1 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,719 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the trib Cast for Tuesday, July fifteenth. 2 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,559 I'm Eleanor Klibanoff Law and Politics reporter, joined as always 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,439 by editor in chief Matthew Watkins. 4 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: Hello, how are you doing well? Just got back last 5 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:37,079 night from Mexico City. 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's a that's a better location than Texas 7 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,000 has been for the last couple of last couple of days. 8 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:47,679 Much cooler, yes, yeah, temperature less humid and maybe we 9 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:52,119 yes yeah. Well you know, Matthew, when you I do 10 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,079 have a bone to pick with you, because when we 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,159 discussed me becoming the law and politics reporter, I thought 12 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,520 I had five years until I had to start caring 13 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,560 about redistricting. 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: Well, you know that was very naive of you. 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,599 Speaker 1: I thought the rule was every ten years, and so 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,719 I thought five years from now, who knows, maybe I'll be, 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,079 you know, a reclusive billionaire by then. I wouldn't have to, 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,599 you know, dig in on redistricting. And now here we are. 19 00:01:20,079 --> 00:01:24,400 It is the middle of the decade. I have accepted 20 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,640 this job, no takebacks, and we are getting into redistricting. 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,000 So really excited to dig in on that issue today. 22 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: Yes, very. 23 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,719 Speaker 2: Just the topic that you want to learn with like 24 00:01:39,079 --> 00:01:42,079 a very short notice on the fly, complicated at all. 25 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: No, absolutely not, which is why we're extremely excited to 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,200 have a guest who knows this issue backwards and forwards. 27 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:54,439 Kareem Creighton is Vice president of the Brennan Center for Justices, Washington, 28 00:01:54,519 --> 00:01:58,439 d C. Office, and a scholar on the intersection of law, politics, 29 00:01:58,439 --> 00:02:01,239 and race. During the twenty two ty redistricting cycle, he 30 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,079 advised nearly a dozen local jurisdictions, commissions and legislative caucuses. 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,360 Previously served as executive director of the Southern Coalition for 32 00:02:08,439 --> 00:02:11,639 Social Justice, where he hired and trained a litigation team 33 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:14,840 to argue in two key jerrymandering cases before the US 34 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:18,680 Supreme Court, and, most relevant to us, served as chief 35 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:21,479 of staff and special counsel to the Alabama House Minority 36 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,400 leader during a special session on redistricting. He also helped 37 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,560 create a video game about redistricting, which we want to 38 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:31,439 talk about. Kareem, thank you for joining us. Gelighted to 39 00:02:31,479 --> 00:02:35,039 be with you. You know, this is an issue that 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,520 I know you guys think about in the middle of 41 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,039 the decade. You guys think about this all the time, 42 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,960 you know, Just briefly tell us a little bit about 43 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,840 your experience in Alabama, you know, with their redistricting special session. 44 00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:51,479 Speaker 3: Sure happy to do that and again thanks for having me. 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,319 I am a native of Montgomery and got into this 46 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,479 in part because redistricting in the nineteen nineties was something 47 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,400 that changed politics in our state. So I have a 48 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:07,080 tie to the place in part because a new member 49 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:11,000 of the House Democratic Caucus, and this was outside of 50 00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:15,280 the nonpartisan work I had done, had taken over a 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,680 very young member who mixed things, hadn't done districting before, 52 00:03:20,439 --> 00:03:23,400 took over and was thrown into a middle of a 53 00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:26,599 session to deal with a Supreme Court case that Alabama 54 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,759 had to remedy. And so my commitment to him was, look, 55 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:32,879 I'll work for a year, We'll work through the special 56 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:35,599 session and anything else that comes up. What anything else 57 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:39,840 turned into was this special session dealing with redistricting, a 58 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:42,919 governor that found himself drummed out of office because of corruption, 59 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,240 and a Senate because the prior Attorney general went into 60 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,639 the Trump administration only to be fired. So a lot 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:56,199 happened in that time, but the process for redistricting was 62 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,439 one that definitely, you know, was very much Alabama on brand. 63 00:04:00,479 --> 00:04:02,439 I think other Southern states sort of have some of 64 00:04:02,439 --> 00:04:08,199 this too, but Alabama takes a particular version of doing 65 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,479 what it wants to expite federal order. So the long 66 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,479 and short of this story is it's a Republican supermajority 67 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:17,800 that decided that it was going to ignore African American 68 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:23,240 politically by the federal to remedy it, and they fought 69 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,920 tooth and nail on doing it the way that they 70 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:31,319 wanted to without public input, et cetera. There was it 71 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,360 turned out a filibuster. We can do that in the 72 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,600 state legislature that tried to slow it down. They got 73 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,160 what they wanted anyway. But it was the time before 74 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:45,439 the current fight about redistricting in Alabama, and it really 75 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,720 was exactly what unfortunately, the legislative majority supermajority is keen 76 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:53,720 to do, do what they want and force the federal 77 00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:56,319 government to tell them otherwise. And as you saw this 78 00:04:56,399 --> 00:04:59,959 time around in twenty twenty, I was in another capacity 79 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:03,920 the offering some advice to the legislative minority, some of 80 00:05:03,959 --> 00:05:08,360 the same people from whom I worked before, and the 81 00:05:08,399 --> 00:05:11,000 Republican majority said, well, we're just going to do it 82 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,000 the way we want and go and see us. And 83 00:05:13,079 --> 00:05:16,800 so they got sued and went through extra innings, and 84 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,480 they're still fighting millions of dollars later out of taxpayer 85 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:23,720 money to fight a case that they were definitely going 86 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,199 to lose. We told them they were going to lose 87 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:27,920 the day they drew these maps. But that's sort of 88 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:30,319 the story of redistricting I think around the South right now, 89 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,360 and it raises hard questions now with politics at the 90 00:05:33,439 --> 00:05:36,680 national level, that leads to even more uncertainty about the law. 91 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, a special session on redistricting, 92 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,240 an attorney general eyeing a role in the Trump administration, 93 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,439 governor on corruption. You know, I don't think I don't 94 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,959 know that we're going to see echoes of that here, 95 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,480 but you know, certainly we're you know a lot of 96 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,000 similar similar notes playing in Texas right now. So I 97 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,800 want to sort of just briefly and go over like 98 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,639 a brief history of redistricting, and Kareem you jump in 99 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,560 when I get off the rails on this. You correct me, 100 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,399 Matthew as well. I know you've covered this issue. But essentially, 101 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,040 right every ten years we do a census in this country. 102 00:06:13,319 --> 00:06:17,439 Once we find out who lives where, states redraw their 103 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,360 electoral maps. So that we have roughly the same number 104 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:25,560 of people in every district. These maps are often drawn goofy, 105 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,560 looking to accommodate, you know, a range of different goals. 106 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,279 Starting the mid sixties, with the Voting Rights Act, there's 107 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,279 a law basically saying you cannot, among many other things, 108 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:39,519 saying you cannot draw these districts in a way that 109 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,160 dilutes minority vote, whether that's by putting everyone in one 110 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:47,879 district altogether, or by you know, diluting them so much 111 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:50,959 that their vote doesn't right to the level. 