Speaker 1: Van McMahon, Van McMahan. That is being old Land, Texas
Speaker 1: flood as tickets mud, He's man Mcmahvan McMahan.
Speaker 2: Then the massive snowstorm we had last night of this
Speaker 2: morning has disappeared and it's sunny here in downtown Salt
Speaker 2: Lake City, Utah.
Speaker 3: Because this date is really weird.
Speaker 2: Good stuff from Tom Haberstroke Today, we'll get back to
Speaker 2: some of the college stuff with Ken Pomeroy.
Speaker 3: We got Pablo on the program as well.
Speaker 2: RSL back in action taking on the La Galaxy coming up.
Speaker 3: But it is time now.
Speaker 2: For our weekly conversation with one of our favorites from ESPN,
Speaker 2: the author of the book that's out now, The Wonder
Speaker 2: Boy on Luka Doncic's great to have Tim McMahon back
Speaker 2: on the show on a Tuesday.
Speaker 3: Happy Tuesday, Tim, how.
Speaker 4: We doing, pahty partner. I appreciate you having.
Speaker 3: Me appreciate the time.
Speaker 2: So, for the first time in jazz history, we have
Speaker 2: a team that has lost sixty plus.
Speaker 3: Games one two, three, can coon you can tell that.
Speaker 2: Look you know the deal, not just players, coaches, front
Speaker 2: office guys, front office members, broadcasters. I think everybody is
Speaker 2: ready for the season to be over only six games
Speaker 2: left him.
Speaker 3: What do you have to say to Jazz fans?
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know why you're being so negative. I
Speaker 4: just literally grabbed a package from my front door and
Speaker 4: I opened it up. And it is a nice little
Speaker 4: promotional thing for Isaiah Callier for all rookie there's those
Speaker 4: big mountain lift passes type of things going on. There's
Speaker 4: nice photography. I thought it was a well done promotional
Speaker 4: campaign for a man who broke John Stockton's assist record
Speaker 4: last night. Now I guess one of Johnston. I guess
Speaker 4: John Stockton probably has some other assist records now I
Speaker 4: think about it, but he did break the franchise a
Speaker 4: rookie assist record. Nice little season and of the number
Speaker 4: twenty nine overall pick. You know me a guy who
Speaker 4: finds silver linings while I'm up on those mountain chair
Speaker 4: lift type of things. And now I have to pass
Speaker 4: four thanks to Isaiah Colliers house standing rookie season. So
Speaker 4: why don't we talk about that?
Speaker 2: Let's do John Stockton as a rookie started five games
Speaker 2: and played eighteen minutes a night.
Speaker 4: Oh well, g whizz, Ain't that a bitch? You know?
Speaker 4: I think that this means that callier's on his way
Speaker 4: to like fifteen thousand, nine hundred more assists or so.
Speaker 3: I will say this.
Speaker 2: You know I was because when the Jazz released this
Speaker 2: promotional campaign, you start looking around at this rookie class.
Speaker 2: I actually think he has a chance to him to
Speaker 2: make all Rookie I don't know that he will, but
Speaker 2: I when you look at he's thirty two percent from
Speaker 2: three since the All Star break, which isn't good, but
Speaker 2: it's better than twenty three percent. The crew irony is
Speaker 2: the best picks the Jazz have made since they started
Speaker 2: this project have been in the late maybe second round
Speaker 2: with Philipowski. But do you think Isaiah's got a shot
Speaker 2: to make call rookie?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a shot. I mean, look, first of all,
Speaker 4: most guys who may call rookie teams aren't playing for
Speaker 4: very good teams for obvious reasons. You know, typically the
Speaker 4: rookies who play a lot aren't on good teams. There
Speaker 4: are some exceptions, you know, Jalen Wells and Zachy from
Speaker 4: the Grizzlies, although there's a different sort of issue there.
Speaker 4: But you know, I think both those guys end up
Speaker 4: making it. But you know, he has had a good
Speaker 4: rookie season. Talking about Collier, now, as you say, preferably,
Speaker 4: you'd like for the guy you had in the you
Speaker 4: drafted the lottery to be the candidate that you're promoting
Speaker 4: later on. But uh, you know, Collier's got a chance
Speaker 4: to be a nice player, and he's off to a
Speaker 4: promising start. And you know, the thing about Collier is
Speaker 4: there was a point in time where he was expected
Speaker 4: to be maybe even an early lottery pick, and obviously
Speaker 4: didn't have the kind of season people anticipated last year
Speaker 4: for USC So you know, he's not your tip number
Speaker 4: twenty nine overall pick in terms of the Kgule upside.
