Speaker 1: Full trial audio everything hurting court no silences to skip, yes,
Speaker 1: please run.
Speaker 2: A lot of.
Speaker 3: People in the court today we have Carmelwealth versus Lindsay Clancy.
Speaker 4: Miss Clancy is present.
Speaker 3: She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington, and the Commonwealth
Speaker 3: is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennathan Sprague and Assistant
Speaker 3: District Attorneyship In Buckingham.
Speaker 5: All right, good morning, council A right, good morning, Miss Clancy.
Speaker 2: All right, before we uh bring the jury in, let
Speaker 2: me talk to everybody just a little bit about uh,
Speaker 2: this morning's proceedings.
Speaker 5: Counsel m.
Speaker 4: Yes, please the court Today.
Speaker 3: We have the continuation of the jury trial and the
Speaker 3: matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms Clancy is president.
Speaker 3: She is represented by Attorney Kevin Runnington. The Commonwealth is
Speaker 3: represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Spragg and Assistant District
Speaker 3: Attorney Shannon Buckingham.
Speaker 2: Well, good morning, everybody. Nice to see everybody again. Thank
Speaker 2: you for being here. What I'm going to do is
Speaker 2: ask me those questions again and then talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about today's schedule, and then we'll get right back
Speaker 2: into the Commonwealth's presentation of the evidence. And so the
Speaker 2: first question, as you probably know by now, is any
Speaker 2: member of the jury red scene heard or overheard anything
Speaker 2: from any source, but any aspect of this case that
Speaker 2: would affect.
Speaker 6: Your ability to be feared and partial as a journy.
Speaker 2: Last question, is there any other serious matter or concern
Speaker 2: bearing on your service as adjur in this case that
Speaker 2: anybody needs to bring to my attention to this line.
Speaker 5: Again, thank you for following those instructions.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 2: Today's schedule is we have a number of witnesses. We're
Speaker 2: gonna start as soon as I'm done talking, and then
Speaker 2: we'll get right back into the Carmos case. We'll go
Speaker 2: we'll take a break mid morning, uh, and then we'll
Speaker 2: continue untill one o'clock and then we'll I anticipate we'll
Speaker 2: go somewhere into the afternoon, but we'll just kind of
Speaker 2: have to see what the evidence is if any other
Speaker 2: issues come up that I have to deal with that
Speaker 2: doesn't concern you. Uh So with that, I'm gonna turn
Speaker 2: this over at this point to the Commonwealth.
Speaker 5: IM ready to call your next witness.
Speaker 8: Guess run and the.
Speaker 7: Come Wealth calls doctor Kimberly Springer.
Speaker 9: The samijection.
Speaker 6: Okay, th same.
Speaker 2: All right, Good morning, doctor, Good morning, all right, come off.
Speaker 2: Could I see Council Soviet for a second. Fruit they'll
Speaker 2: work better for everybody, okay, all right, all right, come.
Speaker 7: Off, thank you, honor, good morning. Can you please stay
Speaker 7: and spell your name for the record.
Speaker 10: Yes, it's Kimberly Springer k I M B E R
Speaker 10: L E Y S P.
Speaker 11: R I N G E R.
Speaker 10: Where do you work at the Office of the Chief
Speaker 10: Medical Examiner in Boston, Massachusetts?
Speaker 7: And are you a medical examiner?
Speaker 11: I am?
Speaker 7: How long have you done that?
Speaker 11: Twenty years?
Speaker 7: Can you describe for us your educational background?
Speaker 10: I yes, four years of college at Wellesley College in Wellesley, Massachusetts.
Speaker 10: Four years of medical school at the Chicago Medical School
Speaker 10: in North Chicago, Illinois. Four years of residency training in
Speaker 10: anatomic and clinical pathology which is hospital based pathology and
Speaker 10: at the Brigaman and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. And
Speaker 10: one year of fellowship training in forensic pathology at the
Speaker 10: Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, which is where I
Speaker 10: now work.
Speaker 7: And throughout that twenty years at the Medical Examiner's office.
Speaker 7: Have you conducted autopsies? I have approximately how many?
Speaker 11: Over two thousand?
Speaker 7: And have you testified in courts in the com Wealth
Speaker 7: about these autopsies I have, Can you explain to the
Speaker 7: duris what is an autopsy?
Speaker 12: Yes.
Speaker 11: An autopsy is a.
Speaker 10: Tool by which we examine the whole body in an
Speaker 10: effort to determine cause of death. And it's comprised of
Speaker 10: two parts. And external examination, where we look for identifying
Speaker 10: characteristics such as height and weight, evidence of medical therapy,
Speaker 10: and evidence of trauma and disease. We may take evidence
Speaker 10: as appropriate, and then we turn to the internal examination,
Speaker 10: making surgical like incisions and examining each of the internal organs,
Speaker 10: again looking for evidence of trauma and disease, and taking
Speaker 10: additional samples for other tests such as toxicology.
Speaker 7: Now I want to direct your attention to January twenty ninth,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty three. Did you you perform an autopsy on
Speaker 7: Callen Patrick Clancy.
Speaker 11: I did.
Speaker 7: And when you perform this autopsy, did you follow the
Speaker 7: procedure you just described or you did an external examination
Speaker 7: and then an internal examination? Yes? And can you tell
Speaker 7: us what your initial observations were of Callen when you
Speaker 7: started the external examination?
Speaker 10: Yes, so Callen had some therapeutic procedures in place or
Speaker 10: therapeutic equipment in place, including a thermometer and the left nostril,
Speaker 10: a laser gastric tube in the right, an endotracheal tube
Speaker 10: down the throat, a fully catheter draining urine, intravascular catheters
Speaker 10: in the right hand and right wrist UH and an intravascular.
Speaker 7: Catheter in the left foot.
Speaker 10: There was some diseased a residue, possibly from other therapeutic
Speaker 10: procedures as well on his chest. And there are additional
Speaker 10: needle marks that I saw on his body. In general,
Speaker 10: I may should I keep going?
Speaker 7: Well, what were your general observations?
Speaker 11: In general?
Speaker 10: He was We measured him at twenty six inches long
Speaker 10: and twenty four pounds. He had general edema, and that
Speaker 10: those are the general So.
Speaker 7: When you were talking about therapeutic things, are those things
Speaker 7: that were done by a medical provider at a hospital
Speaker 7: or some such setting.
Speaker 11: Correct?
Speaker 7: And what do you mean when you say he had
Speaker 7: general edema?
Speaker 11: It means that he had.
Speaker 10: General His whole body had more fluid than one would
Speaker 10: expect in a person or eight months of an eight
Speaker 10: month old who had not been in the hospital. It's
Speaker 10: very common for someone coming from the hospital to have
Speaker 10: had been given fluids such that they have excess fluid
Speaker 10: and swelling.
Speaker 7: Did you make observations of any injuries or trauma to callin? Yes,
Speaker 7: if we could have a photo nine nine six zero.
Speaker 2: Hold on, let me just remembers the dread it's might
Speaker 2: give you a kind of revisit that instruction they talked
Speaker 2: to you last week about.
Speaker 5: I remember we talked about before they played that tape.
Speaker 2: All right, I just want to remind you that sometimes
Speaker 2: evidence is presented for the trial that.
Speaker 5: Creates emotional reactions.
Speaker 2: But as jurors who have taken an oath the fall
Speaker 2: of the law, I'm instructing you as they did last week,
Speaker 2: they you must separate any emotional reaction on your part
Speaker 2: from the informational value and the way from the You
Speaker 2: must not be influenced in any way but the unpleasant
Speaker 2: nature of the photographs and testimony that you're going to
Speaker 2: hear this morning or throughout the whole trial as well.
Speaker 2: So you must find the facts in this case based
Speaker 2: only on the evidence.
Speaker 5: But you can't find.
Speaker 2: Those facts or base those facts on sympathy, anger, passion, prejudice,
Speaker 2: or pity against either side.
Speaker 6: So I appreciate that.
Speaker 5: I just kind of want to remind you of that,
Speaker 5: and with that.
Speaker 7: Came on, Thank you, honor. So photo nine ninety six
Speaker 7: zero is that on the screen dot?
Speaker 11: Not yet? Yes, okay, thank you.
Speaker 7: If you could just describe for us what we're seeing
Speaker 7: here in this photo.
Speaker 10: So, this is a photograph of Kellen at the time
Speaker 10: of autopsy, and heming a ruler underneath his neck where
Speaker 10: above which you can see abrasions, and you can also
Speaker 10: see some needle marks that I mentioned from therapeutic procedures
Speaker 10: on his arm.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry if you could use the tool pressing the
Speaker 7: top button there just to highlight the area talking about
Speaker 7: the abrasions.
Speaker 13: On the net.
Speaker 10: Right here on his right side of his neck and
Speaker 10: then in the middle of the neck and on the
Speaker 10: left side of the neck.
Speaker 7: And I could now have photograph six sixty three you
Speaker 7: could tell us what we're seeing here in this photograph.
Speaker 13: Doctor.
Speaker 10: This is another photograph showing a bit more closely again
Speaker 10: the abrasions of the neck. There's one on the front
Speaker 10: of the neck, the one the shorter one that's about
Speaker 10: half an inch long by one sixteenth inch. For those
Speaker 10: more familiar with the metric system, a centimeter is two
Speaker 10: point five centimeters.
Speaker 11: About an inch. A sixteenth of an inch is.
Speaker 10: About one point five millimeters, so this is half an
Speaker 10: inch by one sixteenth inch. And then on the right
Speaker 10: here this is about one and a half inches by.
Speaker 7: A sixteenth inch, and then showing.
Speaker 14: Two.
Speaker 11: May I go back to that for one?
Speaker 10: For one, I just want to point out between the
Speaker 10: ruler and the abrasions, you can see a paler line.
Speaker 10: That's a normal infant neckfold. That's not a injury, thank you.
Speaker 7: In nine nine five two, Please you could just point
Speaker 7: out for us here the injuries of significance to you.
Speaker 11: Here. Sorry, I I think I did that.
Speaker 7: We could go back to the prior total the top one.
Speaker 10: Yeah, okay, So these again are the abrasions on the
Speaker 10: left side of his neck, and there's the one on
Speaker 10: the front of his neck.
Speaker 11: In addition, on uh.
Speaker 10: The left side of his forehead is a three sixteenth
Speaker 10: inch by one sixteenth inch abrasion. And I think, uh
Speaker 10: you can also begin to see uh particial hemorrhages, which
Speaker 10: are dot like hemorrhages underneath the skin on the face.
Speaker 7: And what are particulal hemorrhages.
Speaker 10: Particular hemorrhages occur when uh, there is rupture of the
Speaker 10: small blood vessels underneath the skin surface.
Speaker 12: UH.
Speaker 10: And they are from an over pressure of the small
Speaker 10: blood vessels such as capillaries or venuals, and UH blood
Speaker 10: escapes out and makes a dot like hemorrhage.
Speaker 7: We could have photo nine nine five four if you
Speaker 7: could explain for us what we're seeing in this photograph.
Speaker 10: Place Uh in this photograph is uh Callen's uh right side,
Speaker 10: also showing the back of his neck, so that abrasion
Speaker 10: that could be seen in the first photo UH showing
Speaker 10: the front of his neck. That abrasion continues along about
Speaker 10: three inches in all toward the right posterior or back
Speaker 10: of the neck.
Speaker 7: And if we could have photo nine nine five five piece.
Speaker 7: Is this a close up photograph of what you just described.
Speaker 11: Yes, you can show it out right here.
Speaker 7: Thank you. Could we have photo six thirty six please,
Speaker 7: and UH, if you could describe for us what you
Speaker 7: see here in.
Speaker 15: This photo doc.
Speaker 10: UH the abrie Well, first, the abrasion is in poor focus,
Speaker 10: but it's in the picture on the left side of
Speaker 10: UH of the photograph.
Speaker 11: UH.
Speaker 10: And then the most in the f in the photograph,
Speaker 10: one can see those particular hemorrhages better along the cheek
Speaker 10: on the eyelid.
Speaker 13: All of those we can have.
Speaker 7: Photo six five four, Please can you describe what we're
Speaker 7: seeing in this photograph? Doctor Uh?
Speaker 10: Yes, it's an abrasion UH near the hairline on the
Speaker 10: right side of the forehead, and.
Speaker 7: That is appear that is about.
Speaker 11: Three eights by one inch one eighth inch.
Speaker 7: And then photo six five six, Please can you describe
Speaker 7: what we're seeing in this photo here?
Speaker 4: Doctor?
Speaker 16: Uh?
Speaker 10: This is a looks looking at the top of Callen's
Speaker 10: head and on the top right part of his head,
Speaker 10: UH toward the front is near the forehead is a
Speaker 10: UH one eighth by one sixteenth intro version.
Speaker 7: And then photos six five seven place, Hm, you can
Speaker 7: describe what we're seeing here, doctor, this is.
Speaker 10: A the abrasion on the left side of his forehead
Speaker 10: with a ruler at this time.
Speaker 17: Uh.
Speaker 10: In addition, the UH pettiki are also in pretty good
Speaker 10: focus on this.
Speaker 7: And then photograph nine nine one six. If you can
Speaker 7: describe for us what we're seeing in this photograph place Uh.
Speaker 10: So these are some of the UH. I forgot to
Speaker 10: mention at the very beginning. There's a intravascar catheter in
Speaker 10: the UH right groin. This is Callen before we took
Speaker 10: off his medical therapy.
Speaker 18: Uh.
Speaker 11: And it shows some of the needle marks.
Speaker 7: That he had.
Speaker 10: So on his this is right lower extremity. This is
Speaker 10: a look of an intra osseous catheter attempt with a
Speaker 10: central puncture mark and our round abrasion around it. And
Speaker 10: then here's the right growing line and the left foot line.
Speaker 7: And if we could have photograph nine nine to one seven,
Speaker 7: are we seeing the same thing here on the left leg,
Speaker 7: those same ile at.
Speaker 4: Tent marks exactly?
Speaker 19: Yes, thank you.
Speaker 7: Doctor. Are you able to to date the the wounds
Speaker 7: that I had, the abrasions and mark on the head,
Speaker 7: Are you able to say when those got there or
Speaker 7: how long they've been there?
Speaker 10: I can't precisely, but they have signs of healing in
Speaker 10: the form of scabbing.
Speaker 7: And would that indicate that they weren't fresh wounds that
Speaker 7: happened the day you saw him or the day prior.
Speaker 7: Correct in terms of the marks around Kalan's neck and
Speaker 7: the pateechii around his eyes and face, did that give
Speaker 7: you an indication here of the mechanism of death for Callen?
Speaker 13: Ah?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 10: And how so so it is consistent with a ligature
Speaker 10: of strangulation, given that the abrasions are linear around his
Speaker 10: neck and there are particular hemorrhages above.
Speaker 11: Those lines of abrasion.
Speaker 7: And how is it that when someone is straight the
Speaker 7: ligature that that causes pateechii in the face and eyes.
Speaker 10: So what happens is that the blood vessels that supply
Speaker 10: blood to the neck are compressed. And so there are
Speaker 10: regular veins which are a lower pressure system, and carrotid
Speaker 10: arteries which are a somewhat higher pressure system. And so
Speaker 10: the as the vessels are compressed, if there is a
Speaker 10: backup of blood in the head, there can be an
Speaker 10: increased pressure in those small blood vessels that I mentioned,
Speaker 10: and they can rupture, causing the pati qui.
Speaker 7: But basically, is it similar to a balloon filling up?
Speaker 7: But it's not air, it's it's blood and pressure in
Speaker 7: the face. Yes, And so when that pressure gets too great,
Speaker 7: is it that the capillaries are basically bursting and causing
Speaker 7: those little red marks?
Speaker 10: Yes, most texts save capillaries, some save venules, the small
Speaker 10: blood vessels.
Speaker 7: And how is it that this process, the strangulation by
Speaker 7: ligature causes death physically? How does that? How does it
Speaker 7: physically happen.
Speaker 10: So the blockage of blood, either both to end from
Speaker 10: the head or just from the head, will cause a
Speaker 10: lack of oxygen to arrive at the brain.
Speaker 11: Uh.
Speaker 10: And UH there can be an element of airway compression
Speaker 10: as well, such that the lungs can't oxygenate properly. And UH,
Speaker 10: so that lack of oxygen is what causes the brain
Speaker 10: to die and uh the organs to fail.
Speaker 7: And based on your examination of Callen, did you come
Speaker 7: to a determination, based on your training and experience, to
Speaker 7: a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to the cause
Speaker 7: of his death?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was that?
Speaker 10: Complications of mechanical asphyxia?
Speaker 7: And why is it complications of mechanical asphyxia instead of
Speaker 7: just the asphyxia.
Speaker 10: Itself, Because he was resuscitated and so his heart began
Speaker 10: to beat again, and from the twenty fourth to the
Speaker 10: twenty seventh there was a continuation of support of his
Speaker 10: organs to in the hospital. And so if he had
Speaker 10: he had a heart stopped heart at the scene, and
Speaker 10: in that case I would have just said mechanical asphyxia,
Speaker 10: But since there was a three day hospital stay, I
Speaker 10: said complications of mechanical asphyxia.
Speaker 7: So the word complications doesn't mean that something happened at
Speaker 7: the hospital to cause his death. It's just that the
Speaker 7: strangulation caused his death. But he didn't die for a
Speaker 7: few days.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 7: Kamal would move to submit the autopsy photos as the
Speaker 7: next exhibit.
Speaker 6: Same rejections. They may be admitted, that may be admitted.
Speaker 2: Have nothing further, council, All right, thank you me step down, doctor,
Speaker 2: thank you, I see just brief.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I should break it this time.
Speaker 20: Okay, all right, all right, this quote will be in recess.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of the record. We returned back to
Speaker 3: the matter of comwell for us as Lindsay Clancy. All
Speaker 3: potties up present, including the kind of excluding the jury.
Speaker 6: All right, cause were ready for the jury.
Speaker 7: Yes, your honor?
Speaker 13: All right?
Speaker 15: Or are there this of course? Now session please be
Speaker 15: see that arana.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of the record, we returned back up
Speaker 3: a trial commonwealth process.
Speaker 4: Lindsay Clancy, all including.
Speaker 7: The defendant and including the eighteen jurors.
Speaker 6: All right, thank you everyone.
Speaker 5: So we are now return to the Komo's case.
Speaker 6: Tree Sprague, thank you.
Speaker 7: On a como calls doctor Lindsay Roshert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just watch this stuff please, Hey, good morning, Dog,
Speaker 2: Good morning, Tree.
Speaker 7: Sprague, thank you, good morning. Can you please stay and
Speaker 7: spell your name for the record.
Speaker 21: Lindsay roschert l I N D S A y R
Speaker 21: O S s H I R T.
Speaker 7: And what do you do for a living?
Speaker 21: I'm a pediatrician.
Speaker 7: Where do you work?
Speaker 21: I work at Quincy Pediatrics.
Speaker 7: Back in twenty twenty three? Where did you work Selfial
Speaker 7: Medical Center? And how long had you work there at
Speaker 7: that point.
Speaker 22: In twenty twenty three? I think I had been there
Speaker 22: for about seven years?
Speaker 7: And could you just briefly describe for us your educational
Speaker 7: and training background that enabled you to be a pediatrician.
Speaker 18: Yes.
Speaker 22: I completed medical school at Yukon and then did my
Speaker 22: pediatrics residency at mass General.
Speaker 7: And when you were working at the self Shore practice
Speaker 7: in twenty twenty three, were you assigned as a pediatrician
Speaker 7: for the Clancy family?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how long had you been there? Pediatrician?
Speaker 21: I'm sorry? How long had I? Can you repeat that question?
Speaker 7: How long had you been the family pediatrician for the Clancys.
Speaker 21: I believe I started seeing them around twenty nineteen.
Speaker 7: And in the practice that you were in at that time,
Speaker 7: was it just yourself or were there other doctors and
Speaker 7: nurse practitioners and staff that would treat and see patients.
Speaker 21: It was a somewhat large group.
Speaker 7: And so would you always be the one treating the
Speaker 7: Clancy children or would some of your associates sometimes see
Speaker 7: the children.
Speaker 22: I did all the checkups, but if there was a
Speaker 22: sickness and I wasn't there that day, they would be
Speaker 22: seen by another provider.
Speaker 7: And by checkup are you referring to a physical or
Speaker 7: well visit.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: And then if for example, one of the children were
Speaker 7: ill and the family called to make an appointment, they
Speaker 7: would see who's available.
Speaker 22: Yes, they would always check my schedule first, but often
Speaker 22: have to see someone else.
Speaker 7: And would you have access to their records as their
Speaker 7: lead pediatrician to review if they came in for a
Speaker 7: sick visit or something like that, to keep yourself updated. Yeah.
