WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.480 --> 00:00:11.560 Full trial audio everything hurting court no silences to skip, yes, 2 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:12.199 please run. 3 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:12.720 A lot of. 4 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.640 People in the court today we have Carmelwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. 5 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:16.920 Miss Clancy is present. 6 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:20.359 She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington, and the Commonwealth 7 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:24.239 is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennathan Sprague and Assistant 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:26.320 District Attorneyship In Buckingham. 9 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.399 All right, good morning, council A right, good morning, Miss Clancy. 10 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:34.119 All right, before we uh bring the jury in, let 11 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:36.520 me talk to everybody just a little bit about uh, 12 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:38.159 this morning's proceedings. 13 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:40.479 Counsel m. 14 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.560 Yes, please the court Today. 15 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.240 We have the continuation of the jury trial and the 16 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:05.680 matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms Clancy is president. 17 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.439 She is represented by Attorney Kevin Runnington. The Commonwealth is 18 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:13.319 represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Spragg and Assistant District 19 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:17.239 Attorney Shannon Buckingham. 20 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:21.319 Well, good morning, everybody. Nice to see everybody again. Thank 21 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.079 you for being here. What I'm going to do is 22 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.439 ask me those questions again and then talk a little 23 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:31.519 bit about today's schedule, and then we'll get right back 24 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:35.400 into the Commonwealth's presentation of the evidence. And so the 25 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:39.439 first question, as you probably know by now, is any 26 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.359 member of the jury red scene heard or overheard anything 27 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.480 from any source, but any aspect of this case that 28 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:46.439 would affect. 29 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.519 Your ability to be feared and partial as a journy. 30 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.519 Last question, is there any other serious matter or concern 31 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.439 bearing on your service as adjur in this case that 32 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:58.599 anybody needs to bring to my attention to this line. 33 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.599 Again, thank you for following those instructions. 34 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:03.120 Uh. 35 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:06.840 Today's schedule is we have a number of witnesses. We're 36 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.039 gonna start as soon as I'm done talking, and then 37 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.120 we'll get right back into the Carmos case. We'll go 38 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.919 we'll take a break mid morning, uh, and then we'll 39 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:21.080 continue untill one o'clock and then we'll I anticipate we'll 40 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.240 go somewhere into the afternoon, but we'll just kind of 41 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:26.560 have to see what the evidence is if any other 42 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.840 issues come up that I have to deal with that 43 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.960 doesn't concern you. Uh So with that, I'm gonna turn 44 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:34.960 this over at this point to the Commonwealth. 45 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:36.560 IM ready to call your next witness. 46 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:37.479 Guess run and the. 47 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:39.680 Come Wealth calls doctor Kimberly Springer. 48 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:42.800 The samijection. 49 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.759 Okay, th same. 50 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:49.560 All right, Good morning, doctor, Good morning, all right, come off. 51 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.879 Could I see Council Soviet for a second. Fruit they'll 52 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.680 work better for everybody, okay, all right, all right, come. 53 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.800 Off, thank you, honor, good morning. Can you please stay 54 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:03.080 and spell your name for the record. 55 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:06.960 Yes, it's Kimberly Springer k I M B E R 56 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.800 L E Y S P. 57 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:10.479 R I N G E R. 58 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:13.039 Where do you work at the Office of the Chief 59 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:15.280 Medical Examiner in Boston, Massachusetts? 60 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:17.159 And are you a medical examiner? 61 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:17.879 I am? 62 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:19.000 How long have you done that? 63 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:20.400 Twenty years? 64 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:23.319 Can you describe for us your educational background? 65 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:27.520 I yes, four years of college at Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts. 66 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.599 Four years of medical school at the Chicago Medical School 67 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.080 in North Chicago, Illinois. Four years of residency training in 68 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:37.599 anatomic and clinical pathology which is hospital based pathology and 69 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.439 at the Brigaman and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. And 70 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.080 one year of fellowship training in forensic pathology at the 71 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.919 Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, which is where I 72 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:48.400 now work. 73 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.919 And throughout that twenty years at the Medical Examiner's office. 74 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.520 Have you conducted autopsies? I have approximately how many? 75 00:03:56.840 --> 00:03:57.599 Over two thousand? 76 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.360 And have you testified in courts in the com Wealth 77 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:04.520 about these autopsies I have, Can you explain to the 78 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:05.960 duris what is an autopsy? 79 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:07.280 Yes. 80 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.039 An autopsy is a. 81 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:15.560 Tool by which we examine the whole body in an 82 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:20.240 effort to determine cause of death. And it's comprised of 83 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:24.519 two parts. And external examination, where we look for identifying 84 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:29.199 characteristics such as height and weight, evidence of medical therapy, 85 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:33.600 and evidence of trauma and disease. We may take evidence 86 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:41.199 as appropriate, and then we turn to the internal examination, 87 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:46.160 making surgical like incisions and examining each of the internal organs, 88 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.639 again looking for evidence of trauma and disease, and taking 89 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:54.839 additional samples for other tests such as toxicology. 90 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.279 Now I want to direct your attention to January twenty ninth, 91 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:01.519 twenty twenty three. Did you you perform an autopsy on 92 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:03.000 Callen Patrick Clancy. 93 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:03.600 I did. 94 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:07.160 And when you perform this autopsy, did you follow the 95 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.480 procedure you just described or you did an external examination 96 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:15.360 and then an internal examination? Yes? And can you tell 97 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.240 us what your initial observations were of Callen when you 98 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.399 started the external examination? 99 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:32.360 Yes, so Callen had some therapeutic procedures in place or 100 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:39.480 therapeutic equipment in place, including a thermometer and the left nostril, 101 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:44.399 a laser gastric tube in the right, an endotracheal tube 102 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:50.800 down the throat, a fully catheter draining urine, intravascular catheters 103 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:56.519 in the right hand and right wrist UH and an intravascular. 104 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:57.879 Catheter in the left foot. 105 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:04.000 There was some diseased a residue, possibly from other therapeutic 106 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.319 procedures as well on his chest. And there are additional 107 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:14.000 needle marks that I saw on his body. In general, 108 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.839 I may should I keep going? 109 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.240 Well, what were your general observations? 110 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:19.920 In general? 111 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.439 He was We measured him at twenty six inches long 112 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:31.160 and twenty four pounds. He had general edema, and that 113 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:34.040 those are the general So. 114 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.519 When you were talking about therapeutic things, are those things 115 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.439 that were done by a medical provider at a hospital 116 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:41.639 or some such setting. 117 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:42.600 Correct? 118 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.079 And what do you mean when you say he had 119 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.000 general edema? 120 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:48.879 It means that he had. 121 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:55.040 General His whole body had more fluid than one would 122 00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:00.800 expect in a person or eight months of an eight 123 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:04.240 month old who had not been in the hospital. It's 124 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:09.120 very common for someone coming from the hospital to have 125 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.040 had been given fluids such that they have excess fluid 126 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:14.560 and swelling. 127 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:22.800 Did you make observations of any injuries or trauma to callin? Yes, 128 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.680 if we could have a photo nine nine six zero. 129 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:28.519 Hold on, let me just remembers the dread it's might 130 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:32.600 give you a kind of revisit that instruction they talked 131 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:33.680 to you last week about. 132 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:37.000 I remember we talked about before they played that tape. 133 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.800 All right, I just want to remind you that sometimes 134 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.959 evidence is presented for the trial that. 135 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:45.160 Creates emotional reactions. 136 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:49.319 But as jurors who have taken an oath the fall 137 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.920 of the law, I'm instructing you as they did last week, 138 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:56.480 they you must separate any emotional reaction on your part 139 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:01.000 from the informational value and the way from the You 140 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.079 must not be influenced in any way but the unpleasant 141 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.519 nature of the photographs and testimony that you're going to 142 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.000 hear this morning or throughout the whole trial as well. 143 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.720 So you must find the facts in this case based 144 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:17.720 only on the evidence. 145 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.639 But you can't find. 146 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:26.439 Those facts or base those facts on sympathy, anger, passion, prejudice, 147 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.079 or pity against either side. 148 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:29.480 So I appreciate that. 149 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:30.959 I just kind of want to remind you of that, 150 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:32.840 and with that. 151 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.159 Came on, Thank you, honor. So photo nine ninety six 152 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.639 zero is that on the screen dot? 153 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:44.840 Not yet? Yes, okay, thank you. 154 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:48.559 If you could just describe for us what we're seeing 155 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:49.320 here in this photo. 156 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.639 So, this is a photograph of Kellen at the time 157 00:08:54.679 --> 00:09:04.840 of autopsy, and heming a ruler underneath his neck where 158 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:12.000 above which you can see abrasions, and you can also 159 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.320 see some needle marks that I mentioned from therapeutic procedures 160 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:16.559 on his arm. 161 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:18.399 I'm sorry if you could use the tool pressing the 162 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.120 top button there just to highlight the area talking about 163 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:22.240 the abrasions. 164 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:22.240 On the net. 165 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.559 Right here on his right side of his neck and 166 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.759 then in the middle of the neck and on the 167 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:31.879 left side of the neck. 168 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:41.080 And I could now have photograph six sixty three you 169 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:43.279 could tell us what we're seeing here in this photograph. 170 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:43.679 Doctor. 171 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:51.600 This is another photograph showing a bit more closely again 172 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.879 the abrasions of the neck. There's one on the front 173 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.039 of the neck, the one the shorter one that's about 174 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.200 half an inch long by one sixteenth inch. For those 175 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.679 more familiar with the metric system, a centimeter is two 176 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.159 point five centimeters. 177 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:11.440 About an inch. A sixteenth of an inch is. 178 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:15.279 About one point five millimeters, so this is half an 179 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.960 inch by one sixteenth inch. And then on the right 180 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.279 here this is about one and a half inches by. 181 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:25.120 A sixteenth inch, and then showing. 182 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:26.440 Two. 183 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:30.639 May I go back to that for one? 184 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.919 For one, I just want to point out between the 185 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:42.559 ruler and the abrasions, you can see a paler line. 186 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:48.519 That's a normal infant neckfold. That's not a injury, thank you. 187 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.240 In nine nine five two, Please you could just point 188 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.159 out for us here the injuries of significance to you. 189 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:04.159 Here. Sorry, I I think I did that. 190 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.159 We could go back to the prior total the top one. 191 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:14.639 Yeah, okay, So these again are the abrasions on the 192 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.480 left side of his neck, and there's the one on 193 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:19.279 the front of his neck. 194 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.120 In addition, on uh. 195 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:25.879 The left side of his forehead is a three sixteenth 196 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:32.320 inch by one sixteenth inch abrasion. And I think, uh 197 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.559 you can also begin to see uh particial hemorrhages, which 198 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:41.639 are dot like hemorrhages underneath the skin on the face. 199 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.000 And what are particulal hemorrhages. 200 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:49.919 Particular hemorrhages occur when uh, there is rupture of the 201 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:52.360 small blood vessels underneath the skin surface. 202 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:53.320 UH. 203 00:11:53.360 --> 00:12:00.879 And they are from an over pressure of the small 204 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.360 blood vessels such as capillaries or venuals, and UH blood 205 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.679 escapes out and makes a dot like hemorrhage. 206 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.960 We could have photo nine nine five four if you 207 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.360 could explain for us what we're seeing in this photograph. 208 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:25.519 Place Uh in this photograph is uh Callen's uh right side, 209 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:30.039 also showing the back of his neck, so that abrasion 210 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:33.799 that could be seen in the first photo UH showing 211 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.240 the front of his neck. That abrasion continues along about 212 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:42.159 three inches in all toward the right posterior or back 213 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:42.720 of the neck. 214 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:48.000 And if we could have photo nine nine five five piece. 215 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.440 Is this a close up photograph of what you just described. 216 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.559 Yes, you can show it out right here. 217 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.600 Thank you. Could we have photo six thirty six please, 218 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.480 and UH, if you could describe for us what you 219 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:10.960 see here in. 220 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:11.639 This photo doc. 221 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:18.200 UH the abrie Well, first, the abrasion is in poor focus, 222 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.519 but it's in the picture on the left side of 223 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.840 UH of the photograph. 224 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:22.840 UH. 225 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.159 And then the most in the f in the photograph, 226 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:32.399 one can see those particular hemorrhages better along the cheek 227 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:33.679 on the eyelid. 228 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:38.120 All of those we can have. 229 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:43.879 Photo six five four, Please can you describe what we're 230 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:45.679 seeing in this photograph? Doctor Uh? 231 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.519 Yes, it's an abrasion UH near the hairline on the 232 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:51.480 right side of the forehead, and. 233 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.720 That is appear that is about. 234 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.559 Three eights by one inch one eighth inch. 235 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:03.919 And then photo six five six, Please can you describe 236 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:05.120 what we're seeing in this photo here? 237 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:05.480 Doctor? 238 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:06.279 Uh? 239 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.519 This is a looks looking at the top of Callen's 240 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:14.240 head and on the top right part of his head, 241 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.200 UH toward the front is near the forehead is a 242 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:19.559 UH one eighth by one sixteenth intro version. 243 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:26.679 And then photos six five seven place, Hm, you can 244 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.960 describe what we're seeing here, doctor, this is. 245 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.960 A the abrasion on the left side of his forehead 246 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:37.120 with a ruler at this time. 247 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:37.840 Uh. 248 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.279 In addition, the UH pettiki are also in pretty good 249 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:42.000 focus on this. 250 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:49.159 And then photograph nine nine one six. If you can 251 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.120 describe for us what we're seeing in this photograph place Uh. 252 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.360 So these are some of the UH. I forgot to 253 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:58.320 mention at the very beginning. There's a intravascar catheter in 254 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.000 the UH right groin. This is Callen before we took 255 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.559 off his medical therapy. 256 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:07.919 Uh. 257 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.080 And it shows some of the needle marks. 258 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:11.159 That he had. 259 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:18.639 So on his this is right lower extremity. This is 260 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:26.200 a look of an intra osseous catheter attempt with a 261 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.039 central puncture mark and our round abrasion around it. And 262 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:36.320 then here's the right growing line and the left foot line. 263 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.320 And if we could have photograph nine nine to one seven, 264 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.120 are we seeing the same thing here on the left leg, 265 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.080 those same ile at. 266 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:48.320 Tent marks exactly? 267 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:49.919 Yes, thank you. 268 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:58.480 Doctor. Are you able to to date the the wounds 269 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.480 that I had, the abrasions and mark on the head, 270 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.840 Are you able to say when those got there or 271 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:03.919 how long they've been there? 272 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.519 I can't precisely, but they have signs of healing in 273 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:09.559 the form of scabbing. 274 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.399 And would that indicate that they weren't fresh wounds that 275 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:16.840 happened the day you saw him or the day prior. 276 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:25.799 Correct in terms of the marks around Kalan's neck and 277 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.720 the pateechii around his eyes and face, did that give 278 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.720 you an indication here of the mechanism of death for Callen? 279 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:35.480 Ah? 280 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:35.759 Yes? 281 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:43.879 And how so so it is consistent with a ligature 282 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:48.720 of strangulation, given that the abrasions are linear around his 283 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.120 neck and there are particular hemorrhages above. 284 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:55.759 Those lines of abrasion. 285 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.440 And how is it that when someone is straight the 286 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.000 ligature that that causes pateechii in the face and eyes. 287 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.440 So what happens is that the blood vessels that supply 288 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:15.000 blood to the neck are compressed. And so there are 289 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.720 regular veins which are a lower pressure system, and carrotid 290 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:23.559 arteries which are a somewhat higher pressure system. And so 291 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:29.640 the as the vessels are compressed, if there is a 292 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.799 backup of blood in the head, there can be an 293 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.000 increased pressure in those small blood vessels that I mentioned, 294 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.680 and they can rupture, causing the pati qui. 295 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:43.480 But basically, is it similar to a balloon filling up? 296 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.359 But it's not air, it's it's blood and pressure in 297 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:52.759 the face. Yes, And so when that pressure gets too great, 298 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.640 is it that the capillaries are basically bursting and causing 299 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:57.720 those little red marks? 300 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:03.839 Yes, most texts save capillaries, some save venules, the small 301 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:04.519 blood vessels. 302 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.319 And how is it that this process, the strangulation by 303 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.440 ligature causes death physically? How does that? How does it 304 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.319 physically happen. 305 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:25.519 So the blockage of blood, either both to end from 306 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.519 the head or just from the head, will cause a 307 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.880 lack of oxygen to arrive at the brain. 308 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:34.200 Uh. 309 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:39.039 And UH there can be an element of airway compression 310 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:49.240 as well, such that the lungs can't oxygenate properly. And UH, 311 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.359 so that lack of oxygen is what causes the brain 312 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.680 to die and uh the organs to fail. 313 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:03.240 And based on your examination of Callen, did you come 314 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:09.799 to a determination, based on your training and experience, to 315 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.440 a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to the cause 316 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:14.200 of his death? 317 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:14.920 Yes? 318 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.720 And what was that? 319 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.880 Complications of mechanical asphyxia? 320 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.799 And why is it complications of mechanical asphyxia instead of 321 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.599 just the asphyxia. 322 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:32.880 Itself, Because he was resuscitated and so his heart began 323 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:39.200 to beat again, and from the twenty fourth to the 324 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:45.880 twenty seventh there was a continuation of support of his 325 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:53.200 organs to in the hospital. And so if he had 326 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.079 he had a heart stopped heart at the scene, and 327 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.960 in that case I would have just said mechanical asphyxia, 328 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.359 But since there was a three day hospital stay, I 329 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.720 said complications of mechanical asphyxia. 330 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:08.119 So the word complications doesn't mean that something happened at 331 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:10.599 the hospital to cause his death. It's just that the 332 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.400 strangulation caused his death. But he didn't die for a 333 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:14.279 few days. 334 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:14.640 Correct. 335 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:20.519 Kamal would move to submit the autopsy photos as the 336 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:21.279 next exhibit. 337 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:27.440 Same rejections. They may be admitted, that may be admitted. 338 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:34.880 Have nothing further, council, All right, thank you me step down, doctor, 339 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:37.599 thank you, I see just brief. 340 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.279 Yeah, I should break it this time. 341 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:53.039 Okay, all right, all right, this quote will be in recess. 342 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.319 For the purpose of the record. We returned back to 343 00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:58.559 the matter of comwell for us as Lindsay Clancy. All 344 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:02.039 potties up present, including the kind of excluding the jury. 345 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.559 All right, cause were ready for the jury. 346 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:04.039 Yes, your honor? 347 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.200 All right? 348 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:14.839 Or are there this of course? Now session please be 349 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.200 see that arana. 350 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.039 For the purpose of the record, we returned back up 351 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:19.359 a trial commonwealth process. 352 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.039 Lindsay Clancy, all including. 353 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.039 The defendant and including the eighteen jurors. 354 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:25.759 All right, thank you everyone. 355 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.200 So we are now return to the Komo's case. 356 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:29.599 Tree Sprague, thank you. 357 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:31.680 On a como calls doctor Lindsay Roshert. 