Speaker 1: We're outside the travel Agency, a cannabis store that's got
Speaker 1: everyone buzz them.
Speaker 2: I walked it. I felt like I was in the
Speaker 2: elite of the skies, like I'm about to get elevated
Speaker 2: and lifted in the best way, got the important essential
Speaker 2: things I need. Sleep, So tinctures salves too, relax my
Speaker 2: body right the best New York flowers.
Speaker 1: Come down to the travel Agency and see for yourself.
Speaker 1: Preeze only by adults age twenty one an older. Keep
Speaker 1: out of reach of children and pets. In case of
Speaker 1: accellent ingestion or over consumption, contact the National Poison Control
Speaker 1: Center Consumer responsibly.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 4: It is Ryan and I was on a flight the
Speaker 4: other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot
Speaker 4: games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the
Speaker 4: person sitting next to me, and you know what they
Speaker 4: were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I
Speaker 4: think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's
Speaker 4: home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play
Speaker 4: for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So
Speaker 4: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim
Speaker 4: you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com and
Speaker 4: live the Chumba Lane.
Speaker 5: Nope for necessary DWOI where I lost?
Speaker 1: The Terms of Conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 4: gotten lucky? Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah,
Speaker 4: in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I
Speaker 4: have to say?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 4: You do? In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 3: Excuse me?
Speaker 4: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: I never win?
Speaker 1: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 4: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot
Speaker 4: com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 5: No, brig just necessary boy? Where we be?
Speaker 1: My long eighteen plus terms and conditions plus se we'sater details.
Speaker 4: Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you
Speaker 4: know this about me, but I'm a bit of a
Speaker 4: fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but
Speaker 4: I like fun too. It's a thing, and now the
Speaker 4: truth is out there, I can tell you about my
Speaker 4: favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have hundreds
Speaker 4: of social casino style games to choose from, with new
Speaker 4: games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere,
Speaker 4: and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses.
Speaker 4: So join me and the fun. Sign up now at
Speaker 4: chumbacasino dot com.
Speaker 3: No pscessary day where I lost terms and condition.
Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 6: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. For more than
Speaker 6: a century, doctor Thomas Neil Cream has been listed as
Speaker 6: a potential jack the Ripper suspect. Indeed, he was a
Speaker 6: sinister character praying on the unfortunate souls who were forced
Speaker 6: to make a living street walkers in Victorian London and
Speaker 6: ultimately led those poor women to an ultimately and torturous death.
Speaker 6: These crimes eventually branded him the Lambeth Poisoner. However, during
Speaker 6: the time of the heinous Ripper murders, doctor Cream was
Speaker 6: incarcerated in Juliet Prison, Illinois. Over the decades, this fact
Speaker 6: alone has caused debate as to whether or not he
Speaker 6: deserves to be under suspicion of being the Whitechapel fiend.
Speaker 6: Was it possible that Doctor Cream bribed his way out
Speaker 6: of jail. Perhaps he used a doppelganger to take his
Speaker 6: place whilst secretly finding a passage to England with murder
Speaker 6: and Mind. This fascinating book, told from the standpoint of
Speaker 6: Cream himself, explains the twisted logic behind his actions, done
Speaker 6: considerable and meticulous research tracing Cream's life from his adolescent
Speaker 6: years in Canada to his last moment on the gallows
Speaker 6: at Newgate. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 6: Prisoner four three seven four with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 6: and author AJ Griffiths Jones. Welcome to the program and
Speaker 6: thank you for agreeing to this interview. AJ Griffiths Jones,
Speaker 6: thank you.
Speaker 5: Good evening, then, good evening. Thank you very much for
Speaker 5: joining us on the program this evening.
Speaker 3: You're well.
Speaker 5: Now, if you could tell us what your background is
Speaker 5: and how you came to be the person that wanted
Speaker 5: to write Prisoner four three seven four, How you came
Speaker 5: to this story and how you came to want to
Speaker 5: and be in a position to write this book.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, when I was nineteen, I moved down to
Speaker 3: London to Let's on to work, and I became involved
Speaker 3: in going to Jack the Rippertools and the East End
Speaker 3: and become quite interested in the whole story of Jack
Speaker 3: the Ripprin, that was the murder mystery of it were,
Speaker 3: And then started buying books down there and learning about
Speaker 3: the subject. And I was quite interested in one particular suspect,
Speaker 3: who was Dr Thomas Neil Queen, who supposedly used to
Speaker 3: wear a horseshoe type in. It was said that one
Speaker 3: of the witnesses that saw Jack the Ripper running away
Speaker 3: from the crime scene actually saw him wearing a horseshoe
Speaker 3: type in. So, you know, being young, I thought, oh, well,
Speaker 3: perhaps it was Dr Crean. So I went to the
Speaker 3: Old Bailey and had a look at his records there
Speaker 3: and became very interested in him and spent about ten
Speaker 3: years researching his life and looking for clues. Then I
Speaker 3: actually moved over to Shanghai for ten years and I
Speaker 3: lived over there as a language training manager and pretty
Speaker 3: much had to put my research on hold because of
Speaker 3: being in China. It was quite difficult to actually work
Speaker 3: on the research there. We came back to the UK
Speaker 3: three years ago, and on doing that I decided at
Speaker 3: the best place to look got the research out again,
Speaker 3: and I thought the best place to look is to
Speaker 3: actually ask Joliet to State Penitentiary if there's anything less
Speaker 3: pertend to his files, and there was. There was a
Speaker 3: huge file in that and almost two hundred pages in
Speaker 3: his prison file containing lots and lots of documents, and
Speaker 3: that actually gave me the evidence of his whereabouts in
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty eight. So I started putting the book together.
Speaker 5: Yes, now you start this book, you give a little
Speaker 5: bit of history of Thomas Neil Cream. You say he's
Speaker 5: a son of a migrant lumber merchant later lumber merchant
Speaker 5: and born of a god hearing Scottish family. But you
Speaker 5: take us almost immediately in the book into diving into
Speaker 5: the action to have a twenty four year old Thomas
Speaker 5: Neil Cream and he is in Mansfield Street, Montreal, eighteen
Speaker 5: seventy four, two years into his medical degree at McGill University.
Speaker 5: Tell us from there what the situation is with his
Speaker 5: father and in terms of finances and why and how
Speaker 5: he has he's in a position that he is in Montreal.
Speaker 5: The second year into his medical degree. The influence of
Speaker 5: his father tell us about Thomas Neil Cream at that
Speaker 5: time eighteen seventy four in Montreal and Okay.
Speaker 3: Well, the family actually came over to Canada when Thomas
Speaker 3: was about six years old, and his father was actually
Speaker 3: managing a lumber company and quite quickly got to the
Speaker 3: top of his trade and ended up owning the lumber
Speaker 3: merchants and Thomas was apprenticed there when he was about seventeen.
Speaker 3: And it was also during that time that his mother
Speaker 3: was quite ill and he was the main member of
Speaker 3: the family who nursed his mother. And his father thought
Speaker 3: that he had quite an aptitude for you know, doctoring skills,
Speaker 3: and Thomas wasn't that interested in working at the lumber firm.
Speaker 3: It was a little bit too much like hard work
Speaker 3: for him. He did, he used to teach at Sunday
Speaker 3: School as well. He's done very talented pianist and musician.
Speaker 3: He worked at Sunday School as well, but his father
Speaker 3: runs when he left school, his father decided that perhaps
Speaker 3: that would be a good idea to send him to university,
Speaker 3: and Thomas thought it was a good idea too, so
Speaker 3: on his mother's death, his father decided to invest money
Speaker 3: and yet send him there to do his training.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about his time at McGill University in
Speaker 5: Montreal and what he does in his spare time and
Speaker 5: how he manages his money. So tell us what his
Speaker 5: life is like, what his lifestyle is like, and to
Speaker 5: just begin to talk about the emerging and evolving character
Speaker 5: of Thomas Neil Kream.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can see by some of the photographs in
Speaker 3: the book, he was a bit of a jack the
Speaker 3: lad He was a very charismatic character. He liked good clothes.
Speaker 3: He is a bit of a gambler, you know. He
Speaker 3: liked the ladies and he liked a good time. So
Speaker 3: his father found that he was constantly financing his son
Speaker 3: for you know, the fine things in life that he wanted.
Speaker 3: And then he had a bit of a wild time
Speaker 3: there actually in Montreal. It actually then would believe that
Speaker 3: it was actually then that he contracted syphilis from the prostitute.
Speaker 3: So that could have stemmed from his need for revenge
Speaker 3: over the years living the high life.
