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Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 1: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good evening, A typical morning in the Atlanta suburbs. Businessman
Speaker 7: Rusty Snyderman drops his beloved son off at the Dunwoodie
Speaker 7: Prep Nursery. In the parking lot, a mini van pulls
Speaker 7: up next to his car. The driver pulls out a
Speaker 7: gun and shoots Rusty four times in the chest. Sneiderman's
Speaker 7: devoted wife, Andrea is devastated by the crime. Who could
Speaker 7: have done this? She is shocked when police trace the
Speaker 7: shooting to a man named Henry Newman, who happens to
Speaker 7: be Andreas adoring boss. The prosecution accuses Andrea and Henry
Speaker 7: Hemy of having a forbidden relationship and of conspiring to
Speaker 7: collect two million dollars in her husband's life insurance, but
Speaker 7: Andreas sware she never intended to kill Rusty, and it
Speaker 7: is Hemy who is delusional and obsessed. With the charges
Speaker 7: against her dropped and the insurance money frozen, Andrea remains
Speaker 7: a mysterious character. Only one other person, the man who
Speaker 7: pulled the trigger, knows the truth about what really happened.
Speaker 7: The book they are featuring this evening is Crazy for You,
Speaker 7: the true story of a family man's murder, a wife's secret,
Speaker 7: and a deadly obsession with my special guest, journalist and author,
Speaker 7: Michael Fleemann. Welcome back to the program, and thank you,
Speaker 7: thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Michael
Speaker 7: Fleeman Thanks Dan, I'm yeah, happy to be here, Thank
Speaker 7: you very much. First off, tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about set the stage with this Dunwoody village. Tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about Dunwoody in this proximity to Atlanta
Speaker 7: and what kind of suburb is it really?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, Dunwoody is an upscale bedroom community just
Speaker 6: on the Perimeter Loop, the freeway that runs around the
Speaker 6: Atlanta area. It's a place of very quiet trees, expensive houses,
Speaker 6: you know, upper class, upper middle class families. You know,
Speaker 6: it's a quiet, nice, nice community.
Speaker 7: Now you open this right away with incredible action just
Speaker 7: before nine am and November eighteenth, twenty ten, and you
Speaker 7: open with a silver Infinity G thirty five. It's a
Speaker 7: real nice car pulled into Dunwoody Village shopping center and
Speaker 7: in front of the wall of Dunwoody Prep pre School.
Speaker 7: And you talk about Russell Rusty snyderman thirty six years old,
Speaker 7: and he's picking his three year old son up, or
Speaker 7: his three year old son had been in the car seat,
Speaker 7: taking him to daycare. Tell us what happens shortly after.
Speaker 6: Well, Rusty drops his son off at Dunwoodie Prep, very
Speaker 6: expensive prep school that's also a daycare center, and that
Speaker 6: should give you an idea of what kind of school
Speaker 6: it is. They're already thinking the college at age three.
Speaker 6: And he drops his son off and heads back toward
Speaker 6: the car, and just then a van pulls up, and
Speaker 6: out of the van emerges a man. He's wearing a
Speaker 6: stocking cap, and as you mentioned in the outset, he
Speaker 6: shoots Rusty right there in the parking lot in the morning,
Speaker 6: quiet day four times, gets back in the van and
Speaker 6: takes off and disappears. And this is the kind of
Speaker 6: thing that has never happened anywhere in dunwooth He much
Speaker 6: much less in front of a preschool, and the preschool
Speaker 6: is located in the shopping center, so the post office
Speaker 6: is nearby stores or neboy. Just right in the middle
Speaker 6: of the morning this murder takes place.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about that there are various witnesses. Is
Speaker 7: a Craig kol Meyer's some people heard the pops. They
Speaker 7: give a general description that he's about five foot nine
Speaker 7: to maybe five foot eleven. There's varying reports. There's a beard,
Speaker 7: there's a be a mustache, and there's this description of
Speaker 7: the silver minivan. What is the best lead that police
Speaker 7: have and what do they do with Rusty Snyderman immediately.
Speaker 6: Well, they don't have a lot of good leads. In
Speaker 6: the beginning, Like you mentioned, the eyewitness accounts were kind
Speaker 6: of all over the map. They did have one eyewitness
Speaker 6: who got a good enough look at the gunman to
Speaker 6: provide a sketch kind of a swarthy looking man with
Speaker 6: a beard and a cap. But there isn't much, you know,
Speaker 6: there isn't much in the very beginning, and in fact,
Speaker 6: the scene is you know, a little bit hysterical, because
Speaker 6: not long after this happens, Rusty's wife, Andreas, shows up
Speaker 6: at the preschool and you know, she's she's out of control.
Speaker 6: She's screaming, she's crying, what happened to my husband? What's
Speaker 6: going on here? And nobody would tell her. And so
Speaker 6: you know, in the media aftermath of the shooting, of course,
Speaker 6: there's all these children there and they have to worry
Speaker 6: about the kids, and and so it's a rather chaotic
Speaker 6: scene at first. And nobody got a really good look
Speaker 6: at the gunman, except to reveal that it's a man.
Speaker 6: But a lot of people did see the van and
Speaker 6: and it looked like a later model Silver Mini van.
Speaker 7: Right now, how does how do paramedics and hospital staff
Speaker 7: deal with Rusty? What's the prognosi as soon as he
Speaker 7: gets there? And anything along the way that was interesting?
Speaker 7: After he was shot, Yeah, I.
Speaker 6: Mean, he's it looks pretty clear that he's dead. But
Speaker 6: they take him, you know, to the emergency room anyway,
Speaker 6: and and uh work on him, and and you know
Speaker 6: he's he's you know, he's the gunner. He's filled with
Speaker 6: these forty caliber slugs. We're talking a major gun shot
Speaker 6: him and they were unable to revive him. And he's
Speaker 6: declared dead at the hospital.
Speaker 7: Now you say that the police are on the way,
Speaker 7: they go to the crime scene. At first, there's some
Speaker 7: misunderstanding and misdirected call. It was referred to as an
Speaker 7: arm robbery. But they finally get there. What do they
Speaker 7: find in terms of shellcasings or any kind of evidence
Speaker 7: other than the big, huge pool of blood as you described, Well.
Speaker 6: They yeah, they have I'm trying to remember if they
Speaker 6: actually had the shell casings. You can help me out
Speaker 6: on this, but they basically they have a guy lying
Speaker 6: in a pool of blood, pumped full of shots, and
Speaker 6: you know, they have an aggrieved you know, new soon
Speaker 6: to be widow. They're trying to keep her away, you know,
Speaker 6: from the action and the scene. They're not telling or
Speaker 6: anything because you know, frankly, nobody really knows too much
Speaker 6: about what's going on. And you know, she's screaming and
Speaker 6: yelling and and you know, they're just they're just really
Speaker 6: trying to contain things. But there's not a lot of
Speaker 6: physical evidence to work with at the scene.
Speaker 7: Now, what is their procedure in terms of who do
Speaker 7: they talk to first? And who are the detectives involved?
Speaker 7: You talk about the Calb County, So who is involved
Speaker 7: in terms of jurisdiction here, and how do they proceed
Speaker 7: who they speak to first.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, this is you know, Dunwoody is a unique community.
Speaker 6: It's it'sn't actually it's not. It's part of the Calb County,
Speaker 6: but it's not part of Atlanta. It is its own
Speaker 6: little city. And there's some sort of socio economic issues
Speaker 6: at work here. Atlanta, which has large African American population,
Speaker 6: also has in places of the city crime. It's an
Speaker 6: urban center. Dunwoody is a very white community. It's also
Speaker 6: a community made up of a lot of they call them,
Speaker 6: you know Yankees, Northerners who come to Atlanta, the Atlanta
Speaker 6: area to work at the big you know, Marietta ge
Speaker 6: work at the big corporations there, and they huddle in Dunwoody.
Speaker 6: And so Dunwoody was recently incorporated, and it was sort
Speaker 6: of incorporated. You know, people tap dance around the issue,
Speaker 6: but the fact is this is a white community of
Speaker 6: people who are very concerned about Hispanic and African American
Speaker 6: coming into their community, breaking into their cars, breaking into
Speaker 6: their house. So the police department is very community oriented,
Speaker 6: very responsive to the community, and most of what they
Speaker 6: deal with is crime from the outside as they call it.
Speaker 6: And they're not set up, they're not attuned. The entire
Speaker 6: city was not even founded on the very vague possibility
Speaker 6: that somebody within Dunwoody could commit a crime. So naturally,
Speaker 6: in the very beginning, the mindset is, you know, who
Speaker 6: came into Dunwoodie and did this to Rusty Center, What
Speaker 6: sort of outside force could have happened? And so that
Speaker 6: was the mindset from the beginning of the investigation.
Speaker 7: You talked, and this is a critical part of this
Speaker 7: book too. You say that when the school had called Andrea,
Speaker 7: at first they didn't even tell her who was it involving.
Speaker 7: She later said she just assumed, but give us the
Speaker 7: details of what she was told. And then a phone
Speaker 7: call or phone calls that she made did the contrary.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this would be very critical later on Andrea, you know,
Speaker 6: was given and there's some dispute about who said what
Speaker 6: to whom, but most all of the witnesses are in
Speaker 6: agreement that Andrea got only the sketchiest of information that
Speaker 6: her husband was dead apparently violent act. Police are there,
Speaker 6: so she knows it wasn't, you know, heart attack or
Speaker 6: car accident or something a homicide. A detective sort of
Speaker 6: talks to her briefly, so she can assume that her
Speaker 6: husband had been killed, but nobody, nobody claimed to have
Speaker 6: told her how her husband was wounded. And keep in mind,
Speaker 6: in the beginning, he's only wounded, he's taken off to
Speaker 6: the hospital. Nobody even tells her that he's all the dead.
Speaker 6: She doesn't get the notification until hours later when she
Speaker 6: goes to the hospital. So in fact, she's so frustrated
Speaker 6: by the lack of information that she's lashing out of people.