Speaker 22: Often at the time of the checkup is when we
Speaker 22: will go back and see what visits they've had since
Speaker 22: the last time we saw them.
Speaker 7: This time, I'd move to submit the pediatric records from
Speaker 7: Self Shore Medical Center for Cora Bowsson and Clancy.
Speaker 6: Any objection it may be admitted.
Speaker 7: If we could focus for a moment on callen Clancy.
Speaker 7: He was born in May of twenty twenty two, correct,
Speaker 7: that sounds right, Yes, and you were his pediatrician from
Speaker 7: the time he was born. Yes, while you were his pediatrician,
Speaker 7: did his mother, Lindsay Clancy, ever talk to you about
Speaker 7: Kllen having issues taking a bottle?
Speaker 21: Not that I can remember.
Speaker 7: Was there anything out of the ordinary health wise with Callen?
Speaker 21: No?
Speaker 7: Was there any issues or were there any issues with
Speaker 7: him meeting his milestones?
Speaker 21: No?
Speaker 17: No?
Speaker 7: What about Dawson Clancy? Did he have any health issues
Speaker 7: or concerns that you were aware of?
Speaker 22: If I recall correctly from the notes, I think just
Speaker 22: a peanut allergy if I remember, But otherwise he was
Speaker 22: healthy and.
Speaker 7: Core Clancy did she have any medical issues?
Speaker 22: I think asthma That was pretty welcome trolled, but she
Speaker 22: was also healthy.
Speaker 7: Now, in your role as a pediatrician, are you aware
Speaker 7: of postpartum issues and are there certain things that you
Speaker 7: look for in new moms when you're treating babies.
Speaker 22: Yes, we were certainly aware of it, and we try
Speaker 22: to look for any kind of outward signs at some
Speaker 22: of the initial newborn visits. Do you want me to elaborate, yes, please, So,
Speaker 22: for example, things we might look for would be if
Speaker 22: a mom is kind of has a flat affect, or
Speaker 22: not really making eye contact, or tearfull, or having trouble
Speaker 22: bonding with the with the baby.
Speaker 7: And if there are those issues that you see, do
Speaker 7: you document them in the medical records?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what do you do in terms of treatment or
Speaker 7: care when you see those things?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 22: So, since since we're obviously caring for the child, we
Speaker 22: are not really able to diagnose or manage anything for
Speaker 22: the mom, but we do try to connect her with resources,
Speaker 22: whether Massachusetts has some postpartum resources or often will refer
Speaker 22: to have her try to contact her OBI.
Speaker 7: When you were interacting with Lindsay Clancy when you were
Speaker 7: treating her three children, did you ever see the need
Speaker 7: to refer her for any of those services?
Speaker 17: No?
Speaker 7: And did you ever see any of those visible signs
Speaker 7: that you talked about, the flat affect or anything like
Speaker 7: that when you were interacting with her.
Speaker 21: I don't remember anything like that. No.
Speaker 7: Now I want to ask you about some of the
Speaker 7: things that are in the medical record that the jurors
Speaker 7: will see, so that you can just kind of explain
Speaker 7: what they'll be looking at. Showing you a record here
Speaker 7: from January eighteenth, twenty twenty three. Issues with the brightnesself.
Speaker 7: Just bring it to you. I just look that over.
Speaker 7: But consistent with the medical records from your practice.
Speaker 4: Yes, and so.
Speaker 7: For example with this visit callan Clancy seven month old
Speaker 7: mail here with mom for bilateral bilateral air pulling and festiness.
Speaker 7: So is that typical in the medical records where you'll
Speaker 7: document the patient being seen, the age, who they're there with,
Speaker 7: and what the issue is. Yes, okay, And how do
Speaker 7: you get a history, say, when a kid comes in
Speaker 7: and they're sick, how do you get the history of
Speaker 7: their symptoms and what's going on with them?
Speaker 22: So we usually do a brief review in the chart
Speaker 22: just to know what their anything on their so called
Speaker 22: problem list meant for medical conditions, and then in the
Speaker 22: room we ask the parents the story. In pediatrics, usually
Speaker 22: we have to rely on a.
Speaker 7: Guardian, especially when it's it's like a seven month old
Speaker 7: who can't speak for themselves. So it would be whichever
Speaker 7: parents A person is there giving you their concerns and
Speaker 7: the symptoms and communicating with what's about what's going on? Yes,
Speaker 7: And if there were any issues with communicating with the
Speaker 7: parent present, would that be documented in the medical records. Yes.
Speaker 7: And you saw Core Clancy on January twenty fourth, twenty
Speaker 7: three for physical correct. Yes, And as you say stated earlier,
Speaker 7: prior to seeing her for the physical, did you look
Speaker 7: over her chart to see if she had been in
Speaker 7: recently with any illnesses or anything like that.
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 21: I would have done that, and.
Speaker 7: So would you have seen this note when her mother
Speaker 7: brought her in on December twenty seventh, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 7: with some vomiting and sore throat. Yes, And again if
Speaker 7: there had been concerns at that appointment, they would have
Speaker 7: been noted in the record.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: And then as the pediatrician, if you'd seen some concerns,
Speaker 7: would you have addressed them with the parent?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And that didn't happen on January twenty fourth correct. Correct,
Speaker 7: And speaking specifically to January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three,
Speaker 7: that was Core's five year physical, is that right?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And sometimes in the record it's called a well visit? Yes?
Speaker 7: And what were your observations of Coorr that day?
Speaker 22: As far as I can recall, it was a very
Speaker 22: normal visit. Cora seemed to be behaving normally, I mean,
Speaker 22: no kids, happy to be there, for a checkup, But
Speaker 22: I didn't notice anything out of the norm. She seemed
Speaker 22: perfectly well behaved and mom seemed appropriate as well.
Speaker 7: Mom seemed appropriate.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 7: Did you notice anything out of the ordinary about Lindsey
Speaker 7: Clancy's demeanor or behavior or interaction with you?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 7: Was she able to give you a history of how
Speaker 7: Kor was doing and what milestone she was meeting?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: Was she able to answer your questions? Yes? Did you
Speaker 7: have any trouble understanding her at any point?
Speaker 18: No?
Speaker 7: Did she seem to have any trouble understanding you?
Speaker 17: No?
Speaker 7: Did she have, you know, visible tears or a flat
Speaker 7: affect or anything like that.
Speaker 17: No.
Speaker 7: Did you have a discussion with Lindsay Clancy about Cora
Speaker 7: having some stomach aches?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was your evaluation of that in your recommendation?
Speaker 22: So we talked about the belly pains she was having it.
Speaker 22: From what I could tell, I thought constipation might be
Speaker 22: possible because it's something we see a lot in kids.
Speaker 22: So I had suggested we try Mira Relax, which is
Speaker 22: a common stool softener we use, and wanted her to
Speaker 22: see me within two weeks if Cora wasn't feeling.
Speaker 7: Better, and when you recommended the Marra Alexe. Was Lindsay
Speaker 7: Clancy receptive to that?
Speaker 21: Yes, I believe so.
Speaker 7: And no for the questions, thank you, good morning.
Speaker 8: What's the timeframe that you dealt with the Clancy children
Speaker 8: because you took care of all three of them, right,
Speaker 8: all three? And when you would see the children, who
Speaker 8: would bring the children to see you for the checkups?
Speaker 9: Was it Lindsay or was it Lindsay and Patrick?
Speaker 22: I think that Lindsay and Patrick came together for one
Speaker 22: of the one of course checkups, But as far.
Speaker 21: As I can remember, every other visit was always Lindsay.
Speaker 8: And being an experienced pediatrician and being very protective of
Speaker 8: your patients little kids, you're always looking to see if
Speaker 8: there's anything out of the ordinary, bruising, anything indicative of
Speaker 8: any type of psychiatric problems, they may have stunted growth
Speaker 8: or anything ze correct. Yes, you're always on the lookout
Speaker 8: for anything else, even if it's.
Speaker 9: Not mentioned to you.
Speaker 8: Right, Did you ever notice anything like that on the
Speaker 8: Clancy kids?
Speaker 9: Did they seem healthy?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 9: Did they seem happy?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 8: And you know all the times that you would see
Speaker 8: Lindsay with the kids at your office, did she appear
Speaker 8: to be a doting or concerned mother for the children.
Speaker 8: One of the questions that the DA had asked you
Speaker 8: is whether or not you're familiar with postpatum depression, postpatum psychosis, things.
Speaker 9: Of that nature.
Speaker 8: Would you agree with me in your experience, extensive as
Speaker 8: it is, that a person can be suffering from postpatum
Speaker 8: depression he and or postpatum psychosis and still talk.
Speaker 22: I'm not sure it's I have enough expertise to explain
Speaker 22: to answer that.
Speaker 9: Well, that's fine, that's fine, thank you.
Speaker 8: Was lindsay the type of person to your observation and
Speaker 8: your treatment of her that she was kind of like?
Speaker 8: Was she like a complainer? Would she complained to you
Speaker 8: about the kids being a pain in the neck and
Speaker 8: that she was aggravated with the children or anything like.
Speaker 21: That, not that I remember now, and all.
Speaker 8: Of the times that you had seen her, Let's focus
Speaker 8: say on the year of twenty twenty two up through
Speaker 8: twenty twenty three January twenty fourth, when you.
Speaker 9: Saw the children.
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, Cora, I believe it was last counsel had
Speaker 8: asked you whether or not you made any observations that
Speaker 8: you would have noted if she appeared to be suffering
Speaker 8: from any any symptomology of postpartum Do you recall.
Speaker 9: Her asking you that?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 8: And in your treatment of the children and in your
Speaker 8: observations of lindsay, did you know or did she indicate
Speaker 8: to you or did Patrick indicate to you or anybody
Speaker 8: indicate to you that in October of twenty twenty two
Speaker 8: she was seeing a psychiatrist?
Speaker 21: No?
Speaker 9: Do you know doctor Tufts?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 9: Did you know that after seeing doctor Tuffts.
Speaker 8: That she was placed on a selective of serotonin reuptate
Speaker 8: inhibitor SSIRA.
Speaker 9: As Oll left.
Speaker 21: No, I didn't know that.
Speaker 8: And again this is Youah, the pediatrician. It's not your
Speaker 8: job to pry. I mean if somebody, if you see something,
Speaker 8: you would make note of it and try to help
Speaker 8: them out. But I mean if they don't tell you,
Speaker 8: you don't know, right, did you know? If you had
Speaker 8: to say that, you didn't know that she was then
Speaker 8: seeing a doctor Paul, and then Paul left the practice
Speaker 8: and doctor nurse practitioner Jelata.
Speaker 21: I didn't know that.
Speaker 9: Okay? Do you know them?
Speaker 15: No?
Speaker 8: The only reason why I ask you know them is
Speaker 8: that you South Shoa Medical Center is that is that
Speaker 8: affiliated with Southshua hospital.
Speaker 4: I believe it was.
Speaker 21: It was already owned by the hospital at that time.
Speaker 8: Okay, Latasha Duke's nothing about her any medications. Did you
Speaker 8: know about her being in any medications?
Speaker 21: No, I didn't.
Speaker 9: She didn't complain to you and.
Speaker 8: Say that she had in saw him here and that
Speaker 8: she was unable to sleep or having difficulty.
Speaker 21: Like that, not that I can remember.
Speaker 9: Until institution, I didn't know that.
Speaker 8: So when you saw her in January twenty fourth, you
Speaker 8: did not know that she had been to McLain hospital
Speaker 8: and had been on medications or anything. Right, That's correct,
Speaker 8: because again she wasn't a complainer.
Speaker 7: Correct.
Speaker 8: She was the hell of her mother, wasn't she.
Speaker 21: I always thought she was a good mom.
Speaker 9: Thank you?
Speaker 7: Redirected Jana, thank you do thank you from both called
Speaker 7: Susan for you.
Speaker 6: I asked you to keep your wish up speaking to
Speaker 6: that microphone. Can we Sprague?
Speaker 13: Please?
Speaker 7: Thank you? Can you please stay and spill your name
Speaker 7: for the record.
Speaker 23: Susan freyone, sus An Frni and your date of birth eleven,
Speaker 23: twenty six eighty two.
Speaker 7: Where do you work Learning Sprouts and how long have
Speaker 7: you been working at Learning Sprouts Almost six years? What
Speaker 7: is learning Sprouts Preschool daycare. What age range of kids
Speaker 7: attend Learning Sprouts fifteen months to about five years? And
Speaker 7: what age range do you teach.
Speaker 4: The about three year olds to four year olds?
Speaker 7: And back in January of twenty twenty three, what age
Speaker 7: range were you focused on the teaching three year old
Speaker 7: four year olds? Was Dawson Clancy in your classroom?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: When did you start in your classroom?
Speaker 4: September of twenty two?
Speaker 7: And did you know Cora Clancy as well?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: How did you know Kora?
Speaker 23: Most of the teachers help out in all the classrooms,
Speaker 23: so we get to know all the children.
Speaker 7: And did you teach Dawson from September of twenty twenty
Speaker 7: two until you went on maternity leave later on in
Speaker 7: twenty twenty two?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: Do you remember what month that was in that you
Speaker 7: went on leave?
Speaker 4: November?
Speaker 7: Prior to going on leave, so from September to November
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty two, were there any issues with Dawson?
Speaker 23: He started having harder drop offs around mid October.
Speaker 7: I would say is that typical for that age or
Speaker 7: is that something unusual?
Speaker 4: Sometimes?
Speaker 7: Yes, it was a little not typical for Dawson. So
Speaker 7: prior to that he was found at drop offs and
Speaker 7: then sometime in October drop offs became a little harder
Speaker 7: for him Yes, And did that resolve over time?
Speaker 23: Sometimes he would have better dropped offs other times.
Speaker 7: But then I went on leave. So and after you
Speaker 7: went on leave, sometime after Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two,
Speaker 7: did you see Lindsay Clancy, Dawson's mother. Don't really remember?
Speaker 4: I think I did.
Speaker 7: Do you recall having a conversation with Lindsay where she
Speaker 7: asked you how your baby was and how you were doing.
Speaker 23: Yes, we did have a conversation at some point because
Speaker 23: I was still bringing my oldest daughter to school every day.
Speaker 7: And so you had your child in November. And then
Speaker 7: this conversation is sometime either around or after Thanksgiving?
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: And when you had this conversation and interaction with Lindsay Clancy,
Speaker 7: is that at the school?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how is her demeanor fine? Was it any different
Speaker 7: than any other time you had seen her?
Speaker 24: No?
Speaker 7: Did she appear to understand you?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: Did you have any trouble understanding her?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 7: Did you have any concerns about her at that time?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 7: Was that the last time you saw her?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And you're a mandated reporter, correct yes. So if you
Speaker 7: had seen anything about Dawson's behavior or about the parent's
Speaker 7: behavior at any point that caused you concern, you would
Speaker 7: have had to report that correct. Yes, And at no
Speaker 7: time did you make any reports about the family or
Speaker 7: the children or the parents.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 7: When you had that conversation with Lindsay Clancy sometime in
Speaker 7: November of twenty twenty two, did she ever say anything
Speaker 7: about and somnia or not feeling well or being depressed
Speaker 7: or anything like that.
Speaker 6: Thank you cross.
Speaker 8: So how long did you, in your capacity as a
Speaker 8: teacher at Learning Sports know the clan sees.
Speaker 23: I started at Learning Spots in November of twenty twenty
Speaker 23: and Cora was in preschool at the time.
Speaker 8: Okay, so you obviously saw the kids on a fairly
Speaker 8: regular basis.
Speaker 9: Yes, And forget me, what does a drop off? What
Speaker 9: does that mean?
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, when the parents dropped the children off at school?
Speaker 9: Okay?
Speaker 8: And when DOESICC attorney asked you with their difficult drop offs?
Speaker 9: What does that mean?
Speaker 23: Sometimes when parents drop the children off, they'll be a
Speaker 23: little clingy or they cry.
Speaker 8: Excuse me, they cry, and that would be the child
Speaker 8: would cry, maybe the.
Speaker 9: Parent either, I don't know, But times so.
Speaker 8: Did they have difficult drop offs on occasion? I guess
Speaker 8: the dotsman would cry? Yes, how would lends you react?
Speaker 9: Was she okay? Did she take did she seem concerned
Speaker 9: as a parent? Okay?
Speaker 8: And and Duston appeared to be healthy and happy and engaged, yes,
Speaker 8: as well as Cora.
Speaker 9: Yes, thank you.
Speaker 6: Thank you, all right, thank you man, you sit down,
Speaker 6: thank you?
Speaker 25: Oats of stuff?
Speaker 7: Come on?
Speaker 15: What would call Susan Bartolo?
Speaker 6: Lots of stuff?
Speaker 12: Pleas?
Speaker 5: Yeah, good morning, good morning?
Speaker 6: Ask you speaking to that microphone? Okay, keep your voice
Speaker 6: up so we can hear you.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, come on, thank you, good morning. Could
Speaker 4: you please tell the jurors your first and last name,
Speaker 4: Susan Bartolo, and if you could just speak as loud
Speaker 4: as you can into that microphone. Okay, yep? Can you
Speaker 4: spell your last name for the record?
Speaker 7: B E R T O L O.
Speaker 4: And what city of your town do you live in? Plymouth, Messes?
Speaker 4: And where do you work Leaping Frogs Preschool? Prior to
Speaker 4: working at Leaping Frogs, did you work at another preschool?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 4: Did you teach a particular age group at that preschool?
Speaker 12: Yes?
Speaker 4: I taught the older preschool group. Okay, and at Learning Sprouts,
Speaker 4: are the classes kind of divided up in some way?
Speaker 24: They're divided by age with toddlers younger preschool, older preschool.
Speaker 4: And is there a particular label to the rooms that
Speaker 4: they're in or they referred to in a particular way.
Speaker 24: Yes, we were Sunflowers, So your group, the three to
Speaker 24: five year olds is the Sunflower group?
Speaker 14: Yes?
Speaker 4: And can you tell us a little bit about how
Speaker 4: the day is broken up for kids in the Sunflower group? Sure?
Speaker 24: So some children came in early at eight, and then
Speaker 24: the rest of the kids came in at nine fifteen,
Speaker 24: and then some are half day and some were full day.
Speaker 4: And as far as excuse me, your role with the
Speaker 4: kids in the Sunflower room merrily interacted with them in
Speaker 4: the mornings. Correct, Correct, And when the kids get dropped off,
Speaker 4: is it fair to say the bulk of the kids
Speaker 4: get dropped off round nine?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 4: And does that happen kind of like in a wave
Speaker 4: where parents drop off and they're kind of taken into
Speaker 4: the room as a group.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 24: So the way our classroom was set up, we met them,
Speaker 24: they were dropped off to us at the door, and.
Speaker 7: Then we brought them into our classroom.
Speaker 4: And they stayed with you in that classroom throughout the morning, correct, Yes.
Speaker 4: And the kids who stayed for the afternoon, did they
Speaker 4: stay with you in the Sunflower room or did they
Speaker 4: go someplace else? No, they did not stay with us.
Speaker 24: We closed up our room, and our kids, the majority
Speaker 24: of our kids, we had a couple went over to
Speaker 24: the Sweetpea room, which was across the hall.
Speaker 4: And so are you familiar with Cora Clancier? Were you
Speaker 4: familiar with Cora?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 4: And was she in the Sunflower room with you? Yes?
Speaker 4: She was drawing your attention to September of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4: What was her schedule if you can work all.
Speaker 24: I believe she was scheduled. I don't remember the days.
Speaker 24: I think she came three.
Speaker 4: Days, okay. And for the three days that she came,
Speaker 4: do you remember if she was just in the morning
Speaker 4: group or were there any days that she eventually did
Speaker 4: an afternoon.
Speaker 24: So in the beginning of the year she was three
Speaker 24: days and then went full day, and then towards the
Speaker 24: end of her time in that room she did one
Speaker 24: afternoon I believe, and I'm sorry, one half day.
Speaker 4: Okay, So fair to say, and fair to say there
Speaker 4: were always the two of you assigned to one room
Speaker 4: with the number of kids in the class.
Speaker 13: Correct.
Speaker 4: Now, as far as drop offs, for Cora, did you
Speaker 4: have the opportunity to interact with parents that drop off?
Speaker 19: Briefly?
Speaker 4: And for Cora how who used to drop her off?
Speaker 24: Both both parents dropped off, Pat Anne, lindsay.
Speaker 4: Did you see one parent more than the other?
Speaker 24: I recall seeing Pat more, but we took her and
Speaker 24: so as we didn't really ask each other who dropped off.
Speaker 4: When you say we took turns, you mean yourself in Karen,
Speaker 4: Karen correct? Now, with the limited interaction at drop off,
Speaker 4: did you have opportunities to interact in other ways with parents? Yes?