112 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,199 Speaker 2: The idea would be, if you have a population of, say, 113 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,160 black voters in an area in the South, you can't 114 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,319 put all the black voters in one districting in order 115 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,240 to make it so that you know, the amount of 116 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:08,600 power is you know, only in that one legislative seat, 117 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,920 as opposed to the grace, or spread them out into 118 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:13,160 so many districts that they're so deluded that they can't 119 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:16,839 be elect there, you know, a member of their choice right. 120 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: And historically this is something Southern states among others, but 121 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:23,759 Southern states in particular have been quite bad at drawing 122 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:26,000 those maps in a way that complies with Section two 123 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,480 of Voting Rights Act. For a long time states head 124 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,560 to states like Texas and Alabama had to get their 125 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,480 maps pre approved by the federal government. That's how bad 126 00:07:37,519 --> 00:07:42,680 they were at this. And every single time Texas has 127 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,120 redistricted since the Voting Rights Act went into effect, at 128 00:07:45,199 --> 00:07:46,879 least one of their maps have been found to be 129 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:50,399 not in compliance with the Voting Rights Act. That's sort 130 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:52,319 of the backdrop to all of this is that. All right, 131 00:07:52,399 --> 00:07:53,120 so far kareem? 132 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: I think so far? Are you there? I always like 133 00:07:56,839 --> 00:07:59,279 you have one person, one vote came to us because 134 00:07:59,279 --> 00:08:02,079 of a case authored by Justice Brennan, from whom the 135 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,360 Brendan Center is name. But you're absolutely right about the 136 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:05,720 general thrust of redistricting. 137 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:12,319 Speaker 1: Okay, great, So then moving on from there where we 138 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,439 are in Texas right now. You know, we drew maps 139 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:18,639 in a little bit weirdly this time around, because the 140 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:21,639 census was delayed because of COVID and other reasons. We 141 00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:24,240 drew our maps in sort of settled on them in 142 00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:27,560 twenty twenty one. In Texas, the legislature draws the maps. 143 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,600 Other states do it differently. Those maps immediately faced. 144 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: Oh let me let me just pause right here for 145 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,320 a little bit of background, Like one you know, As 146 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,519 you mentioned, this was done in a special session as 147 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:43,600 opposed to the regular session because of the census being delayed, 148 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,000 but also it was coming in a very interesting time 149 00:08:46,039 --> 00:08:49,639 politically for Texas, which was we were not that far 150 00:08:49,759 --> 00:08:55,080 off from the Bete Rourke election in twenty eighteen, where 151 00:08:55,399 --> 00:08:58,879 Texas was looking like it was really trending in a 152 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:04,879 much bluer direction. You had seen you know, presidential election 153 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:08,840 margins go from sixteen percentage points Republican victory to nine 154 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,840 percentage point Republican victory to six percentage points veto almost 155 00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:16,679 wins there. And so one of the things that lawmakers 156 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:22,320 did during that session was, instead of really pushing to 157 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,440 increase their margins in the various bodies that they drew, 158 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:29,679 we're talking about congressional in this one, they went toward 159 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:35,759 a more an incumbent protection map, which was essentially, you know, 160 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,600 Texas got two new seats because of population gains, those 161 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:43,000 went to Republicans, but everywhere else they sort of focused 162 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,480 on shoring up Republican majorities so that the people in 163 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:51,399 the districts and the parties in power currently there would 164 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,799 essentially be safer as the district went on. As opposed 165 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,840 to you know, really trying to gain three, four or 166 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:01,080 five more Republican seats in that map. 167 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,039 Speaker 1: So it is it is a somewhat sort of this 168 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,480 is conservative map in the not both. It is both 169 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,480 a conservative map in that it will lead to Republicans 170 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:14,000 being elected and a conservative map in terms of not 171 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:16,600 putting their incumbents out on a ledge. 172 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: Right, because there were circumstances, you know, you could look 173 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:24,200 particularly like in the state house maps in Dallas County 174 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,600 where it looked like maybe they got a little too 175 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,279 greedy the last time, right, and they drew a bunch 176 00:10:29,279 --> 00:10:31,840 of different districts that by the end of the decade 177 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,639 had all flipped to Democrats in a way that you know, 178 00:10:36,759 --> 00:10:40,200 actually in twenty twenty, people thought that Democrats might have 179 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,919 been able, like in the lead up to that election, 180 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:44,840 thought that maybe they were going to flip the House. 181 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:48,399 And so, you know, I think you looked at what 182 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,559 they were doing. If you knew Texas politics, you saw 183 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,080 they're trying to prevent a situation where they're going to 184 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,240 be in trouble in twenty twenty nine to twenty thirty, 185 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,639 as opposed to let's just make these massive games. In 186 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:02,519 the early part of the. 187 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,039 Speaker 1: Decade, right, And I mean a lot of this is 188 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,080 happening in every state, right, Koreen. Can you talk a 189 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,519 little bit about like every state is, no matter who, 190 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,480 whether it's run by blue or red, is trying to 191 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,600 draw a map that benefits their party. 192 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: Right. Well, it's important to note a couple of things. One, 193 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,919 you're right, states differ about how they draw maps. So 194 00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:26,600 Texas takes the more political approach, where the state legislature 195 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,720 draws the map, and you know, if you've got the 196 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:31,879 votes on your side of the aisle, you get usually 197 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:34,080 what you want apps in the lawsuit. There are other 198 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:41,759 states like California Arizona that actually draw maps by citizen 199 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:46,080 independent commissions, and those actually tend to take a much 200 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,039 more i think, focused conversation about what the community wants. 201 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,120 So people come and present in a nonpartisan way, what 202 00:11:53,159 --> 00:11:55,480 they think the best communities are to kind of group together. 203 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,240 And often not always, but most of the time, the 204 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:03,720 states will say, and we don't incumbency or partisanship as 205 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,080 a sort of fact that we're going to take into consideration, 206 00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:09,639 and those tend to draw districts that those groups tend 207 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,879 to draw districts that are more competitive. One point. Don't 208 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:14,360 mention about Texas, though, but you're right, there are some others. 