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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where

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we left off with the OIG interview with Tovin. Noel. Question,

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did any of the supervisors or staff talk with you

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about the incident? Noel? No question? Aside from that one

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when Lieutenant redacted, Noel, lieutenant asked me question, Okay, So

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I just want to again when I ask you these questions,

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just make sure we say, like, aside from this or that,

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So any other things aside from that instance where they

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asked you what happened and you said you don't recall

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saying we didn't do the three am and five am rounds,

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but you do recall Thomas saying it wasn't her fault. Noel, Yeah. Question,

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we didn't do the rounds, Noel, Yeah. Question any other

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questions other than that, Noel. They asked me to go

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downstairs to the lieutenant's office and then I was just

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standing down there. Question, but no one spoke with you, Noel,

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No question. Did anyone even ask why you were down

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there or how you were? Noel? Oh? The psychologist asked

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me how I was? Question? Okay, So, but did she

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ask you about the information. Question. No, they didn't ask

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anything about that question. It was just about your mental

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well being. Noel. Yeah. Question. What time did you stay

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at the institution until on August tenth? Noel. I left

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at like around eight redacted, A little bit after your shift, Noel. Yeah.

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Question You didn't have to stick around for anything else, Noel.

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No question. Did you have to sign any paperwork? Noel?

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No question. You were left right around the end of

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your shift. Did they tell you to leave? Noel, My

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shift was over, They said I could go. Question. I

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just mean, like, did they instruct you to go home?

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You just had a traumatic experience or it's just your

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shift was ended and you left. Noel, My shift was ended,

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and I asked if I can go now, and they

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said go. Question Okay, And who was it that said

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you can go? Noel? The lieutenant question? Do you remember

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which lieutenant? Noel? Redacted? Question redacted not redacted, Noel, not redacted?

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Question okay, redacted. But you didn't have any other conversations

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with redacted? Noel? No question. Okay. Did you ever handle

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or touch Epstein's paperwork, Epstein's file or paperwork prior to

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your departure from mcc on August tenth. Noel, no question.

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So in that time from you said that you were

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by yourself for twenty minutes, did you ever go near

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his file? Noel. I don't even know where the file is,

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no question. All right. Do you know if they keep

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files on inmates? I think they're called Mike. What is

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it two ninety two or something like that, Noel, no question.

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Do you know what's kept in a two ninety two Noel,

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No question. Like when you feed an inmate or when

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you give them well, oh, that's like when you log

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into and you're okay. Question is there also a paperwork

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that follows that or is it just logging into the

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BOP system? Noel, that's logging into the system. Question. Okay,

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when you during the time that you were on your

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shift at all on August tenth, did you ever log

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into that system? Noel? No question. So you never had

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to enter then you fed them, or that you went

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into she got he gets cut off by Noel, No question,

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And you checked on them or anything like that, Noel,

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No question. When would that be done? Noel at the

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earlier part of the day or when you feed questions

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or around that time? Noel? After four question after four am, Noel,

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no four pm. Question four pm. So when you say

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the earlier part of the day, you mean the later

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part of the day, Noel. No, Like when my shift

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starts at four, after you feed, that's the time I

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see like the law ug in to say, okay, they've

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been fed. But I've never really one day, I actually

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like was in there because redacted was showing me how

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to do it. But I don't necessarily do that. Somebody

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else will do it. Question And what was he showing

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you how to do Noel? Had to log it? Question?

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So what is it that you're supposed to log, you know,

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in the system? Noel, I vaguely remember, because I don't

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did it. He only showed me that one time. I

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think you're supposed to like log off or log if

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they showered, log if they're feeding. And I don't know

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if you give out stuff, I guess I don't know. Question,

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But you don't you're not aware of the actual paper file, Noel.

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No question. Where those things are monitored or attract Noel,

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no question. And you never did that for any inmate, Noel,

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no question. You never filled out paperwork or kept files

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for inmates Noel no never question. So obviously you never

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handled or touched epstein paperwork Noel, never question or his file.

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Did you ever remove any of Epstein's paperwork from his file? Noel,

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no question. Did you ever remove or destroy any of

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Epstein's paperwork? Noel, no question. Did you ever remove or

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destroy that's a repetitive question. Did you ever remove or

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destroy any signs related to Epstein, to include signs that

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said he was required to have a cellmate? Noel, no question.

