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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

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<v Speaker 1>AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. I

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<v Speaker 1>am so thrilled to have one of my favorite guests

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<v Speaker 1>on the show. You probably remember him. He's not only

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<v Speaker 1>a colleague from cal State Channel Islands. I think he's

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<v Speaker 1>like the founder of the psychology department and they got

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<v Speaker 1>him from Harvard Medical School or something. Doctor Kevin Vulcan.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you? Are you blushing?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I'm terribly blushing, Wendy. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>No, You're like, uh, you know, you're You're like a warm, loving,

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<v Speaker 1>caring person, but you're also in encyclopedia. And that's what

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<v Speaker 1>I love about talking to you, as I always feel

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<v Speaker 1>smarter after I finished talking to you. So I brought

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<v Speaker 1>you on the show today because I want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the the most common relationship trait that people ask

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<v Speaker 1>about on the Internet. And we're talking about search terms

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<v Speaker 1>here when they have questions about love or the relationships,

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<v Speaker 1>and that search term is narcissist or narcissism. And now

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<v Speaker 1>we have these very public examples of people trying to

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<v Speaker 1>have somewhat healthy discourse with a certain narcissist who is

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<v Speaker 1>in political power now, and so I want you later

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to comment on some of the things

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<v Speaker 1>you've seen in the news. But doctor Vulcan, let's start

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<v Speaker 1>at the beginning. What actually is a narcissist, because there

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<v Speaker 1>are a lot of people that are just selfish that

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<v Speaker 1>aren't narcissists, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, So I like to consider narcism as a spectrum.

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<v Speaker 2>We have healthy narcissism, which also can be considered to

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<v Speaker 2>be having a healthy sense of self esteem, a healthy

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<v Speaker 2>sense of yourself. We have something I call compensatory narcissism.

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<v Speaker 2>And usually this is a kind of a narcissism where

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<v Speaker 2>someone usually sometime in later childhood, middle childhood, six five, six, seven, eight,

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<v Speaker 2>nine years old, they have some kind of what we

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<v Speaker 2>all call narcisstic wounding, something happens to them, some kind

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<v Speaker 2>of traumatic event, and then they they compensate for that.

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<v Speaker 2>They they try to fill in the empty space they

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<v Speaker 2>have from that event by by pumping themselves up. And

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<v Speaker 2>these are people who generally very easily in psychotherapy or

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<v Speaker 2>even just you know, if you can get them to

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<v Speaker 2>think about themselves and reflect will realize that they're being narcissistic,

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<v Speaker 2>that that they are pumping themselves up the Actually, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they have insight and they can relate to other people

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<v Speaker 2>in a healthy manner. And you know a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>politicians you can think of her like that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I think of the example that come to mind for

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<v Speaker 2>me are Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. You know, both

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<v Speaker 2>of them, you know, lost their dads when they were kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of traumatic and you see this sometimes in kids

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<v Speaker 2>who are divorced parents, and then they compensate for that

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<v Speaker 2>they go into a field where they're going to get

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<v Speaker 2>lots of attention. They're going to be able to show

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<v Speaker 2>how great they are and.

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<v Speaker 1>They and is a field of public service. Right, my

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<v Speaker 1>fingers are making quotation.

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<v Speaker 2>Mark the publisher's something where they're going to be in

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<v Speaker 2>the public eye. But you know, these are people that

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<v Speaker 2>if you who actually probably sat down and talked to them,

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<v Speaker 2>would you seem warm and like they really cared about you,

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<v Speaker 2>and they probably really would care about you. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to somebody worse on the spectrum who have what

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<v Speaker 2>we call narcissistic personality disorder. This is a diagnosed personality disorder.

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<v Speaker 2>And these are people who the trauma has come very

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<v Speaker 2>early in their childhood, in infancy, and they have a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of appearance that gives them a message of I

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<v Speaker 2>hate you, don't leave me. But then adds on to

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<v Speaker 2>that the fact that the child is special. Give the

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<v Speaker 2>child the sense of feeling special, and what they do

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<v Speaker 2>is they coalesce their sense of self, their sense of

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<v Speaker 2>who they are, their identity around this feeling of being special.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is is that feeling special is transitory, so

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<v Speaker 2>they don't feel that way all the time. So they

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<v Speaker 2>need constant admiration. They constantly need to be pumped up.