Speaker 5: Now you say at this time that he contacted syphilis
Speaker 5: in Montreal partaking in these ladies of the night. As
Speaker 5: he said, Now, what was the side effects from what
Speaker 5: from the syphilis? How much did they really know about
Speaker 5: syphilis at that time, and what was the at least
Speaker 5: immediate remedy for the headaches and the syphilists that he
Speaker 5: knew he had contracted.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, he was taking small amounts of strictly in
Speaker 3: a morphine. Initially it was morphine. He was advised by
Speaker 3: one of his fellow students on what to take, and
Speaker 3: his friend had actually graduated in venereal diseases and he
Speaker 3: advised him that taking pinches of morphine would help his
Speaker 3: headaches that he was having at the time. Initially those
Speaker 3: were the only he had a few tremors, but those
Speaker 3: were the only really serious side effects that he had
Speaker 3: with the headaches. But actually, over the years he's turned
Speaker 3: into debilitating migraines where he was getting such pain behind
Speaker 3: his eyes and it was affecting his vision. He was
Speaker 3: born with a short sightedness anyway, but his eye deteriorated
Speaker 3: more quickly because of the syclist. And you know, basically
Speaker 3: he had to keep increasing his dosage and he was
Speaker 3: mixing different kinds of opiates to control his nightmares and
Speaker 3: his migraines and his pains, his aching bones and you
Speaker 3: know his general condition.
Speaker 5: Now you introduce a character that everything was seemed to
Speaker 5: be going well, and he graduated in March eighteen seventy
Speaker 5: six doctor of Medicine and Master of Surgery, and he
Speaker 5: had convinced his father, you right, that to cover his
Speaker 5: cast returned to Britain and he planned to in rule
Speaker 5: a postgraduate course at Saint Thomas's Hospital and South in
Speaker 5: South London. And everything was born according to plan until
Speaker 5: he met a miss Flora Brooks. So tell us about
Speaker 5: how he meets Flora Brooks and her influence and her
Speaker 5: changing of his life quite dramatically.
Speaker 3: Okay, So Flora was actually visiting. She was having a
Speaker 3: little a little break with some family members and she's
Speaker 3: visiting Montreal. They just really, over a matter of a
Speaker 3: few weeks they started going out dating and she was
Speaker 3: a very attractive young lady and Cream was happy to
Speaker 3: take her out and have her on his arm. But
Speaker 3: unfortunately she became pregnant. And what he decided was that
Speaker 3: he'd already he'd already you know, booked his place on
Speaker 3: the course and he was definitely going to go to England.
Speaker 3: So he decided that the best route to take would
Speaker 3: be as he was a skilled surgeon himself, was to
Speaker 3: perform an abortion on her. He thought it'd be quite
Speaker 3: a simple operation, that he could rid himself as the
Speaker 3: child and any incumberment and not you know his attachment
Speaker 3: to Flora. Unfortunately, he performed it at the hotel. He
Speaker 3: sent her back home on the train the next day,
Speaker 3: but she was heavily bleeding and her father out to
Speaker 3: call in a local doctor who found out what had happened,
Speaker 3: and in the event, Flora's father marched down to the
Speaker 3: hotel where Creedan's in the bar with a shotgun and
Speaker 3: his sons with him and forced him back to their
Speaker 3: hometown and he ended up marrying Floras clever as he was,
Speaker 3: though the next morning after the wedding he escaped out
Speaker 3: of the window while everybody else was still sleeping, and
Speaker 3: he took his passage back to England on the twelfth
Speaker 3: of September. So he was actually only married for one
Speaker 3: one day with his bride before he actually escaped.
Speaker 5: Now, you talk about his diabolical character in his you
Speaker 5: throughout this book, but to show to demonstrate after a
Speaker 5: year he gets notice of something happening to his one
Speaker 5: day marriage his wife. What does he do as a
Speaker 5: result of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she died of consumption basically, it's kind of a
Speaker 3: condition that they used to call for tuberculosis. And she
Speaker 3: was very very unhappy and it took her a year.
Speaker 3: She actually wasted away and she died. He decided that
Speaker 3: he would like to have some money of her, that's
Speaker 3: her widow, and he sent a letter to the asking
Speaker 3: for a thousand dollars, which they weren't very impressed with.
Speaker 3: But then they realized that they weren't going to get
Speaker 3: rid of him very easily and saw the Brooks. His
Speaker 3: father actually owned a hotel, so there were a very
Speaker 3: rich family. So Creams thought that he could extort some
Speaker 3: money out of them. In the end, he did settle
Speaker 3: for just two hundred dollars.
Speaker 5: Yeah, incredible, now, you right, he still had these headaches
Speaker 5: and these plagued by these headaches, but he also had
Speaker 5: this expert knowledge about chloroform from his training at McGill.
Speaker 5: And he goes on. Now he also travels to Edinburgh, Scotland.
Speaker 5: But tell us or in Glasgow as well, tell us
Speaker 5: what he is, what his impressions are of Scotland, but
Speaker 5: what he really desires to do and get back to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's been living the high life at Saint Thomas.
Speaker 3: But he'd made some good friends down there. I mean,
Speaker 3: London was quite a vibrant city, probably the same as
Speaker 3: New York was at the time, and he was having
Speaker 3: a good old time down there. But he needed to
Speaker 3: He couldn't get into the college in London to take
Speaker 3: his final examination, so he ended to put the Royal
Speaker 3: Colleges and Physicians and Surgeons in Edinburgh, and he found
Speaker 3: it quite a dreary city. I mean, I suppose it's
Speaker 3: very cold and very wet up north in Scotland. And
Speaker 3: despite him being born in Glasgow, he didn't actually remember
Speaker 3: anything of Scotland because remember he left when he was
Speaker 3: only six years old. But he did stay there. He
Speaker 3: actually he knuckled down and he finished his studies and
Speaker 3: he took got his master's degree at Edinburgh, and from
Speaker 3: there he went back down to Saint Thomas's and said
Speaker 3: goodbye to his friends. But he was in need of
Speaker 3: funds after that, so it was back to Canada with
Speaker 3: him in eighteen seventy nine.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about what he's qualified to do, we
Speaker 5: had the took it upon himself to do the abortion
Speaker 5: of his pregnant girlfriend. But what is he qualified as
Speaker 5: and what does he work as? Really?
Speaker 3: Okay, he's qualified as a general surgeon and physician, so
Speaker 3: say the nowadates a general practitioner. And he worked as
Speaker 3: an obstetric clerk when he was in the Saint Thomas's Hospital.
Speaker 3: Mainly really, while he was studying, it was to get
Speaker 3: some extra money and to fund his lifestyle. But when
Speaker 3: he returned to Canada, he decided that's a good thing
Speaker 3: to do would be to open a clinic in dunder
Speaker 3: Street in Ontario. It was close enough to the family
Speaker 3: to still be able to get money off his father
Speaker 3: if he needed to, if he needed to lean on
Speaker 3: him a little bit, but he was still in the
Speaker 3: handiness on his own. So he opened this women's twinic
Speaker 3: basically as an abortionist.
Speaker 5: Now you also talk about this time and you had
Speaker 5: mentioned the horseshoe tie pin, and you say in the
Speaker 5: book that that Cream really liked this tie pin, this
Speaker 5: piece of jewelry very much, and in fact had a
Speaker 5: photo of this when mugging for the photo with this jewelry.
Speaker 5: But at that time you talk about and we'll talk
Speaker 5: about its importance later, but you had mentioned it the
Speaker 5: horseshoe tie pin is given to a friend. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about the horseshoe tie pin and this
Speaker 5: exchange apparently supposedly.
Speaker 3: Okay, the photograph of Dr Cream with the source sheet
Speaker 3: type and actually fits on my desk while I'm working,
Speaker 3: and I actually have that here. He was very attached
Speaker 3: to it and he used to wear it in his
Speaker 3: early days in London, but it's not been found amongst
Speaker 3: his artifacts that were fun. We've got his spectacles which
Speaker 3: are at the Science Museum, and letters and his clothing
Speaker 3: was actually brought by Madame Tussorts, his suits and things,
Speaker 3: but the horshoe typing didn't turn up. And I do
Speaker 3: actually believe that the gentleman that I'm investigating now, who
Speaker 3: we would just call Are, actually had that horshoe typing,
Speaker 3: that it was gifted to him and the nature.
Speaker 5: Go ahead.
Speaker 3: Sorry sorry, I was just going to say the nature
Speaker 3: of the research that I'm doing now, I can't actually
Speaker 3: identify who Are is at the moment.
Speaker 5: You can't identify who this is, and you do just refer.
Speaker 3: To this, but I can't tell you. I'm afraid because
Speaker 3: there will be a second book on that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, now you talk about this just for the record.
Speaker 3: In this.
Speaker 5: Book, you write this book from a certain perspective, and
Speaker 5: that's from an autobiograph. I guess a fictional stance in
Speaker 5: terms of ido biographical, but you do take the material again,
Speaker 5: this is non fiction. You do talk about why you
Speaker 5: adopted that writing perspective, which is unusual. So tell us
Speaker 5: why he did do that.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's it's quite unconventional. You see. I wanted to
Speaker 3: write it as a non fiction book because I had
Speaker 3: all the prison files and I had all the information
Speaker 3: to put in there, and all the years of research.
