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Every week, 58 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.280 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 59 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:32.319 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 60 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:46.919 journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. For more than 61 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:51.000 a century, doctor Thomas Neil Cream has been listed as 62 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.960 a potential jack the Ripper suspect. Indeed, he was a 63 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:59.280 sinister character praying on the unfortunate souls who were forced 64 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.719 to make a living street walkers in Victorian London and 65 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:08.120 ultimately led those poor women to an ultimately and torturous death. 66 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:13.639 These crimes eventually branded him the Lambeth Poisoner. However, during 67 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.879 the time of the heinous Ripper murders, doctor Cream was 68 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:21.400 incarcerated in Juliet Prison, Illinois. Over the decades, this fact 69 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:23.639 alone has caused debate as to whether or not he 70 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:27.439 deserves to be under suspicion of being the Whitechapel fiend. 71 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.280 Was it possible that Doctor Cream bribed his way out 72 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:34.719 of jail. Perhaps he used a doppelganger to take his 73 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.479 place whilst secretly finding a passage to England with murder 74 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:43.120 and Mind. This fascinating book, told from the standpoint of 75 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:48.759 Cream himself, explains the twisted logic behind his actions, done 76 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:53.639 considerable and meticulous research tracing Cream's life from his adolescent 77 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.759 years in Canada to his last moment on the gallows 78 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.840 at Newgate. The book that we're featuring this evening is 79 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.840 Prisoner four three seven four with my special guest, journalist 80 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:10.319 and author AJ Griffiths Jones. Welcome to the program and 81 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.439 thank you for agreeing to this interview. AJ Griffiths Jones, 82 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:15.520 thank you. 83 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:19.600 Good evening, then, good evening. Thank you very much for 84 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:21.480 joining us on the program this evening. 85 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:23.319 You're well. 86 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:27.480 Now, if you could tell us what your background is 87 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.720 and how you came to be the person that wanted 88 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.000 to write Prisoner four three seven four, How you came 89 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:37.680 to this story and how you came to want to 90 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:39.839 and be in a position to write this book. 91 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.959 Okay, Well, when I was nineteen, I moved down to 92 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.720 London to Let's on to work, and I became involved 93 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:53.920 in going to Jack the Rippertools and the East End 94 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.560 and become quite interested in the whole story of Jack 95 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.360 the Ripprin, that was the murder mystery of it were, 96 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.160 And then started buying books down there and learning about 97 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:08.439 the subject. And I was quite interested in one particular suspect, 98 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.759 who was Dr Thomas Neil Queen, who supposedly used to 99 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.920 wear a horseshoe type in. It was said that one 100 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.439 of the witnesses that saw Jack the Ripper running away 101 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.959 from the crime scene actually saw him wearing a horseshoe 102 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.439 type in. So, you know, being young, I thought, oh, well, 103 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.120 perhaps it was Dr Crean. So I went to the 104 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.079 Old Bailey and had a look at his records there 105 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.160 and became very interested in him and spent about ten 106 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:39.240 years researching his life and looking for clues. Then I 107 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.600 actually moved over to Shanghai for ten years and I 108 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:45.399 lived over there as a language training manager and pretty 109 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.879 much had to put my research on hold because of 110 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:52.399 being in China. It was quite difficult to actually work 111 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:54.879 on the research there. We came back to the UK 112 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.680 three years ago, and on doing that I decided at 113 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.199 the best place to look got the research out again, 114 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:02.759 and I thought the best place to look is to 115 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.720 actually ask Joliet to State Penitentiary if there's anything less 116 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.240 pertend to his files, and there was. There was a 117 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.560 huge file in that and almost two hundred pages in 118 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.920 his prison file containing lots and lots of documents, and 119 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.279 that actually gave me the evidence of his whereabouts in 120 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.079 eighteen eighty eight. So I started putting the book together. 121 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.279 Yes, now you start this book, you give a little 122 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:36.399 bit of history of Thomas Neil Cream. You say he's 123 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:42.040 a son of a migrant lumber merchant later lumber merchant 124 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.839 and born of a god hearing Scottish family. But you 125 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.519 take us almost immediately in the book into diving into 126 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.959 the action to have a twenty four year old Thomas 127 00:06:55.079 --> 00:07:00.560 Neil Cream and he is in Mansfield Street, Montreal, eighteen 128 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.439 seventy four, two years into his medical degree at McGill University. 