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Speaker 1: Alright, we have a very special episode here today. We

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have Jay Dyer, who is, if you're not familiar with,

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is an Orthodox Christian apologist, a student of philosophy, theology,

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co host the Alex Jones Show as well as the

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Sam Hyde Show, co creating co host of Hollywood Decoded.

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He is a general nightmare for every soy boy in

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the apologetics arena. Jay, really really happy that you've come

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back on here today. I appreciate it absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We had a great conversation a while back, so I'm

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always down to come back and chat it up some more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, it was actually good chat. You actually changed

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a few of my understandings and views on things. But first,

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first and foremost, we are talking about end times today

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and how that we reconcile that with Israel and American

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evangelicalism and how they view the political Israel and the

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state and how it's going to work in the end

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times and biblical prophecy. But before get into all that,

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after watching your videos for quite some time, you're a

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man of many accents. Can you do an Australian one? Uh?

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Speaker 2: You're Australian, I assume.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah mate, Yeah, I'll just talk like this.

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Speaker 3: Australian I think pretty well, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's it's it's not too bad. It's not too bad.

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That's a little bit. It sounds like a pommy a

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little bit, a little bit British. The key is is

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trying to talk out of the nose instead of how

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are you going? Hang gown your naws? That's it a gown.

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That's not a bad effort. I love it. That's great,

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that's good. We can try and do the podcast in

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Australian accents if you like to make it really entertaining.

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Hey mate, what about end times? Right? You should see

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you should any christ? Yeah, pre belletial, this becalist, Mike,

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I'll tell.

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Speaker 3: You what I had to think for a second to

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run the program in my head of Australian speak.

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Speaker 1: So, dude, it's actually it's hilarious watching other people trying

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to do it. It's a very very hot it probably

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a Sithifrican accent is quite odd as well. But if

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you've ever played that rugby you you'll get to it's

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very melodic. Yeah, and almost the Scottish just then.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm from the South, so when I hear people

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trying to do Southern accent in the US.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty. It's pretty noticing.

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Speaker 1: How you doing, baby, Let's talk eschatologia and times? Baby,

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not bad. I'm trying. I man, I like doing accents.

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Speaker 2: To hey girl, Hey girl, you won't come talk about

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and times of me? What you doing to that? Darling?

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Speaker 1: Is it? Man? Is it in the South, especially in

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the Bible Belt? Is it all like premium dispensationalism, rap schut?

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Speaker 2: A lot of it?

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Speaker 1: What percentag would you think it is?

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Speaker 2: Probably seventy eighty percent?

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Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, that's big, because you know it's funny. When

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I got into my Christian faith, I actually watched a

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lot of apology at church. Jeff Derbin, James White, and

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I know it used to be a Calvinist as well,

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and they were really advocating for this postal eschatology. And

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I will get you to explain it for the audience

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to the different viewpoints. But one thing for me was

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just seeing the historical fulfillment in seventy eight D kind

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of blew me away and it really impacted my faith

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in a positive way, you know, just to see God's

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word come true and how so many Christians believed in

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this understanding of pre meal, just qush, just let's just

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probably start this. Can you explain these with end times

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and the fascination with the millennial kingdom and what the

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three positions are for the audience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the basics of are premal all mil postmil. Premillennialism

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says that Jesus returns before the thousand year kingdom or millennium,

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and usually most of them agree that there's some kind

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of relationship to the nation state of Israel. Not everybody

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is a dispensational prim millennialists. There are some just pre

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millennial minded people. Some of the early first, second, first,

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second century Church Fathers were just pre millennial but they

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were not dispensationalists. So the idea is again Jesus comes back,

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sets up an earthly kingdom, he rules from most people

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think Jerusalem. There is a time of peace, prosperity, and

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for them this fulfills all of these global eschatological prophecies

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in the prophets, you know, in the New Testament and

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the Book of Revelation.

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Speaker 2: So that's pre millennialism and then a millennialism.

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Speaker 3: Millennialism is the idea that the kingdom is a spiritual reality,

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not the premal most necessarily deny its spiritual but the

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focus of the millennium is a literal, historical a thousand

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your kingdom on Earth. Amil says that there is not

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a literal thousand year kingdom on earth.

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Speaker 2: It's a spiritual.

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Speaker 3: Reality that began with either the beginning of the world

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and all of God's people from the very beginning, or

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it begins with the First Advent of Christ setting up

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the kingdom which is the Church.

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Speaker 2: And they don't necessarily.

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Speaker 3: Have a positive view of estatology. Most millennialists think that

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the world gets kind of progressively worse and then we

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get the return of Christ and then you just have

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the end of the world period, right, so that's the

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final judgment, the great White Throne, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, it's the end.

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Speaker 3: And then post Mill says that there is a kingdom

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that's set up that is the Church. It's synonymous with

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the First Advent. It's not a literal thousand years. For

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almost every post millennialists there are there have been a

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few post Mill people who thought that Jesus set it

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up and then the kingdom went in with one thousand years.

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Speaker 2: Later, but that's very very few people.

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Speaker 3: But so post Mail typically has a positive appraisal of

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where history is going, and the idea that a lot

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of those prophecies are fulfilled, not at an end times

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literal kingdom, but that the Church grows and grows and grows,

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kind of like a tree from a seed to a tree,

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filling the whole earth. The knowledge of the Lord will

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cover you know, the earth as the water covers the sea.

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All the tribe sellings and nations will not necessarily all

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be converted, but it will be a worldwide.

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Speaker 2: Phenomenon at some point.

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Speaker 3: So the first two tend to be pretty pessimistic in

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their appraisal of where we are and where history is going,

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and post millennism tends to be more long sighted in

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the fact that maybe we've got another ten thousand years.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we got you know, time the world to be.

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Speaker 3: Christianized in some significant sense, and then comes the return

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of Christ. So that's the basic breakdown of the three positions.

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And then amongst, as you mentioned, the first position to premillennialism,

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there is this subset that became very popular in the

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last one hundred plus years from John Nelson Darby and C. I. Schofield,

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the Plymouth Brethren and then the US with a lot

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of evangelicals what's called dispensationalism, which is the idea that

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history's chopped up into a bunch of different plan bes

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that God had for people, and many of them believe

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in a dual covenant theology that a lot of the

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promises to the nation state of Israel were not fulfilled

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and so they still lack fulfillment. But there's this sort

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of separate thing going on with the Gentile Church, which

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is a separate covenant from the churches from the Nation

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State of Israel. So you've got church in Israel, two

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dual covenants, and then in the future there will be

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this you know, pre tribulation, rapture, and there will be

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this series of you know.

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Speaker 1: And just to interject here, one of the reasons why

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this is an important topic, we actually see it influence

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certain international foreign policies and the culture of American evangelicalism.

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This idea that is that of these covenants yet to

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be fulfilled, and how we interpret that for the nation

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state of Israel. It almost gets to the point where

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you've heard those sermons of passes in the States, where

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let's bring on the Third Temple, let's demolish the mosque

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and bring about the end times. There's almost this idea

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that they can bring about the end times themselves if

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they get this third temple rebuilt on the Temple Mount

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So and there's a huge part of the population that

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believes this, almost advocating for starting a new Holy war.

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So it is actually far more serious even from an

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unbelievers perspective. And you need to take this serially because

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so influential. So that's that's certainly something to consider. Can

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you briefly explain pan millennialism as well for the audience

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is a niche option.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what pan millennialism.

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Speaker 1: It's means all pan out so flight joke there we

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are cliche biblical joke for people that get so worried

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in the different positions. We actually have a lot of

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Christian brothers and sisters actually fight over it over end times.

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I mean we all we always try and reconcile the

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best we can.

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Speaker 2: But one thing I.

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Speaker 3: Would say is that in the attitude of the Orthodox

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and the Calvic Church, romancloy Church and Orthodox Church, the

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Second Acumenical Council dealt with killism or the idea of

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literal millennialism, and it forbade it when it composed the

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addition to the Nicene Creed which says whose kingdom shall

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have no end? That was actually intended to be added

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to exclude any form of pre millennialism.

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Speaker 2: So no orthodox or calog person can.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. So it is the church historically or postmil or

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how do they?

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Speaker 3: I would say predominantly amil, But you could make an

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argument that some people had a positive quasi post mail approach.

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Speaker 1: And it makes sense too because if we go to

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the dating system, you know, anam Domini the year of

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our Lord, they must have seen him reigning in some capacity.

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You can't make a historical case for pre millennialism of

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for the church. And now that you've mentioned that, could

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you just briefly mentioned that again, which Econmenical council would

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to create?

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Speaker 3: So the second Acumenical councils kind of Constantinople one in

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three eighty one. It was presided over by saying mildials

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of Antioch and the chief theologians are the Cappadocians. So

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Basil Gregor of Nissa and Gregor nazi Azeus are the

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main theological proponents of that council. This is the one

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after and I see it it was held actually out

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of communion with Rome, which is interesting because we typically

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use that as an argument against papal authority in the

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early Church, because you have an acumenical council defining the Trinity,

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and this is really the essential trinitarian council after and

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of course Nicea deals with the deed of Christ, and

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then constant umber One deals with the triad and it

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affirms the Cappadocian doctrine of the Trinity, but it also

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deals with other errors in heresy that were around at

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that time. It deals with the pollinarianism. I think it's

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the first time that that's addressed, and millennialism.