Speaker 3: But as I opened the files and I started reading,
Speaker 3: there are notes in there from Dr Crane when he
Speaker 3: was talking to his attorney during different trials that he
Speaker 3: was involved in. So I'm actually reading some of the
Speaker 3: notes in his hand, in his own words, and I
Speaker 3: really wanted to kind of include that so that people
Speaker 3: could understand what kind of a character he was. And
Speaker 3: you know, you've got some there's some messages in there
Speaker 3: that he really believes that he's not guilty, especially as
Speaker 3: to the first trial that he was involved in. He
Speaker 3: honestly believes that he's not guilty, and he's writing these
Speaker 3: messages across his attorney. So I actually wanted to use
Speaker 3: some of those words to express what he was doing
Speaker 3: and what he was saying and what he was feeling
Speaker 3: at the time. And it's quite an unconventional way to
Speaker 3: do it, but I really felt that an autobiographical book
Speaker 3: would appeal to people that interested not just in Jack
Speaker 3: the Ripper, but history in general. And also to make
Speaker 3: it sort of a more interesting story, but from Dr
Speaker 3: Cream's standpoint rather than from the victim's standpoint or just
Speaker 3: a historical standpoint. So that's kind of a decision to
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 5: You write in this book about Catherine Hutchison Gardner again
Speaker 5: just to illustrate or demonstrate the character of Thomas Neil Cream.
Speaker 5: Apparently she was nineteen years old and she came to
Speaker 5: him for this abortion, but you didn't have any money.
Speaker 5: Tell us what he does do and how again from
Speaker 5: your notes you've garnered how he really feels about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, part of doctor Cream's moods things are related to
Speaker 3: his headaches and things. And so when Catherine Gardner comes
Speaker 3: to the clinic and she's very upset, she's become pregnant,
Speaker 3: she's very young, she doesn't know what to do, she
Speaker 3: can't tell a family, and you know, essentially Quam's there
Speaker 3: winning his business and that's the way that he looks
Speaker 3: at it. He's there to make money and he's there
Speaker 3: to you know, perform the operation, take the money, and
Speaker 3: that be an end to the client. So's she comes
Speaker 3: along and she's she's getting very upset, telling her sob
Speaker 3: story and you know, explaining everything. He tells her how
Speaker 3: much the abortion is actually going to cost her, and
Speaker 3: she breaks down in tears because she can't actually afford it.
Speaker 3: She's a housemaid and she doesn't have the kind of
Speaker 3: money that's needed to actually have the abortion at the clinic.
Speaker 3: I think in a moment of almost anger, Doctor Queen
Speaker 3: Years is a handkerchief covered in chloroform to initially calm
Speaker 3: her down, but she struggles and so he ends up
Speaker 3: putting the handkerchiefs over her face and suffocating and leads
Speaker 3: her outside at the back of the outhouse, which is
Speaker 3: connected to a lot of the buildings in that street,
Speaker 3: so he thinks it wouldn't particularly be associated to him,
Speaker 3: and it caused a lot of bad press and eventually
Speaker 3: he had to move away from there because it was
Speaker 3: all the newspapers and he was questioned by the police
Speaker 3: and eventually it was Claster a murder by persons unknown
Speaker 3: and he was cleared, but it still tarnished his name
Speaker 3: quite badly.
Speaker 5: So as a result, he decides to go across the border.
Speaker 5: So where does he go to in eighteen seventy nine,
Speaker 5: where does he set up another business?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he goes to West Madison Street in Chicago, and
Speaker 3: he's got a my fin lady called Missus Gregley who
Speaker 3: helps him sort out his rooms. He's got his own
Speaker 3: personal lodging and then he's got his clinic next door
Speaker 3: and he's making quite a good business. It's you know,
Speaker 3: there's plenty of clientele in the area, and he's running
Speaker 3: his abortion clinics as well. So yeah, that's right in
Speaker 3: the huburb of Chicago there, so in a busy area.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so he has a Ladies of the Night or
Speaker 5: a Red Red Lake district, real handy, so he knows
Speaker 5: is where his business comes from. And he even employs
Speaker 5: an assistant, Haddie Mac. So again everything seems to be
Speaker 5: going well for him. But yeah, one night Haddie Mac
Speaker 5: comes to him and it looks like Hattie Mac isn't
Speaker 5: been impatient. Tell us what Hattie Mac does and how
Speaker 5: this proceeds, and he finally winds up in the crosshairs
Speaker 5: the police with this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so Dr Cream is called out. Now when
Speaker 3: he's performing the abortions, he doesn't actually do them on
Speaker 3: his own premises. He will use a room for an
Speaker 3: hour at a time, and Happy Matt was a lady
Speaker 3: that would help him. She would she would get the
Speaker 3: patients ready before the operation. So Happy Mac calls him
Speaker 3: that one night, she sends a messenger to go and
Speaker 3: fetch doctor Queen and it's got a cold and blustery night,
Speaker 3: and he takes a little bit longer than usual together
Speaker 3: there and it seems that I mean, Happy Mac in
Speaker 3: her own way, has also worked as a midwife and
Speaker 3: an abortionist, a backstreet abortionist, so she's quite experienced. And
Speaker 3: she decides that, you know, he's taking a long time.
Speaker 3: She doesn't know whether he's coming or not, and she
Speaker 3: decided to start with the abortion herself. Unfortunately, the young girl,
Speaker 3: her name's Ellen Stack, that he got there and she
Speaker 3: was you know, pale and clammy and bleeding heavily, and
Speaker 3: unfortunately she died. So at the time he had been
Speaker 3: they Doctor Quin had prescribed some strychnine tablets to you know,
Speaker 3: to help her clear the baby and uh to bring
Speaker 3: her back to some normal state. And she actually died.
Speaker 3: And they blamed the chemist for the prescription that was
Speaker 3: put up that there was actually too much stryckning in it. Luckily,
Speaker 3: both of them got off the lack of evidence. I
Speaker 3: say luckily, but luckily for Dr Crane there was a
Speaker 3: lack of evidence and himself and Happy Mack actually were
Speaker 3: able to get off. There was not enough evidence to
Speaker 3: them incarcerating them now.
Speaker 5: As a result, though, you say that doctor Cream kind
Speaker 5: of changes directions in his medical career, and again in
Speaker 5: line with some of the scams, insurance scams, setting things
Speaker 5: on fire. Any it seems anything to make a profit,
Speaker 5: doesn't have any conscience. What does he do next, what
Speaker 5: does he decide to sell?
Speaker 3: Well, he decides to go on a different tack and
Speaker 3: he starts mixing up different prescriptions for migraines, skin conditions, pimples, exma,
Speaker 3: all kinds of kills. But his main remedy that he
Speaker 3: came up with was an epileptic cure. And he came
Speaker 3: together without by mixing strict name and Laudman together and
Speaker 3: luckily for him, some of the patients quite believed in
Speaker 3: that then they believed that it worked, and he managed
Speaker 3: to do quite a good business with that, and he
Speaker 3: had patients traveling from different parts outside of Chicago to
Speaker 3: actually come into the city to get the prescriptions and
Speaker 3: have consultations with doctor Quinn for their epilepsy. So it's
Speaker 3: a very very lucrative business for him.
Speaker 5: You talk about also the morning After pill, which he
Speaker 5: laces with his favorite drug, Strych nine, and he says
Speaker 5: that it to just to correct those within do some miscarriage.
Speaker 5: But again, somebody at clinic dies. So as a result,
Speaker 5: how does he respond and with with regards to Frank
Speaker 5: pie at the chemist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he just starts blaming the chemist basically, and you know,
Speaker 3: saying that well, it wasn't me, it must have been him,
Speaker 3: means to put too much into the prescription. Now, an
Speaker 3: interesting point on that actually is there is a Chicago
Speaker 3: crime writer named Adam Seltzer, and he uncovered a non
Speaker 3: solved murder of a girl called Alice Montgomery, which I
Speaker 3: wasn't aware of at the time when I wrote the book.
Speaker 3: And she'd actually gone into a hotel bathroom and taken
Speaker 3: the after Morning pills with the stry name in them,
Speaker 3: and she died of strict name poisoning in the hotel
Speaker 3: just really thirty minutes after taking the tablets. So we
Speaker 3: have actually been wondering there could that have been Dr
Speaker 3: Queen because it was the same memo and the place,
Speaker 3: the hotel where she died was very very close to
Speaker 3: his officers. It was only three blocks away, so we
Speaker 3: are actually wondering if there might even be another murder
Speaker 3: there as well.
Speaker 5: Right, So he continues with these despite him narrowly missing
Speaker 5: incarceration and his freedom being taken away completely, he still
Speaker 5: continues in the same fashion of creating rolls and having
Speaker 5: good success with people that somehow or other find relief
Speaker 5: with that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he thinks he's invincible. So he carries on and
Speaker 3: he believes that he's found an epolepsy pill. So he
Speaker 3: carries on with his business and that you know, there's
Speaker 3: a fair few people by word of mouth that's as
Speaker 3: sending for the Aftermorning pill as well, so he's a
Speaker 3: lot of different ways he's doing a good business.
Speaker 5: Yeah, now we mentioned this, We talked about this, and
Speaker 5: I know you can't mention the name, but tell us
Speaker 5: about the correspondence with this person named Are in London.
Speaker 5: Can you tell us the nature of the correspondence or
Speaker 5: can you tell us anything about that correspondence or the
Speaker 5: frequency of it.