Speaker 2: And you know, the Kyle Philipowski pick in the second round.
Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about this a couple of different times. Now,
Speaker 2: I mean, the two top ten picks the Jazz have
Speaker 2: had since this I know I'm supposed to say tear down,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to say rebuild. Since this all started,
Speaker 2: Taylor Hendrix, who we don't know. You know, Taylor got hurt.
Speaker 2: We'll wait and see what he turns into. I actually
Speaker 2: like him as much as any of these young prospects.
Speaker 3: We just need to see more.
Speaker 2: And then Cody Cody Williams and you know, Tom Aberstrow,
Speaker 2: your buddy. Last segment, you know, dropped the Haberstrow numbers
Speaker 2: on us and Cody as the worst you know player
Speaker 2: efficiency number based off of rookies played more than a
Speaker 2: thousand minutes in the history of the NBA. And I
Speaker 2: just think you want your top ten pick because will
Speaker 2: has gone all in over the past, you know, six
Speaker 2: eight weeks or so on, giving these rookies opportunities, starting them,
Speaker 2: playing them big minutes, including Cody and Tim. I can
Speaker 2: point to all of them, Isaiah Keyante, I could keep going,
Speaker 2: Bryce Sensaba's been knocking down shots. All of them have
Speaker 2: shown in stretches that they do have NBA skill sets
Speaker 2: besides Cody, and he's your top ten guy. I don't
Speaker 2: know if you talk to him over there, and he's
Speaker 2: only twenty, but is there any worry that this may
Speaker 2: have been a swing and a miss?
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, naturally there has to be worried.
Speaker 4: I would say, you know, giving up on him would
Speaker 4: be prevatures. He's still a.
Speaker 3: Teenager, he's twenty. He's a young twenty year old.
Speaker 4: I'm sure, so I would say, you know, declare making
Speaker 4: any kind of like permanent declarations would be premature, but hey,
Speaker 4: it's there's not been a whole lot of reason to
Speaker 4: be optimistic, you know, as far as what he's shown
Speaker 4: on the floor for you this season.
Speaker 2: If the Jazz get Cooper Flag, what does that look
Speaker 2: like immediately right away?
Speaker 3: Next year?
Speaker 4: You know, it looks like they've got a guy to
Speaker 4: build around, They've got a face the franchise. I don't
Speaker 4: think it means that they're going to be competitive right away,
Speaker 4: but it means that there's you know, a clear foundation piece,
Speaker 4: which you know, as of right now, that guy is
Speaker 4: not necessarily there's really not like the big foundation piece
Speaker 4: on the roster at all. I think the question is
Speaker 4: can market them be your second or third best player
Speaker 4: once you get good and then you know Walker Kess.
Speaker 4: I think is is a complementary piece and potentially can
Speaker 4: be for a long time. But look, the Jazz are
Speaker 4: in desperate need of a franchise player, and Cooper Flag
Speaker 4: would step into that void right away. Doesn't mean like, look,
Speaker 4: there's no such thing as a guarantee. You know, nobody
Speaker 4: is guaranteed to be a superstar, but you know he's
Speaker 4: pretty close to it.
Speaker 3: So typically in the history of the NBA.
Speaker 2: If you're a twenty five year old generational talent, you
Speaker 2: don't get traded. And if you're a really good young
Speaker 2: head coach who has brought your team to a lot
Speaker 2: of wins playoff berths with what appeared to be good
Speaker 2: progress training for and I think the piece that Ramona
Speaker 2: Shelburne and you guys did over at ESPN today on
Speaker 2: Taylor Jenkins is really good downline some of the offensive
Speaker 2: changes that they made with some of the international coaching hires,
Speaker 2: and you know how I think it was all and
Speaker 2: eleven against winning teams. I still tim am very shocked
Speaker 2: that Taylor Jenkins lost his job. Now that it's been
Speaker 2: a little while and time has passed, what exactly happened here.
Speaker 4: Well, he got's knees cut out from under him last
Speaker 4: summer when he was forced to fire five assistant coaches
Speaker 4: ob basically you know, gutted his staff and uh, you
Speaker 4: know had to bring you know, and he was part
Speaker 4: of the interview process, but these weren't his hires that
Speaker 4: he brought in. And then he brings, you know, they
Speaker 4: the Grizzlies bring in the front office, brought in two guys.