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Did you access any BOP database such as bop ware

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Centry true view after Epstein was discovered on August tenth,

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twenty nineteen, Noel, no question. Did you report what was

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the last time you reported to work on August tenth? Noel, Yeah. Question.

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Were you placed on administrative leave? Noel, Yeah. Question by whom? Noel,

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I don't know. I got a phone call saying that

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I was placed on administrative leave, but I don't remember

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by who. And then I got the letter. Question did

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you receive an explanation verbally? Noel, no question. Know. So

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the person told you that you were on administrative leave.

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That was the extent of the conversation, Noel. And then

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I said, so when do I come back? And they

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was like you'll get a call like when or if

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you're supposed to come back? Question okay, and what did

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that administrative leave change to a different type of leave? Noel,

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suspended without pay? Question indefinite suspension? Was that? It is

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that what you're on right now? Noel? Yeah? Question okay.

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Did you communicate with Michael Thomas after Epstein's body was discovered? Noel,

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no question. Did you communicate? He gets cut off by Noel.

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We communicated never because we was not allowed to communicate.

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Question I'm talking about right after the body was discovered.

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People respond, and then did you communicate? You talked about

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the one instance outside of the elevator Noel, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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but no question. But you guys didn't actually converse. You

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are just talking to the lieutenant Noel. Right. Question and

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at no point, also, did you ever converse Noel, no question.

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Did you guys talk somewhere else? Noel? No question? Since then,

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like outside of work, Noell, no question. You don't recall

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any time. So if he says that you guys talked

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it up, you don't remember that. Noel. We never spoke

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until we had a union meeting. Question. That's what I'm

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asking ever question? Oh, never spoke until the union meeting.

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That was just like two weeks ago. But we never

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ever spoke. Question. That's kind of like when I say ever,

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that means ever anytime from then until this moment, Noel,

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From until the union meeting, we never spoke. Question. All right,

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So what was discussed at the union meeting? Noel? That

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we're going to have an investigation and the union is

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there for us, they're supporting us, stuff like that question.

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But did you discuss this with Thomas? Noel? What question

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the investigation? Noel, no question. Did you ever discuss like

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what you were going to tell us Noel, no question,

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or what you were going to say during the interview, Noel,

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no question. So what did your communication Entel, Noel with Thomas.

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It wasn't with Thomas, but he was present. So basically,

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the union was saying, you know, they're fighting for us,

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they're there for us, they're supporting us. You know. That

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was along the line, we're going to have to meet

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with you guys to be investigated. Just tell the truth.

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That was along the line. Question Okay, Noel, But my

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conversation wasn't directly with Thomas. We were both being told. Question, So,

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aside from the Union and with that interaction with Thomas,

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was anybody else that you discussed the Epstein incident with

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since August tenth? Noel no question. No, aside from your attorneys?

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Question more or less? Question, is there anything else you

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want to add to anything we've talked about being in

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And just keep in mind that it's under oath what

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you have just said. The Union just said tell the truth.

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The way that you get in trouble from this point

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forward is basically if you don't tell the truth. You know,

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anything that we need to clarify, anything that you can

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think about, like maybe I should provide some additional background

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information regarding that Foyd. No, I can't think of anything. Question. Okay,

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so everything's good because I just want to pass it

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over to see if there's anything the agent redacted wants

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to ask. Question you mentioned there was an office in

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the shoe for the lieutenant Noel, Yeah. Question where is

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that located? Noel upstairs outside of the door for ten South.

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Question who normally sits there? Noel the lieutenant. Question who

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would that be? Noel? Lieutenant redacted? Question? Have you ever

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been in that office? Noel? No question? Do you know

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anyone else that utilizes that office? Noel, No question, after

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the incident happened? Did you after Epstein was removed? Did

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you see any lieutenants at the MCC? Noel, did I

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see any lieutenants? Question? Yeah? Which lieutenants did you see

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at the MCC? Noel? Lieutenant redacted? But who was there? Question? Yeah?

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Whoever's present? Did you actually see Noel Lieutenant redacted? Lieutenant redacted?

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Lieutenant redacted was getting off, but she came like to

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help feed? Question? She came back to help feed? Noel? Yeah.

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Question did you have a conversation with her? Noel Lieutenant redacted? Question? Yeah, Noel,

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no question, How did you know she came back to

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help feed? Noel? I was there? Question? And where was she? Noel?

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Where was she when? Question? When you were leaving? Where

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was she Noel in the shoe? Question? Okay, she was

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in the shoe, physically in the shoe, Noel, helping feed question? Okay?

