WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:04.120 Symbolism is a funny thing, isn't it, Finding inference and 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.919 meaning in the things that we see and on a nerd, 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:10.919 I love it. I love finding all those little references 4 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:14.359 in the things that I watch in the media I consume. Now, 5 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:17.440 as you may know, at the Summer Olympic Games this year, 6 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:22.000 part of the opening ceremony was a tableau a feast 7 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:27.079 or meal depicting people of many different creeds and colors, 8 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:33.039 centered around I believe a drag queen or transgendered person Haload, 9 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.399 and in the foreground a near naked man in blue 10 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.679 wreathed only in a few bunches of grapes. Christians immediately 11 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:46.600 jumped on this, staying that it was blasphemous and that 12 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:51.320 they were draping the satanic and the degenerate on the 13 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:56.799 classic imagery of da Vinci's depiction of the Last Supper. Now, 14 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.399 we have to be careful when we interpret things that 15 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:05.599 our biases do not overly color our interpretations. And later 16 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.480 it was clarified by the organizers that it was actually 17 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:12.079 a reference to a Genderbila painting called Feast of the Gods, 18 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.640 depicting the Roman god backer Sorr. If you prefer the 19 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:21.120 original Greek Dionysus, god of wine, merriment, and madness. And 20 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:23.680 I don't know how about you, but I don't remember 21 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:27.359 a half naked blue bloke photo bombing that picture of 22 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:33.519 the most auspicious of evening meals, depicting people that probably 23 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:35.959 looked the way that they did, doing something that we 24 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:40.480 can't prove actually happened. So to me, this is just 25 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:47.439 another example of the reactionary persecution complex of Christian fundamentalists. 26 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.680 It highlights their need to have these sacred things that 27 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:58.079 cannot be countenanced, and the hypocrisy of calling atheist degenerate 28 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:04.040 and drag queens satan while claiming offence themselves. And so 29 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.640 what if it was the Last Supper drag Race edition, 30 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:11.319 Why should we hold these things so sacred? Why can't 31 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.560 we make fun? It may not have happened at all, 32 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.000 It certainly didn't look that way if it did, So 33 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.159 why can't we have a little bit of a jape? 34 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.800 Is God so emotionally sensitive? So if you can think 35 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:25.960 of any reason why we can't poke a little fun 36 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:29.360 at any piece of artwork, religious or otherwise. And I 37 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:39.159 encourage you to call the show because it's starting now. Hello, 38 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:44.360 and Welcome to Talk Heathen. It is a balmy Sunday, 39 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.919 the fourth of August, and I am coming to you 40 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:50.919 from my little hovel and I'm joined to you today 41 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:55.159 by Helen Green. Hello, Helen, welcome to the show. 42 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.000 Thank you, Jamie. I'm really excited to be here. I'm 43 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.400 all like, I'm all about it, so I'm really excited. 44 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:04.719 I hope the show today is going to be really interesting, 45 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.439 and I hope we get some really cool calls and 46 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:09.240 have some really great conversations. 47 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:13.280 Indeed, I believe we actually already have a couple a 48 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:15.199 call or two in the in the que already, but 49 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.159 there's a few things we have to go through first. 50 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.560 As ever, talk He is a product of the Atheist 51 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.120 Community of Austin, a five OZHO one c three nonprofit 52 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:30.120 organization dedicated to atheism, secular humanism, and rational thinking in 53 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.479 the separation of religion and government. And if you want 54 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.280 to get involved, like these people who are currently patiently 55 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.960 waiting online are you can either call us Old School 56 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.680 at the number five one two nine nine one nine 57 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:46.840 two four to two, or if you're a bit new 58 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.400 or new fangled, do go to the website tiny dot 59 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:58.240 c C Forard slash call t H so fantastic. I'm 60 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.840 really excited to get started with We've got a couple 61 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:03.520 of things to get sorted first. And first of all, 62 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.319 I would like to enlist your help in going over 63 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:11.879 our talk even to me segment last week we post 64 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:17.360 posted or posed picky poison. Post you a question, why 65 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.879 is God so angry? And if you do the honors 66 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:24.160 in reading our top three answers. 