Speaker 4: One is now their interim coach tauomas Zallo, who you know,
Speaker 4: was kind of considered, oh, this guy's this bright, rising
Speaker 4: offensive mine in Europe, but you know it coached the
Speaker 4: euro Cup championship team last year. Okay, you bring him in.
Speaker 4: And then Noel the Road, who's a player development guy
Speaker 4: I was doing some consulting stuff for the Spurs. Had
Speaker 4: some really interesting, unique conferensive ideas, but those guys' ideas
Speaker 4: didn't really mesh and so you had this tug of war.
Speaker 4: And so, look, everybody in the league knew that Taylor
Speaker 4: Jenkins probably wasn't going to be back with the Grizzlies
Speaker 4: next year. You don't have your staff gutted like that
Speaker 4: and then give up control of your offense to two
Speaker 4: guys who you didn't know until the interview process started
Speaker 4: over the summer without your job being in jeopardy. The
Speaker 4: anticipation was the Grizzies would get bounced in the first round,
Speaker 4: then it would be done. So the surprise with Taylor
Speaker 4: was that it happened when it did. That happened with
Speaker 4: nine games left in the regular season. The bigger surprise
Speaker 4: to people who've been following the Grizzlies this season though,
Speaker 4: was that Noel la Ross also got fired. This is
Speaker 4: a guy they gave him a seven figure salary to
Speaker 4: leave the player development program, but then he was essentially
Speaker 4: serving as their offensive coordinator and all this new kind
Speaker 4: of interesting, creative stuff that they were doing this year,
Speaker 4: very unique stuff that they were doing this year was his.
Speaker 4: So what that means and by the way, Joe hated
Speaker 4: it because they've set in the few ball screens and
Speaker 4: Drew Landolph since the tracking stuff started more than a
Speaker 4: decade ago. So what this really means is, Okay, Taylor
Speaker 4: wasn't going to make it after the season, let's just
Speaker 4: do it now. And then they went away from a
Speaker 4: system that had worked to a certain degree. I was
Speaker 4: really creative and unique, but their face, the franchise hated it.
Speaker 4: So this is an attempt to, as somebody there told me,
Speaker 4: to try to optimize Jaw, and really it's an attempt
Speaker 4: to try to make Jaw happy because there's also been
Speaker 4: a lot of noise, and not the drinking's part of it,
Speaker 4: but getting rid of Nola erosion and the offensive systems
Speaker 4: and attempts to make Jaw happy because there has been
Speaker 4: a lot of noise about Jaw's not happy, Jos. You
Speaker 4: know what's going to happen with John Memphis? Is that
Speaker 4: going to be Is that going to be something that
Speaker 4: bubbles up this summer? And you know, I would say
Speaker 4: we will see about all that, but doing it the
Speaker 4: way the whole last year in Memphis has been messy
Speaker 4: from a coaching staff perspective.
Speaker 3: Was there any input?
Speaker 2: I mean, Ja's also twenty five, you know, and I'm
Speaker 2: looking at the Memphis situation maybe through the prism of
Speaker 2: what we deal with here in Utah with the Jazz
Speaker 2: roster there right now, in ability to compete at a
Speaker 2: high level, like you could do a lot worse than
Speaker 2: what Memphis is and who they've been, and you could
Speaker 2: do a lot worse than Taylor Jenkins as a head coach.
Speaker 2: So it's not like that's a bad roster. They do
Speaker 2: have a cornerstone and John Moran. Do you know if
Speaker 2: there was any feedback from Jah or his camp that
Speaker 2: they wanted to make this change based off of your
Speaker 2: comments on how upset he seemed to be with his
Speaker 2: offensive system.
Speaker 4: So again, I don't think Joe wanted to play in
Speaker 4: that offensive system anymore. So I think the firing him
Speaker 4: know is an attempt to try to appease John Moran
Speaker 4: my understanding, as none of this was discussed with him
Speaker 4: directly beforehand. But that's the firing of the seven figure
Speaker 4: assistant who's sitting on the second row pulling the strings
Speaker 4: of the offense. The firing of Taylor Jenkins is not
Speaker 4: something that Jaw pushed for. I don't know if it's
Speaker 4: something to Job even wanted it at all. I don't
Speaker 4: know if any issues there now. I was told that
Speaker 4: Taylor had quote unquote lost the locker room and the players,
Speaker 4: including Jaw, had tuned him out. But guess what, that's
Speaker 4: the kind of thing that happens when you cut the
Speaker 4: coach off at his knees by making him cut his
Speaker 4: whole staff and bringing people that doesn't know and turn
Speaker 4: over the offense to people that he just met. Like,
Speaker 4: players aren't dumb, they can read the tea leaves on that.