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And what time are we talking about a different investigator

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pipes in? This is after the incident question? Oh, okay, investigator,

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this is for clarification purposes. Noel, okay, question, I know

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you mentioned this before. I'm just going to clarify it.

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A couple of questions. Did you ever assist any inmates

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with making phone calls? Noel? No question. Do you know

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that if an inmate wanted to make a phone call,

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how would they go about it? Question or answer? Noel,

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they use their pin number. Question is every inmate assign one? Noel? Yeah.

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Question can they call anybody they wanted to? Noel, I

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don't know. Question is there a restriction on certain people

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that they're not allowed to call? Noel, I don't know.

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Question Okay, did you know that inmate calls are monitored? Noel? Yeah.

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Question do you know the difference between a monitored line

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and the legal line? So there was one line that's

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used to make legal phone calls that's just for attorneys. Noel? Okay,

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So those that line is not monitored Noel. Oh. Question

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But the other line is any calls that they make

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is recorded? Noel? Okay. But I don't know where, like

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which line is which? But I'm aware that there's a

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recorded line and the other line, but I don't know

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which line is which or where the legal line is. Question. Okay,

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you said it was not weird that Epstein was left

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alone with his phone has that happened before, Noel, where

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an inmate is in the tier using the phone? Yeah?

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Question to your recollection, which other inmates were allowed to

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make phone calls like that? Noel, I don't have a name.

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But it's not because they're allowed to make a phone

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call like that. It's only if where their cell is

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located the jack's not working. So it's not like we

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put inmates in the shower to have private phone calls.

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It's just if that's where your cell is at the

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jack's not working. They put you because they can't put

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you with another it's another inmate's room, and they can't

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leave you out in the open, so they place you

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over there because the jack is closest to make the

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phone call. Question, so you know who could set up

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a call like that? Can anyone, any CEO just plug

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it in or does it have to be a specific

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person who plugs it in? Noel, I don't know if

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any CEO could just plug it in. I don't know.

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Question you don't know. Would you happen to know if

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Epstein had a pac and pen assigned to him? Noel.

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I would think he would, but I don't know for sure.

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Question do you recall that night when Redacted set up

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the phone call, did he tell you who Epstein was

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supposed to be speaking to Noel? No question, That's all

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I have redacted. And then the two final follow ups

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just because we discussed it and I kind of gave

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it to you from memory. But this is special Housing

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Unit post orders regarding cell rotations and sell searches. It

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just quickly says all Shoe staff are expected to conduct

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searches of the Special Housing Unit. The morning watch officers

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will conduct searches of the common areas and document their

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findings in the search section of the True Scrub program.

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The day watch officers will conduct a search of every

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inmate cell who attends recreation. The evening watch off officer

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will conduct a minimum of five self searches during their shift.

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And that's what I was just trying to get indiscernible,

234
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,840
just to make sure that that's just if you want

235
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,360
to just initial a date. And also when I do

236
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,080
need to clarify when I said that getting in trouble

237
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,159
thing I was talking about legally when I said about

238
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being truthful, redacted, So these things that you initialed, can

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00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,039
you date them also? Because the first set doesn't have

240
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,399
a date on them. There's no dates next to our

241
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,240
initials on there. Question do you care if it has

242
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,799
a date? I don't want her to have to go

243
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,840
through everything again. She just wrote her initials. Foy. Yeah,

244
00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:42,039
it doesn't matter, especially if we're only meeting one time. Question. Okay, sure,

245
00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:44,559
so just next to where you wrote your initials, do

246
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,440
you mind just dating? I don't know if there's a

247
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reason to provide this here. Just read after that and

248
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,120
she's done. Question were you aware maybe subsequently that redacted

249
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wrote a memo pretty much stating that he was notified.

250
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,519
He was notified at one fifty p that inmate Reyis

251
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,080
was not coming back to MCC and he actually notified

252
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,960
officer redacted, sos redacted an officer redacted that inmate needed

253
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,159
that a cellmate needed to be assigned to Epstein. Noel,

254
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,759
I'm not aware of that. Question. Did you ever get

255
00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:19,399
instructions like that? Noel? No question. When you came on shift,

256
00:15:19,639 --> 00:15:22,600
were there any instructions that came down about going in

257
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,519
and removing inmate reyis belongings from his cell Noel, No question.