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Speaker 1: What's pollinarianism.

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Speaker 3: Pollinaris is a heretic who denied the full humanity of Christ.

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He denied Christ having a rational soul, and so the

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replacement in Christ for the rational soul he thought was

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the person of the logos, and the rejection of that

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was on the basis of the fact that if Christ

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didn't assume all of our nature, including all of its parts,

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including irrational soul, then he didn't redeem us. He can't

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redeem a whole man if he doesn't assume that whole

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man's nature. And I don't mean to start, you know, squabbles.

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But William Lane Craig, for example, is a modern day

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self profess a pollinarian. He believes the appollinarian position. So

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he's an example of somebody who would disagree with the

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Second Acumenical Council.

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Speaker 2: But that's just a separate issue from escaltal.

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Speaker 1: Just real quick that just on that point, I wouldn't

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mine since you brought it up, because I saw that

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he recently, you know, did a debate with Muhammad Hijab

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and he was actually commenting him on that that the

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historical Church has got it wrong. According to William Lane

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Craig with regards to the Trinity, why did he take that?

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I assumed many the many the positions with top line

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apologists aren't necessarily I would they'd say they're adhering to scripture.

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But you can see that it seems to come from

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an apologetic standpoint about what's the best argument, what's the

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best argument of defense? Why did he take just according

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to your opinion, why would he take that position on

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the Trinity?

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Speaker 3: What Trinity is reflecting from his position on personhood in Christ?

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So because he thinks that personhood is in some way

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a reducible to a trade of nature. That's the Apollinarian mistake.

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He does the same thing in terms of personhood in

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the Trinity. So he believes in what's called the inseparability

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of the separability of.

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Speaker 2: Operations in the Trinity.

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Speaker 3: So he has a position that nobody in the verse

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thousand years of the Church had that the persons of

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the Trinity have their own will and energy. All Trinitarian

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theology has always held that there's one will, one essence,

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in one operation in the Triad. So he departs from

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that Trinitarian view. I don't exactly know what he thinks.

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I'm sure he's got some reason why he thinks that's

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a solution to problems, but it probably due to challenges

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from Muslims on what's called the logical problem of the Trinity.

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But if you want, if you look up doctor bo Branson,

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he's an Orthodox professor. That's a good buddy of ours.

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We've done a couple breakdowns of this position from William

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Land Craig and doctor Branson just published a book with

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doctor Craig on four of you on this issue.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, Well, what I'll do is I might get

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you to send me that link and I'll leave it

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in the description below. This is just a quick digression

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to the into the trinity, but for those that are

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interested in this, we'll leave it in the description for

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you to follow up on that. That would be highly interesting.

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I'll watch that myself. Okay, so good.

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Speaker 3: He'd be a good if you want to like an

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Orthodox professor on anytime, Doctor Brands would be really good.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely check it out. You my last video,

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you messed with my epistemology and no you're with our

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last podcasts. Yeah. Man, you had to really reconcile how

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broken sole the scripture is anyway, So it's something that

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I've been reconciling over time. Nonetheless, I think yeah, I'll

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definitely follow up that video as well. Now for clarification,

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what is your position? Where are you at? Catallogically speaking?

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Speaker 3: That book that compares the US is called One God.

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It just came out One God, three Persons, four views. Awesome, okay,

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and with Kayline Craig is in there, Doctor bo Branton

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is in there, and I forget the other guys in there.

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Speaker 1: But we'll leave that. We'll leave that Amazon link as well.

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Speaker 2: I have a. I would say that I tend to

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favor the post mill position. I think has the most

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evidence behind it.

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Speaker 3: But there's also the possibility that you could have a

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fulfillment of a lot of those positive universalized texts within

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a short span of time. So a lot of times

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postmo people say, well, maybe we've got ten thousand more years. Well,

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if you look at Roma's eleven, Paul says that when

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the Jews convert, it'll be like life from the dead, right,

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And so you get this idea that it might even

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be possibly a phenomenon that only takes a few years

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to achieve the fulfillment of a lot of the prophecies

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about the the widespread acceptance of the Church and the

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success of Christianity.

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Speaker 1: Okay, plenty of things that come back to you. I've

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even got a friend of mine that believes were in

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the little season where Satan is loosed after the millennial rate, people.

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Speaker 2: Calling in and asking me and I don't even know

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what I mean, I know what.

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Speaker 1: The tax My mate JT follows JC. I call him

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the Christian Alex Jones. Okay, he's on Instagram. I've about

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one hundred thousand followers. Super passionate guy, but loves to

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try and draw in all the conspiracy theories through a

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Christian lens. It's a bit of entertainment, but he is convicted.

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He does you know, he does love the Lord. But

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he he's really a strong advocate for it. When we

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started talking about post mill and he's gone on this

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year journey and he's really the one that's really pushing

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this narrative. Actually the little season. It's an interesting thing

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because he's tied it in with these dates. And I'll

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explain another time. But one of the reasons I like

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for anyone, especially in terms of my audience, they like

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apologetics like yours. One of the reasons post millennialism is

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and a millennialism is a strong position to consider, is

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because you'll see that there's an atheistic hand grenade that

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gets thrown out towards Christians. And Christopher Hitchins did it

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on his tour with a lot of pastors and pologists

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who were pre millennial which is the idea that Matthew

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twenty four, Luke twenty one, Mark thirteen, the Olive It discourse,

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the end of the world that was predicted by Jesus

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never happened. And guess what if it never happened, Jesus

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is a false prophet, and the only way for the

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premal position to get round that is when Jesus says

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all these things will take place in this generation, have

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to change the word from this to that, they corrupt

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the text. So, in your opinion, if you can explain

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how I would love to get into this olive discourse,

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and then I'd love to live the israel component and

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the dual coment theology and all that for the latter

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half of this episode, just to get people understanding about

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end times and why it's important. This hand grenade by

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atheist is still being used today. Alex O'Connor, bart and

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Dan McClellan, all these guys, they're saying that Jesus is

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a false prophet because of the end of the world

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did not happen. So without having to go through everything,

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can you take me the two main scriptures in that

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in Matthew twenty four is the idea of the Son

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of Man coming in the clouds. How do you interpret

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that the idea that every man will see it, everyone

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on the earth will mourn when they see the Sun

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of Man coming in the clouds. That's taken as a

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literal prophecy, the perusia. How do you negotiate your way

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out of the text, as mister doctor Dan McClellan says

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all the time, Well.

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Speaker 3: We already have in Ezekiel and in Isaiah very similar

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prophetic language that when God comes in judgment on Egypt

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or on battleon that he will come in the clouds,

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he will, you know, destroy the city the idols. Right,

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you get this very similar type of prophetic language. That

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was not talking about a bodily advent. It was simply

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talking about the destruction of that empire by another force,

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another empire. On top of that, I think it's also

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important to understand that the Orthodox view, as I would argue,

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and I have, you know, plenty of Orthodox saints and

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theologians and elders and bishops that can can back this up.

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But we believe in a mirrored fulfillment. So if you

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look at what the temple symbolized, the temple is a

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little miniature of the universe. And you know, Paul makes

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us very clear and Hebrews seven when he talks about

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the you know, high priests going into the Holy of Holies,

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that's signifies Jesus going up into in the ascension.

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Speaker 2: Of the Holy of Holies, which is when he began

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his reign right.

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Speaker 3: So we have to understand that Psalmon ten, every time

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it's quoted in New Testamus, sit in my right hand,

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I'll make your enemies of footstool is a statement not

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about the second Coming, but about the ascension. So the

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reign of Christ begins when he ascend it. And in

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that model of the way, Hebrews, in my view, talks

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about the Temple in its ministry and it's being wiped away.

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The Orthodox exegesis has typically said, whether it's Chrysostom or

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any other say in the Church that talks about this

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specific issue, that's a symbol of a sign of the

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future rolling up of the heavens and the earth right,

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which is like a scroll in the conflagration or in

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the restoration.

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Speaker 2: Right the Escaton.

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Speaker 3: So the very destruction of the Temple in seventy eighty

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itself points forward to the conflagration and the destruction of

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the universe in order to restore it to its original

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Edenic state.

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Speaker 2: That's the Orthodox view.

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Speaker 3: The other thing I would say is that this mirrored

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view is also proven by the Maccabees and it's very

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helpful for Orthodox because we have first, second, and third

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Maccabees in our book.

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Speaker 1: Jo quickly, do you consider it? Does the Orthodox consider

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I know it's a part of the canon, but do

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they consider it inspired Macabees? Yeah, they do consider it inspired. Okay? Cool?

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And in many ways for me, I've always especially with Maccabees,

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even in First Enock, how they refer to the Gost

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New Testament writers refer to Enoch for the Enoch Maccabee's

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shows so much interesting fulfillment, even from Daniel, and they

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provide so much context. I mean, it really does make

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sense why it's a part of the canon in many ways.

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Speaker 3: And anyway, continue and it well, it helps with preterism,

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is what I'm getting at here, right. And so if

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you if you're an Orthodox, if you're an Eastern you know,

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reader of the texts, and you have the Duro Canon,

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which is pretty early on in the Eastern Church. You

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can find i think it's Theditiki as a prederist text.