Speaker 6: And for years later she's complaining about how nobody would
Speaker 6: tell her anything. No one would tell her anything, and
Speaker 6: she's the wife, and she, you know, demands to know,
Speaker 6: which is of course natural. Yet in some critical phone
Speaker 6: calls early on, including one to her father in law
Speaker 6: and one to her close friend, she says, and I
Speaker 6: think to a coworker, she sent a text to all
Speaker 6: of them, she says, my husband has been shot. Yet
Speaker 6: nobody told her. Nobody told her that he'd been shot.
Speaker 6: There was no obvious, uh, you know, gun evidence on
Speaker 6: the that she could see. He could have been beaten
Speaker 6: to death, he could have been poisoned, he could any
Speaker 6: number of things could have happened. But she very clearly
Speaker 6: told several people. He had been shot.
Speaker 7: Now, when I asked you about the shells, there was
Speaker 7: shells left, but they couldn't narrow it down. It's either
Speaker 7: a forty caliber or forty four caliber, but ballistics couldn't
Speaker 7: narrow it down to make the model make out the
Speaker 7: model of the gun, much less where or when it
Speaker 7: was purchased. So they did do an exhaustive search. But
Speaker 7: tell us about the van they had at least they
Speaker 7: thought more luck and again, very very interesting, how how
Speaker 7: much effort they put into this van.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know there was and we'll talk about it later.
Speaker 6: There was a lot of very bad police work done
Speaker 6: in this case. And Donewoodie, like I said, was not
Speaker 6: equipped to handle a high profile homicide. But there was
Speaker 6: a lot of good police work and a lot of
Speaker 6: real intrepid shoe leather police work, and this this fell
Speaker 6: under that category. They had the van, and you know,
Speaker 6: they asked around everybody that trying for who has this van?
Speaker 6: Who has his van? And it seemed like a needle
Speaker 6: in a haystack. But there was some security footage. There's
Speaker 6: security cameras all over the preschool. Now, the security camers
Speaker 6: did not capture the actual shooting, but it did get
Speaker 6: footage of the van and in the In some of
Speaker 6: the still photos that were enhanced from the security video,
Speaker 6: one of the cops said, hang out, looks like a
Speaker 6: sticker on the windshield. And they talked about why would
Speaker 6: there be a sticker on the windshield, and this one
Speaker 6: officer said, well, maybe it was. You know, like when
Speaker 6: you rent to rent a car at the airport or
Speaker 6: the rental lot, isn't there a sticker that they put
Speaker 6: on the windshield, you know, the driver's side, to kind
Speaker 6: of scan the car in and out. And the more
Speaker 6: they looked at the more they said, yeah, that looks
Speaker 6: like one of those rental car stickers. And first you
Speaker 6: have to get past the notion who on earth would
Speaker 6: commit a murder in a rental car rental van. But
Speaker 6: that turned out to be a big lead, so they
Speaker 6: were able to narrow the person driving the van from
Speaker 6: every single conceivable silver van in the world to silver
Speaker 6: vans that had been rented around the time of the shooting,
Speaker 6: and as they looked at it more detail, it appeared
Speaker 6: to be a key of Sedona van had those kinds
Speaker 6: of marketings, so they were able to really narrow it
Speaker 6: down just by happenstance, just by somebody thinking a little
Speaker 6: outside the box. And so this is where the real
Speaker 6: detective work started. And they started calling, literally calling every
Speaker 6: rental agency in the area asking if anybody had rented
Speaker 6: out a silver keya Sedona or symbol her fan around
Speaker 6: the time of this shooting.
Speaker 7: You talk about some police work that wasn't up the standard,
Speaker 7: and you talk about just the politics of having basically
Speaker 7: your own police force, much different and much different treatment
Speaker 7: of the citizens there, it seemed. You talk about the
Speaker 7: treatment of Andrea potentially as a suspect in this and
Speaker 7: the sort of velvet glove treatment that she got as well.
Speaker 7: She was offering advice to the officers and they took
Speaker 7: her up on that advice. So what did she say
Speaker 7: to them? How was what was the content of what
Speaker 7: she had to say to them and her instructions as
Speaker 7: to the investigation.
Speaker 6: Well, anybody with the most rudimentary knowledge of police work
Speaker 6: knows that when somebody is killed, you start with the
Speaker 6: people closest to them. Then you work your way out
Speaker 6: in concentric circles. Not just murder, but I mean any crime,
Speaker 6: because overwhelmingly you get killed by people you know who
Speaker 6: know you who are close to you, and the notion
Speaker 6: of a complete stranger driving up to you and shooting
Speaker 6: you in a parking lot is not just doesn't happen.
Speaker 6: So in the case of a husband or a wife,
Speaker 6: you always always start with a spouse. They are the
Speaker 6: first person you have to eliminate. And you know, cops
Speaker 6: talk in terms of not suspects, but in terms of eliminations,
Speaker 6: everybody in the world is a suspect. Then you start
Speaker 6: eliminating people, and you have to start by eliminating those closes.
Speaker 6: So Andrew is the wife. They very carefully did not
Speaker 6: tell her anything in the beginning, but they do have
Speaker 6: to talk to her. And not only would they have
Speaker 6: to eliminate her, but you know, she would presumably know
Speaker 6: about enemies or problems or whatever, so she would also
Speaker 6: be the best witness to talk to. And a couple
Speaker 6: of detectives and a more seasoned detective and a younger
Speaker 6: detective go to the Snyderman house, beautiful beautiful house in Dunwoodie.
Speaker 6: Knock on the door, and I think it was Andrew's
Speaker 6: mom comes to the door and says, the cops say,
Speaker 6: you know, we want to talk to Andrea about miss Sneyderman,
Speaker 6: you know, sorry for your lost When I talked to
Speaker 6: her about her husband's murder, and the mom says, you know,
Speaker 6: come back tomorrow. She's not up to it, and the
Speaker 6: detective says, okay, I will. Now, if this had been
Speaker 6: a young African American man from the inner City, I
Speaker 6: don't think he would have gotten that same deferential treatment.
Speaker 6: At least they would have pressed the matter a little bit.
Speaker 6: But they from the very beginning handled this thing with
Speaker 6: kid gloves. So they come back the next day, the
Speaker 6: two detectives, and that's when they talked to Andrea. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: she's surrounded table by her family. Her brother was a lawyer.
Speaker 6: And again it's a very very deferential interview, not that
Speaker 6: it has to be antagonistic or adversarial, but you know,
Speaker 6: every cop knows that you have to eliminate the spouse.
Speaker 6: But they went into this, certainly, one of the detectives
Speaker 6: as if, look, you know, we can't we gotta be
Speaker 6: nice to her because this kind of thing just doesn't
Speaker 6: happen in Dounelody. And so you know, there wasn't a
Speaker 6: lot of attention paid to her from the very beginning.
Speaker 7: They eventually ask her for permission to search, and or
Speaker 7: they get search warrants and then they are they find
Speaker 7: some a very very interesting document if you were looking
Speaker 7: for motive, potentially tell us about the life insurance policy
Speaker 7: that they found.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, they do the usual due diligence and yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, Rusty's got a ton of life insurance. So
Speaker 6: I don't remember what is over a million dollars. I
Speaker 6: think it certainly certainly enough money, you know, to make
Speaker 6: for a murder motive. At the same time, you know,
Speaker 6: these are people of means and you know, a large
Speaker 6: life insurance policy, and I think they both had life
Speaker 6: insurance policies, so would not be that unusual. But you know,
Speaker 6: when you're talking a big, huge payout, you know you
Speaker 6: have to you really have to look at that. I
Speaker 6: think more important what would prove more critical later on
Speaker 6: was what Andrea did and did not tell them. In
Speaker 6: this deferential interview. They're talking to her and you know,
Speaker 6: they're asking her the usual questions, does he have any
Speaker 6: enemies and you know, anybody who might want to kill them?
Speaker 6: And and she says, well, you know, she starts throwing
Speaker 6: out some possibilities. Rusty was in finance. He worked at
Speaker 6: a at a company, and you know, they didn't part
Speaker 6: ways on particularly good terms, and she called the bosses
Speaker 6: a bunch of a holes, and you know, kind of
Speaker 6: pointed to that, you know, she mentioned kind of in casually,
Speaker 6: I think, like an exterminator had come by the house earlier,
Speaker 6: sort of thought, you know, that might be somebody. She
Speaker 6: mentioned that previous to that, Rusty had had stumbled onto
Speaker 6: a guy who was sort of crouching behind the house
Speaker 6: by the air conditioning unit. She you know, she said
Speaker 6: it was a Mexican guy, you know, And that's kind
Speaker 6: of in Dunwoody code for you know, possible criminals, so
Speaker 6: you know, and and she's you know, sending them into
Speaker 6: these various investigative avenues. But at one point, and this
Speaker 6: is the most what would prove to be the most
Speaker 6: critical point of the interview, they started asking the sort
Speaker 6: of routine question, you know, any problems in your marriage? Now?
Speaker 6: Were very happily married, you know. They asked about their
Speaker 6: sex life, and you know, everything's fine, and you know,
Speaker 6: did he have an affair? Now? I don't think he
Speaker 6: ever had any affairs. And then they asked her, well,
Speaker 6: has anybody ever expressed romantic interest in you. And Andrew got
Speaker 6: a little flustered and and she finally says, well, you know,
Speaker 6: and the cop said, well, do you want to talk
Speaker 6: about this privately, because keep mind her mom is there,
Speaker 6: brother's there. And Andrew's no, no, no, I'll talk about this.
Speaker 6: And she says, well, you know, my boss, my boss once,
Speaker 6: you know, expressed feelings for me, but I very quickly
Speaker 6: shot it down. I'm you know, I'm happily married and
Speaker 6: and we're very respectful after that. You know, It's just
Speaker 6: one of those passing moments. And the mother jumped in
Speaker 6: and said, yeah, you know, tell her, tell her you
Speaker 6: never reciprocated, right and Andrew, No, No, I didn't, mom,
Speaker 6: you know, I just happened. He's a very nice man.