Speaker 3: No, it's a person that he met when he was
Speaker 3: working at Saint Thomasy's Hospital, somebody who he would go
Speaker 3: out with and soalized with in Lambert and in the
Speaker 3: West End. Somebody who had a more means and was
Speaker 3: also in the medical professions. Correspondence between them. They didn't
Speaker 3: correspond when Crane was in back in Chicago. They very
Speaker 3: they had some friends, mutual friends, and they'd heard from
Speaker 3: each other in that way, but there wasn't any regular
Speaker 3: letters going backwards and formance I don't have any of those.
Speaker 5: Right now in this As you mentioned the two hundred
Speaker 5: pages in this in the file, it gave you a
Speaker 5: fantastic idea of what he was really like, and of
Speaker 5: course that's demonstrating this book. You say that he had
Speaker 5: an opinion about every city in America, Canada and Europe
Speaker 5: in regards to these people that he thought were undesirables.
Speaker 5: Who was he talking about and how did he speak
Speaker 5: about these ladies of the night.
Speaker 3: Yeah, really, he's he's got a desire to cleanse the street.
Speaker 3: Now a lot of a lot of it comes from
Speaker 3: his contraction of syphilis early on, obviously from a prostitute
Speaker 3: when he was in Canada, and he's experienced this life
Speaker 3: in the East and when he went to live in
Speaker 3: he had lodgings in Lambeth when he was working at
Speaker 3: Saint Thomasin's Hospital, and he's kind of got a lot
Speaker 3: of street walkers down there as well, probably partaking of
Speaker 3: their wares. And he's got quite a, you know, a
Speaker 3: very flambuoyant lifestyle in the way that he likes to
Speaker 3: mix with people who have money. He likes to wear
Speaker 3: the best of clothes and finery, and he's got quite
Speaker 3: a contempt for anybody who's of a low class, you know,
Speaker 3: and on the streets. So he has he's got a
Speaker 3: real he's got a real hatred for prostitutes very much.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about this, right, you talk about the
Speaker 5: epilepsy remedy really doing well for him, and one at
Speaker 5: one point he meets the wife of an epileptic man,
Speaker 5: Daniel Start, and he was not able to travel to Chicago,
Speaker 5: but he did believe that this was the cure and
Speaker 5: so tell us about this relationship that evolved with Julia
Speaker 5: Stott his wife tell us about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Daniel Stott was a railroad agent who was sixty
Speaker 3: years old and he had a much younger wife, Julia
Speaker 3: was twenty thirty years old, and Julia would frequently travel
Speaker 3: to Chicago by train to pick up the epilepsicull for
Speaker 3: a husband who he believed it was working, and as
Speaker 3: the seizures became worse, he needed his prescription more often,
Speaker 3: and so Julia would travel in more often. She would
Speaker 3: go to the dentist, she would pick up bird seed
Speaker 3: and go and get dresses made. And her husband would
Speaker 3: fund this, and so she would travel from Garden Prairie
Speaker 3: from their home into Chicago, and eventually she became close
Speaker 3: pretty much within a few months, became close to doctor
Speaker 3: Cream and they began an affair. In June of eighteen
Speaker 3: eighty one. It was suggested by Julia that her husband
Speaker 3: need an increased dosage, which Quam did. He increased the
Speaker 3: amount of strictning in the capsules for the epilepsy cure,
Speaker 3: and Daniel Stott died as a result of that. So,
Speaker 3: you know, as we can seek, Cream had no desire
Speaker 3: to run away with Julia start. I don't know whether
Speaker 3: she had different designs, which I pretty much think she did.
Speaker 3: But for Cream's part of it, it was actually Julia
Speaker 3: Stott that administered the strict name and administered that ghost.
Speaker 3: It wasn't Cream. She was the one who took the tablets,
Speaker 3: went home and administered into her husband.
Speaker 5: You right, though, not to to basically explain this to
Speaker 5: the audience that what happened is that they had this relationship.
Speaker 5: But at some point it seemed almost surprising to Cream
Speaker 5: that she wanted to increase the dosage in kill him
Speaker 5: basically and again he assessed or thought that she did
Speaker 5: have some romantic ideas about the two and he didn't.
Speaker 5: But he also thought he could be in on this scam,
Speaker 5: just another scam, but he wanted her to administer the
Speaker 5: drug so that he wouldn't be responsible. But then in
Speaker 5: a couple of days he didn't hear from her.
Speaker 3: He was waiting to hear from her because he was
Speaker 3: interested in getting some of the insurance money for his
Speaker 3: part that he played in it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but at the same time, what does he do
Speaker 5: A couple of days later, in terms of the Boone
Speaker 5: County coroner to sort of offset anything that she may do.
Speaker 5: He was he was an untrusting person, even at this
Speaker 5: time before we talk about really.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, Doctor Cream wrote to the Criner and
Speaker 3: basically alerted him that it was foul play. Now he's
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, just put himself there and say, well,
Speaker 3: you know, yes I did the prescription, but I didn't administrip,
Speaker 3: and you know, so that he could put the blame
Speaker 3: on Julia stop. I think he was hoping that, you know,
Speaker 3: she would she would get sent to jail for that,
Speaker 3: basically for poisoning our husband. But it backfired on him unfortunately.
Speaker 5: Now with this, this is he had a history of
Speaker 5: weaseling out of and worming out of jams that other
Speaker 5: people would have ended up in jail forever with this,
Speaker 5: despite his counterance to him trying to do something to
Speaker 5: anticipate what her next move will be. What happens with
Speaker 5: doctor Kreem's ideas about putting the blame on her and
Speaker 5: how does he respond? What does the coroner do? Tell
Speaker 5: us about this fascinating exchange?
Speaker 3: Okay, well, basically, because Dr Crane had put his name
Speaker 3: on them, they were both arrested and they were both
Speaker 3: put up for trial, and the trial went on for
Speaker 3: the fir few days, and eventually Julius Dotton State's evidenced
Speaker 3: and made out that it was all of Queen's idea
Speaker 3: that he was the one. That she knew nothing about
Speaker 3: the increase in the strict name dosage. She thought it
Speaker 3: was the same prescription as usual. Yeah, basically she got
Speaker 3: a way scot free and Queen Spine guilty and sentenced
Speaker 3: for the term of his natural life to go to
Speaker 3: Juliet State Penitentiary.
Speaker 4: Okay, Round two. Name something that's not boring, laundry, a
Speaker 4: book club, computer solitaire.
Speaker 6: Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking for chumba casino.
Speaker 5: Jump.
Speaker 4: That's right, Chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino
Speaker 4: style games joined today and play for free for your
Speaker 4: chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chump chumbacasino dot com.
Speaker 4: Loty Plusters the coniditions of Busy website retails with lucky landslides.
Speaker 3: You can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 1: Nearly beloved, we are gathered here today.
Speaker 6: Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Speaker 1: Sorry?
Speaker 2: Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo.
Speaker 1: We lost track of time.
Speaker 4: No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up
Speaker 4: quicker than a gets registered in luck case, I pronounce
Speaker 4: you lucky Hi.
Speaker 1: For Lucky Land Slots dot com.
Speaker 4: Daily bonuses are waiting.
Speaker 3: No purchase necessary board.
Speaker 4: We're prohibited by law eight team plus terms and conditions applying.
Speaker 6: See website for details.
Speaker 5: Now we're going to talk about this time in Jolie
Speaker 5: at prison and how secure Cream is in this and
Speaker 5: how content or not content, but how resigned he is
Speaker 5: that he's going to spend the rest of his life
Speaker 5: in Joli at prison. So tell us about And also
Speaker 5: we didn't mention was about five weeks into this trial
Speaker 5: they put a man in his cell. He looks like
Speaker 5: a scrappy kind of guy. What happens again? And this
Speaker 5: just reinforces his mistrust of almost anyone. Tell us what
Speaker 5: happens five weeks into that trial with the cellmate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Quam's having nightmares and basically he's screening at night.
Speaker 3: He's got trenders, he's still got his migraines, and he's
Speaker 3: being a very disruptive prisoner to be honest, and they
Speaker 3: put a guy into the cell to basically wheedle out
Speaker 3: of him what he's done, and Cream comes up with
Speaker 3: almost a confession to his cellmate to say, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: I did this and I did that, and puts the
Speaker 3: whole thing out in front of him and this guy
Speaker 3: who's in there just for a minor crime. He then
Speaker 3: is taken to the sheriff and he tells them what
Speaker 3: Queen has told them, and it really goes against him.
Speaker 5: When he comes up, he called, now this trial, how
Speaker 5: has it covered? How much media attention is there at
Speaker 5: that time for this? How big a case is this?
Speaker 6: And what is is just the.
Speaker 5: I guess the demeanor of Neil Cream throughout this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the beginning, he's unfazed. He really believes that
Speaker 3: he's going to get off scot free. There was a
Speaker 3: lot of media attention. He was in Boone County jail
Speaker 3: for some time when the trials was going on, before
Speaker 3: he actually went to Jailiot. But he believes that he's
Speaker 3: going to get away. He's got a very good attorney
Speaker 3: from the top company. He's got money to pay for that,
Speaker 3: and his father's money from my tie out. But you know,
Speaker 3: they believe. His family believes that he's dinnocent, and he
Speaker 3: believes that he will that he will get away with it,
Speaker 3: so he's kind of quite unstaged by it. And there's
Speaker 3: actually letters in the prison files where he's making notes
Speaker 3: and he's telling his attorney the questions to ask for
Speaker 3: the prosecution team to put to them, and questions to
Speaker 3: put to Julia's Speltz as well with her actions following
Speaker 3: her husband's death and the actions of the neighbors and
Speaker 3: people around them. And he's actually written notes in there
Speaker 3: directing his attorney. He actually believes that, you know, he's
Speaker 3: not going to get that sent down. He really believes
Speaker 3: he's going to get Scott free of this one.