358 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:38.440 Yeah, just watch this stuff please, Hey, good morning, Dog, 359 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.240 Good morning, Tree. 360 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.799 Sprague, thank you, good morning. Can you please stay and 361 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:44.960 spell your name for the record. 362 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.400 Lindsay roschert l I N D S A y R 363 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:50.079 O S s H I R T. 364 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:51.799 And what do you do for a living? 365 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:53.119 I'm a pediatrician. 366 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:54.400 Where do you work? 367 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.519 I work at Quincy Pediatrics. 368 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.839 Back in twenty twenty three? Where did you work Selfial 369 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:04.160 Medical Center? And how long had you work there at 370 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:04.960 that point. 371 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.519 In twenty twenty three? I think I had been there 372 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.400 for about seven years? 373 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.119 And could you just briefly describe for us your educational 374 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.960 and training background that enabled you to be a pediatrician. 375 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:15.720 Yes. 376 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.759 I completed medical school at Yukon and then did my 377 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.039 pediatrics residency at mass General. 378 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.920 And when you were working at the self Shore practice 379 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.640 in twenty twenty three, were you assigned as a pediatrician 380 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:32.720 for the Clancy family? 381 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.200 Yes? 382 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.720 And how long had you been there? Pediatrician? 383 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:39.839 I'm sorry? How long had I? Can you repeat that question? 384 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:43.359 How long had you been the family pediatrician for the Clancys. 385 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.240 I believe I started seeing them around twenty nineteen. 386 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.720 And in the practice that you were in at that time, 387 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.720 was it just yourself or were there other doctors and 388 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.920 nurse practitioners and staff that would treat and see patients. 389 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:57.480 It was a somewhat large group. 390 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.960 And so would you always be the one treating the 391 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.039 Clancy children or would some of your associates sometimes see 392 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:06.759 the children. 393 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.680 I did all the checkups, but if there was a 394 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:12.039 sickness and I wasn't there that day, they would be 395 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:13.240 seen by another provider. 396 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.599 And by checkup are you referring to a physical or 397 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.160 well visit. 398 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:17.599 Yes. 399 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.960 And then if for example, one of the children were 400 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.319 ill and the family called to make an appointment, they 401 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:24.480 would see who's available. 402 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.920 Yes, they would always check my schedule first, but often 403 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:28.880 have to see someone else. 404 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.079 And would you have access to their records as their 405 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.720 lead pediatrician to review if they came in for a 406 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.200 sick visit or something like that, to keep yourself updated. Yeah. 407 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.039 Often at the time of the checkup is when we 408 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.160 will go back and see what visits they've had since 409 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:44.839 the last time we saw them. 410 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.240 This time, I'd move to submit the pediatric records from 411 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.799 Self Shore Medical Center for Cora Bowsson and Clancy. 412 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.759 Any objection it may be admitted. 413 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.960 If we could focus for a moment on callen Clancy. 414 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:07.039 He was born in May of twenty twenty two, correct, 415 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.640 that sounds right, Yes, and you were his pediatrician from 416 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.480 the time he was born. Yes, while you were his pediatrician, 417 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.279 did his mother, Lindsay Clancy, ever talk to you about 418 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.720 Kllen having issues taking a bottle? 419 00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:23.160 Not that I can remember. 420 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.960 Was there anything out of the ordinary health wise with Callen? 421 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:31.240 No? 422 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.839 Was there any issues or were there any issues with 423 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:36.759 him meeting his milestones? 424 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:38.200 No? 425 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:38.279 No? 426 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.440 What about Dawson Clancy? Did he have any health issues 427 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:46.839 or concerns that you were aware of? 428 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.680 If I recall correctly from the notes, I think just 429 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.480 a peanut allergy if I remember, But otherwise he was 430 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.200 healthy and. 431 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.359 Core Clancy did she have any medical issues? 432 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.680 I think asthma That was pretty welcome trolled, but she 433 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.559 was also healthy. 434 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.960 Now, in your role as a pediatrician, are you aware 435 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:10.920 of postpartum issues and are there certain things that you 436 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.160 look for in new moms when you're treating babies. 437 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:20.920 Yes, we were certainly aware of it, and we try 438 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.079 to look for any kind of outward signs at some 439 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:29.559 of the initial newborn visits. Do you want me to elaborate, yes, please, So, 440 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.599 for example, things we might look for would be if 441 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.359 a mom is kind of has a flat affect, or 442 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:39.400 not really making eye contact, or tearfull, or having trouble 443 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.000 bonding with the with the baby. 444 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.000 And if there are those issues that you see, do 445 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:45.880 you document them in the medical records? 446 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:46.319 Yes? 447 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:50.400 And what do you do in terms of treatment or 448 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.440 care when you see those things? 449 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:53.240 Yes? 450 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.640 So, since since we're obviously caring for the child, we 451 00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.880 are not really able to diagnose or manage anything for 452 00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:03.279 the mom, but we do try to connect her with resources, 453 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.160 whether Massachusetts has some postpartum resources or often will refer 454 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.519 to have her try to contact her OBI. 455 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.119 When you were interacting with Lindsay Clancy when you were 456 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.920 treating her three children, did you ever see the need 457 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.880 to refer her for any of those services? 458 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:20.119 No? 459 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.200 And did you ever see any of those visible signs 460 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.839 that you talked about, the flat affect or anything like 461 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.319 that when you were interacting with her. 462 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:33.599 I don't remember anything like that. No. 463 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.480 Now I want to ask you about some of the 464 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:40.680 things that are in the medical record that the jurors 465 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:42.480 will see, so that you can just kind of explain 466 00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:47.240 what they'll be looking at. Showing you a record here 467 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:56.440 from January eighteenth, twenty twenty three. Issues with the brightnesself. 468 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.880 Just bring it to you. I just look that over. 469 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:05.079 But consistent with the medical records from your practice. 470 00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.039 Yes, and so. 471 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.799 For example with this visit callan Clancy seven month old 472 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:17.359 mail here with mom for bilateral bilateral air pulling and festiness. 473 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.319 So is that typical in the medical records where you'll 474 00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:25.079 document the patient being seen, the age, who they're there with, 475 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.000 and what the issue is. Yes, okay, And how do 476 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.799 you get a history, say, when a kid comes in 477 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.599 and they're sick, how do you get the history of 478 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:37.680 their symptoms and what's going on with them? 479 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.720 So we usually do a brief review in the chart 480 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:44.559 just to know what their anything on their so called 481 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.119 problem list meant for medical conditions, and then in the 482 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.480 room we ask the parents the story. In pediatrics, usually 483 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:52.720 we have to rely on a. 484 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.160 Guardian, especially when it's it's like a seven month old 485 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.839 who can't speak for themselves. So it would be whichever 486 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:02.759 parents A person is there giving you their concerns and 487 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:06.799 the symptoms and communicating with what's about what's going on? Yes, 488 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.960 And if there were any issues with communicating with the 489 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.119 parent present, would that be documented in the medical records. Yes. 490 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:20.000 And you saw Core Clancy on January twenty fourth, twenty 491 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:24.200 three for physical correct. Yes, And as you say stated earlier, 492 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:26.880 prior to seeing her for the physical, did you look 493 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.240 over her chart to see if she had been in 494 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:31.680 recently with any illnesses or anything like that. 495 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:32.680 Yes? 496 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.039 I would have done that, and. 497 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.039 So would you have seen this note when her mother 498 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:42.039 brought her in on December twenty seventh, twenty twenty two, 499 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:53.880 with some vomiting and sore throat. Yes, And again if 500 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.480 there had been concerns at that appointment, they would have 501 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:57.759 been noted in the record. 502 00:28:58.079 --> 00:28:58.400 Yes. 503 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.319 And then as the pediatrician, if you'd seen some concerns, 504 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.480 would you have addressed them with the parent? 505 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:04.119 Yes? 506 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.039 And that didn't happen on January twenty fourth correct. Correct, 507 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:14.559 And speaking specifically to January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, 508 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.559 that was Core's five year physical, is that right? 509 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:17.920 Yes? 510 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.720 And sometimes in the record it's called a well visit? Yes? 511 00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:23.759 And what were your observations of Coorr that day? 512 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.440 As far as I can recall, it was a very 513 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:32.400 normal visit. Cora seemed to be behaving normally, I mean, 514 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.400 no kids, happy to be there, for a checkup, But 515 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.079 I didn't notice anything out of the norm. She seemed 516 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.839 perfectly well behaved and mom seemed appropriate as well. 517 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:42.119 Mom seemed appropriate. 518 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:42.559 Yes. 519 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:46.759 Did you notice anything out of the ordinary about Lindsey 520 00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:50.759 Clancy's demeanor or behavior or interaction with you? 521 00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:50.839 No? 522 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.200 Was she able to give you a history of how 523 00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:56.799 Kor was doing and what milestone she was meeting? 524 00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:57.319 Yes? 525 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:00.640 Was she able to answer your questions? Yes? Did you 526 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:02.599 have any trouble understanding her at any point? 527 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:03.000 No? 528 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:05.880 Did she seem to have any trouble understanding you? 529 00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:06.000 No? 530 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.599 Did she have, you know, visible tears or a flat 531 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:10.839 affect or anything like that. 532 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:11.200 No. 533 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.839 Did you have a discussion with Lindsay Clancy about Cora 534 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:19.160 having some stomach aches? 535 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:19.720 Yes? 536 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.200 And what was your evaluation of that in your recommendation? 537 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.559 So we talked about the belly pains she was having it. 538 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.720 From what I could tell, I thought constipation might be 539 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:33.920 possible because it's something we see a lot in kids. 540 00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.799 So I had suggested we try Mira Relax, which is 541 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:42.359 a common stool softener we use, and wanted her to 542 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.920 see me within two weeks if Cora wasn't feeling. 543 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:50.079 Better, and when you recommended the Marra Alexe. Was Lindsay 544 00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:51.160 Clancy receptive to that? 545 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:52.640 Yes, I believe so. 546 00:30:53.799 --> 00:31:01.279 And no for the questions, thank you, good morning. 547 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:09.119 What's the timeframe that you dealt with the Clancy children 548 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.359 because you took care of all three of them, right, 549 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:18.279 all three? And when you would see the children, who 550 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:21.240 would bring the children to see you for the checkups? 551 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:23.480 Was it Lindsay or was it Lindsay and Patrick? 552 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.759 I think that Lindsay and Patrick came together for one 553 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:31.200 of the one of course checkups, But as far. 554 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.640 As I can remember, every other visit was always Lindsay. 555 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:41.079 And being an experienced pediatrician and being very protective of 556 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:46.519 your patients little kids, you're always looking to see if 557 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:51.039 there's anything out of the ordinary, bruising, anything indicative of 558 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:55.799 any type of psychiatric problems, they may have stunted growth 559 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.839 or anything ze correct. Yes, you're always on the lookout 560 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:00.359 for anything else, even if it's. 561 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:00.960 Not mentioned to you. 562 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.160 Right, Did you ever notice anything like that on the 563 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:05.000 Clancy kids? 564 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:06.960 Did they seem healthy? 565 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:07.559 Yes? 566 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:08.599 Did they seem happy? 567 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:09.440 Yes? 568 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:12.680 And you know all the times that you would see 569 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:19.680 Lindsay with the kids at your office, did she appear 570 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:26.200 to be a doting or concerned mother for the children. 571 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.960 One of the questions that the DA had asked you 572 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:35.920 is whether or not you're familiar with postpatum depression, postpatum psychosis, things. 573 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:36.400 Of that nature. 574 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:41.920 Would you agree with me in your experience, extensive as 575 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:45.519 it is, that a person can be suffering from postpatum 576 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.720 depression he and or postpatum psychosis and still talk. 577 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:56.279 I'm not sure it's I have enough expertise to explain 578 00:32:56.599 --> 00:32:57.440 to answer that. 579 00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.519 Well, that's fine, that's fine, thank you. 580 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:06.759 Was lindsay the type of person to your observation and 581 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.079 your treatment of her that she was kind of like? 582 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:11.880 Was she like a complainer? Would she complained to you 583 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.519 about the kids being a pain in the neck and 584 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:18.400 that she was aggravated with the children or anything like. 585 00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.359 That, not that I remember now, and all. 586 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:25.319 Of the times that you had seen her, Let's focus 587 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:30.400 say on the year of twenty twenty two up through 588 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.319 twenty twenty three January twenty fourth, when you. 589 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:35.200 Saw the children. 590 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:41.119 I'm sorry, Cora, I believe it was last counsel had 591 00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:43.720 asked you whether or not you made any observations that 592 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:47.240 you would have noted if she appeared to be suffering 593 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.880 from any any symptomology of postpartum Do you recall. 594 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:52.319 Her asking you that? 595 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:52.799 Yes? 596 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.160 And in your treatment of the children and in your 597 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:04.000 observations of lindsay, did you know or did she indicate 598 00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.759 to you or did Patrick indicate to you or anybody 599 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:13.159 indicate to you that in October of twenty twenty two 600 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:15.679 she was seeing a psychiatrist? 601 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:16.320 No? 602 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:18.760 Do you know doctor Tufts? 603 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:19.320 No? 604 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.679 Did you know that after seeing doctor Tuffts. 605 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.639 That she was placed on a selective of serotonin reuptate 606 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:29.400 inhibitor SSIRA. 607 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:29.960 As Oll left. 608 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.400 No, I didn't know that. 609 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.159 And again this is Youah, the pediatrician. It's not your 610 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.000 job to pry. I mean if somebody, if you see something, 611 00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:40.719 you would make note of it and try to help 612 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:42.880 them out. But I mean if they don't tell you, 613 00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:46.519 you don't know, right, did you know? If you had 614 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:48.079 to say that, you didn't know that she was then 615 00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:51.679 seeing a doctor Paul, and then Paul left the practice 616 00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:54.119 and doctor nurse practitioner Jelata. 617 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:55.840 I didn't know that. 618 00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:57.440 Okay? Do you know them? 619 00:34:57.719 --> 00:34:57.840 No? 620 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.679 The only reason why I ask you know them is 621 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:03.440 that you South Shoa Medical Center is that is that 622 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:05.440 affiliated with Southshua hospital. 623 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:06.760 I believe it was. 624 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:08.960 It was already owned by the hospital at that time. 625 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:16.800 Okay, Latasha Duke's nothing about her any medications. Did you 626 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:18.719 know about her being in any medications? 627 00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:19.559 No, I didn't. 628 00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:21.800 She didn't complain to you and. 629 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.559 Say that she had in saw him here and that 630 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:27.400 she was unable to sleep or having difficulty. 631 00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:29.039 Like that, not that I can remember. 632 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:31.719 Until institution, I didn't know that. 633 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:36.199 So when you saw her in January twenty fourth, you 634 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.920 did not know that she had been to McLain hospital 635 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:42.400 and had been on medications or anything. Right, That's correct, 636 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:43.960 because again she wasn't a complainer. 637 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:44.840 Correct. 638 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:47.559 She was the hell of her mother, wasn't she. 639 00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:48.960 I always thought she was a good mom. 640 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:49.480 Thank you? 641 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.960 Redirected Jana, thank you do thank you from both called 642 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.679 Susan for you. 643 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.480 I asked you to keep your wish up speaking to 644 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:03.039 that microphone. Can we Sprague? 645 00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:03.280 Please? 646 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:05.360 Thank you? Can you please stay and spill your name 647 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:05.920 for the record. 648 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:12.079 Susan freyone, sus An Frni and your date of birth eleven, 649 00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:13.119 twenty six eighty two. 650 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:16.960 Where do you work Learning Sprouts and how long have 651 00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:20.039 you been working at Learning Sprouts Almost six years? What 652 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:29.719 is learning Sprouts Preschool daycare. What age range of kids 653 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:35.519 attend Learning Sprouts fifteen months to about five years? And 654 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:37.639 what age range do you teach. 655 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.679 The about three year olds to four year olds? 656 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.480 And back in January of twenty twenty three, what age 657 00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:48.599 range were you focused on the teaching three year old 658 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:53.000 four year olds? Was Dawson Clancy in your classroom? 659 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:53.599 Yes? 660 00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.039 When did you start in your classroom? 661 00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:00.920 September of twenty two? 662 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.960 And did you know Cora Clancy as well? 663 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:06.320 Yes? 664 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:07.320 How did you know Kora? 665 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.119 Most of the teachers help out in all the classrooms, 666 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:12.719 so we get to know all the children. 667 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.719 And did you teach Dawson from September of twenty twenty 668 00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:22.480 two until you went on maternity leave later on in 669 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:23.199 twenty twenty two? 670 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:23.760 Yes? 671 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.000 Do you remember what month that was in that you 672 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:26.599 went on leave? 673 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:27.880 November? 674 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:33.639 Prior to going on leave, so from September to November 675 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.039 of twenty twenty two, were there any issues with Dawson? 676 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:43.760 He started having harder drop offs around mid October. 677 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:46.719 I would say is that typical for that age or 678 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:47.840 is that something unusual? 679 00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:49.760 Sometimes? 680 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:53.960 Yes, it was a little not typical for Dawson. So 681 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:56.159 prior to that he was found at drop offs and 682 00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:59.039 then sometime in October drop offs became a little harder 683 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.800 for him Yes, And did that resolve over time? 684 00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.000 Sometimes he would have better dropped offs other times. 685 00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:16.719 But then I went on leave. So and after you 686 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.079 went on leave, sometime after Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two, 687 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:28.480 did you see Lindsay Clancy, Dawson's mother. Don't really remember? 688 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:30.960 I think I did. 689 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.800 Do you recall having a conversation with Lindsay where she 690 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.000 asked you how your baby was and how you were doing. 691 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.400 Yes, we did have a conversation at some point because 692 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.039 I was still bringing my oldest daughter to school every day. 693 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.599 And so you had your child in November. And then 694 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.559 this conversation is sometime either around or after Thanksgiving? 695 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:55.679 Yes. 696 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:59.639 And when you had this conversation and interaction with Lindsay Clancy, 697 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:01.199 is that at the school? 698 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:01.880 Yes? 699 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.320 And how is her demeanor fine? Was it any different 700 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:07.880 than any other time you had seen her? 701 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:08.559 No? 702 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:11.320 Did she appear to understand you? 703 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:12.039 Yes? 704 00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:13.840 Did you have any trouble understanding her? 705 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:14.079 No? 706 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:18.760 Did you have any concerns about her at that time? 707 00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:19.159 No? 708 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.239 Was that the last time you saw her? 709 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:24.719 Yes? 710 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:28.559 And you're a mandated reporter, correct yes. So if you 711 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:32.480 had seen anything about Dawson's behavior or about the parent's 712 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:35.199 behavior at any point that caused you concern, you would 713 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.559 have had to report that correct. Yes, And at no 714 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.960 time did you make any reports about the family or 715 00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:41.760 the children or the parents. 716 00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:42.079 No. 717 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:49.400 When you had that conversation with Lindsay Clancy sometime in 718 00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:54.000 November of twenty twenty two, did she ever say anything 719 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:58.880 about and somnia or not feeling well or being depressed 720 00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.719 or anything like that. 721 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:03.239 Thank you cross. 