Speaker 6: He expresses as I said, you know, this could not
Speaker 6: go both ways. I married and that was the end
Speaker 6: of it. And unfortunately that was the end of it
Speaker 6: for a while because police did not follow up on that.
Speaker 7: You talk about that, they didn't have another official interview.
Speaker 7: It took a long time for them to have an
Speaker 7: interview at the police station. And that was very very interesting.
Speaker 7: So they took her advice and they went on and
Speaker 7: followed leads they put out the sketch and that generated
Speaker 7: some leads. They had to follow those to their logical conclusion.
Speaker 7: What do they before we talk again about how they
Speaker 7: eventually put this together with the again tracing it back
Speaker 7: to the van rental, But in the interim, what is
Speaker 7: the investigation and where is it focused on?
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, they're looking mostly into Rusty's financial and work.
Speaker 6: His he was an NBA from Harvard, made a lot
Speaker 6: of money, but he had bounced around from job to job,
Speaker 6: and you know, he, like I said, he left his
Speaker 6: one position under you know, not very good circumstances. He
Speaker 6: then got involved, he was an entrepreneur. He then got
Speaker 6: involved in this sort of celebrity. It was a kind
Speaker 6: of complicated as one of these things where if you
Speaker 6: have an answering machine or an answering message, you can
Speaker 6: get a celebrity to do your your answering message. And
Speaker 6: he was trying to start up a you know, so
Speaker 6: the George cloone you could answer your phone, you know,
Speaker 6: when you're not there, And he was trying to get
Speaker 6: that company off the ground. And you know, they kept
Speaker 6: police kept thinking maybe there's something in the business history,
Speaker 6: and they kept thinking it had all the sort of
Speaker 6: signs of an assassination, right, like a hitman. That it
Speaker 6: was so brazen, middle of the morning, broad daylight, in
Speaker 6: front of a school for have and say calm cool collective.
Speaker 6: So they just they kept thinking this had to be
Speaker 6: a hit, and they really scoured his his work history
Speaker 6: looking for something. Did he did he you know, across
Speaker 6: somebody some way, you know, litigation, and and that's that's
Speaker 6: really what dedicated most of the police's work in the beginning.
Speaker 7: Now, what did police do with the report and how
Speaker 7: did they attributed to this crime at all? Did they
Speaker 7: think it was connected when they looked at the police
Speaker 7: reports of the incident that happened with the homeless guy
Speaker 7: considered a Mexican with the mustache that Rusty had called
Speaker 7: nine to one about.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I you know, it just it just seemed kind
Speaker 6: of interesting. But I don't think in the beginning, you know,
Speaker 6: it's this odd thing where Rusty saw this guy at
Speaker 6: the house and it was on the side to the
Speaker 6: house and then he ran off into the woods or something,
Speaker 6: and you know, it's all very scary, but you know,
Speaker 6: he was this Mexican guy, didn't have a good ID,
Speaker 6: and I don't as I recall, I don't know that
Speaker 6: they were able initially to make much of it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 7: You talk about the again incredible funeral, and this is
Speaker 7: a Jewish funeral, so you talk about some of the traditions,
Speaker 7: and hemy Is attends the funeral, what is his role
Speaker 7: at the funeral and what is his demeanor at that funeral? Again?
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know you remember that that Andreas said, oh,
Speaker 6: my boss had expressed affection for me, but we put
Speaker 6: it aside and we moved on. Well, that same boss,
Speaker 6: ashimmy newman, and and he did he attended the funeral,
Speaker 6: you know, seemed respectful and you know, he he uh,
Speaker 6: he gave his condolences and and you know it was
Speaker 6: two people on the outside. It all seemed very appropriate.
Speaker 7: Yeah, even shovel dirt on the coffin.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, there's a tradition. You know, there's a this
Speaker 6: was you know, these were very very devout Jewish people
Speaker 6: and and you know, and in the town of Dunwoodie
Speaker 6: that's a very very tight knit community. Not a lot
Speaker 6: of josh people there. And and you know they they
Speaker 6: they you know, had the went back to the home
Speaker 6: and you know, did did the whole you know, the
Speaker 6: whole the whole ceremony and all the traditions and yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean even shovel dirt onto the coffin.
Speaker 7: Right now, let's get back to the to the van discovery,
Speaker 7: because again they start off with thinking that this might
Speaker 7: be a new van and it might be a Dodge caravan.
Speaker 7: And then through this again very good police work, they
Speaker 7: narrow it down to this twenty eleven Sedona. So once
Speaker 7: they inadvertently bump into this hemy newman and the other
Speaker 7: warrants come into play. Where for computers and again tell
Speaker 7: us about the process of them eventually getting around to
Speaker 7: looking at digital information. Yeah, all that phone call information.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's first the van and they narrow
Speaker 6: it down, and they narrow it down, and you know,
Speaker 6: it took a while. They called a lot of rental places,
Speaker 6: and you know, we see the security footage. It's not
Speaker 6: super clear and it's hard to make things out and
Speaker 6: you can't see the license plate and all that, and
Speaker 6: they get some help from other, you know, cops in
Speaker 6: the department, and and they finally do they do trace
Speaker 6: the van and to who rental agency? I think it
Speaker 6: was an enterprise outside of Atlanta. And yeah, they did
Speaker 6: have a van Kia Sedona Silver did get rented out
Speaker 6: right around the time of the I think this was
Speaker 6: November eighteenth, And I think the van was rented out
Speaker 6: day before or something like that, and came back the
Speaker 6: next day. And yeah, I was rented out near you know, Dunwoodie.
Speaker 6: And and and I was sitting here in the lot
Speaker 6: if you want to take a look at It had
Speaker 6: out of state plates. But that was not unusual, you know,
Speaker 6: someone would rent a van one state and bring it back.
Speaker 6: And they said fine, fine, And and the cops asked, OK,
Speaker 6: do you have the paperwork for when that van was
Speaker 6: originally rented? And yeah, they had it. And you have
Speaker 6: a contact phone number for the person who rented it,
Speaker 6: and yes we do, and so the please pick up
Speaker 6: the phone, and they call the cell phone number the
Speaker 6: contact of the person who rented the van, and Hammy
Speaker 6: Newman answers the phone.
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Speaker 7: Yeah. Now, there's of course a warrant for like I say,
Speaker 7: his computer. The they do start to investigate the connection
Speaker 7: because they realize where he works at GE and he's
Speaker 7: the boss of Andrea Snyderman and they speak to him
Speaker 7: as well, and they arrest him. It's the first time
Speaker 7: he's ever been arrested. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about just that that first interview with him and what
Speaker 7: the police gleam from that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they it was it took a while to talk
Speaker 6: about a month I think before they put everything together
Speaker 6: with the van and himI. And even then they didn't
Speaker 6: you know, holme into jail right away him. He was
Speaker 6: actually Florida for some his funeral I think, and they
Speaker 6: when they called them and they gave him a week
Speaker 6: to come back, and you know, again very very deferential,
Speaker 6: and yeah, they bring him into the station and he
Speaker 6: really gets the third degree. This is a long, complicated,
Speaker 6: grueling interrogation and I you know, it begins as not
Speaker 6: an interrogation, which is his questioning, but they reach a
Speaker 6: point where they want to read Hamy his rights. And
Speaker 6: when they do that in real life, you actually sign
Speaker 6: a paper saying, you know, you understand these rights. And
Speaker 6: and he kind of hmmed and hat and didn't want
Speaker 6: to do it. And you know, he asked, do I
Speaker 6: need a lawyer? And you know, once he gets a lawyer,
Speaker 6: that's that's it. So they sort of say, well, do
Speaker 6: you need a lawyer? You know, and you know, so
Speaker 6: that became very suspicious, and you know, but he he
Speaker 6: he's agitated, he's you know, he looks at things on videotape.
Speaker 6: You can watch it, and he looks you know, he
Speaker 6: doesn't look like an innocent man. But they ask about
Speaker 6: his relationship with Andrey, and you know, he says he
Speaker 6: has a lot of respect for her. And they also
Speaker 6: find out that he had met with her husband shortly
Speaker 6: before the murder, which was kind of odd. But you know,
Speaker 6: there's there Hemi's Jewish, and Rusty's Jewish, and Andrew's Jewish.
Speaker 6: And you know, he was helping him with some business stuff,
Speaker 6: I think he said. And you know, but he steadfastly
Speaker 6: denied killing killing Rusty, but he did kind of tap
Speaker 6: dance around. It's like, well, why would I do that,
Speaker 6: you know, that kind of thing. Why would I do
Speaker 6: something so stupid? You know, So his answers, you know,
Speaker 6: while in the negative, were very suspicious. Now they asked
Speaker 6: about the van, and he says, oh, you had to
Speaker 6: bring in his car for some kind of warranty recall
Speaker 6: work or something, and and that's why they rent to
Speaker 6: the van. And they asked for his and this is
Speaker 6: where he got in trouble. They asked for his whereabouts
Speaker 6: the morning of the murders. So I was at work
Speaker 6: and are you sure? And he said him, yep, I
Speaker 6: was at work. Well, you know, he was so suspicious
Speaker 6: and acting so strange that they did actually arrest him
Speaker 6: and held him, and then they had to go about
Speaker 6: confirming or knocking down his.
Speaker 7: Alibi while they're doing that with the help of ge
Speaker 7: and also pings from the cell phone records, those kinds
Speaker 7: of things. It's interesting and very very telling. I think
Speaker 7: is that Andrew has notified that the police have made
Speaker 7: an arrest, and I'm sure this is strategic. What is
Speaker 7: her response to just the statement that someone has been
Speaker 7: arrested in the murder of her husband.
Speaker 6: She is acting about as guilty as Hemmy is. And
Speaker 6: you know, I think, and you may have to refresh
Speaker 6: my recollections. I think she said, is it Emmy or
Speaker 6: somehow brings up his his name?
Speaker 7: No, she What she does do is she doesn't ask
Speaker 7: who it is.
Speaker 6: She doesn't ask. She doesn't ask. That's it. That's it.