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<v Speaker 2>If they don't feel like they're getting pumped up, the

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<v Speaker 2>don't feel like they're getting the admiration to them, it

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<v Speaker 2>feels like annihilation. It feels like they're gonna die, they're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna gonna exist anymore. So they constantly have to get

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<v Speaker 2>attend and constantly have to get admiration. And then we

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<v Speaker 2>add sort of the most severe into the spectrum of

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<v Speaker 2>the malignant narcissists. And malignant narcissists have to get the

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<v Speaker 2>admiration of the regular narcisstic personalities ordered person. But they

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<v Speaker 2>get that admiration through having their followers go out and

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<v Speaker 2>perform violence on some kind of targeted group, some kind

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<v Speaker 2>of group that they project all their bad things onto

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<v Speaker 2>and then they get their followers to go out and

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<v Speaker 2>get rid of those people.

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<v Speaker 1>To those malignant narcissists always have followers or do they

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I'm picturing a ruthless CEO, right, he'll get

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<v Speaker 1>other management to do the dirty work. Or do they

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<v Speaker 1>do it themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be a way of their followers in the

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<v Speaker 2>sense of their people that got to pay they have

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<v Speaker 2>to pay attention to the narcissists. So CEOs could be

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<v Speaker 2>a good example political leaders, of course, you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>like Hitler. Hitler is a great example of malignant narcissists.

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<v Speaker 2>We have more in recent times, you know. And then

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<v Speaker 2>we have people we could debate whether how malignant they are,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're showing some signs of it. But those are

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<v Speaker 2>the people you really want to be careful about. But

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<v Speaker 2>we do see them among CEOs, And there's been studies

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<v Speaker 2>of CEOs to find that CEOs also have lots of

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<v Speaker 2>characteristics of what we call antisocial personalities order but most

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<v Speaker 2>people would know this as psychopathy or sociopathy. A psychopath

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<v Speaker 2>or a sociopath and malignant narcissts share a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>traits with psychopaths or sociopaths, and I'm using those terms interchangeably.

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<v Speaker 2>There's some small definitional differences, but for our conversation those

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<v Speaker 2>aren't really important. So just think of psychopath.

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<v Speaker 1>Where the rules don't belong to them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, rules don't belong to them. They do whatever they

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<v Speaker 2>want to get whatever they whatever they want, They'll do

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it takes. They don't really have a sense of conscience,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, those kinds of things. A lot of criminals

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<v Speaker 2>or psychopaths, that kind of thing, and the malignant narcists

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<v Speaker 2>will have a lot of traits in common with those people.

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<v Speaker 2>And we studies have been done and found like CEOs

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<v Speaker 2>have lots of the Some CEOs have lots of psychopathic traits,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're not necessarily psychopaths. They just have some of

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<v Speaker 2>the traits. And you can kind of say the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing about some narcissists, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, I want to share a secret with you. When

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<v Speaker 1>I was a young, hot blonde in my twenties and modeling,

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<v Speaker 1>I was objectified by a lot of these wealthy, successful,

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<v Speaker 1>powerful guys, and my girlfriends at the time would be like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you should go out with him, or he should be

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<v Speaker 1>he'd be a great boyfriend for you. Oh my god,

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<v Speaker 1>he'd be a great first husband, they used to say.

