniped, because then it
Speaker 5: can be shortened to moped. But that's just my own thing.
Speaker 5: I know. Sorry, bad jokes, that's what you're gonna get
Speaker 5: with me. I will, though, say, like, so I'm gonna
Speaker 5: speak in that perspective, but it's not a univocal community.
Speaker 5: Like I posted a couple of things online about this already,
Speaker 5: and in one conversation there's someone who's also an amputee
Speaker 5: who's like, I hate representation, blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 5: You know, I don't want to see myself on screen
Speaker 5: like this. I don't need that. Granted, this person also
Speaker 5: thinks wokeness is the worst thing happening to America. So
Speaker 5: we're not really seeing things in the same way in
Speaker 5: a lot of ways. But I want to acknowledge that
Speaker 5: that's another amputee who feels differently about this, and I'm
Speaker 5: sure he's not alone, or they're not alone. I think he,
Speaker 5: but who knows. It's a Twitter person. So with all
Speaker 5: those caveats, the first moment that I knew, yes, this
Speaker 5: is going to be honest to my experience and to
Speaker 5: the experience of other amputees, to the leg amputees people
Speaker 5: whose arms obviously, and that's a different thing, but I
Speaker 5: think related. She gets out of the hospital and she
Speaker 5: and her father are getting ready to go to New
Speaker 5: York because the grandmother is kind of kicking them out
Speaker 5: and saying like, you're not welcome here, and she doesn't
Speaker 5: have a prosthetic leg yet, because like when most people
Speaker 5: lose their leg in a traumatic accident of some kinds
Speaker 5: like sometimes it's an amputee and it's planned, like with
Speaker 5: diabetes or something like that. Even there, though, I think
Speaker 5: it can still take a while to heel, but especially
Speaker 5: if it's a traumatic accident, it can take weeks or
Speaker 5: months to the point of like any contact on that
Speaker 5: part of your limbs possible, because often they need to
Speaker 5: do like skin grafts or muscle graphs or other things
Speaker 5: like that. So when like Misty Knight gets this badass
Speaker 5: prosthetic arm two days later, it makes her a cool story.
Speaker 5: You know, get me wrong, Misty Knight's an incredible character,
Speaker 5: But that doesn't speak to the to the like ampute experience,
Speaker 5: at least not it's an arm. It's not my experience.
Speaker 5: But like I think a lot of people at the
Speaker 5: time said, like, that's that's not realistic. Sure, So the
Speaker 5: fact that she's leaving the hospital it's probably been like
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks or at least a week or so,
Speaker 5: and her stump is still fully banged up. She does
Speaker 5: not have a prosthetic leg. I was like, yes, that's it.
Speaker 5: The fact that her grandfather, who's clearly very good at
Speaker 5: machinery and stuff like that, But it's not a prostheticist himself,
Speaker 5: and it's certainly not like a Tony Stark level inventor. Yeah,
Speaker 5: when she breaks her prosthetic because it gets stuck, which
Speaker 5: is a very real thing and can certainly happen. And
Speaker 5: when I saw that, I was like, if aprosthesis is fine,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be so mad. But it clearly wasn't, and
Speaker 5: she was like limping on it afterwards, and then they
Speaker 5: make her one that again it's not a perfect fit.
Speaker 5: She has to limp some and because it's going to
Speaker 5: take time for him to fix this and to do
Speaker 5: it right, all of those things, I was like, Yes,
Speaker 5: this this is what. This is much more accurate to
Speaker 5: the ampute experience, certainly the leg one, and there are
Speaker 5: times where she can do things with her leg that
Speaker 5: I absolutely cannot do with mine. And like the combat,
Speaker 5: like the way my leg fits, it fits pretty well.
Speaker 5: But if I start to do like lots of kind
Speaker 5: of crazy footwork things like the hold between my leg
Speaker 5: and my stump is not perfect, and it's gonna start
Speaker 5: to wiggle around some and be a problem. And certainly
Speaker 5: if I like impact it in very hard ways, it
Speaker 5: will like it could have come off or certainly it
Speaker 5: will you know, become loosened and also be very painful
Speaker 5: to me, and certainly if I dropped from a height
Speaker 5: and land on it. I tried rock climbing, and granted
Speaker 5: this was like ten years ago, when I have prosthetic
Speaker 5: technologies advanced a lot, but I tried rock climbing ten
Speaker 5: fifteen years ago and I dropped like five feet and
Speaker 5: it was incredibly painful because because it was like you know,
Speaker 5: you know, and I think the one she has has
Speaker 5: much better shock absorbers than the one I had back then.
Speaker 5: The one I now have has shock absorbers that are
Speaker 5: better than my cars. But still, I for me, I
Speaker 5: imagine it would be painful and difficult. But the fact
Speaker 5: that it is literally a an actress with her own
Speaker 5: prosthetic leg doing those things, and you mentioned before that
Speaker 5: she's not an amputee. In the Comics Awesome part of
Speaker 5: the story, they were looking for a native deaf actress
Speaker 5: who also can do fight scenes, and as it happened,
Speaker 5: the one they found was an amputee, and so instead
Speaker 5: of trying to like always keep her in pants or
Speaker 5: something like that, they were just like, fine, our characters
Speaker 5: amputine now as well, right, which is just like talk
Speaker 5: about wonderful representation. Like there's the intentional like we want
Speaker 5: a deaf character, so we want a deaf actress, but
Speaker 5: oh hey, the actress has an amputation, so let's just
Speaker 5: make that part of the character as well. That's also
Speaker 5: just awesome. But you know, and from all the and
Speaker 5: things that I've seen, I am convinced that for the
Speaker 5: most part, some stuff's probably an exaggeration, because fight movies
Speaker 5: are always an exaggeration of what physics can actually do.