209 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,960 There are blue states that are driven by partisan you know, 210 00:12:19,279 --> 00:12:22,679 legislative driven maps, that do tend to produce maps that 211 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,159 tend to favor their party. But the one thing in Texas, 212 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,279 it's worth noting it did grow significantly, actually more than 213 00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:31,840 almost every other state. But it's important to note that 214 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,600 growth wasn't uniform across the state. And the mistake to 215 00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:38,759 that that's easy to miss in this is that that 216 00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:42,879 growth came within communities of color, and it turns out 217 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:46,159 that you didn't see a consummate growth, a concurrent growth 218 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,440 in the representation of those communities in the districts that 219 00:12:49,919 --> 00:12:53,000 Republicans drew this time. Now, it's also fair to say 220 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,320 the caveats one. Not all communities of color vote, you know, 221 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,080 one way or the other, but we know where they live, 222 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,480 and in those places where they live, you didn't see 223 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:03,639 a growth in the number of districts in the way 224 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,279 that you would have expected. So yes, it's probably fair 225 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,000 to say, you know, Republicans didn't take the max plan 226 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,360 that they could have drawn, but they certainly tried to 227 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,399 take advantage of every bit of extra territory that they 228 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,600 got because of these new districts there before do they 229 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,840 take everything possible to know? But it is also key 230 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:25,360 to know Texas is continuing to grow, and so there's 231 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:28,840 always this question about drawing maps that make sense in time. 232 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:31,399 A but five years, ten years from now, as you 233 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:34,799 point out in Dallas, for example, you see such growth 234 00:13:34,919 --> 00:13:38,399 in the metro area and including right the suburban counties 235 00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:42,200 where you actually see drastic change and just who mix 236 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,759 up the district that you can't necessarily cut your margins 237 00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:47,399 that close and expect it to perform the same way, 238 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:50,440 you know, years after you draw the maps. Yeah. 239 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,399 Speaker 2: One of the key stats that opponents of the current 240 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,080 maps point out was that ninety five percent of the 241 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:02,360 state's population growth was by communities of color in Texas, 242 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,759 but there were no new districts drawn, you know, for 243 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,679 to represent those communities that in that time. 244 00:14:10,879 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: Right, the two new districts that were drawn were in 245 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:20,879 white dominated, were white dominated and Republican dominated. So as happens, 246 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,039 almost like clockwork, right, Texas created these maps in twenty 247 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,759 twenty one in a special session, as you said, and 248 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,039 they face a lawsuit by a group at the time 249 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:33,480 the Department of Justice, as well as a group of 250 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,919 plaintiffs representing voters of color, saying we've been discriminated, you know, 251 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,200 these discriminated against voters of color, and that case took, 252 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,360 as these do, close to four years to move through 253 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,759 the legal system, culminating in a trial last month in 254 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:55,720 El Paso, where and this is important, the plaintiffs argued 255 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,200 that these maps were drawn sort of based on race 256 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:02,799 to discriminate against voters of color, and the state argued 257 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,799 repeatedly their main point was these were not drawn based 258 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,159 on race. They were drawn almost entirely based on partisan goals, 259 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,679 Which brings us to, you know, a couple of weeks ago, 260 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:19,919 where we start hearing rumors that the Trump administration is 261 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,039 pushing Texas to do a rare but not unheard of 262 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:31,360 mid decade redraw of the congressional maps to try to 263 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:34,240 get a couple more seats in the midterm elections. 264 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:38,159 Speaker 2: The idea here being, according to reporting of you know, 265 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,679 representing Trump's thinking, essentially that this is going to be 266 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,360 a hard year for Republicans nationwide. There's a decent chance 267 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,039 that Republicans will lose the House, and one way to 268 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,559 protect themselves about doing that is drawing more Republican seats 269 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,279 in Texas that could help help the Republicans maintain the 270 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,440 national majority. 271 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: And now, to be fair, congressional Republicans who enjoy their 272 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,039 districts that are drawn, you know, to support their reelection 273 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:04,679 not thrilled by this. According to reporting, you know, we've 274 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:07,440 heard that there's been some some real anxiety about this. 275 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,120 There was a big question about whether or not Governor 276 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:12,120 Greg Abbott would take this up in the special session. 277 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's you talked about how there's precedent 278 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:19,480 for mid decade redistructing in Texas. That last time that, 279 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:21,360 of course happened, was in two thousand and three. It 280 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,960 was pushed by Tom Delay. The difference between then and 281 00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:26,360 now is what happened right before that two thousand and 282 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,639 three redistructing was Republicans one control of the Texas House, 283 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,759 which gave them more power to draw the lines as 284 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:34,799 they saw fit. 285 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: For the first time like in modern history. 286 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: Right this time, the same people who drew the maps 287 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,600 in twenty twenty one are in charge are in charge now, 288 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,840 and so basically what they're being pushed to do is 289 00:16:47,879 --> 00:16:51,600 to change the maps that they chose for a reason, 290 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:54,879 the reason that we sort of already described before incumbent protection. 291 00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:55,639 Speaker 3: Long term. 292 00:16:55,799 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: Of course, there have been some things that have changed, right. 293 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,960 A lot of the growth in Texas has been as 294 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,559 noted in communities of color in the suburbs. The most 295 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,880 recent presidential election, a lot of those communities went a 296 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,400 little bit to the right. They still many of them 297 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,279 still voted Democratic, but maybe not in the same margins 298 00:17:17,279 --> 00:17:20,799 along the border, for example, which could possibly just the 299 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:24,440 politics have changed a little bit. Right in twenty one, 300 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,880 I think a lot of people were still thinking, right, 301 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,759 the demographic, the racial demographics in Texas are changing in 302 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,720 a way, particularly with the Hispanic vote, that would seem 303 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:36,880 to suggest that the Texas is trending in a blue direction. 304 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,279 I think the twenty twenty four election maybe through some 305 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,960 of that into question, particularly with the Hispanic vote, of 306 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,720 maybe that's not the case. Maybe the Hispanic vote is 307 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,400 actually going to turn out to be more conservative, more rightly, 308 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,079 more Republican than maybe people had thought in years past. 309 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: Right, right, I mean, before we get into like the 310 00:17:57,839 --> 00:17:59,680 DOJ letter and all of that, Koreem, what do you 311 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,759 make of this, just this push by the Trump administration 312 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:05,759 to try to like get squeeze a few more, a 313 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:07,359 few more seats out of Texas. 314 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is in some ways. As I say, I 315 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,880 think you're right about it being rare, but exceedingly so, 316 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,480 because right the story from twenty twenty twenty twenty one. Sorry, yes, 317 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:23,720 the last time around, Sorry I've lost track a few 318 00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:27,680 years now, it was that Republicans had taken over, but 319 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,400 the plan that they were undoing was a plan drawn 320 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,640 by courts, and this is one, as you rightly point out, 321 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:37,119 that was drawn by the very people who are actually 322 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,960 trying to redraw it now. Looking for the Trump administration 323 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,200 to be asking them to do this, it definitely means 324 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,160 that they see the risk. And it's kind of odd 325 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,119 because if you're looking at this, I just did a 326 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,000 rough tally of the members currently serving in Congress from Texas. 