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<v Speaker 1>And I never kissed the ring like they took a

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<v Speaker 1>few sniffs of me, and they'd be like, she's not

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<v Speaker 1>playing this game right. And I always thought to myself,

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<v Speaker 1>why don't I fit in with this power crowd. I

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<v Speaker 1>look like I should and I'm smart, but I just

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't do that game. So let's talk about having a

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<v Speaker 1>relationship with somebody who has Let's not talk about malignant

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<v Speaker 1>narcissists because we shouldn't have relationships with him. But you

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<v Speaker 1>know ones that have narcissistic traits? Is there a certain

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<v Speaker 1>personality type that they are most often attracted to, that

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<v Speaker 1>there are vulnerable to their you know, magical ways.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let's keep it, let's keep it simple. I like

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<v Speaker 2>simple explanations, So my psychology colleagues may disagree with us,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think this makes sense. The person who will

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<v Speaker 2>hang out with the narcisst is either not smart enough

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<v Speaker 2>to know that they're being manipulated by the narcissts, or

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<v Speaker 2>they're really smart and they know that because the person

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<v Speaker 2>is narcisstic, that the narcissist can be manipulated. So you

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<v Speaker 2>got people either really not smart or really very smart

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<v Speaker 2>and very strategic, and those are the people who who

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<v Speaker 2>will tend to hang around the narcissists.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes sense, right, And also I find if it's

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<v Speaker 1>a male narcissist, really highly sensitive empathetic women because they

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<v Speaker 1>feel sorry for the wound, and they will hang out

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<v Speaker 1>there as the doormat.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, And a lot of times the narcissists can

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<v Speaker 2>manipulate these kind of women, especially women who have a

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<v Speaker 2>rescue er complex or have a kind of a mommy complex.

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<v Speaker 2>They want to fix the guy. And this is true

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<v Speaker 2>with other personality types as well. The not just the narcisst,

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<v Speaker 2>but the narcisst will take advantage of that to get

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<v Speaker 2>attention from women like this. So they'll they'll they'll they'll

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<v Speaker 2>they'll use that, they'll give the woman what they want

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<v Speaker 2>enough of make him think they are they are fixing

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<v Speaker 2>this person. But then there but then at the end,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the narciss just getting attention. That's the main thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's some great examples in the media.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if any of your followers have watched

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<v Speaker 2>the television show Mythic Quest, which is and I was.

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<v Speaker 1>Going to mention White Lotus because there's a.

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<v Speaker 2>The New Ver, the New the new season of White Lotus.

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<v Speaker 2>There's some great examples of this and uh, but Mythic Quest,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the one of the main characters, is a

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<v Speaker 2>perfect example of this kind of narciss I mean, he's

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<v Speaker 2>just absolutely textbook.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest professor, founder of the psychology department at California

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<v Speaker 1>State University, Channel I doctor Kevin Vulcan, who has written

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<v Speaker 1>about and studied the minds of power people narcissists. All right,

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about relationships with narcissists. I want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about what's been going on in our news because I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think you hold back your diagnosis when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the leader of the country. Right now, how would

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<v Speaker 1>you diagnose him?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I have gone down in print as diagnosing him

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<v Speaker 2>as being narcissistic, But I will make the point that

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<v Speaker 2>I diagnosed him long before he went into politics. So

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<v Speaker 2>I maintained I don't need to change my mind about

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<v Speaker 2>things just because the guy went and got himself elected.

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<v Speaker 2>But yes, I think I think you know to some

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<v Speaker 2>degree he is is a textbook narcissist. Shows lots of

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<v Speaker 2>the signs, if not most of, if all of them,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have gone. You know, I feel a little

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<v Speaker 2>there's a little paranoia in saying this out loud to

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<v Speaker 2>the to the audience, and I don't want to. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to disparage anybody's political beliefs or the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that you like somebody, because the truth of the matter is,

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<v Speaker 2>there's narciss in all political spectrums. There's plenty of narciss

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<v Speaker 2>on the left, there's plenty of narcists in the right,

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<v Speaker 2>there's narciss in the middle, and you know they're they're

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<v Speaker 2>all over the place. So I don't want to disparage

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<v Speaker 2>anybody's political thoughts just because the person elected is a narcisst.