67 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.279 Yes, So the wrong answer is only there we got 68 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.519 number three from and if I mispronounced your name, I 69 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.079 am very sorry, Sarah Lee. Why yahweh is so angry 70 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.000 because the Paris Olympics was in fact celebrating Dionysius and 71 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.680 not making fun of the Last Supper persecuse. Some complexes 72 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.480 are hard, yo, they are. 73 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.040 I promise you. I came up with the Cold Open 74 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.560 before I saw these. It's just it's so obvious. 75 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:02.160 It's a theme now. Number two comes from Scott M. 76 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.600 Gods Ay because he only gets sloppy seconds. Only those 77 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.879 who let Jesus enter them reach the Father. 78 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.759 Yeah, I've seen. I won't I won't repeat the sign 79 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.560 because of the inferences were I'm not more than ten 80 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.639 minutes into it. I don't want even bod Dey monetized. 81 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:25.720 But there are certain phrasings that are used around Jesus 82 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.680 that could be construed the I know a. 83 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.959 Dirty joke that I can say, But again I don't know. 84 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:34.839 I don't want to get in trouble in the first 85 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:35.399 ten minutes. 86 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:39.519 Perhaps the after show. For sure, I have had a 87 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:40.199 top one. 88 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.519 And one comes from Steve row God is ariy because 89 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.800 Satan gets more tale which is true. 90 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:48.040 Yeah. 91 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:53.800 So also Satan really doesn't have that much of a 92 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.000 rap sheet personally, like he seems to just be a 93 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.000 guy doing his job. 94 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:03.199 But anyway, so we have a problem for next week. 95 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:08.000 So for you all your wonderful people that love to 96 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:12.680 engage in our comics section, please give us your answers 97 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.439 to next week prompt, which is what is a sub 98 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.480 of clue that you picked the wrong religion? Again, the 99 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.519 best top three answers will be read out and next 100 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:26.319 week's show. So Jamie, let me pose that question to you. 101 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:29.720 What makes you think you pick the wrong religion? 102 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:32.879 If I mean the religion I'm in the wrong one 103 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.040 because they let me in. How about yourself? You got 104 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:36.759 to answer to that one. 105 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.360 Weird sex stuff, there's always there's always weird sex stuff 106 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.480 and now like like you know, like consensual fun sex stuff, 107 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.720 stuff that makes you go is this legal? 108 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.000 I'm just a reminder do put those in the comments 109 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.439 down below, not in the live chat, because we won't 110 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:59.279 see them. If they're in the live chat, they will 111 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.240 not come excellent. And just a couple more things to go. 112 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.480 If you want to get involved with the show live 113 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.079 as well, you can feel free to bomb us with 114 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.639 super chats and as long as they are appropriate for air, 115 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:15.800 we will read them out. We have very little in 116 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.879 the way of shame, so as long as it's tos, 117 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:22.439 you can make us say basically anything. And lastly, before 118 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.639 we get on with the rest of the show, I'd 119 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.120 like to see a little bit behind the curtain because 120 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:29.680 we're not the only ones here. We have a wonderful 121 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:33.480 crew who make us look good. And there they are, 122 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:35.199 aren't they fantastic? 123 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:35.600 Ye? 124 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:36.399 Crew? 125 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:40.240 You love our crew and not I mean, we do 126 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.079 it every week, but they really do deserve to be 127 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.519 praised because for one person in front of a camera, 128 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:49.120 there's five behind it. And for every five people in 129 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:51.600 the production crew, there's another five behind them doing things 130 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:56.720 like moderation and email checking and all kinds of really 131 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.680 important stuff and nobody really gets paid for this. We're 132 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.160 all volunteers, So thank you very much. Crew. We appreciate 133 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:04.600 you for sure. 134 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:07.959 Okay, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, are you ready to get this 135 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:09.240 show on the road. 136 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.920 Have a call ready. I'm ready to rock. So we 137 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:18.720 have Benjamin him calling in from Alabama. He wants to 138 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:23.399 explain how evil is good. I'm going to bring you 139 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:29.680 on Benjamin here. Okay, Doky, sir, that is a bold 140 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:32.240 ass claim. Please do explain. 