Speaker 6: She doesn't ask the obvious questions. Right, if your husband
Speaker 6: got killed, who did it? You know? When you want
Speaker 6: to know what happened? Oh, No, she doesn't ask. It's
Speaker 6: as if she knows and she's just not it's it's,
Speaker 6: it's it's. It's difficult to describe unless you hear her interviews,
Speaker 6: but she's just not asking acting like the aggrieved widow,
Speaker 6: you know, or at least, oh, you know, we saw
Speaker 6: Dresne's murder. You think she'd be overjoyed or wanting to
Speaker 6: help in any way. But she's evasive and defensive and
Speaker 6: just doesn't do the things or ask the kinds of
Speaker 6: questions that you would expect somebody in that position to do.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you say. Right after the arrest though, that this
Speaker 7: Deputy chief Sides and Lieutenant Barnes they talked to Andrea,
Speaker 7: and so there's a little bit more heat on her.
Speaker 7: So and they're asking her things like what do you
Speaker 7: think we found out? And so she tries to assume
Speaker 7: she might know the Andrews. He said, well that he
Speaker 7: went crazy. Yeah, so she then starts talking about.
Speaker 6: Crazy, he loves me, what's wrong with him? I don't know,
Speaker 6: you know, you tell me that kind of stuff. You know.
Speaker 6: It's it's the defiance, you know, it's it's it's as
Speaker 6: if it's like, lady, we're on the same pay, we're
Speaker 6: of the same team as you. You know, why are
Speaker 6: you putting up all these roadblocks? Why why are you
Speaker 6: giving us all this attitude? You know, what are you hiding?
Speaker 6: And you know they're now having a pry information at
Speaker 6: her now look to the very end, she said, Look,
Speaker 6: I told him up front that Hemmy expressed feelings for me,
Speaker 6: not my fault. You guys didn't follow up on it,
Speaker 6: you know. But now they are following up on it,
Speaker 6: and she's not helping them.
Speaker 7: She is trying to protect herself though, so she says
Speaker 7: that she received a again when she was very shocked.
Speaker 7: This Bruno Mar's itune gets.
Speaker 6: A sound like love song, you know, while Hemmy after
Speaker 6: the murder, but as after the murder murder, and while
Speaker 6: Hemmy was out and about, you know, he sends her
Speaker 6: like an iTunes love song. You know, I forgot the
Speaker 6: name of it. It's not like I love you or
Speaker 6: how do I love you? Or whatever? You know, and
Speaker 6: it's like, well wait a second, lady. She's telling them
Speaker 6: this now right after the arrests, saying well, why didn't
Speaker 6: you tell us this sooner? You know, I mean, your
Speaker 6: husband's arrested, I mean, your husband's killed, and your boss
Speaker 6: is sending you love songs afterwards, and you know, we're
Speaker 6: trying to find the person, and we already asked you,
Speaker 6: you know, if anybody was in love with you, and
Speaker 6: you downplayed it. But she does tell them because you know,
Speaker 6: she's smart, and it's starting to dawn on her that
Speaker 6: you know, they can search her phone, they can search
Speaker 6: her computer. Although it's interesting to note that that first night,
Speaker 6: remember when they went to talk to her and had
Speaker 6: to come back the next day, they didn't see her
Speaker 6: computer at twenty four hours more to mess around with
Speaker 6: that computer, and so, you know, but she knows, she
Speaker 6: clearly knows, and so she tells them, Yeah, my boss,
Speaker 6: my boss sent me this, send me this love song.
Speaker 7: It's interesting too in this interview, when they're she's receiving heat,
Speaker 7: they certainly have a different attitude with her and much
Speaker 7: more confrontational. They say to her, listen because her mother
Speaker 7: arrives at the police station. They say, listen, your mother
Speaker 7: is thinking that we're holding you hostage. Can you go
Speaker 7: out there and reassure we aren't, and then we'll continue
Speaker 7: right after that, Yeah, well thats what happened.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so near the end, near the end, they say, look,
Speaker 6: your mom thinks we're holding you hostage. Go out there
Speaker 6: and tell her we're just having a conversation. She goes
Speaker 6: out there and she never comes back. That's the last
Speaker 6: time she talks to Cobbs.
Speaker 7: Yeah, very very interesting, that mother dynamic. Now, how do
Speaker 7: he gets a public defender right away? But not for long?
Speaker 7: And somebody comes to the rescue? Here, tell us what
Speaker 7: kind of his appearance in court? And then what happens
Speaker 7: as a result of getting a defense team together.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so remember that the publicity, and this was a
Speaker 6: very highly publicized case. The world is expecting a hitman,
Speaker 6: a trained assassin from the sketch. They're expecting maybe some
Speaker 6: hardened criminals or they Hispanic man. And what they get
Speaker 6: is this nerdy, little gray haired guy who works a
Speaker 6: general electric and he just looks just doesn't This isn't
Speaker 6: what anybody thought. This is a man pulling down close
Speaker 6: to two hundred thousand bucks at ge technical wizard, you know, supervisor,
Speaker 6: you know, very very good position. And so he's just
Speaker 6: kind of, you know, he's kind of sitting there sort
Speaker 6: of sad and forlorn in court. And it doesn't jibe
Speaker 6: with these preconceived ideas of what goes on in Dunwoodie,
Speaker 6: and you know, he goes through the usual, he goes
Speaker 6: through the usual, you know, not guilty stuff. But he
Speaker 6: does get private counsel and they are very very very
Speaker 6: accomplished lawyers in Atlanta, and they are watching and becoming
Speaker 6: increasingly concerned with what police are digging up on Hammy newman.
Speaker 7: At the same time, they don't rest in terms of
Speaker 7: getting all the details, so they are amassing, like I
Speaker 7: had mentioned, the all of the relative email evidence, the
Speaker 7: card reading at GE to know when he came in,
Speaker 7: when he left, tell us a little bit what is
Speaker 7: found eventually, and so it kind.
Speaker 6: Of falls under Yeah, it kind of falls under two categories.
Speaker 6: The first is they got to look into his alibi. Well,
Speaker 6: I was at GE twenty whatever miles away in Marietta,
Speaker 6: DEPHTI was a GG when all this happened, so with
Speaker 6: Andrew or Andrew was on away or something. Well, when
Speaker 6: you work at a big company like geh, it's kind
Speaker 6: of creepy, but they really sort of follow your every move.
Speaker 6: There's key cards that you have to swipe to get
Speaker 6: into the building, into different parts of the complex. GE
Speaker 6: even keeps track of when you turn on your computer,
Speaker 6: when you turn it off, and security cameras, all kinds
Speaker 6: of things, but mostly the key cards. And this initial
Speaker 6: phase one of the technical investigation found that Hammy could
Speaker 6: not account digitally electronically for his whereabouts at the time
Speaker 6: of the murder. In fact, all signs point to him
Speaker 6: not being there and all kinds of weird stuff like
Speaker 6: normally he would swipe a car but instead when he
Speaker 6: at one point during the morning, he I think he
Speaker 6: like signs himself in, you know, manually showed up at
Speaker 6: a different time in the morning. Basically, and it's very complicated.
Speaker 6: They were using the tech you know it team at
Speaker 6: GE but basically there was this big gap, plenty of time,
Speaker 6: plenty of time for him to have committed the murder
Speaker 6: and then gotten back to his office.
Speaker 7: They eventually look at Hemi's cell phone records and they
Speaker 7: recognize the name, or they don't recognize the name. But
Speaker 7: when they contact this Jen Da Silva, what does he
Speaker 7: tell them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're going through a cell phone and there's a
Speaker 6: lot of suspicious stuff on the phone. You know, they
Speaker 6: don't have taps of the phone, but through through subpoenas
Speaker 6: by figuring out where you know, when you're near a
Speaker 6: cell phone tower, it pings the phone. You can they
Speaker 6: can kind of trace your movements and they find a
Speaker 6: lot of interesting movements by Himy number one, he was
Speaker 6: in the area of a gun show before the murder.
Speaker 6: He was in the area of a firing range before
Speaker 6: the murder. They were able to confirm that he was
Speaker 6: actually at the firing range. They were able to confirm
Speaker 6: he was actually at the gun show. And then yeah,
Speaker 6: this Silva number comes up and cops call this guy
Speaker 6: up and ask him, you know, why are you talking
Speaker 6: to Hammy Newman? And he says, oh, I sold him
Speaker 6: a gun.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's a Bursa thunder forty caliber semi AUTOMATICA
Speaker 7: This is like an.
Speaker 6: Elephant gun, you know this. This is a big, big gun,
Speaker 6: forty caliber, very similar, you know to to the kind
Speaker 6: of gun that that killed Rusty. The problem is they
Speaker 6: don't have it right. He sold Jan sold him the gun.
Speaker 6: But the gun is still missing, and the cops are, boy,
Speaker 6: you know, do you have any you know, the ballistics
Speaker 6: they can by looking at this her brass cartridges and
Speaker 6: the way that the firing pin hits the cartridges, they
Speaker 6: can they can make a match if they have a
Speaker 6: spent cartridge and they were none at the scene. And
Speaker 6: you know, when they found out that Hemmy went through
Speaker 6: the firing range, they went through thousands of spent cartridges
Speaker 6: and none of them matched, you know, so they couldn't
Speaker 6: find it. And they asked you, you know, hey, you know,
Speaker 6: did do you have any spend? No? I, you know, whatever,
Speaker 6: I gave him the gun. He's oh, wait a second.
Speaker 6: You know when I when I first bought the gun,
Speaker 6: it came with a one cartridge from a test fire,
Speaker 6: and I gave that cartridge to my girlfriend as a
Speaker 6: souvenir and go boy. So they cops zip over to that.
Speaker 6: I think she was the next girlfriend at that point,
Speaker 6: zip over to the woman's house. Did you keep the cartridge? Please? Please? Please? Oh?
Speaker 6: Yes she did, and they look at the cartridge, they
Speaker 6: run ballistics, and sure enough, that was the gun that
Speaker 6: killed Rusty Steinman.