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You can find a Hippolytus of Rome.

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Speaker 1: Why do you say the Dedicay is a prederist text.

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Speaker 3: There's a specific statement about seventy a d And it's

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either a pistol, Barnabus or dedicate. One of them has

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a reference to the destruction of the temple as.

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Speaker 1: Interesting that might become a future real Thanks mate, I'll

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give you credit.

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Speaker 3: Apoliticis of Rome is one of the first to talk

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about seventy eight being a fulfillment, and we can get

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into the church Father's later. Of course, Christism has entire

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sermons on Luke twenty one Matthew twenty four that the

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cover preterism origin was a preterist I'm going from memory here.

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Athanasius interprets Daniel nine about the First Advent, not about

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you know, the end of the world, that you could

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say is also adjacent to preterism anyway. But back to

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this mirroring point about the mccabees. We know that when

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Antiochus Sapafani's when he sacrifices the pig on the altar

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in the Book of Maccabees, that's the defiling of the temple.

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That's called the abomination of desolation. When Jesus talks about

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what's coming, he calls it an abomination of the desolation

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or of desolation.

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Speaker 1: Just look to the Profet Daniel. Yeah, so that.

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Speaker 3: We know that Daniel was prophesying the mccabees, but it

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also applies to seventy eight, you see, So it's.

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Speaker 2: A mirrored thing.

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Speaker 3: And my argumentation there is that by extension, the same

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principle applies that the removal of the Temple in seventy

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a d also points forward to the removal of this

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administration of the heavens and the earth. Right, Paul likens

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the temple to add him to the Old Covenant, to

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the mortality of the flesh, and we still have that

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reality around today. Right Paul says that even though Christ reigns,

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we do not yet see all things subjected to him,

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even though they are so there's still aspects of even

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the Old Covenant, you could say, where we still have mortality,

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we still have death, we still have the adamic existence

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which is embodied you could say, in the Temple in

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its administration. So the Temple's been destroyed, that's all gone,

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but the temple look forward to the rolling up of

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the heavens and the earth, and that hasn't happened yet.

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Speaker 2: And I say that because I.

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Speaker 3: Just had a debate with a full preterist the other

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day on mind Channel, and we went into some of this,

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and he admitted a future fulfillment, but the very thing

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that the future fulfillment of the temple signifies, he says,

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has already happened, so it wouldn't be a future for filming.

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Speaker 1: Sorry. And there's demons still active today, so I don't

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understand how they reconcile exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's at the same point it's does evil still operate? Yeah,

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but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I made mind just going to watch

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this as a full predice. Then I'm going to send

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them that I'm going to I'm going to clip that

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and send it to him. Here's here's something, So the

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Abomination of Desolation, So Jesus is going through these signs

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what's going to happen? In Matthew twenty four And just

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so everyone understands, there's parts of Daniel ezekiel Revelation and

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what we call the All of It Discourse Matthew twenty four,

450
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Luke twenty one, Mark thirteen, which is about this same event.

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I think Revelation goes deeper more than any other book

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into the future. And and so Matthew and Mark specifically mentioned

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Abomination Desolations spoke a by the prophet Daniels. So if

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going back to this Greek king, he also from memory

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he besieged Jerusalem, right, and he basically went to war

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with with Jerusalem. Did he not banish?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he's so besieged Jerusalem, and he sacrificed a

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pig on the altar, which.

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Speaker 2: Is not violent.

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Speaker 1: And so this this abomination desolation, and I understand, but

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the statue of Zeus, it also encompasses, you know, in

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many ways that war is coming. What happened, what what

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the Greek king did all those years ago, spoken by

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the prophet Daniel, what was prophesied essentially is going to

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happen again. And so people see this language and you

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mentioned it before the sun and moon dark and you know,

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the stars falling from the heavens. This is all Isaiah

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Ezekiel imagery of destruction. Yeah. So so there's these there's

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this lead up where it seems to be considered the

470
00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:04,440
premial dispensation is considered a worldly event. But even Jesus says,

471
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,799
how do you avoid it? Flee to the mountains of

472
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,279
Judea pray that's not Sabbath.

473
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,079
Speaker 3: Sabbath which is a reference obviously to is immediate audience.

474
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, and pray that it's not in winter. Flee to

475
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,880
the mountain. Jujita. Now listen, I'm in Townsville, North Queensland,

476
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,559
the Texas. Stude, dude, It's going to be very hard

477
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:25,640
for me to get to you know what I mean.

478
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,640
I feel like Jesus is making it hard for me.

479
00:26:29,519 --> 00:26:32,359
So it seems to be localized, and there seems to

480
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:38,480
be a localized, consistent theme. So where does this idea

481
00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:42,359
of a that Matthew twenty four this olive discourse is

482
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,359
a worldly event, you know, a global event. Where does

483
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,960
that come from that understanding interpretation? Well?

484
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,319
Speaker 3: I do think in the early Church, from the earliest days,

485
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,279
people did kind of immediately just assume and read it

486
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:59,599
as only referring to the Second Advent. And I don't

487
00:26:59,599 --> 00:27:01,920
think that it's wrong necessarily to think that there is

488
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,519
no reference to the Second Advent.

489
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: Again, if you.

490
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: Believe in this sort of mirrored fulfillment, which is the

491
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,680
very point I think.

492
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,839
Speaker 1: Of time, dual fulfillment, well it would it be.

493
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,279
Speaker 2: Dual because it would be mirrored.

494
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: Duel is just too and there's more than like like.

495
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: For example, like a shadow fulfillment.

496
00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 3: And then like me get so the babyloning captivity is

497
00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:26,680
the destruction of the First Temple, and a lot of

498
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,400
the prophecies and statements about the destruction of that temple

499
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,799
also applied to the future destruction of the Temple under

500
00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:37,680
the Maccabees when it's defiled, and the seventy eight D

501
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:41,480
destruction of Harris Temple. So that's why I keep saying

502
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,880
the word mirrored, because I don't even know that I

503
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,400
would say it's dual, because again, the destruction of the

504
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,000
Temple and seventy eight D is a sign of the

505
00:27:50,079 --> 00:27:52,240
configuration and the destruction of the entire.

506
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: Universe to be restored. So when we say destruction of the.

507
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,279
Speaker 3: Universe is the Orthodox, we think that the universe gets

508
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,279
restored to an e den x state.

509
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:02,799
Speaker 2: It's not like wiped.

510
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: Away, Heaven and Earth back together again.

511
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah.

512
00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, And I guess that's why we see

513
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,960
in Ezekiel fourteen, you know, these same four judgments of Jerusalem,

514
00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:17,680
John reiterates that, and with the Imagery of the Horseman,

515
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:22,440
exactly the same judgments and this mirror fulfillment, and even

516
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,839
with Paul, So, can can we just speak into something

517
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,759
now that the idea that it might have something to

518
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:31,000
do with the second Coming in terms of this mirror fulfillment,

519
00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:33,079
which I think a lot of the critical scholarship at

520
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,680
the moment says, it's quite both when the apostles say

521
00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:40,000
to Jesus that when will be when the temple falls down?

522
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:41,240
When's this going to happen? And when we will be

523
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:43,200
the coming the sign of the coming of the end

524
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,119
of the age. Right, So I think it does refer

525
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,880
to both, and I think it's fair to have that

526
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,519
and that mirror for filming that you as you describe it,

527
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:54,240
creates that link there that we can link it in

528
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,680
with seventy a d n with the future. In terms

529
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,119
of critical scholarships, say like your Dan McClellans and your

530
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,839
skeptics will say that their first century expectation with Paul

531
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:11,079
is that they believed, you know, sell everything, the end

532
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,880
is coming soon, and then you can see their views

533
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,200
somewhat evolve over time, even in the New Testament scriptures

534
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:19,920
like even that's why in Second Peter it's kind of like,

535
00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:22,680
you know, one day's a thousand years and people are

536
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,720
crying out, when's this is going to happen? So what

537
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,200
is your thought in answering that that if the first

538
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,400
central expectation was that the Olivet discourse and that prophecy

539
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,200
had to do with the end of the world coming

540
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:35,119
soon and it didn't come about, you know, how do

541
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,000
we answer that that that critical take.

542
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: Well, again, the fact that some people got it wrong

543
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,759
doesn't mean that it wasn't fulfilled. In the same way

544
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,799
that Jews, for example, got it wrong in terms of

545
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:53,000
interpreting the prophecies for Christ's First Advent, the fact that

546
00:29:53,039 --> 00:29:56,680
the Jews got that wrong wouldn't mean that there wasn't

547
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,359
a first Advent. It would just simply mean that the

548
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,119
Jews got it wrong. So likewise, in the early Church,

549
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,519
the fact that people misunderstood Paul, I mean, Peter even

550
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:08,559
says that, you know, people misunderstand and misinterpret Paul's writings

551
00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:11,720
because he writes about difficult things, right, So you know,

552
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,160
that's really I would say, people that think that as

553
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,759
a good argument is kind of a fallacious non sequitor.

