1 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,640 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittles, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,399 Federalist and your experience Shirpa on today's Quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,320 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:37,439 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,359 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,200 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:47,880 Our guest today is Andrew Langer, radio host and president 9 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:51,799 of the Institute for Liberty. Andrew joins us today to 10 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,159 talk about what free speech would look like under a 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,479 Harris Walls administration, fitting that we're addressing this topic on 12 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,640 Halloween and pretty scary stuff. Andrew, thanks so much for 13 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:04,319 joining us in the Federalist Radio Hour. 14 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: It is great to be here. There is a letter. 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: That is out there, signed by a number of conservatives 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,120 that drives home the concerns of a lot of conservatives 17 00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:20,480 in this country in terms of what they have been 18 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,879 burdened by to use the parlance of Kamala Harris thus far, 19 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:33,719 and what they fear will be deeper restrictions and perhaps 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,159 even graver issues with the first Amendment and speech under 21 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,920 the Harris Walls administration should that come to pass. Tell 22 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,319 me a little bit about that letter. 23 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:50,519 Speaker 3: Well, sure, and so you know, I wear a number 24 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,599 of different hats, and this is an issue that has 25 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:57,159 when its way through all of the work that I do. 26 00:01:58,599 --> 00:02:01,439 But you know, this is this is free speech is 27 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,640 one of these areas that has certainly come up to 28 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:08,120 great discussion in this election. You know, as we're talking 29 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,879 about things like protecting democracy. 30 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:10,199 Speaker 1: JD. 31 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: Vance probably said it best. 32 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: You know that this issue of censorship, which takes many forms, 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,680 it takes center stage in so much of this. And 34 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,879 it's ironic that a movement, the progressive movement, which was 35 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,800 built frankly on the backs of protecting the free speech 36 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,919 of every American to say what's on their mind without 37 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,879 fear of a retribution or reprisal, has essentially turned its 38 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,680 back on that principle. Is really evidenced by that moment 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,479 during the vice presidential debate where Tim Walls not only 40 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:45,599 said well, yeah, there are limits to free speech, he 41 00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:50,759 also used a very outdated trope in order to try 42 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,560 to make his incorrect point, which I immediately picked up 43 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:56,400 on and tweeted out about when can get into that if. 44 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: You want me. 45 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,479 Speaker 3: But the idea is that over the last so twenty 46 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,360 years or so, there has been a real concerted effort 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,039 on the part of the left to go after conservative 48 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:12,280 organizations to try to silence them. And one of the 49 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,599 ways that they want to do it is to go 50 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,879 after the donors to those organizations too, you know. 51 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,039 Speaker 2: And the goal is twofold, right. The goal is to. 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: Either dry up the source of money for these organizations 53 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:30,240 or to get folks to be bullied into not supporting 54 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,639 those organizations. And the reality is that it's a combination 55 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:33,439 of both those things. 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,039 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me, and we're going to get a 57 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:40,039 little bit further into that as we progress in our 58 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,479 conversation today. But it's interesting to me that the left, 59 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:46,319 the modern left, which of course I need to say, 60 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:52,400 looks nothing like the classic liberal you know, that we 61 00:03:52,759 --> 00:03:56,400 have seen in this country for many, many years and 62 00:03:56,439 --> 00:04:01,199 just kind of dried up post Viata War into the 63 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,840 seventies and the eighties into what the left wing of 64 00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:09,639 America is now. But just thinking about the tradition of 65 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,360 the classical liberal or liberal politics and the emphasis on 66 00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:21,240 free speech and free expression and those first principles of 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,360 our founders and how far they've strayed from those. It's 68 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:28,360 amazing to see where we are today with the American 69 00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:32,079 left as compared to where it was, say in the 70 00:04:32,199 --> 00:04:35,360 latter nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties. 71 00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:39,759 Speaker 3: Well, and that's an excellent jumping off point because a 72 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,519 lot of this is based and rooted in a very 73 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,839 famous nineteen fifty seven Supreme Court case NAACP versus Alabama. 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,800 And in that case, you know, the State of Alabama 75 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,839 wanted to get access to the donor lists of the NAACP, 76 00:04:57,079 --> 00:05:01,040 and the Supreme Court recognized the real threat here and 77 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,920 said in the decision, they're really the only good that 78 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,600 could come out of this. The only real reason why 79 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:10,279 the State of Alabama wanted access to this information was 80 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:13,680 so that they can harass the donors to the NAACP. 81 00:05:14,439 --> 00:05:16,720 And so you know, the Supreme Court rule, well, yeah, 82 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:19,240 the NAACP has a fundamental right to this list. 83 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: Right. 84 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: Let me let's take a quick step back here, because 85 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,199 I don't want to I want to make sure we're 86 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:26,279 all on the same page. So you know, in America, 87 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,160 we've decided that if you're if you have an organization 88 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:35,279 that is engaged in the effort to elect somebody to office. Well, 89 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,879 then we as a people have decided, well, that needs 90 00:05:37,879 --> 00:05:39,759 to be made public so the public is aware of 91 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,240 who is funding the various campaigns. I think gets obviously 92 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,480 much much more complicated than this, and donations to those 93 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,839 kinds of organizations are not tax deductible. 94 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,519 Speaker 2: But then you get into. 95 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 3: Organizations that are organized under section five oh one CEE 96 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,680 of the Internal Revenue Code. And again I don't want 97 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,759 to get too deep in the weeds, but there are 98 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:03,439 primarily three different kinds of organizations. There are trade associations. 