258
00:15:27,759 --> 00:15:31,000
If an inmate's removed, let's say someone was going to WAB,

259
00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:34,240
do you know what that is? Noel. Yeah. Question with

260
00:15:34,279 --> 00:15:38,519
all belongings, Noel, belongings. Question if an inmate, let's say,

261
00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:41,039
had to go to court and it was notified that

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the inmate is not coming back and was being removed

263
00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:46,879
by WEB, does an officer in the shoe have to

264
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,080
go in and remove all the belongings? Noel. I don't know,

265
00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:54,440
because only know if the regular unit, when they're going WEB,

266
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:59,440
they bring their stuff. Question, they don't bring their stuff?

267
00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:03,600
They do? Question if they were, but that if that person,

268
00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:06,000
let's say that in May, it wasn't notified that they're

269
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000
not coming back. Noel. Oh, if it wasn't, then yeah,

270
00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:13,000
the officer would go in and take it out. Question.

271
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:14,960
And there was no instruction for you guys to go

272
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,039
and remove it Noel, no question. And I may have

273
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,080
just missed this, but do you not recall anyone coming

274
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,559
in and retrieving Ray's belongings? Noel, No question. No. And

275
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,159
would that have happened during your shift before twelve? Noel,

276
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,159
I don't know. Question if it was. You just don't

277
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,159
know anything about Reyes leaving Noel, I don't know. Question. Yeah,

278
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,879
I just gave them to her. Anything else before we

279
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,240
end this so that hopefully this will be a one

280
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,360
and done question. Nothing else that we should talk about

281
00:16:46,559 --> 00:16:49,519
that we missed that we can handle now rather than

282
00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:52,720
having to circle back. Foy, Uh, nothing I can think

283
00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:56,960
of off the top of my head. Question. We're trying

284
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,759
to cover a lot, so Foy. Yeah, I'm at the end.

285
00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:02,840
Question Yep from the union, is there anything that you

286
00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:06,960
can think of that should be discussing Union Rep? If

287
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,400
OIG really wants to know what led up to the

288
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,880
death of mister Epstein, I think that there needs to

289
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,440
be a thorough investigation of the Metropolitan Correctional Center and

290
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,920
its pitfalls. I'll just, you know, kind of leave it

291
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,279
at that, And I'm sure you're going a little bit

292
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,359
of insight into what the MCC is not just staffing,

293
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,839
but conditions for inmates as well. It failed a new employee. Yes,

294
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,559
there are some things that she absolutely should be taking

295
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:36,839
responsibility for, but what led up to the unfortunate death

296
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,319
of mister Epstein wasn't just August ninth and August tenth

297
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,480
question referring to the fact that she was trained on

298
00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:48,200
people not conducting rounds and counts, Union Rep. It's a

299
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,559
cultural issue at MCC. New York, falsifying of documents to

300
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:56,519
pass program reviews, Inadequate training of employees. Employees may go

301
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,599
through and I have training, but most of the training

302
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,359
is three weeks or so. Most of the time you'll

303
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,119
find yourself sitting down in the training center, I believe,

304
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,519
because they don't have someone to actually train you, but

305
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,119
they'll tell you sign the training sheets. So if something

306
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,759
like this comes up, it implies that the employee received

307
00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:17,640
the training when actually I was present to receive the training,

308
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,039
but nobody taught me. The same thing is, you know,

309
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,160
for annual refresher training. There's a cultural issue at the MCC.

310
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,319
Is it agency wide? I don't know. I've only been

311
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,880
at MCC New York, but there are some pitfalls. There

312
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,519
have been inmates that prior to mister Epstein and since

313
00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,599
mister Epstein, and I believe the inadequate managing of the

314
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,480
build up plays a big role in those desks, assaults

315
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,200
of staff and inmates. And you, guys, I guarantee you've

316
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,480
seen it. I'm sure there's something you've seen that you're like, Wow,

317
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,559
that's a little bit crazy, that just seems very egregious.