Speaker 4: And how did you interact with parents in other ways?
Speaker 4: And that's something that can be done on the phone
Speaker 4: or computer?
Speaker 13: Correct?
Speaker 4: And were the Clancy's meaning Patrick and Lindsay fairly active
Speaker 4: or responsive to the dojo app Yes? And do you
Speaker 4: know or do you recall who would be more responsive?
Speaker 11: Lindsay?
Speaker 7: How was Coorra as a as a preschool student amazing?
Speaker 4: She was wonderful? Was she, in your opinion ready for kindergarten?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty third
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three. Do you remember Cora coming that day?
Speaker 9: Yep?
Speaker 4: And do you recall who dropped her off?
Speaker 13: I do not.
Speaker 4: Did you notice anything different about Cora that day?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 24: And what was different she needed to use the bathroom
Speaker 24: several times more than she normally would.
Speaker 4: And is the reason why that kind of stood stood
Speaker 4: out to you that she used the bathroom more than often? Yes?
Speaker 24: Because our classroom did not have a bathroom in it,
Speaker 24: so we would go down at schedule times before snack
Speaker 24: or lunch, and if a child need to go, one
Speaker 24: of us would take that child, and that particular day
Speaker 24: she went several times extra and.
Speaker 4: So between you and Karen, you were kind of taking
Speaker 4: her more often to the bathroom. Was she complaining of
Speaker 4: any belly pain or any other issues? She didn't complain,
Speaker 4: but the fact that she asked to use the bathroom
Speaker 4: was of note to you. Yes. And when Cora transitioned
Speaker 4: that afternoon to go to the sweet Fee room with Stephanie,
Speaker 4: did you pass along those observations to the afternoon teacher.
Speaker 24: Yes, I did, because that was something that you would
Speaker 24: want a parent to know was.
Speaker 4: Unusual, and during that morning group, you didn't feel it
Speaker 4: was necessary to reach out to either Patrick or Lindsay
Speaker 4: to report that, did you know? But you reported it
Speaker 4: to Stephanie to pass along for the afternoon.
Speaker 13: Correct.
Speaker 4: And on that particular afternoon, were you at learning Sprouts
Speaker 4: during pickup time?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 4: I was, and that wasn't always the case, was it.
Speaker 7: Not every day?
Speaker 24: But I often would help out in the toddler room
Speaker 24: if they needed me to stay, and that is what
Speaker 24: I had done that afternoon.
Speaker 4: So on that particular afternoon at pickup time, did you
Speaker 4: have the occasion to see Lindsay Clancy, Yes, I did,
Speaker 4: And did you have an opportunity to speak with her?
Speaker 9: Yep.
Speaker 24: We spoke quickly and I just was letting her know,
Speaker 24: and she she did already know, but we just spoke quickly.
Speaker 4: That she had gone a few times, so you were
Speaker 4: letting her know about Core going to the bathroom.
Speaker 13: Correct.
Speaker 4: And how did she respond when you told her.
Speaker 24: That she's She said, I don't remember exactly the words,
Speaker 24: but basically that she wasn't glad that she wasn't feeling well,
Speaker 24: but she already had a doctor's appointment the next day
Speaker 24: so that she would let them know.
Speaker 4: And that interaction was fairly brief.
Speaker 7: Correct.
Speaker 4: But appropriate, and they left that day. Did you notice
Speaker 4: anything different about Lindsay Clancy after you told her that,
Speaker 4: or in that brief interaction than any of your other
Speaker 4: interactions with her.
Speaker 11: No.
Speaker 4: And you are a mandated reporter at the preschool, correct,
Speaker 4: So if a child were to come in with any
Speaker 4: concerning Marx or bruises, or was saying something about things
Speaker 4: that were happening in the household, you would be required
Speaker 4: to report those to the Department of Children and Families.
Speaker 4: Any concerns or reports regarding the Clancy family at all
Speaker 4: during the time that you were a chorus teacher. Never,
Speaker 4: And do you recall of cour ever mentioned to you
Speaker 4: during class during the time that you were teaching in
Speaker 4: the morning class. This is a time when her mom
Speaker 4: was in the hospital. Yes, And what do you recall
Speaker 4: about that?
Speaker 24: Just that she was she missed her mom, and she
Speaker 24: was vocal about that.
Speaker 4: Do you remember about when that was that she said
Speaker 4: something about her mom being in the hospital.
Speaker 24: It was I can't remember. It was in December January.
Speaker 24: I just remember that that was it was said.
Speaker 4: But fair to say it was closer in time to
Speaker 4: the last time you saw her, as opposed to the
Speaker 4: beginning of the school year. Yes, just to briefly go
Speaker 4: back to Cora's schedule. I know you say you can't
Speaker 4: remember exactly which day as she came, but by January
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three, Korra was coming for three full
Speaker 4: days and one half day. Correct, Yes, thank you, I.
Speaker 2: Mister Wadington, no questions, Thank you, all right, thank you
Speaker 2: and me said yeah, thank.
Speaker 15: You, Uncle Tall.
Speaker 4: Stephanie Williams, isn't.
Speaker 14: It good morning?
Speaker 2: Ask you to speak into that microphone voice? Pull that down, all.
Speaker 4: Right, thank you, good morning, good morning. Could you please
Speaker 4: tell the jurors your first and last name Stephanie Williams
Speaker 4: and Williams that's just common spelling.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 4: What city of your town do you live in?
Speaker 18: I live in Sagamore Beach.
Speaker 4: And what do you do for work?
Speaker 18: I'm a pre K teacher.
Speaker 4: And where do you work.
Speaker 26: At Learning Sprouts Children's Center and where is that located
Speaker 26: in Docksbury?
Speaker 4: And how long have you worked for Learning.
Speaker 18: Sprouts About six and a half years.
Speaker 4: What age group do you teach?
Speaker 26: I generally teach the pre K children, the four year
Speaker 26: olds that are going to be training five and going
Speaker 26: to kindergarten.
Speaker 4: And at the Learning Sprouts Preschool. Fair to say that
Speaker 4: the different rooms are given a name.
Speaker 18: Yeah, okay, And what.
Speaker 4: Room did you work in or do you work in currently?
Speaker 18: Right now?
Speaker 26: I work in the Sweet Pea classroom. When I first
Speaker 26: started there, I worked in the Orange classroom.
Speaker 4: And I'm going to draw your attention to the fall
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty two, September into January of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: Were you in the sweete room then?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 4: And how many people would teachers would be in the
Speaker 4: Sweetpew room with you?
Speaker 18: I was the only teacher in that room.
Speaker 4: Was it a full day program for you in the
Speaker 4: Sweetpea room?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 4: And were there some kids of that age group, the
Speaker 4: four and five year olds that would only be there
Speaker 4: in your Sweetpee room in the afternoon?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Those kids? Where would they usually be in the morning.
Speaker 18: In the Sunflower class?
Speaker 4: And fair to say the Sunflower class was more academic
Speaker 4: curriculum based and the Sweetpea room was not.
Speaker 18: Yes, Now in the afternoon, yes.
Speaker 4: So tell us a little bit about what afternoons would
Speaker 4: be like.
Speaker 26: Basically, they would go outside to play, they would be
Speaker 26: playing in the room, they would take rest time, and
Speaker 26: then they would get up have an afternoon snack, and
Speaker 26: then if there was time permitting, they would be able
Speaker 26: to play in the classroom or color, do art work.
Speaker 4: And generally the afternoon kids in the Sweetpea room, they'd
Speaker 4: go until four, right, Yes, and that was the time
Speaker 4: for pickup for most of the kids.
Speaker 18: Yes, that's when we closed at four o'clock.
Speaker 4: Okay, did you know Cora Clancy?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 9: I did.
Speaker 4: And how did you know her?
Speaker 26: I was or his teacher when I first started at
Speaker 26: Learning Sports when she was three, and then she came
Speaker 26: into my classroom in the afternoons from September to January.
Speaker 4: So from September of twenty twenty two, when she's still
Speaker 4: four into January of twenty twenty three, after she had
Speaker 4: turned five, she would come three afternoons into your classroom.
Speaker 26: It was first three, then it switched to four afternoons.
Speaker 4: Now when she would come to your classroom in the afternoon,
Speaker 4: what would she be coming into is it snack time, naptime?
Speaker 18: Rest time?
Speaker 26: Usually would be getting ready for rest.
Speaker 4: And would she be brought to your classroom by one
Speaker 4: of the teachers downstairs or at the Sunflower room. Yes,
Speaker 4: And you're familiar with Susan and Karen as the teachers
Speaker 4: in the Sunflowers. Now, how would you describe Cora?
Speaker 26: She was a sweet little girl who loved her little brothers.
Speaker 26: She loved to draw, play with babies, play princess She
Speaker 26: liked Princess Sophia. How did you know she liked Princess
Speaker 26: Sophia because she would pretend to be Princess Sophia and
Speaker 26: she always talked about it, and it actually bought a
Speaker 26: Princess Sophia puzzle for her.
Speaker 4: Now, I'm going to draw your attention to January of
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, more specifically the twenty third. Did Cora
Speaker 4: come to your classroom that afternoon?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 4: She did, And did you observe anything different about her?
Speaker 26: She hadn't been failing well on The teachers from the
Speaker 26: Sunflower class had told me that she wasn't failing that well.
Speaker 4: Did you observe that of her as well?
Speaker 13: Well?
Speaker 18: She did nap, and then she.
Speaker 26: When all the other children were getting up and getting
Speaker 26: ready to leave, you know, for the day, she was
Speaker 26: reluctant to get up off her cot and was still
Speaker 26: there when her mother came together.
Speaker 4: Did Cora say anything to you why she wasn't feeling well?
Speaker 18: If she just she I think she just said her
Speaker 18: tummy hurt.
Speaker 4: And so you just kind of let her rest for
Speaker 4: the afternoon.
Speaker 18: And so who picked her up that day, Lindsay.
Speaker 4: And so normally and pick up do they come to
Speaker 4: the does a parent come to the classroom to pick
Speaker 4: up the child?
Speaker 26: They usually come to the door and we send the
Speaker 26: child out.
Speaker 4: And that would just be the door of the classroom
Speaker 4: of the.
Speaker 26: Building, because I had a door that led outside.
Speaker 4: So in this particular afternoon, Lindsay, Lindsay came to pick
Speaker 4: her up at the door. And so, what if anything
Speaker 4: did you tell Lindsay.
Speaker 26: I told her that Cora had napped and she had
Speaker 26: said she wasn't failing well, that the other teachers had
Speaker 26: told me that she hadn't been failing well, and that
Speaker 26: she was still laying on her cot.
Speaker 4: And what did Lindsay say or do after you told
Speaker 4: her that?
Speaker 26: She came into the classroom and picked her up off
Speaker 26: the cot and said, oh, baby, come on, let's go
Speaker 26: get to usin and.
Speaker 18: We'll go home.
Speaker 4: And so at that moment when she came to the classroom,
Speaker 4: she hadn't already picked Dawson up.
Speaker 18: No, she went upstairs to pick duson.
Speaker 4: Up, and when she came into the classroom and told
Speaker 4: you that and picked up Cora, did you notice anything
Speaker 4: different about her than any of the other times you
Speaker 4: had interacted with her.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 4: In any of the time that you had interacted with
Speaker 4: Lindsay Clancy from September of twenty twenty two to January
Speaker 4: twenty third of twenty twenty three, did you notice anything
Speaker 4: different about her.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 26: She was just a very loving mother who cared about
Speaker 26: our children.
Speaker 4: And did she share anything with you about about her
Speaker 4: family or about anything that was going on in her
Speaker 4: household at that time? Now, and you, as a preschool teacher,
Speaker 4: are and data reporter, correct, Yes, I am, so if
Speaker 4: you were to observe something either on the child or
Speaker 4: from what the child said or behavior for a parent,
Speaker 4: you would be required to report that.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 4: And as far as the Clancy family went, you didn't
Speaker 4: notice anything, and you didn't report anything, did you. No,
Speaker 4: Thank you, it's raising.
Speaker 15: Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Right, thank you, me stepped down, Thank you, watch your
Speaker 5: step come well.
Speaker 7: Called Andrea Hennigan.
Speaker 9: Good morning, good morning. Right.
Speaker 2: They asked you speaking to that microphone, keep your voice
Speaker 2: up so all the jurors.
Speaker 6: Can hear you. Okay, yes, all right, perfect, miss Bray.
Speaker 7: Thank you, good morning. Can you please stay and spell
Speaker 7: your name for the record.
Speaker 27: Andrea Hennigan A N dre e A chi n nig
Speaker 27: A N and your date of birth March eleventh, nineteen
Speaker 27: seventy six.
Speaker 7: What do you do for a living?
Speaker 18: I'm a registered nurse.
Speaker 27: And where do you work Massachusetts General Hospital and do
Speaker 27: you work at any specific department there?
Speaker 7: Labor and delivery? How long have you been a labor
Speaker 7: and delivery nurse at mass General? Twenty five years? And
Speaker 7: as part of your training and work in labor and delivery,
Speaker 7: are you trained in recognizing or or helping new mothers
Speaker 7: who seem to be having issues with postpartum.
Speaker 18: Do you mean postpartum depression?
Speaker 27: Yes, I don't have formal training in that area, and
Speaker 27: I mostly see women before they give birth and immediately afterwards,
Speaker 27: in the first two hours after they give birth.
Speaker 7: If they come back to the hospital.
Speaker 27: During the postpartum period for a concern, we do screen
Speaker 27: patients for postpartum depression, and is.
Speaker 7: That all the nurses that work for the Masternal Hospital
Speaker 7: Labor and Delivery unit are able to do those great
Speaker 7: screenings for postpridum depression.
Speaker 27: Yes, we ask patients questions about if they're suffering from
Speaker 27: depression or anxiety, and if they have any feelings of
Speaker 27: wanting to harm themselves or anyone else.
Speaker 7: That's a standard admission question. And if these patients respond
Speaker 7: that yes, they are having issues with depression, anxiety, or
Speaker 7: wanting to harm themselves or others, what do you do
Speaker 7: with those patients? Do you refer them somewhere or do
Speaker 7: you give them materials?
Speaker 27: What do you do while we would talk more about
Speaker 27: their symptoms with them, and then the first step would
Speaker 27: probably to be alert the provider who's caring for them,
Speaker 27: either the doctor or the nurse midwife in our setting,
Speaker 27: and get social work involved.
Speaker 7: Now, while you were working at Masternal Hospital, did you
Speaker 7: work with Lindsay Clancy?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 13: I did.
Speaker 7: How long did you.
Speaker 27: Work with her the whole time she worked on our unit,
Speaker 27: which I believe was seven years?
Speaker 7: And so when you say our unit, she also worked
Speaker 7: in labor and delivery with you? Is that correct?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 7: And in addition to seeing her at work, would you
Speaker 7: also socialize with her occasionally outside of work? Occasionally?
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: Directing your attention to after Mss Clancy gave birth to
Speaker 7: Callen which May of twenty twenty two. So after May
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty two, did you reach out to her
Speaker 7: talk to her in any way?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 27: I saw Lindsay twice from when Callen was born until January.
Speaker 27: I saw her in June and in November, and we
Speaker 27: would send each other text messages.
Speaker 7: When you saw her in June, where was that?
Speaker 18: That was at her home?
Speaker 4: I brought some.
Speaker 27: Lunch for her and visited with her and the baby
Speaker 27: and Patrick and Dawson were home.
Speaker 7: And how was Lindsay's demeanor during that visit?
Speaker 18: Very good?
Speaker 7: Was she her typical self?
Speaker 19: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how long was that visit?
Speaker 4: For?
Speaker 7: Approximately?
Speaker 18: Maybe two hours or something like that.
Speaker 7: And you said the next time you saw her was
Speaker 7: in November of twenty twenty two. Is that correct? Correct?
Speaker 7: And where was that? It was a restaurant and hang on,
Speaker 7: we met for lunch. And when you met with her
Speaker 7: for lunch in November of twenty twenty two, did Miss
Speaker 7: Clancy talk to you about some issues she was having
Speaker 7: with sleep and in anxiety?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 19: She did.
Speaker 7: What did she tell you about.
Speaker 27: That during the lunch specific I don't remember her exact symptoms.
Speaker 27: Our conversation surrounded her upcoming return to work, and Lindsay
Speaker 27: was feeling that she wasn't in a mental state ready
Speaker 27: to go and take care of patients. She talked about
Speaker 27: insomnia and some not feeling herself. I believe she might
Speaker 27: have used the words like brain fog or something like that.
Speaker 7: And while you were having lunch with her and having
Speaker 7: this discussion, did you ever have any trouble understanding what
Speaker 7: she was saying?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 7: Did she ever appear to have difficulty understanding what you
Speaker 7: were saying in response?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 7: Was there anything different about her speech pattern?
Speaker 4: Not that I recall.
Speaker 7: When you were discussing these issues with Lindsay about having
Speaker 7: some insomnia and being concerned about going back to work,
Speaker 7: did you give her any advice or do anything to help.
Speaker 27: Yes, it was myself and two other nurses that we
Speaker 27: work with who Lindsay was friends with outside of work,
Speaker 27: and we were all encouraging her to get the help
Speaker 27: and support that she needed with medication if needed, and
Speaker 27: therapists and giving her any ideas we could think of
Speaker 27: in our personal and professional lives that may help her.
Speaker 7: And did Lindsay tell you that she was looking to
Speaker 7: find some type of medication that would help her sleep
Speaker 7: and help her with her anxiety.
Speaker 27: Yes, I believe we talked about medication and she was
Speaker 27: going to be meeting with a new therapist shortly.
Speaker 7: And during this conversation or after it happened. Did you
Speaker 7: ever have any concerns about her harming herself?
Speaker 17: No?
Speaker 7: Did you ever have any concerns about her harming the children? No?
Speaker 7: Did you give her some names of obstetric social workers?
Speaker 18: I did after our lunch.
Speaker 27: I recall that I reached out to another friend of
Speaker 27: mine who had had a pregnancy loss that was challenging
Speaker 27: for her and had met with obstetrical specific social workers
Speaker 27: and support groups, and I asked that woman, could you
Speaker 27: share those names?
Speaker 7: And I sent them to Lindsay. Did you have some
Speaker 7: text messages between yourself and Lindsay around Thanksgiving of twenty
Speaker 7: twenty two in which she told you about a program
Speaker 7: she was going to try.
Speaker 27: We did have text messages around Thanksgiving. I believe the
Speaker 27: program you're referring to was something that her mother in
Speaker 27: law had told her about at Selshore Hospital that was
Speaker 27: more specific to perinatal issues rather than a general social worker,
Speaker 27: someone who specialized in this area.
Speaker 7: What does perryvatal mean during pregnancy, birth, and after birth.
Speaker 7: So this was a program more focused on women either
Speaker 7: during their pregnancy, while birth, during birth, or right after birth.
Speaker 18: As far as you know, I mean, as far as
Speaker 18: I understood it.
Speaker 27: I just understood it to mean someone who was familiar
Speaker 27: more with postpartum depression or anxiety, was my understanding.
Speaker 7: And did you also receive some text messages from Lindsay
Speaker 7: Clancy right after New Year's on January second, twenty twenty three?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 11: I did?
Speaker 7: And can you tell us what that exchange was?
Speaker 18: Again?
Speaker 27: That was with myself and Lindsay and the two other
Speaker 27: nurses who she had confided in, and we asked her
Speaker 27: how her holidays were and could we get together again
Speaker 27: in the new year? And she said, I can't get
Speaker 27: together right now because I'm involved in an intensive program,
Speaker 27: but hopefully soon.
Speaker 7: And did she wish you a happy New Year? She
Speaker 7: may have, I do not recall. And did she tell
Speaker 7: you that she was in fact at that time at
Speaker 7: McLean Hospital or did she just leave it more vague
Speaker 7: that it was just an intense program.
Speaker 27: I believe it was an intense program. I did not
Speaker 27: know the name of the facility at that time.
Speaker 7: Did you at that time know that she was currently
Speaker 7: at a hospital.
Speaker 27: I don't recall what I knew then versus what I
Speaker 27: know now.
Speaker 7: Did you also speak with Lindsay on January twenty third,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 27: I did not speak to Lindsay. I sent her a
Speaker 27: text message on January twenty third.
Speaker 7: And what did you say in your text message?
Speaker 27: I'm paraphrasing, but I believe I said, Hi, I've been
Speaker 27: thinking of you, wondering if you're still in the daily program.
Speaker 27: I believe I said so. Maybe I didn't realize it
Speaker 27: was impatient.
Speaker 7: And she responded, And what was her response?
Speaker 27: Again, I'm paraphrasing, but she said something like, I'm no
Speaker 27: longer in the program. I'm continuing to work with my
Speaker 27: psychiatrists to find the right medication that will allow me
Speaker 27: to sleep at night but still function during the day.