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Speaker 7: Blue Apron a better way to cook now they have
Speaker 7: the confirmed weapon. They have now all kinds of other
Speaker 7: digital evidence tell us a little bit about what the
Speaker 7: credit card evidence tells them about the.
Speaker 6: Relationship with Ge. Turns out that Hemi had a corporate
Speaker 6: Amex card through GE, and Andrea had made reference earlier
Speaker 6: to when Hemmy had expressed his feelings for her. She
Speaker 6: said it was during a business trip and I think
Speaker 6: was near Lake Taho or and Nevada somewhere. And you know,
Speaker 6: it turns out that Hemmy and Andrea made several business
Speaker 6: trips together. Hemy was her boss and not only they
Speaker 6: make these business trips, but he put it all in
Speaker 6: the corporate Amex card, and we mean down to not
Speaker 6: just the hotels in the flight, but the wine that
Speaker 6: was purchased and the expensive meals that were purchased. And
Speaker 6: it was all documented multiple multiple business trips together, including
Speaker 6: one to London, and by kind of backtracking from the
Speaker 6: credit cards, they could call the hotels, the motels, the
Speaker 6: restaurant and what emerged were not innocent little business trips.
Speaker 6: One of the business trips North Carolina, they went to
Speaker 6: a club called Pulse Nightclub and there they were slow
Speaker 6: dancing on the floor and he's grabbing her butt or something.
Speaker 6: And another trip they had adjoining rooms and you know
Speaker 6: they talked to the front desk guy, and you know,
Speaker 6: HEMI had called ahead and said, oh, my wife is coming,
Speaker 6: Tell her I love her. And then Andrea shows up.
Speaker 6: You know, late checkouts. You know, the credit card evidence
Speaker 6: painted the picture that any reasonable observers say they are
Speaker 6: clearly having an affair.
Speaker 7: You also talk about that they dug up people like
Speaker 7: I say, witnessed their behavior at this nightclub groping, but
Speaker 7: also that she had spoken to some of her friends
Speaker 7: and mentioned in a fair so there was quite a
Speaker 7: bit of contradictory evidence gathered against her official statements, even
Speaker 7: though they were quite.
Speaker 6: A bit and you know, and she also confided in
Speaker 6: her friend that things were not great with Rusty and
Speaker 6: you know, all everything's always about Rusty and he always
Speaker 6: puts his career first and on mine, and you know it,
Speaker 6: you know, just one thing after another, didn't it didn't
Speaker 6: add up from what she had told police initially. Remember
Speaker 6: from the very beginning, Oh, my boss, express feelings and
Speaker 6: I said no, and that was the end of it. Well,
Speaker 6: she left out the part about the slow dancing at
Speaker 6: the nightclub and the you know, romantic dinners with expensive
Speaker 6: wine and the adjoining rooms and you know, all this other,
Speaker 6: all this other stuff.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about the The media in twenty eleven,
Speaker 7: in March revealed all the suspicion of Andrea officially and
Speaker 7: the connection before the correspondence between them, before the murder
Speaker 7: and after the murder. Just so tell us what would
Speaker 7: the basically the tone of the media coverage.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the tone became increasingly the gist of the media
Speaker 6: coverage because the media started getting a hold of some
Speaker 6: of the evidence as it was released through search warrants.
Speaker 6: And other means. It was very clear that Andrea it appeared,
Speaker 6: I should say, that Andrew was having an affair, that
Speaker 6: she had either been evasive or lied about the affair,
Speaker 6: and that perhaps she had something to do with this.
Speaker 6: I mean, we go back to the first thing. Who's
Speaker 6: the first person you talked to, the spouse and had Andrea,
Speaker 6: you know, recruited her boss with whom she was having
Speaker 6: an affair, to kill her husband so she could run
Speaker 6: off with her boss and a ton of insurance money.
Speaker 6: And that was sort of the gist of the storyline. Eventually,
Speaker 6: cops were able to obtain the email correspondence between Andrea
Speaker 6: and Hemy, and you know, goes on for pages and
Speaker 6: pages and pages and pages, and it's hard to generalize
Speaker 6: it too much, but the point is they had a
Speaker 6: very very very close relationship, one that might have many
Speaker 6: times seemed a little one sighted. Hemy was constantly expressing
Speaker 6: his love and devotion. I think at one point even
Speaker 6: proposed marriage to Andrea. Andrea seemed to waffle and at
Speaker 6: some point seemed to enjoy the attention and the affections
Speaker 6: of Hemy. At other times she seemed annoyed by him.
Speaker 6: She never said I love you other times, lots of
Speaker 6: expressions of guilt and anxiety about something. But they very
Speaker 6: clearly had a very close relationship that went much beyond
Speaker 6: bosson employee and went much beyond a one time casual.
Speaker 6: Oh you know, I think I have feelings for you,
Speaker 6: which is how she originally had portrayed it.
Speaker 7: Before we get to this trial. What did police find
Speaker 7: in terms of this You talked about the continual correspondence
Speaker 7: in several emails and phone calls and texts, But what
Speaker 7: about after the murder? What was that record? Like, what
Speaker 7: did they find in terms of that kind of evidence.
Speaker 6: You're gonna have to help me on this one. I
Speaker 6: can't remember what the main I can't remember exactly what
Speaker 6: they found. I know, right after the murder, Right after
Speaker 6: the murder that morning, Hemmy is trying to call her
Speaker 6: and call her and call her and call her and
Speaker 6: call her. I mean, we're talking in the minutes after
Speaker 6: the murder, and at one point she does talk to
Speaker 6: him and we don't know what they said, but she's
Speaker 6: talking to this guy the morning of her husband's murder,
Speaker 6: and we don't know what it is, but it's very
Speaker 6: very suspicious. So there's this sort of continuous contact between them.
Speaker 6: Right after that she also sort of.
Speaker 7: Left out, and then there's a gap, and then there's
Speaker 7: this noticeable gap in the correspondence between them, at least officially,
Speaker 7: at least that anyone can track. So that's very very interesting.
Speaker 7: Now this trial is set to go ahead, and of
Speaker 7: course you say it's the it's the last hope for
Speaker 7: basically a defense. You know, a guilty man. I think
Speaker 7: the expression is a pro but he has some capable lawyers,
Speaker 7: like you say, including this Doug Peters. What did they
Speaker 7: decide to do and what's the defense?
Speaker 6: Yeah? So you know, between the gun and the cell
Speaker 6: phone and the emails and all of his lives in
Speaker 6: the rental car, I mean, you know his his goose
Speaker 6: is cooked. Right, there's even more evident. Remember they said
Speaker 6: he had a beard. Well, they found these fibers. It
Speaker 6: was clear that it was in the rental car. It
Speaker 6: was a fake beard. They were a trace it back
Speaker 6: to a Halloween supply store. So, I mean they had
Speaker 6: a mountain of evidence against himy and there they were
Speaker 6: in a corner. There's not much they could do, and
Speaker 6: so they decide a very very risky gambit to launch
Speaker 6: an insanity defense. They claimed he was legally insane at
Speaker 6: the time of the killing, that he had suffered a
Speaker 6: und diagnosed bipolar disorder, that angels, spectral beings spoke to him,
Speaker 6: and in particular, it was an angel who looked like
Speaker 6: Olivia Newton John but had a deep voice like Berry White,
Speaker 6: telling him things like, you know, kill Rusty the children.
Speaker 6: Rusty's children are in danger, blah blah blah. So these
Speaker 6: these these angels are telling him to do this, but
Speaker 6: he's nuts. He's got, you know, this bipolar disorder, and
Speaker 6: it's all scrambled in his brain and and these these
Speaker 6: these angels are telling him and driving him to kill. Now,
Speaker 6: under the law, it's not enough to just have bipolar disorders,
Speaker 6: not enough to be flat out crazy. You have to,
Speaker 6: under the law, be so insane that you do not
Speaker 6: know the difference between right and wrong at the time
Speaker 6: that you commit the killing, that your insanity prevents you
Speaker 6: from knowing the difference between right and wrong. And contrary
Speaker 6: to popular belief, that is a very very difficult thing
Speaker 6: to prove, especially after the Hinckley thing, Reagan They've they
Speaker 6: toughened those laws, and so it was a risky gambit
Speaker 6: because it's really hard to prove that somebody is not
Speaker 6: guilty by reason of insanity in any jurisdiction. But I
Speaker 6: think that's the only thing they had.
Speaker 7: Now in many cases, in any way that they would
Speaker 7: really defend this. I think they still would have taken
Speaker 7: the suspicion of police and other people in the media
Speaker 7: towards Andrea as part of their defense in of trying
Speaker 7: to bolster the fence. So they were trying to say
Speaker 7: that this man, she tried to say that that he
Speaker 7: had delusions, that he thought he was in a more
Speaker 7: serious relationship than he actually was, that he thought, because
Speaker 7: of the demon and the demon's instructions, that the children
Speaker 7: were in danger, and so he had to kill Rusty
Speaker 7: and basically had no choice. He had to kill so
Speaker 7: he was instructed to do this. And then this is
Speaker 7: backed up by another by this doctor Flores. At first
Speaker 7: they get the first diagnosis of the psychotic disorder, then
Speaker 7: this doctor Flores, and so that's their defense, and then
Speaker 7: they back it up with another psychiatrist to disagrees with
Speaker 7: doctor Flores. What comes out in this though, too, and
Speaker 7: it's reasonable that there is a sad story attached to
Speaker 7: his upbringing. So just briefly tell us what they did
Speaker 7: uncover in terms of his connection in his family's connection
Speaker 7: to the horror of the Holocaust.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, I mean as part of the psychological defense,
Speaker 6: they started looking into Rusty's life and and it is
Speaker 6: he had a hard life. His father was a Holocaust
Speaker 6: survivor and and survivor physically but not mentally. And his father,
Speaker 6: his father was never whole again after spending being incarcerated
Speaker 6: in a camp. And you know, he would beat himy
Speaker 6: and physically and verbally abuse his boy. And hemmy always
Speaker 6: was trying to serve as the protector I think of
Speaker 6: his sister and his mother, and you know, things were
Speaker 6: really bad for him. He growing up, and he got
Speaker 6: shipped off to a boarding school and Israel, and there
Speaker 6: was some problem with and he ends up, you know,
Speaker 6: really bad in a bad situation there. And it's like
Speaker 6: the first time he starts seeing these having these delusions
Speaker 6: and the first time he starts talking to angels. And
Speaker 6: this comes and goes throughout his life, and he's mounting
Speaker 6: as he's older. Makes all his money a couple hundred
Speaker 6: thousand dollars, but a year one hundred and seventy thousand
Speaker 6: a year. But you know he's got all these financial problems,
Speaker 6: his marriages and tatters. You know, Uh, he's got this
Speaker 6: mental illness. He's he's just under all kinds of pressure
Speaker 6: from within and from without. And you know, his his
Speaker 6: defense is that Andrea was smart enough to kind of
Speaker 6: if not, no, he was out and out crazy. He's
Speaker 6: certainly toyed with him and and used him and played
Speaker 6: with his emotions and and and and you know put
Speaker 6: him up to this, to this act and that, and
Speaker 6: that she took advantage of his of his weakness.