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<v Speaker 2>But certainly that that would have been my diagnosis. And

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<v Speaker 2>I will make the caveat this is a diagnosis from

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<v Speaker 2>a distance, so it's only a preliminary thought. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>anything official because you know, we are as psychologists not

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to be diagnosing people unless you know we are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing them, you know, personally and everything. So anything I

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<v Speaker 2>say is is is some is somewhat speculative.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, well, personal opinion. So well, what's interesting is that

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<v Speaker 1>various world leaders and they may have their own versions

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<v Speaker 1>of narcissism. As you said, the politics attract them, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Various leaders of other countries have shown up at the

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<v Speaker 1>White House to meet them, and I've noticed a different

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<v Speaker 1>kind of style of relating. And I wanted you to

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<v Speaker 1>point out, not because we need to have a conversation

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<v Speaker 1>about politics, but because there's information here for all of

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<v Speaker 1>us in our relationships. A lot of people listening might

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<v Speaker 1>be in a relationship who's a little with somebody who

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<v Speaker 1>has a little bit of narcissism. Right. You mentioned it's

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<v Speaker 1>a spectrum, and so there are different ways that they

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<v Speaker 1>could relate. Could you compare for me how the leader

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<v Speaker 1>of the UK Prime Minister Kiir Starmer related to President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump compared to say Zelensky from Ukraine. What were the

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<v Speaker 1>big differences there?

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<v Speaker 2>So, you know Starmar as far as I know, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not an expert on Starmer, but I know what

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<v Speaker 2>I know of him is that he's kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit He's got a kind of a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>obsessive compulsive personality in a good way. You know, He's

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<v Speaker 2>very detail oriented, might have a little bit of social anxiety.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes he comes off being a little enigmatic, sterious, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's basically kind of lacked a lot of charisma and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, but he did a smart thing for Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>He knew that Trump responds to flattery. So he got

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<v Speaker 2>this invitation from the King, you know, and brought it

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<v Speaker 2>to Trump. And that was a pretty good strategy. That

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't a bad strategy. But he wasn't He wasn't prepared

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<v Speaker 2>with a contingency, not flexible enough personality wise. When that

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<v Speaker 2>didn't go well, right, and I can't remember what exactly

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<v Speaker 2>was somebody else got an invitation or something and that

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<v Speaker 2>didn't go well. So he wasn't able to, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>switch gears really quick. And so are.

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<v Speaker 1>You saying that some narcissists don't even know that they're

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<v Speaker 1>being flattered? And you mentioned earlier that there are two

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of people in the aura of a narcissist. One

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<v Speaker 1>are people who might not understand that they're being manipulated,

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<v Speaker 1>and another group who are highly intelligent and manipulate the

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<v Speaker 1>narcissist back. So are you saying that some narcissists, you

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<v Speaker 1>can flatter them and compliment them and they just eat

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<v Speaker 1>it up. They don't even know that it's a game.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, whether they know or not, the need for attention

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<v Speaker 2>and to have that sense of self pumped up so much,

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<v Speaker 2>what we call the grandiose self. Keep that pumped up

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<v Speaker 2>is so important. That's an existential question for these people.

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<v Speaker 2>If that grandiose self is not pumped up, they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to feel like they don't exist. So that overrides anything

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<v Speaker 2>they might realize that this guy's flattering them, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>unless unless it's something so obvious that the strategy is

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<v Speaker 2>and the narciss knows it's going to in the end,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, damage their reputation or keep them from getting attention. Generally,

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<v Speaker 2>they won't really care as much as long as they're

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<v Speaker 2>getting that admiration coming in, that attention coming in. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think Starmer, you know, started to a good idea,

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<v Speaker 2>but he didn't really he wasn't really flexible enough to

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<v Speaker 2>adap on the fly to Trump being somewhat erratic. And

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<v Speaker 2>Trump is a little bit erratic, you know, in the

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<v Speaker 2>way he's dealing with things, and that also may be

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<v Speaker 2>a strategy that Trump uses, but this guy wasn't. He

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't really able to really on the fly flexibly adapt

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<v Speaker 2>at least that's my take on it. And I would

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<v Speaker 2>say also there are other leaders that are similar to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say the German Prime Minister Schultz, similar to Starmer,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, again, very pragmatic, very you know, detail oriented guy,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit obsessive, also kind of you know, having