Speaker 5: Right, We're going to use this as an opportunity to
Speaker 5: talk for a moment, to talk about our sponsor of
Speaker 5: this program tonight. Blue Apron is the number one fresh
Speaker 5: ingredient and recipe delivery service in the country. Blue Apron's
Speaker 5: mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone.
Speaker 5: Blue Aprons achieves this by supporting a more sustainable food system,
Speaker 5: setting the highest standards for ingredients, and building a community
Speaker 5: of home chefs. Blue Apron has established partnerships with over
Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty local farms, fisheries, and ranchers. Across
Speaker 5: the United States and as a result, seafood is sourced sustainably. Beef, chicken,
Speaker 5: and pork come from responsibly raised animals, and produce is
Speaker 5: sourced from farms that practice regenerative farming. Blue Apron can
Speaker 5: be delivered to ninety nine percent of the continental US.
Speaker 5: They give you every week all the ingredients in the
Speaker 5: right measured amounts with fantastic ormet recipes to make your
Speaker 5: own delicious home cooked meals. Now it's affordable for less
Speaker 5: than ten dollars per person per meal. Blue Apron delivers
Speaker 5: seasonal recipes along with pre portioned ingredients to make your
Speaker 5: own home cooked meals now the variety You choose from
Speaker 5: a variety of new recipes each week, or you can
Speaker 5: let Blue Aprons culinary teams surprise you. Recipes are not
Speaker 5: repeated within a year, so you'll never get bored. Seriously
Speaker 5: customize your recipes each week based on your preferences, and
Speaker 5: Blue Apron has several delivery options so you can choose
Speaker 5: what fits your needs. But there's no weekly commitment, so
Speaker 5: you only get deliveries when you want them. Each meal
Speaker 5: again comes with a step by step and believe me,
Speaker 5: easy to follow recipe card with pre portioned ingredients, and
Speaker 5: it can be prepared in forty minutes or less. And
Speaker 5: this stuff is fresh. They have a freshness guarantee that
Speaker 5: promises that every ingredient your delivery arrives ready to cook
Speaker 5: fresh or they'll make it right now. Check out this
Speaker 5: week's menu and get your first three meals free with
Speaker 5: free shipping by going to blue apron dot com slash
Speaker 5: murder Now. Last week I told you I tried to
Speaker 5: spicy shrimp coconut curry with cabbage and rice, and I said, wow,
Speaker 5: I did it myself gourmet cooking. This week, I did
Speaker 5: the vegetable chili they sent me and baked sweet potatoes
Speaker 5: with crispy tortilla strip. I never would have thought of
Speaker 5: putting this stuff together, the vegetable chili. You know, you
Speaker 5: have to be good if you can make a good
Speaker 5: tasting chili, just vegetarian. So it was fantastic and it
Speaker 5: was easy to make, and I did it. It was great.
Speaker 5: Now you'll love how good it feels and taste to
Speaker 5: create an incredible home cooked meals with Blue Apron. So
Speaker 5: don't wait, that's blue Apron dot com slash murder Blue
Speaker 5: Apron a better way to cook. When we spoke last Aja,
Speaker 5: we talked about finally Thomas Neil Cream sitting in prison,
Speaker 5: and as we talked about and alluded to in the beginning,
Speaker 5: this story has ties. And Neil Cream has been a
Speaker 5: suspect in the Jack the Ripper murder. So don't have
Speaker 5: to go through the entire Jack to Ripper murder situation,
Speaker 5: but tell us about his imprisonment and then tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about how on Earth while he's in prison,
Speaker 5: years later people can regard him as a suspect in
Speaker 5: those Whitechapel murders.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the interesting thing about finding the prison files,
Speaker 3: first of all, was contrary to what was previously believed
Speaker 3: about Cream. There was some other books it's been written
Speaker 3: that he worked in the hospital or in the dispensary
Speaker 3: in the prison. Actually what was found that Cream was
Speaker 3: sent to do general labor in the yard, first of all,
Speaker 3: and then after a couple of years he was transferred
Speaker 3: to the granite department. We actually have those transfer papers
Speaker 3: where he was transferred there to do very hard work
Speaker 3: in the granite department. So it kind of it changed
Speaker 3: him completely. He loft his hair, his eyesight, deteriorated. He
Speaker 3: became physically stronger, but a weaker man in himself, you know,
Speaker 3: absolutely exhausted every day. That the time in the prison
Speaker 3: was quite interesting as well, because during his time there
Speaker 3: there were hundreds of people petitioning to get him out,
Speaker 3: that they believed that Julia Stott had done the murder
Speaker 3: and that Cream was innocent. He had a lot of
Speaker 3: people on his side. There's actually a sworn statement by
Speaker 3: a gentleman called DeWitt Jay Edgecomb and he was the
Speaker 3: Stops neighbor, and he believed that Julia Stott had behaved
Speaker 3: very suspiciously after her husband's death and she couldn't be found.
Speaker 3: Cream actually sent his attorney and a private investigator to
Speaker 3: go and find Julia Stott and then she disappeared. And
Speaker 3: on the retirement of Julia Stott's attorney, when he was
Speaker 3: spoken to, he said that he believed that his own
Speaker 3: client was guilty and that Cream was serving a life
Speaker 3: sentence for someone else. So Cream had this to contend with.
Speaker 3: He's very frustrated. He's getting lots of highs where he
Speaker 3: believes that the petitions were working. He's going to get out,
Speaker 3: and then he's got a lot of Lows as well,
Speaker 3: so he's very up and down in there. During that time.
Speaker 3: His father also died, leaving him in inheritance as well,
Speaker 3: so he's, you know, he's his life is really on
Speaker 3: a roller coaster while he's in there now pretending to
Speaker 3: the Jack the Ripper murders. Jack the Ripper Murders were
Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty eight, and of course Cream was incarcerated
Speaker 3: in November eighteen eighty one until eighteen ninety one. He
Speaker 3: did ten years in there. So one of the reasons
Speaker 3: that he was noted as a respect, as I said,
Speaker 3: was because of the horseshoe typin first of all, but
Speaker 3: that in itself is just one witness statement. Now, there
Speaker 3: were rumors later on from Billington, who was the hangman
Speaker 3: who hung Queen at Newgate, that said that when Cream
Speaker 3: was actually hung that he shouted I'm Jack from the scaffold,
Speaker 3: which was quite interesting because it only came out about
Speaker 3: ten years after Cream had already been hung. There isn't
Speaker 3: any evidence and there's nothing from any of the families
Speaker 3: to back that took at all, and there were a
Speaker 3: few newspaper reports, so there were quite a long time
Speaker 3: after Cream's death, so there was nothing else in that.
Speaker 3: Now there was a gentleman called Sir Edward Marshall Hall,
Speaker 3: and he thought that he recognized Cream from a bigamy charge,
Speaker 3: and that he thought that Cream had got a double
Speaker 3: and he was thinking that he'd defended Cream on this
Speaker 3: bigamy charge, and Cream's doppel ganga was actually in Joliet
Speaker 3: serving the prison sentence in his place. I haven't been
Speaker 3: able to find anything to back that up either. Woods.
Speaker 3: We actually have the documents covered every single year that
Speaker 3: Cream was incarcerated up until the actual commutation of the sentence,
Speaker 3: when he's least so I think we definitely know where
Speaker 3: he was during that time.
Speaker 5: Now, the idea that he could use a doppelganger, that
Speaker 5: he could bribeguards, that he could be in another place
Speaker 5: and get to London and kill those you have explored
Speaker 5: all those possibilities and ruled that out completely.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The documents show where he was and he wasn't in London.
Speaker 5: Now you say that the stryct nine, pardon me, the
Speaker 5: strict nine. The syphilis continued, obviously, And how was he
Speaker 5: treated in the prison or how was his ailment treated
Speaker 5: in prison? I know that you write in the book
Speaker 5: that during the trial, and if I'm wrong about this,
Speaker 5: that even the prosecution didn't know he was being treated
Speaker 5: with a morphine or at least his lawyer was providing
Speaker 5: him supplements or supplement medication for his his.
Speaker 3: Lawyer was his lawyer was bringing some of that to him,
Speaker 3: but nobody was actually aware that he was suffering from that.
Speaker 3: He was quite a troublesome prisoner, actually, and he ended
Speaker 3: up being in this cell with very frequent changing occupants
Speaker 3: in the shell because in the cell, nobody wanted to
Speaker 3: share with him because of his nightmarees and he's screaming
Speaker 3: and the trouble that he was causing. And you imagine
Speaker 3: they've only got one candle to last for a whole month.