Speaker 7: Now she's an integral part of this trial, and they
Speaker 7: put her on the stand for a grueling few days.
Speaker 7: What's her demeanor like?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 6: Remember, even though they suspect, even though they suspect her
Speaker 6: of being involved, they haven't charged her with murder. Only
Speaker 6: Hemi is charged with the murder. And so he goes
Speaker 6: on trial, and she is the key witness. Now, remember
Speaker 6: her whole thing is, I didn't know he did this.
Speaker 6: My god, he's crazy. How would I know that this
Speaker 6: guy would go off the handle and you know, kill
Speaker 6: my husband. I'm as much a victim here as anybody's nuts.
Speaker 6: You know, he's crazy for me? How am I supposed
Speaker 6: to know this, right? That's her sort of defense. Well,
Speaker 6: she gets on the stand and it's a disaster for
Speaker 6: her that that whole antagonistic adversarial demeanor she had with
Speaker 6: police comes out at the trial. Remember she's the prosecution witness.
Speaker 6: She is evasive, she is nasty, she is snied, she
Speaker 6: is really mean, and she won't answer simple questions. And
Speaker 6: you know, she's very, very defensive. Now she's taking the
Speaker 6: position despite all these emails, despite the butt grabbing at
Speaker 6: the bar, despite the romantic dinners, despite the hotel rooms
Speaker 6: and all this stuff. She's taken a position they did
Speaker 6: not have an affair, and who're gonna believe me or
Speaker 6: your lying eyes? And that's her position. I did not
Speaker 6: have an affair with this guy. I know it looked bad,
Speaker 6: but I didn't have an affair with him. And for
Speaker 6: some reason, this seems to be a critical issue for her,
Speaker 6: not finding justice for her dead husband. And so you know,
Speaker 6: she is combative on the witness stand. Now. The trial,
Speaker 6: unfortunately for her, is being broadcast locally and I think
Speaker 6: on HLN and so get some national coverage. It's all
Speaker 6: over the local area. It's on YouTube, and you know,
Speaker 6: she's just not coming off well now.
Speaker 7: She is also basically grilled to the inconsistencies that she
Speaker 7: has made in official statements, including her reaction to her
Speaker 7: husband's death, and then the information that she conveys to
Speaker 7: her friend. But she couldn't have possibly known. And there
Speaker 7: are a few other crucial things that she really winces
Speaker 7: at and is defensive that at trial when she is
Speaker 7: cornered regarding some of those things, doesn't.
Speaker 6: She Yeah, and he doesn't have a good explanation for it.
Speaker 6: And I think through it all, I think through it all.
Speaker 6: She has no good explanation for this. She's defensive and
Speaker 6: through it out, through the whole thing, she never gives
Speaker 6: the perception of a woman who wants to find her
Speaker 6: husband's killer and bring him to justice. I mean, you
Speaker 6: would think she would go to the ends of the
Speaker 6: earth to help police, and you would think, Okay, if
Speaker 6: she had an affair with this guy, you know, tough
Speaker 6: it out and admit it. Yeah, that's awful. You had
Speaker 6: an affair with somebody and they went off and killed
Speaker 6: your husband. That sure looks bad, but why not just
Speaker 6: admit it? Just admit it. Okay, I did it. I
Speaker 6: had an affair all right, but that doesn't mean I
Speaker 6: killed him. And keep in mind, nowhere in all these
Speaker 6: emails does she say to him, he kill my husband.
Speaker 6: So there's no smoking gun. It just you have to wonder.
Speaker 6: She just starts making herself look even guiltier than the
Speaker 6: evidence would suggest.
Speaker 7: They also have her with a major inconsistency that he
Speaker 7: was She was in I think Longmont, Colorado, and he
Speaker 7: was not with her. But then they did evidence that
Speaker 7: showed contradicted her view or our position, basically that he
Speaker 7: didn't join her, and in fact, as you can tell
Speaker 7: her audience, what he actually did. So it's a complete
Speaker 7: opposite of what she had said.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean. And during these recording, these questioning by police,
Speaker 6: she leaves out one major major incident, and that's this
Speaker 6: business trip to Colorado, and oh you know he was there.
Speaker 6: Well not only was he there, but you know he's
Speaker 6: leaving expressions of his love for her at the front desk.
Speaker 6: I think he went trying to get the front desk
Speaker 6: by her flowers. She may have I camera if you
Speaker 6: rearranged the rooms, but somehow they ended up with adjoining rooms.
Speaker 6: And then ends up there on the same flight back
Speaker 6: sitting next to each other, you know, I mean, how
Speaker 6: do you forget this? And why do you lie about it?
Speaker 7: And another difficult question for her, very especially difficult, was
Speaker 7: once she had told people that she thought Hemmy was
Speaker 7: a suspect. She told when somebody that he resembled the
Speaker 7: eyes of the sketch, and other people they asked her, well,
Speaker 7: why didn't you call police? Well, if this was a
Speaker 7: man manipulating and a domineering force at work, why didn't
Speaker 7: you What were there Her difficult answers to those questions, Well.
Speaker 6: She doesn't have a good answer, you know, and she
Speaker 6: bounces around and she basically just acts like, you know,
Speaker 6: she's the victim here and that they're picking on her.
Speaker 6: You know, nobody seemed to know who is in that
Speaker 6: sketch except her, right they issue they had this police
Speaker 6: sketch of the killer. And she tells a friend, Yeah,
Speaker 6: those eyes look like Hemmy's. You know, nobody else says that. Nobody,
Speaker 6: none of the co work, none of this, nobody seems
Speaker 6: to think it's him except her, And then she says nothing.
Speaker 6: Then she then he, on top of all that, remember,
Speaker 6: sends her the Brunomars love song that leaves that part
Speaker 6: out too. So you know, all of a sudden, she's
Speaker 6: becoming an adversarial witness when she was supposed to be,
Speaker 6: you know, she was supposed to be the prosecution's key witness.
Speaker 6: Very quickly, it looks like this trial is about her
Speaker 6: as much as it is about Himy.
Speaker 7: They also haven't. It was very interesting to me, is
Speaker 7: because I've seen the rules myself being involved that once
Speaker 7: you testify her, before you testify, if you're a witness,
Speaker 7: you don't get to hear anybody's testimony. You're still under subpoena.
Speaker 7: You may be called back again. You could influence other
Speaker 7: witnesses with the information and that you had that followed.
Speaker 7: You tell us a little bit about this, the initial
Speaker 7: decision and then the reversal.
Speaker 6: Well, I as I recall, they were going to let
Speaker 6: her you know, you meant to refresh my recollection, but
Speaker 6: they were gonna let her stay in or something. And
Speaker 6: then her friend, her friend testified, remember the friend who
Speaker 6: she told you know, he was shot and it was
Speaker 6: you know, and this was the friend she confided marital
Speaker 6: problems too, And Andrey went on to deny this, and
Speaker 6: it became kind of a bad episode of the Real
Speaker 6: Housewives of Atlanta. You know, between these two women, former
Speaker 6: friends are now at each other's throat, and there's an
Speaker 6: ugly confrontation, confrontation between Andrea and her former best friend
Speaker 6: at the courthouse, and you know, finally they had to
Speaker 6: kick you know, Andrea out of the trial. And and
Speaker 6: you know, none of this is reflecting well on her,
Speaker 6: and none of this is the kind of behavior you
Speaker 6: would think a grieving widow would exhibit.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so basically the prosecution ends in the defense wrap
Speaker 7: up their case. She doesn't do well, hemy doesn't take
Speaker 7: the stand. There is overwhelming physical evidence, all kinds of
Speaker 7: material evidence, digital phone calls, emails, eyewitness testimony, circumstantial. It's
Speaker 7: a slam dunk.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, they find him guilty. They find him insane
Speaker 6: but guilty, which is interesting finding. But they just, you know,
Speaker 6: they just couldn't reach that threshold. Yes, he has mental illness,
Speaker 6: Yes there were mitigating circumstances here in his brain, but
Speaker 6: he knew the difference between right and wrong when he
Speaker 6: pumped for bullets into Rusty Sneydermans. He wasn't that impaired.
Speaker 6: And that really is the legal standard goes back hundreds
Speaker 6: of years, and they just couldn't overcome that hurdle.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we have a different We don't have that hurdle
Speaker 7: in Canada. But it's interesting where that definition includes not
Speaker 7: being able to discern right from wrong, and that is
Speaker 7: a tough hurdle, isn't it.
Speaker 6: It is? And in the United States, after the assassination
Speaker 6: attempt on I'm trying to remember which case it was.
Speaker 6: It was either the John Lennon assassination killing or the
Speaker 6: Reagan attempt, there were some high profile cases in which
Speaker 6: the gunman claimed insanity and laws toughened here since then,
Speaker 6: almost impossible to use an insanity defense.