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<v Speaker 2>a relationship with Trump. Very difficult for these kind of guys, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think worse for Zelensky because he's he was

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<v Speaker 1>having his own existential crisis, which is living or dying

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<v Speaker 1>as a country.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes. And Zolensky, however, is more I think emotionally

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<v Speaker 2>intelligent and is very charismatic. He's also creative and very adaptable,

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<v Speaker 2>very resilient. But as you said, he's in a very

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<v Speaker 2>very bad situation. He's being attacked by one of the

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<v Speaker 2>people that Trump most admires and sees himself in, which

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<v Speaker 2>is Putin, and so Zelenski becomes a foil that Trump

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<v Speaker 2>can then project his own negative qualities onto and then

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<v Speaker 2>it becomes very easy to beat Zelenski Wili's down. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think we saw that in the White House meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>To some degree, Zelensky has not figured out how to

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<v Speaker 2>manipulate Trump, or we manipulate Trump's need for admiration and

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<v Speaker 2>attention to his Let me.

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<v Speaker 1>Ask you this question. So, when Zolensky got out of

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<v Speaker 1>the car, and the first thing President Trump did is

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<v Speaker 1>insult his clothes, and I thought that was interesting. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of a little like a shot across the bow,

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<v Speaker 1>like let me see if I have control over you,

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<v Speaker 1>let me kick you a little bit. And what could

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<v Speaker 1>Zelensky have said in response to I think President Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>made a sarcastic comment like, I see you dressed up

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<v Speaker 1>for the occasion. What could Zelenski have said to, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kiss the ring bow down to him?

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<v Speaker 2>At that point he should have said, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 2>again this is my opinion, he should have said, you're

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely right, President Trump, will you please help me to

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<v Speaker 2>find the right clothes because you are such a fantastic dresser?

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<v Speaker 1>Would and he would have ed.

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<v Speaker 2>He has a hard time doing that because Zolensky has

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<v Speaker 2>not only you know, his own sense of self work,

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<v Speaker 2>which is being attacked, you know, in a physical existential way,

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<v Speaker 2>but he also has to and these leaders, you have

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<v Speaker 2>to remember, they have to respond also not just to Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>but to their constituents. So they have two, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>very opposite kinds of you know images they have to project,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've got to find a balance between those things.

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<v Speaker 2>And Zolensky, you know, when he got in the White

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<v Speaker 2>House and he's starting he's trying to talk to Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>he's trying to tell Trump things, He's trying to talk

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<v Speaker 2>over Trump, And that's just a big mistake. Right away,

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<v Speaker 2>when I was watching that, I knew that was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a mistake.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, doctor Bulk, we're running out of time again. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so sorry. Before we go, just some very quick thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on if somebody is in a relationship with somebody who

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<v Speaker 1>has pretty strong narcissistic traits, is there any way for

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<v Speaker 1>it to work out or should they be thinking about leaving?

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<v Speaker 2>It really dependent on the person and the individual. If

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<v Speaker 2>somebody is really on this more severe end of the

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<v Speaker 2>narcissistic personality disorder spectrum, probably best to like maybe take

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<v Speaker 2>a break and then reassess and maybe think that's not

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<v Speaker 2>going to necessarily be the best situation. It's very hard

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<v Speaker 2>to change that kind of narcissist. They're not really going

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<v Speaker 2>to change very easily.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, don't hope they're going to change, that's for sure. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Kevin Vulcan, it's always a pleasure to have you

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<v Speaker 1>on the show I hope to have you again in

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<v Speaker 1>the future. You have such good wisdom to add into

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<v Speaker 1>our lives. Thanks for being with us.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, and.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, I want everyone to know that you

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<v Speaker 1>do have a new book out. It is called Human Aggression,

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<v Speaker 1>War and Genocide. Ooh, it's a dark topic. The subtitle

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<v Speaker 1>The Psychological Roots of Violence by doctor Kevin Vulcan. You

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<v Speaker 1>can find it anywhere Human Aggression, War and Genocide.