Speaker 27: I've had a lot of bad or negative side effects
Speaker 27: from the medication, so I've had to come off of
Speaker 27: them and go on new ones, and it's been very
Speaker 27: difficult or has taken a long time, or something like that.
Speaker 7: And after that those text messages that were exchange on
Speaker 7: the twenty third, did you have any concerns that she
Speaker 7: was going to harm herself?
Speaker 17: No?
Speaker 7: The tone of the text messages. Were they more positive
Speaker 7: and hopeful that things were going to work out on
Speaker 7: the right medications.
Speaker 27: I don't know that they were more positive than previous times.
Speaker 4: I believe that Lindsay.
Speaker 27: Was always hopeful that she would get the care that
Speaker 27: she was seeking.
Speaker 7: So I don't know that the tone was different that day,
Speaker 7: but it wasn't a negative tone. It was that same
Speaker 7: kind of hopeful tone.
Speaker 27: Yes, as far as I remember, thank you, thank you, tream.
Speaker 18: Ready, good morning.
Speaker 8: So even during the uh say, the difficult times that
Speaker 8: she had, she was always trying to be hopeful and
Speaker 8: always tried.
Speaker 9: To have a pause devout look on her health.
Speaker 18: That was my impression.
Speaker 9: Yes, and you obviously are a good friend.
Speaker 18: Yes, I believe so.
Speaker 9: And you've known her for what seven years? Nine years now?
Speaker 10: Right?
Speaker 27: Yes, I believe I believe since twenty fifteen if that's
Speaker 27: when she began working at mass General.
Speaker 8: Right, so she was like a twenty four year old
Speaker 8: kid when she first started there. Yes, and you basically
Speaker 8: knew her right at a nursing school all the way
Speaker 8: up through Yeah, so she finally had the baby, the
Speaker 8: last baby, right, Can you tell us what was her
Speaker 8: work ethic? Was she a good nurse. Was she a
Speaker 8: caring nurse? Was she tell us what your observations were.
Speaker 8: Granted that your friend and you might be biased, but
Speaker 8: tell us what you thought.
Speaker 27: Yes, Lindsay loved being a nurse and was excellent at it.
Speaker 27: It was a degree, a second degree for her to
Speaker 27: go to nursing school. And you could tell with Lindsay
Speaker 27: it was more of a calling that she really cared
Speaker 27: so deeply, specifically about caring for pregnant women and women
Speaker 27: giving birth. She was very attentive to all of her
Speaker 27: patients' needs. She was very smart, and mostly she was
Speaker 27: incredibly nurturing and caring.
Speaker 9: Thank you.
Speaker 8: And during the period of time in the fall of
Speaker 8: twenty twenty two up through Thanksgiving of twenty two and
Speaker 8: then into twenty.
Speaker 9: Three, you, obviously as a good.
Speaker 8: Friend, stayed in close contact with her, texting, seeing her
Speaker 8: dinner at lunches.
Speaker 9: And everything right.
Speaker 8: Yes, and then when you and some of the other
Speaker 8: nurses would would go to a lunch for example, if
Speaker 8: I understand correctly, on one of the luncheons that you
Speaker 8: had in the fall of twenty two, she was telling
Speaker 8: or sharing with you the fact that she was going through.
Speaker 9: A difficult period.
Speaker 8: Yes, I told you that she was not in a
Speaker 8: good mental state, that she had a lot of insomnir
Speaker 8: and she even described it as brain fog.
Speaker 18: Right, Yes, I believe so.
Speaker 27: She definitely used those words in our text messages, you know,
Speaker 27: as the fall progressed. But I believe she used those
Speaker 27: words during the lunch. She definitely said that she was
Speaker 27: in a difficult mental place and wouldn't be able to
Speaker 27: didn't think she'd be able to go.
Speaker 7: Back to work.
Speaker 8: And she told you that she was actually actively treating
Speaker 8: with medical personnel. Did she say a psychiatrist, psychologist, or
Speaker 8: just seeing doctors or what?
Speaker 9: Did she say?
Speaker 4: Yes, she.
Speaker 27: Talked about therapists, She talked about going on medication. At
Speaker 27: some point in that month of November, she said she
Speaker 27: had even gone to the emergency department.
Speaker 8: Did she tell you that she was having negative side
Speaker 8: effects with the medication that she had been prescribed by
Speaker 8: these doctors.
Speaker 18: She did.
Speaker 27: She did not elaborate on the side effects, but she
Speaker 27: did say that multiple times.
Speaker 8: So as close as you were for all those years
Speaker 8: working together, and you guys worked together through the COVID too, right, Yes,
Speaker 8: is that a bonding experience for nurses?
Speaker 9: Yes, during that period of time.
Speaker 8: Did you ever observe her was she was she a complainer, like,
Speaker 8: would she come and complain to you or was she
Speaker 8: pretty much private but would share her opinions of what
Speaker 8: was happening inside of her.
Speaker 27: She was not a complainer about work or home or anything.
Speaker 27: But we were friends and she did share more personal
Speaker 27: details with me.
Speaker 8: And when she was working, would you, guys, be working
Speaker 8: on the night shift.
Speaker 9: Or was she work in the afternoon or the night shift?
Speaker 9: Night shift?
Speaker 8: So when you did you do you ever see her
Speaker 8: go on her phone and access cameras to see what
Speaker 8: was going on at home with.
Speaker 9: The babies or anything like that.
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 8: Is that something that she would do on a regular basis,
Speaker 8: staying in touch with the family and looking at the cameras.
Speaker 11: Yes.
Speaker 9: Did she ever tell you why she was doing that?
Speaker 4: Not specifically, okay, to.
Speaker 8: Your appearance or to your observation if you had to
Speaker 8: be very concerned about her kids.
Speaker 18: Right, Yes?
Speaker 8: Did you ever hear her complain that she wanted to
Speaker 8: leave behind the life that she had and basically move
Speaker 8: on something better.
Speaker 18: Oh, no, Lindsay.
Speaker 27: From the time I met her, as a young woman,
Speaker 27: very much desired to be a mother and have a family.
Speaker 8: And she did share with you that her mother in
Speaker 8: law actually referred her to somebody for some help as well.
Speaker 9: Correct. Yes, in the holiday period, I stayed in touch.
Speaker 8: Again, you were texting her, and that's when she was
Speaker 8: Now we know she was in McLean hospital, but she
Speaker 8: told you she was in an intensive.
Speaker 9: Program, right.
Speaker 11: Correct.
Speaker 8: In other words, she didn't say I can't go to
Speaker 8: lunch with you guys because I'm in a mental hospital.
Speaker 9: She basically said, I'm treating my problems.
Speaker 8: Correct to your years of dealing with Lindsay and seeing
Speaker 8: her with her kids and her family, what's your opinion.
Speaker 9: Of her as a mother?
Speaker 27: Lindsay was a very loving, caring mother. This is exactly
Speaker 27: what she wanted to have met. She wanted a big family.
Speaker 27: She was happy to have her children close in age.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, redirect ya, thank you.
Speaker 11: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Almost called Bethany to call us.
Speaker 15: Yeah, what do just that?
Speaker 13: Please?
Speaker 5: All right, good morning, good morning, council.
Speaker 7: Thank you. Can you please state and spell your name
Speaker 7: for the.
Speaker 12: Record, Bethany decalobus b E T H A N Y D.
Speaker 21: E C O L L I b U S in
Speaker 21: your date of birth.
Speaker 7: Six eighty nine. What do you do for work?
Speaker 12: I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Speaker 7: And do you have your own practice? I do have
Speaker 7: a private practice. How long have you been in this
Speaker 7: line of work.
Speaker 12: I've had the private practice for about six years, but
Speaker 12: I've been licensed for close to twelve.
Speaker 7: And in your practice? Do you do in person therapy
Speaker 7: or telehealth therapy? I do telehealth therapy right now. Do
Speaker 7: you know Lindsay Clancy?
Speaker 9: I do.
Speaker 7: How do you know her?
Speaker 12: We were friends met as new moms in the same town.
Speaker 7: Would that be dug spray? Yes? And how often would
Speaker 7: you see her? I'd say probably weekly? And where would
Speaker 7: that occur?
Speaker 12: Our kids were involved in similar activities, music classes, gymnastics classes,
Speaker 12: we'd schedule play dates.
Speaker 7: What was her typical demeanor? She was active, engaged, friendly.
Speaker 7: Did you ever notice any distinctive changes in her rate
Speaker 7: of speech or the way she spoke?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: Did you ever see any extreme changes in energy or
Speaker 7: weird behavior?
Speaker 12: No changes in weird behavior. But I did notice that
Speaker 12: she appeared more tired.
Speaker 6: Could you repeat that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 12: I was answering the second part of your question. I
Speaker 12: didn't notice any changes in behavior, but I did notice
Speaker 12: her appearing more tired over time?
Speaker 7: And was that after she had callen or before that afterwards?
Speaker 7: And how often would you see her after she had
Speaker 7: callen weekly? So still still going to the same types
Speaker 7: of places where you would run into her and engage
Speaker 7: with her. Is that correct?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And other than seeing seeming more tired, was there any
Speaker 7: other change in her demeanor or personality or behavior. Did
Speaker 7: she tell you during that time that she was having
Speaker 7: trouble sleeping? Yes? And did she give you any specifics
Speaker 7: on that.
Speaker 12: Just that it was very difficult to get to get sleep,
Speaker 12: difficult to fall asleep, even when kids were asleep, and
Speaker 12: that it was just a it was an ongoing struggle.
Speaker 7: Did that cause concern for you at that point?
Speaker 12: I think for a period of time it felt normal,
Speaker 12: but after it seemed to continue and not let up
Speaker 12: for her, I definitely worried about her and was concerned.
Speaker 7: When you say it seems normal, what do you mean
Speaker 7: by that?
Speaker 12: At first, I would say for a period of time,
Speaker 12: seemed reminiscent of you know, sleep truggles that you know
Speaker 12: I remember having and that you know remember friends talking about.
Speaker 12: But I think over time I started to worry more
Speaker 12: and realized that it wasn't improving for her?
Speaker 7: And what you're talking about is it? You know, typically
Speaker 7: after having a baby, new moms are tired from you know,
Speaker 7: late night feedings and changings and all of that.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: And then with Lindsay she stayed tired.
Speaker 8: Yes.
Speaker 7: Did she talk to you about seeking out help from doctors?
Speaker 9: She did?
Speaker 7: And did she talk to you about seeking out medication
Speaker 7: to help?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: And do you recall any specifics about those conversations about
Speaker 7: what types of doctors or what types of medication she
Speaker 7: was seeking.
Speaker 12: I don't know about the diferent types of doctors of
Speaker 12: the types of medications.
Speaker 7: Did you ever talk to her and she related that
Speaker 7: she was looking to find a therapist.
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And do you know if she ever found a therapist?
Speaker 12: At some point it did sound like she had found
Speaker 12: a provider to work.
Speaker 7: With being a therapist yourself. Did you ever offer to
Speaker 7: give some referrals or anything like that or did she
Speaker 7: ask for any I can't remember. And you said that
Speaker 7: she continued to appear tired, correct, But other than appearing
Speaker 7: tired as the weeks went by, did you observe her
Speaker 7: and having any problem interacting with people or doing the
Speaker 7: typical behaviors that you would do at the events you
Speaker 7: would usually see are at.
Speaker 16: No.
Speaker 7: Did she appear to have any trouble doing day to
Speaker 7: day tasks or interacting with anyone, not that I saw.
Speaker 7: Did she ever tell you that she was depressed or suicidal?
Speaker 19: No?
Speaker 7: Did she ever tell you that she had thoughts of
Speaker 7: harming anyone else? Nor did her physical appearance change in
Speaker 7: any way, not that I noticed. When you would engage
Speaker 7: with her, have conversations with her, were they usually in
Speaker 7: person or text? Or both? It was a mix of both.
Speaker 7: And did you ever have trouble understanding her, either in
Speaker 7: person or in a text? Did she ever appear to
Speaker 7: have trouble understanding you?
Speaker 13: No.
Speaker 7: At some point in time, did you have dinner with
Speaker 7: Lindsay and a woman named Eron Renault sometime in November? Yes?
Speaker 7: And was that something that the three of you typically did? Yes?
Speaker 7: How often would you do that? Probably once every couple
Speaker 7: of months. Was this the first time you'd done that
Speaker 7: since Callen was born? I can't remember, okay? And what
Speaker 7: was Lindsay's demeanor during that dinner?
Speaker 12: She was engaged in conversation with us?
Speaker 7: Do you recall saying previously that she seemed normal. No,
Speaker 7: you don't recall saying that, not specifically. No, what about
Speaker 7: her speech pattern? Was there anything different about her speech pattern?
Speaker 12: No?
Speaker 7: What did you guys talk about during that dinner?
Speaker 12: I remember catching up as we usually did, you know,
Speaker 12: giving each other updates on, you know, what our kids
Speaker 12: had been up to, what we our families had been
Speaker 12: up to. And I also made it a point to
Speaker 12: check in with her about how her sleep was and
Speaker 12: how she had been feeling lately.
Speaker 7: And did she give you responses to those questions?
Speaker 9: She did?
Speaker 7: Did they make sense? The responses made sense? Did she
Speaker 7: what was What was the tone of this conversation? I'm
Speaker 7: not sure how to answer that question. Well, when you're
Speaker 7: asking her about how things are going with her sleep
Speaker 7: and other things and she's responding, is she does she
Speaker 7: seem negative and depressed about things? Does she seem hopeful
Speaker 7: about things?
Speaker 9: Like?
Speaker 7: What's the tone? I mean it was?
Speaker 12: It was a serious conversation. I was concerned and wanted
Speaker 12: to check in. It sounded like she had been able
Speaker 12: to connect with some providers, And I would say at
Speaker 12: that point, I remember her expressing feeling hopeful about the
Speaker 12: possibility that things could could start to get better.
Speaker 7: And during this conversation at dinner, did she ever mention
Speaker 7: that she had suicidal thoughts? Did she ever mention that
Speaker 7: she had homicidal thoughts?
Speaker 9: Now?
Speaker 7: Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices? Now?
Speaker 7: Did she ever tell you that she was having intrusive
Speaker 7: thoughts of her own?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 7: At any point in time while you're engaged with her,
Speaker 7: did it look like she was responding to something internally,
Speaker 7: like a voice or seeing something that wasn't there.
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 7: Other than having an issue with sleep, did she mention
Speaker 7: any other issues that.
Speaker 11: She was having?
Speaker 7: She mentioned feeling anxious. And after this dinner, did you
Speaker 7: next see her at Core's birthday party in January?
Speaker 16: Yes?
Speaker 7: And at that birthday party, did you see her interacting
Speaker 7: with other people, and you know, parents and children, as
Speaker 7: a mom would usually do at a birthday party. Yes?
Speaker 7: Did you interact with her yourself?
Speaker 9: I did?
Speaker 7: Did you notice anything different about her demeanor or her
Speaker 7: behavior at that party?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 7: Did you have a conversation with her briefly about sleep?
Speaker 7: I did? And was it you basically asking how the
Speaker 7: sleep issue was going?
Speaker 12: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was her response?
Speaker 12: She responded that things haven't gotten any better and that
Speaker 12: she feels like a zombie.
Speaker 7: Was there anything about her appearance or the way she
Speaker 7: was interacting or behaving that when you saw her you
Speaker 7: thought she looks like a zombie. She seemed tired. But
Speaker 7: there's a difference between being tired and looking like a zombie. Right,
Speaker 7: she didn't look like a zombie. No, And she was
Speaker 7: able to engage with you and the other parents there,
Speaker 7: engaged with her children and the other children. Correct, she was.
Speaker 7: And she recalls stating previously that at the party she
Speaker 7: seemed fine, and no, not specifically page eleven.
Speaker 18: How do you look at Hea then?
Speaker 7: And bottom line twenty four and then she's the top
Speaker 7: of age twelve. That fresh your memory as to a
Speaker 7: conversation you had with the police back in twenty twenty
Speaker 7: three where you said that she seemed fine at the party. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 7: I have another questions?
Speaker 19: Thank you?
Speaker 8: Great so money. Fair to say that you were obviously
Speaker 8: pretty good friends with Lindsey, Yes, And fair to say
Speaker 8: that in that regard you had occasion to observe objectively
Speaker 8: things like she looked tired, she was complaining that she
Speaker 8: was tired, Yes, said that she was anxious. Yes, I
Speaker 8: told you that at one point towards the end of
Speaker 8: time frame into January that she felt like a zombie.
Speaker 9: Correct? Yes, did you.
Speaker 8: Ask her any questions like the district attorney was asking,
Speaker 8: Did you ask her, well, what are your symptoms?
Speaker 9: And what do you feel like? And what do you
Speaker 9: you know?
Speaker 8: Is there anything that you can tell me about how
Speaker 8: you feel?
Speaker 9: Did you probe in that regard?
Speaker 12: I don't remember probing about specific symptoms now.
Speaker 8: So in other words, your friends and you and Aaron
Speaker 8: and Lindsey were out to dinner or lunch and.
Speaker 9: You're trying to have a good time, right, Yes?
Speaker 8: How was she as a mother to your observations as
Speaker 8: far as taking care of her kids, being happy with
Speaker 8: the kids.
Speaker 9: Did she not like her kids? What were your observations?
Speaker 12: She loved her kids. She was warm, kind, consistent, loving.
Speaker 8: And you actually were summons to be here today by
Speaker 8: the District Attorney's office. Correct, I was, And you actually
Speaker 8: were interviewed by the state police. That's what she was
Speaker 8: questioning you about page eleven and page twelve.
Speaker 9: It was a recorded interview and things of that nature.
Speaker 8: Right, Yes, would you agree with me that although she
Speaker 8: may not have been telling you that she was seeing
Speaker 8: something that wasn't there or hearing voices or drooling or
Speaker 8: acting in some unusual fashion while you guys were out
Speaker 8: having lunch. She did express to you that she was
Speaker 8: having some difficulty.
Speaker 9: Is correct?
Speaker 7: She expressed that she was having difficulty. Yes.
Speaker 8: And would you say, knowing lindsay as you did, that
Speaker 8: she was a type that was not really a complainer.
Speaker 8: She would not try to be a downer when you're
Speaker 8: out to lunch and having a good time with your
Speaker 8: friends and complain.
Speaker 9: About her symptoms.
Speaker 8: Now, but she did tell you that she was somewhat
Speaker 8: hopeful because she was seeing healthcare providers.
Speaker 7: Yes.
Speaker 8: And in one of the things that they had asked
Speaker 8: you about, fair to say that when you talk to
Speaker 8: the police, you told them that you had spent a
Speaker 8: lot of time chatting about over this period of time,
Speaker 8: that she had been having a lot of trouble, a
Speaker 8: lot of trouble sleeping in that she referenced the postpartum
Speaker 8: period right. Yes, And when you were talking to the
Speaker 8: police the troopers did they try to divert you? Did
Speaker 8: you feel that they were trying to get what your
Speaker 8: observations were or want you to focus on their questions
Speaker 8: when they were questioning you could.
Speaker 9: You know, it's a bad question. It's a bad question.
Speaker 9: I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: But nevertheless, you actually told them that you had been
Speaker 8: in touch with her. You've been to the.
Speaker 7: House, right, I had been in touch with her yet, Yeah.
Speaker 9: And you knew Patrick. Yes.
Speaker 8: Other than socializing with your friends and with erin going
Speaker 8: out to lunches, you guys would also text correct yes,
Speaker 8: and that's a way of keeping in touch with each other.
Speaker 8: And she would respond to your inquiries about fun things
Speaker 8: and about kids.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 8: But also on occasion you were concerned about her and
Speaker 8: you'd ask her how she's doing right, Yes, And when
Speaker 8: you would ask her those things, she would tell you,
Speaker 8: for example, that she didn't know what medications were doing
Speaker 8: to her. But she in fact mentioned to you that
Speaker 8: the medications did not appear as though they were helping,
Speaker 8: and she still wasn't able to get any sleep. And further,
Speaker 8: in the statements that you gave to the police when
Speaker 8: they were asking you questions about your observations, she did
Speaker 8: indicate on a couple of occasions that she had obtained
Speaker 8: a therapist and a prescriber, and she would reference her
Speaker 8: relationship with Pat and tell you that Pat's great things
Speaker 8: like that right, you said, yes, I'm sorry the door closed.
Speaker 8: So in those occasions, did she ever complain about Pat?
Speaker 8: Would they seem to be getting along pretty good?
Speaker 7: They seemed to be getting along great.