722 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.440 So how long did you, in your capacity as a 723 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.519 teacher at Learning Sports know the clan sees. 724 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:17.440 I started at Learning Spots in November of twenty twenty 725 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.079 and Cora was in preschool at the time. 726 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:24.199 Okay, so you obviously saw the kids on a fairly 727 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:25.079 regular basis. 728 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679 Yes, And forget me, what does a drop off? What 729 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:28.199 does that mean? 730 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.960 I'm sorry, when the parents dropped the children off at school? 731 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:31.639 Okay? 732 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:35.199 And when DOESICC attorney asked you with their difficult drop offs? 733 00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:35.880 What does that mean? 734 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:39.840 Sometimes when parents drop the children off, they'll be a 735 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:41.679 little clingy or they cry. 736 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:46.599 Excuse me, they cry, and that would be the child 737 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:47.519 would cry, maybe the. 738 00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.760 Parent either, I don't know, But times so. 739 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.039 Did they have difficult drop offs on occasion? I guess 740 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.800 the dotsman would cry? Yes, how would lends you react? 741 00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:59.519 Was she okay? Did she take did she seem concerned 742 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:01.880 as a parent? Okay? 743 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:08.199 And and Duston appeared to be healthy and happy and engaged, yes, 744 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:09.519 as well as Cora. 745 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:16.079 Yes, thank you. 746 00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:16.119 Thank you, all right, thank you man, you sit down, 747 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:16.599 thank you? 748 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:19.159 Oats of stuff? 749 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:20.800 Come on? 750 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:22.360 What would call Susan Bartolo? 751 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.039 Lots of stuff? 752 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:29.320 Pleas? 753 00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:33.559 Yeah, good morning, good morning? 754 00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.559 Ask you speaking to that microphone? Okay, keep your voice 755 00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:38.519 up so we can hear you. 756 00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.559 Okay, all right, come on, thank you, good morning. Could 757 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:44.559 you please tell the jurors your first and last name, 758 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:47.639 Susan Bartolo, and if you could just speak as loud 759 00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.280 as you can into that microphone. Okay, yep? Can you 760 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:51.599 spell your last name for the record? 761 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:53.880 B E R T O L O. 762 00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.599 And what city of your town do you live in? Plymouth, Messes? 763 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.159 And where do you work Leaping Frogs Preschool? Prior to 764 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:06.039 working at Leaping Frogs, did you work at another preschool? 765 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:06.440 Yes? 766 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:12.159 Did you teach a particular age group at that preschool? 767 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:12.719 Yes? 768 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.760 I taught the older preschool group. Okay, and at Learning Sprouts, 769 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.400 are the classes kind of divided up in some way? 770 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:24.679 They're divided by age with toddlers younger preschool, older preschool. 771 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.800 And is there a particular label to the rooms that 772 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.000 they're in or they referred to in a particular way. 773 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.840 Yes, we were Sunflowers, So your group, the three to 774 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.199 five year olds is the Sunflower group? 775 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:37.559 Yes? 776 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.679 And can you tell us a little bit about how 777 00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:44.480 the day is broken up for kids in the Sunflower group? Sure? 778 00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:48.559 So some children came in early at eight, and then 779 00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:50.599 the rest of the kids came in at nine fifteen, 780 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.880 and then some are half day and some were full day. 781 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.800 And as far as excuse me, your role with the 782 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.159 kids in the Sunflower room merrily interacted with them in 783 00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:05.079 the mornings. Correct, Correct, And when the kids get dropped off, 784 00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:07.119 is it fair to say the bulk of the kids 785 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.400 get dropped off round nine? 786 00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:09.000 Yes? 787 00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:11.599 And does that happen kind of like in a wave 788 00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.599 where parents drop off and they're kind of taken into 789 00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:16.559 the room as a group. 790 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:17.039 Yes. 791 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.320 So the way our classroom was set up, we met them, 792 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:21.360 they were dropped off to us at the door, and. 793 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.280 Then we brought them into our classroom. 794 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.320 And they stayed with you in that classroom throughout the morning, correct, Yes. 795 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:31.360 And the kids who stayed for the afternoon, did they 796 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:33.079 stay with you in the Sunflower room or did they 797 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.159 go someplace else? No, they did not stay with us. 798 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.360 We closed up our room, and our kids, the majority 799 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:40.039 of our kids, we had a couple went over to 800 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:41.840 the Sweetpea room, which was across the hall. 801 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.000 And so are you familiar with Cora Clancier? Were you 802 00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:48.840 familiar with Cora? 803 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:49.599 Yes? 804 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.599 And was she in the Sunflower room with you? Yes? 805 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:56.960 She was drawing your attention to September of twenty twenty two. 806 00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:00.320 What was her schedule if you can work all. 807 00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.039 I believe she was scheduled. I don't remember the days. 808 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:05.119 I think she came three. 809 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:07.480 Days, okay. And for the three days that she came, 810 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:10.519 do you remember if she was just in the morning 811 00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:14.159 group or were there any days that she eventually did 812 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:14.960 an afternoon. 813 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.840 So in the beginning of the year she was three 814 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:20.079 days and then went full day, and then towards the 815 00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:24.000 end of her time in that room she did one 816 00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:26.119 afternoon I believe, and I'm sorry, one half day. 817 00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:28.400 Okay, So fair to say, and fair to say there 818 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.840 were always the two of you assigned to one room 819 00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:32.559 with the number of kids in the class. 820 00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:33.000 Correct. 821 00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:36.280 Now, as far as drop offs, for Cora, did you 822 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.119 have the opportunity to interact with parents that drop off? 823 00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:41.119 Briefly? 824 00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:45.000 And for Cora how who used to drop her off? 825 00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:51.239 Both both parents dropped off, Pat Anne, lindsay. 826 00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:52.599 Did you see one parent more than the other? 827 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:57.079 I recall seeing Pat more, but we took her and 828 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.000 so as we didn't really ask each other who dropped off. 829 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.960 When you say we took turns, you mean yourself in Karen, 830 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:10.440 Karen correct? Now, with the limited interaction at drop off, 831 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:14.119 did you have opportunities to interact in other ways with parents? Yes? 832 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.559 And how did you interact with parents in other ways? 833 00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:20.199 And that's something that can be done on the phone 834 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:20.880 or computer? 835 00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:21.679 Correct? 836 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.880 And were the Clancy's meaning Patrick and Lindsay fairly active 837 00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.000 or responsive to the dojo app Yes? And do you 838 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.360 know or do you recall who would be more responsive? 839 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:32.239 Lindsay? 840 00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:38.239 How was Coorra as a as a preschool student amazing? 841 00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:43.440 She was wonderful? Was she, in your opinion ready for kindergarten? 842 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:44.280 Yes? 843 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.239 I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty third 844 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:54.039 of twenty twenty three. Do you remember Cora coming that day? 845 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:54.480 Yep? 846 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:56.519 And do you recall who dropped her off? 847 00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:57.320 I do not. 848 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.360 Did you notice anything different about Cora that day? 849 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:04.400 Yes? 850 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.559 And what was different she needed to use the bathroom 851 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:09.599 several times more than she normally would. 852 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:13.440 And is the reason why that kind of stood stood 853 00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:17.239 out to you that she used the bathroom more than often? Yes? 854 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:19.400 Because our classroom did not have a bathroom in it, 855 00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:22.559 so we would go down at schedule times before snack 856 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.400 or lunch, and if a child need to go, one 857 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.199 of us would take that child, and that particular day 858 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.039 she went several times extra and. 859 00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:33.719 So between you and Karen, you were kind of taking 860 00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:37.239 her more often to the bathroom. Was she complaining of 861 00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.760 any belly pain or any other issues? She didn't complain, 862 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:43.960 but the fact that she asked to use the bathroom 863 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:50.400 was of note to you. Yes. And when Cora transitioned 864 00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:53.400 that afternoon to go to the sweet Fee room with Stephanie, 865 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.079 did you pass along those observations to the afternoon teacher. 866 00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:59.000 Yes, I did, because that was something that you would 867 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:00.280 want a parent to know was. 868 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:05.280 Unusual, and during that morning group, you didn't feel it 869 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:07.960 was necessary to reach out to either Patrick or Lindsay 870 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.920 to report that, did you know? But you reported it 871 00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:14.000 to Stephanie to pass along for the afternoon. 872 00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:14.480 Correct. 873 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:19.079 And on that particular afternoon, were you at learning Sprouts 874 00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:20.159 during pickup time? 875 00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:20.719 Yes? 876 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.599 I was, and that wasn't always the case, was it. 877 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:24.559 Not every day? 878 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:26.599 But I often would help out in the toddler room 879 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:28.559 if they needed me to stay, and that is what 880 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:29.679 I had done that afternoon. 881 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:33.159 So on that particular afternoon at pickup time, did you 882 00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:36.639 have the occasion to see Lindsay Clancy, Yes, I did, 883 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:39.039 And did you have an opportunity to speak with her? 884 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:39.360 Yep. 885 00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:41.760 We spoke quickly and I just was letting her know, 886 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.719 and she she did already know, but we just spoke quickly. 887 00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:47.800 That she had gone a few times, so you were 888 00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:49.800 letting her know about Core going to the bathroom. 889 00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:50.280 Correct. 890 00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:52.840 And how did she respond when you told her. 891 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:57.280 That she's She said, I don't remember exactly the words, 892 00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:00.239 but basically that she wasn't glad that she wasn't feeling well, 893 00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:02.519 but she already had a doctor's appointment the next day 894 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:03.679 so that she would let them know. 895 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.239 And that interaction was fairly brief. 896 00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:09.000 Correct. 897 00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:15.920 But appropriate, and they left that day. Did you notice 898 00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:19.079 anything different about Lindsay Clancy after you told her that, 899 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:21.559 or in that brief interaction than any of your other 900 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:22.480 interactions with her. 901 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:23.159 No. 902 00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:29.440 And you are a mandated reporter at the preschool, correct, 903 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:31.840 So if a child were to come in with any 904 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:38.079 concerning Marx or bruises, or was saying something about things 905 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.639 that were happening in the household, you would be required 906 00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:43.559 to report those to the Department of Children and Families. 907 00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:48.440 Any concerns or reports regarding the Clancy family at all 908 00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:50.800 during the time that you were a chorus teacher. Never, 909 00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.639 And do you recall of cour ever mentioned to you 910 00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:59.400 during class during the time that you were teaching in 911 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:01.519 the morning class. This is a time when her mom 912 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.400 was in the hospital. Yes, And what do you recall 913 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:05.840 about that? 914 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.880 Just that she was she missed her mom, and she 915 00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:11.239 was vocal about that. 916 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:16.239 Do you remember about when that was that she said 917 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.159 something about her mom being in the hospital. 918 00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.599 It was I can't remember. It was in December January. 919 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.519 I just remember that that was it was said. 920 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:27.679 But fair to say it was closer in time to 921 00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.079 the last time you saw her, as opposed to the 922 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:33.639 beginning of the school year. Yes, just to briefly go 923 00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:35.480 back to Cora's schedule. I know you say you can't 924 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:40.239 remember exactly which day as she came, but by January 925 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:43.800 of twenty twenty three, Korra was coming for three full 926 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.960 days and one half day. Correct, Yes, thank you, I. 927 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:53.039 Mister Wadington, no questions, Thank you, all right, thank you 928 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.119 and me said yeah, thank. 929 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.519 You, Uncle Tall. 930 00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:56.960 Stephanie Williams, isn't. 931 00:49:56.760 --> 00:50:15.760 It good morning? 932 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:23.440 Ask you to speak into that microphone voice? Pull that down, all. 933 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:27.360 Right, thank you, good morning, good morning. Could you please 934 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.719 tell the jurors your first and last name Stephanie Williams 935 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:33.360 and Williams that's just common spelling. 936 00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:33.800 Yes. 937 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:35.679 What city of your town do you live in? 938 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:37.840 I live in Sagamore Beach. 939 00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:39.440 And what do you do for work? 940 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:41.760 I'm a pre K teacher. 941 00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:43.360 And where do you work. 942 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:47.159 At Learning Sprouts Children's Center and where is that located 943 00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.320 in Docksbury? 944 00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:50.920 And how long have you worked for Learning. 945 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:54.199 Sprouts About six and a half years. 946 00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:57.559 What age group do you teach? 947 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.800 I generally teach the pre K children, the four year 948 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:04.559 olds that are going to be training five and going 949 00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:05.400 to kindergarten. 950 00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.679 And at the Learning Sprouts Preschool. Fair to say that 951 00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.559 the different rooms are given a name. 952 00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:16.719 Yeah, okay, And what. 953 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.920 Room did you work in or do you work in currently? 954 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:20.400 Right now? 955 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.679 I work in the Sweet Pea classroom. When I first 956 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.800 started there, I worked in the Orange classroom. 957 00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:32.039 And I'm going to draw your attention to the fall 958 00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:35.639 of twenty twenty two, September into January of twenty twenty three. 959 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:37.119 Were you in the sweete room then? 960 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:37.760 Yes? 961 00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:40.239 And how many people would teachers would be in the 962 00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:41.159 Sweetpew room with you? 963 00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.159 I was the only teacher in that room. 964 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:47.000 Was it a full day program for you in the 965 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:47.760 Sweetpea room? 966 00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:48.360 Yes? 967 00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.400 And were there some kids of that age group, the 968 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.960 four and five year olds that would only be there 969 00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:55.920 in your Sweetpee room in the afternoon? 970 00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:56.440 Yes? 971 00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:59.480 Those kids? Where would they usually be in the morning. 972 00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:01.320 In the Sunflower class? 973 00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:06.320 And fair to say the Sunflower class was more academic 974 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.719 curriculum based and the Sweetpea room was not. 975 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.480 Yes, Now in the afternoon, yes. 976 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:15.840 So tell us a little bit about what afternoons would 977 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:16.119 be like. 978 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:23.559 Basically, they would go outside to play, they would be 979 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:26.239 playing in the room, they would take rest time, and 980 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:31.400 then they would get up have an afternoon snack, and 981 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:34.880 then if there was time permitting, they would be able 982 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:39.159 to play in the classroom or color, do art work. 983 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:44.199 And generally the afternoon kids in the Sweetpea room, they'd 984 00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:48.000 go until four, right, Yes, and that was the time 985 00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:49.920 for pickup for most of the kids. 986 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.320 Yes, that's when we closed at four o'clock. 987 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.400 Okay, did you know Cora Clancy? 988 00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:56.199 Yes? 989 00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:56.599 I did. 990 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:58.039 And how did you know her? 991 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:02.920 I was or his teacher when I first started at 992 00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:06.719 Learning Sports when she was three, and then she came 993 00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:13.960 into my classroom in the afternoons from September to January. 994 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:17.320 So from September of twenty twenty two, when she's still 995 00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:20.760 four into January of twenty twenty three, after she had 996 00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:27.480 turned five, she would come three afternoons into your classroom. 997 00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.639 It was first three, then it switched to four afternoons. 998 00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:34.159 Now when she would come to your classroom in the afternoon, 999 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:39.239 what would she be coming into is it snack time, naptime? 1000 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:40.480 Rest time? 1001 00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:43.400 Usually would be getting ready for rest. 1002 00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.239 And would she be brought to your classroom by one 1003 00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.599 of the teachers downstairs or at the Sunflower room. Yes, 1004 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.960 And you're familiar with Susan and Karen as the teachers 1005 00:53:54.960 --> 00:54:00.440 in the Sunflowers. Now, how would you describe Cora? 1006 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:07.199 She was a sweet little girl who loved her little brothers. 1007 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:14.039 She loved to draw, play with babies, play princess She 1008 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:19.440 liked Princess Sophia. How did you know she liked Princess 1009 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:23.440 Sophia because she would pretend to be Princess Sophia and 1010 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:26.679 she always talked about it, and it actually bought a 1011 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:31.760 Princess Sophia puzzle for her. 1012 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:35.679 Now, I'm going to draw your attention to January of 1013 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:39.800 twenty twenty three, more specifically the twenty third. Did Cora 1014 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:41.440 come to your classroom that afternoon? 1015 00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:42.000 Yes? 1016 00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.039 She did, And did you observe anything different about her? 1017 00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:49.960 She hadn't been failing well on The teachers from the 1018 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:54.440 Sunflower class had told me that she wasn't failing that well. 1019 00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:56.800 Did you observe that of her as well? 1020 00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:57.159 Well? 1021 00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:59.239 She did nap, and then she. 1022 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:03.639 When all the other children were getting up and getting 1023 00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:07.639 ready to leave, you know, for the day, she was 1024 00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:10.960 reluctant to get up off her cot and was still 1025 00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:12.360 there when her mother came together. 1026 00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:16.119 Did Cora say anything to you why she wasn't feeling well? 1027 00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:19.800 If she just she I think she just said her 1028 00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:20.760 tummy hurt. 1029 00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:23.639 And so you just kind of let her rest for 1030 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:24.320 the afternoon. 1031 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:28.320 And so who picked her up that day, Lindsay. 1032 00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:31.679 And so normally and pick up do they come to 1033 00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:33.440 the does a parent come to the classroom to pick 1034 00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:34.039 up the child? 1035 00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:38.119 They usually come to the door and we send the 1036 00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:38.840 child out. 1037 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:41.559 And that would just be the door of the classroom 1038 00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:41.840 of the. 1039 00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.920 Building, because I had a door that led outside. 1040 00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:50.039 So in this particular afternoon, Lindsay, Lindsay came to pick 1041 00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:53.079 her up at the door. And so, what if anything 1042 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:54.320 did you tell Lindsay. 1043 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:59.159 I told her that Cora had napped and she had 1044 00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.599 said she wasn't failing well, that the other teachers had 1045 00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:07.119 told me that she hadn't been failing well, and that 1046 00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.079 she was still laying on her cot. 1047 00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.039 And what did Lindsay say or do after you told 1048 00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:12.400 her that? 1049 00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:16.559 She came into the classroom and picked her up off 1050 00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:20.800 the cot and said, oh, baby, come on, let's go 1051 00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:21.719 get to usin and. 1052 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:22.320 We'll go home. 1053 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:26.239 And so at that moment when she came to the classroom, 1054 00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:27.840 she hadn't already picked Dawson up. 1055 00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:30.880 No, she went upstairs to pick duson. 1056 00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:33.840 Up, and when she came into the classroom and told 1057 00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:36.880 you that and picked up Cora, did you notice anything 1058 00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:38.800 different about her than any of the other times you 1059 00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:39.840 had interacted with her. 1060 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:40.440 No. 1061 00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:43.599 In any of the time that you had interacted with 1062 00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:47.000 Lindsay Clancy from September of twenty twenty two to January 1063 00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:49.920 twenty third of twenty twenty three, did you notice anything 1064 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:51.480 different about her. 1065 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:52.159 No. 1066 00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:56.079 She was just a very loving mother who cared about 1067 00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:56.840 our children. 1068 00:56:57.199 --> 00:57:00.360 And did she share anything with you about about her 1069 00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:02.480 family or about anything that was going on in her 1070 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:06.079 household at that time? Now, and you, as a preschool teacher, 1071 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:09.239 are and data reporter, correct, Yes, I am, so if 1072 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:12.559 you were to observe something either on the child or 1073 00:57:12.639 --> 00:57:15.199 from what the child said or behavior for a parent, 1074 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:16.800 you would be required to report that. 1075 00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:17.360 Yes. 1076 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:19.880 And as far as the Clancy family went, you didn't 1077 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.320 notice anything, and you didn't report anything, did you. No, 1078 00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:26.480 Thank you, it's raising. 1079 00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:27.880 Thank you very much. 1080 00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.400 Right, thank you, me stepped down, Thank you, watch your 1081 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.039 step come well. 1082 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:35.719 Called Andrea Hennigan. 1083 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:37.960 Good morning, good morning. Right. 