Speaker 5: You know. Even Bruce Lee, you know, use sometimes wires
Speaker 5: and stuff like that for the incredible scenes. I believe that,
Speaker 5: so certainly many martial arts movies do the point of
Speaker 5: all this being the fact that it was a lococox
Speaker 5: doing it. I think I'm pronouncing her name right, and
Speaker 5: if not, please let me know. Fans told me that
Speaker 5: I could trust that these are things that a person
Speaker 5: with a prosthetic could do it. But it's funny also
Speaker 5: because at first I was wondering that she have a
Speaker 5: very different like does she have it, like really strapped
Speaker 5: into her leg? No, the like I think you've seen me.
Speaker 5: I just have a rubber thing that fits on my
Speaker 5: stump and it has a pin at the end of it,
Speaker 5: and then the pin plugs right into my prosthetic. And
Speaker 5: there's one moment where it's half a second and you
Speaker 5: might miss it, but she puts her stuff into her
Speaker 5: leg and it doesn't click immediately and she has to
Speaker 5: kind of adjust and push her leg down again. And
Speaker 5: I was like, that's that's my experience. I've seen that,
Speaker 5: So yeah, I just thought all those stunts, all that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 5: some of it's EMCU movie making magic, and that's fine
Speaker 5: because I do it with everyone else. But there was
Speaker 5: never a time where it felt like that's that doesn't
Speaker 5: fit what an amputee could do, what a person with
Speaker 5: a prosthetic leg could do.
Speaker 4: That's awesome. I really like hearing that.
Speaker 8: What keeps on standing out to me is the silhouette
Speaker 8: of her fighting Daredevil and she like holds her foot
Speaker 8: and then just like builds up tension, lets it go.
Speaker 4: It just likes it down on Daredevil. It's just so cool.
Speaker 5: That was that moment. Just maybe cheer so much, and
Speaker 5: and yeah, because I've definitely had like, again, I'm not
Speaker 5: a martial arts by any means, and that's not because
Speaker 5: of a prosthesis. You know, it's just because I'm not
Speaker 5: a great I'm not in great shape, and I've never
Speaker 5: studied martial arts. But yeah, that scene, it was just
Speaker 5: all of it was just exactly what I wanted to say.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so happy about that.
Speaker 4: A lot of fun.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it really was, It really was. We've got about
Speaker 5: an hour already. We're gonna do a quick bonus section
Speaker 5: for our members. And by the way, if you haven't
Speaker 5: thought of becoming a member, there's a great time to
Speaker 5: do so. It's only five dollars a month, fifty five
Speaker 5: dollars a year. You get access to add free content,
Speaker 5: you guys, is to bonus content. As I mentioned, we're
Speaker 5: gonna be starting book clubs definitely for Star Wars universe,
Speaker 5: probably for superheroes as well, once a month episodes that
Speaker 5: will be only for members, So definitely check those things out.
Speaker 5: Please become a member. It's a great way support us
Speaker 5: all the informations in the show notes. But before we
Speaker 5: wrap up, will any of the last things you wanted
Speaker 5: to bring up or talk about, or any of the
Speaker 5: last like plot points or characters or story beats we
Speaker 5: haven't gotten into. There's comparisons with the comics.
Speaker 4: Sure, Okay, I guess I have two observations.
Speaker 8: One, I I don't feel like cutting brake lines works
Speaker 8: as amazingly well as like every single Mob show does,
Speaker 8: because I refuse to believe that from when someone gets
Speaker 8: in the car to when they get hit. The first
Speaker 8: time they hit the brakes is when they're trying to
Speaker 8: stop at a at a traffic light, like even when
Speaker 8: you first turn the car on, your foot's on the break.
Speaker 8: So like that just and it's it's not an Echo problem.
Speaker 8: It's literally just a generic storytelling problem that stands out
Speaker 8: to me every time it happens. And that was like
Speaker 8: my least favorite part of the show because it took
Speaker 8: me out of it. But I don't know. I don't
Speaker 8: I've never cut brakes on a car. I've never had
Speaker 8: a car. I've never driven a car with breaks the
Speaker 8: brake line cut, So I don't know if that's accurate,
Speaker 8: but it just it feels weird anyway.
Speaker 4: That's one thing.
Speaker 5: And then.
Speaker 8: When I think of Echo, there's two designs design aspects
Speaker 8: about Echo from the comics that stand out to me.
Speaker 8: One is she has a white handprint that she uses
Speaker 8: like paint on her face. That's like part of her
Speaker 8: like putting on her costume quote unquote, and that is
Speaker 8: an homage to when her father died, he left a
Speaker 8: bloody handprint on her face, and they did that in
Speaker 8: Hawkeye Slash the flashback of this show where he had
Speaker 8: her his hand on her face.
Speaker 4: And like left blood stains on her.
Speaker 8: So I loved that. But then also her dad and
Speaker 8: then also her costume going forward had this like circle
Speaker 8: triangle or triangles in a circle that is part of
Speaker 8: it's on her costume in the comics. And then her
Speaker 8: dad has a tattoo on his right shoulder, and then
Speaker 8: it was worked onto her vest, and then also her
Speaker 8: her outfit that her grandma made has that same design.
Speaker 8: And I have zero familiarity with the Native American ties
Speaker 8: to that, but like when I think of Echo, I
Speaker 8: think of that circle triangle design and I love that.