129 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.439 Tell us from there what the situation is with his 130 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.879 father and in terms of finances and why and how 131 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.800 he has he's in a position that he is in Montreal. 132 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.680 The second year into his medical degree. The influence of 133 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:26.680 his father tell us about Thomas Neil Cream at that 134 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:30.800 time eighteen seventy four in Montreal and Okay. 135 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.800 Well, the family actually came over to Canada when Thomas 136 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.879 was about six years old, and his father was actually 137 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:43.040 managing a lumber company and quite quickly got to the 138 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:48.199 top of his trade and ended up owning the lumber 139 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.000 merchants and Thomas was apprenticed there when he was about seventeen. 140 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:54.720 And it was also during that time that his mother 141 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.759 was quite ill and he was the main member of 142 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.279 the family who nursed his mother. And his father thought 143 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.279 that he had quite an aptitude for you know, doctoring skills, 144 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.800 and Thomas wasn't that interested in working at the lumber firm. 145 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:11.879 It was a little bit too much like hard work 146 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.079 for him. He did, he used to teach at Sunday 147 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.319 School as well. He's done very talented pianist and musician. 148 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.680 He worked at Sunday School as well, but his father 149 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:25.360 runs when he left school, his father decided that perhaps 150 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.160 that would be a good idea to send him to university, 151 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.800 and Thomas thought it was a good idea too, so 152 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:37.440 on his mother's death, his father decided to invest money 153 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.600 and yet send him there to do his training. 154 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.240 Now you talk about his time at McGill University in 155 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:52.600 Montreal and what he does in his spare time and 156 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.679 how he manages his money. So tell us what his 157 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.679 life is like, what his lifestyle is like, and to 158 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.440 just begin to talk about the emerging and evolving character 159 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:07.559 of Thomas Neil Kream. 160 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:12.399 Yeah, you can see by some of the photographs in 161 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:13.799 the book, he was a bit of a jack the 162 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:17.039 lad He was a very charismatic character. He liked good clothes. 163 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.159 He is a bit of a gambler, you know. He 164 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:24.399 liked the ladies and he liked a good time. So 165 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:29.240 his father found that he was constantly financing his son 166 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.360 for you know, the fine things in life that he wanted. 167 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:36.120 And then he had a bit of a wild time 168 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:40.919 there actually in Montreal. It actually then would believe that 169 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:44.519 it was actually then that he contracted syphilis from the prostitute. 170 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.039 So that could have stemmed from his need for revenge 171 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:51.279 over the years living the high life. 172 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:58.480 Now you say at this time that he contacted syphilis 173 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:02.840 in Montreal partaking in these ladies of the night. As 174 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.919 he said, Now, what was the side effects from what 175 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.480 from the syphilis? How much did they really know about 176 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:13.720 syphilis at that time, and what was the at least 177 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:18.519 immediate remedy for the headaches and the syphilists that he 178 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.200 knew he had contracted. 179 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.919 Okay, well, he was taking small amounts of strictly in 180 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.879 a morphine. Initially it was morphine. He was advised by 181 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:36.360 one of his fellow students on what to take, and 182 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.759 his friend had actually graduated in venereal diseases and he 183 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:47.399 advised him that taking pinches of morphine would help his 184 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:53.039 headaches that he was having at the time. Initially those 185 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:54.960 were the only he had a few tremors, but those 186 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:58.320 were the only really serious side effects that he had 187 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.399 with the headaches. But actually, over the years he's turned 188 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:06.399 into debilitating migraines where he was getting such pain behind 189 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.879 his eyes and it was affecting his vision. He was 190 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.919 born with a short sightedness anyway, but his eye deteriorated 191 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:19.200 more quickly because of the syclist. And you know, basically 192 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.679 he had to keep increasing his dosage and he was 193 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:28.159 mixing different kinds of opiates to control his nightmares and 194 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:34.360 his migraines and his pains, his aching bones and you 195 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:35.440 know his general condition. 