327 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,160 You're about twenty four or so. The thirty eight members 328 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,519 who are Republicans, more than half of them, close to 329 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:03,039 like fifteen of them are in there at a most 330 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:05,119 their second term of office. That means that they were 331 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,039 the beneficiaries of the readon that was done last time around, 332 00:19:09,079 --> 00:19:12,160 and as you rightly point out, there's a real risk 333 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,000 to those people if it get their districts jumbled and frankly, 334 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:17,720 to get more seats anywhere, you're going to have to 335 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,200 radically change a lot of lines. This isn't just a 336 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,839 surgical adjustment here or there. And so for those people, 337 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,720 you're asking them to appeal to an entirely different electorate 338 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:29,640 then before, probably not with a lot of money, probably 339 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,039 with the winds not flowing at their backs. So that's 340 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:34,920 a real challenge. I think the bigger question for the 341 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:38,839 question about why the administration is pushing this just now 342 00:19:39,319 --> 00:19:43,200 sort of raises a weird uh. I think possibility that 343 00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:46,119 if they think they've got to squeeze this much out 344 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,119 to get one or two seeds, do they think that 345 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,519 they can operate for another two years of this term 346 00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,519 with just a majority in Congress of one or two seats. 347 00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,279 I mean, it's a big risk. And of course, even 348 00:19:56,319 --> 00:19:58,599 if they get what they want out of Texas, it's 349 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,319 probably going to lead to some sort of lawsuit. And 350 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,400 so then the question is is there going to be 351 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,160 some doubt in the one or two seats that are 352 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,880 in the House of Representatives If you know this happens 353 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,759 nationwide where people are picking off seats hoping to kind 354 00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:14,839 of preserve the majority that they want. It's really I 355 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,839 think it's not the best way of forging national policy, 356 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,720 but it may for them be their only way out 357 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:25,119 of continuing the process that they have. And I guess 358 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,799 said the other that they set forth in terms of policy. 359 00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:30,359 The only other thing I'd offer here is thinking about 360 00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:36,440 where the electorate is since R twenty twenty one January fifteen, 361 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,599 or yeah, even more so since the last election. You know, 362 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,480 we've had a lot of policies that a lot of 363 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,680 people say that they weren't anticipating, even people who voted 364 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,359 for their president. So I think the question if you're 365 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,119 thinking from the state's perspective, how to craft a map 366 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,440 that's going to perform the way that you do. You're 367 00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:58,119 five years out from the last census. You're also in 368 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,799 a really volatile time about where voters are and just 369 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:03,599 how they think about the president, how they think about 370 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:07,759 the state leadership, etc. You're playing a big gamble. I 371 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:09,960 can't remember if gambley is legal in Texas, but it's a. 372 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,279 Speaker 2: Real question very much is not famously. 373 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: Not in Alabama either, But yeah. 374 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, okay, and you probably haven't seen this because it 375 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,880 was tweeted out by Jake Sherman right before we sat 376 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,119 down to record. But President Donald Trump, according to Jake 377 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,079 Sherman's reports, told Republicans on a call today House Republicans 378 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,559 that the GOP will seek five new red seats in 379 00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:37,400 the midterm reistructing effort in Texas. Right now that the 380 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,599 number is twenty five to thirteen. If they sought five 381 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,359 new seats, that would be thirty to eight, which you know, 382 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,400 I mean, Texas is a very red state. It is 383 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,039 not that red of the state, firstly geographically exactly. I mean, 384 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:56,599 that suggests to me that they would be taking a 385 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,799 huge risk both politically and legally and trying to get 386 00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:02,039 that across well. 387 00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:04,799 Speaker 1: And I think, like, I mean, to your point, Kareem, 388 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,359 these are not there's not so much as like you 389 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,839 can't do this so easily that you can say, well, 390 00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:11,799 we'll make this one person a little bit more vulnerable, 391 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,000 but make this person. 392 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,079 Speaker 2: Not as well. 393 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: Like this is a wholesale redrawing that you're talking about 394 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,640 that could result in making I mean, could potentially. 395 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:20,039 Speaker 3: Be a house of cards. 396 00:22:20,079 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: Right, you can get overconfident, you weaken everyone. And I mean, 397 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,599 certainly you know Texas is a red state. But like 398 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000 the urban centers remain very blue. There are some limitations 399 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,400 to how tightly you can draw this. 400 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: Matt, Yeah, And I think it's just worth pointing out 401 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,599 that if you talk to Republicans privately right now, a 402 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,519 lot of them feel this risk too. You know, I'm 403 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:47,440 sure there are people who think this is a good 404 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,079 idea Republicans. I have not talked to any of them. 405 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,039 Speaker 1: And if you're outside of Texas or you are you know, 406 00:22:54,079 --> 00:22:56,599 more on like the net looking nationally short, like, let's 407 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,880 take a risk and see if we can get a 408 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,640 couple more seats. If you're a text in sort of, 409 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,079 I mean, if you certainly hold a district, but also 410 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,559 if you are thinking like you know, I like the 411 00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:07,839 person who represents me. I would hate to lose them 412 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,240 to a Democrat. Like why do you care about this risk? 413 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,839 I mean we should say, like there is huge upside 414 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,039 to President Trump of getting even you know, one or 415 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:21,119 two more seats and holding onto that majority. And we 416 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,720 talked about the legal threat of course, like this these 417 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,480 new maps will be challenged in court. We will likely 418 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:29,680 have another election before that. I mean there's a question 419 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:31,960 of like, are we doing this so close to the 420 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,759 next election that it could potentially if they can delay 421 00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:39,640 it just long enough. But realistically, the big threat is vote, 422 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,839 you know how people vote, more than I think the 423 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,359 legal threat of it getting blocked in time. 424 00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:48,839 Speaker 2: But can we talk a little bit about the changing 425 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,599 legal climate in which this will happen in right, because 426 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,720 I think it now seems like maybe this trial that 427 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:00,400 we went through could possibly be moot. Maybe I'm wrong 428 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,319 about that. You can please tell me if I am. 429 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,759 But if there's a new district what the judges said, 430 00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:09,839 did they even? Yeah? But I mean the legal arguments 431 00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:12,200 were a bit different this time than they have been 432 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,039 in the past, and I believe that's because of a 433 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,839 couple of Supreme Court cases that have happened since the 434 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,400 last time Texas redistricted. Can you tell us a little 435 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,160 bit about just what has changed since the last time? 436 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,519 I guess since the the twenty eleven maps were drawn 437 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:32,319 and we went through that whole legal process. 