Speaker 8: Sorry my dog, and I love that they had that
Speaker 8: in there, and it's it's like my favorite part about
Speaker 8: Echo as a character.
Speaker 5: I need to take a quick I want to respond
Speaker 5: to that, but I quickly first need to say I
Speaker 5: want to point out to everybody that if you're looking
Speaker 5: for a great podcast about comics by people who really
Speaker 5: know their comics. Remember that Will started by saying he
Speaker 5: doesn't really know that much about like Echo is not
Speaker 5: like the one he really knows that well, and that
Speaker 5: level of detail that you would just pulled from memory
Speaker 5: like is just like, yeah, sure you like listen to
Speaker 5: this man and his buddy Steve talk about comics on
Speaker 5: the Hype is My Superpower podcast. It is phenomenal that
Speaker 5: goes so deep. They really talk about the kind of
Speaker 5: ethical questions we love, but also just the awesome fight scenes.
Speaker 5: They're very critical of things. They're not just hype men
Speaker 5: for it podcast name notwithstanding. Definitely check out that podcast.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I just like it is now. I guess
Speaker 5: just kind of a point that all of these superhero
Speaker 5: shows have to hit. And I wouldn't mind if every
Speaker 5: now and then we skipped it of here's the emotionally
Speaker 5: important story or just the funny story of how they
Speaker 5: get their first costume. But I did think that the
Speaker 5: whole story for this and like her grandmother making it,
Speaker 5: and that's kind of reconnecting with her grandmother and the
Speaker 5: power there. I have seen little things about it online
Speaker 5: from people talking about how yet is very authentic to
Speaker 5: the chalk Talk community and things like that, and I
Speaker 5: can't like you, I can't speak to it, but it
Speaker 5: was but it was just it was just so beautifully done.
Speaker 5: I will also say, as someone who worked in car
Speaker 5: repair for a while, this is good. My understanding is
Speaker 5: was told to be by the way, who so I
Speaker 5: think we're also just yet like clear, but is like
Speaker 5: you can do things to damage the break so that
Speaker 5: they will slowly wear down and not be a problem
Speaker 5: until you're going at high speed. Sure, and I think
Speaker 5: cut the break line is kind of just like movie,
Speaker 5: you know, TV waving your hand over a much larger
Speaker 5: complicated thing that thirty seconds of break line technology wouldn't
Speaker 5: be what the show needed. But also, yeah, I was
Speaker 5: a little throne by that was a little more thrown
Speaker 5: by is But again in the kind of like it's
Speaker 5: a superhero show where she's gonna heal people with her hands.
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna worry too much about the exact physics
Speaker 5: of it. As far as I understand, there hasn't been
Speaker 5: a windshield built in the last fifty years that would
Speaker 5: break in such a way that a huge piece of
Speaker 5: glass would on its own fly. You know, break, They shatter.
Speaker 4: They're designed to shatter.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And here's the thing. Did I have a moment
Speaker 5: of okay, that doesn't really fit? Sure? Did it pull
Speaker 5: me out of what was an incredibly emotional scene, not
Speaker 5: in the slightest right, And did it bother me in
Speaker 5: any real way? Not the slightest Because the idea that
Speaker 5: she loses her leg in a car accident, which makes
Speaker 5: total sense. And by the way, the idea of like,
Speaker 5: one of the ways you can lose your leg is
Speaker 5: if the your leg doesn't have to be severed, if
Speaker 5: just anything happens to sever. I think it's the femeral artery,
Speaker 5: but whatever's the artery in your thigh and your limb
Speaker 5: basically loses blood, even just for a couple of hours,
Speaker 5: it may often have to be amputated because just the
Speaker 5: loss of blood in just those few hours can can
Speaker 5: be incredibly damaging. So all of that makes total sense.
Speaker 5: The fact that it's a big piece of glass.
Speaker 4: Caressed it.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I only bring this up because because as
Speaker 5: anything that as women led, there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 5: people on the internet who absolutely hate this. Many of
Speaker 5: them have probably never seen it, some of them clearly
Speaker 5: watch enough to see that scene, or at least to
Speaker 5: see some other picture of the scene, because those parts
Speaker 5: of the internet are going crazy about the idea of Oh,
Speaker 5: this is so fake, it's embarrassing, it's badly done. How
Speaker 5: could you possibly do this. I've had two people come
Speaker 5: to me and be like, as an amputee, aren't you
Speaker 5: so offended by how badly this was done? And I'm like, no,
Speaker 5: absolutely not. The physics of it perfect, No, should anyone
Speaker 5: in the right minds actually care? No, Like, I'm never
Speaker 5: gonna be the person who well, that's probably too offensive.
Speaker 5: If you really care about granular details like that, and
Speaker 5: that's how you enjoy something, I'm not saying you're wrong,
Speaker 5: But if you then claim that everyone should should focus
Speaker 5: on those granular details and not enjoy something if the
Speaker 5: granular details aren't right, I think that is it's just
Speaker 5: a really jerk position to take.
Speaker 8: Maybe sure, yeah, no, I guess the how it happened
Speaker 8: isn't as big of a deal as how are they
Speaker 8: representing it post happening, Like the the reason to become
Speaker 8: amputated isn't as important as how you show an amputee
Speaker 8: post amputation.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, and even then I think they did answer.
Speaker 5: If someone asked me how did she lose her leg?