141 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.279 Yeah, well, I wanted to go on over one or 142 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.600 two times first before I got started. So I called 143 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:45.919 in last week about slavery, and people in the comments 144 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:48.879 was it was pretty funny the comments I got on it. 145 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:55.960 I explained the post of slavery last week. The reason 146 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:59.440 I was calling a good time is to, uh, it's 147 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.279 playing how evil is good? And I know that sounds 148 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:05.960 like a double negative, but I was going to try 149 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:10.840 to explain. So whenever stuff happens to people, whether it's 150 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.679 hurricanes or tornadoes, which I have personal experience for tornadoes, 151 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:22.120 but and the other taines that natural disasters or even 152 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:29.720 just everyday events losing her keys, uh, the the outcome 153 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:34.919 of that, it can teach people lessons, it makes people stronger, 154 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:41.000 even crude grief for deaths or there's always a purpose 155 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.519 to all of it. Death for example, if it's that 156 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:51.320 person's time to go, then there's that. If you get sick, 157 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:54.840 it makes your body stronger. So there's a lot of 158 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.440 polls to actual what would be considered bad or evil. 159 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:03.679 Okay, well, so so that's often what's called the theodicy 160 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:07.360 of the greater good, like the things that are apparently 161 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.440 evil in fact serve greater good purpose. I have some 162 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:12.440 thoughts on that, but I'd actually like to throw over 163 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.720 to my co host Helen first. You have any thoughts 164 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:17.679 on this to get us started, So. 165 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.399 Let me post your question. Do people have to go through, 166 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.440 you know, catastrophic events to learn lessons? Like, like, what 167 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.399 is the purpose of like people going through like really 168 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.279 terrible things so they become a stronger person? Like is 169 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.600 there some like can't you do those things without losing 170 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.480 your house and a hurricane? Because there is a little 171 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.919 bit of a problem with that premise, And indeed that 172 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.279 you know, if terrible things happen to people, there's been 173 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:53.080 they're supposed to somehow grow out of it. But there 174 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.919 are people that go through very challenging events and it 175 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.080 actually makes their lives much worse and they can't get 176 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:03.159 back from it. They don't get the help that they need. 177 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:08.240 So to me, it all depends on circumstance and what 178 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.600 type of person you are. So is it worth to 179 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:15.679 go through a terrible event to become a stronger, better person? 180 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:21.919 So two trains I was. I didn't want to interrupt you, so, uh, 181 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.440 the the bad things that happen to people, there's different 182 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:29.799 levels to uh bad things that happen to people. So 183 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.240 for example, losing car keys, you know, would teach somebody 184 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:36.720 to hold on to the car keys more better, you know. 185 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.639 The second point that I wanted to make on that 186 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.799 was that and losing the house. Example, even if somebody 187 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:49.879 loses their house due to a hurricane that's not in 188 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:53.840 their control, it might have happened for a good reason. 189 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:54.639 Maybe it was. 190 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.240 Time for them to move away. 191 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:02.399 Have better opportunities someplace else. And my case, here in 192 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:06.840 my town, we got destroyed by tornadoes. There was three 193 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:10.000 tornadoes and one day back in April or twenty eleven, 194 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.840 and my whole town got destroyed downtown and a lot 195 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:17.279 of people I knew left but they also left and 196 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:23.039 got better jobs and more opportunities, because even here there's 197 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:27.159 not much here to do, and we're slowly we're building downtown. 198 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:32.480 But it's a process and it teaches people patients. 