Speaker 3: So he's trying to write letters, he's trying to work
Speaker 3: on his case, he's trying to come up with different
Speaker 3: angles for his attorney to petition, and you know, basically
Speaker 3: he's not getting very much sleeper, and the syphilis is
Speaker 3: just getting worse and giving him night tremors and giving
Speaker 3: him even worse migraine. So when his when his attorney
Speaker 3: does come, he provides him with some relief and some medication,
Speaker 3: but as general will Cream is not being treated for
Speaker 3: anything in the assirmery in the prison.
Speaker 5: Now you say that he was released in nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 5: tell us about what condition he is in that time
Speaker 5: and what he does after exiting prison.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's released on the thirty first of July
Speaker 3: eighteen ninety one. You can imagine that when he's released
Speaker 3: from prison, he's given back the clothes that you know,
Speaker 3: he had when he entered the prison. So he's got
Speaker 3: his seat to morrow and everything is He's very shabby,
Speaker 3: you know, he's grown a beard, he looks very rough.
Speaker 3: He's studied to lose his hair. He's a shadow of
Speaker 3: the man that he was when he went in there.
Speaker 3: So the first thing he decided to do was go
Speaker 3: to his brother's house, his brother Daniel, and borrow some
Speaker 3: money from Daniel while he's inheritance money from his father's
Speaker 3: death was being sorted out, and get himself at a
Speaker 3: suit and he's a lot of Queen's personal belongings were there,
Speaker 3: which included his medical bag, which he needed because his
Speaker 3: plan was to get revenger on women at that point.
Speaker 3: So he decided in the September of eighteen ninety one,
Speaker 3: he was only the brothers for six or seven weeks
Speaker 3: and September eighteen ninety one he stayed to Liverpool and
Speaker 3: then headed for London checked into Anderton's hotel.
Speaker 5: Now, tell us what again, what his physical state is
Speaker 5: at that time and how bad is his physical physical
Speaker 5: state at that time before we talk about what he does.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, he's he's quite weak and he looks like
Speaker 3: a I mean, he's very very slim one. When he
Speaker 3: went into prison, he's a big man. He's very tall, strong, bills, muscular.
Speaker 3: He comes out and he's like an old man. His
Speaker 3: frame is a fraction of what it was when he
Speaker 3: went in there, and he looks quite unassuming. Actually, he
Speaker 3: doesn't look like the player that he was when he
Speaker 3: went in there. So really it's coming out of prison,
Speaker 3: you know, and finally he can start medicating himself again.
Speaker 3: He can start taking his strick name and his coattain
Speaker 3: and his lord and them, all the things that he
Speaker 3: used to take, golf pills, all the things that he
Speaker 3: previously took. You know, he comes back and he can
Speaker 3: start mixing his concoctions and ridding himself a headaches to
Speaker 3: some degree, but really, you know, getting his his physical
Speaker 3: and mental state back to normal.
Speaker 5: Now he's back in London where he loves the nightlife
Speaker 5: and the ladies of the night. But you say he
Speaker 5: is now after prison and betrayals in his mind and
Speaker 5: being jailed when he's innocent. At least he seems to
Speaker 5: almost convince himself of that. What is his mo o now?
Speaker 5: And who does he pick on?
Speaker 3: Now? Okay, we'll be the first thing really is, you know,
Speaker 3: his revenge on women. The one is from the point
Speaker 3: that the revenge on the prostitute that gave him syphilists
Speaker 3: so to rid the streets of the street walkers. But
Speaker 3: he's also held bent on revenge of you know, anybody
Speaker 3: who resembles or reminds him of Julia Scott, the woman
Speaker 3: who essentially put him into the prison in the first place.
Speaker 3: So he's finding his feet in Lambuth. He finds some
Speaker 3: lodgings in Lambeth Palace Road, so it's a good central
Speaker 3: location for him to be, you know, amongst the lower society.
Speaker 3: And he meets first of all, he meets a woman
Speaker 3: called Elizabeth Masters. But he's just he's just dipping his
Speaker 3: tone into the water, so to speak, and he's just
Speaker 3: kind of getting used to his area and what he's
Speaker 3: going to do. So he doesn't murder her straight away,
Speaker 3: He just he just arranges to meet her. And then
Speaker 3: he needs another girl called Matilda Drove, and at first
Speaker 3: he lets her go and he's just kind of, you know,
Speaker 3: testing out where do these girls live, where do they
Speaker 3: hang out? And he's going to some local public houses
Speaker 3: and he's really just getting to know the area again.
Speaker 3: He knows it from his youth when he was working
Speaker 3: at Saint thomasin and he's really just finding his food
Speaker 3: to getting into the area and you know, meeting up
Speaker 3: with several women and they become to trust him. They
Speaker 3: actually refer to him as Fred. He calls himself Fred,
Speaker 3: and they trust him. You know, he's a very unassuming
Speaker 3: doctor bird, and of them feel sorry for him as
Speaker 3: almost like a little old man to them. And he's
Speaker 3: got his gold roomed spectacles that he wears, and nobody
Speaker 3: is really afraid of him. They just kind of get
Speaker 3: used to seeing him in the area and being amongst them.
Speaker 5: Now, is there any incidents that he's involved with at
Speaker 5: that time? You say, it seems like everyone trust him,
Speaker 5: but is there any incidents at that time?
Speaker 3: There were a few incidents now. The first one is
Speaker 3: on the thirteenth of October eighteen ninety one, he booked
Speaker 3: into York Hotel in Waterloo Road. Obviously didn't want to
Speaker 3: take any of the girls back to his own lodgings.
Speaker 3: He needed a room for the night, so he booked
Speaker 3: into the York Hotel and he met a girl called
Speaker 3: Ellen Dunwith. So they went back to the room and
Speaker 3: they had some drinks and he offered us some tablets
Speaker 3: for her complexion that he said, you know, would have
Speaker 3: bride from her appearance, So he gave it a strictening,
Speaker 3: but he knew that he probably only had maybe thirty
Speaker 3: to forty five minutes before they would start to take effect.
Speaker 3: So they left the hotel and took her to a
Speaker 3: public house for a quick drink, and they went to
Speaker 3: stand outside the back with the drinks and he left
Speaker 3: her there and Ellen Johnworth actually died from strictly poisoning there.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was the very that was the first incident.
Speaker 3: The next incident was on the twentieth of October when
Speaker 3: he met up with Mattilda Closed, the girl that he'd
Speaker 3: already met. He previously met her and he knew that
Speaker 3: she trusted him and she recognized him and he poisoned her.
Speaker 3: So that first of all, we have the two before
Speaker 3: he actually decides to leave the city for a while
Speaker 3: and take a little trip down to Hartsford, Hertfordshire to
Speaker 3: let the media pool off because there was a lot
Speaker 3: in the press about the poisonings.
Speaker 5: Now this is where he goes to Birkhamsted and he
Speaker 5: meets a woman named Laura. Again. He thinks he's in
Speaker 5: love despite his behavior and his murderous past. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about this relationship and what it seems
Speaker 5: to mean to him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually wonder whether perhaps Laura was the only
Speaker 3: woman that he ever loved. There's been some recently uncovered
Speaker 3: photographs of her and shows that she was a very
Speaker 3: beautiful young woman and go Sir a bit younger than
Speaker 3: Dr Crane. She's living with her widowed mother, not rich
Speaker 3: by any means, but very attractive and Dr Crane takes
Speaker 3: the night together. He brings them up to London to
Speaker 3: the West End to see a show. He takes the
Speaker 3: night of the bite in the carriage in Hertfordshire. On Sundays,
Speaker 3: he at times church with them. He eats at their
Speaker 3: house he moves to a lodging house for a few
Speaker 3: weeks near to their home so that he can spend
Speaker 3: time with them, and he gains the trust not only
Speaker 3: from Laura but also from the mother as well. And
Speaker 3: not very long, probably a courtship of about two months,
Speaker 3: and they decided to become engaged. I do believe that
Speaker 3: he loved law She's probably the only woman that he loved.
Speaker 5: Now, how do we get to or how does he
Speaker 5: get to be accused of being the what they title
Speaker 5: him as the Lambeth murderer or the poisoner? So tell
Speaker 5: her again. It's when things seem to be going well,
Speaker 5: there just seems to be another incident that seems destined
Speaker 5: to derail Neil Cream. So what happens and this little
Speaker 5: party has gone on?
Speaker 3: He he actually had to return to Canada to finalize
Speaker 3: some funds, to secure some funds from his father's death.
Speaker 3: The family had sold the property they had his father's
Speaker 3: house to sell, so Queen had to go back and
Speaker 3: get his money from there. And while he was away,
Speaker 3: he decided that there hadn't been enough pressed about Ellen
Speaker 3: donwith that he would go to the Metropolitan Hotel and
Speaker 3: he ordered some circulars to be printed. Now, actually they
Speaker 3: would never never distributed. He asked them to be distributed
Speaker 3: at Easter and they never went into circulation. But that
Speaker 3: was basically the managers at the hotel are alerting the
Speaker 3: authorities that you know, this gentleman has ordered these flyers
Speaker 3: to be sent around saying that you know, this girl
Speaker 3: has been murdered. And then he starts to think about
Speaker 3: again starting money, so he starts writing blackmaile letters. Now,
Speaker 3: the one goes to the W. H. Smith family making
Speaker 3: out that they were involved, and there was another one.