Speaker 5: I would say someone was trying to get to her
Speaker 5: father because of her father's criminal ties or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 5: she said. Again, if someone asks me how did she
Speaker 5: lose her leg, I'm going to say her father was
Speaker 5: somehow connected to underworld stuff and someone tried to get
Speaker 5: at his family, and there was a car crash, and
Speaker 5: the car crash, her mother died and my lost her leg.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 5: And like the fact that's a piece of glass instead
Speaker 5: of maybe should have been a piece of the dashboard
Speaker 5: or something like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I spent seconds on that. I was just like,
Speaker 4: what did that glass come from?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, moved on.
Speaker 5: I will say that the two little quibbles that I
Speaker 5: would have had, and one of them is just a
Speaker 5: storytelling thing, and the other I'm speaking about my how
Speaker 5: I felt about how the deaferens was portrayed. And so again,
Speaker 5: people who are more of that community, let me know
Speaker 5: your thoughts on it. First of all, though, just when
Speaker 5: she walks into the her room and her mother is
Speaker 5: standing there and it just looks like a person who
Speaker 5: is standing right there, it felt a little weird to me.
Speaker 5: And then I literally had a moment of like wait,
Speaker 5: is this some like you never see the dead body.
Speaker 5: We kind of saw the dead body, but like, if
Speaker 5: this can survive being shot in the head, maybe the
Speaker 5: mom can. Like I thought the mom was literally alive,
Speaker 5: And yeah, I wish there had been a little bit
Speaker 5: of like forced ghosty like something to show that this
Speaker 5: was a spirit or this was like I don't think
Speaker 5: it's in her head. I think it was a real
Speaker 5: vision she was having, but something to show that this
Speaker 5: was like a vision of her mother or her mother
Speaker 5: re out through I want to say through the veil,
Speaker 5: but that's a very kind of Western phrase of it.
Speaker 5: I don't know what would appropriate language, but like.
Speaker 4: Through the echo.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works, which I did love the
Speaker 5: way that they they make gave that her name that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: The other thing that's threw me a bit was I
Speaker 5: thought there was some wonderful, wonderful moments where they cut
Speaker 5: out all the sound to show that they're showing this
Speaker 5: from perspective but in a lot of in a lot
Speaker 5: of them. Then they had music. I just like the
Speaker 5: music felt a little bit like they had to hold
Speaker 5: our hands a little bit and tell us, like what
Speaker 5: we should be feeling in the scene. And you know,
Speaker 5: I I did have one deaf deaf person who I'm
Speaker 5: friends with through TikTok, and I asked them about this.
Speaker 5: Their comment was like, well, I didn't hear the music.
Speaker 4: And I was like, okay, sure, but sure, you know.
Speaker 5: Which is I think a very valid position. But like
Speaker 5: it to me, I wish they hadn't had that. But again,
Speaker 5: those are two just like small quibbles. And I did
Speaker 5: think that for me as a hearing person, I thought
Speaker 5: it did a fantastic job of giving me an understanding
Speaker 5: of what she would how she would be experiencing the
Speaker 5: world in those moments.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's funny because I did like as a hearing person,
Speaker 8: I do notice that, you know, oh this is from
Speaker 8: Maya's perspective, because all of the finding sound effects effects
Speaker 8: and the and the grunts and everything are either muted
Speaker 8: or gone. But yeah, that the music is still playing.
Speaker 8: I guess that didn't even click for me. Huh huh, No,
Speaker 8: well done.
Speaker 5: Different people notice different things, and there's so many visual
Speaker 5: things that I noticed. But yeah, other than that, I
Speaker 5: just how do you feel about the MCU now having
Speaker 5: seen this?
Speaker 8: M I guess I mean, I come out of it
Speaker 8: feeling the same way I do about every other their.
Speaker 4: Entry of just like what's gonna help me under? What's
Speaker 4: gonna help me.
Speaker 8: Figure out how I feel about it? Is how this
Speaker 8: gets referenced in the next thing, or like whenever it
Speaker 8: shows up again, how is it going to get played from?
Speaker 4: Or like what are what have they introduced?
Speaker 8: What have they done that they're going to use down
Speaker 8: the line, like Fisk running from Mayor and sorry, I
Speaker 8: know my mic is picking up my dog right now,
Speaker 8: So I'm cricket.
Speaker 5: People love dogs. It's fine, please stop, thank you.
Speaker 8: Okay, So I'm looking for when's fits going to show
Speaker 8: up again.
Speaker 4: It's probably gonna be.
Speaker 8: Daredevil, but like, how is that going to play the
Speaker 8: Mayor of New York? So he's going to you know,
Speaker 8: he will have this perspective of the civilian compared to
Speaker 8: all of the superheroesnanigans that go on. So I'm excited
Speaker 8: for that. I uh as the Okay, I don't have
Speaker 8: a problem with the MCU.
Speaker 4: I think I think they.
Speaker 8: Did themselves a disservice in the big picture of saying
Speaker 8: that this is the multiverse saga and these three phases
Speaker 8: are going to be all Multiverse, Multiverse Multiverse, whereas I
Speaker 8: feel like this is more of the expansion saga, and
Speaker 8: we're we're doing things like a Moon Night and She
Speaker 8: Hulk and and wear Wolf by Night, and like these
Speaker 8: shows and movies like Shaun Chi where it's like this
Speaker 8: all this is all also happening within the MCU. It's
Speaker 8: not just those core characters from the Avengers. It's there's
Speaker 8: all these other things going on. And I am super
Speaker 8: happy to get more entries into this expanded lore.
Speaker 4: Kind of a thing.
Speaker 5: I just.
Speaker 8: The setting, the expectation of Multiverse Saga really did a
Speaker 8: lot of the shows that are worth watching or half
Speaker 8: things that are good takeaways a disservice because they didn't
Speaker 8: feed into the multiverse aspect. Like nothing about Echo says multiverse,
Speaker 8: and that's fine.