99 00:06:03,439 --> 00:06:05,720 We don't need to deal with that today, but there 100 00:06:05,759 --> 00:06:09,639 are both advocacy organizations that are engaged with telling people 101 00:06:10,079 --> 00:06:13,480 about policies and the policies that they're for and against. 102 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:16,079 And then there are what are called research and education 103 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,639 and other kinds of charitable organizations that are engaged in 104 00:06:19,759 --> 00:06:22,759 just what we're talking about, a research and analysis, and 105 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,199 they can do a little bit of advocacy. Donations to 106 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:32,040 research and eduction ext deductible, and donors can remain secret. 107 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:35,439 Donors to the five oh one C four organizations the 108 00:06:35,519 --> 00:06:40,160 advocacy organizations, they too can remain secret, but donations to 109 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,759 them are not tax deductible. Now, the fact is that 110 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:51,560 the left wants access to the donor information of organizations 111 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,160 that are both research and education and advocacy organizations alike. 112 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,240 And we know the reason is because they want to 113 00:06:58,279 --> 00:06:59,759 harass them. But we can get into the history of 114 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,680 so of that in the modern era. But you know, 115 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,000 and then they try to obfuscate it all by calling 116 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,920 these dark money organizations and they misstate the purpose of 117 00:07:09,959 --> 00:07:12,839 these organizations. But again we can get into that in 118 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:13,879 greater de tail if you'd like it. 119 00:07:14,519 --> 00:07:17,439 Speaker 1: Indeed, because I find it interesting, I've been reporting on 120 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:19,920 this subject of free speech, this area of free speech 121 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,439 for a very long time, and I have mentioned this 122 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,240 often on this podcast. I saw one of the worst 123 00:07:27,279 --> 00:07:29,959 abuses of free speech in America in the state of 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,839 Wisconsin back in around two thousand and nine ten through 125 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:40,199 twenty thirteen. It's called the John Go Investigation, and it 126 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:47,199 was exactly this. We had leftist Democrat district attorneys in 127 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,480 the largest cities in Wisconsin coupling with left leaning bureaucratic 128 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:56,639 institutions what was known as the Government Accountability Board of 129 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,720 that of course, yes, and you know, they come with 130 00:07:59,759 --> 00:08:02,759 these kinds of names about accountability. But there was no 131 00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:08,480 accountability in these secret Star Chamber investigations, these John Do 132 00:08:08,639 --> 00:08:13,199 investigations that included pre dawn armed raids on the homes 133 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,040 of citizens, Conservative citizens, simply because they were engaging in 134 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:21,879 their First Amendment right to be involved in policy and 135 00:08:21,959 --> 00:08:27,759 politics in Wisconsin, in America. That investigation was ultimately, after 136 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,279 several years, ruled unconstitutional. But the process was the punishment, 137 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,879 as has has been noted many many times. And what 138 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,000 I found in all of this is the left continued 139 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,759 to talk about the term dark money, dark money and 140 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:49,279 the rights dark money. Today in twenty twenty four, the 141 00:08:49,519 --> 00:08:52,639 left is dominating the dark money space. 142 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:53,879 Speaker 2: So is this not. 143 00:08:55,799 --> 00:08:57,919 Speaker 1: What we have seen from the left and trying to 144 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,399 go after so called dark money on the right. Wouldn't 145 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:03,840 this come back to bite them in the ankles? 146 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: You would? 147 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,159 Speaker 3: You would hope so, But they're not a feared of 148 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,279 this right this. It's interesting because it gets into something 149 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,840 that I'd written and it comes back to mind in 150 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:16,639 what yeah, early November, right before the election in twenty sixteen, 151 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,559 about Donald Trump. I was a Trump skeptic going into 152 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,000 all of this, but I said, you know, the greatest 153 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:29,480 threat to American liberty is the expansive use of executive 154 00:09:29,519 --> 00:09:32,120 branch power. But the point is I said, well, maybe, 155 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,600 just maybe we have an opportunity here. If the left 156 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:37,919 is so concerned about abuse of power, maybe just maybe 157 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,559 we can use this opportunity to rein in that executive power. 158 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,799 Of course, it never came to pass, because in the end, 159 00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:48,000 what the left wants is that power. It's the same 160 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,480 reason why in the wake of the various abuses of 161 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:53,320 power by the federal government in the nineteen sixties and 162 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,080 into the early nineteen seventies, despite you know, the Church 163 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Committee looking at the abuses of the intelligence community, how 164 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,519 the FBI was targeting legitimate political activity, the left never 165 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,240 took the next step to rein in that power. Know 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,120 what they what they did was they wanted to make 167 00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:11,799 sure that that power was going to be reserved to 168 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:15,039 them when they would take office. And so that was 169 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,279 the seeds of the weaponization of this the seeds of lawfare. 170 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,519 One of my favorite examples, not to the filibuster, here 171 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:26,399 is what happened, you know, in the last few years 172 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,159 or a few years ago to the Competitive Enterprise Institute, 173 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,320 an organization that I worked for in the early two thousands. 174 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,320 Absolutely an organization that is dealing with, you know, climate 175 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:41,120 policy and skepticism about climate policy and asking important questions. 176 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,879 Right because even if we were to assume that climate 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,440 change was real and it was man made, you know, 178 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:49,440 how we go about addressing it is open for legitimate 179 00:10:49,519 --> 00:10:51,159 debate and discussion. 180 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 2: As it should be. 181 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 3: CEI, you know, found itself and its donors being harassed 182 00:10:57,639 --> 00:11:07,200 by varioustorneys general and and federal prosecutors demanding access to correspondence, 183 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,639 demanding access to donor lists because they wanted to prosecute 184 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:12,960 CEI for fraud. 185 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,279 Speaker 2: That was it. But you're absolutely correct. 186 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 3: The punishment was the process forcing them to spend money 187 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:22,159 on this, the chilling effect it could have on donors, 188 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,720 all of those things it's bound. 