1084 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.800 They asked you speaking to that microphone, keep your voice 1085 00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:42.559 up so all the jurors. 1086 00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.719 Can hear you. Okay, yes, all right, perfect, miss Bray. 1087 00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:47.719 Thank you, good morning. Can you please stay and spell 1088 00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:48.599 your name for the record. 1089 00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:54.280 Andrea Hennigan A N dre e A chi n nig 1090 00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:57.840 A N and your date of birth March eleventh, nineteen 1091 00:57:57.920 --> 00:57:58.599 seventy six. 1092 00:57:59.079 --> 00:57:59.960 What do you do for a living? 1093 00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:02.039 I'm a registered nurse. 1094 00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:06.639 And where do you work Massachusetts General Hospital and do 1095 00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:08.519 you work at any specific department there? 1096 00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:11.119 Labor and delivery? How long have you been a labor 1097 00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:15.159 and delivery nurse at mass General? Twenty five years? And 1098 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:21.119 as part of your training and work in labor and delivery, 1099 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:31.400 are you trained in recognizing or or helping new mothers 1100 00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:34.400 who seem to be having issues with postpartum. 1101 00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:37.000 Do you mean postpartum depression? 1102 00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:41.760 Yes, I don't have formal training in that area, and 1103 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:46.559 I mostly see women before they give birth and immediately afterwards, 1104 00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:49.079 in the first two hours after they give birth. 1105 00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:51.960 If they come back to the hospital. 1106 00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:57.599 During the postpartum period for a concern, we do screen 1107 00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:00.920 patients for postpartum depression, and is. 1108 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:04.079 That all the nurses that work for the Masternal Hospital 1109 00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:08.400 Labor and Delivery unit are able to do those great 1110 00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.239 screenings for postpridum depression. 1111 00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:19.199 Yes, we ask patients questions about if they're suffering from 1112 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:23.079 depression or anxiety, and if they have any feelings of 1113 00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:25.440 wanting to harm themselves or anyone else. 1114 00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:30.360 That's a standard admission question. And if these patients respond 1115 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:33.800 that yes, they are having issues with depression, anxiety, or 1116 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.079 wanting to harm themselves or others, what do you do 1117 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.039 with those patients? Do you refer them somewhere or do 1118 00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:41.119 you give them materials? 1119 00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:44.760 What do you do while we would talk more about 1120 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:47.960 their symptoms with them, and then the first step would 1121 00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:52.400 probably to be alert the provider who's caring for them, 1122 00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:55.239 either the doctor or the nurse midwife in our setting, 1123 00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.400 and get social work involved. 1124 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:03.119 Now, while you were working at Masternal Hospital, did you 1125 01:00:03.159 --> 01:00:04.280 work with Lindsay Clancy? 1126 01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:04.760 Yes? 1127 01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:05.159 I did. 1128 01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:06.079 How long did you. 1129 01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:10.119 Work with her the whole time she worked on our unit, 1130 01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:12.119 which I believe was seven years? 1131 01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:14.920 And so when you say our unit, she also worked 1132 01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:16.480 in labor and delivery with you? Is that correct? 1133 01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:16.840 Yes? 1134 01:00:18.519 --> 01:00:22.920 And in addition to seeing her at work, would you 1135 01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:26.480 also socialize with her occasionally outside of work? Occasionally? 1136 01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:26.920 Yes. 1137 01:00:28.679 --> 01:00:33.519 Directing your attention to after Mss Clancy gave birth to 1138 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:37.519 Callen which May of twenty twenty two. So after May 1139 01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:40.440 of twenty twenty two, did you reach out to her 1140 01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:41.719 talk to her in any way? 1141 01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:43.599 Yes? 1142 01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:52.360 I saw Lindsay twice from when Callen was born until January. 1143 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:55.719 I saw her in June and in November, and we 1144 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:57.800 would send each other text messages. 1145 01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:03.239 When you saw her in June, where was that? 1146 01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:04.360 That was at her home? 1147 01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:06.079 I brought some. 1148 01:01:06.199 --> 01:01:09.440 Lunch for her and visited with her and the baby 1149 01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:13.119 and Patrick and Dawson were home. 1150 01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:16.800 And how was Lindsay's demeanor during that visit? 1151 01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:18.440 Very good? 1152 01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:20.679 Was she her typical self? 1153 01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:21.440 Yes? 1154 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:23.840 And how long was that visit? 1155 01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:24.119 For? 1156 01:01:24.760 --> 01:01:25.480 Approximately? 1157 01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:29.400 Maybe two hours or something like that. 1158 01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:32.920 And you said the next time you saw her was 1159 01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:35.360 in November of twenty twenty two. Is that correct? Correct? 1160 01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:40.159 And where was that? It was a restaurant and hang on, 1161 01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:43.320 we met for lunch. And when you met with her 1162 01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:46.760 for lunch in November of twenty twenty two, did Miss 1163 01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:49.119 Clancy talk to you about some issues she was having 1164 01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:50.880 with sleep and in anxiety? 1165 01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:51.639 Yes? 1166 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:52.079 She did. 1167 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:53.400 What did she tell you about. 1168 01:01:53.199 --> 01:02:02.800 That during the lunch specific I don't remember her exact symptoms. 1169 01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:09.880 Our conversation surrounded her upcoming return to work, and Lindsay 1170 01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:14.880 was feeling that she wasn't in a mental state ready 1171 01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:19.199 to go and take care of patients. She talked about 1172 01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:24.280 insomnia and some not feeling herself. I believe she might 1173 01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:27.159 have used the words like brain fog or something like that. 1174 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.760 And while you were having lunch with her and having 1175 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:33.800 this discussion, did you ever have any trouble understanding what 1176 01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:34.400 she was saying? 1177 01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:34.840 No? 1178 01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:37.920 Did she ever appear to have difficulty understanding what you 1179 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:38.960 were saying in response? 1180 01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:39.360 No? 1181 01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:42.599 Was there anything different about her speech pattern? 1182 01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:44.639 Not that I recall. 1183 01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:52.639 When you were discussing these issues with Lindsay about having 1184 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.920 some insomnia and being concerned about going back to work, 1185 01:02:56.599 --> 01:03:00.360 did you give her any advice or do anything to help. 1186 01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:04.880 Yes, it was myself and two other nurses that we 1187 01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:08.280 work with who Lindsay was friends with outside of work, 1188 01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:11.800 and we were all encouraging her to get the help 1189 01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:16.360 and support that she needed with medication if needed, and 1190 01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:20.239 therapists and giving her any ideas we could think of 1191 01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:24.719 in our personal and professional lives that may help her. 1192 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:29.320 And did Lindsay tell you that she was looking to 1193 01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:32.360 find some type of medication that would help her sleep 1194 01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:34.000 and help her with her anxiety. 1195 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:41.360 Yes, I believe we talked about medication and she was 1196 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:45.880 going to be meeting with a new therapist shortly. 1197 01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:50.199 And during this conversation or after it happened. Did you 1198 01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:52.599 ever have any concerns about her harming herself? 1199 01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:53.039 No? 1200 01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:56.119 Did you ever have any concerns about her harming the children? No? 1201 01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:02.480 Did you give her some names of obstetric social workers? 1202 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:04.400 I did after our lunch. 1203 01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:08.119 I recall that I reached out to another friend of 1204 01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:14.000 mine who had had a pregnancy loss that was challenging 1205 01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:19.159 for her and had met with obstetrical specific social workers 1206 01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:23.920 and support groups, and I asked that woman, could you 1207 01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:24.880 share those names? 1208 01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:29.320 And I sent them to Lindsay. Did you have some 1209 01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:34.039 text messages between yourself and Lindsay around Thanksgiving of twenty 1210 01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:37.079 twenty two in which she told you about a program 1211 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:38.000 she was going to try. 1212 01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:45.639 We did have text messages around Thanksgiving. I believe the 1213 01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:49.599 program you're referring to was something that her mother in 1214 01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:54.639 law had told her about at Selshore Hospital that was 1215 01:04:54.800 --> 01:05:02.599 more specific to perinatal issues rather than a general social worker, 1216 01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:04.519 someone who specialized in this area. 1217 01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:11.440 What does perryvatal mean during pregnancy, birth, and after birth. 1218 01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:16.360 So this was a program more focused on women either 1219 01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:21.239 during their pregnancy, while birth, during birth, or right after birth. 1220 01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:23.760 As far as you know, I mean, as far as 1221 01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:24.679 I understood it. 1222 01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:28.719 I just understood it to mean someone who was familiar 1223 01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:33.920 more with postpartum depression or anxiety, was my understanding. 1224 01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:41.000 And did you also receive some text messages from Lindsay 1225 01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:45.760 Clancy right after New Year's on January second, twenty twenty three? 1226 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:46.239 Yes? 1227 01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:46.639 I did? 1228 01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.920 And can you tell us what that exchange was? 1229 01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:49.760 Again? 1230 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:53.119 That was with myself and Lindsay and the two other 1231 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:57.559 nurses who she had confided in, and we asked her 1232 01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:01.440 how her holidays were and could we get together again 1233 01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:04.960 in the new year? And she said, I can't get 1234 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.480 together right now because I'm involved in an intensive program, 1235 01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:10.639 but hopefully soon. 1236 01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:14.880 And did she wish you a happy New Year? She 1237 01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:18.320 may have, I do not recall. And did she tell 1238 01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:21.039 you that she was in fact at that time at 1239 01:06:21.079 --> 01:06:24.119 McLean Hospital or did she just leave it more vague 1240 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:26.400 that it was just an intense program. 1241 01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:31.039 I believe it was an intense program. I did not 1242 01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:33.480 know the name of the facility at that time. 1243 01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:36.280 Did you at that time know that she was currently 1244 01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:37.440 at a hospital. 1245 01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:42.679 I don't recall what I knew then versus what I 1246 01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:43.280 know now. 1247 01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:51.480 Did you also speak with Lindsay on January twenty third, 1248 01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:52.679 twenty twenty three. 1249 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:55.840 I did not speak to Lindsay. I sent her a 1250 01:06:55.840 --> 01:06:57.840 text message on January twenty third. 1251 01:06:58.199 --> 01:07:00.880 And what did you say in your text message? 1252 01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:05.320 I'm paraphrasing, but I believe I said, Hi, I've been 1253 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:10.239 thinking of you, wondering if you're still in the daily program. 1254 01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:12.840 I believe I said so. Maybe I didn't realize it 1255 01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:14.400 was impatient. 1256 01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:18.960 And she responded, And what was her response? 1257 01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:24.760 Again, I'm paraphrasing, but she said something like, I'm no 1258 01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:29.000 longer in the program. I'm continuing to work with my 1259 01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:35.480 psychiatrists to find the right medication that will allow me 1260 01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:38.360 to sleep at night but still function during the day. 1261 01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:44.760 I've had a lot of bad or negative side effects 1262 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:47.000 from the medication, so I've had to come off of 1263 01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:49.199 them and go on new ones, and it's been very 1264 01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:52.920 difficult or has taken a long time, or something like that. 1265 01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:58.000 And after that those text messages that were exchange on 1266 01:07:58.039 --> 01:08:00.800 the twenty third, did you have any concerns that she 1267 01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:01.840 was going to harm herself? 1268 01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:02.039 No? 1269 01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:07.239 The tone of the text messages. Were they more positive 1270 01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:08.960 and hopeful that things were going to work out on 1271 01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:10.800 the right medications. 1272 01:08:12.599 --> 01:08:18.039 I don't know that they were more positive than previous times. 1273 01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:19.960 I believe that Lindsay. 1274 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:23.319 Was always hopeful that she would get the care that 1275 01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:24.119 she was seeking. 1276 01:08:24.199 --> 01:08:26.600 So I don't know that the tone was different that day, 1277 01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:29.319 but it wasn't a negative tone. It was that same 1278 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:30.399 kind of hopeful tone. 1279 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:37.399 Yes, as far as I remember, thank you, thank you, tream. 1280 01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:41.920 Ready, good morning. 1281 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:53.520 So even during the uh say, the difficult times that 1282 01:08:53.600 --> 01:08:57.600 she had, she was always trying to be hopeful and 1283 01:08:58.199 --> 01:08:59.039 always tried. 1284 01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:01.279 To have a pause devout look on her health. 1285 01:09:02.399 --> 01:09:03.560 That was my impression. 1286 01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:06.199 Yes, and you obviously are a good friend. 1287 01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:08.119 Yes, I believe so. 1288 01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:12.359 And you've known her for what seven years? Nine years now? 1289 01:09:12.439 --> 01:09:12.560 Right? 1290 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:18.159 Yes, I believe I believe since twenty fifteen if that's 1291 01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:19.960 when she began working at mass General. 1292 01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:22.560 Right, so she was like a twenty four year old 1293 01:09:22.600 --> 01:09:26.000 kid when she first started there. Yes, and you basically 1294 01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:29.239 knew her right at a nursing school all the way 1295 01:09:29.319 --> 01:09:32.520 up through Yeah, so she finally had the baby, the 1296 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:35.600 last baby, right, Can you tell us what was her 1297 01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:38.159 work ethic? Was she a good nurse. Was she a 1298 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:41.159 caring nurse? Was she tell us what your observations were. 1299 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:43.319 Granted that your friend and you might be biased, but 1300 01:09:43.359 --> 01:09:44.199 tell us what you thought. 1301 01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:52.479 Yes, Lindsay loved being a nurse and was excellent at it. 1302 01:09:52.479 --> 01:09:56.279 It was a degree, a second degree for her to 1303 01:09:56.520 --> 01:10:02.079 go to nursing school. And you could tell with Lindsay 1304 01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:05.279 it was more of a calling that she really cared 1305 01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:10.159 so deeply, specifically about caring for pregnant women and women 1306 01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:14.600 giving birth. She was very attentive to all of her 1307 01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:18.960 patients' needs. She was very smart, and mostly she was 1308 01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:20.640 incredibly nurturing and caring. 1309 01:10:22.119 --> 01:10:22.439 Thank you. 1310 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.680 And during the period of time in the fall of 1311 01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:34.439 twenty twenty two up through Thanksgiving of twenty two and 1312 01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:35.680 then into twenty. 1313 01:10:35.439 --> 01:10:37.840 Three, you, obviously as a good. 1314 01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:41.199 Friend, stayed in close contact with her, texting, seeing her 1315 01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:42.520 dinner at lunches. 1316 01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:42.920 And everything right. 1317 01:10:43.479 --> 01:10:46.800 Yes, and then when you and some of the other 1318 01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:51.600 nurses would would go to a lunch for example, if 1319 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.560 I understand correctly, on one of the luncheons that you 1320 01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.920 had in the fall of twenty two, she was telling 1321 01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:00.720 or sharing with you the fact that she was going through. 1322 01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:01.560 A difficult period. 1323 01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:06.039 Yes, I told you that she was not in a 1324 01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:08.439 good mental state, that she had a lot of insomnir 1325 01:11:08.520 --> 01:11:11.319 and she even described it as brain fog. 1326 01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:13.520 Right, Yes, I believe so. 1327 01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:19.880 She definitely used those words in our text messages, you know, 1328 01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:22.119 as the fall progressed. But I believe she used those 1329 01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:25.560 words during the lunch. She definitely said that she was 1330 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:28.560 in a difficult mental place and wouldn't be able to 1331 01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:30.039 didn't think she'd be able to go. 1332 01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:30.720 Back to work. 1333 01:11:31.039 --> 01:11:34.239 And she told you that she was actually actively treating 1334 01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:40.159 with medical personnel. Did she say a psychiatrist, psychologist, or 1335 01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:41.319 just seeing doctors or what? 1336 01:11:41.359 --> 01:11:41.880 Did she say? 1337 01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:43.359 Yes, she. 1338 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:49.760 Talked about therapists, She talked about going on medication. At 1339 01:11:49.800 --> 01:11:54.359 some point in that month of November, she said she 1340 01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:56.760 had even gone to the emergency department. 1341 01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:02.119 Did she tell you that she was having negative side 1342 01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:05.479 effects with the medication that she had been prescribed by 1343 01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:06.399 these doctors. 1344 01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:07.399 She did. 1345 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.199 She did not elaborate on the side effects, but she 1346 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:12.520 did say that multiple times. 1347 01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:15.000 So as close as you were for all those years 1348 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:19.159 working together, and you guys worked together through the COVID too, right, Yes, 1349 01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:21.159 is that a bonding experience for nurses? 1350 01:12:21.279 --> 01:12:25.760 Yes, during that period of time. 1351 01:12:27.279 --> 01:12:29.960 Did you ever observe her was she was she a complainer, like, 1352 01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:32.239 would she come and complain to you or was she 1353 01:12:32.319 --> 01:12:35.680 pretty much private but would share her opinions of what 1354 01:12:35.720 --> 01:12:36.880 was happening inside of her. 1355 01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:42.600 She was not a complainer about work or home or anything. 1356 01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:47.520 But we were friends and she did share more personal 1357 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:48.239 details with me. 1358 01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:55.119 And when she was working, would you, guys, be working 1359 01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:56.039 on the night shift. 1360 01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:58.000 Or was she work in the afternoon or the night shift? 1361 01:12:58.079 --> 01:12:58.520 Night shift? 1362 01:12:59.079 --> 01:13:00.920 So when you did you do you ever see her 1363 01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:06.199 go on her phone and access cameras to see what 1364 01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:07.560 was going on at home with. 1365 01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:09.039 The babies or anything like that. 1366 01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:09.520 Yes? 1367 01:13:10.239 --> 01:13:12.680 Is that something that she would do on a regular basis, 1368 01:13:12.680 --> 01:13:15.359 staying in touch with the family and looking at the cameras. 1369 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:15.920 Yes. 1370 01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:18.720 Did she ever tell you why she was doing that? 1371 01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:23.600 Not specifically, okay, to. 1372 01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:25.840 Your appearance or to your observation if you had to 1373 01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:27.560 be very concerned about her kids. 1374 01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:28.079 Right, Yes? 1375 01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:32.479 Did you ever hear her complain that she wanted to 1376 01:13:33.079 --> 01:13:36.359 leave behind the life that she had and basically move 1377 01:13:36.399 --> 01:13:37.960 on something better. 1378 01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:39.760 Oh, no, Lindsay. 1379 01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:42.680 From the time I met her, as a young woman, 1380 01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:46.760 very much desired to be a mother and have a family. 1381 01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:50.000 And she did share with you that her mother in 1382 01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:54.960 law actually referred her to somebody for some help as well. 1383 01:13:54.960 --> 01:14:00.840 Correct. Yes, in the holiday period, I stayed in touch. 1384 01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:03.479 Again, you were texting her, and that's when she was 1385 01:14:04.640 --> 01:14:06.960 Now we know she was in McLean hospital, but she 1386 01:14:07.079 --> 01:14:09.079 told you she was in an intensive. 1387 01:14:08.600 --> 01:14:09.319 Program, right. 1388 01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:10.239 Correct. 1389 01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:13.039 In other words, she didn't say I can't go to 1390 01:14:13.119 --> 01:14:15.520 lunch with you guys because I'm in a mental hospital. 1391 01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:17.720 She basically said, I'm treating my problems. 1392 01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:26.800 Correct to your years of dealing with Lindsay and seeing 1393 01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:31.279 her with her kids and her family, what's your opinion. 1394 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:31.760 Of her as a mother? 1395 01:14:32.920 --> 01:14:38.640 Lindsay was a very loving, caring mother. This is exactly 1396 01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:42.640 what she wanted to have met. She wanted a big family. 1397 01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:46.880 She was happy to have her children close in age. 1398 01:14:47.479 --> 01:14:48.640 Thank you, thank you. 1399 01:14:49.479 --> 01:14:51.600 Yeah, redirect ya, thank you. 1400 01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:52.439 Thank you. 1401 01:14:56.520 --> 01:14:58.079 Almost called Bethany to call us. 1402 01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:08.119 Yeah, what do just that? 1403 01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:08.600 Please? 1404 01:15:11.800 --> 01:15:15.159 All right, good morning, good morning, council. 1405 01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:17.239 Thank you. Can you please state and spell your name 1406 01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:17.439 for the. 1407 01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:23.520 Record, Bethany decalobus b E T H A N Y D. 1408 01:15:23.479 --> 01:15:26.479 E C O L L I b U S in 1409 01:15:26.600 --> 01:15:27.520 your date of birth. 1410 01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:30.640 Six eighty nine. What do you do for work? 1411 01:15:31.239 --> 01:15:33.079 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 1412 01:15:34.359 --> 01:15:36.399 And do you have your own practice? I do have 1413 01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.680 a private practice. How long have you been in this 1414 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:39.279 line of work. 1415 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:43.000 I've had the private practice for about six years, but 1416 01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:45.359 I've been licensed for close to twelve. 1417 01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:49.520 And in your practice? Do you do in person therapy 1418 01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:54.159 or telehealth therapy? I do telehealth therapy right now. Do 1419 01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:56.239 you know Lindsay Clancy? 1420 01:15:56.479 --> 01:15:56.720 I do. 1421 01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:57.760 How do you know her? 1422 01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:02.239 We were friends met as new moms in the same town. 1423 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:07.079 Would that be dug spray? Yes? And how often would 1424 01:16:07.159 --> 01:16:11.479 you see her? I'd say probably weekly? And where would 1425 01:16:11.479 --> 01:16:11.840 that occur? 1426 01:16:13.119 --> 01:16:17.479 Our kids were involved in similar activities, music classes, gymnastics classes, 1427 01:16:18.399 --> 01:16:19.760 we'd schedule play dates. 1428 01:16:20.439 --> 01:16:27.239 What was her typical demeanor? She was active, engaged, friendly. 1429 01:16:28.159 --> 01:16:33.319 Did you ever notice any distinctive changes in her rate 1430 01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:34.960 of speech or the way she spoke? 1431 01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:35.880 No? 1432 01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:42.279 Did you ever see any extreme changes in energy or 1433 01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:44.800 weird behavior? 1434 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.439 No changes in weird behavior. But I did notice that 1435 01:16:50.199 --> 01:16:51.239 she appeared more tired. 1436 01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:55.159 Could you repeat that? 1437 01:16:55.600 --> 01:16:55.800 Oh? 1438 01:16:55.840 --> 01:16:57.399 I was answering the second part of your question. I 1439 01:16:57.399 --> 01:17:01.680 didn't notice any changes in behavior, but I did notice 1440 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:03.359 her appearing more tired over time? 1441 01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:08.840 And was that after she had callen or before that afterwards? 1442 01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:14.319 And how often would you see her after she had 1443 01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:19.239 callen weekly? So still still going to the same types 1444 01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:21.840 of places where you would run into her and engage 1445 01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:22.720 with her. Is that correct? 1446 01:17:22.920 --> 01:17:23.199 Yes? 1447 01:17:23.399 --> 01:17:27.920 And other than seeing seeming more tired, was there any 1448 01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:31.760 other change in her demeanor or personality or behavior. Did 1449 01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:33.920 she tell you during that time that she was having 1450 01:17:34.079 --> 01:17:37.439 trouble sleeping? Yes? And did she give you any specifics 1451 01:17:37.479 --> 01:17:37.760 on that. 1452 01:17:40.600 --> 01:17:44.399 Just that it was very difficult to get to get sleep, 1453 01:17:44.439 --> 01:17:48.520 difficult to fall asleep, even when kids were asleep, and 1454 01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:50.359 that it was just a it was an ongoing struggle. 1455 01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:53.720 Did that cause concern for you at that point? 1456 01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:59.760 I think for a period of time it felt normal, 1457 01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:02.800 but after it seemed to continue and not let up 1458 01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:05.159 for her, I definitely worried about her and was concerned. 