Speaker 5: But I'm looking forward to her appearing in Daredevil's story.
Speaker 5: And if Daredevil appears, like he's already peared in a
Speaker 5: Spider Man movie, but if Daredevil appears in an Avenger
Speaker 5: movie at some point, that's great. I have no expectation
Speaker 5: and no need for Echo to ever appear on the
Speaker 5: big screen, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm happy
Speaker 5: for it to be a smaller part of things. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I feel I still love Superhero fatigue. I haven't seen Marvels.
Speaker 5: I haven't seen the Marvels yet. I'm very excited if
Speaker 5: that movie. I think it's gonna be really good. I
Speaker 5: just I've been very with COVID being bad again and
Speaker 5: stuff like that. I don't want to go to the theater,
Speaker 5: but I'll probably you know, pay for it as soon
Speaker 5: as I can on Amazon or something like that. And yeah,
Speaker 5: I just this makes you feel a lot better about
Speaker 5: the MCU. I feel like the last couple of things
Speaker 5: that left me to be probably disappointed, this feels better. I'm
Speaker 5: gonna just do a quick run down of a couple
Speaker 5: of last things I had, and then we'll close and
Speaker 5: do a member section My Baby as a centerfold. It's
Speaker 5: just a classic classic eighties song that I absolutely love
Speaker 5: that the lyrics, like most eighties songs, have not aged well,
Speaker 5: but it's still a great song and I love that. Like,
Speaker 5: you know, I think we often do think of like
Speaker 5: deaf people as being completely like I think it can
Speaker 5: be just like there is it's like getting mute on
Speaker 5: your computer, but oftentimes there's still like you can be
Speaker 5: aware of vibrations or you can hear as you said,
Speaker 5: sound is like it's like it's turned all the way
Speaker 5: down but still there. So the fact that the song
Speaker 5: was playing just made my eighties kid heart so happy,
Speaker 5: and the fact that she was aware of it. I
Speaker 5: thought it was a really nice character beat. I did
Speaker 5: comment early that I thought that we were seeing with
Speaker 5: Bonnie check Off's firetruck, because they made a point of
Speaker 5: showing that Bonnie as a firefighter and she's there with
Speaker 5: her fire truck, and I was like, oh, so, clearly
Speaker 5: he's gonna be a major fire and she's gonna show
Speaker 5: up Later. It turned out it was not Chekhov's fire truck,
Speaker 5: so that's fine. But I will say that the acting
Speaker 5: throughout this was top notch. One of my favorite moments
Speaker 5: maybe Bonnie translating as someone is saying that he's going
Speaker 5: to kill Maya and Bonnie herself, because I'm trying to
Speaker 5: imagine what that would be like to be like trying
Speaker 5: to act as the dispassionate like, you know, I'm not
Speaker 5: here as part of the conversation. I'm just acting as
Speaker 5: the translator. But the words that I'm translating are utterly terrifying.
Speaker 5: And horrifying to me, and just nothing like it would
Speaker 5: be so hard to not get that right. It's so
Speaker 5: easy to not get that right. And I felt just
Speaker 5: her acting there was utterly phenomenal love. But you kicked him.
Speaker 5: Love thee sister tech and just as one little character beat.
Speaker 5: And this is the last thing I'll say. Oh two
Speaker 5: of the things, I'll say, sorry thinking. And then just
Speaker 5: two last things. One it was very blinket you miss it.
Speaker 5: But at the pow Wow they had the American flag,
Speaker 5: and they also had the pow Mia flag, which, like
Speaker 5: from again my very limited understanding, is a very important
Speaker 5: I mean, it's important in a lot of communities, but
Speaker 5: like there were an awful lot of Native Americans who
Speaker 5: went into the military and were drafted or you know,
Speaker 5: wound up doing it because there's so little economic opportunities
Speaker 5: and are part of that community of people who were
Speaker 5: never found from Vietnam. POWs are missing in actions. And
Speaker 5: I you know, from the few other Native gatherings I
Speaker 5: have been to and from those who I've been friends with,
Speaker 5: they've often talked about how important that flag is in
Speaker 5: some of those communities. So that was brilliant. And then
Speaker 5: the last thing just is because there was no commentary
Speaker 5: about it, but it was so perfect having Wilson fisk
Speaker 5: be connected to the Chalk Talk casino because oh, and
Speaker 5: again I might be projecting a lot here onto it,
Speaker 5: but I know that, particularly in some of the areas
Speaker 5: I've lived in, like New York State and Wisconsin, but
Speaker 5: also in others, the fact that a lot of these
Speaker 5: casino a lot of these tribes have opened casinos where
Speaker 5: the promise is that it's going to bring real economic
Speaker 5: vitality to everyone in the in the tribal community. I
Speaker 5: think that happened sometimes, but a lot more often a
Speaker 5: few people wind up getting a lot of the economic
Speaker 5: benefit and instead and then it's wanted to feeding gambling
Speaker 5: addictions among people who are already very poor, disadvantaged, and
Speaker 5: and there's been a lot of commentary by Native American
Speaker 5: activists about like are these casinos actually good for us?
Speaker 5: And is it mostly like white investors who are benefiting?
Speaker 5: And so again I'm projecting all kinds of things, but
Speaker 5: to me, I read that as of course, part of
Speaker 5: how Wilson Fiske would have first got connected to this
Speaker 5: community is that he's an investor in their casino, like
Speaker 5: it just fed so perfectly to me. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, all right.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much. Will. We're gonna member section.