Speaker 4: And so he lost the locker room. G whiz who
Speaker 4: you know? Of course he did, you new to the
Speaker 4: guy for everybody to see.
Speaker 2: So one of the other assistants they brought in didn't
Speaker 2: just keep his job. He was elevated to the interim
Speaker 2: in this Tamasa Salo finished coach who is now the
Speaker 2: interim head coach. Is what is your understanding as far
Speaker 2: as the difference between uh this this coach and then
Speaker 2: Laroch who was fired. I mean, he obviously has the
Speaker 2: respect and admiration of somebody because he has the job now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he actually his system is much more pick
Speaker 4: and roll based. You know, there are some creative elements
Speaker 4: of that, but again where they were setting by far
Speaker 4: the fewest ball screens in the NBA, like ten feel
Speaker 4: per game than anybody else. His is more of a
Speaker 4: pick and roll based system. And look, job, John doesn't
Speaker 4: want to be off the ball and cutting and you know,
Speaker 4: moving like John wants the rock in his hands and
Speaker 4: he wants to he wants to have the keys and
Speaker 4: be in charge. And so they're going back to a
Speaker 4: more pick and roll based offense, you know, which obvious
Speaker 4: he's more in line with everybody else in the NBA.
Speaker 4: You know. The interesting thing about it, though, is the
Speaker 4: Grizzlies are you know, when they made the firings, were
Speaker 4: the six ranks offense in the NBA, and they had
Speaker 4: started to incorporate more of the pick and roll stuff,
Speaker 4: which is kind of a way to try to appease
Speaker 4: Jaw in the first place. But the other thing is
Speaker 4: Jah is a mediocre pick and roll player. Over the
Speaker 4: course of his career, points per possession when there's a
Speaker 4: pick and roll for Jah zero point ninety nine the ranks.
Speaker 4: Thirty ninth got a fifty six skys who have had
Speaker 4: at least five thousand ball screen set forms since he
Speaker 4: started his career. Like, that's like the epitome of mediocre.
Speaker 2: I was shocked to read that, because I think the
Speaker 2: assumption is he's so impossible with his with the ball
Speaker 2: in his hands, whether it's ISO or whether it's with
Speaker 2: the assistance of a screen, that you would just think
Speaker 2: to John Moran being John Moran is one of the
Speaker 2: elite scores off the ball screen in the NBA.
Speaker 3: I was surprised to read that today.
Speaker 4: Well, John Moran is absolutely one of the best transition players,
Speaker 4: may be the best. I mean, I guess, you know,
Speaker 4: we could talk about Johannis with some other guys, but
Speaker 4: John Morant pushing the pace cham Ran in the open floor,
Speaker 4: is without question one of the best players, one of
Speaker 4: the best offensive threats in the NBA. You know, sometimes
Speaker 4: the ISO stuff, well if Jock can get downhill, There's
Speaker 4: no doubt he's awesome. But pick and roll, Like, dude,
Speaker 4: you're just going to go under the screen on them,
Speaker 4: like if if John's going to step in the jump
Speaker 4: shots playing pick and roll. You live with that all
Speaker 4: day long. And so when you can just go under
Speaker 4: screens on a guy, it makes it a lot easier
Speaker 4: to defend them.
Speaker 2: So before I set you loose, Tim, actually no two questions. First,
Speaker 2: Alex Jensen, of course, and you head coach if Utah
Speaker 2: men's basketball is going to finish out the season with
Speaker 2: the Dallas Mavericks. In for a minute, I thought that
Speaker 2: meant at the end of the regular season, are they
Speaker 2: going to be in the plane? How long is Alex
Speaker 2: going to be with Dallas? How long is the season
Speaker 2: going to last?
Speaker 4: Well, they'll be in the plane because the Suns are smoke.
Speaker 4: I don't know that Kevin Durants ever playing another second,
Speaker 4: and the Sun's uniform, I can't. I mean that unfortunately,
Speaker 4: was a very ugly roll of the ankle. The thing
Speaker 4: rolled all the way over. I just can't imagine it's
Speaker 4: coming back this season, And obviously the anticipation is he's
Speaker 4: likely to get traded this summer and you know so,
Speaker 4: and the Sun's scheduled down the stretch is brutal. I
Speaker 4: just can't imagine the Suns. Are you going to catch them?