1459 01:18:05.880 --> 01:18:07.720 When you say it seems normal, what do you mean 1460 01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:08.159 by that? 1461 01:18:08.279 --> 01:18:12.159 At first, I would say for a period of time, 1462 01:18:12.279 --> 01:18:16.720 seemed reminiscent of you know, sleep truggles that you know 1463 01:18:16.840 --> 01:18:19.760 I remember having and that you know remember friends talking about. 1464 01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:23.159 But I think over time I started to worry more 1465 01:18:23.279 --> 01:18:25.720 and realized that it wasn't improving for her? 1466 01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:29.359 And what you're talking about is it? You know, typically 1467 01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:33.119 after having a baby, new moms are tired from you know, 1468 01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:35.359 late night feedings and changings and all of that. 1469 01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:36.880 Yes. 1470 01:18:37.039 --> 01:18:39.359 And then with Lindsay she stayed tired. 1471 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:40.600 Yes. 1472 01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:45.680 Did she talk to you about seeking out help from doctors? 1473 01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:46.399 She did? 1474 01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:48.960 And did she talk to you about seeking out medication 1475 01:18:49.079 --> 01:18:49.520 to help? 1476 01:18:50.199 --> 01:18:50.520 Yes? 1477 01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:55.000 And do you recall any specifics about those conversations about 1478 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:57.479 what types of doctors or what types of medication she 1479 01:18:57.520 --> 01:18:58.000 was seeking. 1480 01:18:58.880 --> 01:19:00.960 I don't know about the diferent types of doctors of 1481 01:19:01.039 --> 01:19:02.600 the types of medications. 1482 01:19:03.319 --> 01:19:08.239 Did you ever talk to her and she related that 1483 01:19:08.279 --> 01:19:09.840 she was looking to find a therapist. 1484 01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:10.760 Yes? 1485 01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:13.479 And do you know if she ever found a therapist? 1486 01:19:14.760 --> 01:19:17.640 At some point it did sound like she had found 1487 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:19.760 a provider to work. 1488 01:19:19.640 --> 01:19:24.279 With being a therapist yourself. Did you ever offer to 1489 01:19:24.680 --> 01:19:26.680 give some referrals or anything like that or did she 1490 01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:33.840 ask for any I can't remember. And you said that 1491 01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:39.199 she continued to appear tired, correct, But other than appearing 1492 01:19:39.279 --> 01:19:41.880 tired as the weeks went by, did you observe her 1493 01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:44.920 and having any problem interacting with people or doing the 1494 01:19:44.920 --> 01:19:47.399 typical behaviors that you would do at the events you 1495 01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:48.520 would usually see are at. 1496 01:19:49.039 --> 01:19:49.119 No. 1497 01:19:50.319 --> 01:19:53.159 Did she appear to have any trouble doing day to 1498 01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:57.279 day tasks or interacting with anyone, not that I saw. 1499 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:01.840 Did she ever tell you that she was depressed or suicidal? 1500 01:20:02.800 --> 01:20:02.880 No? 1501 01:20:05.079 --> 01:20:06.720 Did she ever tell you that she had thoughts of 1502 01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:13.159 harming anyone else? Nor did her physical appearance change in 1503 01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:18.840 any way, not that I noticed. When you would engage 1504 01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:21.920 with her, have conversations with her, were they usually in 1505 01:20:21.960 --> 01:20:24.840 person or text? Or both? It was a mix of both. 1506 01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:28.760 And did you ever have trouble understanding her, either in 1507 01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:32.159 person or in a text? Did she ever appear to 1508 01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:33.760 have trouble understanding you? 1509 01:20:33.800 --> 01:20:33.880 No. 1510 01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:38.479 At some point in time, did you have dinner with 1511 01:20:38.600 --> 01:20:42.880 Lindsay and a woman named Eron Renault sometime in November? Yes? 1512 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:47.600 And was that something that the three of you typically did? Yes? 1513 01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:50.880 How often would you do that? Probably once every couple 1514 01:20:50.920 --> 01:20:53.399 of months. Was this the first time you'd done that 1515 01:20:53.439 --> 01:20:58.520 since Callen was born? I can't remember, okay? And what 1516 01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:00.800 was Lindsay's demeanor during that dinner? 1517 01:21:04.039 --> 01:21:06.119 She was engaged in conversation with us? 1518 01:21:10.279 --> 01:21:14.880 Do you recall saying previously that she seemed normal. No, 1519 01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:20.479 you don't recall saying that, not specifically. No, what about 1520 01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:23.159 her speech pattern? Was there anything different about her speech pattern? 1521 01:21:23.600 --> 01:21:23.800 No? 1522 01:21:26.399 --> 01:21:29.199 What did you guys talk about during that dinner? 1523 01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:34.039 I remember catching up as we usually did, you know, 1524 01:21:34.119 --> 01:21:36.439 giving each other updates on, you know, what our kids 1525 01:21:36.439 --> 01:21:38.640 had been up to, what we our families had been 1526 01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:42.119 up to. And I also made it a point to 1527 01:21:42.359 --> 01:21:45.560 check in with her about how her sleep was and 1528 01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:47.479 how she had been feeling lately. 1529 01:21:48.199 --> 01:21:51.199 And did she give you responses to those questions? 1530 01:21:51.319 --> 01:21:51.680 She did? 1531 01:21:52.079 --> 01:21:56.680 Did they make sense? The responses made sense? Did she 1532 01:21:56.920 --> 01:22:00.399 what was What was the tone of this conversation? I'm 1533 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:03.159 not sure how to answer that question. Well, when you're 1534 01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:06.079 asking her about how things are going with her sleep 1535 01:22:06.119 --> 01:22:10.239 and other things and she's responding, is she does she 1536 01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:13.159 seem negative and depressed about things? Does she seem hopeful 1537 01:22:13.159 --> 01:22:13.680 about things? 1538 01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:13.840 Like? 1539 01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:16.239 What's the tone? I mean it was? 1540 01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:20.600 It was a serious conversation. I was concerned and wanted 1541 01:22:20.640 --> 01:22:24.199 to check in. It sounded like she had been able 1542 01:22:24.199 --> 01:22:28.079 to connect with some providers, And I would say at 1543 01:22:28.079 --> 01:22:33.000 that point, I remember her expressing feeling hopeful about the 1544 01:22:33.039 --> 01:22:35.439 possibility that things could could start to get better. 1545 01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:41.840 And during this conversation at dinner, did she ever mention 1546 01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:45.960 that she had suicidal thoughts? Did she ever mention that 1547 01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:47.199 she had homicidal thoughts? 1548 01:22:47.479 --> 01:22:47.600 Now? 1549 01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:51.720 Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices? Now? 1550 01:22:52.399 --> 01:22:54.920 Did she ever tell you that she was having intrusive 1551 01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:55.760 thoughts of her own? 1552 01:22:56.199 --> 01:22:56.279 No? 1553 01:22:57.840 --> 01:23:00.560 At any point in time while you're engaged with her, 1554 01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.560 did it look like she was responding to something internally, 1555 01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:06.760 like a voice or seeing something that wasn't there. 1556 01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:07.239 No? 1557 01:23:08.319 --> 01:23:13.079 Other than having an issue with sleep, did she mention 1558 01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:14.239 any other issues that. 1559 01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:14.800 She was having? 1560 01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:20.800 She mentioned feeling anxious. And after this dinner, did you 1561 01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:23.760 next see her at Core's birthday party in January? 1562 01:23:24.199 --> 01:23:24.520 Yes? 1563 01:23:25.479 --> 01:23:29.319 And at that birthday party, did you see her interacting 1564 01:23:29.880 --> 01:23:34.319 with other people, and you know, parents and children, as 1565 01:23:34.359 --> 01:23:36.680 a mom would usually do at a birthday party. Yes? 1566 01:23:37.399 --> 01:23:38.920 Did you interact with her yourself? 1567 01:23:39.279 --> 01:23:39.840 I did? 1568 01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:43.359 Did you notice anything different about her demeanor or her 1569 01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:44.680 behavior at that party? 1570 01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:45.479 No? 1571 01:23:47.720 --> 01:23:50.720 Did you have a conversation with her briefly about sleep? 1572 01:23:51.079 --> 01:23:54.560 I did? And was it you basically asking how the 1573 01:23:54.560 --> 01:23:55.640 sleep issue was going? 1574 01:23:56.079 --> 01:23:56.359 Yes? 1575 01:23:56.479 --> 01:23:57.600 And what was her response? 1576 01:23:59.079 --> 01:24:01.560 She responded that things haven't gotten any better and that 1577 01:24:01.600 --> 01:24:03.319 she feels like a zombie. 1578 01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:06.560 Was there anything about her appearance or the way she 1579 01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:09.239 was interacting or behaving that when you saw her you 1580 01:24:09.319 --> 01:24:13.880 thought she looks like a zombie. She seemed tired. But 1581 01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:17.239 there's a difference between being tired and looking like a zombie. Right, 1582 01:24:17.840 --> 01:24:21.560 she didn't look like a zombie. No, And she was 1583 01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:24.680 able to engage with you and the other parents there, 1584 01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:27.960 engaged with her children and the other children. Correct, she was. 1585 01:24:30.439 --> 01:24:35.960 And she recalls stating previously that at the party she 1586 01:24:36.039 --> 01:24:40.560 seemed fine, and no, not specifically page eleven. 1587 01:24:43.479 --> 01:24:44.479 How do you look at Hea then? 1588 01:24:46.319 --> 01:24:51.119 And bottom line twenty four and then she's the top 1589 01:24:51.199 --> 01:24:57.880 of age twelve. That fresh your memory as to a 1590 01:24:57.920 --> 01:25:01.119 conversation you had with the police back in twenty twenty 1591 01:25:01.119 --> 01:25:06.079 three where you said that she seemed fine at the party. Sure, yeah, 1592 01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:07.439 I have another questions? 1593 01:25:07.479 --> 01:25:07.800 Thank you? 1594 01:25:08.680 --> 01:25:15.119 Great so money. Fair to say that you were obviously 1595 01:25:15.159 --> 01:25:20.279 pretty good friends with Lindsey, Yes, And fair to say 1596 01:25:20.279 --> 01:25:24.680 that in that regard you had occasion to observe objectively 1597 01:25:25.319 --> 01:25:28.159 things like she looked tired, she was complaining that she 1598 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:32.680 was tired, Yes, said that she was anxious. Yes, I 1599 01:25:32.840 --> 01:25:35.039 told you that at one point towards the end of 1600 01:25:35.399 --> 01:25:39.680 time frame into January that she felt like a zombie. 1601 01:25:40.520 --> 01:25:43.920 Correct? Yes, did you. 1602 01:25:44.159 --> 01:25:46.920 Ask her any questions like the district attorney was asking, 1603 01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:48.640 Did you ask her, well, what are your symptoms? 1604 01:25:48.640 --> 01:25:50.399 And what do you feel like? And what do you 1605 01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:50.600 you know? 1606 01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:53.600 Is there anything that you can tell me about how 1607 01:25:53.640 --> 01:25:54.119 you feel? 1608 01:25:54.119 --> 01:25:55.720 Did you probe in that regard? 1609 01:25:56.640 --> 01:25:59.880 I don't remember probing about specific symptoms now. 1610 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:02.680 So in other words, your friends and you and Aaron 1611 01:26:02.720 --> 01:26:05.159 and Lindsey were out to dinner or lunch and. 1612 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:07.079 You're trying to have a good time, right, Yes? 1613 01:26:08.439 --> 01:26:11.520 How was she as a mother to your observations as 1614 01:26:11.560 --> 01:26:13.680 far as taking care of her kids, being happy with 1615 01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:14.079 the kids. 1616 01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:16.359 Did she not like her kids? What were your observations? 1617 01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:21.640 She loved her kids. She was warm, kind, consistent, loving. 1618 01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:27.840 And you actually were summons to be here today by 1619 01:26:27.880 --> 01:26:32.880 the District Attorney's office. Correct, I was, And you actually 1620 01:26:33.720 --> 01:26:36.880 were interviewed by the state police. That's what she was 1621 01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.720 questioning you about page eleven and page twelve. 1622 01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:42.119 It was a recorded interview and things of that nature. 1623 01:26:42.239 --> 01:26:45.359 Right, Yes, would you agree with me that although she 1624 01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:47.600 may not have been telling you that she was seeing 1625 01:26:47.680 --> 01:26:51.880 something that wasn't there or hearing voices or drooling or 1626 01:26:51.880 --> 01:26:55.319 acting in some unusual fashion while you guys were out 1627 01:26:55.359 --> 01:26:59.000 having lunch. She did express to you that she was 1628 01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:00.479 having some difficulty. 1629 01:27:00.239 --> 01:27:00.720 Is correct? 1630 01:27:01.439 --> 01:27:03.600 She expressed that she was having difficulty. Yes. 1631 01:27:03.920 --> 01:27:06.239 And would you say, knowing lindsay as you did, that 1632 01:27:06.720 --> 01:27:08.920 she was a type that was not really a complainer. 1633 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:10.920 She would not try to be a downer when you're 1634 01:27:10.960 --> 01:27:12.720 out to lunch and having a good time with your 1635 01:27:12.720 --> 01:27:13.960 friends and complain. 1636 01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:15.439 About her symptoms. 1637 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:19.560 Now, but she did tell you that she was somewhat 1638 01:27:19.560 --> 01:27:22.239 hopeful because she was seeing healthcare providers. 1639 01:27:22.720 --> 01:27:23.079 Yes. 1640 01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:29.239 And in one of the things that they had asked 1641 01:27:29.279 --> 01:27:31.520 you about, fair to say that when you talk to 1642 01:27:31.560 --> 01:27:36.239 the police, you told them that you had spent a 1643 01:27:36.279 --> 01:27:39.920 lot of time chatting about over this period of time, 1644 01:27:40.640 --> 01:27:43.199 that she had been having a lot of trouble, a 1645 01:27:43.239 --> 01:27:46.760 lot of trouble sleeping in that she referenced the postpartum 1646 01:27:47.039 --> 01:27:52.279 period right. Yes, And when you were talking to the 1647 01:27:52.279 --> 01:27:55.840 police the troopers did they try to divert you? Did 1648 01:27:55.840 --> 01:27:58.239 you feel that they were trying to get what your 1649 01:27:58.319 --> 01:28:01.800 observations were or want you to focus on their questions 1650 01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:06.199 when they were questioning you could. 1651 01:28:06.239 --> 01:28:08.720 You know, it's a bad question. It's a bad question. 1652 01:28:08.760 --> 01:28:09.279 I'm sorry. 1653 01:28:10.680 --> 01:28:14.039 But nevertheless, you actually told them that you had been 1654 01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:15.479 in touch with her. You've been to the. 1655 01:28:15.439 --> 01:28:19.760 House, right, I had been in touch with her yet, Yeah. 1656 01:28:19.600 --> 01:28:20.880 And you knew Patrick. Yes. 1657 01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:26.279 Other than socializing with your friends and with erin going 1658 01:28:26.279 --> 01:28:29.920 out to lunches, you guys would also text correct yes, 1659 01:28:30.279 --> 01:28:32.439 and that's a way of keeping in touch with each other. 1660 01:28:33.680 --> 01:28:37.239 And she would respond to your inquiries about fun things 1661 01:28:37.239 --> 01:28:38.039 and about kids. 1662 01:28:38.119 --> 01:28:38.319 Right. 1663 01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:41.920 But also on occasion you were concerned about her and 1664 01:28:41.960 --> 01:28:46.159 you'd ask her how she's doing right, Yes, And when 1665 01:28:46.319 --> 01:28:48.319 you would ask her those things, she would tell you, 1666 01:28:49.079 --> 01:28:54.600 for example, that she didn't know what medications were doing 1667 01:28:54.640 --> 01:28:56.800 to her. But she in fact mentioned to you that 1668 01:28:57.279 --> 01:28:59.720 the medications did not appear as though they were helping, 1669 01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:03.399 and she still wasn't able to get any sleep. And further, 1670 01:29:03.439 --> 01:29:05.520 in the statements that you gave to the police when 1671 01:29:05.560 --> 01:29:10.159 they were asking you questions about your observations, she did 1672 01:29:10.199 --> 01:29:13.399 indicate on a couple of occasions that she had obtained 1673 01:29:13.399 --> 01:29:18.960 a therapist and a prescriber, and she would reference her 1674 01:29:19.000 --> 01:29:23.000 relationship with Pat and tell you that Pat's great things 1675 01:29:23.079 --> 01:29:27.520 like that right, you said, yes, I'm sorry the door closed. 1676 01:29:28.239 --> 01:29:32.000 So in those occasions, did she ever complain about Pat? 1677 01:29:32.039 --> 01:29:33.960 Would they seem to be getting along pretty good? 1678 01:29:34.439 --> 01:29:35.800 They seemed to be getting along great. 1679 01:29:36.079 --> 01:29:38.159 Was he supportive to your observations of her? 1680 01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:38.760 Yes? 1681 01:29:42.520 --> 01:29:45.279 Then when you went out to the other dinner, did 1682 01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.279 you indicate to the police that in that conversation that 1683 01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:50.760 her mother knows everything? As she told you, my mom 1684 01:29:50.840 --> 01:29:54.960 knows everything and she's working it out as far as 1685 01:29:55.039 --> 01:29:57.920 the therapist and the drugs. Correct, Yes, And you still 1686 01:29:57.920 --> 01:30:01.800 felt that it was readily apparent that she was struggling right, yes, 1687 01:30:01.880 --> 01:30:05.640 still having difficulty sleeping and being anxious right, yes? 1688 01:30:05.760 --> 01:30:08.720 And as a friend, you were concerned, right, I was concerned. 1689 01:30:08.840 --> 01:30:09.119 Yes. 1690 01:30:11.920 --> 01:30:14.159 Now, one of the questions Da had asked you was 1691 01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:18.479 that she was supposed to go back to work, and 1692 01:30:18.520 --> 01:30:21.560 that she indicated that she had canceled that day to 1693 01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:24.359 go back to work because she still wasn't sleeping well. 1694 01:30:24.439 --> 01:30:25.560 Is that right she had? 1695 01:30:25.680 --> 01:30:28.359 Yes, And those were her words, that she canceled going 1696 01:30:28.399 --> 01:30:29.840 back to work because she. 1697 01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:31.039 Still wasn't sleeping well. 1698 01:30:31.239 --> 01:30:31.600 Yes. 1699 01:30:32.920 --> 01:30:34.920 Did she ever talk to you about work? Did she 1700 01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:37.600 seem to like her job as a labor and delivery nurse. 1701 01:30:38.119 --> 01:30:39.479 She loved it as far as I knew. 1702 01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:43.000 And then you were at Korra's birthday Patty in January. 1703 01:30:43.039 --> 01:30:43.680 Is that correct? 1704 01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:44.239 Yes? 1705 01:30:45.079 --> 01:30:46.720 And that was the one that was at the trampoline 1706 01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:49.600 pact right, Yes, and it was that time, and that 1707 01:30:49.600 --> 01:30:53.239 would have been in January of twenty three. I believe 1708 01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:56.399 that it was in that time that you were concerned 1709 01:30:56.439 --> 01:30:58.479 and you said, hey, are you getting any sleep? 1710 01:30:58.560 --> 01:31:01.199 And she was like, no, I feel like a zombie? 1711 01:31:01.239 --> 01:31:04.319 Is what her words were. Correct? Yes, is that the 1712 01:31:04.399 --> 01:31:06.239 last time you saw her? 1713 01:31:07.279 --> 01:31:07.560 Yes? 1714 01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:08.960 Thank you? 1715 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:14.800 Hey, redirect, all right, thank you. Let me step down here, Council. 1716 01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:17.520 Why don't we take a brief recess at this time, 1717 01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:23.279 so we're gonna take the morning recess at this point, all. 1718 01:31:22.840 --> 01:31:29.720 Rights, Council. 1719 01:31:29.800 --> 01:31:33.720 Any thing we need to talk about before the break, thank. 1720 01:31:33.600 --> 01:31:35.119 You, So we'll be in recessing this time. 1721 01:31:35.199 --> 01:31:39.920 Thank you, Thank you. 1722 01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:40.399 You're right up. 1723 01:31:40.399 --> 01:31:42.000 For the purpose of the record, we returned back to 1724 01:31:42.039 --> 01:31:46.000 the matter pressus, lindsay, is a present including the jury, 1725 01:31:46.079 --> 01:31:48.399 I mean, including the defendant excluding the jury? 1726 01:31:48.439 --> 01:31:50.880 All right, counsel ready for the jury? Yes, all right, 1727 01:31:53.479 --> 01:31:55.159 I see it said by just very briefly. 1728 01:31:56.960 --> 01:32:02.680 All right, of course, now it's says, please be see it. 1729 01:32:03.119 --> 01:32:04.600 You run up for the purpose of the record. We 1730 01:32:04.640 --> 01:32:06.640 returned back to the trial at Commonwealth for us as 1731 01:32:06.680 --> 01:32:10.319 Lindsay Cuncy. All parties are present, including the defendant and 1732 01:32:10.399 --> 01:32:11.800 including the eighteen jurors. 1733 01:32:12.159 --> 01:32:15.960 All right, thank you came, well call you next witness, 1734 01:32:15.960 --> 01:32:16.520 please thank you. 1735 01:32:16.600 --> 01:32:18.560 Kama calls Amy Bevins. 1736 01:32:19.159 --> 01:32:21.279 It's not right here is writing good clerically? 1737 01:32:24.119 --> 01:32:26.560 Please you right? 1738 01:32:26.600 --> 01:32:27.239 Kay, afternoon. 1739 01:32:29.199 --> 01:32:31.399 I'd ask you to speaking of that microphone, keep your 1740 01:32:31.439 --> 01:32:32.319 voice up if you could. 1741 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:35.199 Okay, oh God, spray. 1742 01:32:35.159 --> 01:32:38.439 Thank you, Good afternoon, Good afternoon. Can you please stay 1743 01:32:38.439 --> 01:32:40.359 and spell your name for the record. 1744 01:32:40.159 --> 01:32:44.199 Amy Bevans A M, Y V, E V I N S. 1745 01:32:44.560 --> 01:32:48.039 And your date of birth eight ninety. Do you live 1746 01:32:48.079 --> 01:32:48.800 in Connecticut? 1747 01:32:49.039 --> 01:32:49.399 Yes? 1748 01:32:50.039 --> 01:32:50.920 What do you do for work? 1749 01:32:51.479 --> 01:32:55.000 I'm a licensed behavior analyst, but I specialize primarily in 1750 01:32:55.199 --> 01:32:58.039 early intervention for young children with autism. 1751 01:32:58.239 --> 01:32:59.760 You could just keep your voice up a little bit, 1752 01:32:59.800 --> 01:33:02.800 maybe come a little forward to the mic. How long 1753 01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:03.600 have you been doing that? 1754 01:33:05.119 --> 01:33:05.800 Six years? 1755 01:33:06.000 --> 01:33:08.720 I was a special education teacher before that for a 1756 01:33:08.760 --> 01:33:09.640 long time as well. 1757 01:33:10.880 --> 01:33:13.680 Do you know Lindsay Clancy, Yes, how do you know her? 1758 01:33:14.479 --> 01:33:18.079 We have been friends for almost twenty nine years. 1759 01:33:19.079 --> 01:33:21.119 So you met her when you were children. 1760 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:21.960 Yes? 1761 01:33:22.640 --> 01:33:24.479 Did you go to school together up. 1762 01:33:24.399 --> 01:33:28.880 Elementary school and after that all the way up through 1763 01:33:28.880 --> 01:33:30.279 middle school and high school as well? 1764 01:33:30.439 --> 01:33:30.800 Okay? 1765 01:33:31.439 --> 01:33:38.920 And did you keep in touch with Lindsay when you 1766 01:33:38.960 --> 01:33:41.920 went off to college? Yes, I'm assuming you didn't go 1767 01:33:41.960 --> 01:33:44.680 to the same college right now? Do you know where Lindsay. 1768 01:33:44.479 --> 01:33:46.239 Went Quinnipiac University? 1769 01:33:47.079 --> 01:33:49.119 And how did you keep in touch. 1770 01:33:50.039 --> 01:33:53.600 Through tax phone calls? We visited each other at each 1771 01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:55.199 other's campuses. 1772 01:33:55.760 --> 01:33:59.720 And then when Lindsay went to nursing school, did you 1773 01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:01.439 still stay in touch at that point in time? 1774 01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:02.239 Yes? 1775 01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:04.920 And how did you do that the same way like 1776 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:05.960 text visits? 1777 01:34:06.239 --> 01:34:06.600 Yes? 1778 01:34:07.560 --> 01:34:10.039 I also lived in Boston at the same time that 1779 01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:12.479 she was in nursing school up in Boston. 1780 01:34:13.159 --> 01:34:16.560 So was your contact more frequent while she was in 1781 01:34:16.640 --> 01:34:20.920 nursing school versus when she was in college. 1782 01:34:21.279 --> 01:34:24.680 I can't remember the exact amount of contact, but I 1783 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:26.760 would say they were always in contact together. 1784 01:34:26.840 --> 01:34:27.720 Yes, Okay. 1785 01:34:28.399 --> 01:34:32.840 While Ms Clancy was in nursing school, did she ever 1786 01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:36.279 tell you that she was taking some mental health medication 1787 01:34:37.520 --> 01:34:41.119 I can't recall. Did she ever tell you that she 1788 01:34:41.159 --> 01:34:43.920 was struggling with anxiety or anything like that while in 1789 01:34:44.039 --> 01:34:45.159 nursing school. 1790 01:34:45.399 --> 01:34:48.239 Nothing that I can recall. 1791 01:34:48.319 --> 01:34:52.279 And after she was finished with nursing school, did the 1792 01:34:52.279 --> 01:34:54.119 two of you still remain in touch? 1793 01:34:54.520 --> 01:34:54.880 Yes? 1794 01:34:55.279 --> 01:34:57.680 And how often would you see her? 1795 01:34:58.359 --> 01:35:02.199 I moved back home to Connecticut, so whenever we were 1796 01:35:02.439 --> 01:35:06.760 she was able to visit home, we would stay in Dutch. 1797 01:35:07.600 --> 01:35:11.119 I traveled to Boston some like, not very frequently, but 1798 01:35:11.319 --> 01:35:12.560 I would visit her there as well. 1799 01:35:13.239 --> 01:35:16.039 And did you have a text chain going between the 1800 01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:16.479 two of you? 1801 01:35:16.840 --> 01:35:17.159 Yes? 1802 01:35:17.319 --> 01:35:19.159 And did you also have a group text with other 1803 01:35:19.199 --> 01:35:22.039 friends from Connecticut that you both grew up with that 1804 01:35:22.079 --> 01:35:23.079 you would participate in. 1805 01:35:23.399 --> 01:35:23.680 Yes? 1806 01:35:24.319 --> 01:35:30.279 And how often would you text with Lindsay? 1807 01:35:30.680 --> 01:35:31.600 Pretty frequently. 1808 01:35:33.239 --> 01:35:35.920 It depended on I think the point in life that 1809 01:35:35.960 --> 01:35:39.359 we were at, but I would say there was regular communication. 1810 01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:46.000 And growing up with Lindsay and knowing her into adulthood, 1811 01:35:46.199 --> 01:35:48.159 how would you have just how would you describe her 1812 01:35:48.319 --> 01:35:49.239 general demeanor? 1813 01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:51.439 She was. 1814 01:35:53.119 --> 01:35:57.920 Pretty a calm person, you know, she was able, She 1815 01:35:58.079 --> 01:36:03.840 was nice and had a veryly calm approach to herself. 1816 01:36:05.479 --> 01:36:08.359 And during that time that you knew her and would 1817 01:36:08.399 --> 01:36:12.680 interact with her, did you ever notice any changes in 1818 01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:18.119 her pattern of speech or rate of speech. No, she 1819 01:36:18.319 --> 01:36:21.319 pretty consistent in her behavior and speech patterns throughout the 1820 01:36:21.439 --> 01:36:22.279 years that you knew her. 1821 01:36:23.800 --> 01:36:24.079 Yes. 1822 01:36:26.560 --> 01:36:33.079 After Mss Clancy had Cora, were you still in contact 1823 01:36:33.119 --> 01:36:33.920 with her at that time? 1824 01:36:34.199 --> 01:36:34.560 Yes? 1825 01:36:35.199 --> 01:36:36.600 And just to kind of get it out of the way. 1826 01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:38.520 Were you in contact with her all the way up 1827 01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:41.239 through January of twenty twenty three? 1828 01:36:41.600 --> 01:36:41.880 Yes? 1829 01:36:42.840 --> 01:36:46.359 And so after she had Cora, did you notice any 1830 01:36:46.439 --> 01:36:47.520 changes in her demeanor? 1831 01:36:48.039 --> 01:36:48.119 No? 1832 01:36:48.800 --> 01:36:52.199 Did you notice any changes in her behavior no? Did 1833 01:36:52.239 --> 01:36:54.279 you notice any changes in her speech patterns? 1834 01:36:54.479 --> 01:36:54.560 No? 1835 01:36:57.199 --> 01:37:01.119 After she had Dawson, did she talk to you about 1836 01:37:01.840 --> 01:37:03.279 that delivery and how that went? 1837 01:37:04.119 --> 01:37:04.399 Yes? 1838 01:37:04.680 --> 01:37:07.560 And what did she tell you about that that was 1839 01:37:07.600 --> 01:37:11.039 more of a difficult delivery than the one she had 1840 01:37:11.039 --> 01:37:14.520 with Cora, that she would maybe need to take some 1841 01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:19.119 time to recover prior to thinking about having a third child. 1842 01:37:20.520 --> 01:37:23.880 And during that time after she had Dawson, did you 1843 01:37:23.920 --> 01:37:28.920 notice any changes in her behavior now or her demeanor now, 1844 01:37:29.279 --> 01:37:34.600 her speech pattern now? Was there anything about your interactions 1845 01:37:34.640 --> 01:37:37.600 with Lindsay during that time that caused you to have 1846 01:37:37.720 --> 01:37:40.039 concern about her harming herself or someone else? 1847 01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:40.600 Now? 1848 01:37:42.720 --> 01:37:45.880 And then after she gave birth to Callen, did you 1849 01:37:45.920 --> 01:37:48.520 notice a change in her demeanor at that time, no, 1850 01:37:49.479 --> 01:37:54.359 or her behavior or rate of speech. Now, did you 1851 01:37:54.439 --> 01:37:57.920 see her in Connecticut in November of twenty twenty two? 1852 01:37:58.359 --> 01:37:58.640 Yes? 1853 01:37:58.920 --> 01:38:01.039 And why did you see her than what was happening? 1854 01:38:03.359 --> 01:38:05.079 She had traveled down to Connecticut. 1855 01:38:05.560 --> 01:38:10.640 We had gotten together as a group to go out 1856 01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:11.399 to breakfast. 1857 01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:14.880 And had she come to Connecticut alone or with her 1858 01:38:14.880 --> 01:38:16.760 family alone? 1859 01:38:17.199 --> 01:38:19.279 I believe at that time? 1860 01:38:20.199 --> 01:38:23.680 And you said you went out to breakfast, Yes, was 1861 01:38:23.720 --> 01:38:26.479 this with that whole group of friends and spouses and 1862 01:38:26.560 --> 01:38:28.840 everyone that kept in contact from Connecticut? 1863 01:38:29.239 --> 01:38:31.039 Yes, there was a group of us there that had 1864 01:38:31.079 --> 01:38:32.960 all remained friends. 1865 01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:37.000 Did you notice anything about her demeanor or behavior at 1866 01:38:37.039 --> 01:38:39.600 that breakfast in November of twenty twenty two that caused 1867 01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:42.439 you concern or was different than her typical behavior? 1868 01:38:44.479 --> 01:38:44.600 Now? 1869 01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:54.880 Did you have some text conversations about in January of 1870 01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:59.439 twenty twenty three about some issues that Lindsay was having. Yes, 1871 01:38:59.840 --> 01:39:03.079 And if you recall when those messages started. 1872 01:39:04.000 --> 01:39:06.840 I don't recall the exact date of the messages, but 1873 01:39:06.920 --> 01:39:09.000 it was only I believe, one night. 1874 01:39:10.399 --> 01:39:14.520 And in terms of what happened on January twenty fourth, 1875 01:39:14.520 --> 01:39:16.880 twenty twenty three, how close in time was it to 1876 01:39:16.960 --> 01:39:20.960 that can you repeat the question. So, in terms of 1877 01:39:21.039 --> 01:39:24.359 January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, when the children were killed, 1878 01:39:24.720 --> 01:39:27.880 how close in time were your text messages to that incident? 1879 01:39:28.760 --> 01:39:29.880 Only a few days? 1880 01:39:30.760 --> 01:39:31.159 Okay? 1881 01:39:31.479 --> 01:39:34.079 And what was that text conversation? 1882 01:39:35.279 --> 01:39:37.000 She had shared that she. 1883 01:39:38.800 --> 01:39:43.800 Had been taking a medication that caused her to have 1884 01:39:43.840 --> 01:39:48.640 some dark thoughts, but that she was going to or 1885 01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:51.960 had been weaning like tapering off that medication and was 1886 01:39:52.000 --> 01:39:56.600 trialing new ones that would remove those side effects and 1887 01:39:56.640 --> 01:40:01.199 be more helpful in therapeutic to what she didd. 1888 01:40:00.000 --> 01:40:01.840 Did she tell you what those dark thoughts were? 1889 01:40:02.319 --> 01:40:02.399 No? 1890 01:40:05.520 --> 01:40:07.199 What was the tone of the conversation? 1891 01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:09.239 Hopeful? 1892 01:40:09.560 --> 01:40:10.840 I would categorize it. 1893 01:40:10.920 --> 01:40:16.279 I remember it being something where there was conveying of hope, 1894 01:40:16.279 --> 01:40:17.880 and then it was going to be a you know, 1895 01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:19.640 we were moving on a positive direction. 1896 01:40:20.760 --> 01:40:22.960 So basically she would it be fair to say that 1897 01:40:23.199 --> 01:40:25.479 Lindsay was telling you that she'd had some side effects 1898 01:40:25.479 --> 01:40:28.239 in some dark thoughts because of medication, but was weaning 1899 01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:30.600 off of those and moving on to something else that 1900 01:40:30.600 --> 01:40:34.399 would hopefully help her. Yes, did she ever express at 1901 01:40:34.399 --> 01:40:37.359 any point that she wanted to harm herself? 