196 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:42.039 Now you introduce a character that everything was seemed to 197 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:48.559 be going well, and he graduated in March eighteen seventy 198 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:53.559 six doctor of Medicine and Master of Surgery, and he 199 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:56.399 had convinced his father, you right, that to cover his 200 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:59.840 cast returned to Britain and he planned to in rule 201 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.200 a postgraduate course at Saint Thomas's Hospital and South in 202 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.759 South London. And everything was born according to plan until 203 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.159 he met a miss Flora Brooks. So tell us about 204 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:18.120 how he meets Flora Brooks and her influence and her 205 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.080 changing of his life quite dramatically. 206 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:27.279 Okay, So Flora was actually visiting. She was having a 207 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:31.039 little a little break with some family members and she's 208 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.399 visiting Montreal. They just really, over a matter of a 209 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.159 few weeks they started going out dating and she was 210 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.279 a very attractive young lady and Cream was happy to 211 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.120 take her out and have her on his arm. But 212 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.759 unfortunately she became pregnant. And what he decided was that 213 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:55.399 he'd already he'd already you know, booked his place on 214 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.720 the course and he was definitely going to go to England. 215 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.279 So he decided that the best route to take would 216 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.440 be as he was a skilled surgeon himself, was to 217 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:07.639 perform an abortion on her. He thought it'd be quite 218 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.120 a simple operation, that he could rid himself as the 219 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:16.000 child and any incumberment and not you know his attachment 220 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.559 to Flora. Unfortunately, he performed it at the hotel. He 221 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.600 sent her back home on the train the next day, 222 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.240 but she was heavily bleeding and her father out to 223 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.759 call in a local doctor who found out what had happened, 224 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:38.759 and in the event, Flora's father marched down to the 225 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.399 hotel where Creedan's in the bar with a shotgun and 226 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.399 his sons with him and forced him back to their 227 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:52.879 hometown and he ended up marrying Floras clever as he was, 228 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:55.320 though the next morning after the wedding he escaped out 229 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.879 of the window while everybody else was still sleeping, and 230 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.320 he took his passage back to England on the twelfth 231 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.759 of September. So he was actually only married for one 232 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.279 one day with his bride before he actually escaped. 233 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:16.320 Now, you talk about his diabolical character in his you 234 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.679 throughout this book, but to show to demonstrate after a 235 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.960 year he gets notice of something happening to his one 236 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.279 day marriage his wife. What does he do as a 237 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:30.879 result of that. 238 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:38.840 Yeah, she died of consumption basically, it's kind of a 239 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.080 condition that they used to call for tuberculosis. And she 240 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:47.559 was very very unhappy and it took her a year. 241 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.399 She actually wasted away and she died. He decided that 242 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.519 he would like to have some money of her, that's 243 00:14:55.559 --> 00:15:00.919 her widow, and he sent a letter to the asking 244 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.080 for a thousand dollars, which they weren't very impressed with. 245 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:06.799 But then they realized that they weren't going to get 246 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.039 rid of him very easily and saw the Brooks. His 247 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.720 father actually owned a hotel, so there were a very 248 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.240 rich family. So Creams thought that he could extort some 249 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.679 money out of them. In the end, he did settle 250 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:19.039 for just two hundred dollars. 251 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:26.919 Yeah, incredible, now, you right, he still had these headaches 252 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:30.519 and these plagued by these headaches, but he also had 253 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:36.000 this expert knowledge about chloroform from his training at McGill. 254 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:44.919 And he goes on. Now he also travels to Edinburgh, Scotland. 255 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.360 But tell us or in Glasgow as well, tell us 256 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:53.080 what he is, what his impressions are of Scotland, but 257 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.879 what he really desires to do and get back to. 258 00:15:57.799 --> 00:15:59.879 Yeah, he's been living the high life at Saint Thomas. 