318
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,119
It's because it's not being run the correct way. It's

319
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,920
failing staff and inmates every day. Question. Well, thank you

320
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,119
for that. On that note, I know we talked to

321
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,240
you and how you observed other staff members pretty much

322
00:19:01,279 --> 00:19:03,880
conducting the round sheets the way they did, as well

323
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,119
as a supervisor who told you to sign the training

324
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,119
that you never actually attended. Can you think of anything

325
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,359
else that you were asked to do like that from

326
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,799
anyone or observed anyone else as like training or an

327
00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:20,039
experience that was now that you're thinking back on it wrong, Noel. No,

328
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,359
I mean I haven't really been there that long, so

329
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,119
the only thing I could recall was Lieutenant redacted was, oh,

330
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,200
I think when I was on my probation every year,

331
00:19:29,519 --> 00:19:31,599
like I was supposed to get reviewed like every quarter

332
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,160
like to get get off probation. I've only got it

333
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,759
one time. I think it's supposed to be done three times.

334
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,640
I've only got it one time. Question And where you

335
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,000
asked to sign on a quarterly basis that you receive

336
00:19:43,079 --> 00:19:45,759
the evaluation, Noel, I know I signed it one time

337
00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:48,400
that I got it, but I never got the other two.

338
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,079
Question But you didn't actually ask to sign something, Noel. No,

339
00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:55,799
no one asked me to sign anything, question. Is there

340
00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:58,359
an instance that you can think of that you needed

341
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,799
to sign for something that you thought, but oh, I

342
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:03,640
shouldn't sign for that. I didn't take this training, I

343
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,319
didn't conduct these rounds. Is there something else like that

344
00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:09,319
that you can think of that's happened while you were

345
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,039
at the mcc Noel. I mean, like, for example, like

346
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,680
I said, in IF training, there's a roster with a

347
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,200
whole bunch of stuff that we're signing next to. But

348
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,000
let's like say, Lieutenant so and so was supposed to

349
00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:24,240
teach that class and they didn't show up. But I

350
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:27,119
already signed that I received it, but I didn't get

351
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,279
the actual training. So I'm signing that I'm present and

352
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:32,759
I'm here for the training, but I didn't actually get it.

353
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,599
So you're showing up for the training and they're actually

354
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,720
not conducting it, and they're certifying that they're conducting the training. Noel. Yeah,

355
00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:42,640
there were for a couple of training that we didn't

356
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,240
get because there was nobody there to teach the class.

357
00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:51,519
Question and they certified that they actually did it. Noel. Yeah,

358
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,559
I just remember that I was in if they would

359
00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:57,599
tell me stuff, but I never walked. You're supposed to

360
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,200
get a tour of the building. For when when you

361
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,720
sit in training and in the shoe blah blah blah,

362
00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:05,240
you have a visual. They never even did that, like

363
00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:08,720
they would explain like when you say downrange, you have

364
00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:11,559
to just imagine what's downrange because I've never been in

365
00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:15,480
the jail and I didn't know. I'm saying that to say,

366
00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:18,680
like training is not you guys probably look at oh

367
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,119
I signed, or you're saying this training or that she

368
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,599
should know this, but I don't actually necessarily have to

369
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,359
know it because it wasn't like taught and if I

370
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,920
kind of learn as you go along. That's why I said,

371
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,359
like it's wrong, but I tried to mimic or follow

372
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,400
what I see other people do. And yes, I've exercised

373
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,559
poor judgment on things, but sometimes you ask people and

374
00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:41,680
they tell you the wrong thing. That's mcc So even

375
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,960
if I don't know and I call and say, hey,

376
00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:46,640
how do you do this, they'd be like, oh, just

377
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,599
do this question, And what do you do now that

378
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,599
you've experienced this? What do you blame that on? Do

379
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,960
you blame it on like poor management or like lack

380
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,640
of manpower? What are your thoughts on that noel, it's both.

381
00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:02,480
But every time something happens, the officers get in trouble.

382
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,880
And the problem is that it starts from the top.

383
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,000
Because if my supervisor is telling me to falsify documents

384
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,880
and I do it, I'm in trouble. But Lieutenant redacted

385
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,759
got promoted. You understand, Like the problem starts from the

386
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:17,119
top and it comes all the way down. It's not

387
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,839
being managed correctly, and the manpower is also not there.

388
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,920
Like you can't take somebody and tell them to work

389
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,240
sixteen hours. And remember it's a thing where I'm on probation,

390
00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:27,720
so I can't say no, I'm not working it. So

391
00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:30,119
you asked me to work sixteen hours every day. I'm

392
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,960
a human being, not a robot. I fell asleep plenty

393
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,680
of times going home I come to work. I remember

394
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,559
one time called the lieutenant's office like can't keep my

395
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,079
eyes open because that's just the reality of it. But

396
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,039
the time you go home, it's time for you. Some

397
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,519
people don't even go home. They try to sleep in

398
00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:49,400
the locker room because manpower is not there. And it's

399
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,799
absolutely ridiculous for me. I started in June of twenty eighteen.