554
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,440
And I would just say that even in the early Church,

555
00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,720
the centuries that we mentioned, you know, you've got kind

556
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,880
of competing interpretations amongst the church fathers. But what's interesting

557
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,440
about and it's not totally the Western or the Eastern Fathers,

558
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,599
but preterism dominate partial predism dominates in the Eastern Church Fathers,

559
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:36,440
which is just interesting.

560
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

561
00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:39,759
Speaker 3: Exactly what the reason for that is, but maybe because

562
00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,880
they had access to typically directly reading the Greek text,

563
00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:45,720
and then the West you get tendency to you know,

564
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,079
read the Vulgate and the Jerome's translation. So maybe a

565
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:52,880
lot of the Greek didn't translate that well to them.

566
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:53,759
Speaker 2: I'm speculating.

567
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:58,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you do have a pretty consistent attestation to

568
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:04,400
preterism from you know, people that listed origin athanacious very clear.

569
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,319
In Saint John Christis without any doubt, I believe, even

570
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,839
Usebius refers to the seventy eight as a destructure.

571
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:13,079
Speaker 1: All the CBS writings that, like, you know the fact

572
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:15,039
that they went to the mountain city of Pella, the

573
00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:17,720
Christians escaped, Yeah, you know, like he's seen it, he

574
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:18,160
must be.

575
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:20,119
Speaker 2: Seeing And on top of that, yeah, exactly.

576
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,839
Speaker 3: I when I wrote, I wrote a grad paper on

577
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:25,839
partial preudhism for one of my history classes, because I

578
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,279
did a double in history and I almost have a

579
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:32,279
double measure. But in my history class, I wrote on

580
00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,240
orcue me as an undergrad paper I wrote on Josepha's

581
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,440
So I read Josepha's account of these events and sort

582
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,160
of lined it up with Luke twenty one in Matthew

583
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,240
twenty four, and it's pretty pretty clearly. I mean, Josepha

584
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:49,440
doesn't have any interest in vindicating the Bible, he doesn't

585
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,640
care about the New Testament text. But his eyewitness account

586
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,559
does line up with what Matthew twenty four and Luke

587
00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:59,400
twenty one described. So that's another you know, sort of

588
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,839
extra conn I'm called attestation to these events.

589
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,839
Speaker 1: And it's frightening in terms of and this is what

590
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,640
got me in a lot of ways. When you see

591
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,599
things like Josephus mentioned the five months siege and in

592
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,920
Revelation you see that that took five months, they'll wish

593
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,400
they were dead and it won't have it. Then they'll

594
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,440
receive it, or even eating the babies and things like that,

595
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,640
pray that it's not pregnant when this happens. And even

596
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,759
this idea, but even the trees being cut around that

597
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:30,440
he describes around Jerusalem, and something really strange right now.

598
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,920
A lot of Josephus is used to try and disprove

599
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,720
the New Testament. A lot of the critics do that,

600
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,160
you know, with the dating of Luke or Querinius and

601
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,240
all those things. But then you see this odd thing

602
00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:44,000
that Josephus mentions about chariots in the heavens coming out

603
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,480
of the sky. And he's like, and he says, this

604
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:49,240
sounds like a fable. He goes, yes, I'm just reporting.

605
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,279
I'm just reporting what they're saying. So they like to

606
00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:56,039
ignore that part. This heavenly looks like a heavenly judgment

607
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,440
coming out of the skies from Josephus of all people.

608
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:00,400
What do you see about that?

609
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: Now? I cited that in that paper.

610
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 3: I cited that, I cited the other manifestations of things

611
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,759
that he talks about. I want to say, I mean,

612
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:11,519
I'm going for I haven't looked at this in fifteen years,

613
00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:13,720
but I want to say that Josephas talks about even

614
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:16,960
like an earthquake. Yes, I want to say, he talks

615
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,200
about darkness or like a you know, eclipse or something

616
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:21,799
of that nature.

617
00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: I mean, again, this is fifteen.

618
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,759
Speaker 1: He even says that one hundred thousand Jewish people were

619
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,119
enslaved and sent back to Egypt. And that takes us

620
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,200
back to douterotomy that if you turn away from me.

621
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,440
I'll send you back to Egypt.

622
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:37,119
Speaker 2: The curses, Yeah, the Covenant curses exactly.

623
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,079
Speaker 1: So it's just sort of like, yeah, it's hard to

624
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,559
ignore the partial preterism or post millennial worldview when it

625
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:45,480
comes to end times. And now you've mentioned it's quite

626
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:48,079
a lot of church fathers and the other church held

627
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:52,920
a very similar view, which obviously strengthens the case for this.

628
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:55,440
So here's something I have for you. You mentioned something

629
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:57,680
one other thing too, Yeah, go for it. You go on.

630
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,839
Speaker 3: One other thing is also think that it's important that

631
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:03,759
a lot of times when we bring this up, I

632
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:05,119
think a lot of people just default.

633
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why, but they default to Matthew twenty four.

634
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:12,519
Speaker 3: And Matthew's written for a Jewish audience, and so there's

635
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,440
expectations and assumptions, right, But if you read Luke twenty one,

636
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:19,039
I think it's even clearer because it's written for a

637
00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:23,800
gentile audience, that this is definitely talking about something that

638
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,360
will happen contemporary with the people hearing Jesus speak at

639
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,280
that time. Because he says, you know you will you

640
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,400
in front of me, will see Jerusalem surrounded by enemies.

641
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:38,519
Speaker 1: He doesn't use here I mean, there's.

642
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 3: So many things in Luke that kind of just make

643
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,440
it obvious that he's talking about within that you know,

644
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,199
near future span of time.

645
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,039
Speaker 1: It's it's funny how he doesn't mention all that Jewish imagery, right,

646
00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:53,440
because Mak's very Jewish, Matthew's very Jewish. He doesn't mention abomination, desolation.

647
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:56,000
He says, when the armies are at the gates, it's good,

648
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,280
there isn't it. Do you think Luke was written? Mind?

649
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,840
You do? You? Do?

650
00:34:59,880 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: You?

651
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: You put it pre seventy a d.

652
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I mean I tend to think

653
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,079
that we don't want to lose one of our best

654
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,519
evidences for inspiration. And that's the thing about the disservice

655
00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:19,199
that dispensationalism and pre millennialism typically does, is that if

656
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,000
our position is correct, then Matthew twenty four, you know,

657
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:27,079
Mark thirteen, Luke twenty one become very powerful predictions of

658
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,440
what happens in seventy eight. So yeah, I believe that

659
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,760
Revelation was also written pre seventy eighty.

660
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,119
Speaker 1: I am one of the questions that I like to ask,

661
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,679
and because I know the scholars date Luke posts seventy

662
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,599
a d and Matthew is, especially when it comes to

663
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,880
Luke the idea that he documents the acts of the

664
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,800
Apostles and Stevens martyrdom but fails to mention Paul and

665
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,039
Peter they're martyrdom. Fails to mention the nine to eleven

666
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:02,239
of the first century, it's the fall of Jerusalem. So

667
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:05,440
these ideas that he failed to mention, if he wrote

668
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,440
it in the eighties, makes there doesn't seem to be

669
00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:10,760
a literary consistency as to why he would do that

670
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,159
if he wants to give it actory historically, I think

671
00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:16,519
it was after right, Yeah, So it's like the only

672
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:20,000
logical conclusion as to why that information is absent is

673
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:23,960
that it didn't happen yet. So that'd some other theories

674
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,960
which are interesting, But can I can.

675
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: I add one one plug here?

676
00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: My godfather actually just spent the last three or four

677
00:36:33,079 --> 00:36:39,039
years translating and not translating collating. There's a I guess

678
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:42,880
you'd call him Anglican an Anglican, a scholar that's still

679
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,480
I think it's still live, but he's kind of getting

680
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:46,519
nearer to passing away. Have you heard of James Jordan?

681
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,559
So Jordan is a kind of a well known American

682
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,800
kind of biblical symbologist. He's out of the Anglican reformed

683
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,039
and reformed into Englandish tradition. And he wrote a three

684
00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:02,920
volume what amount to now a three volume series, and

685
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:09,079
my godfather just edited, collated and put this together, and

686
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:13,199
that it's written from a partial predters perspective. It's, for example,

687
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,960
if you heard of Peter Lightheart, so Lightheart's in the

688
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,400
same circles as Jordan. So Lightheart put out a two

689
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,480
volume commentary and revelation from a partial preader's view a

690
00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:26,000
couple of years ago, and now Jordan's commentary is out,

691
00:37:26,119 --> 00:37:28,079
and I would just recommend that people are interested, you

692
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,079
can go and get Dean Arnold's commentary.

693
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: U excuse me, Dean Arnold's edited.

694
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 3: Version of James Jordan's three volume commentary, which is saying

695
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:38,960
that's because it just came out.

696
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, awesome. We'll leave it in the description along

697
00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:44,039
with the other Trinity book as well. I think the

698
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,280
advantage of doing these type of episodes here is I

699
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,719
know that the people watching it. It's obviously the views

700
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,039
on my channel was smaller than all the Instagram stuff,

701
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:54,960
but I know people he actually want to learn and

702
00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:56,599
they will follow up these books.

703
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,639
Speaker 2: You'll like this.