Speaker 5: We're going to talk about some of the other Netflix
Speaker 5: MCU stuff and how it might show up or not
Speaker 5: show up, particular in terms of what's the future for FISK.
Speaker 5: But for those who are not members yet, hopefully we'll
Speaker 5: hope you become members. But for those who aren't, Will,
Speaker 5: where can they find you?
Speaker 4: Ooh, come and find me on my podcast, Hype is
Speaker 4: My Superpowers, Me and Steve Storman just gushing about Marvel Comics.
Speaker 8: Primarily it's a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy
Speaker 8: your visit. You can find me specifically as a Silver
Speaker 8: Dreamer all over the place primarily twitch and silver with
Speaker 8: a Y, and I build lego and building bricks and model.
Speaker 4: Kits and booknooks. Also on Sunday as we read Marvel comics.
Speaker 8: And we're in the middle of Original Sin, the twenty
Speaker 8: fourteen crossover event, and it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 5: That's awesome. Yeah, definitely check out Will's podcast takenally, check
Speaker 5: out the stream. They're both awesome things. The links for
Speaker 5: those in the show notes, of course, I am the
Speaker 5: ethical pan you go to the Ethical Pana dot com
Speaker 5: or just find me on true Story FM. You'll find
Speaker 5: this podcast the superhero of the Star Wars Heroes podcast.
Speaker 5: A lot of great things happening on both. We have
Speaker 5: finally finally wrapped up our Rebels coverage. We're going through
Speaker 5: the original movies with my new hosts. Because this is
Speaker 5: me being dumb, because I woke up early to do this.
Speaker 5: It is the Star Wars Generations podcast now because I've
Speaker 5: got two great new hosts who are where. We have
Speaker 5: a millennial, a zoomer, and myself a gen xer, and
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Speaker 5: also just whoever you are. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 5: All the informations on the show notes. You can join
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Speaker 4: We have spoken.
Speaker 5: All right to remembers, welcome backward, and keep this pretty
Speaker 5: sort because it's been a long session already, although with
Speaker 5: me and Will, keeping it short is a uh, we'll
Speaker 5: see how well that goes. We're going to try what
Speaker 5: do you think happened to Fisk and what's his future?
Speaker 5: Because at first it seemed like she was actually healing
Speaker 5: him and like letting him let go, But it does
Speaker 5: seem like he is still out there. So the two
Speaker 5: theories that I had was either one that it didn't
Speaker 5: work because she doesn't have that power enough, or be
Speaker 5: that she got him over his own like personal vengeance
Speaker 5: stuff enough that he's able to let that go and
Speaker 5: to start trying to be a helper. But that now
Speaker 5: instead of just trying to beat people up, he's going
Speaker 5: to try and become the mayor. But he is still
Speaker 5: gonna be like he hasn't like like like she's kind
Speaker 5: of like gotten him to another step in his advancement.
Speaker 5: Of letting go of the pain of killing his father
Speaker 5: and the abuse of his mother. But he's still not
Speaker 5: totally like a happy good guy because he's still going
Speaker 5: to be a villain, just a very different kind of villain.
Speaker 5: What what do you think happened?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 8: I it's so interesting to me because he's already such
Speaker 8: a well thought out character that like, to.
Speaker 4: Man, what are they? What are they? What are they
Speaker 4: going to do with them?
Speaker 8: So okay, I do think that she healed him as
Speaker 8: much as he is able to be healed, in the
Speaker 8: sense that she got him to not take the hammer
Speaker 8: and go into the other room and so, but because
Speaker 8: we don't get a whole lot more after that when
Speaker 8: he said what did you do to me?
Speaker 4: I feel like she.
Speaker 8: Helped him get rid of the pains with that memory,
Speaker 8: but not necessarily the rage. And so now now it's
Speaker 8: I think it's gonna be a different kind of anger
Speaker 8: that we get from him going forward. So oh, man,
Speaker 8: I I don't know.
Speaker 4: So okay.
Speaker 8: Referentially in the comics right now, Norman Osborne got.
Speaker 4: His so comic y uh, he got his sins eaten.
Speaker 8: But so like, yeah, so he doesn't have like the
Speaker 8: the pain or the guilt associated with the things that
Speaker 8: he's done, but he now has this like innocence guilt,
Speaker 8: so like it's not it's not an.
Speaker 4: Evil like, ha ha, I did this.
Speaker 8: It's a more like, holy crap, I heard these people guilt, right,
Speaker 8: And so he's trying to come to terms with that,
Speaker 8: and so it's not a very good story.
Speaker 4: And so I don't want that to.
Speaker 8: Happen with Fisk here because it's a really it's not
Speaker 8: a great plot device. And so I'm I'm what I'm thinking,
Speaker 8: how they're gonna be able to use this is I
Speaker 8: wonder if they're going to ask Vincentinofrio to flex his
Speaker 8: acting even more, and so when he becomes a mayoral candidate,
Speaker 8: he can actually smile with like a light in his
Speaker 8: eye because he has a different relationship with his past
Speaker 8: trauma and his pain, and he can use that to
Speaker 8: win the hearts of the of the people. So that's
Speaker 8: what I'm that's what I'm thinking. It's gonna like maybe
Speaker 8: he'll even cry at a at an in an interview
Speaker 8: of like so why you, and he'll like make a
Speaker 8: reference to his terrible upbringing and it'll actually bring a
Speaker 8: tear to his face. Instead of just like it's like
Speaker 8: this controlled anger on his face. I beat didn't see
Speaker 8: if he still has his twitch as post.
Speaker 5: Which is so well done.
Speaker 4: Oh so well done. It's so well done.