189 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: Up in, and it has. It has a very pronounced 190 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:29,879 chilling effect on donors. I remember the CEI case. It 191 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,279 was one of the worst, just kitchen sink subpoenas thrown 192 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,720 at the organization simply for asking important questions that a 193 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,840 lot of Americans were asking and continue to ask. And 194 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:43,840 I think in the same vein. At the same time, 195 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,440 we have to talk about what happened under the Obama 196 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,519 administration against these organizations. You're talking about these five oh one, 197 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,440 C three, and C four organizations that either advocate or 198 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:01,000 serve as educational entities. They were targeted. Think about Lois 199 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,600 Learner and the targeting that went on. But it seems 200 00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:07,600 to me this current regime is just an extension of 201 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:08,799 that regime. 202 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. They just build on it. And as 203 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,200 I as you and I I think have both been 204 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,559 in this business long enough for these businesses, long enough 205 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,440 that we know the way it used to be right, 206 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,440 which is when when an agency, when an administration was 207 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,840 caught doing something wrong right, and they were caught and 208 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,919 publicly excoriated, then you know, the person who did it 209 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,360 would be fired, there would be some kind of an apology, 210 00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:34,039 and the White House would take steps to change the 211 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,000 behavior of the agency so that abuse of power couldn't 212 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,320 happen again. But under Obama what happened. Lois Learner didn't 213 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,399 get censured. In fact, she was promoted. The other folks 214 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,720 around her were promoted. There was never any apology. And 215 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:48,799 this is the most important part of it. Mat the 216 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,759 Obama administration turned around and tried to actually implement the 217 00:12:53,799 --> 00:12:57,399 policy that had led to the harassment of these organizations. 218 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,720 They actually proposed changes to the Internal re Revenue Code 219 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:03,559 in terms of donor disclosure and how they were going to. 220 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,639 Speaker 2: Go about doing this. And it was not just the 221 00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:07,240 efforts of. 222 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:13,399 Speaker 3: Conservative organizations, but again the NAACP of the NAACP versus 223 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:17,519 Alabama case, who came out and said, hey, Obama administration, 224 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,559 if you enact your proposal, it is going to make 225 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,120 our work impossible to do. And remember we're the name 226 00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:27,000 party in this case that we're all talking about here. 227 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,919 And so between the NAACP's comments to the Obama administration 228 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,639 and the fact that this is complicated, stay with me 229 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,279 for a second. More than twice the number of people 230 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,480 who had commented on any IRS rulemaking in the previous 231 00:13:40,519 --> 00:13:44,679 seven years combined filed comments with US that overwhelmed the 232 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,320 IRS's docket. They really were put behind the apall and listen. 233 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,639 As much as like to say it was the numbers, 234 00:13:49,639 --> 00:13:52,559 it really was the NAACP that was able to step 235 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,639 in there and protect these principles. 236 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: It was that case, that famous fifty seven case Alibama 237 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:06,399 that I think resonated in that particular time period the 238 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,320 John Do investigation, As I mentioned, I remember Hans von 239 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:14,480 Spakowski of the Heritage Foundation, you know, a former DOJ attorney, 240 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:21,039 civil rights attorney, election law expert. He constantly cited this 241 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,440 case as the left continued to go after right of 242 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:30,000 center organizations in this country. Now, I think as we 243 00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:34,840 look at what was happening in twenty twenty, during before 244 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,120 and during that election campaign and what we've seen afterward, 245 00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:47,559 now the scariest stuff is coming out with organizations that 246 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:54,399 are supposed to be defenders of the First Amendment rights 247 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,879 because they make their money on First Amendment rights now 248 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,000 have been colle voting with the government to take away 249 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,879 First Amendment rights. What a strange Eldest Huxley style brave 250 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,679 New world we we uh inhabit now? 251 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: Right? 252 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,559 Speaker 3: I mean this listen, this gets into this gets into 253 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,799 the you know, the n DOUBLE, the NAAC people, the 254 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,000 A C l U just sort of turning around and 255 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,679 they've done some good things, They've been on the right 256 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,039 side of certain things at certain points in time, but 257 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,320 you know, sort of repudiating this idea that it's the 258 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,000 most uh uh, it's the speech we most vehemently disagree 259 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,320 with that needs the greatest amount of protection. You know, 260 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,919 they they've essentially thrown up their hands under enormous pressure 261 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,039 from their allied organizations. You used to be able to 262 00:15:42,039 --> 00:15:44,480 count on the end of I keep saying this, mad, 263 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:46,240 I'm sorry about that. Used to be able to count 264 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:48,840 on the on the A c l U to turn 265 00:15:48,919 --> 00:15:52,840 around and and sort of defend the right principles at 266 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,679 the right time. And you can't reliably defend or depend 267 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,000 on them anymore. You know, the NAACP was one of 268 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:04,320 the first organizations out there to sort of demonize the 269 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:08,080 Tea party groups that were engaging in this rightful speech. 270 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,279 And so this is you know, this is where we are. 271 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:15,279 It is about the hierarchical nature of the leftist organizations. 272 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:18,600 They get their marching orders and you know, they have 273 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:21,799 their ideological goals in mind, and they don't let these 274 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:24,720 other pretty things like like the First Amendments standing their way. 275 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,919 Speaker 1: Why though, how, I mean, how did this happen? When 276 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:34,159 did this really take shape? You mentioned the ac LU, 277 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:37,720 and I think about you noted over and over again, 278 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,120 where we have the kinds of violations that the old 279 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,399 your father's ac LU so to speak, you know, would 280 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,960 have been engaged in pre dawn raids on the homes 281 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:56,039 of citizens over election law complaints. The ACLU, you know, 282 00:16:56,679 --> 00:16:59,600 decades ago, would have been there. They were absolutely silent. 