704
00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really really good. Okay. So this is the

705
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,960
question I have for you before maybe we move on

706
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:06,440
to the Israel stuff. Is you mentioned something about before

707
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,559
about the idea of maybe so I wasn't sure if

708
00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:13,639
you said certain New Testament writers got their interpretations wrong.

709
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,679
You mentioned Peter. That's difficult to understand him when I've

710
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,880
referenced to Paul. Are you okay with the idea of Paul.

711
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,119
Speaker 3: I don't mean the writers got it wrong, Okay, Okay,

712
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:30,360
I'm saying like a Christians who interpret Paul thinking that

713
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:34,280
it's the end of the world, okay, not the writers.

714
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,920
I don't think the Bible is errors.

715
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: No worries understood. I just wanted to clarify that because

716
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,239
I assumed that was your position. But are you okay

717
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:48,719
with the idea that maybe Poor himself misinterpreted when the

718
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:54,760
end would happen. So, for instance, this idea that poor himself,

719
00:38:55,079 --> 00:38:57,639
this is from a critical standpoint, the idea that Paul

720
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,440
himself believes at the end of the world will happen

721
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:03,000
within his life lifetime, and then maybe his position changes.

722
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,760
Have you heard about this critical take? I have not,

723
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,840
no yeah, okay, Well that's okay. Then I thought you

724
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,760
may have been aware of this idea that the first

725
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,719
central expectation with the New Testament writers such as Paul

726
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,960
and Peter, that it was going to happen in their lifetime,

727
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,159
and then the fact that they didn't. You can see

728
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:23,679
the positions, you know, almost change. So the idea of

729
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,119
even just if you talk about a hypothetical here, whether

730
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:32,920
true or not, an inspired writer potentially themselves misinterpreting the

731
00:39:33,039 --> 00:39:36,119
idea of the perusia. When that would occur, do you

732
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:38,320
reckon that's a possibility that can occur from him? No?

733
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: I mean I I would say that the Apostolic teaching

734
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,440
and their enlightenment from Christ. I would say that they're infalliable.

735
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,400
I don't think they made teaching or theological errors. Now

736
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,559
individually you could say, okay, Peter fell into this error,

737
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:57,440
but he got corrected by Paul. But I'm saying that

738
00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:01,320
when it comes to their normative teaching, what's included in scripture,

739
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,480
I don't think they made errors.

740
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,679
Speaker 1: Okay, Because I think the thing is this, this is

741
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,400
going to be a good segue into Israel, the Kingdom

742
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,559
of God, and the first century misconception the Kingdom of

743
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:17,519
God with Jesus kept redefining, and you know, it's not

744
00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:19,280
coming in ways that could be observed. It's in the

745
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,280
midst of you. It's a mustard seed and the leaven

746
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,800
and the bread. You know, everyone, even John, He's like,

747
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,920
I want to sit at your right hand when you

748
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,679
come into your glory, you know what I mean. He's

749
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,639
like Jesus, like, you have no idea what you're asking.

750
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:31,920
You don't know what that And you know what I

751
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,559
love about that part is that I feel like Jesus

752
00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:38,920
granted him that request at the cross and he sees

753
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,199
and it's like John's like, I never knew this was

754
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,559
going to be the seed of glory, you know, like

755
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,320
that that was the seed of glory that was going

756
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,360
to change the world, the throne or in many figurative ways.

757
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,360
And so with this idea of the redefinition of the foot,

758
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,559
could you explain what was Why did Jesus have to

759
00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:02,440
do that? Why did you have to redefine even the

760
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,400
apostles in acts? You know, it's like when is the

761
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,800
restoration of Israel going to happen? So what were they

762
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,079
expecting the Messiah to do when he arrived in the

763
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:11,719
first century.

764
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,199
Speaker 3: I think that throughout the Gospels and even into the

765
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,639
Book of Acts there it's pretty clear that the standard

766
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,159
Jewish expectation was that you would get another king David,

767
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:28,199
who would rule from Israel, subdue all the enemies. Israel

768
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:31,039
would be on the top of the nations. Everyone would

769
00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:35,480
flow into Israel. The Gentiles went, in some way just

770
00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:39,480
sort of default to, you know, submitting to the nation

771
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:43,800
state of Israel. And when the First Advent was not

772
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:46,440
that that was a letdown, I think to a lot

773
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:50,320
of what the Jews at that time expected, right, I

774
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,679
think it's pretty you know, the Zelots and others like

775
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,760
Simon the Zelot and others like this is kind of

776
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,400
well known that this is what people expected. And so

777
00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:00,760
what Jesus taught instead was, you know, at that point

778
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,239
at that time, repentance and preparation for the coming of

779
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,639
the Kingdom of God. What she says is the basically

780
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:09,719
the presence of the Holy.

781
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: Spirit in your heart. And so you know that's the kingdom.

782
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:18,519
Speaker 3: The Kingdom is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, journalists, you

783
00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:21,239
know all the virtues that Paul lists.

784
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: Just real quick, just real quick. When you said that

785
00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:27,440
in the king is the Holy Spirit. I love that

786
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,360
because one of the translations is that the Kingdom of

787
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,719
God's comedy ways could be observed. It's in the midst

788
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,119
of you. One of the other translations in the Greek

789
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,039
it's in your midst you. Well, it's not just in you,

790
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,320
it's in front of you. And I feel like Jesus,

791
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,760
that's one of the translations. It depends how you take

792
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,480
it exactly, and what does he give his spirit, you know,

793
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,800
And the Kingdom of God is where the presence of

794
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,199
God is. That's why I'm like, it's it's huge, you know,

795
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,320
it goes beyond in many ways. If you look at

796
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,679
the Daniel prophecies and even Isaiah, it's an everlasting kingdom,

797
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,519
one that will never be destroyed. You can destroy a temple,

798
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,199
and when they destroyed the Temple, it wiped out Judaism,

799
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,079
for it was just for three four hundred years, just

800
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,440
their cultural, economic, socio economic, like everything. It's their hub.

801
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,400
Eat it is the hub for all of Judaism. The temple.

802
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,079
You wipe out the temple, you wipe out Judaism in

803
00:43:22,199 --> 00:43:27,000
many ways. And then how do you destroy a billion, moving, breathing,

804
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:30,199
living temples. Do you know what I mean exactly, Like,

805
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,320
how do you destroy that kingdom? You can't. It's ingenious

806
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:34,280
now when you can bind.

807
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 3: Right, And the more you try to stamp it out

808
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:38,320
like the Roman Empire did, the more you know, the

809
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,199
sea the blood of the martyrs is the seat of

810
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:40,599
the church.

811
00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, I totally a great dude.

812
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: There's this thing that I saw the other day about Barabbas, right,

813
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,280
And I never realized that Barabbas means son of the

814
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,679
Father bah Abah, right. And and so you know, you

815
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,400
hear these sermons that we are Barrabbas, we were set free,

816
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,280
that cross was meant for us. You know, Jesus took

817
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,800
penal subs I know that's not it's christ as Victus, right,

818
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:11,039
the Orthodox position on the tone. Yeah. So but this idea,

819
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,039
I think that's okay for me, the idea that Jesus

820
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:14,760
died for me and for my sins and that we

821
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,719
are Barabas. But then I thought to myself, hanging on

822
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,880
a tick. If Barabbas is that son of the Father,

823
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,800
it's almost like you've got a contrast between Heaven and

824
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,800
Earth in front of you at the trial. You've got

825
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,000
the son of Heaven and the son of Earth, the

826
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:33,000
political insurrectionist right, who's also trying to usurp Rome. And

827
00:44:33,079 --> 00:44:36,119
you've got the earthly system and the fleshly system versus

828
00:44:36,199 --> 00:44:40,119
the heavenly spirit system. Now which one did they choose?

829
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,599
The crowd? See where the crowd? We chose Barabas right

830
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,880
seemed given over to us. They did go ahead with

831
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:52,960
the military usurpation of Rome, and they got wiped out.

832
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,719
What happens three hundred years later the heavenly system. You

833
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,519
know that Rome bends the knee. So it's sort of like,

834
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:02,639
you look, get this idea of this promised kingdom. It's real,

835
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,840
It's very real now. It Actually what I try to

836
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,599
explain to people is that the Gospel is and the

837
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,639
kingom of God is so real. You just need to

838
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,039
go to a third world country and see where the

839
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:16,599
Gospel hasn't touched. I almost feel like we're rich kids,

840
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,199
like growing up with a lot of money, and you

841
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,880
just don't appreciate the light or the presence of God

842
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:23,920
in a Western country and you just need to go

843
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,360
to man Papua New Guinea. They're still eating people right

844
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:28,199
above Australia.

845
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 3: Well, and speaking of that, that reminds me of Daniel two.

846
00:45:33,079 --> 00:45:35,719
People overlook the fact that Daniel two towards the end

847
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,039
when he interprets the dream, it's around forty four to

848
00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:38,719
forty seven.

849
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 2: He explains that.

850
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 3: The base of the statue, right, the dream that Nebuchinezer has,

851
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,719
the base is the Roman Empire, the legs of iron

852
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:49,159
and clay.

853
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 2: That's Rome.

854
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 3: That's under that's the empire under which the Messiah is

855
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,079
born and the kingdom is set up. It's another reason

856
00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:01,760
why they're dispensation less than primalennialists, who will typically prolong

857
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,280
and delay that Daniel prophecy to the end of time.