Speaker 5: You've taken me in a couple of different directions here,
Speaker 5: because like when I was thinking it would go, I mean,
Speaker 5: I kind of skise of Satlarry, but just say a
Speaker 5: little bit more about that was like, like, let me
Speaker 5: set that again, because one thing I was thinking about
Speaker 5: a lot that you were talking about that and also
Speaker 5: thinking about it is like one of the things that
Speaker 5: is hardest in therapy, and this was hard for me,
Speaker 5: but I like talking to a lot of therapists friends
Speaker 5: of mine, reading articles, like I know it comes up
Speaker 5: a lot is letting go of trauma, in part because
Speaker 5: when it has been just such a major part of
Speaker 5: your life, it's kind of terrifying to be like, what
Speaker 5: what would that be like without it? You know, and
Speaker 5: it's it's just like you know, it's this bad thing,
Speaker 5: but you've never you know, since before the trauma or
Speaker 5: in many cases before you can remember like you know,
Speaker 5: you know, what's your life like without it? And so
Speaker 5: to me, yeah, there could be that in him kind
Speaker 5: of really wrestling. That's the kind of what have you
Speaker 5: done to me? One thing that also occurs to me, though,
Speaker 5: is that in Daredevil he starts out already somewhat civically
Speaker 5: minded in that he does want to clean up his city.
Speaker 5: We haven't seen any of that so far in this
Speaker 5: version of Kingpin, and that it's always just been a
Speaker 5: kind of that hero thing of like I just want
Speaker 5: to like protect my family, want to protect the people
Speaker 5: who matter to me while becoming economically, you know, incredibly successful.
Speaker 5: And I wonder if that's the kind of like this
Speaker 5: is the next stage of his healing and that he's
Speaker 5: kind of like because the other thing I think this
Speaker 5: really comes up is he does have a lot of
Speaker 5: guilt and grief. And I think when he offers Maya
Speaker 5: the hammer and says you can kill me, I think
Speaker 5: that is one hundred percent legitimate. I don't think that's
Speaker 5: a fake out where he's like I'll stop her because
Speaker 5: of a bad fight, not at all. And I think
Speaker 5: it's because he still carries an incredible amount of guilt
Speaker 5: about what he did to his father. Oh my god, Actually,
Speaker 5: as I'm saying this, it comes a better way. What
Speaker 5: if she allowed him to forgive himself for killing his father,
Speaker 5: which then but then it doesn't become the therefore I
Speaker 5: can be a good person. So it could be a
Speaker 5: big good person, but it's instead I used my violence
Speaker 5: to protect my mother. I should and I shouldn't feel
Speaker 5: guilty about it. Oh my god, So now he shouldn't
Speaker 5: feel guilty about it anymore. So in some way, it's
Speaker 5: like it's the super villain origin story for him, and
Speaker 5: now it's like I should protect more people using the
Speaker 5: powers that I have, which is my money, my influence.
Speaker 5: Because I saw it like he has the cops completely
Speaker 5: under his thumb, that that scene was so well done,
Speaker 5: but oh god, yeah, what if that's really like? And
Speaker 5: so now she has to deal with like this is
Speaker 5: who I created, my bad sorry, because the other way
Speaker 5: I was thinking about that before that occurred to me
Speaker 5: is and again, like Matt Murdoch, very Catholic. Catholic guilt
Speaker 5: is a huge part of his story, especially in the
Speaker 5: Netflix shows. I think another very interesting direction would be
Speaker 5: if he is really trying to like go the straight narrow,
Speaker 5: but Daredevil doesn't believe it, and so there's some level
Speaker 5: of like he does fall back into criminal ways and like,
Speaker 5: maybe that means Daredevil's right that he was always going
Speaker 5: to fall back into it, but maybe it's because Daredevil
Speaker 5: won't like believe that he could be a good person.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I like that They've left it in a
Speaker 5: way that we could speculate forever. But there really are
Speaker 5: so many different directions that could go, and all of
Speaker 5: them could be awesome.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 8: Fisk's so so Fisk has been the mayor in the comics.
Speaker 8: He recently got outed, but one of the things that
Speaker 8: he has has had a lasting effect over the last
Speaker 8: couple of years is he.
Speaker 4: Made super heroics illegal.
Speaker 8: And to make it different from the Superhero Registration Act,
Speaker 8: which the parallel to the MCU is the Cecovia Accords.
Speaker 8: Instead of making all super heroics illegal.
Speaker 4: They made it so all underage super.
Speaker 8: Heroics is illegal. And so like the oh I almost
Speaker 8: uh so, like if if Kamala Kahn ever goes public
Speaker 8: with being Miss Marvel, that would become breaking the law.
Speaker 5: Oh so it's like the Civil War kind of registration acts,
Speaker 5: but yeah, for New York City specifically, that kind of idea.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and so they so they basically made it so
Speaker 8: if you're under a you cannot do super heroics unless
Speaker 8: you are a ment unless you have an adult mentor
Speaker 8: who is already an established hero. So like Miles Morales
Speaker 8: in the comics just recently became the mentee of Misty Night.
Speaker 8: Just kind of random, but there it is.
Speaker 4: And so that kind of permeated plot line.
Speaker 8: Of the that's called the Powers Act. I'd be really
Speaker 8: interested to see if what kind of a law a
Speaker 8: Mayor Fisk in the MCU would bring you, because he
Speaker 8: has a very different relationship and history with superheroes in
Speaker 8: the MCU, because it's just not as established and it's
Speaker 8: not as long and he's only really dealt with Punisher,
Speaker 8: Daredevil and Maya at this point, So like, does he
Speaker 8: have an issue against superheroes, I don't know. So I'm
Speaker 8: really curious what a Mayor Fisk and the MCU can
Speaker 8: and will do.