Speaker 5: To a.
Speaker 3: Countess Russell and a doctor Broadband, and he's basically he's
Speaker 3: he's accusing these people of being involved in the deaths.
Speaker 3: And when he gets back to the UK, using his brain,
Speaker 3: he actually uses Laura and asks her to write to
Speaker 3: the blackmail letters on his behalf, and she does raise
Speaker 3: some concerns as well, you know, why are you accusing
Speaker 3: these people and what does it mean? And he's saying, well,
Speaker 3: if you write the letters, you know it's you're doing
Speaker 3: a good turn for a friend of mine that he
Speaker 3: knows that these people have been involved in the murders.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think we need to write the authority.
Speaker 3: So he actually gets Laura to write the letters for him,
Speaker 3: but he gets a little bit, a little bit carried away,
Speaker 3: and as his poisoning does, he meets another lady and
Speaker 3: her name is Lou Harvey. And now Lou Harvey is
Speaker 3: quite smart, and she actually tricked doctor Quam. They arranged
Speaker 3: to meet and he gave us some pills, but unbeknown
Speaker 3: to him, she threw them over the embankment of the
Speaker 3: river and Queen didn't expect to see her again. From there,
Speaker 3: he poisoned another two girls called Emma Shrivel and Alice Marsh.
Speaker 3: So now he's got what he thinks are five poisonings
Speaker 3: in Lambert, and he's pretty much thinking, well, I've got
Speaker 3: away with it, and he's carrying on with his daily life.
Speaker 3: But Quam's always one that he likes to talk about
Speaker 3: his escapades and what he's been doing. And he meets
Speaker 3: a former detective from New York who's called John Haynes,
Speaker 3: and they're walking enough to dinner one night, and Cream
Speaker 3: starts pointing out the doorways and the alleyways where these
Speaker 3: girls have lived and hung about, and the names, and
Speaker 3: he seems to know just a little bit too much
Speaker 3: about the murders. So John Haynes reports this to a
Speaker 3: friend of his, Inspector Turnbridge, that works for the Bow
Speaker 3: Street police station, and this is where Queen then gets
Speaker 3: arrested for the murders and obviously gained the Monica, the
Speaker 3: lamb of poisoners.
Speaker 5: Now again he is faced with, you know, one of
Speaker 5: the worst situations of his entire life. How does he
Speaker 5: conduct himself? What's his representation? How does he deal with
Speaker 5: the police in his interview? Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about how things move forward after he's arrested.
Speaker 3: Okay, he is quite full of brother so most of
Speaker 3: the time he believes that a reprieval will come, that
Speaker 3: you know, he'll be set free. And the heart the
Speaker 3: thing that changes, doctor Quaane, is when Laura Sabatini, his fiancee,
Speaker 3: is asked to come and take the stand and explain
Speaker 3: her part in the Black Male letters, and she can't
Speaker 3: look him in the eye. Now, I think this is
Speaker 3: part of my reason why I really believe that he
Speaker 3: did love her. He changed completely after that. He changed
Speaker 3: his will. He'd initially left money to Laura in his will,
Speaker 3: but you know when he passed away that she would
Speaker 3: have everything, and he was going to set her up
Speaker 3: in business as a dressmaker in the West End. So
Speaker 3: when this incident happens in court ware, she can't look
Speaker 3: at him. He goes back to his cell and he
Speaker 3: starts writing letters. You see that one of the one
Speaker 3: of the letters is actually printed in the book that
Speaker 3: he wrote to Laura, saying to her, they've made a mistake.
Speaker 3: It wasn't me. Come and visit me and you know,
Speaker 3: everything will be all right. But she doesn't. Laura doesn't
Speaker 3: turn up, so Cream sends for his sister Rachel to
Speaker 3: come over. And it's when Rachel comes over and Rachel
Speaker 3: kind of talks to him, and she knows. She knows
Speaker 3: that he's changed, she knows what he's done, and he's
Speaker 3: resigned to the fact that, yeah, this is going to happen.
Speaker 3: I'm going to hang for it. They caught me, and
Speaker 3: you know, it's the end for me.
Speaker 5: So it wasn't that long till his date with the
Speaker 5: Hangman November eighteen ninety two. Yeah, they asked him if
Speaker 5: he had anything to say, if he had any statements
Speaker 5: you could say after what he saw is the ultimate betrayal,
Speaker 5: Was there anything else? He said? Officially? Tell us about that.
Speaker 3: Anything that he said.
Speaker 5: Officially.
Speaker 3: Officially, now we've got the rumor from the hangman, but
Speaker 3: you know that he shouted, I'm Jack. To be quite honest,
Speaker 3: he he did. He probably did mutter something, but we
Speaker 3: don't believe that it was a confession of any any
Speaker 3: kind at all. The night before the chaplain came to him,
Speaker 3: he said his prayers and he said, you know, is
Speaker 3: there any final confession? There was absolutely nothing to tell them.
Speaker 3: He had nothing to say. He didn't have anything to
Speaker 3: say to God. He sat and he listened to the prayers,
Speaker 3: but he had no regrets. He believed that he'd been
Speaker 3: doing it, doing the favor to society, to rid the
Speaker 3: streets of these women. And yeah, no, he he passed
Speaker 3: pretty peacefully. He went to the scaffold, and it was
Speaker 3: quite instant.
Speaker 5: You said, he changed his will, and he in his will,
Speaker 5: he changed and gave everything to his sister Rachel.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that was when Laura didn't go to see
Speaker 3: him at the prison. He had the attorney change it
Speaker 3: back again. And yeah, his sister had his effects. It
Speaker 3: was quite interesting to note, actually, but we do know
Speaker 3: that he's thought by Madame two Swords for a hundred times,
Speaker 3: which was quite a lot of money in those days.
Speaker 3: And they had a wax books Sigret of Cream made
Speaker 3: and it was actually in Madame two Swords up until
Speaker 3: about the nineteen fifties. But his actually sad.
Speaker 5: Why do you think that of all the suspects, Neil
Speaker 5: Cream seems to have dominated some of these conversations about
Speaker 5: likely suspects.
Speaker 3: I think the fact that we know that he's capable
Speaker 3: of murder. It's a different am o completely, But he's
Speaker 3: got the he's got the physicians, the surgeon's skills for
Speaker 3: the japer murders. He knows London very well. He's Philip Bravado.
Speaker 3: He believes that he's above the police, that he can
Speaker 3: he can walk around and commit his crimes and he
Speaker 3: won't get caught for it. He's also got it's all that.
Speaker 3: Also the revenge. I think the fact that he picked
Speaker 3: his suspects. He's sorry his victims were all prostitutes as well.
Speaker 3: I mean that he has that in common the JAP
Speaker 3: and I think also you know the rumors from the
Speaker 3: hangman's claim, and we have the horseshoe typing thing. But
Speaker 3: I think he's been a very interesting suspect because there's
Speaker 3: been so many conflicting things written about him that there
Speaker 3: was no actual solid evidence to where he was. There
Speaker 3: was rumors he could have had a doppelganger, he could
Speaker 3: have paid Governor Peiffer to be let out of prison,
Speaker 3: he could have done this, he could have done that.
Speaker 3: You know, there hasn't actually been any actual evidence until
Speaker 3: I managed to get hold of the file and then
Speaker 3: we can actually see where he was and what he
Speaker 3: was doing and pinpointing, you know, from year to year
Speaker 3: where he actually was. He's a very complex character and
Speaker 3: he's a very interesting character. And I think syphilis in
Speaker 3: Victorian London also plays a big part. I mean, maybe
Speaker 3: the real Jack the Ripper also had syphilis and similar symptoms.
Speaker 5: Perhaps, well, it's likely, just it's a pretty good assumption
Speaker 5: and that may have happened. It's interesting when you talk
Speaker 5: about when you demonstrated this book Prisoner four three seventy four,
Speaker 5: that the mls, like you say, are completely different, and
Speaker 5: so Jack the Ripper seems far less sophisticated than than
Speaker 5: this person that you've painted a vivid portrayal of. And
Speaker 5: this person almost seems again somewhat like H. H. Holmes
Speaker 5: in terms of a surgeon and a scammer and a
Speaker 5: ladies man, and a again very very complex compared to
Speaker 5: the portrait we have obviously of Jack the Ripper being
Speaker 5: much different.
Speaker 3: I think Jack the Ripper, I think Jack Ripper was
Speaker 3: very clever and different mind though, because he managed to
Speaker 3: alead the place. You have a lot of place on
Speaker 3: the different beats around the murder areas, especially around the
Speaker 3: Mica Square murders, there are policemen walking on two beats.
Speaker 3: I think it was Harvey and Makins, if correct me
Speaker 3: if I'm wrong, but we have these two policemen walking
Speaker 3: down parallel straights where the murder is actually taking place
Speaker 3: in a very small area. So you know, in that way,
Speaker 3: Jack the Ripe is very clever. He knows who's going
Speaker 3: to be where, he knows that he can commit the crime,
Speaker 3: he knows how much time he's got. I think it's
Speaker 3: a quite complex actually, when you start looking at the case.