400
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,400
The indictment said twenty sixteen. That's not true to December.

401
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,799
That's only six months and I made my pay because

402
00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:04,440
all of that's overtime. Question. Okay, thank you, that's all

403
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,680
great insight. Anything else we want to add, Noel, nothing

404
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,279
from me, Foy. The only thing I can think of,

405
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,759
which you kind of alluded to, is that it feels

406
00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:16,119
like as a new employee, the culture, the friendliness or

407
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,079
lack thereof the fact that in a way your trust

408
00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:22,400
in your colleagues is undermind through through your colleagues, right,

409
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,359
I mean, which makes it a difficult thing. I mean,

410
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,359
if you want to talk about that part of it, right,

411
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,240
because it's all related, it's not just one thing. So

412
00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:33,519
I mean, if you want to speak on it, this

413
00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:37,359
would be the time to say it. Your experience of

414
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,960
what it is a friendly experience. Did you feel supported

415
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,400
by your colleagues, Noel, no foy right. Did you like

416
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,960
it there? Noel, Oh no, absolutely not, absolutely not. I

417
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,680
was actually trying to like from the moment I started there.

418
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,920
I didn't like it there, and I was trying to

419
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,839
get out of there. But I'm not going to quit

420
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,240
a job and go sit at home. So the atmosphere

421
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,240
was like to me, I didn't feel safe because if

422
00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:01,480
you don't have enough people to work the units and

423
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:04,400
something happens and you had a body alarm, who's responding

424
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,160
if there's nobody there. So that's the problem in itself.

425
00:24:09,319 --> 00:24:12,720
There's been times where you got one officer working two units.

426
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,960
So what if somebody died on the other unit and

427
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:17,599
the officer is on the other unit. But there's been

428
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,640
and that's all not supposed to happen. But like I said,

429
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,160
it's okay because nobody died, nothing happened. But then something happens,

430
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,839
Then that officer working the two units gets in trouble,

431
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:31,720
not the lieutenant that said, hey, I'm assigning you to

432
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:34,240
work these two units. And yes, we know that we're

433
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,720
not supposed to work two units. But again, I don't

434
00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:39,359
feel like I can override my lieutenant or I can

435
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,640
override the senior officer because the instruction that's being passed

436
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,000
on from the top is not correct. But who am

437
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,480
I going to tell? Because everybody in that building knows

438
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,039
from the warden all the way down knows we don't

439
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,119
have enough people. We don't have enough. From day one

440
00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:57,960
I entered that building, that's all I've been hearing. We

441
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,640
don't have enough people. We don't have enough people. People

442
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,440
get hurt because there's not enough staff to respond to

443
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,400
certain things like when I'm out on a unit and

444
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,559
inmates are fighting, like if the inmates really wanted to

445
00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:12,680
take over and harm you, they could have. And then

446
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,079
who's responding fast enough? Because you hit the body alarmed?

447
00:25:16,319 --> 00:25:19,640
Sometimes only three people come questions, So, with all this

448
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,759
in mind, is there anything that you can think of

449
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,480
as a way to rectify the issues? Noel, they need staffing,

450
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,799
and I don't know if people don't say that, they're

451
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,920
like the culture of the MCC, it just needs to

452
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,440
start over, like it needs to be cleaned out and

453
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,079
start over. The people need to follow the rules and

454
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,599
reinforce and show people the correct things. Then maybe maybe

455
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,319
it could get somewhere. But when you have new people

456
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,400
coming in and we're taught bad and again, yes, I

457
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,480
could sit and read an employee handbook. Sometimes you read

458
00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:54,839
stuff in the context like I'm not in a camp

459
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,359
in a high rise, so the context of what you're

460
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,200
reading in an employee book refers to, like, you know,

461
00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:05,480
those types of institutions and not MCC. So sometimes you

462
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,519
try to put it into perspective question. So you keep

463
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,160
saying camp. Do you mean like an FCI or a

464
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,759
penitentiary Noel? Yeah? Question? Or are you talking about Noel yes,

465
00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:20,720
versus high rise building. So it's the procedure are a

466
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,160
little bit different. So that's why I rely on the

467
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,759
people inside to teach me. And you'll always hear that

468
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,839
this being said, there's the BOP way and there's the