259 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:01.759 But he'd made some good friends down there. I mean, 260 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:07.279 London was quite a vibrant city, probably the same as 261 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.440 New York was at the time, and he was having 262 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.279 a good old time down there. But he needed to 263 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:17.080 He couldn't get into the college in London to take 264 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.440 his final examination, so he ended to put the Royal 265 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:23.759 Colleges and Physicians and Surgeons in Edinburgh, and he found 266 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:25.840 it quite a dreary city. I mean, I suppose it's 267 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.960 very cold and very wet up north in Scotland. And 268 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.840 despite him being born in Glasgow, he didn't actually remember 269 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.639 anything of Scotland because remember he left when he was 270 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.960 only six years old. But he did stay there. He 271 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.519 actually he knuckled down and he finished his studies and 272 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:49.480 he took got his master's degree at Edinburgh, and from 273 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.960 there he went back down to Saint Thomas's and said 274 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.960 goodbye to his friends. But he was in need of 275 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.639 funds after that, so it was back to Canada with 276 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:01.200 him in eighteen seventy nine. 277 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:06.839 Now you talk about what he's qualified to do, we 278 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.880 had the took it upon himself to do the abortion 279 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:15.160 of his pregnant girlfriend. But what is he qualified as 280 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.119 and what does he work as? Really? 281 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:25.079 Okay, he's qualified as a general surgeon and physician, so 282 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:30.519 say the nowadates a general practitioner. And he worked as 283 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.599 an obstetric clerk when he was in the Saint Thomas's Hospital. 284 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.039 Mainly really, while he was studying, it was to get 285 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:43.160 some extra money and to fund his lifestyle. But when 286 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:47.880 he returned to Canada, he decided that's a good thing 287 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.079 to do would be to open a clinic in dunder 288 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.200 Street in Ontario. It was close enough to the family 289 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.799 to still be able to get money off his father 290 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.480 if he needed to, if he needed to lean on 291 00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:59.839 him a little bit, but he was still in the 292 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:04.519 handiness on his own. So he opened this women's twinic 293 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.000 basically as an abortionist. 294 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:12.359 Now you also talk about this time and you had 295 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.839 mentioned the horseshoe tie pin, and you say in the 296 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:20.319 book that that Cream really liked this tie pin, this 297 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.319 piece of jewelry very much, and in fact had a 298 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.960 photo of this when mugging for the photo with this jewelry. 299 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:30.400 But at that time you talk about and we'll talk 300 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.079 about its importance later, but you had mentioned it the 301 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.000 horseshoe tie pin is given to a friend. Tell us 302 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.720 a little bit about the horseshoe tie pin and this 303 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.599 exchange apparently supposedly. 304 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.240 Okay, the photograph of Dr Cream with the source sheet 305 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.319 type and actually fits on my desk while I'm working, 306 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.640 and I actually have that here. He was very attached 307 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.079 to it and he used to wear it in his 308 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.000 early days in London, but it's not been found amongst 309 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.440 his artifacts that were fun. We've got his spectacles which 310 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.960 are at the Science Museum, and letters and his clothing 311 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.480 was actually brought by Madame Tussorts, his suits and things, 312 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.000 but the horshoe typing didn't turn up. And I do 313 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.799 actually believe that the gentleman that I'm investigating now, who 314 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:19.039 we would just call Are, actually had that horshoe typing, 315 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:26.000 that it was gifted to him and the nature. 316 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:28.680 Go ahead. 317 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.519 Sorry sorry, I was just going to say the nature 318 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.359 of the research that I'm doing now, I can't actually 319 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.680 identify who Are is at the moment. 320 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.000 You can't identify who this is, and you do just refer. 321 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:46.799 To this, but I can't tell you. I'm afraid because 322 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:48.160 there will be a second book on that. 323 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.319 Yeah, now you talk about this just for the record. 324 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.079 In this. 325 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.720 Book, you write this book from a certain perspective, and 326 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.759 that's from an autobiograph. I guess a fictional stance in 327 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.720 terms of ido biographical, but you do take the material again, 328 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.519 this is non fiction. You do talk about why you 329 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:18.000 adopted that writing perspective, which is unusual. So tell us 330 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:19.079 why he did do that. 331 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.640 Okay, it's it's quite unconventional. You see. I wanted to 332 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.680 write it as a non fiction book because I had 333 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.680 all the prison files and I had all the information 334 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:32.519 to put in there, and all the years of research. 