Speaker 5: Closely, how in your research, how affected again he was doing.
Speaker 5: You write that he was doing a combination of at
Speaker 5: some point to treat the headaches, morphine, cocaine and strychnine.
Speaker 5: So how much did drugs affect his behavior? Either at
Speaker 5: trial or before trial, just in this basically in his
Speaker 5: everyday life. How much was that a factor in some
Speaker 5: of this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Queen was very weakened and in his mind physically
Speaker 3: as well. He didn't look a great deal of pain,
Speaker 3: and he knew that at some point he was going
Speaker 3: to become bedridden. And you know, he was having a
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of trends and things and knew.
Speaker 3: I think that's part of the reason why why he
Speaker 3: was basically making his will and getting engaged to Laura.
Speaker 3: He wanted somebody to look after him. He wanted a wife.
Speaker 3: He knew that he was going to you know, he's
Speaker 3: going to need somebody to take care of him. And
Speaker 3: I think that played a big part in his in
Speaker 3: his woman of Laura. So I actually believe that, you know,
Speaker 3: when he went to the scaffold, he pretty much had enough.
Speaker 3: He was he was a small, weak, weak man compared
Speaker 3: to the player that he was in his younger days.
Speaker 3: The ten years in Joliet had really taken their toll,
Speaker 3: and the fact that he'd been deprived of his drugs
Speaker 3: and then able to take them again, you know, it
Speaker 3: affected his mental to stay a great deal.
Speaker 5: You talked about looking at the available material before you
Speaker 5: delved into this and undertook this investigation. We'll say how
Speaker 5: far off the mark was most of the most of
Speaker 5: the literature about Thomas Neil Cream.
Speaker 3: Very there were a lot of things that were not
Speaker 3: known in detail. For example, let's say we didn't have
Speaker 3: anything any evidence against Julia Stott per se. There was
Speaker 3: no statements from the neighbors who'd seen what she was doing,
Speaker 3: in the way that she was behaving and where she's gone.
Speaker 3: We have the evidence from Julia Stott's attorney that actually
Speaker 3: thought that his own his own client was guilty. I
Speaker 3: had that they were also. I mean, there's a couple
Speaker 3: of books written some probably twenty thirty years ago that
Speaker 3: have Cream working in the infirmary and dispensing medicines in
Speaker 3: the in the prison. And at the time when I
Speaker 3: read the books, I thought, I really wondered that why
Speaker 3: would they allow him to do that, known that he's
Speaker 3: you know, he's been incarcerated for murder by poison. And
Speaker 3: as it turns out, when I've got the paperwork through, no,
Speaker 3: it's all actually in there that he's doing hard labor,
Speaker 3: and you know, at some times he's he's quite insolent,
Speaker 3: and he refuses to work. But at no time was
Speaker 3: he ever in the infirmary. He's doing labor. And then,
Speaker 3: as I said, in the granite department. And he's got
Speaker 3: a few times when he has to go into solitary
Speaker 3: confinement as well, and they handcuff him to the door
Speaker 3: and he's put in the dark for eight days at
Speaker 3: a time basically for refusing to work. So that there's
Speaker 3: a lot of there's a lot of things in there
Speaker 3: that you know, we actually didn't really didn't know about him.
Speaker 3: It really gives you, especially the notes handwritten by Claim,
Speaker 3: it gives you an idea. You can compare the two
Speaker 3: sets of notes. One is where he's very determined. He's
Speaker 3: in court and he's writing to the attorney. He's convinced
Speaker 3: that he's going to get off with this. He's got
Speaker 3: a plan and this is what we need to ask him,
Speaker 3: and this is what we need to say. And then
Speaker 3: we've got the very mellow, romantic doctor Cream who's writing
Speaker 3: these love notes to Laura and you know, basically again
Speaker 3: proclaiming his innocence and come and see me. Everything's going
Speaker 3: to be all right. They've got the wrong man, And yeah,
Speaker 3: it's very interesting to see the two sides of his characters.
Speaker 3: He's almost like a jackal.
Speaker 5: And Hyde, and he's very what you write in this book.
Speaker 5: It seems that he has the confidence from and this
Speaker 5: you know, this lack of this invincibility, but he also
Speaker 5: has the confidence to lie and rebound and adapt to
Speaker 5: whatever needs to get done, whatever that may be, whether
Speaker 5: it's insurance scam or a fire or killing someone or
Speaker 5: until we get to Laura, where it just seems a
Speaker 5: different time in his life completely, and I agree with you,
Speaker 5: it seems like just once, maybe just one person in
Speaker 5: his entire life, he cared a shred a morticum of
Speaker 5: emotions about.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think pretty much thinks she was the
Speaker 3: only only one in his love life. Anyway. I think
Speaker 3: his both. I mean, he's very close to both of
Speaker 3: his parents that came from quite a religious family. His
Speaker 3: mother's death was very hard on him when he was young,
Speaker 3: and then he took his father's death quite hard as
Speaker 3: well while he was actually inside Joliet. So I think,
Speaker 3: you know, from that point to be very close to
Speaker 3: his family, but he's still got this this deep insect
Speaker 3: his woman hatred. I mean, he even hates his sister
Speaker 3: in law, his brother Daniel, petitions a lot get Thomas
Speaker 3: out of prison, but he's got this deep hatred of
Speaker 3: Daniel's wife when he goes to stay there, just the
Speaker 3: way that she is. She's a little bit brave and
Speaker 3: she's outspoken, and he's this he's got this hatred who
Speaker 3: believes that woven have you got a place and they
Speaker 3: should behave in a particular way, which probably stems from
Speaker 3: his mother because obviously being deeply religious and his father
Speaker 3: being the bread winner and controlling the family.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't think it begins to explain the murderous
Speaker 5: career of Thomas Neil Cream, but certainly it is a
Speaker 5: fascinating story and investigation that you've undertaken to I think
Speaker 5: finally set the record straight that it would be highly,
Speaker 5: highly impossible or improbable that Thomas Neil Cream is Jack the.
Speaker 3: Ripper, Yes, right completely.
Speaker 5: Now, before I let you go again, we've walked around
Speaker 5: this sort of subject. But you said that it would
Speaker 5: be a subject of a sequel or follow up to
Speaker 5: this book. So whatever you can tell us about that,
Speaker 5: please tell us about that.
Speaker 3: Okay. So, after I'd finished writing Prisoner for three seventy four,
Speaker 3: I looked at the various people that Thomas had been
Speaker 3: in contact with when he was at Symtomasis and around
Speaker 3: the Lambert area and in communication with, and one particular
Speaker 3: person that had cropped up in his life is the
Speaker 3: character of Art. So I've spent the last year and
Speaker 3: a half investigating this particular person, and I've uncovered a
Speaker 3: lot of letters in an archive and I haven't been
Speaker 3: read before that really goes to incriminate this in the
Speaker 3: White Chapel murders. I really can't say too much about
Speaker 3: what I've found because there are a lot of things
Speaker 3: that still need to be investigated. But this is an
Speaker 3: ongoing thing that I'm looking into now with the White
Speaker 3: Chapel murders. So hopefully I've got a good suspect and
Speaker 3: the book are is for Ripper I'm hoping will be
Speaker 3: out at some point next year.
Speaker 5: That sounds very exciting, sounds very very interesting. Again, any
Speaker 5: new information is just you know, people are waiting for
Speaker 5: the ripperlogists and all the fans of this case, these
Speaker 5: are waiting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these letters have been These letters have been tucked
Speaker 3: away for a very long time, not read. I actually
Speaker 3: got quite ill when I opened them. Up because they
Speaker 3: were all covered in dust and spalls, and some of
Speaker 3: them are a little bit fire damaged as well. So
Speaker 3: it's very, very exciting to actually read them. Things that
Speaker 3: come from the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties that haven't
Speaker 3: been opened before, and I was able to open them
Speaker 3: all up and get that information. So again it's it's
Speaker 3: just been a case of knowing where to look and
Speaker 3: luckily I managed to pick the right place.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's amazing. We look forward to that in the
Speaker 5: near future. Thanks, thank you, Thank you for those people
Speaker 5: that want to find out more about Prisoner four three
Speaker 5: seven four and the work that you do. AJ. Do
Speaker 5: you have a Facebook page or a website that people
Speaker 5: might refer to. How can they contact you or information?
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you have a look on AJ Griffith Jones
Speaker 3: on Facebook. I'm on there. There's also a book group
Speaker 3: called we Love AJ's award winning Books. People. It's a
Speaker 3: closed group of people can can join the group and
Speaker 3: they can find about ongoing projects that I've got there.
Speaker 3: I'm also I've written a series of mystery stories. Have
Speaker 3: they a series of five? There's actually the fourth what
Speaker 3: is coming out in May. So anybody wants to join
Speaker 3: the book club, or have a look at my author
Speaker 3: page on Facebook. All the informations up there about the
Speaker 3: things that I've got ongoing, lots of exciting projects underway there.
Speaker 5: Sure well. I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 5: aj for coming on and talking about prisoner four three
Speaker 5: seven four. It's been fascinating. Thank you very much, and
Speaker 5: you have even.
Speaker 3: Andy. Thanks very much, Don bydbye, good night.