469
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,279
MCC way, because at MCC they do it their way. Question. Okay,

470
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:36,559
good to know Noel. And again because I don't know,

471
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,720
because they probably don't give you the roster. Every single

472
00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:41,880
time that I come to work, I've called to switch

473
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,160
with somebody else because I don't want to work shoe

474
00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:46,599
because I don't know how to work the shoe, and

475
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,640
it's very annoying that you have to keep having to

476
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,000
ask somebody. There's plenty of times that I called across,

477
00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:54,960
like somebody working nine North, like hey, you want to

478
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,519
switch with me? And I switch because on a regular

479
00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:00,799
housing unit, I know what I'm doing in the shoe,

480
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,279
I don't know what I'm doing. And I've even told

481
00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:07,000
usually they put probationary staff to work in the shoe,

482
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,759
but again because of seniority, that's all that they have available,

483
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,480
So that's what I get. Question, okay, so anything on that.

484
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:19,319
Another investigator asked, do you recall any specific instance of

485
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,640
policy violation by staff or any other actions you can

486
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,480
bring into question about other staff members at MCC any

487
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:32,720
specific instances, Noel, No question by foy you're talking about

488
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:38,880
like contraband anything anything overall? Answer, Noel, I mean it

489
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,200
comes in some question. I think what he means more

490
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,319
along the lines though, like supervisor directed you to falsify

491
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,599
a record, Like that's pretty big if they're telling you

492
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,119
sign this because you need to take quarterly shoe training,

493
00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:54,240
anything else like that. Noel. I mean one time I

494
00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:56,799
got a drop note that said and inmate wanted to

495
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,440
rate me, and I forwarded the email to the lieutenant

496
00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:01,759
and I never got a call back, and I called

497
00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:03,799
in and I said, because that inmate is still on

498
00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:06,200
the unit. So if the inmate really wanted to rate me,

499
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,759
then I guess he would have. So I called and

500
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,079
I said, like, did you get my email? And she

501
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,680
was like, yeah, I got it, But that inmate ain't

502
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,880
going to do nothing to you. There are type of

503
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,240
things that happen at MCC. How do you know the

504
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,359
inmate's not going to do anything to me. What you

505
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,759
should have did was remove me from the unit or

506
00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:26,880
remove that inmate, but that wasn't done. Inmates have threatened me,

507
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,640
and they're supposed to remove them out of the building

508
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:32,920
and they don't. Inmates have threatened me and have sent

509
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,400
them to the shoe and they'll release them and then

510
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,720
they'll come right back to my unit. So again it's like,

511
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:42,599
who are you telling or complaining to at MCC because

512
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:44,960
from the top there's no help and I'm literally at

513
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,200
the bottom. I was the last officer at the time. Question, Now,

514
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,200
do you know of indiscernible corrupt officers like bringing in contraband?

515
00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:56,319
Is that like a problem at MCC. No, Well, it's

516
00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:58,440
a problem, but I don't know who brings it in.

517
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,480
I just always wonder as far as smoking, like they're

518
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:06,000
smoking all in the building. I get headaches daily because

519
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,000
of the smoking. So it comes in some way, But

520
00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:11,039
as far as who or how it comes in, I

521
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:14,839
don't know. Question, And I would think that it's kind

522
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,440
of easy to identify who is smoking, correct, Noel, You'll

523
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,200
be sitting in your officer station and you smell smoke.

524
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,640
So by the time I get it out. They always

525
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,720
have a watch person. So by the time I feel like, okay,

526
00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:30,599
I smell it, it's coming from here. Let me go

527
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,279
walk the tier this way, you'll be like, oh, she's coming.

528
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:38,160
So they already done. Question Now what are you smelling?

529
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,359
What kind of smoke? Is it? Marijuana? Noel? K two?

530
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,640
Question K two? Noel K two question? And can you

531
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,119
you know the distinct smell of K two? Noel? Yeah?

532
00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:52,519
Question was this on the shoe? Also? Noel? Yes, question,

533
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,200
it's the entire building. And you know I would welcome,

534
00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,000
right if OIG said we want to tour the institution

535
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,200
and judges do, attorneys do, law clerks do right, because

536
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,200
it gives you a little bit. You can actually put

537
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,440
a visual. Beside seeing the photos, you can get a visual.