Speaker 9: Was he supportive to your observations of her?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 8: Then when you went out to the other dinner, did
Speaker 8: you indicate to the police that in that conversation that
Speaker 8: her mother knows everything? As she told you, my mom
Speaker 8: knows everything and she's working it out as far as
Speaker 8: the therapist and the drugs. Correct, Yes, And you still
Speaker 8: felt that it was readily apparent that she was struggling right, yes,
Speaker 8: still having difficulty sleeping and being anxious right, yes?
Speaker 9: And as a friend, you were concerned, right, I was concerned.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 8: Now, one of the questions Da had asked you was
Speaker 8: that she was supposed to go back to work, and
Speaker 8: that she indicated that she had canceled that day to
Speaker 8: go back to work because she still wasn't sleeping well.
Speaker 9: Is that right she had?
Speaker 8: Yes, And those were her words, that she canceled going
Speaker 8: back to work because she.
Speaker 9: Still wasn't sleeping well.
Speaker 7: Yes.
Speaker 8: Did she ever talk to you about work? Did she
Speaker 8: seem to like her job as a labor and delivery nurse.
Speaker 7: She loved it as far as I knew.
Speaker 9: And then you were at Korra's birthday Patty in January.
Speaker 9: Is that correct?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 8: And that was the one that was at the trampoline
Speaker 8: pact right, Yes, and it was that time, and that
Speaker 8: would have been in January of twenty three. I believe
Speaker 8: that it was in that time that you were concerned
Speaker 8: and you said, hey, are you getting any sleep?
Speaker 9: And she was like, no, I feel like a zombie?
Speaker 9: Is what her words were. Correct? Yes, is that the
Speaker 9: last time you saw her?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 9: Thank you?
Speaker 2: Hey, redirect, all right, thank you. Let me step down here, Council.
Speaker 2: Why don't we take a brief recess at this time,
Speaker 2: so we're gonna take the morning recess at this point, all.
Speaker 6: Rights, Council.
Speaker 2: Any thing we need to talk about before the break, thank.
Speaker 6: You, So we'll be in recessing this time.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 18: You're right up.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of the record, we returned back to
Speaker 3: the matter pressus, lindsay, is a present including the jury,
Speaker 3: I mean, including the defendant excluding the jury?
Speaker 2: All right, counsel ready for the jury? Yes, all right,
Speaker 2: I see it said by just very briefly.
Speaker 15: All right, of course, now it's says, please be see it.
Speaker 3: You run up for the purpose of the record. We
Speaker 3: returned back to the trial at Commonwealth for us as
Speaker 3: Lindsay Cuncy. All parties are present, including the defendant and
Speaker 3: including the eighteen jurors.
Speaker 5: All right, thank you came, well call you next witness,
Speaker 5: please thank you.
Speaker 7: Kama calls Amy Bevins.
Speaker 15: It's not right here is writing good clerically?
Speaker 9: Please you right?
Speaker 6: Kay, afternoon.
Speaker 2: I'd ask you to speaking of that microphone, keep your
Speaker 2: voice up if you could.
Speaker 6: Okay, oh God, spray.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Good afternoon, Good afternoon. Can you please stay
Speaker 7: and spell your name for the record.
Speaker 19: Amy Bevans A M, Y V, E V I N S.
Speaker 7: And your date of birth eight ninety. Do you live
Speaker 7: in Connecticut?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 7: What do you do for work?
Speaker 28: I'm a licensed behavior analyst, but I specialize primarily in
Speaker 28: early intervention for young children with autism.
Speaker 7: You could just keep your voice up a little bit,
Speaker 7: maybe come a little forward to the mic. How long
Speaker 7: have you been doing that?
Speaker 19: Six years?
Speaker 28: I was a special education teacher before that for a
Speaker 28: long time as well.
Speaker 7: Do you know Lindsay Clancy, Yes, how do you know her?
Speaker 28: We have been friends for almost twenty nine years.
Speaker 7: So you met her when you were children.
Speaker 12: Yes?
Speaker 7: Did you go to school together up.
Speaker 28: Elementary school and after that all the way up through
Speaker 28: middle school and high school as well?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 7: And did you keep in touch with Lindsay when you
Speaker 7: went off to college? Yes, I'm assuming you didn't go
Speaker 7: to the same college right now? Do you know where Lindsay.
Speaker 19: Went Quinnipiac University?
Speaker 7: And how did you keep in touch.
Speaker 28: Through tax phone calls? We visited each other at each
Speaker 28: other's campuses.
Speaker 7: And then when Lindsay went to nursing school, did you
Speaker 7: still stay in touch at that point in time?
Speaker 19: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how did you do that the same way like
Speaker 7: text visits?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 28: I also lived in Boston at the same time that
Speaker 28: she was in nursing school up in Boston.
Speaker 7: So was your contact more frequent while she was in
Speaker 7: nursing school versus when she was in college.
Speaker 28: I can't remember the exact amount of contact, but I
Speaker 28: would say they were always in contact together.
Speaker 19: Yes, Okay.
Speaker 7: While Ms Clancy was in nursing school, did she ever
Speaker 7: tell you that she was taking some mental health medication
Speaker 7: I can't recall. Did she ever tell you that she
Speaker 7: was struggling with anxiety or anything like that while in
Speaker 7: nursing school.
Speaker 19: Nothing that I can recall.
Speaker 7: And after she was finished with nursing school, did the
Speaker 7: two of you still remain in touch?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how often would you see her?
Speaker 28: I moved back home to Connecticut, so whenever we were
Speaker 28: she was able to visit home, we would stay in Dutch.
Speaker 28: I traveled to Boston some like, not very frequently, but
Speaker 28: I would visit her there as well.
Speaker 7: And did you have a text chain going between the
Speaker 7: two of you?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And did you also have a group text with other
Speaker 7: friends from Connecticut that you both grew up with that
Speaker 7: you would participate in.
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how often would you text with Lindsay?
Speaker 19: Pretty frequently.
Speaker 28: It depended on I think the point in life that
Speaker 28: we were at, but I would say there was regular communication.
Speaker 7: And growing up with Lindsay and knowing her into adulthood,
Speaker 7: how would you have just how would you describe her
Speaker 7: general demeanor?
Speaker 4: She was.
Speaker 28: Pretty a calm person, you know, she was able, She
Speaker 28: was nice and had a veryly calm approach to herself.
Speaker 7: And during that time that you knew her and would
Speaker 7: interact with her, did you ever notice any changes in
Speaker 7: her pattern of speech or rate of speech. No, she
Speaker 7: pretty consistent in her behavior and speech patterns throughout the
Speaker 7: years that you knew her.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 7: After Mss Clancy had Cora, were you still in contact
Speaker 7: with her at that time?
Speaker 19: Yes?
Speaker 7: And just to kind of get it out of the way.
Speaker 7: Were you in contact with her all the way up
Speaker 7: through January of twenty twenty three?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And so after she had Cora, did you notice any
Speaker 7: changes in her demeanor?
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 7: Did you notice any changes in her behavior no? Did
Speaker 7: you notice any changes in her speech patterns?
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 7: After she had Dawson, did she talk to you about
Speaker 7: that delivery and how that went?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 28: And what did she tell you about that that was
Speaker 28: more of a difficult delivery than the one she had
Speaker 28: with Cora, that she would maybe need to take some
Speaker 28: time to recover prior to thinking about having a third child.
Speaker 7: And during that time after she had Dawson, did you
Speaker 7: notice any changes in her behavior now or her demeanor now,
Speaker 7: her speech pattern now? Was there anything about your interactions
Speaker 7: with Lindsay during that time that caused you to have
Speaker 7: concern about her harming herself or someone else?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 7: And then after she gave birth to Callen, did you
Speaker 7: notice a change in her demeanor at that time, no,
Speaker 7: or her behavior or rate of speech. Now, did you
Speaker 7: see her in Connecticut in November of twenty twenty two?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: And why did you see her than what was happening?
Speaker 19: She had traveled down to Connecticut.
Speaker 28: We had gotten together as a group to go out
Speaker 28: to breakfast.
Speaker 7: And had she come to Connecticut alone or with her
Speaker 7: family alone?
Speaker 19: I believe at that time?
Speaker 7: And you said you went out to breakfast, Yes, was
Speaker 7: this with that whole group of friends and spouses and
Speaker 7: everyone that kept in contact from Connecticut?
Speaker 28: Yes, there was a group of us there that had
Speaker 28: all remained friends.
Speaker 7: Did you notice anything about her demeanor or behavior at
Speaker 7: that breakfast in November of twenty twenty two that caused
Speaker 7: you concern or was different than her typical behavior?
Speaker 16: Now?
Speaker 7: Did you have some text conversations about in January of
Speaker 7: twenty twenty three about some issues that Lindsay was having. Yes,
Speaker 7: And if you recall when those messages started.
Speaker 28: I don't recall the exact date of the messages, but
Speaker 28: it was only I believe, one night.
Speaker 7: And in terms of what happened on January twenty fourth,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty three, how close in time was it to
Speaker 7: that can you repeat the question. So, in terms of
Speaker 7: January twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, when the children were killed,
Speaker 7: how close in time were your text messages to that incident?
Speaker 19: Only a few days?
Speaker 13: Okay?
Speaker 7: And what was that text conversation?
Speaker 19: She had shared that she.
Speaker 28: Had been taking a medication that caused her to have
Speaker 28: some dark thoughts, but that she was going to or
Speaker 28: had been weaning like tapering off that medication and was
Speaker 28: trialing new ones that would remove those side effects and
Speaker 28: be more helpful in therapeutic to what she didd.
Speaker 7: Did she tell you what those dark thoughts were?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 7: What was the tone of the conversation?
Speaker 11: Hopeful?
Speaker 19: I would categorize it.
Speaker 28: I remember it being something where there was conveying of hope,
Speaker 28: and then it was going to be a you know,
Speaker 28: we were moving on a positive direction.
Speaker 7: So basically she would it be fair to say that
Speaker 7: Lindsay was telling you that she'd had some side effects
Speaker 7: in some dark thoughts because of medication, but was weaning
Speaker 7: off of those and moving on to something else that
Speaker 7: would hopefully help her. Yes, did she ever express at
Speaker 7: any point that she wanted to harm herself?
Speaker 16: Now?
Speaker 7: Did she ever express that she wanted to harm the children. No,
Speaker 7: did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices? No,
Speaker 7: other than saying that she had had some bad thoughts,
Speaker 7: did she say anything else that was concerning in that conversation.
Speaker 7: Now want to direct your attention to March of twenty
Speaker 7: twenty three. Did you visit Mss Clancy while she was
Speaker 7: at the Spalding Rehabilitation Facility?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how was that arranged?
Speaker 28: At the request of one of her family members who
Speaker 28: reached out to see if I would.
Speaker 19: Like to come visit.
Speaker 7: And you traveled to Massachusetts and visited Lindsay at the
Speaker 7: Spalding rehab Center Is that right?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what did you do there with Lindsay that day?
Speaker 28: We made small talk, We played UNO.
Speaker 11: It was.
Speaker 19: A pretty basic visit.
Speaker 7: When you say you you made small talk, what did
Speaker 7: she talk about?
Speaker 28: I remember her asking about my daughter. I remember her
Speaker 28: asking about any updates to life events for our friends.
Speaker 28: We talked about some hobbies that she was doing while Spalding,
Speaker 28: and then played a game.
Speaker 7: Do you remember what hobbies she was doing at Spalding?
Speaker 19: I can't recall specifically.
Speaker 9: Now.
Speaker 7: At any point in time did she mention the death
Speaker 7: of her children? No, at any point in time, did
Speaker 7: she break down in tears and cry about her children? Now?
Speaker 7: What was her affect during that meeting?
Speaker 28: It I don't remember exactly. Neutral, I would say.
Speaker 7: Did she attempt at any point to harm herself?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 7: Did she ask you for help in harming herself?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 7: Did she talk about Cora Dawson or Callen at all?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 7: And nothing further?
Speaker 8: Thank you, it's right, that's no, you're nervous. Don't be okay,
Speaker 8: you guys, go back how far?
Speaker 19: Almost twenty nine years?
Speaker 8: And over those twenty nine years knowing lindsay, when you
Speaker 8: guys were in grammar school, I guess in high school,
Speaker 8: and then you went off to college and you had
Speaker 8: your families and your marriages. Tell us what your opinion
Speaker 8: was of her as a person.
Speaker 19: I knew her as a good person, a good friend,
Speaker 19: a good mom.
Speaker 8: And you had occasion to see her with her kids
Speaker 8: and how she acted with your kids Korra.
Speaker 9: Up till Callen.
Speaker 12: Yes?
Speaker 8: And did you ever observe anything out of the ordinary?
Speaker 8: Did she appear to be a loving person and taking
Speaker 8: care of her kids?
Speaker 28: I never saw anything out of the ordinary.
Speaker 8: Distic attorney asked you about the visit that you had
Speaker 8: when you were good enough to visit with her Spalding,
Speaker 8: And this was when in March of twenty three, Yes.
Speaker 9: And arrangements had to be made for you to visit
Speaker 9: with her.
Speaker 8: You had to get approval, and whether you know or not,
Speaker 8: I mean I had to kind of help you out
Speaker 8: a little bit trying to get through the red tape
Speaker 8: to get in there this year long with her family
Speaker 8: approval and that type of thing.
Speaker 19: Right, I don't recall any of that.
Speaker 9: But you were able to get in, yes, to visit
Speaker 9: with her.
Speaker 8: And this would have been in the beginning of match,
Speaker 8: if you know, the middle of March the end.
Speaker 19: I don't recall the sacks okay time.
Speaker 8: Was she able to walk around and ambulate or was
Speaker 8: she in a wheelchair or what was her condition?
Speaker 9: Was she in bed?
Speaker 19: She was in a wheelchair, she was sitting up the
Speaker 19: entire visit.
Speaker 8: Did you ask her about why she was in the
Speaker 8: wheelchair and anything like that? No, you knew that she
Speaker 8: had been in the hospital from January twenty fourth, right, yes,
Speaker 8: And you knew that your friend had been charged by
Speaker 8: the police and had killed her.
Speaker 9: Three beautiful children.
Speaker 13: Right.
Speaker 8: Yes, that was a bit of an awkward, uncomfortable topic.
Speaker 9: Wasn't it.
Speaker 19: I think it would be for anybody.
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, And the district attorney asked you whether or
Speaker 8: not she cried, and whether or not she told you
Speaker 8: about her children and anything to do with her children
Speaker 8: or that incident.
Speaker 9: You both basically stayed away from that entire subject, right.
Speaker 28: I remember also being told not to bring that up specifically,
Speaker 28: which at the time I would like I figured that
Speaker 28: that could be due to the recommendation of mental health providers, etc.
Speaker 19: Who were treating her, right and who told you that
Speaker 19: her sister.
Speaker 8: Now, how long did you visit with hers?
Speaker 19: Maybe thirty to forty five minutes.
Speaker 9: That's all they have.
Speaker 8: I went, did you guys have a group get together
Speaker 8: in December of twenty twenty two?
Speaker 9: If you recall, I don't recall.
Speaker 8: Do you recall seeing her after Thanksgiving around that time
Speaker 8: frame in December of twenty two?
Speaker 19: I don't recall doing.
Speaker 9: Now do you recall.
Speaker 8: Having conversations with her around that time frame, which would
Speaker 8: be in December of twenty twenty two, that she was
Speaker 8: talking to you about medications and asking you questions about
Speaker 8: particular medication.
Speaker 28: I don't recall the exact time frame of those conversations.
Speaker 8: Okay, you were summons here today by the DA's office.
Speaker 9: Is that correct?
Speaker 18: Yes?
Speaker 8: You were also on my witness list as well. Right, yes,
Speaker 8: And when I ask you about the conversations, the reason
Speaker 8: is you were questioned by the state police back in
Speaker 8: January of twenty three.
Speaker 9: Do you remember that?
Speaker 13: Yes, And one of.
Speaker 8: The troopers had asked you.
Speaker 9: Whether or not.
Speaker 8: You had any conversations with Lindsey, your friend about medications,
Speaker 8: and you indicated that.
Speaker 9: And I quote page twelve.
Speaker 8: She knows that I'm pretty open about mental health, that
Speaker 8: I'm a big advocate of mental health. And she asked
Speaker 8: me if I knew, like you know, if I had
Speaker 8: tried a medication. Do you remember saying that?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 9: Okay?
Speaker 8: Does that refresh your memory at all as too? Approximately
Speaker 8: what time when that was? Would that had been in
Speaker 8: December of twenty two after Thanksgiving?
Speaker 16: I don't know.
Speaker 28: I still don't recall the exact time, but I do
Speaker 28: remember that being a conversation.
Speaker 11: That we had.
Speaker 9: Okay. Do you remember where you had the conversation?
Speaker 19: It was over tax meassage?
Speaker 9: Okay.
Speaker 8: Do you recall her asking you what your experience was
Speaker 8: because you had some knowledge of medications?
Speaker 9: Correct, as a patient okay.
Speaker 8: And as a result of that and being close and
Speaker 8: good friends, that she had asked you what your experience
Speaker 8: was and again it's page thirteen, and she would say,
Speaker 8: how was your experience?
Speaker 9: Did you ever take this? What was your experience with this?
Speaker 9: That type of thing?
Speaker 8: Do you remember that that conversation.
Speaker 19: I don't recall this specific conversation.
Speaker 9: Do you recall the medication that she asked you about?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 9: What was that?
Speaker 19: I remember it being laxapro Do.
Speaker 8: You recall in your text message exchange that she had
Speaker 8: asked you about or told you about some of the
Speaker 8: medications that she was taking, and that there were some
Speaker 8: difficulties with it.
Speaker 19: Yes.
Speaker 8: Do you remember that she had asked you whether or
Speaker 8: not you had noted or if you were aware of
Speaker 8: any side effects of medications?
Speaker 19: I don't recall.
Speaker 8: And after those text threads, and with that understanding, being
Speaker 8: as close to Lindsay as you were, she then confided
Speaker 8: in you that she was having dark thoughts, as I
Speaker 8: think was the expression.
Speaker 28: That was a long time after the conversation that we
Speaker 28: had had about the medication. I do remember that being
Speaker 28: the first time I had heard any concern around her
Speaker 28: mental health up until that point.
Speaker 9: Okay, what point was that if you remember, can.
Speaker 19: You restate the question?
Speaker 15: Sure?
Speaker 9: Let me ask it this way.
Speaker 8: When she told you that she was having problems or
Speaker 8: difficulties with the medication, and she was telling you that
Speaker 8: she was having dark thoughts?
Speaker 9: Do you remember when that was.
Speaker 19: Towards the end of January twenty twenty three?
Speaker 8: Okay, do you remember was that in person or was
Speaker 8: that a message?
Speaker 9: Text message?
Speaker 19: Over text message?
Speaker 8: Did she explicated? Did she explain what the dark thoughts were?
Speaker 19: No?
Speaker 8: And the next time you saw her after that was
Speaker 8: at the hospital rehab correct?
Speaker 9: Yes, thank you man, it's all hit.
Speaker 5: All right, Thank you man, may step down, come off.
Speaker 7: Calls Christopher Clancy, this is my water.
Speaker 13: Okay, good afternoon, sir, good afternoon, A right, thank you.
Speaker 19: Good afternoon.
Speaker 7: Can you please state and spell your name for the record.
Speaker 13: Say that again. I'm sorry.
Speaker 7: Could you please state and spell your name for the record.
Speaker 13: Yes, Christopher William Clancy C H R I S T
Speaker 13: O P H E R W C L A N
Speaker 13: C Y.
Speaker 7: And what's your date of birth?
Speaker 13: Seven six sixty one.
Speaker 7: Where do you live Situate, mass And do you work?
Speaker 9: Uh?
Speaker 13: No, I'm retired.
Speaker 7: What did you do before you retired plumbing contractor. Is
Speaker 7: Patrick Clancy your son?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: When did you first meet Lindsay Clancy?
Speaker 13: I don't know what the yea was, but I believe
Speaker 13: I met her for the first time at my at
Speaker 13: the cottage and hall that was my parents' house, and
Speaker 13: I believe that's when I met a. I think you
Speaker 13: brought it on.
Speaker 7: That was that before or after that she and Patrick
Speaker 7: had gotten engaged. That was before and eventually they got
Speaker 7: engaged and got married correct, correct, and had three children? Correct?
Speaker 9: Correct.
Speaker 7: So I want to direct your attention to the time
Speaker 7: frame after Callen was born in May of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 7: Did you have a chance to observe Lindsay interact with Callen?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was Lindsay like with Callen?
Speaker 13: She was very mothering?
Speaker 7: And was she detective?
Speaker 13: I would say yes, like any mother would be.
Speaker 7: Do you recall describing her previously as very protective of him?
Speaker 13: I would say that she was very protective of him.