Speaker 5: I'm really curious, And I admit my initial feeling is
Speaker 5: very prepardacious, because like we're talking before about how one
Speaker 5: thing we like is that this is the street level stuff,
Speaker 5: the like, yeah, Captain America is not going to care
Speaker 5: about that, except I feel like both because they've already
Speaker 5: gone through it with Civil War, but also because like
Speaker 5: a lot of them are still very connected to New
Speaker 5: York City, Like, how does doctor Strange not get involved
Speaker 5: in that to some extent? You know, how do these
Speaker 5: other avenger level people who are very connected to New
Speaker 5: York City, Even like Kamala Khan, she lives in a
Speaker 5: New York City suburbs, so she would not be directly
Speaker 5: affected by this law. But like having lived in the
Speaker 5: New York City area for most of most of my
Speaker 5: certainly at least half of my life, more than half
Speaker 5: of my life. Like, I know that like what happens
Speaker 5: in New York City politics absolutely affects like Northern New
Speaker 5: Jersey politics, in Westchester politics, and Long Island politics. So
Speaker 5: I I don't think they can do that story without
Speaker 5: it becoming a without it feeling like a repeat of
Speaker 5: Civil War, but also without it being like that. Yeah,
Speaker 5: the avenger level people do have to pay attention to it,
Speaker 5: and even it might be like you know, like maybe
Speaker 5: in The Doctor Next Doctor time, doctor Stranger is in
Speaker 5: a movie like Wong is like, oh yeah, what do
Speaker 5: you think about the mayor? They're like, come on, the president,
Speaker 5: when when when the nation tried to when when they
Speaker 5: do the United Nations tried to do this, it didn't work.
Speaker 5: I don't care about what the mayor does, like, but
Speaker 5: but I think they have to actually deal with it
Speaker 5: in some way. So yeah, I love the idea in comics,
Speaker 5: I kind of don't know if it could work without
Speaker 5: Wilson Fisk kind of becoming the big bath of the
Speaker 5: next Avenger stuff, which like if you're dealing, well, they
Speaker 5: can't do they can't. They might not do Kang anymore.
Speaker 5: So maybe it's gonna be that instead.
Speaker 8: But that feels like yeah, story so as as a mayor,
Speaker 8: you can you enter into like to flex your power,
Speaker 8: you do legal stuff, and so there could be cameo
Speaker 8: from like a Gen Walters right. Another another storyline was
Speaker 8: Matt Murder.
Speaker 5: Me sure, oh yea, actually think you read to say
Speaker 5: what I was gonna say? Go ahead?
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know if I was.
Speaker 8: But like another one, like Matt Murdoch helped pass the
Speaker 8: law where superheroes could testify in costume because of their
Speaker 8: secret identities. And so that's a plot line, the element
Speaker 8: that they could do for an episode. I don't I
Speaker 8: don't see a whole season being worked around that, but like.
Speaker 4: I see, I see a Fisk.
Speaker 8: Or an attorney of Fisk going up against a gen
Speaker 8: and or a Matt Murdoch.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that was basic.
Speaker 5: What I was gonna say is that I did and
Speaker 5: granted this is not what most comic movie people want
Speaker 5: to see, but I knew enough about like the courtroom
Speaker 5: drama side of the Civil War story, and I was
Speaker 5: sad we didn't get any of like Matt Murdoch's doing
Speaker 5: that stuff in the Civil War movie. Yeah, I'd love
Speaker 5: to say that, but I don't, you know, but you
Speaker 5: can have a cute little story like yeah again, it'd
Speaker 5: be one episode of like he tries to do this
Speaker 5: and like Matt Murdoch brings up Civil War and all
Speaker 5: this stuff, and at the end, Sam Wilson like appears
Speaker 5: to be like thanks for taking care of that. I
Speaker 5: didn't want to have that fight again, you know, or
Speaker 5: something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, uh.
Speaker 5: Let me just close then with this, because morning, if
Speaker 5: you were feeling this, I did like the end credit scene.
Speaker 5: We got the mid credit scene. But what I was
Speaker 5: hoping for since that thing in episode one was that
Speaker 5: possibly Daredevil, but even more so, I wanted Foggy or
Speaker 5: Karen to show up at the end in the end credit,
Speaker 5: and just just sit down with Maya and say something
Speaker 5: like so here we have a friend in common, or like,
Speaker 5: you know, like so I feel like you're also not
Speaker 5: fond of mister Fisk, you know, just anything like that
Speaker 5: to like and maybe that'd be setting the ground too
Speaker 5: much for the next.
Speaker 4: Thing, right, that's what that's my knee j on that.
Speaker 5: It would have been such a wonderful way to say, like, oh, hey,
Speaker 5: this person. Because I've later learned that we actually did
Speaker 5: know that Daredevil was going to be in this, and
Speaker 5: that a lot of that fight had been released online here,
Speaker 5: I'm so happy for my no spoilers thing. I had
Speaker 5: no idea. Yeah, so anyway, all right, well, thank you
Speaker 5: so much. You've been such an awesome guest. Just to
Speaker 5: be clear, I asked Will to be on this fourteen
Speaker 5: hours ago, and Will woke up early to be a
Speaker 5: part of this. It's early for me, but Will's in
Speaker 5: the West Coast even more so. Check out all the
Speaker 5: good things Will is doing. Check out what I'm doing.
Speaker 5: Please become a member.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, we have Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: My pleasure, my pleasure, and stop