858
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:08,880
It specifically says that in the days of these kings,

859
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,239
meaning under the last one, under the Roman Empire, that

860
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,840
God of the heavens will set up a kingdom which

861
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,199
will not be destroyed, and it will grow like a tree.

862
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: And consume that kingdom. That's the Roman Empire.

863
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: And as you put it out, Daniel's predicting that within

864
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,880
a few centuries, the Roman Empire bends the New to Christianity.

865
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you want to heed something really wild? You know,

866
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,320
there's ten kings of the Kingdom of Iron. Have you

867
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:41,159
counted from Julius Caesar Julius, Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius,

868
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,079
Neo Nero off that Galba Vitellus for Spatian and then

869
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:47,159
Titus the son of spas.

870
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,159
Speaker 2: Interesting.

871
00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: It's super wild. I know from a critical standpoint they

872
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,960
attributed that to Greece and the ten Kings from Alexander

873
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:05,280
through to Antiochus Epiphanies, but knowing that the Messiah would

874
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,920
come in the time of the Fourth Kingdom, Jesus came

875
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,039
the time of Rome, the Christian lens. We see it

876
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:13,920
that way, which I think that's fine because we have

877
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,480
the resurrection. So that's super interesting. Okay.

878
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 3: One thing I would add to that might be kind

879
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,440
of something to peak your audience's interest that you may

880
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,760
not be familiar with, is that we also believe that

881
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,239
as Orthodox that in Revelation five through nine, when John

882
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,719
sees into Heaven, we think, because John's an apostle, he's

883
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,719
also in the spirit on the Lord's Day, he's doing

884
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,119
the liturgy. In our view, so in the midst of

885
00:47:41,199 --> 00:47:45,440
the liturgical prayer and service, John sees the liturgy of Heaven,

886
00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:48,880
and part of that revelation to him is that the

887
00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:54,159
church's worship on Earth is identical to the liturgical worship

888
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,360
in heaven. So whereas the Old Testament temple was a

889
00:47:57,559 --> 00:48:02,360
type and a pattern a tupos, as Paul says about

890
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,519
what Moses received, he received a type of.

891
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: The worship in heaven.

892
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 3: We would say that when the veil was rent, the

893
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,400
temple was destroyed, that means that the reality is now here.

894
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:15,440
So there's a tendency and a lot of Protestant mindsets

895
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:19,119
and grooves and churches. I'm not trying to be fussy

896
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,920
or argumentative or anything, but just pointing out that if

897
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,760
from our perspective, the spiritual worship that came is not

898
00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:32,800
antithetical to liturgy or physicality or materiality. In fact, when

899
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,639
John sees like what he's seeing, yeah, I think so.

900
00:48:39,159 --> 00:48:43,960
But there's a good book on this called Living Orthodox Worship,

901
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:47,360
Living Continuity with the Synagogue of the Temple.

902
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: In the Early Church, and we'll put that in Protestant

903
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:51,800
scholar who's an.

904
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,159
Speaker 3: Anglican liturgist, and Hugh Weiber, he wrote a really good

905
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:59,880
book called Orthodox Liturgy. It's a history of the Byzantine tradition.

906
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:02,679
And both of those I think kind of give a

907
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,519
new perspective or a fresh perspective. If you're a Protestant

908
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:09,639
on the idea that if preterism is true, and if

909
00:49:09,679 --> 00:49:12,840
seventy eight is the you know, instantiation, so to speak,

910
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,639
or the finality of the arrival of the Kingdom, then

911
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,840
that also applies to the worship of the Church, which

912
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,679
is itself in our review. You know, when John starts

913
00:49:25,679 --> 00:49:30,119
seeing like the angels being sent forth in Judgment, it's

914
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:32,239
in the midst of a liturgy, and so we kind

915
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,880
of believe that when the divine liturgy is happening like

916
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,960
this is like sending out spiritual warfare into the world

917
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,480
and into society. You know.

918
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: It's actually just on a side topic, I've been listening

919
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:48,440
to more Orthodox worship. I'm not sure if you call

920
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:54,239
it worship music, but it's very militaristic warlike chance marching,

921
00:49:55,079 --> 00:49:58,679
you know, and you can see that it's a cosmic battle.

922
00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:01,039
To the Orthodox, it's something very enticely. I'm a very

923
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:04,400
passionate student of Mark, and you know, it's just cosmic

924
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,239
apocalyptic battle, you know, casting out demons, fighting with the spirit,

925
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,840
not with a man. You know, it's just it's great.

926
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:16,559
So yeah, no, very cool stuff. So this will be

927
00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:20,119
I guess a great opportunity segue into this idea of Israel.

928
00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:21,320
And one of the reasons I want to do this

929
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,119
today is that within American evangelicalism, this idea of the

930
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:31,280
supporting of political Israel influencing policy foreign policy because they

931
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,440
want to bring about end times prophecy. So let's just

932
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:37,159
get to the bottom of it. What is the orthodox

933
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:42,320
position of the political state of Israel and it's and

934
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:48,880
its position in terms of eschatological fulfillment eschatology in general,

935
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,920
what position does it actually play within the end times?

936
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:52,559
If any.

937
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,159
Speaker 3: I believe that many Church fathers, whether it's Saint Cyril

938
00:50:58,159 --> 00:51:01,320
of Alexandria, Saint John Damasca, you know, some of our

939
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,320
most important theologians, they do interpret Romans eleven in a

940
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,599
future eschatological conversion sense, and so they say that one

941
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:14,440
of the signs of the last last days is the

942
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,320
mass conversion of the Jews.

943
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:19,599
Speaker 2: How exactly that will happen and to what degree.

944
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,599
Speaker 3: Is it eighty percent, one hundred percent, we don't know,

945
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,119
but we do interpret typical or you do see the

946
00:51:24,159 --> 00:51:29,159
Church father typically interpreting Romans eleven in that way, and

947
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,599
even other passages like they will look upon him whom

948
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:34,440
they whom they appears from Zachariah. I think even Saint

949
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,280
Cyril Alexandria says this is even a rture either future

950
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,639
prophecy of the Jews converting to.

951
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 2: So you know, that's kind of in our our mindset

952
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:47,920
going back, you know, way back, way back.

953
00:51:48,159 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 3: But whether that necessarily pertains to the secular, atheistic Zionist

954
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:59,960
nation state, I don't think those two are necessarily connect.

955
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:02,239
They could be, and we just don't really know where

956
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,320
it's going. It could be, you know, Antichrist sets up

957
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,880
a new temple or something like that. We do have

958
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,679
many saints and church fathers that warn that when you

959
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,360
do see a new temple in the sense of the

960
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,599
animal sacrifices and all that, that would be a sign

961
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,119
of the final end times in anti country.

962
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: That is there. Yeah, that idea is there, but that's

963
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,199
a historic that's a historical church position.

964
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: That's pretty universal in the church fathers. Yeah.

965
00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: Interesting, that's why the premiumage discussed.

966
00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:32,119
Speaker 2: Not every church mother does discuss it.

967
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 1: But no, no, yeah, I understand that. But that's just

968
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,679
interesting that it is there, and that would be I mean,

969
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,320
if you look at what Jesus says, you will not

970
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,679
see me again until you say, bless us he comes

971
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:42,760
in the name of the Lord when you're speaking to Jerusalem,

972
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,880
Matthew twenty three, would you tie that in with that

973
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:45,519
as well?

974
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:51,039
Speaker 2: It's possible. I mean, I think you there's a possibility

975
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:52,719
of some of these passages.

976
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,119
Speaker 1: You know, like.

977
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,679
Speaker 3: If another comes in his own name him, you will

978
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,719
receive right, suggesting that the Jews would only believe in

979
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:05,599
a Antichrist who was Jewish, right, So there's there's possibility

980
00:53:05,639 --> 00:53:09,159
of some of these texts suggesting aschatological fulfillment as well.

981
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:16,599
But just simply put, that's the theological perspective. However, the

982
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,519
reality of the situation right now, the Orthodox Church owns

983
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,880
it's like the third largest landowner I think in Israel.

984
00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:28,320
So the present situation is very difficult, complex and nuanced

985
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,239
because you have the Jerusalem Patriarchate, the Orthodox Church, you

986
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,760
have you know, the Greeks have a section of the

987
00:53:36,119 --> 00:53:40,000
Holy Sepulcure, and the you know, Coptics have a section,

988
00:53:40,079 --> 00:53:42,400
the Romancaloics have a section, and so it's kind of

989
00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:46,239
like there's difficulty there. And then you have Palestinian Orthodox

990
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,920
Christians as well that make up a minority of Palestine.

991
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,280
So the present state of Israel is nuance because the

992
00:53:53,119 --> 00:53:56,519
church that exists in Jerusalem and in Israel has to

993
00:53:56,599 --> 00:53:59,480
be very careful about how it goes.

994
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: About, you know, not offending the Israeli government.

995
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 1: Have you heard about the Radi government making it like

996
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,400
I'm not sure if they're doing they're taking back land

997
00:54:08,599 --> 00:54:10,119
or releasing it back to the church.