Speaker 7: Would she in terms of how protective she was of
Speaker 7: Callen versus Dawson and Cora? Was she more less or
Speaker 7: the same?
Speaker 13: I would say she was more of the same When
Speaker 13: the babies were little, you know, when the babies were young,
Speaker 13: so was.
Speaker 7: That something typical when she would have one of the
Speaker 7: children should be very protective when they were first born.
Speaker 13: Yes, I think that's like any of the mother though.
Speaker 7: And how often would you see the family?
Speaker 13: We saw them regularly. They lived not too far from us.
Speaker 13: They lived in Weymouth first and we saw them.
Speaker 7: Regularly, and then eventually they moved to Duxbury. Yes, And
Speaker 7: directing your attention to the time frame between November sixth teenth,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty two and Thanksgiving of that year, did you
Speaker 7: see them at your house?
Speaker 13: I think we were. I think they did come up
Speaker 13: to our house one time once, might have been a
Speaker 13: Saturday or Sunday.
Speaker 7: And why did they come over that day?
Speaker 13: I think they just came over to say hi?
Speaker 7: And what was the what was Lindsay's demeanor that day?
Speaker 13: Very good?
Speaker 7: And was there any difference in her behavior or speech
Speaker 7: pattern than what you've seen with her previously?
Speaker 9: Not that day?
Speaker 7: And how was that visit?
Speaker 13: Very good?
Speaker 7: Did you then see them at or around Thanksgiving?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 13: We did?
Speaker 7: And where was that?
Speaker 13: That was at my daughter Laura's house Hamilton.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry I didn't be in the Hamilton And did
Speaker 7: you interact with Lindsay that day. Yes, what was her
Speaker 7: demeanor that day?
Speaker 13: Seemed a little how do you say it? Let me
Speaker 13: think for a minute. She seemed quiet. She seemed quiet.
Speaker 7: And did she seem to interact with everyone there as
Speaker 7: she normally would?
Speaker 13: Yeah, she was very close with my daughters and her
Speaker 13: sister in law.
Speaker 7: Do you recall them wearing coordinating shirts that day?
Speaker 13: I think so.
Speaker 7: And during dinner that day, did you make observations of
Speaker 7: Lindsey getting the kids settled down for dinner?
Speaker 13: I did?
Speaker 7: And did you see her interact with Dawson?
Speaker 13: Yes? I did?
Speaker 7: And can you describe that interaction please?
Speaker 13: She was getting a little frustrated. Dawson was being a
Speaker 13: little silly and she was trying to get them to
Speaker 13: sit down, and she was just a little bit getting
Speaker 13: frustrated with them, and I noticed it, so I got
Speaker 13: up to help her.
Speaker 7: And when you saw her getting frustrated with him, did
Speaker 7: you see her do something to get him seated?
Speaker 13: She took him by the arm to get him seated.
Speaker 13: It wasn't anything crazy.
Speaker 7: It's not like she hit him or anything like that. No,
Speaker 7: she just took his arm and guided him to the seat.
Speaker 7: Is correct?
Speaker 9: Correct?
Speaker 7: But you could see that she was frustrated. I could,
Speaker 7: and so you stepped in to help her?
Speaker 13: Right? Correct?
Speaker 7: And what did you do to help?
Speaker 13: I got a replate. I believe there were a lot
Speaker 13: of people, so it was just a little chaotic.
Speaker 7: Now directing your attention to the weekend before Christmas twenty
Speaker 7: twenty two. Did you stop by their home that weekend?
Speaker 13: I believe we did.
Speaker 18: Yeah?
Speaker 7: And who was there?
Speaker 13: Her parents?
Speaker 7: So it would be Lindsay's parents, Lindsay Patrick, and the kids.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 7: And were you by yourself or.
Speaker 13: With your wife? I was with my wife.
Speaker 7: And was there a specific point for everyone stopping by
Speaker 7: and gathering that day?
Speaker 13: Uh? I don't I don't.
Speaker 7: Recall that, Okay, were you and your wife checking in
Speaker 7: or helping out that day?
Speaker 13: We might have just been going down to check on things.
Speaker 7: Did you know that there were some struggles going on
Speaker 7: at that point?
Speaker 13: I did?
Speaker 7: And did you know that Lindsay was specifically Lindsay was
Speaker 7: having some struggles at that point?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: Did you stop by again a few nights before Christmas?
Speaker 23: Uh?
Speaker 13: I thought that's the night you were talking about. Yes,
Speaker 13: I guess we did.
Speaker 7: And when you stopped by the night before Christmas, do
Speaker 7: you recall who was there that day?
Speaker 13: I think the same people, but I'm not positive.
Speaker 7: So Lindsay's parents, Lindsay Patrick, and the kids.
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was Lindsay's demeanor that day?
Speaker 13: It was okay, it wasn't terrible.
Speaker 7: Do you recall testifying previously and saying that she seemed
Speaker 7: like she was in good spirits?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: Would that be accurate?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And when you were there at the house that day,
Speaker 7: did you make plans for the following day for Christmas Day?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 13: We made plans to go to Mass.
Speaker 7: And who was going to go to Mass?
Speaker 13: Lindsay Patrick, the kids, my wife Sue and me?
Speaker 7: And did you all well straight that the following day
Speaker 7: on Christmas? Did you go over to Lindsay's home before
Speaker 7: going to Mass?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: Okay, did you all gather for breakfast?
Speaker 13: I don't recall.
Speaker 7: And giving me approach on page thirty three if you
Speaker 7: even just free to yourself lies.
Speaker 13: And then okay, all right?
Speaker 7: Is that?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: So did you for breakfast?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how was Lindsay's demeanor that day?
Speaker 13: It was good. She looked beautiful, she had a beautiful
Speaker 13: dress on.
Speaker 7: And do you recall saying previously she seemed very happy?
Speaker 13: That day, Yes, she did.
Speaker 7: And after breakfast, did did everyone go to church as planned?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how are the children in church?
Speaker 13: Fantastic?
Speaker 7: Very well? Behaved, very well. And then after church did
Speaker 7: you have a conversation with Lindsay outside of the church?
Speaker 13: I think we talked a little bit. I don't remember
Speaker 13: what we said. We were going on separate ways.
Speaker 7: Do you recall saying previously that Lindsay said she was
Speaker 7: glad she came and she really loved it.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 7: What was her demeanor while she was engaging with you
Speaker 7: after mass?
Speaker 13: She was quiet. She said that she liked the mass
Speaker 13: and she was really happy that she went.
Speaker 7: And do you recall saying before that, Strit that do
Speaker 7: you recall after that conversation you guys hunt each other
Speaker 7: and went your separate ways?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 7: Did you see the family again after Christmas?
Speaker 13: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Speaker 7: Did you go to Kor's birthday party?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: Was it more of a kid's gathering at a trampoline place.
Speaker 13: That's what I heard. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 7: Did you have plans to see them Tuesday, January twenty fourth,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 13: No.
Speaker 7: Do you recall saying previously that there were plans to
Speaker 7: get together for dinner that night, but they changed because
Speaker 7: your wife had plans with her brother.
Speaker 13: No, we never had plans to go with that Tuesday night.
Speaker 13: They asked us to come to the Tuesday night, but
Speaker 13: we already had plans with Sue's sister Joan.
Speaker 7: Okay, So they weren't set plans. But you were asked
Speaker 7: to come to their house that night. Yeah, okay, and
Speaker 7: then you couldn't couldn't go because you had other plans.
Speaker 13: Right, We're going to make it for Friday.
Speaker 7: Thank you for clarifying that. In terms of your interaction
Speaker 7: with Lindsay and Patrick and the kids, while there were
Speaker 7: some struggles going on, did you and your wife offer
Speaker 7: to take the kids to your house overnight to kind
Speaker 7: of give them a break?
Speaker 13: I did mention that to my son.
Speaker 7: And was that offered? Declined?
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 7: And going back to Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two, when
Speaker 7: you were interacting with Lindsay, I think you you previously
Speaker 7: said that she her demeanor was good, she was quiet.
Speaker 7: Did you also say at one point she had a
Speaker 7: little blankness to her at times.
Speaker 13: She seemed two at times.
Speaker 7: And can you tell us like what that was? Just
Speaker 7: like a stare kind of staring off into the distance, distracted, No.
Speaker 13: Just not totally interacting, you know, it's sort of okay.
Speaker 7: So so at some points almost.
Speaker 13: Like nervous, kind of like nerves almost just like you know,
Speaker 13: something like that.
Speaker 7: Okay, So at some points she was staring a little bit,
Speaker 7: seemed a little nervous, but then in other times she
Speaker 7: was interacting with everyone as she normally would pretty much.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 7: You mentioned earlier when you were talking about Lindsay having
Speaker 7: a little bit of difficulty getting Dawson seated at Thanksgiving
Speaker 7: that he was being a little silly. Was that typical
Speaker 7: for him to behave in that way?
Speaker 13: Yeah, he was a handful, but he was good. He's
Speaker 13: a good boy.
Speaker 7: Going back to the night of January twenty fourth, twenty
Speaker 7: twenty three, at some point in time that night, did
Speaker 7: you get a phone call from Patrick On in January
Speaker 7: January twenty fourth, twenty twenty.
Speaker 13: Three, Yes, God, yes we did.
Speaker 7: And what was his demeanor during that call?
Speaker 13: Is this the night of the Yes, okay, yes.
Speaker 9: It was.
Speaker 13: It was terrible.
Speaker 7: And did you and your wife leave your home and
Speaker 7: head to the hospital to be with him?
Speaker 6: Yes, thank you, I'm sure you're ready.
Speaker 15: Thank you.
Speaker 8: Definitely, definitely, mister Clancy. Just a couple of questions. You
Speaker 8: were you were summonsed to be here by the DA
Speaker 8: is that correct?
Speaker 13: Correct?
Speaker 8: And you gave statements to whoever wanted statements.
Speaker 9: You were very cooperative with the investigation, is that right?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 8: And being as you obviously grandfather and father of Pat
Speaker 8: over the years from the time they were dating, engaged,
Speaker 8: married kids, you and your wife were pretty close with
Speaker 8: both of.
Speaker 9: Them, were you not?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 8: Do you have an opinion as to how Lindsay was
Speaker 8: as a mother that you could see.
Speaker 13: She was very, very good, She said them great, She
Speaker 13: did a lot of things with them. They did like
Speaker 13: the all American family.
Speaker 8: And justic attorney had asked you about Thanksgiving of twenty two,
Speaker 8: November sixteenth of twenty two, and she made reference I
Speaker 8: think you would responded that she appeared to be quiet,
Speaker 8: and then she used the term did you know about
Speaker 8: the struggles?
Speaker 9: Can you tell me what the struggles were? Do you
Speaker 9: know what she meant by that? I knew, Thank you, sir.
Speaker 8: I think I was asking you about the word the
Speaker 8: struggles and can you just tell the jury what the struggle?
Speaker 9: What was meant by the struggles?
Speaker 13: I knew she was having a hard time sleeping. I
Speaker 13: knew she just didn't feel well. I know she had
Speaker 13: gone to the emergency room and my where my wife
Speaker 13: was working those types of struggles.
Speaker 8: And just so for the obviously for the record, your
Speaker 8: wife would be Sue. Yes, and she's a nurse labor
Speaker 8: and delivery it south Shore.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 8: And did Lindsay confide to your knowledge, yes or no,
Speaker 8: to your wife about some of her issues as a
Speaker 8: result of which your wife referred her to a person
Speaker 8: to speak to.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 9: Do you know who that person was?
Speaker 13: I don't remember the person's name.
Speaker 8: Would that be the south Shore Perry Natle I think
Speaker 8: is what it's called.
Speaker 13: Yes.
Speaker 8: And understanding that you're the father in law, would you
Speaker 8: agree that the two of you, you and Lindsay had
Speaker 8: a pretty good relationship, Yes, very good. And you told
Speaker 8: us about November sixteenth, and then Thanksgiving of twenty two
Speaker 8: and then up until Christmas and then after Christmas and
Speaker 8: the timeframe actually right up to January twenty fourth. You
Speaker 8: guys were supposed to get together that night, right.
Speaker 13: Correct, Well, no, we weren't. We were asked to come
Speaker 13: to dinner that you.
Speaker 9: Had other plans.
Speaker 13: We had other plans.
Speaker 8: Okay, Justic Attorney asked you about on a number of
Speaker 8: occasions about the time at your home. I think it
Speaker 8: was on Thanksgiving when Dawson was acting a little rambunctious
Speaker 8: or silly, and that she guided him to his See
Speaker 8: your opinion of what you could observe.
Speaker 9: Did you believe that she was being abusive to him
Speaker 9: at all?
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 9: And you know her mother.
Speaker 8: And father as well, correct, And the four of you,
Speaker 8: the in laws from both sides, You and your wife.
Speaker 9: Sue, and Lindsay's.
Speaker 8: Mother and father both were all kind of pulling together
Speaker 8: to try to help this young couple out during that timeframe, right, Yes,
Speaker 8: And your son Patrick, he was very concerned about his wife,
Speaker 8: was he not? He was, and he confided in you
Speaker 8: were on a number of occasions. Yes, I'm sorry, sir,
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Come on, all right, thank you, sir, he said, down,
Speaker 2: thank you?
Speaker 6: Come well? Did I see you over here? Just scheduled the.
Speaker 2: Next witness for a couple of minutes, and we're going
Speaker 2: to break till two o'clock.
Speaker 5: So I'm going to ask you to be ready to
Speaker 5: come back here at two o'clock.
Speaker 2: Same instructions I've been giving you the whole time during
Speaker 2: the break, don't talk about this case.
Speaker 5: So anyway, don't do any research about this.
Speaker 2: Don't look into anything about this case or any similar cases.
Speaker 5: H and I'll see you at two o'clock if you
Speaker 5: have a nice break.
Speaker 2: So we'll be in recess on this matter till two o'clock.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of the For the purpose of the record,
Speaker 3: we returned back to the record for the and the
Speaker 3: matter of CommonWell for us as Lindsay Clancy. All Pott
Speaker 3: is a present, including this Clancy, excluding the jury.
Speaker 6: All right, Council be ready for the jury.
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, okay, all right, this.
Speaker 15: Course now session, please me see this.
Speaker 7: Good afternoon, you're on.
Speaker 3: For the purpose of the record, we returned back to
Speaker 3: the trial of Commonwealth for us as Lindsay Clancy. All
Speaker 3: parties are present, including the including a teen jers and.
Speaker 2: Thank you it was a jury. Good afternoon. We're going
Speaker 2: to return to the case at Tony Sprague.
Speaker 7: If you're on a como called Kyle Carney, good sir,
Speaker 7: excuse me?
Speaker 9: Sure?
Speaker 5: Hi, Good afternoon, sir, Yes, counsel, go ahead, thank.
Speaker 7: You, Good afternoon. Can you please stay and spell your
Speaker 7: name for the record.
Speaker 29: Kyle Karney O K Y O E C A R
Speaker 29: N E Y and your date of birth please July sixth,
Speaker 29: nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 7: And what town do you live in Duxbury? What do
Speaker 7: you do for work?
Speaker 25: Work in finance?
Speaker 7: And are you married?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: Who's your wife Sarah Carney? And you have children? Yes?
Speaker 7: Does your family or did your family know the Clancy family?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: And did you know them through your friendship with Patrick Clancy?
Speaker 25: Yes?
Speaker 7: When did you meet Patrick Clancy.
Speaker 25: Two thousand and nine and how did you meet We
Speaker 25: went to college together.
Speaker 7: And after going through college together, did you remain friends
Speaker 7: after school?
Speaker 25: Yes?
Speaker 7: And eventually did you end up living in Duxbury at
Speaker 7: the same time Patrick and his family lived in Duxbury?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: When did you meet Lindsay Clancy.
Speaker 25: Maybe twelve years ago?
Speaker 7: Did you meet them before they were married? Did you
Speaker 7: meet Lindsay before she married Patrick?
Speaker 25: Yes?
Speaker 7: Okay, and then obviously you knew them after they got
Speaker 7: married and as they had their children.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 7: How often would you see Patrick and his family while
Speaker 7: you were both living in.
Speaker 29: Duxbury maybe every other month?
Speaker 7: And would you interact with Lindsay Clancy during those gatherings?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was her typical demeanor?
Speaker 25: Kind caring.
Speaker 7: Did you ever see any changes, significant changes in her
Speaker 7: behavior or demeanor when you would interact with her?
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 7: Did you notice any changes in Lindsay Clancy after the
Speaker 7: birth of Cora or Dawson, No, directing your attention to
Speaker 7: after Callum Clancy was born. Did you interact with the
Speaker 7: Clancy family that summer?
Speaker 25: Yes?
Speaker 7: And how so.
Speaker 29: Beach dinners. It's hard to recall exactly.
Speaker 7: So you said beach dinners. Is that what you said?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: So basically family is gathering together at the beach, having dinner,
Speaker 7: interacting with each other.
Speaker 18: Is that right?
Speaker 25: Sure?
Speaker 7: How often would you do that during the summer of
Speaker 7: twenty twenty two?
Speaker 29: I couldn't tell you exactly more than once, Yeah, like
Speaker 29: at least monthly.
Speaker 7: Did you also go fishing with Patrick during that time?
Speaker 15: Yes?
Speaker 7: Over the summer of twenty twenty two, did you notice
Speaker 7: any differences in Lindsay Clancy's demeanor or behavior.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 7: Throughout the fall of twenty twenty two into the beginning
Speaker 7: of January twenty twenty three, would you see Patrick Clancy?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: How often did you see them again?
Speaker 6: Maybe?
Speaker 25: Once a month? Maybe?
Speaker 7: And directing your attention to Sunday, January twenty second, twenty
Speaker 7: twenty three, did you have a small gathering at your home?
Speaker 25: Yes, their family came over to my house.
Speaker 7: And when you say their family, are you talking about
Speaker 7: Patrick Clancy and Lindsay.
Speaker 25: Clancy and Cora and Dawson too.
Speaker 7: Callen didn't join them.
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: Was he home with Lindsay's parents?
Speaker 15: Yes?
Speaker 7: And what was the purpose of gathering that day?
Speaker 25: Socialize? It was a nice day out.
Speaker 29: I was having a fire to burn some brush in
Speaker 29: my backyard and thought it'd be nice to invite them
Speaker 29: to come over and get the kids out and enjoy
Speaker 29: a nice day.
Speaker 7: And what was Lindsay's demeanor that day?
Speaker 25: Is it quieter than normal?
Speaker 7: And do you recall saying previously that the weekend was
Speaker 7: fairly normal, that Lindsay had always been a little tough
Speaker 7: to get a beat on kind of quiet. But you
Speaker 7: were in the kitchen talking and it seemed normal.
Speaker 29: I mean, in the kitchen, we had a conversation and
Speaker 29: that was normal normal, Okay.
Speaker 7: Do you recall describing the day previously as a perfectly
Speaker 7: normal afternoon, really.
Speaker 15: Nice it was?
Speaker 30: It was a nice day, yeah, And so there was
Speaker 30: nothing out of the normal that happened that day in
Speaker 30: terms of Lindsay's behavior or demeanor.
Speaker 25: Her behavior demeanor appeared normal.
Speaker 7: Did you have any problems communicating with her when you
Speaker 7: had conversation in the kitchen?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 7: How long was the family there at your house that day?
Speaker 25: Maybe a few hours?
Speaker 7: And during that time I believe you described it previously
Speaker 7: as a normal, great day. Would that be accurate?
Speaker 9: Yes, thank you, it's rington. I have no questions. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 5: Fine, Thank you, sir. If you stip down, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 4: Call Andrew next business, Thank you, Anthidon, sir, thank you,
Speaker 4: Good afternoon, sir. Can you tell the jurors your first
Speaker 4: and last name, Andrew? Can you please spell your last
Speaker 4: name for the record, C h I A c h IO.
Speaker 4: And what do you do for work?
Speaker 17: I work for the state Police?
Speaker 4: And how long have you been with the state Police.
Speaker 16: Since December of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 4: And what's your current assignment.
Speaker 16: I work for the Plymouth County State Police Detective Unit.
Speaker 4: How long have you been with the State Police Detective
Speaker 4: Unit five years? And what's your current rank?
Speaker 9: Sodeant.
Speaker 4: I'm going to draw your attention back to January twenty
Speaker 4: fourth of the year twenty twenty three, were you still
Speaker 4: working for the State Police detective unit with the District
Speaker 4: Attorney's Office, then yes. And do you recall being called
Speaker 4: into an investigation in regards to an incident that had
Speaker 4: happened in the town of Duxbury on January twenty fourth,
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Were you assigned as the case officer for that investigation
Speaker 4: at that time? No, but you're aware that a number
Speaker 4: of the other troopers in your unit were all called
Speaker 4: out to do different parts of the investigation.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 4: Do you recall if you actually went first to forty
Speaker 4: seven Summer.