1902 01:40:38.000 --> 01:40:38.159 Now? 1903 01:40:38.680 --> 01:40:41.239 Did she ever express that she wanted to harm the children. No, 1904 01:40:42.000 --> 01:40:44.680 did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices? No, 1905 01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:48.640 other than saying that she had had some bad thoughts, 1906 01:40:49.359 --> 01:40:52.119 did she say anything else that was concerning in that conversation. 1907 01:40:52.640 --> 01:40:58.560 Now want to direct your attention to March of twenty 1908 01:40:58.600 --> 01:41:01.960 twenty three. Did you visit Mss Clancy while she was 1909 01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:04.119 at the Spalding Rehabilitation Facility? 1910 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:04.760 Yes? 1911 01:41:05.720 --> 01:41:07.039 And how was that arranged? 1912 01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:11.920 At the request of one of her family members who 1913 01:41:11.960 --> 01:41:13.960 reached out to see if I would. 1914 01:41:13.720 --> 01:41:14.520 Like to come visit. 1915 01:41:15.520 --> 01:41:20.239 And you traveled to Massachusetts and visited Lindsay at the 1916 01:41:20.239 --> 01:41:21.760 Spalding rehab Center Is that right? 1917 01:41:22.079 --> 01:41:22.319 Yes? 1918 01:41:22.880 --> 01:41:25.159 And what did you do there with Lindsay that day? 1919 01:41:26.720 --> 01:41:31.720 We made small talk, We played UNO. 1920 01:41:32.439 --> 01:41:32.960 It was. 1921 01:41:34.479 --> 01:41:36.760 A pretty basic visit. 1922 01:41:38.319 --> 01:41:40.680 When you say you you made small talk, what did 1923 01:41:40.720 --> 01:41:41.760 she talk about? 1924 01:41:44.680 --> 01:41:49.199 I remember her asking about my daughter. I remember her 1925 01:41:49.239 --> 01:41:54.560 asking about any updates to life events for our friends. 1926 01:41:55.640 --> 01:42:00.680 We talked about some hobbies that she was doing while Spalding, 1927 01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:02.760 and then played a game. 1928 01:42:03.239 --> 01:42:05.520 Do you remember what hobbies she was doing at Spalding? 1929 01:42:06.800 --> 01:42:09.039 I can't recall specifically. 1930 01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:09.399 Now. 1931 01:42:09.800 --> 01:42:11.800 At any point in time did she mention the death 1932 01:42:11.840 --> 01:42:15.039 of her children? No, at any point in time, did 1933 01:42:15.079 --> 01:42:18.520 she break down in tears and cry about her children? Now? 1934 01:42:19.399 --> 01:42:21.159 What was her affect during that meeting? 1935 01:42:24.199 --> 01:42:32.000 It I don't remember exactly. Neutral, I would say. 1936 01:42:33.039 --> 01:42:38.159 Did she attempt at any point to harm herself? 1937 01:42:38.520 --> 01:42:38.560 No? 1938 01:42:39.239 --> 01:42:41.319 Did she ask you for help in harming herself? 1939 01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:41.680 No? 1940 01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:46.760 Did she talk about Cora Dawson or Callen at all? 1941 01:42:47.239 --> 01:42:47.279 No? 1942 01:42:51.479 --> 01:42:52.199 And nothing further? 1943 01:42:52.279 --> 01:43:01.039 Thank you, it's right, that's no, you're nervous. Don't be okay, 1944 01:43:02.760 --> 01:43:04.000 you guys, go back how far? 1945 01:43:05.319 --> 01:43:06.560 Almost twenty nine years? 1946 01:43:07.279 --> 01:43:10.239 And over those twenty nine years knowing lindsay, when you 1947 01:43:10.279 --> 01:43:12.640 guys were in grammar school, I guess in high school, 1948 01:43:12.680 --> 01:43:14.640 and then you went off to college and you had 1949 01:43:14.680 --> 01:43:20.560 your families and your marriages. Tell us what your opinion 1950 01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:22.439 was of her as a person. 1951 01:43:24.640 --> 01:43:26.840 I knew her as a good person, a good friend, 1952 01:43:27.199 --> 01:43:28.880 a good mom. 1953 01:43:29.359 --> 01:43:32.079 And you had occasion to see her with her kids 1954 01:43:32.119 --> 01:43:34.560 and how she acted with your kids Korra. 1955 01:43:36.000 --> 01:43:37.279 Up till Callen. 1956 01:43:38.039 --> 01:43:38.239 Yes? 1957 01:43:39.439 --> 01:43:42.760 And did you ever observe anything out of the ordinary? 1958 01:43:42.920 --> 01:43:45.199 Did she appear to be a loving person and taking 1959 01:43:45.239 --> 01:43:46.119 care of her kids? 1960 01:43:46.800 --> 01:43:53.560 I never saw anything out of the ordinary. 1961 01:43:53.840 --> 01:43:57.279 Distic attorney asked you about the visit that you had 1962 01:43:57.479 --> 01:43:59.720 when you were good enough to visit with her Spalding, 1963 01:44:00.960 --> 01:44:05.039 And this was when in March of twenty three, Yes. 1964 01:44:06.479 --> 01:44:09.359 And arrangements had to be made for you to visit 1965 01:44:09.399 --> 01:44:09.720 with her. 1966 01:44:09.800 --> 01:44:12.880 You had to get approval, and whether you know or not, 1967 01:44:12.960 --> 01:44:14.279 I mean I had to kind of help you out 1968 01:44:14.279 --> 01:44:16.039 a little bit trying to get through the red tape 1969 01:44:16.079 --> 01:44:18.000 to get in there this year long with her family 1970 01:44:18.039 --> 01:44:19.319 approval and that type of thing. 1971 01:44:19.399 --> 01:44:21.319 Right, I don't recall any of that. 1972 01:44:21.600 --> 01:44:23.920 But you were able to get in, yes, to visit 1973 01:44:23.960 --> 01:44:24.319 with her. 1974 01:44:25.720 --> 01:44:27.800 And this would have been in the beginning of match, 1975 01:44:27.880 --> 01:44:29.560 if you know, the middle of March the end. 1976 01:44:30.960 --> 01:44:33.560 I don't recall the sacks okay time. 1977 01:44:35.840 --> 01:44:38.880 Was she able to walk around and ambulate or was 1978 01:44:38.920 --> 01:44:40.800 she in a wheelchair or what was her condition? 1979 01:44:40.920 --> 01:44:41.560 Was she in bed? 1980 01:44:41.960 --> 01:44:43.880 She was in a wheelchair, she was sitting up the 1981 01:44:44.039 --> 01:44:44.600 entire visit. 1982 01:44:45.159 --> 01:44:48.000 Did you ask her about why she was in the 1983 01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:53.159 wheelchair and anything like that? No, you knew that she 1984 01:44:53.399 --> 01:44:57.720 had been in the hospital from January twenty fourth, right, yes, 1985 01:44:58.359 --> 01:45:00.800 And you knew that your friend had been charged by 1986 01:45:00.840 --> 01:45:02.319 the police and had killed her. 1987 01:45:02.560 --> 01:45:03.680 Three beautiful children. 1988 01:45:03.720 --> 01:45:03.960 Right. 1989 01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:07.800 Yes, that was a bit of an awkward, uncomfortable topic. 1990 01:45:07.920 --> 01:45:08.319 Wasn't it. 1991 01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:11.800 I think it would be for anybody. 1992 01:45:11.880 --> 01:45:16.000 Yes, absolutely, And the district attorney asked you whether or 1993 01:45:16.039 --> 01:45:18.760 not she cried, and whether or not she told you 1994 01:45:18.840 --> 01:45:21.680 about her children and anything to do with her children 1995 01:45:21.760 --> 01:45:22.479 or that incident. 1996 01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:26.960 You both basically stayed away from that entire subject, right. 1997 01:45:28.119 --> 01:45:32.479 I remember also being told not to bring that up specifically, 1998 01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.760 which at the time I would like I figured that 1999 01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:40.039 that could be due to the recommendation of mental health providers, etc. 2000 01:45:40.359 --> 01:45:42.520 Who were treating her, right and who told you that 2001 01:45:43.119 --> 01:45:43.640 her sister. 2002 01:45:44.520 --> 01:45:47.760 Now, how long did you visit with hers? 2003 01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:50.520 Maybe thirty to forty five minutes. 2004 01:45:51.319 --> 01:45:51.960 That's all they have. 2005 01:45:52.159 --> 01:45:57.359 I went, did you guys have a group get together 2006 01:45:57.439 --> 01:45:59.239 in December of twenty twenty two? 2007 01:45:59.319 --> 01:46:02.239 If you recall, I don't recall. 2008 01:46:03.439 --> 01:46:07.079 Do you recall seeing her after Thanksgiving around that time 2009 01:46:07.119 --> 01:46:08.520 frame in December of twenty two? 2010 01:46:09.439 --> 01:46:10.439 I don't recall doing. 2011 01:46:10.640 --> 01:46:12.960 Now do you recall. 2012 01:46:14.560 --> 01:46:19.000 Having conversations with her around that time frame, which would 2013 01:46:19.000 --> 01:46:22.880 be in December of twenty twenty two, that she was 2014 01:46:22.920 --> 01:46:26.520 talking to you about medications and asking you questions about 2015 01:46:26.880 --> 01:46:27.960 particular medication. 2016 01:46:30.239 --> 01:46:33.279 I don't recall the exact time frame of those conversations. 2017 01:46:33.479 --> 01:46:38.239 Okay, you were summons here today by the DA's office. 2018 01:46:38.319 --> 01:46:38.920 Is that correct? 2019 01:46:39.680 --> 01:46:40.039 Yes? 2020 01:46:40.239 --> 01:46:43.239 You were also on my witness list as well. Right, yes, 2021 01:46:45.279 --> 01:46:48.159 And when I ask you about the conversations, the reason 2022 01:46:48.279 --> 01:46:54.359 is you were questioned by the state police back in 2023 01:46:54.479 --> 01:46:56.359 January of twenty three. 2024 01:46:56.439 --> 01:46:57.079 Do you remember that? 2025 01:46:57.920 --> 01:47:01.359 Yes, And one of. 2026 01:47:01.279 --> 01:47:05.479 The troopers had asked you. 2027 01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:04.720 Whether or not. 2028 01:47:06.439 --> 01:47:10.479 You had any conversations with Lindsey, your friend about medications, 2029 01:47:10.720 --> 01:47:12.880 and you indicated that. 2030 01:47:15.439 --> 01:47:17.840 And I quote page twelve. 2031 01:47:18.199 --> 01:47:21.359 She knows that I'm pretty open about mental health, that 2032 01:47:21.439 --> 01:47:24.560 I'm a big advocate of mental health. And she asked 2033 01:47:24.560 --> 01:47:26.600 me if I knew, like you know, if I had 2034 01:47:26.640 --> 01:47:29.039 tried a medication. Do you remember saying that? 2035 01:47:29.479 --> 01:47:29.800 Yes? 2036 01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:30.319 Okay? 2037 01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:34.000 Does that refresh your memory at all as too? Approximately 2038 01:47:34.079 --> 01:47:35.840 what time when that was? Would that had been in 2039 01:47:35.880 --> 01:47:38.079 December of twenty two after Thanksgiving? 2040 01:47:39.399 --> 01:47:40.159 I don't know. 2041 01:47:40.239 --> 01:47:42.119 I still don't recall the exact time, but I do 2042 01:47:42.279 --> 01:47:44.680 remember that being a conversation. 2043 01:47:44.239 --> 01:47:44.760 That we had. 2044 01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:46.880 Okay. Do you remember where you had the conversation? 2045 01:47:47.239 --> 01:47:49.319 It was over tax meassage? 2046 01:47:49.560 --> 01:47:49.920 Okay. 2047 01:47:51.359 --> 01:47:55.399 Do you recall her asking you what your experience was 2048 01:47:55.439 --> 01:47:57.760 because you had some knowledge of medications? 2049 01:47:57.760 --> 01:48:00.479 Correct, as a patient okay. 2050 01:48:01.119 --> 01:48:03.560 And as a result of that and being close and 2051 01:48:03.600 --> 01:48:07.479 good friends, that she had asked you what your experience 2052 01:48:07.680 --> 01:48:12.439 was and again it's page thirteen, and she would say, 2053 01:48:12.439 --> 01:48:13.520 how was your experience? 2054 01:48:13.520 --> 01:48:16.039 Did you ever take this? What was your experience with this? 2055 01:48:16.279 --> 01:48:16.960 That type of thing? 2056 01:48:16.960 --> 01:48:21.760 Do you remember that that conversation. 2057 01:48:22.479 --> 01:48:24.640 I don't recall this specific conversation. 2058 01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:28.079 Do you recall the medication that she asked you about? 2059 01:48:29.600 --> 01:48:29.960 Yes? 2060 01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:30.840 What was that? 2061 01:48:32.119 --> 01:48:35.159 I remember it being laxapro Do. 2062 01:48:35.159 --> 01:48:39.920 You recall in your text message exchange that she had 2063 01:48:39.960 --> 01:48:43.239 asked you about or told you about some of the 2064 01:48:43.279 --> 01:48:45.640 medications that she was taking, and that there were some 2065 01:48:45.720 --> 01:48:46.760 difficulties with it. 2066 01:48:47.640 --> 01:48:47.960 Yes. 2067 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:51.039 Do you remember that she had asked you whether or 2068 01:48:51.039 --> 01:48:53.560 not you had noted or if you were aware of 2069 01:48:53.640 --> 01:48:56.079 any side effects of medications? 2070 01:48:56.560 --> 01:48:57.279 I don't recall. 2071 01:48:59.079 --> 01:49:03.800 And after those text threads, and with that understanding, being 2072 01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:08.319 as close to Lindsay as you were, she then confided 2073 01:49:08.319 --> 01:49:11.359 in you that she was having dark thoughts, as I 2074 01:49:11.399 --> 01:49:12.479 think was the expression. 2075 01:49:13.760 --> 01:49:17.960 That was a long time after the conversation that we 2076 01:49:18.039 --> 01:49:20.399 had had about the medication. I do remember that being 2077 01:49:20.399 --> 01:49:24.319 the first time I had heard any concern around her 2078 01:49:24.399 --> 01:49:25.920 mental health up until that point. 2079 01:49:26.079 --> 01:49:29.520 Okay, what point was that if you remember, can. 2080 01:49:29.359 --> 01:49:30.880 You restate the question? 2081 01:49:31.119 --> 01:49:31.359 Sure? 2082 01:49:32.479 --> 01:49:33.439 Let me ask it this way. 2083 01:49:34.159 --> 01:49:36.800 When she told you that she was having problems or 2084 01:49:36.840 --> 01:49:40.399 difficulties with the medication, and she was telling you that 2085 01:49:40.479 --> 01:49:41.800 she was having dark thoughts? 2086 01:49:41.840 --> 01:49:43.479 Do you remember when that was. 2087 01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:47.039 Towards the end of January twenty twenty three? 2088 01:49:47.479 --> 01:49:50.520 Okay, do you remember was that in person or was 2089 01:49:50.560 --> 01:49:51.520 that a message? 2090 01:49:51.560 --> 01:49:52.239 Text message? 2091 01:49:52.560 --> 01:49:53.760 Over text message? 2092 01:49:55.279 --> 01:49:59.199 Did she explicated? Did she explain what the dark thoughts were? 2093 01:49:59.640 --> 01:50:00.079 No? 2094 01:50:02.359 --> 01:50:04.640 And the next time you saw her after that was 2095 01:50:04.800 --> 01:50:07.159 at the hospital rehab correct? 2096 01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:09.920 Yes, thank you man, it's all hit. 2097 01:50:12.079 --> 01:50:14.880 All right, Thank you man, may step down, come off. 2098 01:50:14.960 --> 01:50:22.840 Calls Christopher Clancy, this is my water. 2099 01:50:24.479 --> 01:50:29.479 Okay, good afternoon, sir, good afternoon, A right, thank you. 2100 01:50:29.880 --> 01:50:30.560 Good afternoon. 2101 01:50:30.600 --> 01:50:32.520 Can you please state and spell your name for the record. 2102 01:50:33.720 --> 01:50:34.680 Say that again. I'm sorry. 2103 01:50:34.720 --> 01:50:36.920 Could you please state and spell your name for the record. 2104 01:50:37.359 --> 01:50:42.199 Yes, Christopher William Clancy C H R I S T 2105 01:50:42.319 --> 01:50:46.119 O P H E R W C L A N 2106 01:50:46.319 --> 01:50:46.760 C Y. 2107 01:50:47.880 --> 01:50:48.880 And what's your date of birth? 2108 01:50:49.119 --> 01:50:50.479 Seven six sixty one. 2109 01:50:51.119 --> 01:50:54.640 Where do you live Situate, mass And do you work? 2110 01:50:56.399 --> 01:50:56.560 Uh? 2111 01:50:56.640 --> 01:50:57.520 No, I'm retired. 2112 01:50:57.840 --> 01:51:02.800 What did you do before you retired plumbing contractor. Is 2113 01:51:02.880 --> 01:51:04.079 Patrick Clancy your son? 2114 01:51:04.319 --> 01:51:04.640 Yes? 2115 01:51:07.159 --> 01:51:10.800 When did you first meet Lindsay Clancy? 2116 01:51:11.479 --> 01:51:14.520 I don't know what the yea was, but I believe 2117 01:51:14.880 --> 01:51:18.479 I met her for the first time at my at 2118 01:51:18.479 --> 01:51:21.199 the cottage and hall that was my parents' house, and 2119 01:51:22.880 --> 01:51:24.560 I believe that's when I met a. I think you 2120 01:51:24.600 --> 01:51:25.039 brought it on. 2121 01:51:25.079 --> 01:51:29.199 That was that before or after that she and Patrick 2122 01:51:29.199 --> 01:51:33.680 had gotten engaged. That was before and eventually they got 2123 01:51:33.680 --> 01:51:38.039 engaged and got married correct, correct, and had three children? Correct? 2124 01:51:38.239 --> 01:51:38.600 Correct. 2125 01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:41.439 So I want to direct your attention to the time 2126 01:51:41.520 --> 01:51:45.079 frame after Callen was born in May of twenty twenty two. 2127 01:51:46.119 --> 01:51:50.000 Did you have a chance to observe Lindsay interact with Callen? 2128 01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:51.079 Yes? 2129 01:51:51.560 --> 01:51:53.960 And what was Lindsay like with Callen? 2130 01:51:55.159 --> 01:51:56.119 She was very mothering? 2131 01:51:57.800 --> 01:52:00.479 And was she detective? 2132 01:52:01.680 --> 01:52:03.720 I would say yes, like any mother would be. 2133 01:52:04.640 --> 01:52:13.239 Do you recall describing her previously as very protective of him? 2134 01:52:13.359 --> 01:52:15.840 I would say that she was very protective of him. 2135 01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:19.800 Would she in terms of how protective she was of 2136 01:52:19.880 --> 01:52:24.199 Callen versus Dawson and Cora? Was she more less or 2137 01:52:24.239 --> 01:52:24.680 the same? 2138 01:52:25.319 --> 01:52:27.520 I would say she was more of the same When 2139 01:52:27.520 --> 01:52:29.960 the babies were little, you know, when the babies were young, 2140 01:52:30.319 --> 01:52:30.640 so was. 2141 01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:32.720 That something typical when she would have one of the 2142 01:52:32.800 --> 01:52:35.000 children should be very protective when they were first born. 2143 01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:37.880 Yes, I think that's like any of the mother though. 2144 01:52:38.680 --> 01:52:43.680 And how often would you see the family? 2145 01:52:45.720 --> 01:52:48.920 We saw them regularly. They lived not too far from us. 2146 01:52:48.960 --> 01:52:51.319 They lived in Weymouth first and we saw them. 2147 01:52:51.159 --> 01:52:55.359 Regularly, and then eventually they moved to Duxbury. Yes, And 2148 01:52:56.000 --> 01:53:00.520 directing your attention to the time frame between November sixth teenth, 2149 01:53:00.560 --> 01:53:03.800 twenty twenty two and Thanksgiving of that year, did you 2150 01:53:03.840 --> 01:53:04.960 see them at your house? 2151 01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:09.159 I think we were. I think they did come up 2152 01:53:09.159 --> 01:53:12.159 to our house one time once, might have been a 2153 01:53:12.159 --> 01:53:13.159 Saturday or Sunday. 2154 01:53:14.119 --> 01:53:16.279 And why did they come over that day? 2155 01:53:16.560 --> 01:53:18.039 I think they just came over to say hi? 2156 01:53:19.000 --> 01:53:23.640 And what was the what was Lindsay's demeanor that day? 2157 01:53:24.319 --> 01:53:24.720 Very good? 2158 01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:30.199 And was there any difference in her behavior or speech 2159 01:53:30.239 --> 01:53:32.640 pattern than what you've seen with her previously? 2160 01:53:33.720 --> 01:53:34.319 Not that day? 2161 01:53:35.760 --> 01:53:36.800 And how was that visit? 2162 01:53:37.520 --> 01:53:37.920 Very good? 2163 01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:43.359 Did you then see them at or around Thanksgiving? 2164 01:53:44.119 --> 01:53:44.359 Yes? 2165 01:53:44.439 --> 01:53:44.800 We did? 2166 01:53:45.520 --> 01:53:47.039 And where was that? 2167 01:53:47.039 --> 01:53:50.199 That was at my daughter Laura's house Hamilton. 2168 01:53:50.720 --> 01:53:54.000 I'm sorry I didn't be in the Hamilton And did 2169 01:53:54.000 --> 01:53:57.279 you interact with Lindsay that day. Yes, what was her 2170 01:53:57.319 --> 01:53:58.199 demeanor that day? 2171 01:54:00.039 --> 01:54:04.800 Seemed a little how do you say it? Let me 2172 01:54:04.800 --> 01:54:08.680 think for a minute. She seemed quiet. She seemed quiet. 2173 01:54:10.239 --> 01:54:14.279 And did she seem to interact with everyone there as 2174 01:54:14.319 --> 01:54:15.159 she normally would? 2175 01:54:15.840 --> 01:54:18.640 Yeah, she was very close with my daughters and her 2176 01:54:18.720 --> 01:54:19.359 sister in law. 2177 01:54:20.239 --> 01:54:22.880 Do you recall them wearing coordinating shirts that day? 2178 01:54:23.720 --> 01:54:27.399 I think so. 2179 01:54:28.079 --> 01:54:32.319 And during dinner that day, did you make observations of 2180 01:54:32.479 --> 01:54:35.560 Lindsey getting the kids settled down for dinner? 2181 01:54:36.039 --> 01:54:36.399 I did? 2182 01:54:36.840 --> 01:54:40.279 And did you see her interact with Dawson? 2183 01:54:42.199 --> 01:54:42.720 Yes? I did? 2184 01:54:42.840 --> 01:54:44.800 And can you describe that interaction please? 2185 01:54:48.680 --> 01:54:50.880 She was getting a little frustrated. Dawson was being a 2186 01:54:50.920 --> 01:54:53.640 little silly and she was trying to get them to 2187 01:54:53.640 --> 01:54:56.520 sit down, and she was just a little bit getting 2188 01:54:56.520 --> 01:54:59.359 frustrated with them, and I noticed it, so I got 2189 01:54:59.439 --> 01:55:00.000 up to help her. 2190 01:55:00.960 --> 01:55:04.319 And when you saw her getting frustrated with him, did 2191 01:55:04.319 --> 01:55:06.840 you see her do something to get him seated? 2192 01:55:07.279 --> 01:55:09.600 She took him by the arm to get him seated. 2193 01:55:10.000 --> 01:55:12.640 It wasn't anything crazy. 2194 01:55:12.840 --> 01:55:15.119 It's not like she hit him or anything like that. No, 2195 01:55:15.399 --> 01:55:17.600 she just took his arm and guided him to the seat. 2196 01:55:17.680 --> 01:55:18.239 Is correct? 2197 01:55:18.359 --> 01:55:18.720 Correct? 2198 01:55:19.199 --> 01:55:21.439 But you could see that she was frustrated. I could, 2199 01:55:21.880 --> 01:55:23.279 and so you stepped in to help her? 2200 01:55:23.359 --> 01:55:24.119 Right? Correct? 2201 01:55:24.239 --> 01:55:25.279 And what did you do to help? 2202 01:55:25.880 --> 01:55:28.720 I got a replate. I believe there were a lot 2203 01:55:28.760 --> 01:55:30.800 of people, so it was just a little chaotic. 2204 01:55:33.399 --> 01:55:39.239 Now directing your attention to the weekend before Christmas twenty 2205 01:55:39.279 --> 01:55:43.279 twenty two. Did you stop by their home that weekend? 2206 01:55:44.640 --> 01:55:45.279 I believe we did. 2207 01:55:45.399 --> 01:55:45.840 Yeah? 2208 01:55:46.039 --> 01:55:47.439 And who was there? 2209 01:55:48.399 --> 01:55:49.000 Her parents? 2210 01:55:50.039 --> 01:55:52.680 So it would be Lindsay's parents, Lindsay Patrick, and the kids. 2211 01:55:52.880 --> 01:55:53.199 Yes. 2212 01:55:53.960 --> 01:55:55.680 And were you by yourself or. 2213 01:55:55.640 --> 01:55:57.760 With your wife? I was with my wife. 2214 01:55:59.199 --> 01:56:04.199 And was there a specific point for everyone stopping by 2215 01:56:04.239 --> 01:56:05.920 and gathering that day? 2216 01:56:07.680 --> 01:56:10.000 Uh? I don't I don't. 2217 01:56:09.800 --> 01:56:14.319 Recall that, Okay, were you and your wife checking in 2218 01:56:14.479 --> 01:56:16.319 or helping out that day? 2219 01:56:16.520 --> 01:56:18.600 We might have just been going down to check on things. 2220 01:56:19.920 --> 01:56:22.039 Did you know that there were some struggles going on 2221 01:56:22.119 --> 01:56:22.640 at that point? 2222 01:56:23.000 --> 01:56:23.560 I did? 2223 01:56:24.359 --> 01:56:27.439 And did you know that Lindsay was specifically Lindsay was 2224 01:56:27.479 --> 01:56:28.800 having some struggles at that point? 2225 01:56:29.159 --> 01:56:29.439 Yes? 2226 01:56:32.079 --> 01:56:35.640 Did you stop by again a few nights before Christmas? 2227 01:56:38.199 --> 01:56:38.359 Uh? 2228 01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:44.600 I thought that's the night you were talking about. Yes, 2229 01:56:44.680 --> 01:56:45.319 I guess we did. 2230 01:56:46.479 --> 01:56:50.560 And when you stopped by the night before Christmas, do 2231 01:56:50.560 --> 01:56:51.960 you recall who was there that day? 2232 01:56:54.720 --> 01:56:56.800 I think the same people, but I'm not positive. 2233 01:56:57.119 --> 01:56:59.439 So Lindsay's parents, Lindsay Patrick, and the kids. 2234 01:56:59.560 --> 01:57:00.279 Yes? 2235 01:57:00.720 --> 01:57:05.640 And what was Lindsay's demeanor that day? 2236 01:57:05.720 --> 01:57:08.560 It was okay, it wasn't terrible. 2237 01:57:09.880 --> 01:57:12.920 Do you recall testifying previously and saying that she seemed 2238 01:57:12.960 --> 01:57:14.199 like she was in good spirits? 2239 01:57:14.760 --> 01:57:15.079 Yes? 2240 01:57:15.920 --> 01:57:16.880 Would that be accurate? 2241 01:57:17.920 --> 01:57:18.239 Yes? 2242 01:57:20.359 --> 01:57:21.880 And when you were there at the house that day, 2243 01:57:21.880 --> 01:57:24.399 did you make plans for the following day for Christmas Day? 2244 01:57:24.920 --> 01:57:25.159 Yes? 2245 01:57:25.199 --> 01:57:26.680 We made plans to go to Mass. 2246 01:57:27.319 --> 01:57:28.600 And who was going to go to Mass? 2247 01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:32.760 Lindsay Patrick, the kids, my wife Sue and me? 2248 01:57:33.640 --> 01:57:38.079 And did you all well straight that the following day 2249 01:57:38.079 --> 01:57:42.680 on Christmas? Did you go over to Lindsay's home before 2250 01:57:42.720 --> 01:57:43.399 going to Mass? 2251 01:57:44.920 --> 01:57:45.239 Yes? 2252 01:57:45.359 --> 01:57:47.720 Okay, did you all gather for breakfast? 2253 01:57:48.880 --> 01:57:49.880 I don't recall. 2254 01:57:51.199 --> 01:57:58.359 And giving me approach on page thirty three if you 2255 01:57:58.359 --> 01:58:01.279 even just free to yourself lies. 2256 01:58:02.520 --> 01:58:06.439 And then okay, all right? 2257 01:58:07.399 --> 01:58:07.560 Is that? 2258 01:58:09.079 --> 01:58:09.479 Yes? 2259 01:58:10.119 --> 01:58:11.920 So did you for breakfast? 2260 01:58:12.560 --> 01:58:12.920 Yes? 2261 01:58:13.479 --> 01:58:16.279 And how was Lindsay's demeanor that day? 2262 01:58:17.760 --> 01:58:19.680 It was good. She looked beautiful, she had a beautiful 2263 01:58:19.720 --> 01:58:20.079 dress on. 2264 01:58:21.079 --> 01:58:23.479 And do you recall saying previously she seemed very happy? 2265 01:58:23.479 --> 01:58:25.159 That day, Yes, she did. 2266 01:58:26.359 --> 01:58:29.600 And after breakfast, did did everyone go to church as planned? 2267 01:58:29.800 --> 01:58:30.079 Yes? 2268 01:58:30.920 --> 01:58:33.319 And how are the children in church? 2269 01:58:33.840 --> 01:58:34.439 Fantastic? 2270 01:58:34.920 --> 01:58:39.640 Very well? Behaved, very well. And then after church did 2271 01:58:39.640 --> 01:58:43.000 you have a conversation with Lindsay outside of the church? 2272 01:58:44.279 --> 01:58:46.239 I think we talked a little bit. I don't remember 2273 01:58:46.239 --> 01:58:49.439 what we said. We were going on separate ways. 2274 01:58:50.479 --> 01:58:53.439 Do you recall saying previously that Lindsay said she was 2275 01:58:53.479 --> 01:58:55.159 glad she came and she really loved it. 2276 01:58:55.439 --> 01:58:55.720 Yes. 2277 01:58:57.359 --> 01:58:59.560 What was her demeanor while she was engaging with you 2278 01:58:59.680 --> 01:59:00.760 after mass? 2279 01:59:02.039 --> 01:59:05.560 She was quiet. She said that she liked the mass 2280 01:59:05.560 --> 01:59:07.479 and she was really happy that she went. 2281 01:59:09.000 --> 01:59:15.000 And do you recall saying before that, Strit that do 2282 01:59:15.039 --> 01:59:19.479 you recall after that conversation you guys hunt each other 2283 01:59:19.520 --> 01:59:20.760 and went your separate ways? 2284 01:59:21.000 --> 01:59:21.359 Yes? 2285 01:59:22.399 --> 01:59:25.520 Did you see the family again after Christmas? 2286 01:59:27.159 --> 01:59:29.720 I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 2287 01:59:30.439 --> 01:59:32.279 Did you go to Kor's birthday party? 2288 01:59:32.840 --> 01:59:33.000 No? 2289 01:59:34.439 --> 01:59:37.840 Was it more of a kid's gathering at a trampoline place. 2290 01:59:38.319 --> 01:59:40.640 That's what I heard. Yeah, all right. 2291 01:59:41.399 --> 01:59:47.319 Did you have plans to see them Tuesday, January twenty fourth, 2292 01:59:47.399 --> 01:59:48.279 twenty twenty three. 2293 01:59:48.760 --> 01:59:48.960 No. 2294 01:59:50.000 --> 01:59:53.079 Do you recall saying previously that there were plans to 2295 01:59:53.119 --> 01:59:56.319 get together for dinner that night, but they changed because 2296 01:59:56.359 --> 01:59:58.560 your wife had plans with her brother. 2297 01:59:59.680 --> 02:00:02.239 No, we never had plans to go with that Tuesday night. 2298 02:00:02.279 --> 02:00:04.479 They asked us to come to the Tuesday night, but 2299 02:00:04.520 --> 02:00:07.079 we already had plans with Sue's sister Joan. 2300 02:00:07.359 --> 02:00:09.479 Okay, So they weren't set plans. But you were asked 2301 02:00:09.479 --> 02:00:13.239 to come to their house that night. Yeah, okay, and 2302 02:00:13.279 --> 02:00:16.359 then you couldn't couldn't go because you had other plans. 2303 02:00:16.840 --> 02:00:18.159 Right, We're going to make it for Friday. 2304 02:00:18.680 --> 02:00:26.600 Thank you for clarifying that. In terms of your interaction 2305 02:00:28.560 --> 02:00:32.199 with Lindsay and Patrick and the kids, while there were 2306 02:00:32.239 --> 02:00:35.279 some struggles going on, did you and your wife offer 2307 02:00:35.359 --> 02:00:38.640 to take the kids to your house overnight to kind 2308 02:00:38.680 --> 02:00:39.600 of give them a break? 2309 02:00:40.479 --> 02:00:42.159 I did mention that to my son. 2310 02:00:42.680 --> 02:00:44.840 And was that offered? Declined? 2311 02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:45.960 Yes. 2312 02:00:47.359 --> 02:00:56.359 And going back to Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two, when 2313 02:00:56.399 --> 02:01:01.199 you were interacting with Lindsay, I think you you previously 2314 02:01:01.239 --> 02:01:04.800 said that she her demeanor was good, she was quiet. 2315 02:01:05.039 --> 02:01:06.600 Did you also say at one point she had a 2316 02:01:06.600 --> 02:01:08.880 little blankness to her at times. 2317 02:01:08.960 --> 02:01:10.640 She seemed two at times. 2318 02:01:10.560 --> 02:01:12.640 And can you tell us like what that was? Just 2319 02:01:12.720 --> 02:01:17.159 like a stare kind of staring off into the distance, distracted, No. 2320 02:01:17.359 --> 02:01:21.920 Just not totally interacting, you know, it's sort of okay. 2321 02:01:22.039 --> 02:01:23.720 So so at some points almost. 2322 02:01:23.359 --> 02:01:27.520 Like nervous, kind of like nerves almost just like you know, 2323 02:01:29.039 --> 02:01:29.760 something like that. 2324 02:01:29.960 --> 02:01:32.560 Okay, So at some points she was staring a little bit, 2325 02:01:32.720 --> 02:01:35.079 seemed a little nervous, but then in other times she 2326 02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:38.319 was interacting with everyone as she normally would pretty much. 2327 02:01:38.520 --> 02:01:40.439 Okay. 2328 02:01:44.439 --> 02:01:48.359 You mentioned earlier when you were talking about Lindsay having 2329 02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:51.119 a little bit of difficulty getting Dawson seated at Thanksgiving 2330 02:01:51.159 --> 02:01:56.720 that he was being a little silly. Was that typical 2331 02:01:56.760 --> 02:01:58.119 for him to behave in that way? 2332 02:01:58.319 --> 02:02:00.159 Yeah, he was a handful, but he was good. He's 2333 02:02:00.159 --> 02:02:00.520 a good boy. 2334 02:02:03.680 --> 02:02:07.039 Going back to the night of January twenty fourth, twenty 2335 02:02:07.079 --> 02:02:10.439 twenty three, at some point in time that night, did 2336 02:02:10.439 --> 02:02:14.520 you get a phone call from Patrick On in January 2337 02:02:14.640 --> 02:02:16.479 January twenty fourth, twenty twenty. 2338 02:02:16.239 --> 02:02:19.680 Three, Yes, God, yes we did. 2339 02:02:20.159 --> 02:02:22.039 And what was his demeanor during that call? 2340 02:02:24.239 --> 02:02:27.279 Is this the night of the Yes, okay, yes. 2341 02:02:29.520 --> 02:02:29.800 It was. 2342 02:02:29.920 --> 02:02:30.600 It was terrible. 2343 02:02:32.079 --> 02:02:34.880 And did you and your wife leave your home and 2344 02:02:35.239 --> 02:02:37.119 head to the hospital to be with him? 2345 02:02:37.560 --> 02:02:44.560 Yes, thank you, I'm sure you're ready. 2346 02:02:44.960 --> 02:02:45.239 Thank you. 2347 02:02:47.319 --> 02:02:55.000 Definitely, definitely, mister Clancy. Just a couple of questions. You 2348 02:02:55.239 --> 02:02:57.239 were you were summonsed to be here by the DA 2349 02:02:57.319 --> 02:02:57.920 is that correct? 2350 02:02:58.239 --> 02:02:58.640 Correct? 2351 02:02:59.319 --> 02:03:03.319 And you gave statements to whoever wanted statements. 2352 02:03:03.319 --> 02:03:05.920 You were very cooperative with the investigation, is that right? 2353 02:03:06.159 --> 02:03:06.479 Yes? 2354 02:03:07.359 --> 02:03:11.880 And being as you obviously grandfather and father of Pat 2355 02:03:13.119 --> 02:03:16.039 over the years from the time they were dating, engaged, 2356 02:03:16.199 --> 02:03:20.199 married kids, you and your wife were pretty close with 2357 02:03:20.239 --> 02:03:20.680 both of. 2358 02:03:20.640 --> 02:03:21.279 Them, were you not? 2359 02:03:21.680 --> 02:03:22.039 Yes? 2360 02:03:22.640 --> 02:03:25.079 Do you have an opinion as to how Lindsay was 2361 02:03:25.119 --> 02:03:28.600 as a mother that you could see. 2362 02:03:27.880 --> 02:03:30.840 She was very, very good, She said them great, She 2363 02:03:31.600 --> 02:03:34.319 did a lot of things with them. They did like 2364 02:03:35.119 --> 02:03:36.239 the all American family. 2365 02:03:37.560 --> 02:03:43.159 And justic attorney had asked you about Thanksgiving of twenty two, 2366 02:03:43.600 --> 02:03:48.399 November sixteenth of twenty two, and she made reference I 2367 02:03:48.399 --> 02:03:51.640 think you would responded that she appeared to be quiet, 2368 02:03:51.760 --> 02:03:54.439 and then she used the term did you know about 2369 02:03:54.479 --> 02:03:55.520 the struggles? 2370 02:03:55.680 --> 02:03:57.760 Can you tell me what the struggles were? Do you 2371 02:03:57.760 --> 02:04:10.279 know what she meant by that? I knew, Thank you, sir. 2372 02:04:10.319 --> 02:04:13.079 I think I was asking you about the word the 2373 02:04:13.119 --> 02:04:16.880 struggles and can you just tell the jury what the struggle? 2374 02:04:16.960 --> 02:04:19.119 What was meant by the struggles? 2375 02:04:20.279 --> 02:04:25.159 I knew she was having a hard time sleeping. I 2376 02:04:25.239 --> 02:04:28.239 knew she just didn't feel well. I know she had 2377 02:04:28.239 --> 02:04:31.000 gone to the emergency room and my where my wife 2378 02:04:31.039 --> 02:04:34.840 was working those types of struggles. 2379 02:04:35.039 --> 02:04:37.359 And just so for the obviously for the record, your 2380 02:04:37.399 --> 02:04:40.479 wife would be Sue. Yes, and she's a nurse labor 2381 02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:41.640 and delivery it south Shore. 2382 02:04:42.159 --> 02:04:42.479 Yes. 2383 02:04:43.439 --> 02:04:47.399 And did Lindsay confide to your knowledge, yes or no, 2384 02:04:48.920 --> 02:04:52.479 to your wife about some of her issues as a 2385 02:04:52.520 --> 02:04:55.920 result of which your wife referred her to a person 2386 02:04:56.039 --> 02:04:56.600 to speak to. 2387 02:04:57.039 --> 02:04:57.359 Yes. 2388 02:04:57.560 --> 02:04:58.880 Do you know who that person was? 2389 02:04:59.680 --> 02:05:01.039 I don't remember the person's name. 2390 02:05:01.279 --> 02:05:03.600 Would that be the south Shore Perry Natle I think 2391 02:05:03.720 --> 02:05:04.359 is what it's called. 2392 02:05:04.600 --> 02:05:04.920 Yes. 2393 02:05:07.319 --> 02:05:10.640 And understanding that you're the father in law, would you 2394 02:05:10.720 --> 02:05:13.079 agree that the two of you, you and Lindsay had 2395 02:05:13.359 --> 02:05:20.119 a pretty good relationship, Yes, very good. And you told 2396 02:05:20.239 --> 02:05:23.680 us about November sixteenth, and then Thanksgiving of twenty two 2397 02:05:23.760 --> 02:05:27.479 and then up until Christmas and then after Christmas and 2398 02:05:27.680 --> 02:05:31.560 the timeframe actually right up to January twenty fourth. You 2399 02:05:31.560 --> 02:05:34.000 guys were supposed to get together that night, right. 2400 02:05:34.319 --> 02:05:39.640 Correct, Well, no, we weren't. We were asked to come 2401 02:05:39.760 --> 02:05:40.720 to dinner that you. 2402 02:05:40.640 --> 02:05:41.279 Had other plans. 2403 02:05:41.279 --> 02:05:42.039 We had other plans. 2404 02:05:42.119 --> 02:05:48.720 Okay, Justic Attorney asked you about on a number of 2405 02:05:48.760 --> 02:05:51.119 occasions about the time at your home. I think it 2406 02:05:51.199 --> 02:05:55.479 was on Thanksgiving when Dawson was acting a little rambunctious 2407 02:05:55.680 --> 02:06:01.000 or silly, and that she guided him to his See 2408 02:06:01.000 --> 02:06:02.600 your opinion of what you could observe. 