998
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: I heard I think one one church, one of the

999
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,360
big famous church properties. I forget which one it was, though,

1000
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:18,559
but I did hear that recently.

1001
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you been to the Old Time?

1002
00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 2: I think they bomb like they bombed a couple of

1003
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,760
the big the old you know, Orthodox churches too.

1004
00:54:25,159 --> 00:54:29,559
Speaker 1: Have you been to the Old City? No, would you

1005
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:30,800
like to come to give me a quote?

1006
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: Douglas Murray actually been that. I have not actually been

1007
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:38,559
the Can you talk about it been?

1008
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: The That's how arguments is just absolutely futile throughout. It's ridiculous, dude, man,

1009
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,400
Like that is that mogument made no sense. You can't

1010
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,039
talk about it. I mean, he's talked about heats a

1011
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:50,880
place that he hasn't been to.

1012
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,599
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous, all right, So we can't never talk about

1013
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:55,920
anything in the past like we can't go to the past.

1014
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,079
Speaker 1: I mean I would like to. I would like to

1015
00:54:58,519 --> 00:55:02,920
invite you to to Israel. I'd like to offer to

1016
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,320
take you there been to Old City next year if

1017
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,639
you ever want to come, would you like to?

1018
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 3: I think you know my priest has talked, my priest

1019
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,360
has done pilgrimage.

1020
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:14,679
Speaker 2: Is there.

1021
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 3: We did a pilgrimage last year in Italy. We did

1022
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,800
an Orthodox Italy pilgrimage. We went to all the old

1023
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,559
priest schism you know sites in Italy, and he's talked

1024
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:27,119
about a Jerusalem as well.

1025
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,199
Speaker 2: But of course we thought that, you know, now is

1026
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:31,280
probably not the best time. But you know, I appreciate that.

1027
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't coach on the spot. You're coming, yes or no?

1028
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:34,840
Twenty twenty six.

1029
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: Again, if I went, I would probably go with my

1030
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:42,239
priest doing progrimage. I appreciate the offer. But yeah, if

1031
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:43,960
you ever do come to the US, we can definitely

1032
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:44,320
hang out.

1033
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:46,559
Speaker 1: Oh brother, Yeah, I'd let you know. I've got a

1034
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:48,920
few friends there now, just with all the Instagram stuff

1035
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,800
that everyone's asking to come over, me to come over,

1036
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:57,800
But I'm trying to plan for next year. But Israel.

1037
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,639
I went there in six weeks before the war. Dude,

1038
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:03,880
there's something about the place. I have to tell you

1039
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,280
something happened to me there that you mean you told

1040
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:09,760
me last time that you know you believe in the

1041
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,119
gifts of the spirit and the church's position. I don't

1042
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,239
you know, I actually didn't know about that in terms

1043
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,960
terms of miracles and things like that.

1044
00:56:19,639 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 2: Man.

1045
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:25,679
Speaker 1: I went to Capernaum and I went to the city

1046
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:27,199
with my wife and the kids there and it was

1047
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:32,400
a really really hot day. And as we're walking, I

1048
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,880
said to my wife, I was like, it's way too

1049
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,840
off for the kids. You know, kids life a by

1050
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,360
that stage. They were like, what four and seven? And

1051
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,559
so let's get back to the car. As we're walking

1052
00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:44,480
to the car, on the water about one hundred and

1053
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,480
fifty meters out there, you know, when a fish swim

1054
00:56:48,599 --> 00:56:51,159
close to the water, it moves the water right like

1055
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,239
it bubbles up the water. I saw this moving on

1056
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,960
the water about one hundred and fifty meters out and

1057
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:03,199
I saw a gold cloud, a gold mist moving the

1058
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,360
water like this, back and forth, back and forth. And

1059
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,760
I'm looking at it, going I'm severely dehydrated, right, I

1060
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,800
need to get some water. I look up at the sky,

1061
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,119
I think it's a trick of the light. My wife

1062
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,000
ends up seeing it as well, and it just rushed

1063
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:21,000
towards us and moved the water. And no, I mean,

1064
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:23,559
I'm a skeptic, but like really, I came into this

1065
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:26,880
faith as a skeptic. You know, I try to reason

1066
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,800
my way there, and I realized the failings of doing

1067
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,719
that as well. But I don't take things at face value.

1068
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,639
We saw this crazy thing that happened to us, and

1069
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:38,400
it was one of the most mystical, amazing experiences. This

1070
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:41,079
myst and gold cloud just came right through us and

1071
00:57:41,199 --> 00:57:44,960
it was like a it was just like an unbelievable

1072
00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:47,760
moment in prayer. It was just beautiful. It was amazing.

1073
00:57:48,119 --> 00:57:51,159
Still trying to reconcile what exactly happened, but there is

1074
00:57:51,239 --> 00:57:54,960
something special about the place, and you know, it's funny

1075
00:57:55,079 --> 00:58:01,239
my sense going there. My support of Israel, I mean

1076
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,320
the political Israel, and much of it would come to

1077
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,480
the idea what I wouldn't want Israel to fall under

1078
00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:08,920
ISLAMI cans like, I just wouldn't want it to fall

1079
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,480
under where I can see that. You know, I'm not

1080
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:14,480
sure if we'll be able to visit all these places.

1081
00:58:14,559 --> 00:58:16,480
I'm not sure if that's a I haven't really reconciled

1082
00:58:16,519 --> 00:58:20,239
that idea in my head completely. But I don't look

1083
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,639
at the support of the political state of Israel from

1084
00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:27,199
a I guess a biblical perspective per se, but the

1085
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,679
idea of an archaeological perspective, just the area, the freedom

1086
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,320
to go visit and all these places. I want to

1087
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,159
protect that because there's something something amazing about that place.

1088
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,400
And apparently now they've just got full access to Mount Hermon.

1089
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,960
It's now full Israel's so you can actually go to

1090
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:50,360
the top now and above cesarea PHILIPI and all that.

1091
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:56,239
I reckon that's where the transfiguration happened. Well, it's interesting

1092
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,559
to hear about that whole thing. Sorry, man, I digress

1093
00:58:58,639 --> 00:59:00,199
a little bit. It must be something with my with that.

1094
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I agree with you that, you know, it's

1095
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,639
a complex situation. I'm not necessarily.

1096
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,679
Speaker 3: You know, there's not any easy answer to any of

1097
00:59:08,719 --> 00:59:10,559
the situations in the Middle East. I just diod a

1098
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:14,280
big long lecture on the whole history of CIA operations

1099
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,039
in the Middle East, with Lebanon and Syria and Jordan

1100
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:20,800
and Egypt, and uh, you know, I've read a lot

1101
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,639
on the modern geopolitical stuff. And uh, you know, a

1102
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:25,360
lot of the Jews that are there today, you know,

1103
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:30,039
they're there a few generations in it's not their fault

1104
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,280
that the British Mandate moved Jews to Palestine.

1105
00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:34,159
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

1106
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,599
Speaker 3: So it's a very complex, nuanced situation. And uh no,

1107
00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:42,159
of course I would not prefer want an Islamic state

1108
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,079
there or something like that.

1109
00:59:43,119 --> 00:59:46,199
Speaker 1: That'd be terrible at least. I mean, it's what, you know,

1110
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,760
this whole what blew me away about the place. There's

1111
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,519
like two million Muslims that live there, most of its secular,

1112
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,800
huge LGBTQ population, especially in Tel Aviv. Then they're just

1113
00:59:57,079 --> 00:59:59,239
it's like the Las Vegas Man of the Middle East.

1114
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,440
You know, in many they're not religious at all. I

1115
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:04,239
mean in the North there are you got some of

1116
01:00:04,239 --> 01:00:07,559
the Orthodox, you know, Jews who aren't fan of Christians

1117
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:12,000
in many ways. But anyway, it's a fascinating place. I mean,

1118
01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:15,519
I think it's definitely something that every Christian should go

1119
01:00:15,599 --> 01:00:16,119
and check out.

1120
01:00:16,239 --> 01:00:18,079
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I'd love to go sometimes.

1121
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well We've gone through a bit here and

1122
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:26,480
I think it's quite interesting to hear the Orthodox view

1123
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,280
on eschatology so much information to digest here, and I'm

1124
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,920
going to leave these all in the descriptions and links below.

1125
01:00:34,039 --> 01:00:36,880
But also the idea of what the Orthodox position is

1126
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,480
on the I guess you could say the ethnic Jewish

1127
01:00:41,719 --> 01:00:45,599
position the future and a future revival, and the early

1128
01:00:45,719 --> 01:00:49,079
Church father's reference of that. That's super intriguing and super

1129
01:00:49,159 --> 01:00:51,880
interesting because the reason I brought it up was there

1130
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:56,559
was this debate with doctor Michael Brown, Messianic jew scholar,

1131
01:00:56,679 --> 01:00:59,079
and he did this debate with this guy Gabriel Pinocchio

1132
01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:03,719
and Ruslan and in he really accused him of this

1133
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,320
Jewel Covenant theology idea, and Michael Brown saying, I'm not

1134
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,840
only through Jesus only salvation through Jews. I don't believe

1135
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,440
that there's but he's just talking about this revolal election

1136
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:18,480
right for the Jewish people, And that's what you're really

1137
01:01:18,519 --> 01:01:21,559
speaking into. Given clarity, I thought it was really slack

1138
01:01:21,639 --> 01:01:23,400
what he did, you know, smash him with this Jewell

1139
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,360
Covenant idea. But it's good interesting here that's the historic

1140
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:27,719
position as well.