Speaker 17: Street, Yes, I did.
Speaker 4: Did were you quickly assigned to go someplace else and
Speaker 4: do some follow up investigation? And one of the places
Speaker 4: that you went on that night was the CVS in Kingston?
Speaker 7: Correct?
Speaker 9: Correct?
Speaker 4: That would have been at one eighty nine Summer Street.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 4: Why were you asked to go to the CBS in Kingston.
Speaker 17: To obtain surveillance video?
Speaker 4: And had you learned information that the one of the homeowners,
Speaker 4: the Patrick Clancy, might have visited that location earlier in
Speaker 4: the evening?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: And so when you got to the CBS, did you
Speaker 4: contact somebody in the store in order to try to
Speaker 4: determine whether there was surveillance. Yes, And did you speak
Speaker 4: with an employee there? Do you recall who you spoke.
Speaker 16: To, Angela Crouse here's the manager.
Speaker 4: Were you able to get access to the surveillance at
Speaker 4: that time?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: And were you able to observe the time on the
Speaker 4: surveillance at the store as it pertains to real time?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: So tell us how you determine whether the time was accurate.
Speaker 16: We look at the live feed and I compare it
Speaker 16: with my cell.
Speaker 4: Phone, and your cell phone is a department it should
Speaker 4: cell phone?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Did you notice any discrepancies in the time stamps?
Speaker 9: I did not.
Speaker 4: And after viewing the video surveillance there at CVS, were
Speaker 4: you able to see Patrick Clancy in the store at CVS?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 4: And fair to say you were able to track that
Speaker 4: he arrived at seventeen thirty two thirty two and exited
Speaker 4: the store at seventeen thirty seven zero eight. Yes, at
Speaker 4: some point where you also asked to look for surveillance
Speaker 4: at a different location. I was what was the second location, the.
Speaker 17: Three V restaurant?
Speaker 4: And where is that located in Plymouth? And fair to
Speaker 4: say it's the address there's ten Cordage Park Circle. Yes,
Speaker 4: what is three V a restaurant, okay, And why did
Speaker 4: you go there surveillance video? Again, based on information that
Speaker 4: you had available to you, did you believe that Patrick
Speaker 4: Clancy had visited that location earlier in the evening of
Speaker 4: January twenty fourth, Yes, And when you went to the
Speaker 4: three V restaurant, did you speak with two employees there?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Were you able to access the video surveillance I was?
Speaker 4: And while at the restaurant, were you able to confirm
Speaker 4: Patrick Clancy on their video surveillance? Yes, Now, as far
Speaker 4: as their video surveillance time stamps three able to observe
Speaker 4: the time stamps at that location, I was. And did
Speaker 4: you notice any discrepancies about the time?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: And what did you do to confirm the time?
Speaker 16: I compared the live feed with my cell phone?
Speaker 4: Fair to say you were able to determine that the
Speaker 4: video surveillance did confirm Patrick Clancy arriving at seventeen fifty
Speaker 4: four fourteen, that he paid for a bag of food,
Speaker 4: and he left the store by the front door at
Speaker 4: seventeen fifty five oh one. Yes, Now, in addition to
Speaker 4: gathering the video surveillance, Well, let me back up for
Speaker 4: a second. So on one particular occasion, you were able
Speaker 4: to go and view the video surveillance correcked at some
Speaker 4: later date where you provided with copies of the video
Speaker 4: surveillance from both the CVS and Kingston and the three
Speaker 4: three the restaurant in Plymouth. Yes, and you brought that
Speaker 4: back to the state Police.
Speaker 25: Yes, the video.
Speaker 4: Yes. Now, as follow up for this investigation, did you
Speaker 4: learn information about the route of travel Patrick Clancy took
Speaker 4: that night to go from his home to these locations?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Did you do anything to try to ascertain approximately how
Speaker 4: much time it would have taken him to go to
Speaker 4: these locations from his home at forty seven Summer Street.
Speaker 16: Yes, I mapped it on the maps application on my iPhone.
Speaker 4: Now do you recall when you did that?
Speaker 9: I don't.
Speaker 4: When you did this mapping of the locations, did it
Speaker 4: give you approximate distances and times between the locations? Yes,
Speaker 4: and fair to say, not knowing exactly when it occurred
Speaker 4: doesn't account for the time Patrick would have been there,
Speaker 4: or any traffic or accidents or anything like that. But
Speaker 4: as far as you could tell, you were just looking
Speaker 4: for approximate timeframes.
Speaker 17: Yes, the general idea.
Speaker 4: Now, as part of this investigation, you also were involved
Speaker 4: in some interviews with potential witnesses yes, not fair to say,
Speaker 4: including Paula Musgrove Yes, and who's Paula Musgrove to mother?
Speaker 4: And you also spoke to a former nanny of the
Speaker 4: Clancys named Elaine Flaherty Yes, as well as the employees
Speaker 4: from CBS, Angela Krause and Saraya Sweeney.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 4: Did you also or were you also present and follow
Speaker 4: up interviews with all of the first responders to the
Speaker 4: home in Duxbury on January twenty fourth, Not all of them,
Speaker 4: but a lot of them, so that would have been
Speaker 4: a majority of the paramedics slash firefighters from the different towns.
Speaker 25: Yes.
Speaker 4: On June twelfth of twenty twenty three, did you apply
Speaker 4: for and receive a search warrant for forty seven Summer Street.
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: And why why did you ask for a search warrant? Then?
Speaker 4: In June of twenty twenty.
Speaker 16: Three, we were reviewing photos crime scene photos, and someone
Speaker 16: noticed that there was potentially bloodstands on the outside of
Speaker 16: the house that we had not swabbed, so.
Speaker 4: To your knowledge, on the date of the incident on
Speaker 4: January twenty fourth, the stains on the outside of the
Speaker 4: house were not swabbed and collected by the crime lab, right?
Speaker 9: Correct?
Speaker 4: Did you have conversation for the conversations with forensic scientists
Speaker 4: at the crime lab to determine the vibe of obtaining
Speaker 4: additional swabs all those months later and.
Speaker 9: It's already been crossing.
Speaker 2: Allow that the question just yes or no? Did you
Speaker 2: speak to somebody? Not the answer?
Speaker 4: So, did you speak to somebody at the crime lab
Speaker 4: about the possibility of obtaining some biological substances from the home?
Speaker 15: Yes?
Speaker 4: And as a result of your conversations, did you then
Speaker 4: apply and were granted a search?
Speaker 9: Weren't? Yes?
Speaker 4: So subsequently some swabs and shingles were collected from the
Speaker 4: home at forty seven Summer Street, correct. And were you
Speaker 4: present when that was done?
Speaker 16: I was.
Speaker 4: On May fifteenth, twenty twenty four. Did you have the
Speaker 4: occasion to go to the Twokespari State Hospital.
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: And what was the purpose of going there.
Speaker 17: To collect DNA from the defendant?
Speaker 4: And is there a particular procedure that you, as an
Speaker 4: investigator use in order to collect a sample a DNA
Speaker 4: sample from somebody?
Speaker 17: Yeah, we used a DNA collection kit.
Speaker 16: It has a foam swab that you used to have
Speaker 16: swab the inside of a person's mouth to collect saliva
Speaker 16: that's then transferred to a collection cod We let it dry,
Speaker 16: then seal the kit.
Speaker 4: So the swab kind of looks like a lollipop, Yes,
Speaker 4: with a foam And yes, and you're trained on how
Speaker 4: to swab the inside of a person's cheek on both
Speaker 4: sides in order to obtain an adequate sample. Yes, and
Speaker 4: you did that in this case.
Speaker 9: I did.
Speaker 4: Who did you collect the sample from the defendant? And
Speaker 4: that would be Lindsay Clancy?
Speaker 9: Correct.
Speaker 4: Were other people present when you did this?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 4: Who were they?
Speaker 16: Sogerant, Josh Mcalligan, DPH Police Chief Michael Riggs, and Charni Reddickton.
Speaker 4: What did you do with the sample that was collected
Speaker 4: from the defendant on May fifteenth, twenty twenty four, at
Speaker 4: the Checksparre State Hospital.
Speaker 16: It was placed in a temporary evidence at the DA's office.
Speaker 4: Was that sample then later transported to the state Police
Speaker 4: crime lab?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 4: Now, another thing that you did in this investigation sometime
Speaker 4: later was seek search warrants to Facebook or what's no
Speaker 4: as meta correct correct, as well as a particular Facebook
Speaker 4: group called attachment Parenting for Little's Correct. As a result
Speaker 4: of that warrant. Did you receive data back from Facebook?
Speaker 4: I did, and were you able to confirm a Facebook
Speaker 4: page in the name of Lindsay Marie Clancy. Were you
Speaker 4: also able to confirm that there's a particular post by
Speaker 4: the person named Lindsay Marie Clancy or the Facebook page
Speaker 4: Lindsay Marie Clancy on May fifth, twenty one, to the
Speaker 4: attachment Parenting for Little's group. Yes, I'm just gonna approach you.
Speaker 6: May I have no problem with no objection.
Speaker 4: I'm just going to show you a document. Is that
Speaker 4: familiar to you? And is this the face posted.
Speaker 6: No objection? That may be admitted?
Speaker 4: Sergeant Kakio just knowing you what's now been marked as
Speaker 4: Exhibit two hundred and seventeen on the screen. Is that
Speaker 4: a Facebook post from the attachment Parenting for Little's Facebook group. Yes,
Speaker 4: And through the information you received from the search work return,
Speaker 4: you were able to locate the content of this post
Speaker 4: in the records for the attachment Parenting for Littles and
Speaker 4: confirm that it also appeared to be authored by Lindsay
Speaker 4: Murray Clancy correct. Correct or by the Facebook page of
Speaker 4: Lindsay Murray Clancy.
Speaker 9: Yes, and.
Speaker 4: Her to say it reads Hello, lovely parents. I'm looking
Speaker 4: for some advice, solidarity, ideas, something anything. I'm truly finding
Speaker 4: my nineteen month old to be the most difficult human
Speaker 4: I've ever encountered. I mean that with all love in
Speaker 4: my heart, but I honestly cannot make it through a
Speaker 4: day without getting so frustrated with him. He's not my
Speaker 4: first child, so not to compare, because I know that
Speaker 4: every child is different, but just for background, this isn't
Speaker 4: my first rodeo. Every single thing with him is a battle,
Speaker 4: and it has been this way for a while, since
Speaker 4: he was maybe eight months old. I really try to
Speaker 4: pick my battles and only do what's completely necessary, but
Speaker 4: I mean everything getting out of his crib in the
Speaker 4: morning and going downstairs, changing his diaper, getting him dressed,
Speaker 4: getting him in his seat to eat, getting him in
Speaker 4: the car seat, getting him out of the car seat,
Speaker 4: putting on his jacket and shoes to go outside, having
Speaker 4: him come inside when it's time, going to sleep for
Speaker 4: his nap, and at night. He fights me every step
Speaker 4: of the way. With all these normal daily activities. It
Speaker 4: constantly feels like I have a force. I have to
Speaker 4: force him to do these things, which feels so wrong,
Speaker 4: but he is always fighting me and crying about doing
Speaker 4: these very normal things. You recall seeing that message in
Speaker 4: the records. I do, and I'm fair to say there
Speaker 4: was some comments to the records and also an acknowledgment
Speaker 4: by the person with the Facebook page, Lenzie Marie Clancy,
Speaker 4: thanking the contributors for their advice.
Speaker 25: Yes, have no further questions.
Speaker 6: It's you're ready to.
Speaker 17: Define answer.
Speaker 8: This would be Exhibit seventeen, which is the parenting for
Speaker 8: Littles post by Lindsay correct. Correct, And this was back
Speaker 8: in May of twenty twenty one. Yes, and she was
Speaker 8: talking about her son, who at the time was nineteen
Speaker 8: months old.
Speaker 17: That's correct.
Speaker 8: Now, as a state police officer, you know I had
Speaker 8: to investigate things, right, Yes, you guys must have turned
Speaker 8: things inside out to find out if Lindsay Clancy was
Speaker 8: ever abusive to her son Dawson.
Speaker 17: Right, that's correct.
Speaker 9: Found nothing, did you? No, thank you?
Speaker 6: It's all you have anything on that?
Speaker 9: No, thank you?
Speaker 5: Se me step down. I'll sure all right.
Speaker 2: Remembers of the jury, there's emotion or hearing I have
Speaker 2: to do with the lawyers, and.
Speaker 6: It's gonna take a little bit of a watch.
Speaker 5: So I'm gonna excuse you for today, go back tomorrow
Speaker 5: nine o'clock.
Speaker 2: One of the questions I asked over here was where
Speaker 2: are we on the time?
Speaker 9: As all right?
Speaker 2: I'm told that we are on schedule, if not at
Speaker 2: a schedule in regards to what we told you. All right,
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna excuse you till tomorrow. We're gonna stay here,
Speaker 2: do a few more things, and I'm just gonna remind you,
Speaker 2: as I've said every night, you have to it's an
Speaker 2: open mind. Don't talk about this with anyone. I don't
Speaker 2: do any research about anything. If you see anything about
Speaker 2: this case or any similar cases, don't read, listen, or
Speaker 2: watch anything in regards to that. I don't do any
Speaker 2: research on this or any matters that you have. The
Speaker 2: questions you have in your mind. I don't take any
Speaker 2: field trips. Don't happen to just be driving by certain areas.
Speaker 2: Then you think you want to double check. We've done that,
Speaker 2: all right. So you've worked so hard this case so far.
Speaker 2: I just want you to continue to follow those instructions,
Speaker 2: and with that, I'm going to excuse you until tomorrow.
Speaker 2: I would expect, and every time I say this, I'm
Speaker 2: usually wrong, but I would expect we'd have a pretty
Speaker 2: full day tomorrow, okay, And so with that, I hope
Speaker 2: you have a nice evening, hope you stay cool, and
Speaker 2: we will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 5: So thank you very much.
Speaker 15: Session.
Speaker 5: All right, So we're going to be in recess until
Speaker 5: three o'clock. We're going to come back have a hearing
Speaker 5: on the defendis motion.
Speaker 2: For permission to call certain witnesses, and so we'll have
Speaker 2: a hearing on that at three o'clock.
Speaker 5: All right, so we'll be in recess, so basically so
Speaker 5: parties can kind of.
Speaker 6: Get themselves oriented in regards to that motion.
Speaker 2: So we'll be in recess, all right.
Speaker 18: The record we returned.
Speaker 4: Excre the jury. All right.
Speaker 2: Well, what I wanted to do was here are the
Speaker 2: arguments in regards to the defendant's motion for permission to
Speaker 2: call witnesses. I know that this was filed this morning,
Speaker 2: but it's kind of handed glove with issues that were
Speaker 2: raised a couple of weeks ago. Same at least mentioned
Speaker 2: the same witnesses. So so I'm gonna hear first from
Speaker 2: the cam, first from the defendant, they'll hear from the
Speaker 2: car wealth. I will probably take it under advisement and
Speaker 2: review some of the other documents. But I want to
Speaker 2: make this decision as soon as they can, so everybody
Speaker 2: kind of can plan on how they go based on
Speaker 2: the decision. So mister Reddington, let me hear you first
Speaker 2: on this.
Speaker 8: You run, obviously, I don't have to believe the obvious.
Speaker 8: This is a murder trow, very serious business, and we've
Speaker 8: all been working very hard on the discovery, which is
Speaker 8: you can tell is voluminous, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 8: of pages of state police interviews and I mentioned you
Speaker 8: know about with the government. They have cops, they have
Speaker 8: people going out and interviewing, they have videos, they have chemists,
Speaker 8: they have detectives, they have local cops. They want a
Speaker 8: cup of coffee, they can send five cops down the
Speaker 8: street to get one. I'm it except for my son Patrick,
Speaker 8: who helps me out getting coffee, all right. And the
Speaker 8: reason I sound frustrated is that they are objecting two
Speaker 8: weeks ago because they need time to reviewed, to cross
Speaker 8: examined doctors on very basic items of evidence. That are
Speaker 8: there items of evidence. Now one of those witnesses is
Speaker 8: adding or bringing anything new to the discovery, if you will,
Speaker 8: and not by way of excuse. But you know, I
Speaker 8: am a sole practitioner in the past major rooms of
Speaker 8: a lot. In the past three months, I've had a murder,
Speaker 8: a rape, and two back to back federal trials that
Speaker 8: ended one week before we im paneled on this case.
Speaker 8: I have worked really hard to pull this case together
Speaker 8: with expert witnesses, civilian witnesses, private investigators been investigating. I
Speaker 8: provide everything to them as soon as I get it,
Speaker 8: and they have been doing the same with me. I
Speaker 8: haven't objected to one thing that they have offered.
Speaker 9: They put an AutoCAD.
Speaker 8: Communtic comuter animated display disc on my desk last week.
Speaker 8: I didn't complain about it. Run to you and try
Speaker 8: to exclude it. I said, fine, no problem, put in
Speaker 8: my pile and move on.
Speaker 9: That's it.
Speaker 8: So to suggest that they need time to be able
Speaker 8: to cross examine both, I've had trials with both of
Speaker 8: these prosecutors. They're both experienced, They're very, very familiar with
Speaker 8: the trial of major criminal cases.
Speaker 9: I feel that.
Speaker 8: They're more than capable of being able to cross examine.
Speaker 9: For example, number.
Speaker 8: One, doctor Volkovich, who is a Board certified emergency medicine physician.
Speaker 8: His report indicates that he has taken a look at
Speaker 8: south Shore Hospital. He's taken a look at the bringing
Speaker 8: a woman's hospital. He's taken a look at the photographs.
Speaker 8: That's their evidence. That's all he looked at. And all
Speaker 8: he's doing is basically what all of their south Shore
Speaker 8: doctors came in and testified to as to the nature
Speaker 8: of the injuries. In his opinion, the type of injury
Speaker 8: that she suffered, talking about the injuries to the right
Speaker 8: and left wrist as well as the neck, and in
Speaker 8: his opinion dealing with suicide attempts that it's a legitimate
Speaker 8: suicide attempt. There's no secrets, there's nothing new that they
Speaker 8: have to prepare to cross.
Speaker 9: Examine him on.
Speaker 8: Doctor Lapisada is a doctor that is well known to
Speaker 8: most of us, and I've been using doctor Lappisada as
Speaker 8: fine services for the past decade or longer. I know
Speaker 8: that both of these attorneys are familiar with her. She's
Speaker 8: not bringing anything new to the table. She's bringing her
Speaker 8: opinion based upon their evidence as to the medical records,
Speaker 8: X rays, all of the rest of the the indisha
Speaker 8: of the injury that she suffered. Now they're talking about
Speaker 8: Lindsay going out hanging off of a window and then
Speaker 8: doing like I said, the spider man, slide down the
Speaker 8: side of the house. Apparently absolutely ridiculous. She dove out
Speaker 8: that window, she hit her head, and she suffered with
Speaker 8: Doctor Lapisida refers to as a Jefferson fracture of the spine.
Speaker 8: That is very, very very typical for this type of
Speaker 8: an injury. When somebody dives into the shallow end of
Speaker 8: a pool, they get that injury. Unfortunately, when somebody, you know,
Speaker 8: kids are on a boat and they're drunk and they
Speaker 8: one of them jumps off a mast into the shallow
Speaker 8: end of the water off of Cape Cod, they get
Speaker 8: that type of injury.
Speaker 9: Superman, when you.
Speaker 8: Get thrown off the horse six feet high, same injury.
Speaker 9: That's all.
Speaker 8: She's not bringing any esoteric theory to this case that
Speaker 8: they need time to prepare interestingly enough to bring them
Speaker 8: a woman's hospital records do make reference to the Jefferson
Speaker 8: fracture right from jumping. She also assists me, as she
Speaker 8: always does on autopsy photographs, any indsure of injuries, and
Speaker 8: it's her opinion that if they try to say that
Speaker 8: there are bruises to these little babies that were inflicted
Speaker 8: by her there absolutely wrong, and doctor Left decided it
Speaker 8: would indicate that these are consistent with the EMT. God
Speaker 8: bless those first responders, but they were in a panic,
Speaker 8: and they're trying to take care of these kids and
Speaker 8: pick them up and run them up to the to
Speaker 8: their trucks.
Speaker 9: And vehicles, so and other.
Speaker 8: Obviously, the interosis, injection into the legs, the shins, the thighs,
Speaker 8: all of these bruises from medical intervention. Not Lindsey Clancy,
Speaker 8: that's what she would testify to. That's it. They don't
Speaker 8: need time to prepare to cross examined for that. Finally,
Speaker 8: I have doctor Kandy. Doctor Kandy signed even better than
Speaker 8: a report. He signed an affidavit and again it's based
Speaker 8: upon medical records that we all have. Way back when
Speaker 8: this case first started, the government presented the case to
Speaker 8: the grand jury. First thing I said to Lindsay, would
Speaker 8: sign a release. Let the government give all the medical records.