2409 02:06:03.039 --> 02:06:05.199 Did you believe that she was being abusive to him 2410 02:06:05.239 --> 02:06:05.560 at all? 2411 02:06:05.840 --> 02:06:06.039 No? 2412 02:06:07.359 --> 02:06:08.479 And you know her mother. 2413 02:06:08.359 --> 02:06:11.279 And father as well, correct, And the four of you, 2414 02:06:11.880 --> 02:06:14.760 the in laws from both sides, You and your wife. 2415 02:06:14.479 --> 02:06:17.039 Sue, and Lindsay's. 2416 02:06:16.640 --> 02:06:20.039 Mother and father both were all kind of pulling together 2417 02:06:20.079 --> 02:06:23.840 to try to help this young couple out during that timeframe, right, Yes, 2418 02:06:24.880 --> 02:06:31.119 And your son Patrick, he was very concerned about his wife, 2419 02:06:31.199 --> 02:06:33.720 was he not? He was, and he confided in you 2420 02:06:33.760 --> 02:06:40.920 were on a number of occasions. Yes, I'm sorry, sir, 2421 02:06:41.239 --> 02:06:42.640 Thank you. 2422 02:06:42.720 --> 02:06:45.239 Come on, all right, thank you, sir, he said, down, 2423 02:06:45.279 --> 02:06:46.479 thank you? 2424 02:06:46.560 --> 02:06:50.840 Come well? Did I see you over here? Just scheduled the. 2425 02:06:50.800 --> 02:06:52.880 Next witness for a couple of minutes, and we're going 2426 02:06:52.920 --> 02:06:54.039 to break till two o'clock. 2427 02:06:54.560 --> 02:06:56.720 So I'm going to ask you to be ready to 2428 02:06:56.760 --> 02:06:58.000 come back here at two o'clock. 2429 02:06:58.359 --> 02:07:00.880 Same instructions I've been giving you the whole time during 2430 02:07:00.880 --> 02:07:03.319 the break, don't talk about this case. 2431 02:07:03.359 --> 02:07:05.479 So anyway, don't do any research about this. 2432 02:07:05.760 --> 02:07:09.279 Don't look into anything about this case or any similar cases. 2433 02:07:09.760 --> 02:07:12.600 H and I'll see you at two o'clock if you 2434 02:07:12.640 --> 02:07:13.680 have a nice break. 2435 02:07:17.079 --> 02:07:30.319 So we'll be in recess on this matter till two o'clock. 2436 02:07:32.199 --> 02:07:34.760 For the purpose of the For the purpose of the record, 2437 02:07:34.800 --> 02:07:36.520 we returned back to the record for the and the 2438 02:07:36.560 --> 02:07:39.039 matter of CommonWell for us as Lindsay Clancy. All Pott 2439 02:07:39.159 --> 02:07:43.000 is a present, including this Clancy, excluding the jury. 2440 02:07:43.079 --> 02:07:45.079 All right, Council be ready for the jury. 2441 02:07:45.239 --> 02:07:51.680 Yes, yes, okay, all right, this. 2442 02:07:51.840 --> 02:07:53.640 Course now session, please me see this. 2443 02:07:54.880 --> 02:07:55.800 Good afternoon, you're on. 2444 02:07:55.960 --> 02:07:57.640 For the purpose of the record, we returned back to 2445 02:07:57.680 --> 02:08:00.279 the trial of Commonwealth for us as Lindsay Clancy. All 2446 02:08:00.319 --> 02:08:03.880 parties are present, including the including a teen jers and. 2447 02:08:04.239 --> 02:08:06.439 Thank you it was a jury. Good afternoon. We're going 2448 02:08:06.479 --> 02:08:08.960 to return to the case at Tony Sprague. 2449 02:08:09.079 --> 02:08:12.800 If you're on a como called Kyle Carney, good sir, 2450 02:08:16.439 --> 02:08:16.960 excuse me? 2451 02:08:17.840 --> 02:08:18.079 Sure? 2452 02:08:20.039 --> 02:08:24.199 Hi, Good afternoon, sir, Yes, counsel, go ahead, thank. 2453 02:08:24.039 --> 02:08:25.920 You, Good afternoon. Can you please stay and spell your 2454 02:08:25.960 --> 02:08:26.680 name for the record. 2455 02:08:27.439 --> 02:08:31.079 Kyle Karney O K Y O E C A R 2456 02:08:31.279 --> 02:08:34.560 N E Y and your date of birth please July sixth, 2457 02:08:34.640 --> 02:08:35.439 nineteen ninety one. 2458 02:08:36.359 --> 02:08:39.640 And what town do you live in Duxbury? What do 2459 02:08:39.680 --> 02:08:40.359 you do for work? 2460 02:08:41.000 --> 02:08:41.840 Work in finance? 2461 02:08:42.560 --> 02:08:43.439 And are you married? 2462 02:08:43.840 --> 02:08:44.039 Yes? 2463 02:08:44.560 --> 02:08:51.159 Who's your wife Sarah Carney? And you have children? Yes? 2464 02:08:50.880 --> 02:08:54.359 Does your family or did your family know the Clancy family? 2465 02:08:54.760 --> 02:08:55.079 Yes? 2466 02:08:55.479 --> 02:08:59.239 And did you know them through your friendship with Patrick Clancy? 2467 02:08:59.720 --> 02:09:00.159 Yes? 2468 02:09:00.720 --> 02:09:02.680 When did you meet Patrick Clancy. 2469 02:09:03.439 --> 02:09:07.119 Two thousand and nine and how did you meet We 2470 02:09:07.159 --> 02:09:08.439 went to college together. 2471 02:09:09.159 --> 02:09:12.880 And after going through college together, did you remain friends 2472 02:09:12.920 --> 02:09:13.640 after school? 2473 02:09:14.319 --> 02:09:14.680 Yes? 2474 02:09:15.439 --> 02:09:21.479 And eventually did you end up living in Duxbury at 2475 02:09:21.479 --> 02:09:24.439 the same time Patrick and his family lived in Duxbury? 2476 02:09:24.840 --> 02:09:25.199 Yes? 2477 02:09:27.880 --> 02:09:30.000 When did you meet Lindsay Clancy. 2478 02:09:32.039 --> 02:09:33.079 Maybe twelve years ago? 2479 02:09:34.560 --> 02:09:36.439 Did you meet them before they were married? Did you 2480 02:09:36.439 --> 02:09:38.119 meet Lindsay before she married Patrick? 2481 02:09:38.439 --> 02:09:38.720 Yes? 2482 02:09:38.880 --> 02:09:43.359 Okay, and then obviously you knew them after they got 2483 02:09:43.359 --> 02:09:44.800 married and as they had their children. 2484 02:09:46.520 --> 02:09:46.840 Yes. 2485 02:09:48.960 --> 02:09:51.880 How often would you see Patrick and his family while 2486 02:09:51.920 --> 02:09:53.560 you were both living in. 2487 02:09:53.560 --> 02:09:57.840 Duxbury maybe every other month? 2488 02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:05.039 And would you interact with Lindsay Clancy during those gatherings? 2489 02:10:05.840 --> 02:10:06.199 Yes? 2490 02:10:06.640 --> 02:10:08.960 And what was her typical demeanor? 2491 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:13.159 Kind caring. 2492 02:10:14.319 --> 02:10:17.479 Did you ever see any changes, significant changes in her 2493 02:10:17.800 --> 02:10:20.239 behavior or demeanor when you would interact with her? 2494 02:10:21.279 --> 02:10:21.359 No. 2495 02:10:24.880 --> 02:10:29.600 Did you notice any changes in Lindsay Clancy after the 2496 02:10:29.600 --> 02:10:36.359 birth of Cora or Dawson, No, directing your attention to 2497 02:10:36.640 --> 02:10:40.199 after Callum Clancy was born. Did you interact with the 2498 02:10:40.199 --> 02:10:41.479 Clancy family that summer? 2499 02:10:42.199 --> 02:10:42.520 Yes? 2500 02:10:42.920 --> 02:10:43.479 And how so. 2501 02:10:45.720 --> 02:10:49.640 Beach dinners. It's hard to recall exactly. 2502 02:10:50.239 --> 02:10:52.119 So you said beach dinners. Is that what you said? 2503 02:10:52.479 --> 02:10:52.800 Yes? 2504 02:10:53.039 --> 02:10:56.119 So basically family is gathering together at the beach, having dinner, 2505 02:10:56.920 --> 02:10:57.920 interacting with each other. 2506 02:10:58.039 --> 02:10:58.439 Is that right? 2507 02:10:58.680 --> 02:10:59.079 Sure? 2508 02:11:00.159 --> 02:11:02.399 How often would you do that during the summer of 2509 02:11:02.439 --> 02:11:03.199 twenty twenty two? 2510 02:11:05.359 --> 02:11:09.479 I couldn't tell you exactly more than once, Yeah, like 2511 02:11:09.479 --> 02:11:10.239 at least monthly. 2512 02:11:11.479 --> 02:11:13.960 Did you also go fishing with Patrick during that time? 2513 02:11:14.279 --> 02:11:14.640 Yes? 2514 02:11:16.199 --> 02:11:18.479 Over the summer of twenty twenty two, did you notice 2515 02:11:18.479 --> 02:11:22.640 any differences in Lindsay Clancy's demeanor or behavior. 2516 02:11:24.319 --> 02:11:24.399 No. 2517 02:11:27.920 --> 02:11:31.640 Throughout the fall of twenty twenty two into the beginning 2518 02:11:31.720 --> 02:11:36.399 of January twenty twenty three, would you see Patrick Clancy? 2519 02:11:36.479 --> 02:11:36.840 Yes? 2520 02:11:37.079 --> 02:11:41.479 How often did you see them again? 2521 02:11:41.560 --> 02:11:41.920 Maybe? 2522 02:11:42.520 --> 02:11:43.840 Once a month? Maybe? 2523 02:11:44.800 --> 02:11:48.920 And directing your attention to Sunday, January twenty second, twenty 2524 02:11:48.960 --> 02:11:51.800 twenty three, did you have a small gathering at your home? 2525 02:11:53.359 --> 02:11:55.199 Yes, their family came over to my house. 2526 02:11:55.760 --> 02:11:57.479 And when you say their family, are you talking about 2527 02:11:57.560 --> 02:11:59.079 Patrick Clancy and Lindsay. 2528 02:11:58.960 --> 02:12:03.199 Clancy and Cora and Dawson too. 2529 02:12:04.000 --> 02:12:05.520 Callen didn't join them. 2530 02:12:05.760 --> 02:12:05.840 No? 2531 02:12:06.680 --> 02:12:08.439 Was he home with Lindsay's parents? 2532 02:12:09.159 --> 02:12:09.520 Yes? 2533 02:12:11.199 --> 02:12:15.119 And what was the purpose of gathering that day? 2534 02:12:17.079 --> 02:12:18.840 Socialize? It was a nice day out. 2535 02:12:19.079 --> 02:12:21.960 I was having a fire to burn some brush in 2536 02:12:21.960 --> 02:12:25.199 my backyard and thought it'd be nice to invite them 2537 02:12:25.279 --> 02:12:28.000 to come over and get the kids out and enjoy 2538 02:12:28.000 --> 02:12:28.520 a nice day. 2539 02:12:30.039 --> 02:12:35.960 And what was Lindsay's demeanor that day? 2540 02:12:36.760 --> 02:12:37.920 Is it quieter than normal? 2541 02:12:41.399 --> 02:12:45.600 And do you recall saying previously that the weekend was 2542 02:12:45.600 --> 02:12:48.840 fairly normal, that Lindsay had always been a little tough 2543 02:12:48.880 --> 02:12:52.520 to get a beat on kind of quiet. But you 2544 02:12:52.560 --> 02:12:54.520 were in the kitchen talking and it seemed normal. 2545 02:12:56.159 --> 02:12:59.359 I mean, in the kitchen, we had a conversation and 2546 02:12:59.399 --> 02:13:01.079 that was normal normal, Okay. 2547 02:13:03.560 --> 02:13:06.319 Do you recall describing the day previously as a perfectly 2548 02:13:06.359 --> 02:13:07.880 normal afternoon, really. 2549 02:13:07.720 --> 02:13:09.359 Nice it was? 2550 02:13:09.520 --> 02:13:13.640 It was a nice day, yeah, And so there was 2551 02:13:13.720 --> 02:13:17.239 nothing out of the normal that happened that day in 2552 02:13:17.319 --> 02:13:19.920 terms of Lindsay's behavior or demeanor. 2553 02:13:22.600 --> 02:13:25.399 Her behavior demeanor appeared normal. 2554 02:13:27.640 --> 02:13:29.920 Did you have any problems communicating with her when you 2555 02:13:29.960 --> 02:13:31.560 had conversation in the kitchen? 2556 02:13:32.279 --> 02:13:32.359 No? 2557 02:13:35.359 --> 02:13:38.399 How long was the family there at your house that day? 2558 02:13:39.479 --> 02:13:40.399 Maybe a few hours? 2559 02:13:41.800 --> 02:13:45.039 And during that time I believe you described it previously 2560 02:13:45.079 --> 02:13:47.399 as a normal, great day. Would that be accurate? 2561 02:13:49.760 --> 02:13:57.000 Yes, thank you, it's rington. I have no questions. Thank you, sir. 2562 02:13:57.079 --> 02:13:59.720 Fine, Thank you, sir. If you stip down, thank you, thank. 2563 02:14:01.239 --> 02:14:01.279 You. 2564 02:14:02.239 --> 02:14:24.800 Call Andrew next business, Thank you, Anthidon, sir, thank you, 2565 02:14:25.439 --> 02:14:27.479 Good afternoon, sir. Can you tell the jurors your first 2566 02:14:27.520 --> 02:14:31.199 and last name, Andrew? Can you please spell your last 2567 02:14:31.239 --> 02:14:34.399 name for the record, C h I A c h IO. 2568 02:14:34.840 --> 02:14:35.840 And what do you do for work? 2569 02:14:36.199 --> 02:14:37.279 I work for the state Police? 2570 02:14:37.640 --> 02:14:39.920 And how long have you been with the state Police. 2571 02:14:39.479 --> 02:14:41.720 Since December of twenty thirteen. 2572 02:14:41.920 --> 02:14:43.319 And what's your current assignment. 2573 02:14:43.720 --> 02:14:46.279 I work for the Plymouth County State Police Detective Unit. 2574 02:14:46.399 --> 02:14:48.680 How long have you been with the State Police Detective 2575 02:14:48.800 --> 02:14:51.479 Unit five years? And what's your current rank? 2576 02:14:51.920 --> 02:14:52.319 Sodeant. 2577 02:14:52.960 --> 02:14:55.600 I'm going to draw your attention back to January twenty 2578 02:14:55.640 --> 02:14:57.760 fourth of the year twenty twenty three, were you still 2579 02:14:57.800 --> 02:15:00.279 working for the State Police detective unit with the District 2580 02:15:00.279 --> 02:15:04.560 Attorney's Office, then yes. And do you recall being called 2581 02:15:04.600 --> 02:15:07.880 into an investigation in regards to an incident that had 2582 02:15:07.880 --> 02:15:10.680 happened in the town of Duxbury on January twenty fourth, 2583 02:15:10.760 --> 02:15:11.520 twenty twenty three. 2584 02:15:11.720 --> 02:15:11.960 Yes? 2585 02:15:12.279 --> 02:15:14.880 Were you assigned as the case officer for that investigation 2586 02:15:14.920 --> 02:15:18.079 at that time? No, but you're aware that a number 2587 02:15:18.159 --> 02:15:20.520 of the other troopers in your unit were all called 2588 02:15:20.560 --> 02:15:23.720 out to do different parts of the investigation. 2589 02:15:24.079 --> 02:15:24.239 Yes. 2590 02:15:24.479 --> 02:15:27.840 Do you recall if you actually went first to forty 2591 02:15:27.840 --> 02:15:28.680 seven Summer. 2592 02:15:28.399 --> 02:15:30.000 Street, Yes, I did. 2593 02:15:30.359 --> 02:15:34.000 Did were you quickly assigned to go someplace else and 2594 02:15:34.079 --> 02:15:37.279 do some follow up investigation? And one of the places 2595 02:15:37.279 --> 02:15:40.119 that you went on that night was the CVS in Kingston? 2596 02:15:40.159 --> 02:15:40.520 Correct? 2597 02:15:40.560 --> 02:15:40.920 Correct? 2598 02:15:41.000 --> 02:15:42.960 That would have been at one eighty nine Summer Street. 2599 02:15:43.119 --> 02:15:43.359 Yes. 2600 02:15:43.439 --> 02:15:46.079 Why were you asked to go to the CBS in Kingston. 2601 02:15:45.880 --> 02:15:47.800 To obtain surveillance video? 2602 02:15:48.239 --> 02:15:53.079 And had you learned information that the one of the homeowners, 2603 02:15:53.159 --> 02:15:56.600 the Patrick Clancy, might have visited that location earlier in 2604 02:15:56.600 --> 02:15:57.079 the evening? 2605 02:15:57.359 --> 02:15:57.600 Yes? 2606 02:15:58.039 --> 02:16:00.479 And so when you got to the CBS, did you 2607 02:16:00.520 --> 02:16:03.520 contact somebody in the store in order to try to 2608 02:16:03.720 --> 02:16:07.079 determine whether there was surveillance. Yes, And did you speak 2609 02:16:07.119 --> 02:16:09.760 with an employee there? Do you recall who you spoke. 2610 02:16:09.520 --> 02:16:11.600 To, Angela Crouse here's the manager. 2611 02:16:11.920 --> 02:16:15.520 Were you able to get access to the surveillance at 2612 02:16:15.520 --> 02:16:15.960 that time? 2613 02:16:16.159 --> 02:16:16.399 Yes? 2614 02:16:16.920 --> 02:16:20.840 And were you able to observe the time on the 2615 02:16:20.840 --> 02:16:24.239 surveillance at the store as it pertains to real time? 2616 02:16:24.520 --> 02:16:24.800 Yes? 2617 02:16:24.960 --> 02:16:28.039 So tell us how you determine whether the time was accurate. 2618 02:16:28.279 --> 02:16:30.039 We look at the live feed and I compare it 2619 02:16:30.079 --> 02:16:31.079 with my cell. 2620 02:16:30.920 --> 02:16:33.120 Phone, and your cell phone is a department it should 2621 02:16:33.120 --> 02:16:33.639 cell phone? 2622 02:16:33.719 --> 02:16:33.959 Yes? 2623 02:16:34.600 --> 02:16:37.159 Did you notice any discrepancies in the time stamps? 2624 02:16:37.239 --> 02:16:37.600 I did not. 2625 02:16:38.479 --> 02:16:42.159 And after viewing the video surveillance there at CVS, were 2626 02:16:42.159 --> 02:16:46.360 you able to see Patrick Clancy in the store at CVS? 2627 02:16:46.520 --> 02:16:46.760 Yes? 2628 02:16:47.120 --> 02:16:49.239 And fair to say you were able to track that 2629 02:16:49.280 --> 02:16:52.559 he arrived at seventeen thirty two thirty two and exited 2630 02:16:52.600 --> 02:16:56.959 the store at seventeen thirty seven zero eight. Yes, at 2631 02:16:56.959 --> 02:17:00.000 some point where you also asked to look for surveillance 2632 02:17:00.159 --> 02:17:04.159 at a different location. I was what was the second location, the. 2633 02:17:04.040 --> 02:17:05.120 Three V restaurant? 2634 02:17:05.319 --> 02:17:08.840 And where is that located in Plymouth? And fair to 2635 02:17:08.879 --> 02:17:12.280 say it's the address there's ten Cordage Park Circle. Yes, 2636 02:17:12.360 --> 02:17:16.360 what is three V a restaurant, okay, And why did 2637 02:17:16.360 --> 02:17:21.159 you go there surveillance video? Again, based on information that 2638 02:17:21.200 --> 02:17:24.479 you had available to you, did you believe that Patrick 2639 02:17:24.520 --> 02:17:27.879 Clancy had visited that location earlier in the evening of 2640 02:17:27.920 --> 02:17:31.319 January twenty fourth, Yes, And when you went to the 2641 02:17:31.360 --> 02:17:33.719 three V restaurant, did you speak with two employees there? 2642 02:17:34.120 --> 02:17:34.440 Yes? 2643 02:17:34.559 --> 02:17:38.319 Were you able to access the video surveillance I was? 2644 02:17:38.840 --> 02:17:42.200 And while at the restaurant, were you able to confirm 2645 02:17:42.319 --> 02:17:45.559 Patrick Clancy on their video surveillance? Yes, Now, as far 2646 02:17:45.600 --> 02:17:48.520 as their video surveillance time stamps three able to observe 2647 02:17:48.559 --> 02:17:51.959 the time stamps at that location, I was. And did 2648 02:17:52.000 --> 02:17:53.879 you notice any discrepancies about the time? 2649 02:17:54.079 --> 02:17:54.159 No? 2650 02:17:54.760 --> 02:17:57.079 And what did you do to confirm the time? 2651 02:17:57.440 --> 02:17:59.440 I compared the live feed with my cell phone? 2652 02:18:00.319 --> 02:18:03.840 Fair to say you were able to determine that the 2653 02:18:04.000 --> 02:18:08.239 video surveillance did confirm Patrick Clancy arriving at seventeen fifty 2654 02:18:08.280 --> 02:18:11.680 four fourteen, that he paid for a bag of food, 2655 02:18:11.680 --> 02:18:13.879 and he left the store by the front door at 2656 02:18:13.879 --> 02:18:18.440 seventeen fifty five oh one. Yes, Now, in addition to 2657 02:18:19.000 --> 02:18:22.079 gathering the video surveillance, Well, let me back up for 2658 02:18:22.079 --> 02:18:24.959 a second. So on one particular occasion, you were able 2659 02:18:24.959 --> 02:18:27.920 to go and view the video surveillance correcked at some 2660 02:18:28.040 --> 02:18:31.440 later date where you provided with copies of the video 2661 02:18:31.479 --> 02:18:34.360 surveillance from both the CVS and Kingston and the three 2662 02:18:34.959 --> 02:18:39.600 three the restaurant in Plymouth. Yes, and you brought that 2663 02:18:39.639 --> 02:18:41.920 back to the state Police. 2664 02:18:42.200 --> 02:18:43.559 Yes, the video. 2665 02:18:43.959 --> 02:18:50.799 Yes. Now, as follow up for this investigation, did you 2666 02:18:50.920 --> 02:18:55.280 learn information about the route of travel Patrick Clancy took 2667 02:18:55.319 --> 02:18:58.680 that night to go from his home to these locations? 2668 02:18:58.959 --> 02:18:59.200 Yes? 2669 02:18:59.399 --> 02:19:02.280 Did you do anything to try to ascertain approximately how 2670 02:19:02.360 --> 02:19:04.559 much time it would have taken him to go to 2671 02:19:04.600 --> 02:19:07.319 these locations from his home at forty seven Summer Street. 2672 02:19:07.239 --> 02:19:11.280 Yes, I mapped it on the maps application on my iPhone. 2673 02:19:11.680 --> 02:19:13.520 Now do you recall when you did that? 2674 02:19:14.120 --> 02:19:14.559 I don't. 2675 02:19:16.239 --> 02:19:19.920 When you did this mapping of the locations, did it 2676 02:19:19.920 --> 02:19:23.600 give you approximate distances and times between the locations? Yes, 2677 02:19:24.079 --> 02:19:27.440 and fair to say, not knowing exactly when it occurred 2678 02:19:27.520 --> 02:19:30.440 doesn't account for the time Patrick would have been there, 2679 02:19:30.559 --> 02:19:34.280 or any traffic or accidents or anything like that. But 2680 02:19:34.360 --> 02:19:36.120 as far as you could tell, you were just looking 2681 02:19:36.120 --> 02:19:37.600 for approximate timeframes. 2682 02:19:37.719 --> 02:19:38.799 Yes, the general idea. 2683 02:19:39.959 --> 02:19:43.520 Now, as part of this investigation, you also were involved 2684 02:19:43.520 --> 02:19:47.879 in some interviews with potential witnesses yes, not fair to say, 2685 02:19:47.920 --> 02:19:53.360 including Paula Musgrove Yes, and who's Paula Musgrove to mother? 2686 02:19:54.399 --> 02:19:56.719 And you also spoke to a former nanny of the 2687 02:19:56.760 --> 02:20:00.920 Clancys named Elaine Flaherty Yes, as well as the employees 2688 02:20:00.959 --> 02:20:05.079 from CBS, Angela Krause and Saraya Sweeney. 2689 02:20:05.280 --> 02:20:05.559 Yes. 2690 02:20:06.840 --> 02:20:09.559 Did you also or were you also present and follow 2691 02:20:09.639 --> 02:20:12.680 up interviews with all of the first responders to the 2692 02:20:13.040 --> 02:20:16.120 home in Duxbury on January twenty fourth, Not all of them, 2693 02:20:16.120 --> 02:20:17.840 but a lot of them, so that would have been 2694 02:20:17.840 --> 02:20:21.399 a majority of the paramedics slash firefighters from the different towns. 2695 02:20:21.479 --> 02:20:21.680 Yes. 2696 02:20:23.719 --> 02:20:27.000 On June twelfth of twenty twenty three, did you apply 2697 02:20:27.079 --> 02:20:30.159 for and receive a search warrant for forty seven Summer Street. 2698 02:20:30.479 --> 02:20:30.719 Yes? 2699 02:20:31.200 --> 02:20:34.479 And why why did you ask for a search warrant? Then? 2700 02:20:34.719 --> 02:20:36.200 In June of twenty twenty. 2701 02:20:35.920 --> 02:20:39.600 Three, we were reviewing photos crime scene photos, and someone 2702 02:20:39.680 --> 02:20:42.000 noticed that there was potentially bloodstands on the outside of 2703 02:20:42.040 --> 02:20:44.479 the house that we had not swabbed, so. 2704 02:20:44.719 --> 02:20:47.159 To your knowledge, on the date of the incident on 2705 02:20:47.239 --> 02:20:50.280 January twenty fourth, the stains on the outside of the 2706 02:20:50.319 --> 02:20:53.760 house were not swabbed and collected by the crime lab, right? 2707 02:20:53.920 --> 02:20:54.239 Correct? 2708 02:20:54.559 --> 02:20:57.879 Did you have conversation for the conversations with forensic scientists 2709 02:20:57.920 --> 02:21:01.399 at the crime lab to determine the vibe of obtaining 2710 02:21:02.040 --> 02:21:05.479 additional swabs all those months later and. 2711 02:21:05.440 --> 02:21:06.479 It's already been crossing. 2712 02:21:07.360 --> 02:21:09.440 Allow that the question just yes or no? Did you 2713 02:21:09.479 --> 02:21:11.319 speak to somebody? Not the answer? 2714 02:21:12.200 --> 02:21:13.879 So, did you speak to somebody at the crime lab 2715 02:21:13.920 --> 02:21:18.280 about the possibility of obtaining some biological substances from the home? 2716 02:21:18.559 --> 02:21:18.799 Yes? 2717 02:21:19.079 --> 02:21:21.799 And as a result of your conversations, did you then 2718 02:21:21.840 --> 02:21:23.360 apply and were granted a search? 2719 02:21:23.399 --> 02:21:24.120 Weren't? Yes? 2720 02:21:24.600 --> 02:21:30.079 So subsequently some swabs and shingles were collected from the 2721 02:21:30.120 --> 02:21:32.920 home at forty seven Summer Street, correct. And were you 2722 02:21:32.959 --> 02:21:33.959 present when that was done? 2723 02:21:34.040 --> 02:21:34.520 I was. 2724 02:21:36.520 --> 02:21:40.399 On May fifteenth, twenty twenty four. Did you have the 2725 02:21:40.440 --> 02:21:42.559 occasion to go to the Twokespari State Hospital. 2726 02:21:42.799 --> 02:21:43.120 Yes? 2727 02:21:43.159 --> 02:21:45.040 And what was the purpose of going there. 2728 02:21:45.239 --> 02:21:46.760 To collect DNA from the defendant? 2729 02:21:47.319 --> 02:21:50.879 And is there a particular procedure that you, as an 2730 02:21:50.920 --> 02:21:54.040 investigator use in order to collect a sample a DNA 2731 02:21:54.120 --> 02:21:55.000 sample from somebody? 2732 02:21:55.159 --> 02:21:56.879 Yeah, we used a DNA collection kit. 2733 02:21:56.959 --> 02:21:59.040 It has a foam swab that you used to have 2734 02:21:59.040 --> 02:22:01.760 swab the inside of a person's mouth to collect saliva 2735 02:22:02.399 --> 02:22:05.280 that's then transferred to a collection cod We let it dry, 2736 02:22:05.319 --> 02:22:06.079 then seal the kit. 2737 02:22:06.639 --> 02:22:09.399 So the swab kind of looks like a lollipop, Yes, 2738 02:22:09.520 --> 02:22:12.760 with a foam And yes, and you're trained on how 2739 02:22:12.799 --> 02:22:15.920 to swab the inside of a person's cheek on both 2740 02:22:15.959 --> 02:22:19.079 sides in order to obtain an adequate sample. Yes, and 2741 02:22:19.159 --> 02:22:20.200 you did that in this case. 2742 02:22:20.319 --> 02:22:20.600 I did. 2743 02:22:20.639 --> 02:22:23.479 Who did you collect the sample from the defendant? And 2744 02:22:23.520 --> 02:22:24.680 that would be Lindsay Clancy? 2745 02:22:24.799 --> 02:22:25.200 Correct. 2746 02:22:25.959 --> 02:22:27.799 Were other people present when you did this? 2747 02:22:28.120 --> 02:22:28.360 Yes? 2748 02:22:28.840 --> 02:22:29.559 Who were they? 2749 02:22:29.840 --> 02:22:34.639 Sogerant, Josh Mcalligan, DPH Police Chief Michael Riggs, and Charni Reddickton. 2750 02:22:35.280 --> 02:22:38.000 What did you do with the sample that was collected 2751 02:22:38.040 --> 02:22:41.000 from the defendant on May fifteenth, twenty twenty four, at 2752 02:22:41.040 --> 02:22:42.360 the Checksparre State Hospital. 2753 02:22:42.559 --> 02:22:45.319 It was placed in a temporary evidence at the DA's office. 2754 02:22:46.639 --> 02:22:50.079 Was that sample then later transported to the state Police 2755 02:22:50.079 --> 02:22:50.639 crime lab? 2756 02:22:50.840 --> 02:22:51.079 Yes? 2757 02:22:53.360 --> 02:22:56.159 Now, another thing that you did in this investigation sometime 2758 02:22:56.239 --> 02:22:59.879 later was seek search warrants to Facebook or what's no 2759 02:23:00.040 --> 02:23:04.040 as meta correct correct, as well as a particular Facebook 2760 02:23:04.079 --> 02:23:07.959 group called attachment Parenting for Little's Correct. As a result 2761 02:23:08.040 --> 02:23:11.040 of that warrant. Did you receive data back from Facebook? 2762 02:23:11.239 --> 02:23:14.559 I did, and were you able to confirm a Facebook 2763 02:23:14.559 --> 02:23:17.840 page in the name of Lindsay Marie Clancy. Were you 2764 02:23:17.920 --> 02:23:22.319 also able to confirm that there's a particular post by 2765 02:23:22.440 --> 02:23:26.440 the person named Lindsay Marie Clancy or the Facebook page 2766 02:23:26.440 --> 02:23:30.239 Lindsay Marie Clancy on May fifth, twenty one, to the 2767 02:23:30.280 --> 02:23:38.040 attachment Parenting for Little's group. Yes, I'm just gonna approach you. 2768 02:23:38.120 --> 02:23:41.319 May I have no problem with no objection. 2769 02:23:43.000 --> 02:23:45.200 I'm just going to show you a document. Is that 2770 02:23:45.239 --> 02:23:49.799 familiar to you? And is this the face posted. 2771 02:23:55.159 --> 02:23:57.159 No objection? That may be admitted? 2772 02:23:59.040 --> 02:24:01.639 Sergeant Kakio just knowing you what's now been marked as 2773 02:24:01.760 --> 02:24:05.040 Exhibit two hundred and seventeen on the screen. Is that 2774 02:24:06.879 --> 02:24:11.479 a Facebook post from the attachment Parenting for Little's Facebook group. Yes, 2775 02:24:11.879 --> 02:24:15.040 And through the information you received from the search work return, 2776 02:24:15.079 --> 02:24:18.360 you were able to locate the content of this post 2777 02:24:18.840 --> 02:24:21.840 in the records for the attachment Parenting for Littles and 2778 02:24:21.879 --> 02:24:25.760 confirm that it also appeared to be authored by Lindsay 2779 02:24:25.840 --> 02:24:28.959 Murray Clancy correct. Correct or by the Facebook page of 2780 02:24:29.040 --> 02:24:29.920 Lindsay Murray Clancy. 2781 02:24:30.079 --> 02:24:31.520 Yes, and. 2782 02:24:32.840 --> 02:24:36.520 Her to say it reads Hello, lovely parents. I'm looking 2783 02:24:36.600 --> 02:24:42.000 for some advice, solidarity, ideas, something anything. I'm truly finding 2784 02:24:42.040 --> 02:24:44.239 my nineteen month old to be the most difficult human 2785 02:24:44.280 --> 02:24:46.959 I've ever encountered. I mean that with all love in 2786 02:24:47.000 --> 02:24:48.760 my heart, but I honestly cannot make it through a 2787 02:24:48.840 --> 02:24:51.680 day without getting so frustrated with him. He's not my 2788 02:24:51.719 --> 02:24:55.040 first child, so not to compare, because I know that 2789 02:24:55.079 --> 02:24:57.799 every child is different, but just for background, this isn't 2790 02:24:57.840 --> 02:25:02.840 my first rodeo. Every single thing with him is a battle, 2791 02:25:03.360 --> 02:25:05.719 and it has been this way for a while, since 2792 02:25:05.760 --> 02:25:08.399 he was maybe eight months old. I really try to 2793 02:25:08.440 --> 02:25:11.479 pick my battles and only do what's completely necessary, but 2794 02:25:11.559 --> 02:25:14.079 I mean everything getting out of his crib in the 2795 02:25:14.079 --> 02:25:18.120 morning and going downstairs, changing his diaper, getting him dressed, 2796 02:25:18.479 --> 02:25:20.799 getting him in his seat to eat, getting him in 2797 02:25:20.840 --> 02:25:23.120 the car seat, getting him out of the car seat, 2798 02:25:23.520 --> 02:25:26.479 putting on his jacket and shoes to go outside, having 2799 02:25:26.559 --> 02:25:29.479 him come inside when it's time, going to sleep for 2800 02:25:29.559 --> 02:25:32.200 his nap, and at night. He fights me every step 2801 02:25:32.239 --> 02:25:35.360 of the way. With all these normal daily activities. It 2802 02:25:35.399 --> 02:25:38.040 constantly feels like I have a force. I have to 2803 02:25:38.159 --> 02:25:40.760 force him to do these things, which feels so wrong, 2804 02:25:41.079 --> 02:25:43.399 but he is always fighting me and crying about doing 2805 02:25:43.440 --> 02:25:46.559 these very normal things. You recall seeing that message in 2806 02:25:46.600 --> 02:25:49.680 the records. I do, and I'm fair to say there 2807 02:25:49.879 --> 02:25:53.559 was some comments to the records and also an acknowledgment 2808 02:25:53.920 --> 02:25:56.719 by the person with the Facebook page, Lenzie Marie Clancy, 2809 02:25:57.120 --> 02:26:00.000 thanking the contributors for their advice. 2810 02:26:00.280 --> 02:26:02.600 Yes, have no further questions. 2811 02:26:04.040 --> 02:26:04.799 It's you're ready to. 2812 02:26:08.200 --> 02:26:08.799 Define answer. 2813 02:26:10.079 --> 02:26:15.680 This would be Exhibit seventeen, which is the parenting for 2814 02:26:15.799 --> 02:26:20.760 Littles post by Lindsay correct. Correct, And this was back 2815 02:26:20.760 --> 02:26:25.840 in May of twenty twenty one. Yes, and she was 2816 02:26:25.879 --> 02:26:29.360 talking about her son, who at the time was nineteen 2817 02:26:29.360 --> 02:26:29.879 months old. 2818 02:26:30.200 --> 02:26:30.799 That's correct. 2819 02:26:31.520 --> 02:26:33.600 Now, as a state police officer, you know I had 2820 02:26:33.600 --> 02:26:36.959 to investigate things, right, Yes, you guys must have turned 2821 02:26:37.120 --> 02:26:41.200 things inside out to find out if Lindsay Clancy was 2822 02:26:41.319 --> 02:26:45.440 ever abusive to her son Dawson. 2823 02:26:45.680 --> 02:26:46.760 Right, that's correct. 2824 02:26:47.120 --> 02:26:49.520 Found nothing, did you? No, thank you? 2825 02:26:49.600 --> 02:26:51.680 It's all you have anything on that? 2826 02:26:52.280 --> 02:26:53.159 No, thank you? 2827 02:26:53.200 --> 02:27:01.879 Se me step down. I'll sure all right. 2828 02:27:02.639 --> 02:27:06.639 Remembers of the jury, there's emotion or hearing I have 2829 02:27:06.719 --> 02:27:09.360 to do with the lawyers, and. 2830 02:27:09.319 --> 02:27:11.360 It's gonna take a little bit of a watch. 2831 02:27:11.440 --> 02:27:15.159 So I'm gonna excuse you for today, go back tomorrow 2832 02:27:15.399 --> 02:27:16.000 nine o'clock. 2833 02:27:16.959 --> 02:27:19.840 One of the questions I asked over here was where 2834 02:27:19.879 --> 02:27:20.799 are we on the time? 2835 02:27:20.840 --> 02:27:22.079 As all right? 2836 02:27:22.239 --> 02:27:26.799 I'm told that we are on schedule, if not at 2837 02:27:26.840 --> 02:27:29.680 a schedule in regards to what we told you. All right, 2838 02:27:30.079 --> 02:27:33.600 So I'm gonna excuse you till tomorrow. We're gonna stay here, 2839 02:27:34.079 --> 02:27:37.440 do a few more things, and I'm just gonna remind you, 2840 02:27:39.319 --> 02:27:43.239 as I've said every night, you have to it's an 2841 02:27:43.280 --> 02:27:47.440 open mind. Don't talk about this with anyone. I don't 2842 02:27:47.440 --> 02:27:50.600 do any research about anything. If you see anything about 2843 02:27:50.959 --> 02:27:55.520 this case or any similar cases, don't read, listen, or 2844 02:27:55.559 --> 02:27:58.719 watch anything in regards to that. I don't do any 2845 02:27:58.799 --> 02:28:01.959 research on this or any matters that you have. The 2846 02:28:02.120 --> 02:28:04.479 questions you have in your mind. I don't take any 2847 02:28:04.879 --> 02:28:07.920 field trips. Don't happen to just be driving by certain areas. 2848 02:28:07.959 --> 02:28:11.120 Then you think you want to double check. We've done that, 2849 02:28:11.520 --> 02:28:15.200 all right. So you've worked so hard this case so far. 2850 02:28:15.520 --> 02:28:18.520 I just want you to continue to follow those instructions, 2851 02:28:19.000 --> 02:28:21.680 and with that, I'm going to excuse you until tomorrow. 2852 02:28:22.399 --> 02:28:24.399 I would expect, and every time I say this, I'm 2853 02:28:24.479 --> 02:28:27.319 usually wrong, but I would expect we'd have a pretty 2854 02:28:27.360 --> 02:28:30.840 full day tomorrow, okay, And so with that, I hope 2855 02:28:30.840 --> 02:28:33.680 you have a nice evening, hope you stay cool, and 2856 02:28:33.719 --> 02:28:35.479 we will see you tomorrow. 2857 02:28:35.639 --> 02:28:36.600 So thank you very much. 2858 02:28:44.559 --> 02:28:44.879 Session. 2859 02:28:45.879 --> 02:28:48.520 All right, So we're going to be in recess until 2860 02:28:48.559 --> 02:28:51.360 three o'clock. We're going to come back have a hearing 2861 02:28:51.520 --> 02:28:53.760 on the defendis motion. 2862 02:28:55.040 --> 02:28:57.959 For permission to call certain witnesses, and so we'll have 2863 02:28:58.000 --> 02:28:59.959 a hearing on that at three o'clock. 2864 02:29:00.079 --> 02:29:02.520 All right, so we'll be in recess, so basically so 2865 02:29:03.280 --> 02:29:04.159 parties can kind of. 2866 02:29:04.079 --> 02:29:06.239 Get themselves oriented in regards to that motion. 2867 02:29:06.680 --> 02:29:11.879 So we'll be in recess, all right. 2868 02:29:23.200 --> 02:29:24.360 The record we returned. 2869 02:29:27.799 --> 02:29:29.840 Excre the jury. All right. 2870 02:29:31.079 --> 02:29:34.639 Well, what I wanted to do was here are the 2871 02:29:34.799 --> 02:29:41.920 arguments in regards to the defendant's motion for permission to 2872 02:29:41.959 --> 02:29:46.000 call witnesses. I know that this was filed this morning, 2873 02:29:46.040 --> 02:29:49.879 but it's kind of handed glove with issues that were 2874 02:29:49.959 --> 02:29:53.360 raised a couple of weeks ago. Same at least mentioned 2875 02:29:53.399 --> 02:29:57.000 the same witnesses. So so I'm gonna hear first from 2876 02:29:57.040 --> 02:29:59.760 the cam, first from the defendant, they'll hear from the 2877 02:29:59.799 --> 02:30:04.159 car wealth. I will probably take it under advisement and 2878 02:30:04.280 --> 02:30:09.040 review some of the other documents. But I want to 2879 02:30:09.040 --> 02:30:12.120 make this decision as soon as they can, so everybody 2880 02:30:12.200 --> 02:30:16.879 kind of can plan on how they go based on 2881 02:30:17.040 --> 02:30:20.879 the decision. So mister Reddington, let me hear you first 2882 02:30:20.959 --> 02:30:21.200 on this. 2883 02:30:21.719 --> 02:30:25.559 You run, obviously, I don't have to believe the obvious. 2884 02:30:26.120 --> 02:30:31.000 This is a murder trow, very serious business, and we've 2885 02:30:31.040 --> 02:30:33.760 all been working very hard on the discovery, which is 2886 02:30:33.840 --> 02:30:37.760 you can tell is voluminous, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds 2887 02:30:37.799 --> 02:30:41.719 of pages of state police interviews and I mentioned you 2888 02:30:41.760 --> 02:30:45.319 know about with the government. They have cops, they have 2889 02:30:45.440 --> 02:30:49.000 people going out and interviewing, they have videos, they have chemists, 2890 02:30:49.040 --> 02:30:51.959 they have detectives, they have local cops. They want a 2891 02:30:52.000 --> 02:30:54.079 cup of coffee, they can send five cops down the 2892 02:30:54.079 --> 02:30:57.799 street to get one. I'm it except for my son Patrick, 2893 02:30:57.840 --> 02:31:00.399 who helps me out getting coffee, all right. And the 2894 02:31:00.440 --> 02:31:03.680 reason I sound frustrated is that they are objecting two 2895 02:31:03.719 --> 02:31:07.120 weeks ago because they need time to reviewed, to cross 2896 02:31:07.239 --> 02:31:12.399 examined doctors on very basic items of evidence. That are 2897 02:31:12.440 --> 02:31:17.120 there items of evidence. Now one of those witnesses is 2898 02:31:17.239 --> 02:31:21.600 adding or bringing anything new to the discovery, if you will, 2899 02:31:22.280 --> 02:31:25.200 and not by way of excuse. But you know, I 2900 02:31:25.239 --> 02:31:28.959 am a sole practitioner in the past major rooms of 2901 02:31:28.959 --> 02:31:31.159 a lot. In the past three months, I've had a murder, 2902 02:31:31.319 --> 02:31:33.920 a rape, and two back to back federal trials that 2903 02:31:34.079 --> 02:31:36.920 ended one week before we im paneled on this case. 2904 02:31:38.239 --> 02:31:42.040 I have worked really hard to pull this case together 2905 02:31:42.120 --> 02:31:47.200 with expert witnesses, civilian witnesses, private investigators been investigating. I 2906 02:31:47.280 --> 02:31:49.680 provide everything to them as soon as I get it, 2907 02:31:50.920 --> 02:31:54.079 and they have been doing the same with me. I 2908 02:31:54.200 --> 02:31:57.479 haven't objected to one thing that they have offered. 