Speaker 4: And look, the Matters right now are sitting in ninth place.
Speaker 4: The Kings are falling apart too. So I think the
Speaker 4: Matters are a playing team and might even host the
Speaker 4: first playing game. You know, I will be shocked if
Speaker 4: they actually make it out of the play in. I'll
Speaker 4: be shocked if they because I would mean beating I mean, hell,
Speaker 4: it might end up being Memphis or Golden State Clippers
Speaker 4: or the Wolves. It would be one of those four
Speaker 4: teams waiting in not in you know, the second round.
Speaker 4: I guess you would call it the play in. I mean,
Speaker 4: but it's the one game thing, so you never know
Speaker 4: that the Matters might mess around and they're waiting to
Speaker 4: get their butts worked in the first round of the playoffs.
Speaker 2: You're hearing anything about who could make a play for
Speaker 2: Taylor Jenkins. Does he do a Quinn Snyder sabbatical down
Speaker 2: in Costa Rica before he coaches again?
Speaker 3: What do you think that looks like?
Speaker 4: Obviously we've got to see which jobs open up. I
Speaker 4: think Taylor is going to be top of the list
Speaker 4: in terms of available coaches this summer. You know, one
Speaker 4: job Frank is anticipated to be open as the Phoenix Suns.
Speaker 4: I think that I don't know that he will be
Speaker 4: a top candidate for that one, in particular simply because
Speaker 4: he is a Bud protege, and to fire Butd and
Speaker 4: replace the more one his potegees might be a little
Speaker 4: bit of a weird transition.
Speaker 2: To make right, tim before I said, you lose so
Speaker 2: almost on a weekly basis, the Western Conference topically has
Speaker 2: become like Okay, Oklahoma City is historically awesome. Who can
Speaker 2: make them uncomfortable? And over the past week and a half,
Speaker 2: I've had more than a couple of guests actually offer
Speaker 2: up Minnesota. I think we've heard a lot of Denver
Speaker 2: because of course they have Jokic and the Lakers have
Speaker 2: those two dudes. In Golden State has looked different since
Speaker 2: Jimmy Butler. But if you hont in on the Timberwolves,
Speaker 2: who probably are playing the best basketball they played all
Speaker 2: year long, what sort of ceiling do you think they
Speaker 2: present come playoff time?
Speaker 4: Yeah? My thing with the timber Wolves is they have
Speaker 4: one massive slot that is, they are a bad clutch team,
Speaker 4: and frankly, it's because in large part because Anthony Edwards.
Speaker 4: You know, his basketball immaturity shows up in those moments
Speaker 4: where he just reverts to playing complete hero ball. And
Speaker 4: I just think it's really difficult to be a bad
Speaker 4: clutch team and to make a playoff rum because obviously
Speaker 4: you're going to have to win close games. Except for
Speaker 4: I gets the series last year against the Nuggets where
Speaker 4: it was seven games of blowouts in each direction. But
Speaker 4: their team that went to the Western Conference Finals last
Speaker 4: year obviously a little bit different because Cats and Alonger
Speaker 4: there and that trade happened. You know, they are a
Speaker 4: team that can be one of the defensive teams in
Speaker 4: the league. So you know, you have to at least
Speaker 4: respect him as somebody that's not going to be an
Speaker 4: easy out. I would I would rank them pretty far
Speaker 4: down the list of real threats to the Thunder. But look, man,
Speaker 4: whether it's Minnesota or the Clippers, maybe even the Warriors
Speaker 4: or the Grizzlies, it's not like the Thunder get some
Speaker 4: kind of layup in the first round.
Speaker 3: No they don't.
Speaker 2: They just continue to win at a really high clip.
Speaker 2: All Right, my friend, appreciate the time today. Have a
Speaker 2: great week wherever you're traveling, do that safely and well.
Speaker 3: Chat too.
Speaker 4: I appreciate chat.
Speaker 3: Civic Van covers the NBA for ESPN.
Speaker 2: He just released his first book, The Wonder Boy Luka
Speaker 2: Doncic in the Curse of Greatness. You can get the
Speaker 2: Lanks do all of his work up on his Twitter page,
Speaker 2: which is out of ESPN Underscore.
Speaker 3: McMahon