Speaker 7: Now in terms of what happens with Andrea and what
Speaker 7: is the betrayal in the end, after the trial concludes,
Speaker 7: of her participation and role in this, how is she depicted?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, she obviously comes off badly and initially
Speaker 6: she's charged with murder conspiring to kill her husband, and
Speaker 6: nothing that happened at the trial made it any better
Speaker 6: on her. But the DA went through the evidence and
Speaker 6: it was right. I mean literally the day or two
Speaker 6: before her trial, the DA finally dropped dropped the murder charge.
Speaker 6: Just didn't think he was gonna be able to prove
Speaker 6: it beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think what was missing.
Speaker 6: What was missing was that one email that one thing,
Speaker 6: hemmy killed my husband, Hemmy, get him out of the picture, Hemmy,
Speaker 6: I don't want him around. Any kind of any kind
Speaker 6: of even indirect indication from her to him that he
Speaker 6: should kill her. That just there, just it just wasn't there.
Speaker 6: There was a lot of evidence that pointed to a
Speaker 6: possible affair, a lot of evidence that pointed to her
Speaker 6: lying about the affair, a lot of evidence of her,
Speaker 6: you know, not cooperating with police and obstructing justice. But
Speaker 6: and you know, I think people are still debating this.
Speaker 6: In the end, the DA just did not think he
Speaker 6: could prove that she conspired to murder her husband.
Speaker 7: Did they under take the normal procedure of especially after this,
Speaker 7: after his conviction, regardless of whether they thought he was
Speaker 7: mentally ill and that you know that deduction, did the
Speaker 7: attempt to reach out to him for the normal maybe
Speaker 7: response that he might want to cooperate, now give evidence
Speaker 7: million times?
Speaker 6: You know, turn on Andrew, right, did she tell you
Speaker 6: to do this? And God bless him, he refused to
Speaker 6: say that that he did it. Angel told him to
Speaker 6: do it, you know, And it was only his lawyers
Speaker 6: who kind of implied that she toyed with his emotions,
Speaker 6: But he would not say that she put him up
Speaker 6: to it. Now, even if he did say that, they
Speaker 6: would have faced a lot of problems because here's a
Speaker 6: man whose defense was he's crazy, and now we're going
Speaker 6: to put him on the stand as a witness, you know,
Speaker 6: So it would have been problematic even if he did
Speaker 6: say it. But no, he never pointed the finger at Andrew.
Speaker 7: What do you make of that?
Speaker 6: Well, you can look at it two ways, but I
Speaker 6: think in the end you have to take it at
Speaker 6: face value and say, well, she didn't she never explicitly
Speaker 6: or implicitly told him to kill her husband, I think
Speaker 6: the larger question, and I've done books on several cases
Speaker 6: in which the wife or the girlfriend did not explicitly
Speaker 6: ask or direct the killer to kill somebody, but was
Speaker 6: able to use other means, sex, love, whatever to get
Speaker 6: him to do it. And we enter a very dangerous
Speaker 6: area here, which is, you know, is it sexist to
Speaker 6: suggest that a woman can get her way, can get
Speaker 6: her man to do something without explicitly telling him. Can
Speaker 6: a woman use her body, her love, sex, whatever to
Speaker 6: get a man to do something but not have to
Speaker 6: tell him. Can she manipulate him in that way other
Speaker 6: cases I've written about, Yes, the jury said, yep. Now
Speaker 6: she didn't say go kill him, but yeah, she used
Speaker 6: her body and used all these other feminine wiles to
Speaker 6: make it happen. In this case, the DA did not
Speaker 6: think there was enough there, So why did he not?
Speaker 6: Maybe he's telling the truth. He's crazy, but he's not
Speaker 6: lying that she never did tell him to kill my husband.
Speaker 6: You know that he really did do it at the
Speaker 6: direction of the angels, that he really did think, you know,
Speaker 6: and he's very protective, you know, I I don't want
Speaker 6: to hurt her, you know, I'm trying to save her
Speaker 6: from this horrible man, rusty.
Speaker 7: It was interesting that though typically that there would be
Speaker 7: a story attached, and there would be some evidence that
Speaker 7: at least he would say something, for example, like, well
Speaker 7: she talked about the abuse, the abuse of the children,
Speaker 7: the sexual abuse of her, or the verbal or physical
Speaker 7: abuse that seemed to be suspiciously or conspicuously absent from this.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the just it just wasn't there, you know. And
Speaker 6: even if she had lied to hem me about something
Speaker 6: in the emails or whatever. What you see in the
Speaker 6: emails is and you know this is my inference. But
Speaker 6: what you see as a woman who had been overshadowed
Speaker 6: by her husband, who had to give up her career
Speaker 6: for his had to stay home raise a couple of kids. Well,
Speaker 6: her husband went off this glamorous lifestyle and finance that
Speaker 6: they had to move to, you know, this little suburb
Speaker 6: of Atlanta because his job took him there. She had
Speaker 6: to go that. She finally got back into the workplace.
Speaker 6: Keep mind this happened only a few months after, you know,
Speaker 6: she started working again, got a really good job at
Speaker 6: General Electric, finally living her potential, making good money over
Speaker 6: one hundred thousand dollars one hundred and forty thousand dollars
Speaker 6: a year, got a good job, a good paycheck, is
Speaker 6: using her mind and her education, and her boss not
Speaker 6: only respects her, but loves her, affects her as an
Speaker 6: employee and loves her as a woman. And she is flattered,
Speaker 6: and she is feeling good about where she is. But
Speaker 6: then she backs up and thinks this is wrong. You know,
Speaker 6: she's conflicted, and there's a lot of guilt and so
Speaker 6: on the one hand, she likes the attention, and she
Speaker 6: likes the thrill of whatever it is, and whether it's
Speaker 6: an actual consummated affair or just heavy, heavy duty petting.
Speaker 6: Either way, she at times seemed to like it and
Speaker 6: be energized and excited by it, and the fact that
Speaker 6: her marriage had problems I think added to that. But
Speaker 6: at the same time then she would express guilt, anger, frustration,
Speaker 6: leave me alone, that kind of thing. So, you know,
Speaker 6: is she toying with his emotions or is she trying
Speaker 6: to resolve her own? Does she want to have this
Speaker 6: affair or not want to have this affair. It doesn't
Speaker 6: seem like she could even articulate. It depends on where
Speaker 6: you are at different points in times. So you see
Speaker 6: all this going on. What you don't see is a
Speaker 6: clear get rid of my husband. I want you to
Speaker 6: shoot and kill him. That that doesn't come out.
Speaker 7: How important do you think it is for the you know,
Speaker 7: the evidence to show that at some point she admitted
Speaker 7: that she's having an affair. He says, yeah, I'm having
Speaker 7: an affair. I have a mistress. But at some point
Speaker 7: he presents the scenario to her that yes, we can
Speaker 7: live together. You know, even though he has kids, he
Speaker 7: has an ex wife with children, and she has children.
Speaker 7: He proposes something much more than an affair, doesn't he.
Speaker 6: I mean he proposes, he proposes, you know, getting married
Speaker 6: and going off into the sunset. Keep in mind, one
Speaker 6: of the business trips, the one where they were slow
Speaker 6: dancing and groping, happened right after he split up with
Speaker 6: his wife, so right, you know, I think his feelings
Speaker 6: were a little more to the extent you can, you know,
Speaker 6: break through all the mental issues. You know, he had big,
Speaker 6: big plans for her. I think she was not really
Speaker 6: clear what she was thinking, and it seemed to change
Speaker 6: at different points in time. And you know, how do
Speaker 6: you explain why she would be so defensive about all this?
Speaker 6: And you know it you have to ask, you said, well,
Speaker 6: is she defensive because she's embarrassed by the affair and
Speaker 6: embarrassed by what her family and friends would think about it?
Speaker 6: Doubly embarrassed because she's having an affair with a guy
Speaker 6: who is so nuts that he, you know, killed her husband.
Speaker 6: I mean, that's that's embarrassing and devastating point and pride.
Speaker 6: Is she defining an affair as actual sex? I mean
Speaker 6: maybe they never actually slept with each other? Maybe it
Speaker 6: was all just romance, right, sitting in bed watching romantic
Speaker 6: movies but never actually come submating, or maybe I don't know,
Speaker 6: you know, how in her mind, how she even defines
Speaker 6: what an affair actually is. But you have to keep wondering,
Speaker 6: why was she Why would she be so defensive, why
Speaker 6: would she be putting up you know, I'm to the
Speaker 6: point where she's obstructing justice. You know, in the end,
Speaker 6: she was more embarrassed than she would ever have been before.
Speaker 6: So is she hiding something criminal or is she just
Speaker 6: hiding something embarrassing.
Speaker 7: Is there a possibility that she knew that her job
Speaker 7: would be terminated because it really was or it seemed
Speaker 7: to be dependent on Hammy Newman certainly during.
Speaker 6: During the time, Yeah, they crossed boundaries while they were well,
Speaker 6: you know, whether the affair was consummated or not, they
Speaker 6: were crossing employee employer boundaries on these trips, and it
Speaker 6: was consensual. So she wasn't going to say anything. She
Speaker 6: wasn't gonna you know, she did these things. She probably
Speaker 6: felt guilty, certainly express guilt after some of it, but
Speaker 6: at the same time, she was not going to inform
Speaker 6: HR because you know, he wasn't sexually harassing her. You know,
Speaker 6: she never claimed that, and that whatever it was they
Speaker 6: were doing, it was with her full consent.
Speaker 7: What I'm asking is, is there a possibility that she
Speaker 7: a good possibility that she didn't know and there there's
Speaker 7: no evidence that she knew of his plans to kill
Speaker 7: her husband? That what once after it seems evidence that
Speaker 7: she may have suspected, and then after that may have
Speaker 7: suspected and then detoured the police and the investigation. It
Speaker 7: seemed purposely. Is there a motive for that two million
Speaker 7: dollars in an insurance policy?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I really think I don't think the insurance in
Speaker 6: this case was the issue. I really don't. Two million
Speaker 6: seems like a lot, But when you're sitting in a big,
Speaker 6: you know, million dollar house, mortgage and all this, I
Speaker 6: just it's just for people of their station in life.