283 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,240 In fact, they were part of the finger pointing operation 284 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:07,359 at the time. What happened, When did this happen and why? Well, listen, 285 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,400 I think it was it was gradual over time. 286 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:11,279 Speaker 2: I listen. 287 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist in this, 288 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:15,079 but you know, at the end of the day, right, 289 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,640 we all know that there have been outside forces that 290 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,519 have been working diligently to sort of turn the left 291 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:25,480 into something that it didn't used to be, really, to 292 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:31,079 take on that more authoritarian Marxist way of looking at 293 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:33,720 the world where it really is about the consolidation of 294 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:36,960 power and using that power to punish your enemies as 295 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,519 opposed to a general welfare that it used to be 296 00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:45,079 all about. But you know, listen, some of it has 297 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,720 to do with the advent of the PC movement right 298 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:50,880 and the idea of political correctness and you have to 299 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,960 say things in the right way and the refinement of 300 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,440 that over time. Sure, And some of it has to 301 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,799 do with right wing organizations getting much better and much 302 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,960 at how they can go out. 303 00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: And reach people. 304 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 3: I think some of it has to do with the 305 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,119 anger that many folks on the left felt in the 306 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:13,039 wake of the two thousand election and then George W. 307 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,240 Bush winning re election in two thousand and four. So 308 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,640 all of those things together, you know, it led to 309 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,119 this refinement over time. And you know, I would say 310 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,759 that as the right got smarter on communication, the left 311 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:31,079 got smarter at engaging in you know, the warfare there 312 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,200 and as you push and what they are so smarter 313 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:38,640 about is being able to push for the ever expansion 314 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,519 of federal power and using that power to reach their 315 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,359 ideological ends. That was certainly you know something you know, 316 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,240 you watched it during the Obama administration, how the effect 317 00:18:50,319 --> 00:18:54,839 of the Obama administration was at expanding the regulatory state 318 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,440 and using their tools creatively to go after the right 319 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:04,359 that has been refined and expanded on by the Biden administration. 320 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:05,920 I mean, one of the things we haven't talked about 321 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,720 real quick is something called Operation Chokepoint Sure, which was 322 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:16,039 an effort in you know, twenty thirteen twenty fourteen timeframe 323 00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:19,559 on the part of the Obama administration to combat what 324 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,400 they were calling fraudulent behavior. That's what they that's what 325 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,000 the pretext was, and they were going to crack down 326 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:29,079 on fraudulent behavior in a credit card industry, and they 327 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:31,640 were going to use it to crack down on predatory 328 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,960 lending on the short term high risk lending industry otherwise 329 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,680 known as payday lenders, things like that, but they wound 330 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:41,240 up using it as an ideological tool to go after 331 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:47,640 things like a gun and ammunition manufacturers and dealers and 332 00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:48,000 you know. 333 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:49,799 Speaker 2: And the idea was that they wouldn't do. 334 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 3: It directly, they would go and pressure credit card payment 335 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,680 processors and banks to shut down the accounts of these 336 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,960 entities in these industries and choke off their cash flow. 337 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,119 Now to that end, you know, one of the things 338 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,640 in Operation Chokepoint was to go after the fraudulent behavior 339 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,799 of small nonprofit organizations. How you define small, I don't know. 340 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,240 But if you can say, for instance, that an organization 341 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:17,599 that is engaging in asking questions about climate change and 342 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,519 climate skepticism, and your administration has declared that man made 343 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:24,759 climate change is settled science science, then you turn around 344 00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:27,640 and you declare any questioning of that to be fraudulent activity, 345 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,640 and all of a sudden, you're you know, brought into this. 346 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,880 So you know, that's that's how these things happen. It's 347 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,720 it's a way listen, the lawfare against President Trump and 348 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,680 the cobbling together of legal theory upon legal theory, you know, 349 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:44,319 to to reach a con That's what the Left has 350 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,279 become much better at. 351 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,799 Speaker 2: Yes it is because we say it is. 352 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,039 Speaker 1: And that's what the left has done taking you know, 353 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:59,119 the chapter and verse from a Lenski and his variators. Yeah, absolutely, 354 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:02,039 you know, as a press, as a Loventi barrier, the 355 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,799 head of the secret police in Russia under under Stalin. 356 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: Right, show me the man and I'll show you. 357 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,079 Speaker 3: The crime is exactly rhensive law that really is amorphos 358 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,480 and is defined by whoever is in power. Well can 359 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,599 be used against anybody you want to turn it against. 360 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,319 Speaker 1: And that is exactly what we are talking about. And 361 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,599 the stakes couldn't be higher. 362 00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 4: Of course, the supermarket doesn't lie. The watched Out on 363 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,519 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps 364 00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:32,200 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 365 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,200 it affects your wallet. Latest report show more people are 366 00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:38,920 changing where they're buying their groceries, heading to box stores 367 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,839 like Walmart. Goes to show that food and energy prices 368 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,200 have yet to go down. Whether it's happening in DC 369 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,400 or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 370 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: Be informed. 