438 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, and thank you that was the years sort 439 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,279 of you know, at some point together we look at 440 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,319 this eventually discourses. But yeah, since twenty eleven, right, we 441 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,160 had a very different Supreme Court. That's the sort of 442 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,880 first thing to say, because that really if you think 443 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,119 of who was on the court then versus now. The 444 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,319 folk from on the court in the twenty eleven was 445 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,519 Justice Kennedy. He is no longer on the court. Interestingly, 446 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,759 he was the one that despite deciding that there shouldn't 447 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,039 be a constitutiontional bar to mid dec eight redistricting, they said, 448 00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:05,519 Texas can do that if it wishes. It did. That 449 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,759 is the court, driven by Justic Kennedy, find a Section 450 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:11,759 two violation in Texas's map which required Texas to go 451 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,160 back and do the work anyway, so right, achieving in 452 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,880 without the you know, kind of broad legal theory that 453 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,920 at least the plaintiffs had asked for. Just Kennedy is 454 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,880 no longer there, And in fact, you've got a radically 455 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,559 different court than it used to be, one that has 456 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,079 six members that are considered quite conservative, three of whom 457 00:25:28,079 --> 00:25:33,440 are appointed by this current president. And so since that time, though, 458 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,559 before you even get to you know, what this court 459 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,480 might do, even given its differences, you've got changes in 460 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:41,920 the law. You've got Justice Kennedy never let it be 461 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,079 forgotten that, you know, took us on the path about 462 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,119 understanding potential claims that might exist on partisan Jerry mandering 463 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,240 only to say in one of the cases, you know, 464 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,880 I sort of had involvement in to say, oh, we 465 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,559 don't think that there's a constitutional limit in partisan jerry mandering. 466 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,559 And by the way, I'm retiring. So he leaves the 467 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:02,519 court to say, right, oh yeah, this tease of like 468 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,559 power having actual leverage to stop partisenteria manager, he says, 469 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:09,240 he goes away the same time. We have, as you 470 00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:13,240 all suggested earlier, more effort. In the assault on the 471 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:17,119 Voting Rights Act, Justice Kennedy joined a majority written in 472 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,759 a case written by Chief Justice Roberts, saying that Section 473 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:24,200 five of the of the Voting Rights Act has you know, 474 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,839 significant problems and therefore can't continue to be in force. 475 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,319 So it lets places like Alabama and Texas off the 476 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,480 hook to say you review to have your maps drawn. 477 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:36,759 So that opens the door to what you offered about 478 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:40,279 Texas's justification now for its maps. A, we can draw 479 00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:41,720 what we want because we don't have to get permission 480 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,720 before we put it in place. B when we do 481 00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:46,759 get challenge. If we do get challenge, it'll be years 482 00:26:46,759 --> 00:26:48,480 after we get new people in office, and we'll be 483 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,480 able to say it was partisanship. It wasn't race, and 484 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:54,920 so we find ourselves in a space where it's a 485 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,519 lot more hostile than it used to be. Here's the 486 00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:01,359 extra little touch that you get in the current era. 487 00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:05,759 We now have cases that try to pull back the 488 00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:08,039 what I think was a sort of sham of an 489 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,559 argument that again Justice Kennedy, I'm going to get back 490 00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:15,720 on him, doesn't get enough criticism for this dance that 491 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:17,720 he did. He said, well, I'm going to vote to 492 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,319 get rid of for the moment, Section five. But worry not, 493 00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:24,000 there's Section two litigation that you can go to court 494 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:28,359 improve cases of discrimination to stop bad plans. Well, notwithstanding 495 00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:29,920 the fact that it takes a lot of time and 496 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,640 money to get that done, we now have an assault 497 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,680 actually that the Fifth Circuit, where Texas is located, is 498 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:39,880 perfectly involved in. That says, well, we're now going to 499 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,720 ask whether or not it's even within our understanding of 500 00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:48,000 the Voting Rights Act to allow private parties to sue 501 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,599 to vindicate their rights against discrimination. Now, I will tell 502 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,079 you from the get go, in nineteen sixty five, nobody 503 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:58,799 in that place, including people who disagreed with the Voting 504 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,839 Rights Act, would have agreed that only the Justice Department 505 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:05,279 could bring lawsuits, surely they are one of the parties 506 00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:07,680 they could, But the idea was to have private attorneys 507 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:10,039 general throughout the country to be able to say, on 508 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,519 behalf of voters, here's what we think is a violation 509 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:18,200 of the right against discrimination. And that has been the 510 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:21,319 law since nineteen sixty five. Only now because of the 511 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,400 case at starting in the Eighth Circuit, the Fifth Circuit 512 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,519 has now agreed with sort of this argument that well, 513 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:28,880 maybe we should rethink whether or not private parties should 514 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,240 bring their claims. This actually would pull the entire rug 515 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,319 under from under the Section two litigation strategy, because it 516 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,039 leaves only the Justice Department, which we now know has 517 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:44,440 gutted its voting rights section except apparently to protect white voters. 518 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,079 That's another conversation for another day, but that if that's 519 00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:50,880 the only place that you can get any kind of relief, 520 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,559 you're limiting work to the number of people that are 521 00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:57,839 available to pull these lawsuits together and a political will 522 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,839 to pursue them. That's now really what Texas among other states, 523 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,240 is now arguing that the Court should actually consider seriously. 524 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:08,839 And I think it's an open question because we don't 525 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,720 yet know what those six members of the Court are 526 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:15,240 gonna say about again something that even when he was writing, 527 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,079 Justice Thomas never really talked about that, and he wasn't 528 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:20,880 a fan of the Voting Rights Act. But we just 529 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,720 have to see what happens. But it's a really scary 530 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:28,160 time if you're thinking about what we all expected to 531 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,559 be one of the sort of bedrock foundational principles of 532 00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:34,400 civil rights law that's now being pulled from under us. 533 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,480 And again, I take it back to this I think 534 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,839 empty promise that came from Justice Kennedy when he told 535 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,799 us that, well, the Voting Rights Act still remains a 536 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,079 valid tool of enforcement because you have Section two. There's 537 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,720 an open question as to whether we will right. 538 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: And I mean one of the cases I think you're 539 00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:55,400 referencing is this the Pedaway v. Galveston County case at 540 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,200 the Fifth Circuit, which plays a big role in this 541 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,359 current issue with the DJ also speaking of the DOJ, 542 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,880 sort of political will you know, as I was saying, 543 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,359 like this was such a this was very much a 544 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,599 political question of will Governor Greg Abbott take up the 545 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,279 President Trump's pressure to redistrict in this special session that 546 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,559 sort of got an added layer of legal cover in 547 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,680 last week, Last time is a cruel mistress. Last Monday, 548 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:30,160 the Department of Justice issued a letter to Texas informing 549 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,960 them that four of their districts for their congressional districts 550 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,920 were unconstitutional. Three of them because their coalition districts, meaning 551 00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:45,279 you know, the minority groups are represented by the majority 552 00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:48,119 of the minority groups are from different minority groups. They 553 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,799 put together different minority groups to create a majority minority district. 