2909 02:31:57.719 --> 02:31:59.799 They put an AutoCAD. 2910 02:31:59.280 --> 02:32:04.079 Communtic comuter animated display disc on my desk last week. 2911 02:32:04.120 --> 02:32:06.079 I didn't complain about it. Run to you and try 2912 02:32:06.120 --> 02:32:08.120 to exclude it. I said, fine, no problem, put in 2913 02:32:08.120 --> 02:32:09.959 my pile and move on. 2914 02:32:10.079 --> 02:32:10.520 That's it. 2915 02:32:10.959 --> 02:32:14.760 So to suggest that they need time to be able 2916 02:32:14.799 --> 02:32:18.000 to cross examine both, I've had trials with both of 2917 02:32:18.040 --> 02:32:24.399 these prosecutors. They're both experienced, They're very, very familiar with 2918 02:32:24.440 --> 02:32:26.760 the trial of major criminal cases. 2919 02:32:27.639 --> 02:32:28.440 I feel that. 2920 02:32:28.840 --> 02:32:32.159 They're more than capable of being able to cross examine. 2921 02:32:32.200 --> 02:32:33.479 For example, number. 2922 02:32:33.200 --> 02:32:40.079 One, doctor Volkovich, who is a Board certified emergency medicine physician. 2923 02:32:41.280 --> 02:32:44.120 His report indicates that he has taken a look at 2924 02:32:44.159 --> 02:32:46.799 south Shore Hospital. He's taken a look at the bringing 2925 02:32:46.879 --> 02:32:50.040 a woman's hospital. He's taken a look at the photographs. 2926 02:32:50.360 --> 02:32:54.159 That's their evidence. That's all he looked at. And all 2927 02:32:54.200 --> 02:32:57.719 he's doing is basically what all of their south Shore 2928 02:32:57.799 --> 02:33:01.239 doctors came in and testified to as to the nature 2929 02:33:01.239 --> 02:33:04.440 of the injuries. In his opinion, the type of injury 2930 02:33:04.520 --> 02:33:07.120 that she suffered, talking about the injuries to the right 2931 02:33:07.159 --> 02:33:10.239 and left wrist as well as the neck, and in 2932 02:33:10.319 --> 02:33:14.799 his opinion dealing with suicide attempts that it's a legitimate 2933 02:33:15.120 --> 02:33:19.040 suicide attempt. There's no secrets, there's nothing new that they 2934 02:33:19.079 --> 02:33:20.600 have to prepare to cross. 2935 02:33:20.319 --> 02:33:21.040 Examine him on. 2936 02:33:21.760 --> 02:33:25.000 Doctor Lapisada is a doctor that is well known to 2937 02:33:25.239 --> 02:33:28.280 most of us, and I've been using doctor Lappisada as 2938 02:33:28.319 --> 02:33:32.200 fine services for the past decade or longer. I know 2939 02:33:32.319 --> 02:33:34.840 that both of these attorneys are familiar with her. She's 2940 02:33:34.920 --> 02:33:39.159 not bringing anything new to the table. She's bringing her 2941 02:33:39.239 --> 02:33:44.639 opinion based upon their evidence as to the medical records, 2942 02:33:45.000 --> 02:33:48.479 X rays, all of the rest of the the indisha 2943 02:33:48.760 --> 02:33:51.559 of the injury that she suffered. Now they're talking about 2944 02:33:52.079 --> 02:33:54.920 Lindsay going out hanging off of a window and then 2945 02:33:54.920 --> 02:33:57.440 doing like I said, the spider man, slide down the 2946 02:33:57.559 --> 02:34:02.399 side of the house. Apparently absolutely ridiculous. She dove out 2947 02:34:02.440 --> 02:34:05.200 that window, she hit her head, and she suffered with 2948 02:34:05.399 --> 02:34:09.879 Doctor Lapisida refers to as a Jefferson fracture of the spine. 2949 02:34:10.440 --> 02:34:14.159 That is very, very very typical for this type of 2950 02:34:14.159 --> 02:34:17.200 an injury. When somebody dives into the shallow end of 2951 02:34:17.239 --> 02:34:21.239 a pool, they get that injury. Unfortunately, when somebody, you know, 2952 02:34:21.319 --> 02:34:23.120 kids are on a boat and they're drunk and they 2953 02:34:23.479 --> 02:34:25.799 one of them jumps off a mast into the shallow 2954 02:34:25.879 --> 02:34:27.760 end of the water off of Cape Cod, they get 2955 02:34:27.760 --> 02:34:28.719 that type of injury. 2956 02:34:29.200 --> 02:34:30.120 Superman, when you. 2957 02:34:30.079 --> 02:34:32.959 Get thrown off the horse six feet high, same injury. 2958 02:34:33.040 --> 02:34:33.559 That's all. 2959 02:34:33.840 --> 02:34:37.760 She's not bringing any esoteric theory to this case that 2960 02:34:37.840 --> 02:34:41.159 they need time to prepare interestingly enough to bring them 2961 02:34:41.200 --> 02:34:44.040 a woman's hospital records do make reference to the Jefferson 2962 02:34:44.079 --> 02:34:47.959 fracture right from jumping. She also assists me, as she 2963 02:34:48.040 --> 02:34:53.680 always does on autopsy photographs, any indsure of injuries, and 2964 02:34:53.719 --> 02:34:56.159 it's her opinion that if they try to say that 2965 02:34:56.159 --> 02:34:59.079 there are bruises to these little babies that were inflicted 2966 02:34:59.079 --> 02:35:02.239 by her there absolutely wrong, and doctor Left decided it 2967 02:35:02.280 --> 02:35:06.280 would indicate that these are consistent with the EMT. God 2968 02:35:06.280 --> 02:35:09.120 bless those first responders, but they were in a panic, 2969 02:35:09.159 --> 02:35:10.840 and they're trying to take care of these kids and 2970 02:35:11.120 --> 02:35:13.200 pick them up and run them up to the to 2971 02:35:13.239 --> 02:35:14.120 their trucks. 2972 02:35:13.840 --> 02:35:16.120 And vehicles, so and other. 2973 02:35:16.680 --> 02:35:22.600 Obviously, the interosis, injection into the legs, the shins, the thighs, 2974 02:35:22.680 --> 02:35:26.920 all of these bruises from medical intervention. Not Lindsey Clancy, 2975 02:35:27.360 --> 02:35:31.000 that's what she would testify to. That's it. They don't 2976 02:35:31.040 --> 02:35:34.479 need time to prepare to cross examined for that. Finally, 2977 02:35:35.360 --> 02:35:39.600 I have doctor Kandy. Doctor Kandy signed even better than 2978 02:35:39.639 --> 02:35:43.600 a report. He signed an affidavit and again it's based 2979 02:35:43.680 --> 02:35:48.600 upon medical records that we all have. Way back when 2980 02:35:48.600 --> 02:35:51.920 this case first started, the government presented the case to 2981 02:35:51.959 --> 02:35:54.799 the grand jury. First thing I said to Lindsay, would 2982 02:35:54.799 --> 02:35:57.760 sign a release. Let the government give all the medical records. 2983 02:35:57.920 --> 02:36:01.399 We'll all have access to them. Cases obviously going to 2984 02:36:01.399 --> 02:36:04.719 be predicated upon the medical records, psychiatric records. We signed 2985 02:36:04.719 --> 02:36:08.159 every release. They got every document and had them into 2986 02:36:08.200 --> 02:36:11.319 the grand jury. I get copies, they have copies. Kandy 2987 02:36:11.840 --> 02:36:17.159 would testify to the horrific, in his opinion, failure to 2988 02:36:17.319 --> 02:36:23.360 comply with the standard of care that would govern psychiatrists, psychologists, 2989 02:36:23.760 --> 02:36:28.159 doctor Tuffs, who's going to be testifying tomorrow, nurse practitioner Jalata, 2990 02:36:28.719 --> 02:36:33.360 the other individual from the McLean Hospital, all records that 2991 02:36:33.520 --> 02:36:39.600 they've had for years, so they don't need time to 2992 02:36:39.639 --> 02:36:45.479 prepare for cross examination. So weeks ago, Council, after I 2993 02:36:45.600 --> 02:36:48.840 gave them copies of all of these reports and affid 2994 02:36:49.600 --> 02:36:51.559 strike that I'm sorry the reports I just got, and 2995 02:36:51.639 --> 02:36:54.000 I just sent them the affidavit from Kandy, they already have. 2996 02:36:55.120 --> 02:36:59.319 I disclosed to them what my opinion would be of 2997 02:36:59.360 --> 02:37:03.600 the opinions from these doctors that would be testifying, and 2998 02:37:03.680 --> 02:37:09.440 the report carries that out. I suggest to the court 2999 02:37:09.639 --> 02:37:17.680 that to strip Lindsay's ability to present evidence in support 3000 02:37:17.719 --> 02:37:18.520 of her defense. 3001 02:37:19.840 --> 02:37:23.000 Number one, it would not be in the interest of justice. 3002 02:37:23.000 --> 02:37:25.280 How I'd like to hear a DA stand. 3003 02:37:25.040 --> 02:37:27.000 Up and say, in the interest of justice in this 3004 02:37:27.120 --> 02:37:31.520 case because weeks ago we got this information and we're 3005 02:37:31.559 --> 02:37:36.479 not prepared to testify to cross examine the testifying witnesses. 3006 02:37:37.639 --> 02:37:39.840 I think you're even your honor would agree, is a 3007 02:37:39.879 --> 02:37:44.079 disingenuous agument. She came in and said to you, Rule 3008 02:37:44.120 --> 02:37:47.760 fourteen matters, and it applies to the government just as 3009 02:37:47.840 --> 02:37:51.280 it applies to the defense, and therefore you should exclude 3010 02:37:51.319 --> 02:37:55.920 these witnesses. Well, if I messed up and it's my 3011 02:37:56.120 --> 02:37:59.440 trial schedule that caused me to not be able to 3012 02:37:59.600 --> 02:38:03.079 have written reports of the stuff that they've had for 3013 02:38:03.239 --> 02:38:07.360 years to prepare to cross examine these witnesses, then it's 3014 02:38:07.840 --> 02:38:11.760 my fault, and it deprives her of effective assistance of counsel, 3015 02:38:12.360 --> 02:38:15.280 because that would then deprive her of her defense. This 3016 02:38:15.399 --> 02:38:19.319 is a pathologist, an emergency room doctor, and a doctor 3017 02:38:19.319 --> 02:38:21.799 who would testify to the standards that would apply to 3018 02:38:21.840 --> 02:38:23.399 these doctors that they're going to call. 3019 02:38:23.319 --> 02:38:24.280 As their witnesses. 3020 02:38:24.879 --> 02:38:27.680 Which is another interesting philip if you will, where they're 3021 02:38:27.719 --> 02:38:33.760 calling Tufts, Jelata, the other individuals from McLean, all treating 3022 02:38:33.799 --> 02:38:36.799 physicians of her that are all lined up to come 3023 02:38:36.840 --> 02:38:39.639 in and testify against her on this case. Find bring it, 3024 02:38:40.159 --> 02:38:43.399 but at least give me the ammunition to counter it. 3025 02:38:44.520 --> 02:38:45.280 Let me ask you this. 3026 02:38:46.040 --> 02:38:51.079 They kind of go backwards in regards to doctor Kandy. 3027 02:38:52.959 --> 02:38:58.959 The Affidavid really speaks more towards the standard of care. 3028 02:38:59.040 --> 02:39:03.040 That's right not giving an opinion of chrominal responsibility. 3029 02:39:02.399 --> 02:39:07.760 Right, But I'm struggling to see how that comes. 3030 02:39:07.920 --> 02:39:08.079 Now. 3031 02:39:08.079 --> 02:39:12.120 Maybe, well, he's here's the that I'm using for pxicology. 3032 02:39:12.319 --> 02:39:14.719 That's what I feel. But the reason I'm asking that is. 3033 02:39:17.799 --> 02:39:19.120 I'm not sure. 3034 02:39:20.399 --> 02:39:26.159 In this case is the standard of care necessarily as 3035 02:39:26.280 --> 02:39:29.719 relevant as to in regards as opposed to causation. 3036 02:39:30.600 --> 02:39:32.239 Do you know what I mean that you think that 3037 02:39:32.319 --> 02:39:35.879 standard of care does speak to causation, doesn't have to 3038 02:39:36.000 --> 02:39:37.879 use it as standard of care. He can use it 3039 02:39:37.920 --> 02:39:40.159 as his opinion as to the first doctor that he 3040 02:39:40.239 --> 02:39:44.159 spoke to. She spoke to doctor Tufts when she presents 3041 02:39:44.200 --> 02:39:47.639 with a bipolar one presentation and then Toughs prescribes an 3042 02:39:47.680 --> 02:39:50.360 SSRI to her, which flies in the face of any 3043 02:39:50.520 --> 02:39:53.920 rational psychiatrist and what they would prescribe and do. 3044 02:39:54.639 --> 02:39:55.840 He's more than qualified. 3045 02:39:56.399 --> 02:40:00.399 Fact, that's a different question, and that may be more 3046 02:40:00.440 --> 02:40:03.799 admissible than someone saying, oh, I've found what the standard 3047 02:40:03.840 --> 02:40:05.719 of care and I find. 3048 02:40:05.360 --> 02:40:06.520 That this violates it. 3049 02:40:06.760 --> 02:40:10.440 If we have got an expert who says, listen, I 3050 02:40:10.520 --> 02:40:11.920 am qualified. 3051 02:40:12.079 --> 02:40:16.239 I looked at these records. I disagree with that. 3052 02:40:17.600 --> 02:40:22.719 Treatment, I'd be more inclined to allow that than to 3053 02:40:22.760 --> 02:40:26.159 get into the standard of care, which is obviously consistent 3054 02:40:26.479 --> 02:40:30.120 more with the civil world. 3055 02:40:30.239 --> 02:40:34.239 And address the actual treatment as to an opinion as 3056 02:40:34.239 --> 02:40:38.319 to its appropriateness. But again on the issue that they're 3057 02:40:38.399 --> 02:40:41.520 raising that they need time to prepare to cross examined, 3058 02:40:41.520 --> 02:40:46.079 I don't think that lies when even if he revises 3059 02:40:46.120 --> 02:40:48.680 his report by removing standard of care, well. 3060 02:40:48.639 --> 02:40:50.319 Let me ask you this, because I haven't had enough 3061 02:40:50.360 --> 02:40:51.479 to This is probably what I'm going to have to 3062 02:40:51.479 --> 02:40:58.799 look at tonight. Is doctor Condy adding anything to the 3063 02:40:58.879 --> 02:41:01.040 expert disclosures that have already been making. 3064 02:41:01.120 --> 02:41:02.680 I know there's disclosures. 3065 02:41:02.479 --> 02:41:05.920 He's taking the medical records tops to a lot of 3066 02:41:06.559 --> 02:41:10.040 McLean hospital and just clementing on the care and the 3067 02:41:10.079 --> 02:41:13.239 treatment that was presented to her as a patient looking 3068 02:41:13.479 --> 02:41:14.719 looking for for help. 3069 02:41:14.799 --> 02:41:17.840 That that's all he's doing. He's not adding anything. 3070 02:41:17.920 --> 02:41:21.799 He's talking about the prescriptions that were provided provided to her, 3071 02:41:22.200 --> 02:41:29.840 the SSRIs, the antipsychotics, the benzo diazepines, all of that. 3072 02:41:29.840 --> 02:41:32.360 That's what his opinion is predicated upon, which is all 3073 02:41:32.399 --> 02:41:35.399 of the prescriptions that the government has already introduced into 3074 02:41:35.440 --> 02:41:37.200 evidence and is well. 3075 02:41:37.040 --> 02:41:38.840 Aware of, right and said, but I know that there 3076 02:41:39.000 --> 02:41:43.159 was the party's already exchanged reports. 3077 02:41:43.879 --> 02:41:46.440 Well, and you know months ago, and I know everybody 3078 02:41:46.440 --> 02:41:49.920 did that, and I haven't had a chance to review 3079 02:41:51.520 --> 02:41:56.440 specifically the defendant's reports, and I don't. Is there an 3080 02:41:56.520 --> 02:42:00.760 expert who is going to address these kind of issues already? 3081 02:42:01.600 --> 02:42:05.760 No, Doctor Condy was my toxicologist and my treating for 3082 02:42:05.959 --> 02:42:08.879 not treating, but a physician that would give an opinion 3083 02:42:08.920 --> 02:42:13.959 as to the appropriateness of the treatment that she received, 3084 02:42:14.239 --> 02:42:18.159 especially as it relates to the prescriptions. I mean, doctor 3085 02:42:18.319 --> 02:42:21.040 Lapisiter is a pathologist, she has nothing to do with it. 3086 02:42:21.079 --> 02:42:23.639 Doctor is Isazela is a psychologist, he has nothing to 3087 02:42:23.680 --> 02:42:27.879 do with it. Doctor Resnick is a psychiatrist specializing in 3088 02:42:27.959 --> 02:42:32.680 an infant infanticide. He's not addressing that issue. And Nora 3089 02:42:32.760 --> 02:42:38.239 is doctor Spinelli, who is a postpatum, postpadum depression, postpatum 3090 02:42:38.280 --> 02:42:43.799 psychosis expert. So doctor Condy is my expert for toxicology 3091 02:42:43.840 --> 02:42:47.840 and the care level of care that she received, which 3092 02:42:47.959 --> 02:42:51.520 gots the defensive if their argument that they need time 3093 02:42:51.559 --> 02:42:52.959 to cross examine or prepare. 3094 02:42:54.120 --> 02:42:55.319 He's also an exclusion. 3095 02:42:55.520 --> 02:42:59.200 Okay, come on, thanks you, honor. 3096 02:43:00.399 --> 02:43:04.360 With regard to doctor Condy, one of my points is 3097 02:43:04.399 --> 02:43:07.680 going to be that his Affidavid addresses the standard of care, 3098 02:43:07.680 --> 02:43:10.280 which is more of the civil issue, but you've already 3099 02:43:10.280 --> 02:43:13.719 addressed that with defense counsel's pivot that he would then 3100 02:43:13.920 --> 02:43:19.559 instead testify about the treatment of the defendant and toxicology. 3101 02:43:20.840 --> 02:43:26.200 Looking at the affidavit in which he outlines his qualifications, 3102 02:43:27.559 --> 02:43:32.159 he's not a toxicologist. He's a physician licensed here in Massachusetts. 3103 02:43:32.600 --> 02:43:37.079 He's done a residency in general psychiatry, child and adolescent psychiatry, 3104 02:43:37.079 --> 02:43:41.840 and forensic psychiolotry, but he's not a toxicologist. And also, 3105 02:43:41.879 --> 02:43:45.719 it's not just us having all the same records that 3106 02:43:45.840 --> 02:43:50.000 makes for cross examination to be fundamentally fair. There's more 3107 02:43:50.040 --> 02:43:53.840 to cross examination than just having the underlying data. It's 3108 02:43:53.840 --> 02:43:57.280 also knowing more about the expert, being able to look 3109 02:43:57.319 --> 02:44:00.879 into their publications and their prior testimony, being able to 3110 02:44:00.920 --> 02:44:04.479 prepare to rebut anything that they might testify to, and 3111 02:44:04.520 --> 02:44:07.760 where we have this late disclosure which was one week 3112 02:44:07.799 --> 02:44:12.000 prior to trial starting, that's fundamentally unfair to the Commonwealth. 3113 02:44:12.000 --> 02:44:14.680 And I think what doctor Condie would be testifying to 3114 02:44:14.760 --> 02:44:17.440 if it's just limited to her treatment and what was 3115 02:44:17.440 --> 02:44:20.319 prescribed to her that's covered by the other three experts 3116 02:44:20.360 --> 02:44:24.200 that defense already has. They all talk about her treatment, 3117 02:44:24.920 --> 02:44:27.559 the prescription she was on, and the effects those had 3118 02:44:27.559 --> 02:44:29.959 on her. So I think that would be redundant and 3119 02:44:30.000 --> 02:44:31.479 it would be unfair to the comal to add this 3120 02:44:31.600 --> 02:44:34.559 fourth expert to talk about the same things that the 3121 02:44:34.559 --> 02:44:36.840 other three experts are going to talk about, when we 3122 02:44:36.879 --> 02:44:40.079 haven't had a chance to prepare for this particular expert. 3123 02:44:41.280 --> 02:44:45.159 For doctor lac Pasada, what we have is a two 3124 02:44:45.159 --> 02:44:50.399 and a half page letter to Attorney Reddington outlining her thoughts, 3125 02:44:50.920 --> 02:44:53.600 but it doesn't say what her opinions are based on. 3126 02:44:53.680 --> 02:44:56.600 It doesn't say which materials she's reviewed and what she's 3127 02:44:56.639 --> 02:45:00.000 relying on. So I would suggest that it's an insufficient 3128 02:45:00.079 --> 02:45:03.520 and report. And again with the delayed disclosure. For example, 3129 02:45:03.559 --> 02:45:08.120 she she talks about Jefferson Jefferson fracture causing the injuries. Well, 3130 02:45:08.120 --> 02:45:10.799 if we had this information previously and knew this is 3131 02:45:10.799 --> 02:45:12.959 what they were going to argue, we could have obtained 3132 02:45:12.959 --> 02:45:15.559 our own expert to talk about the mechanism, mechanism of 3133 02:45:15.600 --> 02:45:18.639 injury and Jefferson Jefferson fractures and all of those things. 3134 02:45:18.639 --> 02:45:21.239 But we weren't told until a week before trial that 3135 02:45:21.319 --> 02:45:24.079 she would even potentially be a witness. And then we 3136 02:45:24.159 --> 02:45:27.440 get this report on July twenty six, that's a two 3137 02:45:27.479 --> 02:45:28.440 and a half page letter. 3138 02:45:28.760 --> 02:45:35.520 Didn't We have multiple trauma surgeons neurosurgeons who've testified who 3139 02:45:35.639 --> 02:45:36.319 treated her. 3140 02:45:37.319 --> 02:45:37.719 Couldn't. 3141 02:45:37.799 --> 02:45:41.680 Couldn't I want to just ask is that consistent with 3142 02:45:41.879 --> 02:45:45.719 and that's pretty much from looking at doctor Opposada's no. 3143 02:45:47.319 --> 02:45:47.959 I'm not sure I. 3144 02:45:47.959 --> 02:45:48.639 Would allow in. 3145 02:45:50.440 --> 02:45:53.680 Opinions regarding whether or not it's a serious suicide or not. 3146 02:45:54.120 --> 02:45:57.920 But she does indicate it's consistent. 3147 02:45:57.840 --> 02:46:01.879 With landing on somebody on individuals. 3148 02:46:01.239 --> 02:46:05.639 Had well, Jorda. We had a trauma surgeon from the 3149 02:46:05.680 --> 02:46:10.000 Selfshore Hospital testify who said that the injuries that Ms 3150 02:46:10.079 --> 02:46:12.680 Clancy sustained were at level one and she had to 3151 02:46:12.680 --> 02:46:16.319 be transported to another hospital where doctors who were trained 3152 02:46:16.360 --> 02:46:19.639 in those injuries could operate on her. So we didn't 3153 02:46:19.680 --> 02:46:24.360 think that she would have the knowledge and the training 3154 02:46:24.399 --> 02:46:27.680 and experience to testify about the nature of those injuries 3155 02:46:27.719 --> 02:46:31.920 and how they occur. The trauma surgeon from Brigaman and 3156 02:46:31.959 --> 02:46:35.159 Women's Hospital is with the military and is overseas in 3157 02:46:35.200 --> 02:46:38.159 the Middle East and so was unavailable. But had we 3158 02:46:38.239 --> 02:46:39.879 known that this was going to be an issue when 3159 02:46:39.920 --> 02:46:42.399 they were going to allege this particular type of fracture. 3160 02:46:42.719 --> 02:46:46.159 We would have endeavored to get another expert in replace 3161 02:46:46.200 --> 02:46:48.239 of the doctor who treated her at Brigham and Women's. 3162 02:46:48.799 --> 02:46:50.600 But we didn't know that this would even be an 3163 02:46:50.639 --> 02:46:54.840 issue until a week before trial. And again, this report, 3164 02:46:54.879 --> 02:46:56.959 this letter is date of July twenty sixth, and it 3165 02:46:56.959 --> 02:47:00.159 doesn't tell us which records, which reports, or which which 3166 02:47:01.399 --> 02:47:04.639 what medical journals are training or anything that these opinions 3167 02:47:04.680 --> 02:47:05.239 are based on. 3168 02:47:06.200 --> 02:47:13.360 Well, that could be done by voidier. I mean the Commonwealth. 3169 02:47:14.319 --> 02:47:20.399 The Commonwealth has at least inferred through their case that 3170 02:47:20.479 --> 02:47:27.200 this was not a serious suicide attempt, right, I mean, 3171 02:47:27.559 --> 02:47:30.719 and now these questions about you whether or not somebody's 3172 02:47:30.760 --> 02:47:37.399 hanging outside the window or not, and so why wasn't 3173 02:47:37.399 --> 02:47:39.079 this an issue that the call Wealth could have be 3174 02:47:39.079 --> 02:47:41.559 anticipated would come up. 3175 02:47:42.559 --> 02:47:44.719 The position of the common Wealth isn't that it wasn't 3176 02:47:44.719 --> 02:47:47.799 a serious suicide attempt. It's that the methods that were 3177 02:47:47.879 --> 02:47:52.120 chosen were insufficient to achieve the goal, and the reasons 3178 02:47:52.120 --> 02:47:55.280 for that we would argue in our closing. I don't 3179 02:47:55.280 --> 02:47:57.399 think we have to disclose that theory at this point. 3180 02:47:57.680 --> 02:48:00.000 But we've never said it wasn't a serious suicide attem. 3181 02:48:00.159 --> 02:48:02.520 We've never said it was a fake suicide attempt. What 3182 02:48:02.600 --> 02:48:06.280 we've endeavored to develop from the testimony is that the 3183 02:48:06.319 --> 02:48:10.719 methods that were chosen were methods that would be unsuccessful. 3184 02:48:11.000 --> 02:48:14.639 But we're not saying it wasn't a serious attempt. And 3185 02:48:14.680 --> 02:48:16.840 I think the reasons for that will become clearer when 3186 02:48:16.840 --> 02:48:21.440 the doctors give their testimony. But it's our position that 3187 02:48:21.520 --> 02:48:24.479 she was attempting to kill herself that night, and there 3188 02:48:24.559 --> 02:48:27.879 are various reasons and factors where she was unsuccessful in 3189 02:48:27.959 --> 02:48:30.479 killing herself but successful in killing her children. 3190 02:48:32.639 --> 02:48:37.000 But there's been all kinds of testimony regarding it. 3191 02:48:37.040 --> 02:48:40.600 Seems to be a dispute of whether or not she's 3192 02:48:40.680 --> 02:48:47.000 hanging from the windowsill or goes out head first. There's 3193 02:48:47.000 --> 02:48:49.799 some testimony that's been raised with the blood experts, the 3194 02:48:49.840 --> 02:48:54.600 things that she've even hanging from the windowsill, Doctor la Posado, 3195 02:48:55.600 --> 02:49:00.719 it seems what they're seeking, he is, is those injuries 3196 02:49:00.799 --> 02:49:05.520 are consistent with somebody who lands on their head. 3197 02:49:06.639 --> 02:49:08.799 So with the with the court allow us to call 3198 02:49:08.840 --> 02:49:11.440 a witness who's not on our witness list to rebut 3199 02:49:11.440 --> 02:49:12.000 that evidence. 3200 02:49:12.600 --> 02:49:17.239 Yeah, I would consider that sure, Yeah, And this is 3201 02:49:17.319 --> 02:49:21.760 kind of what you know, why I didn't make a 3202 02:49:21.799 --> 02:49:24.600 decision on this earlier. They have to kind of see 3203 02:49:24.639 --> 02:49:29.159 how the case develops. And this issue of how this 3204 02:49:29.239 --> 02:49:35.120 injury occurs is certainly it's either been specifically and explicitly 3205 02:49:35.680 --> 02:49:41.719 raised or inferred in multiple questions, you know, even to 3206 02:49:41.799 --> 02:49:44.000 the length of to the part of you know, the 3207 02:49:44.000 --> 02:49:45.680 the the cots and things like that. 3208 02:49:45.719 --> 02:49:46.959 It's been over and over and over. 3209 02:49:47.719 --> 02:49:49.879 So if the karmonwealth. 3210 02:49:51.959 --> 02:49:56.479 Seeks to get somebody to robut that, I would strongly 3211 02:49:56.520 --> 02:50:01.680 consider that. And in regards to doctor Lapisada's opinion, we 3212 02:50:01.760 --> 02:50:06.840 may need a wider in regards to but I wouldn't 3213 02:50:06.840 --> 02:50:08.600 imagine the would take that long. 3214 02:50:08.680 --> 02:50:09.719 It would be you know, did. 3215 02:50:09.600 --> 02:50:11.680 You view the x rays? 3216 02:50:11.760 --> 02:50:15.600 I mean that kind of an injury is probably pretty clear. 3217 02:50:15.360 --> 02:50:17.120 On the x rays or the MRIs. 3218 02:50:18.600 --> 02:50:21.120 If we could get a list from defense counsel on 3219 02:50:21.159 --> 02:50:23.360 what she's basing her opinion on, so we can have 3220 02:50:23.479 --> 02:50:25.959 our witness to review the same material MISP. 3221 02:50:26.239 --> 02:50:28.280 Right now, it's just simple, it's just a self shoe 3222 02:50:28.399 --> 02:50:31.120 hospital medical records. Bring them a women's medical records that 3223 02:50:31.159 --> 02:50:32.600 have already discussed. 3224 02:50:32.239 --> 02:50:37.319 What opinion, and I would allow then the Commonwealth to 3225 02:50:38.079 --> 02:50:42.280 present a rebuttal witness if if they seek to. 3226 02:50:43.040 --> 02:50:48.399 And just note our objection. Sure, but also the third expert. 3227 02:50:48.840 --> 02:50:51.280 What we have here is a letter dated August fourth, 3228 02:50:51.319 --> 02:50:53.680 that's a page and a half that's not even signed 3229 02:50:55.639 --> 02:51:00.200 by I believe it's structor Bulkovich. H. 3230 02:51:01.120 --> 02:51:02.680 I'm more concerned with that. 3231 02:51:05.200 --> 02:51:08.760 Is whether or not the opinion is is admissible. The 3232 02:51:08.799 --> 02:51:11.959 opinion as I see it is he's reviewed the medical 3233 02:51:12.000 --> 02:51:15.680 records and it's his opinion this was commonly. These are 3234 02:51:15.719 --> 02:51:21.159 injuries that commonly observed in the quote of serious suicide attempts. 3235 02:51:21.159 --> 02:51:24.959 Serious Yeah, I mean or even suicide attempts. 3236 02:51:25.600 --> 02:51:29.799 That that's an opinion. 3237 02:51:30.879 --> 02:51:33.600 Waxed eloquently about suicide and whether. 3238 02:51:35.479 --> 02:51:42.000 But but but I'm just concerned that that how how 3239 02:51:42.040 --> 02:51:44.159 are we going to kind of parse out what he 3240 02:51:44.239 --> 02:51:46.680 looked at a hundred other cases and then we go 3241 02:51:46.719 --> 02:51:48.040 through into all of those. 3242 02:51:49.440 --> 02:51:51.239 So I'm again I have to take a look. 3243 02:51:51.280 --> 02:51:53.159 That's why I'm going to take under advisement for sure. 3244 02:51:54.840 --> 02:51:58.520 That doesn't mean he may have other opinions that we 3245 02:51:58.719 --> 02:51:59.200 have to look at. 3246 02:51:59.239 --> 02:52:01.120 I think he talked about. 3247 02:52:03.079 --> 02:52:06.520 Some of his observations as an emergency room doctor. 3248 02:52:06.520 --> 02:52:09.600 Anything didn't he Yeah, I'm. 3249 02:52:13.040 --> 02:52:18.760 More reluctant to allow in band individuals opinion that this 3250 02:52:18.879 --> 02:52:20.079 was a suicide attempt. 3251 02:52:20.440 --> 02:52:24.319 So they're yes, how sure doctors are able to talk 3252 02:52:24.319 --> 02:52:27.760 about you know, superficial superficial, as we've heard for a 3253 02:52:27.760 --> 02:52:32.600 week now, But his opinion that it's it's consistent with 3254 02:52:32.639 --> 02:52:37.159 what he's observed in his regency room treatment is not admissible. 3255 02:52:37.520 --> 02:52:38.479 No, that's not what I'm saying. 3256 02:52:38.799 --> 02:52:41.319 So what I'm saying is that he can't necessarily give 3257 02:52:41.360 --> 02:52:41.879 the opinion. 3258 02:52:42.040 --> 02:52:43.719 I've looked at this. It's my opinion this. 3259 02:52:43.680 --> 02:52:46.920 Was a suicide attempt, but he could certainly testify. I've 3260 02:52:46.959 --> 02:52:49.319 looked at the cuts these are. 3261 02:52:49.479 --> 02:52:50.280 You know, the. 3262 02:52:50.200 --> 02:52:54.079 Phrase superficial, I think that's been kind of mixed up 3263 02:52:54.079 --> 02:52:55.719 in this whole thing too. That seems to be more 3264 02:52:55.719 --> 02:52:59.360 of a medical term as opposed to well. 3265 02:52:59.840 --> 02:53:02.399 They basically beat it to desk with not being a 3266 02:53:02.440 --> 02:53:04.719 medical term until we were able to show that, in fact, 3267 02:53:04.760 --> 02:53:07.319 it was deep three point five and two. 3268 02:53:08.319 --> 02:53:12.079 Okay, Yeah, I mean, if you want to call this doctor, 3269 02:53:12.120 --> 02:53:14.399 he's gonna say that's a significant cut. 3270 02:53:14.760 --> 02:53:15.120 Okay. 3271 02:53:16.200 --> 02:53:18.120 That's that's different than. 3272 02:53:17.959 --> 02:53:21.159 Saying, looking at that, I find that this is a 3273 02:53:21.200 --> 02:53:25.159 suicide attempt, Just like I there's never been an opinion 3274 02:53:25.200 --> 02:53:27.360 here that this was not a suicide attempt. 3275 02:53:28.680 --> 02:53:30.079 That's probably something that. 3276 02:53:30.280 --> 02:53:32.319 The jury is now, but it wasn't a week ago. 3277 02:53:32.440 --> 02:53:35.280 Well that's that's good probably for the jury to determine. 3278 02:53:35.760 --> 02:53:41.440 But I would allow kind of going into the characteristics 3279 02:53:41.479 --> 02:53:45.399 have already been testified to the so and I don't 3280 02:53:45.799 --> 02:53:49.639 we need a further what dear on that doctor as well, 3281 02:53:50.040 --> 02:53:51.319 but I think he listened. 3282 02:53:51.000 --> 02:53:52.280 There kind of what he reviewed. 3283 02:53:52.319 --> 02:53:58.920 But yeah, anything else in regards to those three witnesses, 3284 02:54:00.399 --> 02:54:04.360 all right, So I'm gonna take this under advisement, but 3285 02:54:04.559 --> 02:54:06.000 just kind of for. 3286 02:54:07.239 --> 02:54:08.239 What I'm inclined to do. 3287 02:54:08.280 --> 02:54:12.120 Is, we've got to take a look at doctor Kandi's 3288 02:54:12.159 --> 02:54:14.959 report and compare it to some of the other reports. 3289 02:54:15.319 --> 02:54:16.000 I'm inclined to. 3290 02:54:16.040 --> 02:54:20.159 Let doctor Lapisada testify to the consistent the that the injuries 3291 02:54:20.159 --> 02:54:27.040 are consistent with basically a fall on the head. And Yah, 3292 02:54:28.440 --> 02:54:30.200 the last doctor, we've got to take a look at 3293 02:54:31.360 --> 02:54:33.879 kind of his language, but I would not be allowing 3294 02:54:34.000 --> 02:54:35.760 in that his opinion. 3295 02:54:35.399 --> 02:54:36.879 That this is a suicide attempt. 3296 02:54:36.920 --> 02:54:40.440 But he may testify as to all the other observations 3297 02:54:40.440 --> 02:54:43.760 that he took from those records. 3298 02:54:43.520 --> 02:54:46.120 Understood, just objection for. 3299 02:54:47.399 --> 02:54:50.319 All right, and so know Calmwell's objection. 3300 02:54:50.719 --> 02:54:56.000 I'll note the defendants objection, uh and so, and like 3301 02:54:56.040 --> 02:54:58.280 I said, I'm gonna I'll take an undervisement and everybody 3302 02:54:58.280 --> 02:55:00.520 can uh renew those. 3303 02:55:00.360 --> 02:55:06.239 Objections standard as to standard of care and just reference 3304 02:55:06.319 --> 02:55:08.760 the actual treatment and descriptions that you will. 3305 02:55:08.840 --> 02:55:11.399 All right, all right, So I'll take a look at this. 3306 02:55:12.040 --> 02:55:15.840 I'll have this tomorrow morning for everybody, all right. 3307 02:55:16.440 --> 02:55:22.280 So anything else we need to address, just in case 3308 02:55:22.319 --> 02:55:27.399 there is a problem. Doctor Lapisada has been working with 3309 02:55:29.000 --> 02:55:33.280 a gentleman by the name of mister Drake, that Drake Laboratories, 3310 02:55:33.319 --> 02:55:38.079 that is putting together an auto computer animated display of 3311 02:55:38.559 --> 02:55:41.280 coming out the window the injuries to the next showing 3312 02:55:41.280 --> 02:55:43.200 the vertebrae and that type of thing, which is all 3313 02:55:43.239 --> 02:55:47.600 based upon evidence that's already in evidence here. So I 3314 02:55:47.680 --> 02:55:50.280 just want I haven't got it yet, it's not done yet, 3315 02:55:50.639 --> 02:55:53.680 So I don't want not say anything about it now 3316 02:55:53.719 --> 02:55:55.680 because they'll be objecting to it tomorrow. 3317 02:55:55.719 --> 02:55:56.159 I'm sure. 3318 02:55:56.680 --> 02:55:59.719 I assume, I assume we'll have to take a look 3319 02:55:59.719 --> 02:55:59.920 at that. 3320 02:56:01.799 --> 02:56:04.120 He would have an objection to it is you don't 3321 02:56:04.120 --> 02:56:05.079 know you haven't seen it. 3322 02:56:05.399 --> 02:56:08.479 So it goes back to the whole position that you know, 3323 02:56:08.799 --> 02:56:11.120 we have the right to if we want to obtain 3324 02:56:11.159 --> 02:56:14.840 another expert, and then expert could review that material and 3325 02:56:15.719 --> 02:56:18.440 you know, use it to form his opinion. This is 3326 02:56:18.479 --> 02:56:22.440 different than the three D diagram of the house that 3327 02:56:22.639 --> 02:56:25.479 the camal be the defense was on notice that that 3328 02:56:25.559 --> 02:56:28.040 was becoming the basis of the measurements of what the 3329 02:56:28.040 --> 02:56:30.520 house looked like itself, and so that was turned over. 3330 02:56:30.799 --> 02:56:31.920 This is completely different. 3331 02:56:32.200 --> 02:56:35.159 And I just note that, as I said, the medical 3332 02:56:35.200 --> 02:56:40.079 records that the government has talks about Jefferson fracture. You 3333 02:56:40.159 --> 02:56:42.360 might remember two weeks ago or two and a half 3334 02:56:42.440 --> 02:56:45.760 weeks ago, when they first raised their objection, I told 3335 02:56:45.840 --> 02:56:48.879 you that I can't know what they're going to argue 3336 02:56:49.000 --> 02:56:52.280 until they argue it. So I didn't know whether or 3337 02:56:52.319 --> 02:56:53.840 not they were going to say that it's a fake 3338 02:56:53.920 --> 02:56:56.680 suicide or that she didn't jump out the window. I 3339 02:56:56.719 --> 02:56:59.280 had to wait to see what they're opening. Was now, 3340 02:56:59.360 --> 02:57:00.559 I know I have to rebutter. 3341 02:57:00.680 --> 02:57:02.479 We were almost out of here till you mentioned that 3342 02:57:03.079 --> 02:57:05.959 b D thing, So why why don't we do this? 3343 02:57:06.040 --> 02:57:09.360 We'll wait on that, all right. I'm not committing one 3344 02:57:09.399 --> 02:57:12.360 way or the other in regards to that. We'll see, 3345 02:57:12.639 --> 02:57:16.280 you know, so you maybe the testimony with the three D, 3346 02:57:16.680 --> 02:57:19.680 the testimony without the three D. We'll just kind of 3347 02:57:19.680 --> 02:57:22.239 see here and see where we go, all right, all right, 3348 02:57:22.559 --> 02:57:27.079 So thanks everybody for kind of buckling down. 3349 02:57:26.920 --> 02:57:29.520 And going through that so we can resolve that as 3350 02:57:29.559 --> 02:57:30.879 best we can. I appreciate that. 3351 02:57:31.200 --> 02:57:34.120 So we'll be in recess on this matter till uh 3352 02:57:34.879 --> 02:57:39.399 until tomorrow after tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Thank you, 3353 02:57:40.280 --> 02:57:41.559 all right,