371 00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 372 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,160 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 373 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: And our guest today is Andrew Langer, radio host, president 374 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,519 of the Institute for Liberty. Andrew joining us to talk 375 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:03,200 about what free speech just might look like under a 376 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,599 Harris Walls administration. We know in large part because meet 377 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,000 the new boss, same as the old boss. 378 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: As it were, literally getting ready to quote that song tomorrow? 379 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:15,799 Speaker 2: Am I ready? 380 00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: You can't beat a good old fashioned who quote, that's 381 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,480 for sure. 382 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:21,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. 383 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: And I want to talk a bit more about the 384 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,920 statement that was put out again, the Statement of Principles 385 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,240 opposing weaponization of nonprofit donor list, and that's really what 386 00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,079 this is about. We're talking about this, as you just mentioned, 387 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:39,079 you know, Operation Choke Point and its aims and its goals, 388 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,000 and you know, I think of it in the same 389 00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:44,640 way that we've seen over the last four years in 390 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,000 this country, Operation choke Point, but brought to bear on 391 00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:53,839 social media. So dealign with the facebooks of the world 392 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,440 and the previous twitters and the Googles and all of 393 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,759 that sort of thing, and it gets into speech. But 394 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:02,119 you mention here, I want to read just a little 395 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,640 bit of the statement. The freedom to privately join with 396 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,079 like minded Americans in groups that promote shared beliefs has 397 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,160 been vital to the success of the conservative movement. In 398 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,799 today's era of cancel culture, biased media, political violence, and 399 00:23:19,839 --> 00:23:23,839 growing political divides, these rights are even more essential to 400 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,079 safeguard free speech against the political establishment. Every citizen must 401 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,960 be free to privately support ideas and causes they believe in. 402 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,279 How can that be if the largest vehicles for the 403 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,680 espousing of those beliefs are shut down to them. 404 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:44,759 Speaker 2: Right, And that's exactly it. 405 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: It gets to this principle not enunciated in this statement, 406 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:51,319 but one that I've talked about quite a bit, which 407 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,079 is we need to be better at enunciating as a people, 408 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,000 the idea that that which the federal government is prohibited 409 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,319 from doing via the constitution, it cannot engage in extra 410 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,519 constitutionally through other means. 411 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:03,799 Speaker 2: Right, you know. 412 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 3: But on the on the speech side of it, right, 413 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,960 the idea we know that the federal government can't turn 414 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,960 around and out and out sensor speech without some very 415 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,160 good reason. We know that, you know, the limitations for 416 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,759 free speech are you know, bounded by how any right, 417 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:21,960 the exercise of any right is bounded by whether your 418 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,319 exercise at that right harms somebody else. 419 00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: Right, that's the how just law is born. 420 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 3: But the point is that the government, we know, the 421 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,960 federal government is prohibited by the First Amendment from directly 422 00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:38,319 silencing you know, political speech. Well, they also can't turn 423 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:44,039 around and start pressuring platforms to to sensor speech as well, 424 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,400 and then can't turn around and say, well, it wasn't 425 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:47,240 us doing it. 426 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:48,079 Speaker 2: We didn't. 427 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 3: We didn't censor Andrew Langer's you know, Facebook wall. It 428 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:57,079 was Facebook that censored Andrew Langer's Facebook wall. So, you know, 429 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,240 that's that's one of the great problems that we have here. 430 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:02,279 I mean, we do have to have a greater conversation 431 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:05,240 as a people about what it means to be the 432 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,039 public square and how a public square has changed. I'm 433 00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:10,599 not a big fan of getting the federal government in 434 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,880 the business of regulating content platforms, because again, I think 435 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,359 that's a that's a double edged sword. But at the 436 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,599 very least we need to have a conversation about just 437 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,680 what this means and what the federal government is permitted 438 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,079 to do and is prohibited. 439 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: From doing, certainly, And you mentioned it earlier in our 440 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,799 in the conversation, Tim Walls at that debate famously invoking 441 00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:33,480 the you can't yell fire in a. 442 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,519 Speaker 3: Crowded theater line. This bothered me to no end. And 443 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,200 it's because it, you know, it evinces, you know, such 444 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,039 a misunderstanding. And I kind of wish jd Vance had 445 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:45,960 a better understanding of it as well, because he could 446 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,079 have attacked on that, you know, understanding that case, the 447 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,759 Shank case, which was a nineteen twenty Supreme Court case 448 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:54,960 in which the federal government was trying to I mean, 449 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,640 this is the irony of all this. I mean, if 450 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,599 Tim Walls knew anything about the case, he would be 451 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,160 he would be would we wouldn't saying this, but you know, 452 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,119 in which an avowed communist was being silenced by the 453 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,440 federal government under the. 454 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,759 Speaker 2: Alien Sedition Act I think was the Alien Sedition Act. 455 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,599 Speaker 3: Or whatever it was, and you know, the Supreme Court 456 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,000 upheld it, you know, on the on the grounds that 457 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,799 it was seditious activity, and then later obviously overturned by 458 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,799 by you know, later Supreme. 459 00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: Court case law by the way. 460 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 3: Also one of the hallmarks of understanding why starry decisis. 