554 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,640 That's possibly the most confusing explanation. Google coalition districts if 555 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,480 that wasn't clear. And then the fourth district was sort 556 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,480 of created because of two of those coalition districts. And 557 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:07,319 so they said these are unconstitutional, under citing this Pedaway v. 558 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,559 Galveston County case from the Fitth Circuit and basically directing 559 00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:16,319 Texas to redraw their maps because it's unconstitutional. Texas then 560 00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:18,799 Governor Greg Abbott said, you know, in light of these 561 00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:22,279 constitutional concerns, I'm going to add redistricting to the special 562 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,559 session call. And this raised a lot of questions for 563 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,599 a lot of people. The plaintiffs in the ongoing El 564 00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:32,960 Paso case feel like Texas has contradicted itself because they 565 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,559 argued in their you know for a month of trial 566 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,039 that these lawsuits, I'm sorry that these districts were drawn 567 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,640 on race blind grounds, they did not consider race, and 568 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,759 that the state of Texas has long held that coalition 569 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:50,039 districts are not sort of a justifiable way to draw 570 00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:53,240 a map. So they felt like now Texas was sort 571 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:59,640 of acquiescing or surrendering to the government's argument. Texas came 572 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,720 back and said, essentially, we don't believe these maps were 573 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:06,359 drawn on race. You know, they were drawn on race 574 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,440 blind grounds, but we also would like to redraw them. 575 00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:12,720 And you know, adding something to a special session call 576 00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:15,680 is not the same as agreeing with it. Of course, 577 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,240 Governor Ibbit saying in light of constitutional concerns, sort of 578 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,799 there's a little bit of muddy water here, but either way, 579 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,480 these you know, gives them an opportunity to redraw these maps. 580 00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 3: I just offered, Yeah, what's silly about this, and really 581 00:32:31,799 --> 00:32:35,160 quite rare is for the Department of Justice to weigh 582 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,119 in and pronounce something un constitutional that hasn't been ruled 583 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,119 on by the Supreme Court of the United States. This 584 00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:44,039 is one panel of a circuit, one circuit in the country, 585 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,200 and they've given a take that by the way right 586 00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:53,599 flips their own precedent on this topic. It seems weird 587 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,720 that the right, the State of Texas, right, the sovereign 588 00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:00,039 State of Texas, would all of a sudden find it 589 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:03,839 absolutely necessary to follow what is less than a complete 590 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,240 or final statement of what the law is that comes 591 00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:09,640 from a justice department that you know, again interprets voting 592 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,079 rights law. That's you're not going to hear that every day, 593 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:14,480 So you know, you do sit and wonder whether the 594 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,359 fix is in on sort of an understanding or winkin 595 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,480 or nod about how they want to open the door 596 00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:23,880 to this sort of redrawn But it is quite rare 597 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,039 to see the Justice Department way in to make such 598 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:29,920 broad pronouncements. None of this has been settled, and in fact, 599 00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:31,720 there's plenty of belong on the other side that says 600 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:35,160 there's nothing unconstitutional about creating a district where people of 601 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920 color happen to be the majority of the population, particularly 602 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,920 in a say, jurisdiction like Houston, where the population actually 603 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,039 looks like the districts that were drawn. So it's an 604 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:50,319 interesting dynamic where you see again the dance between the 605 00:33:50,359 --> 00:33:52,640 state all you know, all of a sudden, thinking well, 606 00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:54,880 clearly if the federal government told us to do what 607 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,400 we have to where that's never been anything in state 608 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,559 of Texas or for that matter, Alabama has sort of 609 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:01,680 stopped in its tracks to say, well, we've got to 610 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,680 rethink this thing because the federal government has suggested something 611 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,079 to the contrary, even frankly, when the Supreme Court has 612 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:08,159 told them to do it. 613 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: Right, I want to take step ask a big picture 614 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:14,360 question here, right, because one of the things that's sort 615 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,800 of happening, particularly in the South, but not only in 616 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,599 the South, I guess, is that there is a strong 617 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:28,400 racial dynamic to our politics right the you know, in 618 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:34,119 in the South, the Republican Party is overwhelmingly white, Black 619 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:38,599 voters overwhelmingly vote Democratic. Hispanic voters have been a little 620 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:41,679 bit shifting back and forth, right. But I'm just curious 621 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,559 kind of how you think through this idea of you know, Texas, 622 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:48,400 in this lawsuit, whether they're now making this case in 623 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,440 the past, made the argument that they made their decisions 624 00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:54,360 based on how to draw the lines based on politics 625 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:55,400 and not race. 626 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,039 Speaker 1: Specifically Attorney General Ken pax And saying we drew these 627 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,800 to make America great again. 628 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: Exactly, And how I wonder if you could just talk 629 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,960 a little bit about that kind of how difficult it 630 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,239 is to sort of separate those two things, and has 631 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,599 it become more difficult for plaintiffs in these cases seeking 632 00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:20,199 to overturn these maps to make the case that, whether 633 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,960 it's political or not, you are diluting the power of 634 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,760 black voters of Hispanic voters by drawing the districts these ways. 635 00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:32,039 Speaker 3: Okay, well, let me start with the news flash. Politics 636 00:35:32,039 --> 00:35:34,840 in the South has always something to do with race. 637 00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:36,960 I know you're going to be shocked to hear that. 638 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,960 It's just the fact of life, right. What that effect 639 00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:44,079 is and how it kind of plays out in policy, 640 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,800 that's a different conversation. But I think one of the 641 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,519 challenges you're rightly pointing out is, Look, the law is 642 00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:52,719 really messy when it comes to thinking about that truth 643 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,360 that politics and race. It particularly in the South, I think, 644 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,039 frankly everywhere to some degree, but in the South it's 645 00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:01,239 most pronounced because every you know, you name me the policy, 646 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,559 I'll trace back to some narrative that sort of shows 647 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,719 the way in which race has figured into why the 648 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,679 policy was drafted or why the policy had to change. 649 00:36:11,559 --> 00:36:14,880 That's no less true with redistricting than anything else. The 650 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,320 law unfortunately has sort of given us this fiction to 651 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,239 suggest that one can either turn off the sort of 652 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,719 racial lens or only think about partisanship in a world 653 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,360 where we know, like think back to the Texas white primaries. 