Speaker 8: We'll all have access to them. Cases obviously going to
Speaker 8: be predicated upon the medical records, psychiatric records. We signed
Speaker 8: every release. They got every document and had them into
Speaker 8: the grand jury. I get copies, they have copies. Kandy
Speaker 8: would testify to the horrific, in his opinion, failure to
Speaker 8: comply with the standard of care that would govern psychiatrists, psychologists,
Speaker 8: doctor Tuffs, who's going to be testifying tomorrow, nurse practitioner Jalata,
Speaker 8: the other individual from the McLean Hospital, all records that
Speaker 8: they've had for years, so they don't need time to
Speaker 8: prepare for cross examination. So weeks ago, Council, after I
Speaker 8: gave them copies of all of these reports and affid
Speaker 8: strike that I'm sorry the reports I just got, and
Speaker 8: I just sent them the affidavit from Kandy, they already have.
Speaker 8: I disclosed to them what my opinion would be of
Speaker 8: the opinions from these doctors that would be testifying, and
Speaker 8: the report carries that out. I suggest to the court
Speaker 8: that to strip Lindsay's ability to present evidence in support
Speaker 8: of her defense.
Speaker 9: Number one, it would not be in the interest of justice.
Speaker 9: How I'd like to hear a DA stand.
Speaker 8: Up and say, in the interest of justice in this
Speaker 8: case because weeks ago we got this information and we're
Speaker 8: not prepared to testify to cross examine the testifying witnesses.
Speaker 8: I think you're even your honor would agree, is a
Speaker 8: disingenuous agument. She came in and said to you, Rule
Speaker 8: fourteen matters, and it applies to the government just as
Speaker 8: it applies to the defense, and therefore you should exclude
Speaker 8: these witnesses. Well, if I messed up and it's my
Speaker 8: trial schedule that caused me to not be able to
Speaker 8: have written reports of the stuff that they've had for
Speaker 8: years to prepare to cross examine these witnesses, then it's
Speaker 8: my fault, and it deprives her of effective assistance of counsel,
Speaker 8: because that would then deprive her of her defense. This
Speaker 8: is a pathologist, an emergency room doctor, and a doctor
Speaker 8: who would testify to the standards that would apply to
Speaker 8: these doctors that they're going to call.
Speaker 9: As their witnesses.
Speaker 8: Which is another interesting philip if you will, where they're
Speaker 8: calling Tufts, Jelata, the other individuals from McLean, all treating
Speaker 8: physicians of her that are all lined up to come
Speaker 8: in and testify against her on this case. Find bring it,
Speaker 8: but at least give me the ammunition to counter it.
Speaker 5: Let me ask you this.
Speaker 2: They kind of go backwards in regards to doctor Kandy.
Speaker 2: The Affidavid really speaks more towards the standard of care.
Speaker 8: That's right not giving an opinion of chrominal responsibility.
Speaker 6: Right, But I'm struggling to see how that comes.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 8: Maybe, well, he's here's the that I'm using for pxicology.
Speaker 5: That's what I feel. But the reason I'm asking that is.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: In this case is the standard of care necessarily as
Speaker 2: relevant as to in regards as opposed to causation.
Speaker 8: Do you know what I mean that you think that
Speaker 8: standard of care does speak to causation, doesn't have to
Speaker 8: use it as standard of care. He can use it
Speaker 8: as his opinion as to the first doctor that he
Speaker 8: spoke to. She spoke to doctor Tufts when she presents
Speaker 8: with a bipolar one presentation and then Toughs prescribes an
Speaker 8: SSRI to her, which flies in the face of any
Speaker 8: rational psychiatrist and what they would prescribe and do.
Speaker 9: He's more than qualified.
Speaker 2: Fact, that's a different question, and that may be more
Speaker 2: admissible than someone saying, oh, I've found what the standard
Speaker 2: of care and I find.
Speaker 6: That this violates it.
Speaker 2: If we have got an expert who says, listen, I
Speaker 2: am qualified.
Speaker 6: I looked at these records. I disagree with that.
Speaker 2: Treatment, I'd be more inclined to allow that than to
Speaker 2: get into the standard of care, which is obviously consistent
Speaker 2: more with the civil world.
Speaker 8: And address the actual treatment as to an opinion as
Speaker 8: to its appropriateness. But again on the issue that they're
Speaker 8: raising that they need time to prepare to cross examined,
Speaker 8: I don't think that lies when even if he revises
Speaker 8: his report by removing standard of care, well.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, because I haven't had enough
Speaker 2: to This is probably what I'm going to have to
Speaker 2: look at tonight. Is doctor Condy adding anything to the
Speaker 2: expert disclosures that have already been making.
Speaker 5: I know there's disclosures.
Speaker 8: He's taking the medical records tops to a lot of
Speaker 8: McLean hospital and just clementing on the care and the
Speaker 8: treatment that was presented to her as a patient looking
Speaker 8: looking for for help.
Speaker 9: That that's all he's doing. He's not adding anything.
Speaker 8: He's talking about the prescriptions that were provided provided to her,
Speaker 8: the SSRIs, the antipsychotics, the benzo diazepines, all of that.
Speaker 8: That's what his opinion is predicated upon, which is all
Speaker 8: of the prescriptions that the government has already introduced into
Speaker 8: evidence and is well.
Speaker 6: Aware of, right and said, but I know that there
Speaker 6: was the party's already exchanged reports.
Speaker 2: Well, and you know months ago, and I know everybody
Speaker 2: did that, and I haven't had a chance to review
Speaker 2: specifically the defendant's reports, and I don't. Is there an
Speaker 2: expert who is going to address these kind of issues already?
Speaker 8: No, Doctor Condy was my toxicologist and my treating for
Speaker 8: not treating, but a physician that would give an opinion
Speaker 8: as to the appropriateness of the treatment that she received,
Speaker 8: especially as it relates to the prescriptions. I mean, doctor
Speaker 8: Lapisiter is a pathologist, she has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 8: Doctor is Isazela is a psychologist, he has nothing to
Speaker 8: do with it. Doctor Resnick is a psychiatrist specializing in
Speaker 8: an infant infanticide. He's not addressing that issue. And Nora
Speaker 8: is doctor Spinelli, who is a postpatum, postpadum depression, postpatum
Speaker 8: psychosis expert. So doctor Condy is my expert for toxicology
Speaker 8: and the care level of care that she received, which
Speaker 8: gots the defensive if their argument that they need time
Speaker 8: to cross examine or prepare.
Speaker 9: He's also an exclusion.
Speaker 5: Okay, come on, thanks you, honor.
Speaker 7: With regard to doctor Condy, one of my points is
Speaker 7: going to be that his Affidavid addresses the standard of care,
Speaker 7: which is more of the civil issue, but you've already
Speaker 7: addressed that with defense counsel's pivot that he would then
Speaker 7: instead testify about the treatment of the defendant and toxicology.
Speaker 7: Looking at the affidavit in which he outlines his qualifications,
Speaker 7: he's not a toxicologist. He's a physician licensed here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 7: He's done a residency in general psychiatry, child and adolescent psychiatry,
Speaker 7: and forensic psychiolotry, but he's not a toxicologist. And also,
Speaker 7: it's not just us having all the same records that
Speaker 7: makes for cross examination to be fundamentally fair. There's more
Speaker 7: to cross examination than just having the underlying data. It's
Speaker 7: also knowing more about the expert, being able to look
Speaker 7: into their publications and their prior testimony, being able to
Speaker 7: prepare to rebut anything that they might testify to, and
Speaker 7: where we have this late disclosure which was one week
Speaker 7: prior to trial starting, that's fundamentally unfair to the Commonwealth.
Speaker 7: And I think what doctor Condie would be testifying to
Speaker 7: if it's just limited to her treatment and what was
Speaker 7: prescribed to her that's covered by the other three experts
Speaker 7: that defense already has. They all talk about her treatment,
Speaker 7: the prescription she was on, and the effects those had
Speaker 7: on her. So I think that would be redundant and
Speaker 7: it would be unfair to the comal to add this
Speaker 7: fourth expert to talk about the same things that the
Speaker 7: other three experts are going to talk about, when we
Speaker 7: haven't had a chance to prepare for this particular expert.
Speaker 7: For doctor lac Pasada, what we have is a two
Speaker 7: and a half page letter to Attorney Reddington outlining her thoughts,
Speaker 7: but it doesn't say what her opinions are based on.
Speaker 7: It doesn't say which materials she's reviewed and what she's
Speaker 7: relying on. So I would suggest that it's an insufficient
Speaker 7: and report. And again with the delayed disclosure. For example,
Speaker 7: she she talks about Jefferson Jefferson fracture causing the injuries. Well,
Speaker 7: if we had this information previously and knew this is
Speaker 7: what they were going to argue, we could have obtained
Speaker 7: our own expert to talk about the mechanism, mechanism of
Speaker 7: injury and Jefferson Jefferson fractures and all of those things.
Speaker 7: But we weren't told until a week before trial that
Speaker 7: she would even potentially be a witness. And then we
Speaker 7: get this report on July twenty six, that's a two
Speaker 7: and a half page letter.
Speaker 2: Didn't We have multiple trauma surgeons neurosurgeons who've testified who
Speaker 2: treated her.
Speaker 9: Couldn't.
Speaker 2: Couldn't I want to just ask is that consistent with
Speaker 2: and that's pretty much from looking at doctor Opposada's no.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure I.
Speaker 5: Would allow in.
Speaker 2: Opinions regarding whether or not it's a serious suicide or not.
Speaker 2: But she does indicate it's consistent.
Speaker 5: With landing on somebody on individuals.
Speaker 7: Had well, Jorda. We had a trauma surgeon from the
Speaker 7: Selfshore Hospital testify who said that the injuries that Ms
Speaker 7: Clancy sustained were at level one and she had to
Speaker 7: be transported to another hospital where doctors who were trained
Speaker 7: in those injuries could operate on her. So we didn't
Speaker 7: think that she would have the knowledge and the training
Speaker 7: and experience to testify about the nature of those injuries
Speaker 7: and how they occur. The trauma surgeon from Brigaman and
Speaker 7: Women's Hospital is with the military and is overseas in
Speaker 7: the Middle East and so was unavailable. But had we
Speaker 7: known that this was going to be an issue when
Speaker 7: they were going to allege this particular type of fracture.
Speaker 7: We would have endeavored to get another expert in replace
Speaker 7: of the doctor who treated her at Brigham and Women's.
Speaker 7: But we didn't know that this would even be an
Speaker 7: issue until a week before trial. And again, this report,
Speaker 7: this letter is date of July twenty sixth, and it
Speaker 7: doesn't tell us which records, which reports, or which which
Speaker 7: what medical journals are training or anything that these opinions
Speaker 7: are based on.
Speaker 6: Well, that could be done by voidier. I mean the Commonwealth.
Speaker 2: The Commonwealth has at least inferred through their case that
Speaker 2: this was not a serious suicide attempt, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: and now these questions about you whether or not somebody's
Speaker 2: hanging outside the window or not, and so why wasn't
Speaker 2: this an issue that the call Wealth could have be
Speaker 2: anticipated would come up.
Speaker 7: The position of the common Wealth isn't that it wasn't
Speaker 7: a serious suicide attempt. It's that the methods that were
Speaker 7: chosen were insufficient to achieve the goal, and the reasons
Speaker 7: for that we would argue in our closing. I don't
Speaker 7: think we have to disclose that theory at this point.
Speaker 7: But we've never said it wasn't a serious suicide attem.
Speaker 7: We've never said it was a fake suicide attempt. What
Speaker 7: we've endeavored to develop from the testimony is that the
Speaker 7: methods that were chosen were methods that would be unsuccessful.
Speaker 7: But we're not saying it wasn't a serious attempt. And
Speaker 7: I think the reasons for that will become clearer when
Speaker 7: the doctors give their testimony. But it's our position that
Speaker 7: she was attempting to kill herself that night, and there
Speaker 7: are various reasons and factors where she was unsuccessful in
Speaker 7: killing herself but successful in killing her children.
Speaker 6: But there's been all kinds of testimony regarding it.
Speaker 2: Seems to be a dispute of whether or not she's
Speaker 2: hanging from the windowsill or goes out head first. There's
Speaker 2: some testimony that's been raised with the blood experts, the
Speaker 2: things that she've even hanging from the windowsill, Doctor la Posado,
Speaker 2: it seems what they're seeking, he is, is those injuries
Speaker 2: are consistent with somebody who lands on their head.
Speaker 7: So with the with the court allow us to call
Speaker 7: a witness who's not on our witness list to rebut
Speaker 7: that evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would consider that sure, Yeah, And this is
Speaker 2: kind of what you know, why I didn't make a
Speaker 2: decision on this earlier. They have to kind of see
Speaker 2: how the case develops. And this issue of how this
Speaker 2: injury occurs is certainly it's either been specifically and explicitly
Speaker 2: raised or inferred in multiple questions, you know, even to
Speaker 2: the length of to the part of you know, the
Speaker 2: the the cots and things like that.
Speaker 5: It's been over and over and over.
Speaker 6: So if the karmonwealth.
Speaker 2: Seeks to get somebody to robut that, I would strongly
Speaker 2: consider that. And in regards to doctor Lapisada's opinion, we
Speaker 2: may need a wider in regards to but I wouldn't
Speaker 2: imagine the would take that long.
Speaker 5: It would be you know, did.
Speaker 9: You view the x rays?
Speaker 2: I mean that kind of an injury is probably pretty clear.
Speaker 6: On the x rays or the MRIs.
Speaker 7: If we could get a list from defense counsel on
Speaker 7: what she's basing her opinion on, so we can have
Speaker 7: our witness to review the same material MISP.
Speaker 8: Right now, it's just simple, it's just a self shoe
Speaker 8: hospital medical records. Bring them a women's medical records that
Speaker 8: have already discussed.
Speaker 2: What opinion, and I would allow then the Commonwealth to
Speaker 2: present a rebuttal witness if if they seek to.
Speaker 7: And just note our objection. Sure, but also the third expert.
Speaker 7: What we have here is a letter dated August fourth,
Speaker 7: that's a page and a half that's not even signed
Speaker 7: by I believe it's structor Bulkovich. H.
Speaker 6: I'm more concerned with that.
Speaker 2: Is whether or not the opinion is is admissible. The
Speaker 2: opinion as I see it is he's reviewed the medical
Speaker 2: records and it's his opinion this was commonly. These are
Speaker 2: injuries that commonly observed in the quote of serious suicide attempts.
Speaker 5: Serious Yeah, I mean or even suicide attempts.
Speaker 2: That that's an opinion.
Speaker 8: Waxed eloquently about suicide and whether.
Speaker 2: But but but I'm just concerned that that how how
Speaker 2: are we going to kind of parse out what he
Speaker 2: looked at a hundred other cases and then we go
Speaker 2: through into all of those.
Speaker 6: So I'm again I have to take a look.
Speaker 5: That's why I'm going to take under advisement for sure.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean he may have other opinions that we
Speaker 2: have to look at.
Speaker 5: I think he talked about.
Speaker 2: Some of his observations as an emergency room doctor.
Speaker 6: Anything didn't he Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: More reluctant to allow in band individuals opinion that this
Speaker 2: was a suicide attempt.
Speaker 8: So they're yes, how sure doctors are able to talk
Speaker 8: about you know, superficial superficial, as we've heard for a
Speaker 8: week now, But his opinion that it's it's consistent with
Speaker 8: what he's observed in his regency room treatment is not admissible.
Speaker 6: No, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is that he can't necessarily give
Speaker 2: the opinion.
Speaker 6: I've looked at this. It's my opinion this.
Speaker 2: Was a suicide attempt, but he could certainly testify. I've
Speaker 2: looked at the cuts these are.
Speaker 5: You know, the.
Speaker 2: Phrase superficial, I think that's been kind of mixed up
Speaker 2: in this whole thing too. That seems to be more
Speaker 2: of a medical term as opposed to well.
Speaker 8: They basically beat it to desk with not being a
Speaker 8: medical term until we were able to show that, in fact,
Speaker 8: it was deep three point five and two.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I mean, if you want to call this doctor,
Speaker 2: he's gonna say that's a significant cut.
Speaker 9: Okay.
Speaker 6: That's that's different than.
Speaker 2: Saying, looking at that, I find that this is a
Speaker 2: suicide attempt, Just like I there's never been an opinion
Speaker 2: here that this was not a suicide attempt.
Speaker 5: That's probably something that.
Speaker 6: The jury is now, but it wasn't a week ago.
Speaker 2: Well that's that's good probably for the jury to determine.
Speaker 2: But I would allow kind of going into the characteristics
Speaker 2: have already been testified to the so and I don't
Speaker 2: we need a further what dear on that doctor as well,
Speaker 2: but I think he listened.
Speaker 6: There kind of what he reviewed.
Speaker 2: But yeah, anything else in regards to those three witnesses,
Speaker 2: all right, So I'm gonna take this under advisement, but
Speaker 2: just kind of for.
Speaker 6: What I'm inclined to do.
Speaker 2: Is, we've got to take a look at doctor Kandi's
Speaker 2: report and compare it to some of the other reports.
Speaker 6: I'm inclined to.
Speaker 2: Let doctor Lapisada testify to the consistent the that the injuries
Speaker 2: are consistent with basically a fall on the head. And Yah,
Speaker 2: the last doctor, we've got to take a look at
Speaker 2: kind of his language, but I would not be allowing
Speaker 2: in that his opinion.
Speaker 6: That this is a suicide attempt.
Speaker 2: But he may testify as to all the other observations
Speaker 2: that he took from those records.
Speaker 9: Understood, just objection for.
Speaker 6: All right, and so know Calmwell's objection.
Speaker 2: I'll note the defendants objection, uh and so, and like
Speaker 2: I said, I'm gonna I'll take an undervisement and everybody
Speaker 2: can uh renew those.
Speaker 8: Objections standard as to standard of care and just reference
Speaker 8: the actual treatment and descriptions that you will.
Speaker 9: All right, all right, So I'll take a look at this.
Speaker 6: I'll have this tomorrow morning for everybody, all right.
Speaker 8: So anything else we need to address, just in case
Speaker 8: there is a problem. Doctor Lapisada has been working with
Speaker 8: a gentleman by the name of mister Drake, that Drake Laboratories,
Speaker 8: that is putting together an auto computer animated display of
Speaker 8: coming out the window the injuries to the next showing
Speaker 8: the vertebrae and that type of thing, which is all
Speaker 8: based upon evidence that's already in evidence here. So I
Speaker 8: just want I haven't got it yet, it's not done yet,
Speaker 8: So I don't want not say anything about it now
Speaker 8: because they'll be objecting to it tomorrow.
Speaker 9: I'm sure.
Speaker 6: I assume, I assume we'll have to take a look
Speaker 6: at that.
Speaker 2: He would have an objection to it is you don't
Speaker 2: know you haven't seen it.
Speaker 7: So it goes back to the whole position that you know,
Speaker 7: we have the right to if we want to obtain
Speaker 7: another expert, and then expert could review that material and
Speaker 7: you know, use it to form his opinion. This is
Speaker 7: different than the three D diagram of the house that
Speaker 7: the camal be the defense was on notice that that
Speaker 7: was becoming the basis of the measurements of what the
Speaker 7: house looked like itself, and so that was turned over.
Speaker 7: This is completely different.
Speaker 8: And I just note that, as I said, the medical
Speaker 8: records that the government has talks about Jefferson fracture. You
Speaker 8: might remember two weeks ago or two and a half
Speaker 8: weeks ago, when they first raised their objection, I told
Speaker 8: you that I can't know what they're going to argue
Speaker 8: until they argue it. So I didn't know whether or
Speaker 8: not they were going to say that it's a fake
Speaker 8: suicide or that she didn't jump out the window. I
Speaker 8: had to wait to see what they're opening. Was now,
Speaker 8: I know I have to rebutter.
Speaker 2: We were almost out of here till you mentioned that
Speaker 2: b D thing, So why why don't we do this?
Speaker 2: We'll wait on that, all right. I'm not committing one
Speaker 2: way or the other in regards to that. We'll see,
Speaker 2: you know, so you maybe the testimony with the three D,
Speaker 2: the testimony without the three D. We'll just kind of
Speaker 2: see here and see where we go, all right, all right,
Speaker 2: So thanks everybody for kind of buckling down.
Speaker 6: And going through that so we can resolve that as
Speaker 6: best we can. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: So we'll be in recess on this matter till uh
Speaker 2: until tomorrow after tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. Thank you,
Speaker 2: all right,