1141
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it's pretty clear universally in the

1142
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,079
Church Fathers. Every time I've seen this reference, whether it's

1143
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:36,920
Western or Eastern Church fathers say for the first thousand years,

1144
01:01:37,599 --> 01:01:42,039
they always continue to view Jews as Jews. Right, Jews

1145
01:01:42,079 --> 01:01:44,719
don't cease to exist or cease to be Jews. Even

1146
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,360
when you get in the fourth and fifth century, the

1147
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,320
rise of Rabbinic Judaism.

1148
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 2: It's still Jews. There's still there's still.

1149
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 3: Judaic proponents and believers, And for there to be a

1150
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:56,920
future conversion of the.

1151
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,719
Speaker 2: Jews, there would still have to be Jews. So yeah,

1152
01:01:59,719 --> 01:02:01,039
I think it's a kind of a silly posi.

1153
01:02:01,119 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 3: But I also believe too that God's providential preservation of

1154
01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:10,440
the Jewish people regardless of the secular nation state of Israel. Like,

1155
01:02:10,519 --> 01:02:13,000
the preservation of that people group is it's self a

1156
01:02:13,119 --> 01:02:15,880
testament to the reality of the Bible, you know what

1157
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,679
I mean, Just aside from the issue of future conversion, Like,

1158
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:23,400
the continued existence of that people group is a testament

1159
01:02:23,559 --> 01:02:26,559
to the reality of the Torah and the prophets.

1160
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:29,519
Speaker 1: Right, that's a great point.

1161
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 3: And then at the end of you know, whenever that

1162
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:34,679
conversion is or however that happens, I don't know. But yeah,

1163
01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:38,000
there's a little book that's that covers us from the

1164
01:02:38,079 --> 01:02:41,480
Orthodox you It's called Apostacy in Antichrist, and the book begins.

1165
01:02:41,519 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: It's a little like fifty page book.

1166
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:47,199
Speaker 3: The book begins with preterism and it just basically goes

1167
01:02:47,239 --> 01:02:49,199
through citing all the church fathers and saints.

1168
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,599
Speaker 1: I want to put that in the description as well.

1169
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,519
And Antichrist, Apostasy and Antichrist and all this stuff is

1170
01:02:55,559 --> 01:02:57,280
on Amazon for people to purchase.

1171
01:02:59,159 --> 01:02:59,679
Speaker 2: All of them.

1172
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:02,079
Speaker 3: The last one you might have to buy from the monastery.

1173
01:03:02,119 --> 01:03:05,159
It's put out by Jordanville Monastery. Okay, it may be

1174
01:03:05,239 --> 01:03:06,800
on Amazon. I haven't looked in a while, but it

1175
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:07,519
is available.

1176
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, we've covered a lot today, man, and it's

1177
01:03:11,559 --> 01:03:14,039
been a thoroughly enjoyable episode, and I think a lot

1178
01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:17,280
for people to digest. What I really like about doing

1179
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:22,440
these podcasts with you is you really eliminate a lot

1180
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,840
of misconceptions in the historic position and what people's perception

1181
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,159
of Orthodox he is. You're making it increasingly more difficult

1182
01:03:30,199 --> 01:03:32,440
for me to stay within the Protestant tradition. I must

1183
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:37,079
tell you that I'm actually I.

1184
01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:40,599
Speaker 3: Don't you might have to buy that from Jordanville Monastery

1185
01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:43,880
directly because it looks like it's not presently for sale.

1186
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,880
But I do think the last time I looked like

1187
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,360
if you go to Jordan mil Monastery, it's still there.

1188
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, cool, cool.

1189
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 2: But I'm listening to you. I appreciate it. I appreciate

1190
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:52,760
your comments there.

1191
01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:57,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's good. I'm looking. I told you before.

1192
01:03:57,599 --> 01:03:59,639
I'm looking way to do my master's next and my

1193
01:04:00,039 --> 01:04:03,199
Greek Orthodox priest in Townsville. You've got the shits at

1194
01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:07,719
me for studying at a Protestant university. It's mathiew mathiea.

1195
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:14,079
We have Greek Orthodox University in Brisbane, sant Andrews. What

1196
01:04:14,199 --> 01:04:14,840
are you doing?

1197
01:04:17,239 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: So?

1198
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I'd love to talk to you about

1199
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:27,199
this idea of you know, in another episode about if

1200
01:04:27,239 --> 01:04:29,639
the spirit of God is moving in the Protestant tradition

1201
01:04:30,079 --> 01:04:33,000
and what's happening in the culture. That's a total another episode.

1202
01:04:33,199 --> 01:04:35,639
Love to have your take on that, just to hear,

1203
01:04:36,079 --> 01:04:40,239
to see, you know, to explore a couple ideas there.

1204
01:04:40,519 --> 01:04:43,480
But regardless of that, thank you so much for coming

1205
01:04:43,559 --> 01:04:46,840
on providing a lot of clarity and insight. And I

1206
01:04:47,079 --> 01:04:50,880
a guys if you I mean in many ways, if

1207
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,199
you follow me on YouTube, forget about me because I'm

1208
01:04:53,519 --> 01:04:58,400
small there you're obviously following Jay on YouTube but on Instagram. Guys,

1209
01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:01,480
if you're watching this, just give it a give it

1210
01:05:01,519 --> 01:05:02,719
a follow, give a click. You're going to find a

1211
01:05:02,719 --> 01:05:04,840
lot of interesting things, a lot of comedy, a lot

1212
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:09,280
of interesting things about political, religious. It's a it's a

1213
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,920
whole broad spectrum page for people to check out, and

1214
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:14,960
it's worth giving it a follow. Anyway, brother, thank you

1215
01:05:15,039 --> 01:05:18,679
so much for for coming on today. Really appreciated.

1216
01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:22,199
Speaker 3: I got four books now. My fourth book is about

1217
01:05:22,239 --> 01:05:24,079
to come out in a couple of months, and you

1218
01:05:24,119 --> 01:05:26,039
can use the pre orders on my website so you

1219
01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:28,039
can get Est Hollywood one, two and three. I got

1220
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:29,800
a philosophy book, and then I got a read book,

1221
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:33,639
which is like all of my theological apologetic essays, so

1222
01:05:33,719 --> 01:05:34,920
you can get those at my website.

1223
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: You don't want to get that. I don't even know

1224
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,239
that you had that. That's mad. We'll definitely put those in.

1225
01:05:40,119 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: It's a six hundred page book.

1226
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: So that's awesome. Okay, Yeah, because I'll tell you what.

1227
01:05:45,199 --> 01:05:47,320
I did a debate with that Gabriel Pinocchio the other

1228
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,599
the other day, and and you came up into discussion

1229
01:05:51,639 --> 01:05:54,400
and the thing I was like, Yeah, that's the one

1230
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:59,519
guy that like seems to have philosophy and theology such

1231
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:03,119
a very well grasp where you debate with the transidental

1232
01:06:03,239 --> 01:06:07,000
argument and theology and history, you seem to merge that together,

1233
01:06:07,239 --> 01:06:09,679
which obviously I'd like to talk about that another time.

1234
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,400
And all the time you've invested in study, which would

1235
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:13,159
be really really cool.

1236
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,039
Speaker 2: Anyway, Gabriel, who's he? What's he doing?

1237
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,159
Speaker 1: Finocchio bro is a bit of a douche, to be

1238
01:06:19,239 --> 01:06:22,000
honest with you. And I know the position I was

1239
01:06:22,079 --> 01:06:25,760
arguing for in that debate you wouldn't agree with, But

1240
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,280
I was coming from a perspective of which is about

1241
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:34,199
females in ministry and trying to reconcole Paul's female co

1242
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,920
workers and how to reconcile that with first timpathy to

1243
01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:43,440
mint Grinthian's fourteen and all these positions. And we did

1244
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,559
a debate in the idea of women keeping silent in

1245
01:06:45,639 --> 01:06:49,800
the church, and he he basically agreed that they can

1246
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,519
speak in the church, but then he became a debate

1247
01:06:52,559 --> 01:06:54,719
about submission, so he totally changed it, put it on

1248
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,639
its head. So anyway, I mean, it was my first

1249
01:06:57,679 --> 01:07:00,639
public debate, is like a Kalamnist guy or what no, no, no,

1250
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,840
he's well, he this is the other thing. He just

1251
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:08,480
changed between Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism. He just picks and

1252
01:07:08,599 --> 01:07:13,039
identifies a word of a argument. It was so yeah,

1253
01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:15,159
it was a very good interesting learning curve for me.

1254
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:20,679
But nonetheless it was it was an interesting, interesting topic

1255
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:27,559
we did on Jake's channel, you know, Jake Rattlesnack TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1256
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,400
so yeah it was on there. But anyway, God bless

1257
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,360
you brother, thank you so much for coming on. And

1258
01:07:32,639 --> 01:07:33,840
I'm going to make a couple of clips of this

1259
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,559
and tag him into It'll be great.