654 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,519 We call them white primaries for a reason, right, it 655 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:34,880 had a political consequence. There was only you know, one 656 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,559 party in town where you actually had the opportunity to 657 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:40,239 elect a candidate, but it was only allowed that whites 658 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,679 participating in it. And the court told us in you know, 659 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,599 the nineteen thirties to the fifties, that's illegal or unconstitutional. 660 00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:49,800 The same is true here. But because our law sort 661 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,000 of treats them as different categories partisanship and race, it forces, 662 00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:58,639 in some ways lied against to kind of frame arguments 663 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:01,880 and theories around a world where it's only thinking about 664 00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:05,039 X or y, when in fact they're together. The complicated 665 00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:08,440 part of this comes forward in these cases called the 666 00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:13,239 racial gerrymanderin cases where the court is presented with this 667 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,880 claim that, well, the state took race too much into account. 668 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,920 What too much is we don't know, but the court 669 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,280 has told us if you draw really weird lines, and 670 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,960 the only way that you can explain it is race, 671 00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:27,360 then that's unconstitutional. Even in the nineteen nineties where Justice 672 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,239 Kennedy was around, he was presented with cases where I 673 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,079 could give you a compelling argument for why partisanship was 674 00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:38,719 the result that drove the crafting of those maps just 675 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,199 as much as race were. Because African Americans do vote 676 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,119 very heavily for Democrats, and whites in most of the 677 00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:49,960 South tend to vote Republican, there's an instance where that 678 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,880 gets more pronounced than others, and those are the places 679 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,400 where discrimination becomes the most volatile, I think factor to 680 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,519 take account of where you see crossover with white sometimes 681 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:03,559 voting Democrats and sometimes voting Republicans, or as you point out, 682 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,519 Hispanics moving one way or the other, that might be 683 00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:09,159 a lot more complicated. But where polarization is sort of 684 00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:12,679 the name of the game, that's you're not going to 685 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,599 be able to divorce those two. And I think in Texas, 686 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:17,719 depending on where you are in the state, you can 687 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,679 make much more of a claim about polarization based on 688 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,800 race than anything else. And so in some ways it's 689 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,079 a bit of a fiction to try to sort of 690 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:30,360 distill those but the law requires us to do it, 691 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,400 and I think that's why Texas is in the ridiculous 692 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,800 position now of trying to make the argument that oh, yeah, 693 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,199 it was all a party. It was like, well, if 694 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,679 you look at your you know, Republican roster, you're not 695 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,679 seeing many people of color. And so then the question 696 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,840 gets to one that I think is most relevant, which 697 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,280 is where's the growth in the state and are we 698 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,559 seeing a consummate uptick in growth of you know, districts 699 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:56,360 where people from those communities can direct opportunities for who 700 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,320 gets elected versus others, and if you're not seeing that, 701 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,199 and I think Texas this is a key case of it, 702 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,599 particularly where you've seen cities crafted like you know, the 703 00:39:03,599 --> 00:39:05,679 city of Austin, I don't need to tell you has 704 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,039 been you know, sliced in dice, you know, within an 705 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,320 inch of its leagh. But that's all in service to 706 00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:13,039 keeping a majority of supermajority the way that it is. 707 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,039 But that doesn't change the growth in the in the jurisdiction. 708 00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:18,000 I think that's the key thing to be thinking about, 709 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,320 and where that growth is is with people of color? 710 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:23,079 Speaker 1: Can I ask? Because I think there's also an argument 711 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,119 on the right that's like, you know, the voting Rights 712 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:27,800 Act was important. It was important during you know, Jim Crow, 713 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,440 during the civil rights movement. Are we just going to 714 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,639 have this go on forever? 715 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:32,119 Speaker 3: Right? 716 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,280 Speaker 1: And like what do you sort of say to that, 717 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,320 to the idea that, you know, maybe this has served 718 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,360 its purpose and we can all move on into post 719 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:41,079 racial America. 720 00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:43,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just add on there. One of the things 721 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:45,639 they make in their document cases, they make in their 722 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:48,519 documents around this lawsuit is that the Texas legislature in 723 00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:51,840 twenty twenty three was forty percent, to use their term, 724 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,960 non white right, which is significantly more diverse than the 725 00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:57,239 US Congress. 726 00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 3: It is. And you know, it's funny that, right, the 727 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:07,679 result of that map is due to voting rights enforcement. 728 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,440 So it's kind of weird to make the argument, as 729 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,280 they did in the Shelby County case that undid the 730 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,480 Section five of the Voting Rights Tech. Well, look around you. 731 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:16,719 The world is much more diverse. We don't need this anymore. 732 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,519 And you know, Justice Ginsburg made the quite the strong 733 00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,840 argument that, unfortunately was in the descent. When you're arguing that, 734 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,639 you know, the evidence that you're dry is evidence that 735 00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:26,960 you don't need an umbrella in the middle of a 736 00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,159 rain storm, and that's sort of, you know, silly thinking. 737 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,119 But I think the best evidence of this is just 738 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,159 looking at the way in which polarization as expressed in 739 00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:39,480 politics plays out and where you're seeing instances, and you're 740 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,320 seeing it in plenty of parts of Texas where people 741 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,559 of color are voting one way and they never find 742 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:47,039 common purpose with white people who vote in an entirely 743 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:50,000 different way. That means that our politics aren't the kind 744 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,239 of coalition building adventures that we would expect, and where 745 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,960 we're even going after districts that look like coalitions are 746 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000 sort of the name of the game. It really raises 747 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:02,400 a question about whether or not it's that you know, 748 00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:05,480 kind of moment where we think everybody's come together and 749 00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:09,679 decided to look on issues outside beyond race, or at 750 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,760 least in concert with other considerations. That doesn't seem to 751 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,800 be the politics as it's been played out in Texas 752 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:15,280 right now. 753 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: I wonder another thing just to side from this brief 754 00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:25,000 is that the state, citing the twenty twenty four Supreme 755 00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:28,800 Court case Alexander versus South Carolina State Conference of NAACP, 756 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,880 they say, basically, the state is entitled to a powerful 757 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,800 presumption of good faith right when if you can't, you know, 758 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,920 if you don't have the strong proof either way, you 759 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,360 assume that the state is doing the right thing. Here, 760 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,280 we are going into this term where it looks like 761 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,280 there's a pretty good chance that they're going to redraw 762 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,039 these maps. There is also a lot of evidence sort 763 00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,440 of just out there in the world that the political 764 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,280 motivations of this, or that the motivations of this are political, 765 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,760 you know, wanting to hold on to the twenty twenty 766 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,320 six US House in term elections. What do you see 767 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,280 like moving forward here? Do you see this because of 768 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,239 the legal climate we are in right now? Do you 769 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,079 see it as even if they do dramatically redraw these districts, 770 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:21,079 do you see it being difficult for plaintiff's civil rights 771 00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:23,760 groups and everything's to fight these maps, to overturn these 772 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:24,559 maps in the future. 