Speaker 6: It's not that big. It's big, but it's not that big.
Speaker 6: And I understand some people get murdered for a pair
Speaker 6: of tennis shoes and then you say, well, two million dollars,
Speaker 6: I don't think that was it. As for what Andrea
Speaker 6: knew and when she knew it, I don't know. I
Speaker 6: think you can make a really good case that the
Speaker 6: second she found out her husband was killed, she knew
Speaker 6: exactly who did it, knew exactly. What I can't get
Speaker 6: past is how she knew he was shot and she
Speaker 6: didn't just say to one person, right. I mean, it's
Speaker 6: in a text message to a co worker, my husband's
Speaker 6: been shot. And I can't get past the fact that
Speaker 6: she expressed this around the time that she's talking to
Speaker 6: hemmy and did he tell her in a conversation afterwards,
Speaker 6: I shot your husband? And she's like, you know, having
Speaker 6: one those oh gosh, you know moments, and she's putting
Speaker 6: it all together, right, And even though she knows she
Speaker 6: never told him to do it, everyone's gonna think she did.
Speaker 6: And she starts thinking about the business trips and the
Speaker 6: romantic dinners and all that stuff, and now it's like, Okay,
Speaker 6: now she's in trouble. Even though even though you can
Speaker 6: make a really good case that she never did tell
Speaker 6: him to do it, and probably didn't even want him
Speaker 6: to do it, right, I mean, I don't think she
Speaker 6: even wanted her husband did That doesn't make sense. But
Speaker 6: now she knows she's in big, big, big, big trouble,
Speaker 6: and it looks really bad. And then part of me
Speaker 6: thinks she wanted police. She didn't want to have to
Speaker 6: tell them, right, She didn't want to have to lay
Speaker 6: out this whole tawdry affair. She wanted police to figure
Speaker 6: it out on their own, because she did tell them
Speaker 6: in the very beginning. Yes it was my boss, you know,
Speaker 6: emmy newman. You know. She didn't have to say anything
Speaker 6: when they said, is anybody expressed? You know? So I
Speaker 6: don't know, and I think she has Remember, she's in
Speaker 6: a technical field. She understands. She understands that they can
Speaker 6: get to her email and her voicemail and all this
Speaker 6: sort of stuff, and then they can they can find information,
Speaker 6: they can look at the crest. She has some kind
Speaker 6: of basic knowledge that there's a digital trail. So she's
Speaker 6: got to say enough, you know, test some christ So,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't know. I think there was a
Speaker 6: lot of panic going on. I think in the end,
Speaker 6: I really think in the end, the DA, although it
Speaker 6: was not a populary, has made the right decision. I
Speaker 6: don't think there was enough evidence to charge her with murder.
Speaker 6: I think there was enough evidence the charger with obstruction
Speaker 6: of justice and lying the police, and all the charges
Speaker 6: that she ultimately was put on trial for. But I
Speaker 6: just don't, you know, I don't think it was there.
Speaker 6: I don't think it's there.
Speaker 7: Now. Despite this, I love this term vigorous defense for
Speaker 7: the insanity defense for him, but insane but guilty, what
Speaker 7: do you think about is real? Again? They decided that
Speaker 7: he wasn't insane by definition. But yeah, this seems all
Speaker 7: this mental illness and reporting of it seems to be
Speaker 7: awfully convenient, and there is a lot of it seems yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean it, I mean yeah, First of all, it
Speaker 6: wasn't until his defense started getting feedback on the gun
Speaker 6: and all this evidence that all of a sudden the
Speaker 6: insanity came out. Right. It didn't come out in the
Speaker 6: very beginning. He wasn't insane right after he was arrested.
Speaker 6: It wasn't until they found out about the gun and
Speaker 6: emails and all of this sudden and so it does
Speaker 6: kind of smack of some you know, kind of having
Speaker 6: to cook up at defense. At the same time, I
Speaker 6: think he I don't doubt for a second that angels
Speaker 6: were telling him to shoot you know, Rusty. I think
Speaker 6: he was crazy. I you know, there's most people say
Speaker 6: if you commit a murder by very definition, that's an
Speaker 6: insane act, you know, just by doing it, saying people
Speaker 6: don't go around killing other people. People who are unimpaired,
Speaker 6: don't go around killing other people. The cold blooded diabolical killer,
Speaker 6: I just don't think really exists. And then you can
Speaker 6: argue that person's even insane. So but it does. It
Speaker 6: did come out as awfully convenient, and you know, a
Speaker 6: lot of it didn't quite hold up. And you know,
Speaker 6: it's kind of dueling experts there near the end, and
Speaker 6: you know, you pay an expert enough money, they'll they'll
Speaker 6: say anything in court. But I think he's I think
Speaker 6: he's clearly got severe mental illness. But severe mental illness
Speaker 6: is not the standard in the United States for an acquittal.
Speaker 6: People who are on drugs, right, I mean, really impaired
Speaker 6: while on drugs or drunk get convicted of murder, and
Speaker 6: if you're mentally impaired, you get convicted of murder. It
Speaker 6: just didn't rise to that very very high level.
Speaker 7: It's very interesting. In your book, you have all the
Speaker 7: information from these psychiatrists that that assessed Hemi in prison,
Speaker 7: the preliminary and then the major interviews with doctor Flores,
Speaker 7: and then of course, another interview with the other defense psychiatrist.
Speaker 7: What I found was really crucial and very very interesting
Speaker 7: in this book was he talked to the prosecution psychiatrists.
Speaker 7: Well it wasn't a psychiatrist per se, she was. They
Speaker 7: tried to attack her credibility. But the story he gave
Speaker 7: her was I think crucial at trial because it talked
Speaker 7: about the pre planning. He thought he had somebody could
Speaker 7: do a similar story with that the other psychiatrist, but
Speaker 7: he gave her quite a bit of a different story
Speaker 7: and that didn't help on that trial.
Speaker 6: It seaks to the premeditation. And remember, let's go all
Speaker 6: the way back to the beginning of this interview. We
Speaker 6: talked about the Mexican looking guy who is lurking around
Speaker 6: the what was it an air conditioner or something at
Speaker 6: the house, the one Rusty gol Well, that was that
Speaker 6: was Himy, you know, and he was lurking around the house.
Speaker 6: That was a day he was going to kill. And
Speaker 6: there's still a lot of unanswered questions, Right, how does
Speaker 6: how did he know he's going to be dropping off
Speaker 6: the kid that day? Right? How did he know what
Speaker 6: Rusty's schedule was going to be? How did he know
Speaker 6: you know, how did he know all these things? And
Speaker 6: unless Andrea told him, and you know, there was clearly
Speaker 6: some planning and premeditation, and you have to wonder, you
Speaker 6: have to wonder, did Andrea really think it was some
Speaker 6: Mexican guy lurking around behind the house or did she
Speaker 6: know right away that it was himy, Yeah, she didn't
Speaker 6: say anything, and she raised the specter of the anonymous
Speaker 6: mysterious Mexicans, which would be you know, in that kind
Speaker 6: of community, would really put people off on the wrong tracks. So,
Speaker 6: you know, it just it just he just couldn't reach
Speaker 6: that level of not knowing with all that kind of planning.
Speaker 6: He wasn't continuously constantly crazy, right, There were long periods
Speaker 6: of lucidity when he knew what he was doing was wrong,
Speaker 6: and he did it anyway, And that's what the legal
Speaker 6: standard is.
Speaker 7: It was very interesting too. The one other thing was
Speaker 7: that when you talked about the schedule, but also I
Speaker 7: think even more important for me was that there was
Speaker 7: an escape route through the woods. There's a sidewalk there
Speaker 7: that unless he was told that, unless he again he
Speaker 7: must have done stalked her for sure, But at least
Speaker 7: he was told that that there was an escape route
Speaker 7: through that woods.
Speaker 6: Yea. You know, the house kind of butts up against
Speaker 6: a grove of trees, and it's even though it's in
Speaker 6: suburban Atlanta, it's a very kind of woodsy area. And
Speaker 6: these are big lots and lots of trees and pathways
Speaker 6: and things. And how would he know, you know, how
Speaker 6: would he know? I think one other thing which I
Speaker 6: always I raised it in the book, which I found
Speaker 6: very interesting. You're asking questions about, well, you know, what
Speaker 6: was going on in Andrea's mind. We had all this
Speaker 6: evidence about what went through Hemi's head, multiple multiple shrinks
Speaker 6: talking to him, but we don't have a psychological profile
Speaker 6: of Andrew. She didn't raise a psychological defense. We don't know.
Speaker 6: I'd be very fascinating to find out what the psychiatrist,
Speaker 6: the psychologist would have made of her. We don't know.
Speaker 6: We know what's going through Hemy's head, or at least
Speaker 6: has some very strong clues, but we don't know what
Speaker 6: was going through hers.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, more questions. Certainly. I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much Michael Fleeman for coming on talking about Crazy
Speaker 7: for You. True story of a family man's murder, wife's secret,
Speaker 7: and the deadly obsession, fascinating book, fascinating for those that
Speaker 7: might want to take a look at this. Do you
Speaker 7: have a Facebook page and a website? Tell us about that, please?
Speaker 6: I do. You can go on Michaelfleeman dot com. It's
Speaker 6: my name. You can go on Amazon and punch in
Speaker 6: my last name F L E E M A N
Speaker 6: and my profile. I have a biopage in Amazon and
Speaker 6: you can link to it through my website. You can
Speaker 6: go on Michael Fleeman on Facebook or the True Crime
Speaker 6: page on Facebook. All of those things will lead you
Speaker 6: to me. And if you want to reach out to me,
Speaker 6: go on to my website and show me not there's
Speaker 6: a contact me and that goes right into my email inbox.
Speaker 6: So I'd love to hear from everybody.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, Michael. You have a great evening.
Speaker 7: And also for fans, join me on my personal Dan
Speaker 7: Zepanski Facebook page for comments on this show and others.
Speaker 7: Thank you, have a great night, Michael, Thank you very
Speaker 7: much again.
Speaker 6: Thank you, good night.