461 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,599 Speaker 2: Is not the not the thing that the left really 462 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:29,559 ought to believe that it is. 463 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 3: The point is it was bad law in the nineteen 464 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,359 twenties and it was overturned later on. And so you know, 465 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,359 the left needs to understand that, yeah, you can yell 466 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,319 fire in a crowded theater, and even if you couldn't 467 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,519 yell fire in a crowded theater, it's a bad or 468 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:46,920 even if it's a bad idea to do it, it's 469 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,640 a bad idea to invoke this as case law because 470 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,680 of the fact circumstances surrounding it. 471 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: No, the reality is bad speech or speech you don't 472 00:26:57,559 --> 00:26:58,240 like is more speech. 473 00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:00,319 Speaker 3: Let me give you a really good example here, right, 474 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,680 And this is part of what drives the left up 475 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,519 the wall and part of the reason why they are 476 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:07,720 so aggressive about this. You know, Joe Biden gets out 477 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,319 there and he calls, you know, the supporters of Donald Trump. 478 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,519 He calls them garbage. Of course, he walks it back, says, 479 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,839 that's not what he meant. The bottom line is he 480 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,359 said what he said, and it's out there, right, And 481 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,160 what does Donald Trump do well? Donald Trump takes it 482 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,240 and holds it up. First of all, you know, he 483 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:28,319 defends his constituency, but then he holds it up to 484 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,920 ridicule and he exposes it for the bad idea that 485 00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:32,440 it is. 486 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: That's the way free speech is supposed to work. 487 00:27:35,519 --> 00:27:37,519 Speaker 3: You say something I don't like, well, I'm going to 488 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:40,200 hold it to ridicule and therefore show it has no 489 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:40,920 power over me. 490 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,519 Speaker 1: Then he uses a big garbage truck to do it. Yes, Yes, 491 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:47,680 which is classic Donald Trump. 492 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 3: Of course, my favorite right now is the version of 493 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,880 the Gadsden flag where you know, don't put on me 494 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,759 flag that instead of having a snake in the middle, 495 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:56,119 has a black garbage bag in the middle. 496 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: I think, oh, for sure. Yeah, lots of memes. 497 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: You see, we are we are communicating and we are 498 00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:03,720 allowed to do that. 499 00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: You know. 500 00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: I see an Oscar the Grouch Sesame street meme, you know, 501 00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:10,960 coming out of the garbage and talking about how Joe 502 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,400 Biden feels about the half of the American electorate. You know, 503 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,920 I laugh at that, but there's a good point to it. 504 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: Now. 505 00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 3: I wish hold on now, I wish I'd use the 506 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,599 Oscar the Grouch song I Love Trash on the show yes, out. 507 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:29,559 Speaker 1: You know, I've long argued that we should have some 508 00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:33,880 you know, some occasional bumper music that that is relevant 509 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:36,240 to our segments, and that would be perfect for it, 510 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,440 because we'll have to deal with that in production meetings 511 00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:40,640 or post production meetings. 512 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: But no, I bring this up. 513 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: Those the memes and now the argument I've had this 514 00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:51,559 conversation about artificial intelligence. And remember the what we we've 515 00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:55,960 seen in this election cycle. We have a governor the 516 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,400 state of California working with a leftist legislature it wants 517 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,759 to closed down you know, these this phony ad that's 518 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,680 up there using you know, Kamala Harris's voice in a 519 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:16,039 very humorous way, clearly a humorous way parody, and now 520 00:29:16,039 --> 00:29:18,920 we have a war on parody that's going on in America. 521 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:20,759 Speaker 2: Free and parody. 522 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,759 Speaker 3: Is such an important element of this. It's so funny 523 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,519 because you know, last night on the Jimmy Kimmel's show, 524 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,240 he went out there and he and he said, well, 525 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:32,680 I think you know, Trump supporters should vote late. They 526 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,920 should vote on Wednesday or Thursday next week. And somebody 527 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,960 pointed out, you know, if they turned that into a 528 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,599 meme and put it out there, you know, Jimmy Kimmel 529 00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:43,960 would be would be a helld liable under California law 530 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,119 for this, and obviously no, we want Jimmy Kimble to 531 00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:50,640 be protected. This is a wholesale different I will tell 532 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,599 you something. I am having a real hard time. There 533 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,400 is there is some satire out there these days that 534 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,319 is so good that you just don't know if it's serious. 535 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: And I think that's the way it's supposed to be. 536 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,680 I think that's what we want, frankly. 537 00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: You know, the other part of the problem here is 538 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,759 that the left has come down and said they they 539 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,000 don't think that their constituency is smart enough to recognize, 540 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:18,559 you know, what's real and what isn't. Maybe they're more susceptible, 541 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,880 you know though they start talking about QAnon, you know, 542 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,799 and the folks who sort of believe in the conspiracy 543 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:28,640 theories in QAnon. But the reality is they've got their 544 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,759 bluing on adherents who I don't think are nearly as 545 00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:35,359 sophisticated as other folks who just sort of believe everything 546 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,079 they're given and don't think empirically about it. And then 547 00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,440 I'm saying we need to expect more of our citizen ry, 548 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:44,920 right Michael Douglas and the American President said it best. 549 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,359 Speaker 2: You know, you got to want it. This is hard stuff. 