538
00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:10,880
You actually get to see what it is to be

539
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,039
an employee there or even an inmate there. And the

540
00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:19,000
drug problem is absolutely rampant. The institution has no control

541
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:22,759
over it, right, So it boils down to that employee saying, Okay,

542
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,079
if you guys don't stop smoking, I'm locking everybody behind

543
00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:29,799
the door because it's making me sick. Or it's that

544
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,119
kind of thing like they're not holding inmates responsible for

545
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,279
incident reports. None of that stuff is happening, and it

546
00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:38,319
just makes it a very bad place to work, and

547
00:30:38,359 --> 00:30:42,200
it makes it a poor place for new employees. And

548
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:45,480
I say that wholeheartedly understanding that there is some onus

549
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:48,599
on Miss Noel. There's just some things that as an adult,

550
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:51,519
you have to say, I take responsibility for. I don't

551
00:30:51,559 --> 00:30:54,759
think she's ever come out of taking that responsibility. But

552
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,759
the mcc new York failed Miss Noel, mister Thomas, and

553
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:01,799
mister Epstein, regardless of what he was in jail for.

554
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,640
I don't believe anybody deserves a loss of life beyond

555
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,599
the walls of a jail, especially in that manner, right.

556
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,440
And there's just so many things. So when you ask

557
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:13,680
questions to Miss Noel, such as are there any instances

558
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,960
of falsifying documents? You're not going to say to me.

559
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:20,640
But I guarantee you that in reviewing rosters and training records,

560
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,240
I'm sure you guys have questionable discrepancies. I'm sure you've

561
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,480
caught rosters not reflecting what video show. I'm sure you've

562
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,759
caught employees on rosters, not on rosters but attending training,

563
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,759
but the rosters say they're on sick leave or annual leave.

564
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:37,880
I would bet my next low paycheck that the absolute

565
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,160
to what you guys have probably seen or experienced investigating

566
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,079
this whole thing. I would like to hope that the

567
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:46,720
death of an inmate leads to some change but gets

568
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,519
cut off. Sure, well, part of that has to do

569
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,400
with that we had to wait to interview. But yeah, question,

570
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:55,640
it just made me think of something. I just want

571
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,240
to make sure, just going back like we're talking about,

572
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,400
to make sure that we got like as truthful as

573
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,759
statement as possible with regard to August ninth, ten PM

574
00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:08,680
count talking about video and things like that. When you're

575
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,039
a member, although the count number was wrong, did you

576
00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:14,759
do the count from the outside grill or did you

577
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,920
actually walk down the range? Noel, I walked down the range,

578
00:32:18,839 --> 00:32:21,599
and I know, like for example, like in redacted statement,

579
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,440
he probably was like, I don't know if she did

580
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,680
the count, or I'm going to say she didn't do

581
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,880
the count because it needed to be done with me,

582
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,599
and I was like sleeping. He was sleeping, so I

583
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:32,839
don't know if he did the count. Question. I'm just

584
00:32:32,839 --> 00:32:37,240
trying to reconcile the review of the video, Noel. But no,

585
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,680
because I saw a lot of stuff. Even in the indictment,

586
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,640
there's a lot of things in there that's not true.

587
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,079
Like the one thing I know I did do was

588
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:47,880
a ten o'clock count question, But you just don't know

589
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,920
how they reconcile the fact that the numbers are off Noel,

590
00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,319
But the count I did do it? Question? Was that

591
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:55,720
just again, that's going to be one of those big

592
00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:59,279
things that's like, well, how do we if you're saying

593
00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:01,440
that you did the count and the numbers are wrong,

594
00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:04,599
We're going to have to review the video and Noel

595
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,759
cuts them off. What happened between like the seventy three

596
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,599
and seventy two and the phone call and what was said? Again,

597
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,799
but I did the count question? Okay? Anything else? Well,

598
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:16,440
I just want to thank you all so very much

599
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,000
for the cooperation and to the union. I want to

600
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:24,519
kind of apologize for the initial interaction question. I think

601
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:27,000
now talking with you, I think that you're actually I

602
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,440
was maybe misunderstanding maybe what you were doing. I just

603
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,319
wanted to make sure that we weren't going to be

604
00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:35,799
stopping this interview every time there was a question. But

605
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,880
you were extremely helpful though. Thank you for your participation

606
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,720
and that my Friends. Is the end of the Tovin

607
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:47,039
Noel interview with the OIG Inspectors. All of the information

608
00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:49,839
that goes with this episode can be found in the

609
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:50,720
description box.