773 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,159 Speaker 3: Right It's a really good question. I would in fact 774 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,840 tie this in some ways to the prior question you asked, 775 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,280 what does it mean to be in a place where 776 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,480 you don't need a voting rights Act? What we have 777 00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:36,920 right now? The case that you mentioned in Alexandria is 778 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,880 a court that seems to basically say, yeah, we shouldn't 779 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,960 question without a lot of compelling evidence, the sort of 780 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,840 good faith of state legislatures. Now you know that's in 781 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,880 the face of a lot of evidence suggesting to the 782 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,280 countrary that they weren't acting in good faith. But the 783 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,679 deeper question is, if a state is acting in good faith, 784 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,639 shouldn't you expect that the state be able to show 785 00:42:57,679 --> 00:42:59,679 and prove what they're doing. Shouldn't there be an open 786 00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,760 process that's where you see what goes in, Who gets 787 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,800 to present our arguments about why districts should be a 788 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,079 certain way, and you have people explain themselves. That's exactly 789 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:11,719 the opposite of what states like Texas engaged in and 790 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,719 their drawing of maps. At best, you'll have a hearing, 791 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,760 but it's a very quick hearing where people sit in, 792 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,000 they show up, they see a map, they vote on 793 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,800 the map, and that's done. You don't get public input. 794 00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:24,840 You don't hear who behind the scenes gave advice about 795 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,400 what to do and why all that stuff. Because of 796 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,000 decisions that have been reached by a lot of the 797 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,760 federal courts at present, including in the Fifth Circuit, have 798 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,239 walled off that information from plaintiffs. And to my view, 799 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:37,800 I mean we say this in other context, if you 800 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,119 don't have anything to hide, why not show it. This 801 00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:43,840 is a public proceeding that's supposed to benefit the public. 802 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,280 Right now, we're in a world where in a lot 803 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,199 of these cases, the state legislature has been entitled to 804 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,519 some crafted privilege that isn't contained anywhere in the constitution 805 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,280 that will prevent plaintiffs in these Section two lawsuits from 806 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,079 just even seeing who is in the room with you. 807 00:43:59,559 --> 00:44:03,159 Not only did you get the elected member get the 808 00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:08,000 ability to shield yourself from scrutiny in a lawsuit, anybody 809 00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:11,039 you talk to would also be if the courts get 810 00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:15,400 their way here, and that actually counteracts any suggestion that 811 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,280 good faith should be. In fact, this should be exactly 812 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,679 the place where in any other place in the law, 813 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,280 we would be really skeptical of taking at face value 814 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,480 what the state says after the fact. So, to my mind, 815 00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:32,519 you would expect to see more open processes, more engaged 816 00:44:32,639 --> 00:44:36,840 public comment, and actual explanation, which, by the way, is 817 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,840 what exactly happens when independent commissions draw maps. But the 818 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,400 state legislature could do this as well. But when they don't, 819 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,800 it defies logic to me to expect that we should 820 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,159 just take what you say is the reason you drew 821 00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:53,920 the map without any evidence at face value. But that's 822 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,039 what Texas basically is. 823 00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:58,639 Speaker 1: Arguing now, and certainly probably all of that is not 824 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,320 going to be improved by, you know, the speed at 825 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,119 which they're going to have to move through this process 826 00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:04,559 in this special session. 827 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 828 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 2: I just want to veer back into the politics very 829 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,239 quickly here, because I think it's also worth asking the 830 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,840 question will Democrats participate in this process? Right? So folks 831 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,079 will remember from two thousand and three or you know, 832 00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:21,639 other times where Democrats have left the state in order 833 00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:23,599 to break quorum and make it so it would be 834 00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:27,280 impossible to pass these maps. When I was in San 835 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,119 Antonio a few weeks ago speaking with two Democratic lawmakers 836 00:45:31,159 --> 00:45:33,840 at a Tributne event, I asked them this, and they 837 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,440 both very strongly, strongly hinted, you know, I see no 838 00:45:38,559 --> 00:45:43,760 reason why Democrats would ever even participate in this process. Well, 839 00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,639 what is in it for them? It's interesting though, this 840 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,840 is a I don't think anyone is happy that this 841 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,239 has happened. But the situation has changed since then because 842 00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,239 we had these catastrophic floods in Texas. Those have also 843 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,119 been added to the special special Special Session call both 844 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,320 flood relief and also like what can we do to 845 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,320 protect these communities going forward. There's all of a sudden 846 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,719 now something here in this special Session call that Democrats 847 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,599 are going to really feel like they need to be 848 00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:16,760 a part of and make sure they can get through, 849 00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:20,400 which in some ways hands Republicans a big bit of 850 00:46:20,519 --> 00:46:23,280 leverage here in terms of how they kind of get 851 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,920 this across. It's just another sort of interesting thing to 852 00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:29,320 watch as this process unfolds. 853 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,760 Speaker 1: Right and certainly, I mean I've heard from some Democrats 854 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,639 who say, well, the governor could do a lot of 855 00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:35,559 this on flood relief just himself through executive Well he's not. 856 00:46:35,679 --> 00:46:37,920 He's put it on the call, like you know, they're 857 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,079 going to have to be there if they want to, 858 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,559 you know, not sort of be forever painted with this 859 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:46,599 brush of like not supporting the flood relief exactly. Yeah, 860 00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,440 so I do think that is like a layer even 861 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,480 no one else was, you know, no one could have predicted. 862 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,639 Of course, that has really amplified all of this. Yeah, 863 00:46:57,679 --> 00:47:02,039 well special Session starts twenty first, you know, a little 864 00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:05,119 less than a week from today, expecting a big redistricting 865 00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:09,079 fight on that's going to involve you know, all levels 866 00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,519 of government straight up to the President, and a lot 867 00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,320 of eyes on that really really want to thank you 868 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,760 Kareem for joining us. This was a great conversation. You 869 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,960 can find the Trip Cast everywhere you get your podcasts. 870 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,000 Our producers are Rob and Chris and we will be 871 00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:26,079 back next week.