550 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:52,079 Speaker 1: Here, Yes, yes it is. And doesn't that speak to 551 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:59,200 kind of the leftist belief system, a top down kind 552 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,279 of system, you know, patriarch or in their case, a 553 00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:09,119 matriarch or however they wanted to find the sexuality the 554 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,039 gender of it these days, but you know that's that's 555 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,680 the old Marxist communist way, the Central Committee kind of 556 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,799 style of thinking. So we've talked a lot about where 557 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:26,160 speech is today. We face, though, is something I think 558 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,640 we really need to take a look at. Where do 559 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:36,400 you see a Harris Walls administration on this front? Because 560 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,680 we've heard over and over again about the new and 561 00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:46,680 reinvented Kamala Harris. She's not going to be Joe Biden's 562 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,799 policy keeper. Do you agree or disagree with her change 563 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:52,920 heart so to speak? 564 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's exactly it, you know, building on 565 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:00,200 the idea that these ideas get refined over time. And 566 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:02,640 given what we saw what they did to Donald Trump 567 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,400 over the course of the last three and a half years, 568 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,240 there is every expectation that they will make good on 569 00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:12,359 a whole host of the tactics before, and I think 570 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,119 it starts with this issue of fraud and redefining fraud. 571 00:32:18,279 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: You know, we've seen over the last three and a half. 572 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:23,279 Speaker 3: Years what Lena Kahan has done for the most part, 573 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:26,079 and every once in a while she's she's you know, 574 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,119 what she does is right and well within the mission 575 00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:31,400 of the FTC. But the Federal Trade Commission is engaged 576 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:36,319 in massive amounts of ideological warfare against its opponents, most 577 00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:40,079 notably going after Elon Musk and going after a Twitter 578 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:42,519 and standing the way. In fact, I believe it was 579 00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:46,200 the House Judiciary Committee that just released a report on this. 580 00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:51,240 You can expect that, and you can expect the mobilization 581 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:55,440 of US attorneys on this engaging in not the same 582 00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:58,240 kind of legal you know, lawfairs that have been done 583 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,960 against Donald Trump, but different kinds. Right, So again you 584 00:33:02,079 --> 00:33:05,079 go after folks who are vaccine skeptics, you know, and 585 00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:07,920 who are asking questions about COVID, or who are asking 586 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,319 questions about climate change, or who are asking questions about 587 00:33:11,599 --> 00:33:15,119 what's going on in Central Europe or any place else. 588 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:18,920 That this administration is having an ideological battle right on 589 00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:23,799 issues having to do with life. And that's how they 590 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:27,160 sort of create the nexus for the federal government to 591 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,480 go after them. That's the other thing about this administration 592 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:33,799 that has been astounding to me is what we've called, 593 00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:36,559 and me and Wayne Cruz over at CEI and a 594 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,440 handful of others, the whole of government approach to their 595 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,720 ideological goals, which is they have been incredibly creative in 596 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,640 using multiple agencies, not the usual suspects to go after 597 00:33:48,839 --> 00:33:51,720 organizations and entities and ideas that they have an ideological 598 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,799 animus against. So we can certainly see that. You know, thankfully, 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,640 we have a Supreme Court case a couple of years 600 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,480 ago Americans for Prosperity Foundation vi. Banta was originally Americans 601 00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:07,480 for Prosperity Foundation vi. Harris because she was the Attorney 602 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,119 General of California, which dealt with the California law about this. 603 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,519 And the Supreme Court thankfully is on the record recently 604 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:20,039 upholding the rights of organizations to engage and have you know, 605 00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:25,480 donors give to them anonymously. But under a Harris Waltz administration, 606 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,440 you know, who knows what they will try to do. 607 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,360 And I'm sorry that seems like a cop out answer. 608 00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,440 They will go after it. On the issue of fraud. 609 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,079 They will work to expand the courts. They will use 610 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,760 one of my favorites, Matt real quick. You know, nobody 611 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,159 ever thought this was going to happen, but the Obama administration, 612 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,960 this is no joking, go look it up, used the 613 00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:50,880 resources of the National Cancer Institute to produce a report 614 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,760 to attack the Tea Party movement as a movement because 615 00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:57,159 they felt that the Tea Party movement was being funded 616 00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:59,360 by big tobacco, even though the Tea Party movement didn't 617 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,840 take any fans on tobacco use. Nevertheless, right, so you 618 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,639 can expect kind of and I'm going to use this term, 619 00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:08,960 I don't mean it as a compliment. They are going 620 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,360 to be creative as in terms of how they go 621 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,000 about doing this. 622 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,599 Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting that these are the same folks talking 623 00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:21,559 about how our democracy is on the line and the 624 00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:26,639 selection that they proposed to be the defenders and protectors 625 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:32,000 of democracy from Donald Trump and conservatives. And then you 626 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,280 cite all of the things that you've just mentioned, not 627 00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,280 in the things that we didn't really talk about was, 628 00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:42,960 you know, the Banana Republic style weaponization of the Justice 629 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,639 Department to go again to go up against political enemies 630 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,920 but their political enemies are not just Donald Trump, they 631 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,639 are conservatives who don't agree with them. But let me 632 00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:58,119 ask you this, in all fairness, what does Donald Trump JD. 633 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,119 Van's administration look like for the First Amendment, the idea 634 00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:04,800 of free speech, free association? 635 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,079 Speaker 3: Now, listen, I mean, I think jad Vince has made 636 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:09,119 it very very clear. I mean, do I think Donald 637 00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:10,679 Trump is a First Amendment scholar? 638 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: No? 639 00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:14,159 Speaker 3: But I think Donald Trump knows first hand what happens 640 00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:17,199 when you speak out and how the mighty hand of 641 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,800 the establishmentarian elites can reach down and make life miserable 642 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:26,000 for you. But Jade Vince as someone who recognizes and 643 00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:29,800 has articulated this to the end degree on the debate stage. 