199 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.759 So so I'm I'm gonna step in with a couple 200 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.360 of thoughts here. Firstly, I'm strongly of the belief that 201 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.879 people flourish in spite of trauma, not because of it. 202 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.039 Trauma often does leave us permanently damaged, and a lot 203 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:50.679 of traumas do not have an upside. For example, I 204 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:56.600 don't care how much personal strength and fortitude and debility 205 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:00.440 to deal with stressful situations better comes from a pair 206 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:06.679 of parents losing their child to early onset cancer that 207 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.360 takes them before they reach their second birthday. I can't 208 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:14.559 think of any lesson worth paying that price. And it's 209 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:19.000 a circular argument. We suffer to get better at dealing 210 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.960 with suffering, so we can do it better when we 211 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.440 suffer more. Why is all that suffering necessary? 212 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.159 I wasn't find to fall into a social argument that's 213 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:31.399 while much more going on our way that keeps its 214 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:32.159 people's stuff. 215 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:38.679 But are the lessons worth the price of the other 216 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.440 lessons worth the price of admission. I don't think they 217 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.919 are in a lot of cases. Yeah, losing your keys 218 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.279 doesn't really have much in the way of consequence, But 219 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:51.159 losing your life or the life of someone you care about, 220 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:55.320 or everything that you hold dear, or your dignity or 221 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:59.639 your sanity or your agency, these are prices that should 222 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:03.080 not have to be paid, whatever the outcome. 223 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.000 Well, I weren't going to bring up what I know 224 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:12.519 some Christians would say and which time I'm considered, I 225 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:16.840 guess Christianity, but I'm like the old version of it, 226 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.480 like that died off hundreds of years ago to the 227 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.480 belief system that it was. But I would say, well, 228 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:26.879 I'm going to say what other people would probably say 229 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:31.279 to that, and say that in the Bible, it talks 230 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.120 about how the devil is a test of fates and 231 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.480 anytime that something happens bad, and I know your example 232 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.879 that is pretty bad, the loss of a child. But 233 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.720 there's always a reason for even the the extreme bad. 234 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.840 There's always a reason for it, whether it's to teach 235 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:55.360 a lesson or to make somebody emotionally stronger. 236 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:57.919 So let me let me cut you off there for 237 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.159 a second, of Benjamin, is your God. 238 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.360 Good not completely. I don't believe God is all good 239 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:11.000 because okay, well again then then he's he's a monster. 240 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.480 And I hope therefore, like a lot of the I 241 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:16.960 want to know what's true, and if that God exists, 242 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.679 I'd like to know if he does, and if you 243 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.240 can prove it, you give us evidence, that's fine. But 244 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:26.000 I hope, beyond all hope, that that megalamonoia call bully 245 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:27.519 doesn't exist. 246 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.320 And I have a question, if God isn't all good, 247 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.679 what's the point of having a devil? Because if God 248 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:38.960 is the arbiture of what is you know, what people learn, 249 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.559 you know, like if they if he does bring some 250 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.960 kind of tragic event into somebody's life, to be like, well, 251 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.240 this is the last thing you have to learn. Rather 252 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.480 than just coming down and saying, hey, you know what, 253 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.720 instead of you going through a horrific event, let me 254 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.440 tell you, you know an opportunity that might come along if 255 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.720 you move away from your town. Instead of setting a 256 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:05.279 tornado in to force people to move out, you could 257 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:07.679 have just come down and said, hey, you know, I 258 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.519 don't stay here because there's no job or opportunities. I'm 259 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.279 going to tell you where to go get a job. 260 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.559 Or fix what's happening right in that community. If you 261 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.759 are all powerful and you have the ability to do 262 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:25.360 this and you don't, then there is then to me, 263 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.279 I'm like, then you're just as evil as a devil, 264 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.879 and you've already admitted that your God is not all good. 265 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.840 So what's the point of having Satan? What's the point 266 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:40.960 of having a deity that's capable of creating change but 267 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.080 refuses to do so. It makes no sense. 