335 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.319 But as I opened the files and I started reading, 336 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.640 there are notes in there from Dr Crane when he 337 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.759 was talking to his attorney during different trials that he 338 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:46.480 was involved in. So I'm actually reading some of the 339 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.680 notes in his hand, in his own words, and I 340 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.200 really wanted to kind of include that so that people 341 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.519 could understand what kind of a character he was. And 342 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:01.359 you know, you've got some there's some messages in there 343 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.359 that he really believes that he's not guilty, especially as 344 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:07.960 to the first trial that he was involved in. He 345 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.200 honestly believes that he's not guilty, and he's writing these 346 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.400 messages across his attorney. So I actually wanted to use 347 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.319 some of those words to express what he was doing 348 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.559 and what he was saying and what he was feeling 349 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:24.119 at the time. And it's quite an unconventional way to 350 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:28.000 do it, but I really felt that an autobiographical book 351 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.400 would appeal to people that interested not just in Jack 352 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.480 the Ripper, but history in general. And also to make 353 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.759 it sort of a more interesting story, but from Dr 354 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.839 Cream's standpoint rather than from the victim's standpoint or just 355 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.079 a historical standpoint. So that's kind of a decision to 356 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:45.400 do that. 357 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.599 You write in this book about Catherine Hutchison Gardner again 358 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:59.200 just to illustrate or demonstrate the character of Thomas Neil Cream. 359 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.359 Apparently she was nineteen years old and she came to 360 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.759 him for this abortion, but you didn't have any money. 361 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.160 Tell us what he does do and how again from 362 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.319 your notes you've garnered how he really feels about this. 363 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:17.799 Yeah, part of doctor Cream's moods things are related to 364 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.359 his headaches and things. And so when Catherine Gardner comes 365 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.480 to the clinic and she's very upset, she's become pregnant, 366 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.400 she's very young, she doesn't know what to do, she 367 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:31.079 can't tell a family, and you know, essentially Quam's there 368 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.920 winning his business and that's the way that he looks 369 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:36.920 at it. He's there to make money and he's there 370 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.680 to you know, perform the operation, take the money, and 371 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:44.920 that be an end to the client. So's she comes 372 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.640 along and she's she's getting very upset, telling her sob 373 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.000 story and you know, explaining everything. He tells her how 374 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.640 much the abortion is actually going to cost her, and 375 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.599 she breaks down in tears because she can't actually afford it. 376 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.960 She's a housemaid and she doesn't have the kind of 377 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.880 money that's needed to actually have the abortion at the clinic. 378 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:09.279 I think in a moment of almost anger, Doctor Queen 379 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.920 Years is a handkerchief covered in chloroform to initially calm 380 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:17.079 her down, but she struggles and so he ends up 381 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.400 putting the handkerchiefs over her face and suffocating and leads 382 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.200 her outside at the back of the outhouse, which is 383 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.400 connected to a lot of the buildings in that street, 384 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.680 so he thinks it wouldn't particularly be associated to him, 385 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.400 and it caused a lot of bad press and eventually 386 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:36.400 he had to move away from there because it was 387 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:40.160 all the newspapers and he was questioned by the police 388 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:45.880 and eventually it was Claster a murder by persons unknown 389 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.400 and he was cleared, but it still tarnished his name 390 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:50.039 quite badly. 391 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.960 So as a result, he decides to go across the border. 392 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.960 So where does he go to in eighteen seventy nine, 393 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:03.720 where does he set up another business? 394 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:09.440 Yeah, he goes to West Madison Street in Chicago, and 395 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:13.839 he's got a my fin lady called Missus Gregley who 396 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:17.160 helps him sort out his rooms. He's got his own 397 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:19.799 personal lodging and then he's got his clinic next door 398 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:23.880 and he's making quite a good business. It's you know, 399 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.400 there's plenty of clientele in the area, and he's running 400 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:32.079 his abortion clinics as well. So yeah, that's right in 401 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:34.920