644 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:33,119 So I think we're in We're in great hands here. 645 00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 2: You know. 646 00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: Again, recognizing that at the end of the day, all 647 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,199 rights are balanced out. 648 00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:40,119 Speaker 2: The exercise of all rights. 649 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,199 Speaker 3: Are balanced out by how the exercise of that right 650 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,039 impacts other people. So, as always right, my right to 651 00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:50,199 free speech is limited to how is limited by how 652 00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:52,079 it might harm you. So I can't out and out 653 00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:55,320 lie about you. I can't spread rumors about you. I 654 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,840 can't do things that will damage your reputation and you 655 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,599 have to, you know, show me and show a court 656 00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:06,039 where harm has been committed. But that's the point. In 657 00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:09,400 the end, we have the most expansive you of free speech, 658 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,760 and I believe that Trump advance, especially given the fact 659 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,599 that we we've already had four years of a Trump administration. 660 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,400 They didn't attack the First Amendment one I owed, at 661 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,800 least not as clear as I can tell. So I 662 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,400 have no reason to think that there's going to be 663 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,960 any kind of new effort in that regard. 664 00:37:25,639 --> 00:37:28,159 Speaker 1: So a final question for you on all of this, 665 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,239 and we've referenced it over the course of this conversation. 666 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,840 You have It's one thing to have a government in 667 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,159 administration a regime. 668 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,559 Speaker 2: Behave the way it has with basic. 669 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: Rights First Amendment rights and what we've seen with Biben 670 00:37:48,519 --> 00:37:49,840 Harris in this administration. 671 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,599 Speaker 2: But it is altogether different. 672 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: To be in a period of time where you have journalists, 673 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,519 you have a corporate media that is cheering on abuses 674 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,679 against First Amendment rights. So no matter who wins this election, 675 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,920 you still have a what I like to call an 676 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,079 accomplss media that is very much complicit in the sort 677 00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:24,920 of abuses we've been talking about. What happens if Harris wins, 678 00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:29,840 what happens if Trump wins to that complicit media, well, listen. 679 00:38:29,639 --> 00:38:32,599 Speaker 3: I think the you know, the complicit media goes along 680 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:35,639 with whatever happens under under Harris. They're not curious, they're 681 00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:40,239 not investigating, and it will be a complete upholding of 682 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,679 their value in their own eyes as a as part 683 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480 of this process, and you know, let's take it even 684 00:38:48,559 --> 00:38:52,039 a step further back, right, it becomes a feather in 685 00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:55,880 the cap of the folks who run journalism institutions around 686 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,760 the country who have abandoned and I'll go in too 687 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,920 far to say abandon ethics, the principles of ethics, but 688 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,719 certainly the principles by which journalists were supposed to operate 689 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,360 in terms of holding the powerful up to being accountable 690 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,719 in all of these things. You know, that goes and continues. 691 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:19,920 You know, the thing about the Trump and Vance, the 692 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,519 best thing that they can do is make sure that 693 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:25,880 the various institutions that do serve as being checks on 694 00:39:26,119 --> 00:39:29,639 power are still out there, whether it's AM talk radio 695 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,639 or making sure that the various platforms that are out 696 00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:36,440 there are And let me be really clear about this, 697 00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:39,039 I think one of the most important things that the 698 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,559 Vance or the Trump Vance administration can do is to 699 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:48,039 peel back exactly how the Biden administration was pressure. The 700 00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:52,119 Biden Harris administration was pressuring various platforms to censor or 701 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:55,079 otherwise de platform or shadow banner or whatever you want 702 00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:58,719 to call it citizens for speaking their minds out and 703 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,559 holding them accountable, holding the officials accountable in that way, 704 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,079 and telling the story so that we know not to 705 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:07,920 do it again, whether or not they go and they. 706 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,199 Speaker 2: I get very nervous when. 707 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:13,639 Speaker 3: We start talking about legislation or regulation to sort of 708 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,679 deal with that. But I think part of it is 709 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:18,599 telling the story. I think the American people really do, 710 00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:23,559 to a greater extent understand the various biases in what's 711 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:26,840 going on out there. You know, we're humans. We have 712 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,039 the ability to detect cognitive dissonance, right, we have that 713 00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:33,679 out there. We just need somebody to tell us why 714 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,320 we're feeling that way, you know, to sort of put 715 00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:39,559 a label on it for us. You are one of 716 00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:44,360 the many liberty advocate signers of the Statement of Principles 717 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,639 supposing weaponization of nonprofit donor list Where can our listeners 718 00:40:48,679 --> 00:40:51,480 find this statement? How can we sure it's a protect 719 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,920 protect Conservative Voices dot Com is how you find it. 720 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 2: It's the easiest way to do it, you know. 721 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 3: For me, you follow me on Twitter at Andrew Underscore 722 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:02,480 or x or whatever they call it now because I'm 723 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,599 you know, I do a lot of regulatory work as 724 00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:06,400 well from my work with CPAC. I would love to 725 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:07,800 have folks find that there too. 726 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: I am the reporter known as the former reporter X's 727 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,119 that's how all of these things are done these days, 728 00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:18,440 I suppose. I want to thank my guest today, Andrew Langer, 729 00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:22,800 radio host and president of the Institute for Liberty. Thanks 730 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,320 so much for joining us on The Federalist Radio Hour. 731 00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:28,960 My absolute pleasure. You've been listening to another edition the 732 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,159 Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior correspondent at the Federalist. 733 00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:36,559 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers 734 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:51,440 of freedom and anxious for the Fray.