268 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.000 I was going to say, I don't think the devil's 269 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.519 the bad guy, and here's why. So originally, Lucifer was 270 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.759 the most wisest, beautifulest angel in all the creation. And 271 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:01.480 when he fail, even while he's here on earth, which 272 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.160 there's a couple of times that I'll say to that too, 273 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.839 but his job was to test people's faith. That's why 274 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.720 I believe it was job. God told the devil to 275 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:19.759 kill his livestock, give them boils, you know, murder his family, 276 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.440 and see if he still plays as God. The other 277 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.640 flip side of that is that the devil is not 278 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.640 able to do anything that God doesn't allow him to do. 279 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:35.880 So if the devil wanted to the cause chaos, cause destruction, 280 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.480 whatever the case, might be God is the one that's 281 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:41.920 allowing that it's not the devil. 282 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:44.440 But all that does deal with a lot of the 283 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:47.000 problems that we usually have with the triominy God, and 284 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.680 that's fantastic that you're aware of those issues. My question 285 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:55.799 is like, do you do you worship this God? And 286 00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:07.079 if so, why. 287 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.920 I wouldn't say I. I would say I believe in 288 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.680 a God. Whether or not that God is on the 289 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:13.119 present for all good is irrelevant because even and I 290 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:14.480 don't want to go into. 291 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:20.359 The the I'm drawing a blank on it now, the 292 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.440 thread of hell, I'm sure you can tell me what 293 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:24.279 the name of it is. 294 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.240 I can't think at the moment. 295 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.160 The threat hell. 296 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:37.079 Yeah, yeah, So the people would believe in God just 297 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.480 in case with I guess I'm kind of that way, 298 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.319 but not really, because I believe that Jesus was the 299 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.599 son of God. But Jesus also was a God in 300 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.160 human form. And that's why I said my belief system 301 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.880 died off a long time ago, because the one that 302 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:58.759 that is was more Middle Ages to a leads uh, 303 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.000 I want to say so the fourth century and then 304 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.799 after the one took over a burned half to bits 305 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.200 in the Bible and sounds every say, every time that 306 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:07.960 screwed up. 307 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:13.039 Anyway, what I would say, Benjamin, let me let me 308 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:14.480 just jump in here. So let me just let me 309 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.440 just quickly jump in. What I would say, Benjamin, is 310 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.559 that I would recommend that you look at the reasons 311 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.400 why you believe what you believe, because it sounds like 312 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.759 you're a good, reasonable, and quite logical person like you. 313 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.400 You recognize some of the flaws in some of the 314 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.000 depictions and outlooks of Christians and the Christian God. And 315 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:38.119 I would say that recognize maybe that it's fear that's 316 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:40.759 driving you to want to believe these things, not just 317 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.240 fear of Hell, but fear of or a preference that 318 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:50.319 you'd rather have a malevolent intelligence than actual just nature 319 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.400 for the unpredictability and the seeming randomness of nature. So 320 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.799 I don't see malevolence in the universe. I see nature 321 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:05.240 running its course for good or real, and ascribing these 322 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:10.160 things too an intelligence good or real. I find that 323 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:14.920 the that tends to be the recourse of people who 324 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.960 are afraid of the unknown. They'd rather have an evil dictator, 325 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:20.640 the no leader at all. 326 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.839 Well, No, I believe I believe in God based on 327 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:29.440 personal experience and events in my life. But at the 328 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.640 same time, I'm not afraid of God, and I know 329 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.400 a lot of Christianity depending on the denomination, they believe 330 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.920 that you're supposed to fear of God. But yet God 331 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:44.759 is loving and that's contradictory, which I'll point that out anyway. 332 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.400 But so I have a question though, if you said 333 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.480 that you don't have a fear of God. But I 334 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.640 think what Jamie's getting at that you know and correct 335 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:59.400 me if I'm wrong that it's not. The actual fear 336 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.680 of a god is the fear that the universe is 337 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.799 random and it doesn't give two shits about you, doesn't 338 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:09.000 give two shits about me, doesn't give it. There is 339 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.799 no purpose and nature is just going to nature. There 340 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:17.160 is no predetermination, There is no purpose for the way 341 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.720 things kind of happen, and that can be very scary 342 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:27.119 if there is no grand scheme to anything. It is 343 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.240 just like you know, sometimes hur you know, hurricanes topple 344 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.400 people's houses. Sometimes, you know, people are are faced with 345 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:41.400 very catastrophic things and through that they are, you know, 346 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.640 if they have the ability and will and get help 347 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:50.680 to progress, do and become better. But that comes down 348 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:55.880 to choice and doesn't come down to some divine providence. 349 00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:01.680 And so I'm wondering if it's that fear that it 350 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.200 is all random. There is no grand purpose to everything, 351 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:06.799 it's just the way that things are. 352 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:12.119 My belief system is pretty old fashioned. I believe in limbo, 353 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.880 which not a lot of denominations believe in limbo anymore. 354 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.880 But I believe in limbo, heaven and hell. I believe 355 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.480 that the devils on earth. I believe that he has 356 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.799 control over certain things that God allows him to do, 357 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.720 whether that's to test people's states or just toss destructs 358 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:34.400 and either answer to that would be sufficient. But that's 359 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:38.720 my belief system. I also believe that God isn't entirely good, 360 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.079 because if he was, there wouldn't be evil in the 361 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:41.720 first place. 362 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.160 And yeah, so again no a triomny. But the telling 363 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:50.000 scene you said that makes sustinct thiss in Helen, you 364 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:52.799 are correct about my standpoint on this. You said everything 365 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:56.400 happens for a reason. No, he doesn't. Things happen because 366 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.200 they happen of causes. There's such a thing as causality, 367 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.960 but it's not like for an end, you know. And 368 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.920 here's the thing. One of the things that I find 369 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.359 most disturbing about ascribing these things to a higher power, 370 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:13.799 be it malevolent or benevolent. Like wonderful things happen to 371 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.079 people all the time. We meet people that we fall 372 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.799 in love with for the rest of our lives. We 373 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.480 have wonderful experiences that change us in positive ways. It's 374 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.759 not all evil in this world. There's plenty of good too. 375 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.440 But ascribing that to some higher power, we lose our agency. 376 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.880 We are giving it away and saying well, it can't 377 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.119 be helped, nothing we can do about it when the 378 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.279 it is. If we just said well, it's the will 379 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.519 of the gods, we wouldn't have done things like discover penicillin. 380 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.359 We wouldn't have learned medicine, we wouldn't have learned telecommunication. 381 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:50.000 We wouldn't have tried to better ourselves. Knowing that we 382 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:52.920 are all we have and our effort is all we 383 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.079 can do. We have one life, and we have one 384 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:58.599 chance to make it as good as we can, and 385 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:01.119 there's no big Daddy in the sky. I twiddled in 386 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:05.640 the knobs and that's what gives my life meaning to 387 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.240 know that if I want this world to be better 388 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.319 than it is now, I have to get off my 389 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.319 ass and do something about it and encourage other people 390 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.680 to do so. Know God's involved when you think about that. 391 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:20.920 Well, so the way that you look at it, you 392 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.599 have one life. I still believe in an after life. 393 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:27.720 But if you look at life and the lens of 394 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:31.039 I only have one life and after that I'm going 395 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.480 in the dort and we're turning into nature and dust 396 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.000 to dust, then that kind of puts you in a 397 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.279 position where you have to worst or try to accomplish 398 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:44.400 all your goal's bucket list, whatever you want to call 399 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.200 it before you die, because you do not knowing when 400 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.039 you're going to die. 401 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.839