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<v Speaker 1>Van McMahon, Van McMahan. That is being old Land, Texas

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<v Speaker 1>flood as tickets mud, He's man Mcmahvan McMahan.

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<v Speaker 2>Then the massive snowstorm we had last night of this

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<v Speaker 2>morning has disappeared and it's sunny here in downtown Salt

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<v Speaker 2>Lake City, Utah.

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<v Speaker 3>Because this date is really weird.

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<v Speaker 2>Good stuff from Tom Haberstroke Today, we'll get back to

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<v Speaker 2>some of the college stuff with Ken Pomeroy.

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<v Speaker 3>We got Pablo on the program as well.

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<v Speaker 2>RSL back in action taking on the La Galaxy coming up.

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<v Speaker 3>But it is time now.

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<v Speaker 2>For our weekly conversation with one of our favorites from ESPN,

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<v Speaker 2>the author of the book that's out now, The Wonder

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<v Speaker 2>Boy on Luka Doncic's great to have Tim McMahon back

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<v Speaker 2>on the show on a Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 3>Happy Tuesday, Tim, how.

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<v Speaker 4>We doing, pahty partner. I appreciate you having.

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<v Speaker 3>Me appreciate the time.

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<v Speaker 2>So, for the first time in jazz history, we have

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<v Speaker 2>a team that has lost sixty plus.

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<v Speaker 3>Games one two, three, can coon you can tell that.

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<v Speaker 2>Look you know the deal, not just players, coaches, front

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<v Speaker 2>office guys, front office members, broadcasters. I think everybody is

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<v Speaker 2>ready for the season to be over only six games

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<v Speaker 2>left him.

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<v Speaker 3>What do you have to say to Jazz fans?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I don't know why you're being so negative. I

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<v Speaker 4>just literally grabbed a package from my front door and

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<v Speaker 4>I opened it up. And it is a nice little

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<v Speaker 4>promotional thing for Isaiah Callier for all rookie there's those

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<v Speaker 4>big mountain lift passes type of things going on. There's

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<v Speaker 4>nice photography. I thought it was a well done promotional

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<v Speaker 4>campaign for a man who broke John Stockton's assist record

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<v Speaker 4>last night. Now I guess one of Johnston. I guess

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<v Speaker 4>John Stockton probably has some other assist records now I

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<v Speaker 4>think about it, but he did break the franchise a

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<v Speaker 4>rookie assist record. Nice little season and of the number

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<v Speaker 4>twenty nine overall pick. You know me a guy who

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<v Speaker 4>finds silver linings while I'm up on those mountain chair

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<v Speaker 4>lift type of things. And now I have to pass

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<v Speaker 4>four thanks to Isaiah Colliers house standing rookie season. So

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<v Speaker 4>why don't we talk about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Let's do John Stockton as a rookie started five games

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<v Speaker 2>and played eighteen minutes a night.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh well, g whizz, Ain't that a bitch? You know?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that this means that callier's on his way

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<v Speaker 4>to like fifteen thousand, nine hundred more assists or so.

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<v Speaker 3>I will say this.

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<v Speaker 2>You know I was because when the Jazz released this

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<v Speaker 2>promotional campaign, you start looking around at this rookie class.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually think he has a chance to him to

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<v Speaker 2>make all Rookie I don't know that he will, but

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<v Speaker 2>I when you look at he's thirty two percent from

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<v Speaker 2>three since the All Star break, which isn't good, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's better than twenty three percent. The crew irony is

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<v Speaker 2>the best picks the Jazz have made since they started

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<v Speaker 2>this project have been in the late maybe second round

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<v Speaker 2>with Philipowski. But do you think Isaiah's got a shot

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<v Speaker 2>to make call rookie?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he's a shot. I mean, look, first of all,

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<v Speaker 4>most guys who may call rookie teams aren't playing for

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<v Speaker 4>very good teams for obvious reasons. You know, typically the

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<v Speaker 4>rookies who play a lot aren't on good teams. There

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<v Speaker 4>are some exceptions, you know, Jalen Wells and Zachy from

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<v Speaker 4>the Grizzlies, although there's a different sort of issue there.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know, I think both those guys end up

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<v Speaker 4>making it. But you know, he has had a good

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<v Speaker 4>rookie season. Talking about Collier, now, as you say, preferably,

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<v Speaker 4>you'd like for the guy you had in the you

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<v Speaker 4>drafted the lottery to be the candidate that you're promoting

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<v Speaker 4>later on. But uh, you know, Collier's got a chance

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<v Speaker 4>to be a nice player, and he's off to a

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<v Speaker 4>promising start. And you know, the thing about Collier is

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<v Speaker 4>there was a point in time where he was expected

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<v Speaker 4>to be maybe even an early lottery pick, and obviously

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<v Speaker 4>didn't have the kind of season people anticipated last year

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<v Speaker 4>for USC So you know, he's not your tip number

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<v Speaker 4>twenty nine overall pick in terms of the Kgule upside.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, the Kyle Philipowski pick in the second round.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we've talked about this a couple of different times. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the two top ten picks the Jazz have

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<v Speaker 2>had since this I know I'm supposed to say tear down,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm going to say rebuild. Since this all started,

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<v Speaker 2>Taylor Hendrix, who we don't know. You know, Taylor got hurt.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll wait and see what he turns into. I actually

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<v Speaker 2>like him as much as any of these young prospects.

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<v Speaker 3>We just need to see more.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Cody Cody Williams and you know, Tom Aberstrow,

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<v Speaker 2>your buddy. Last segment, you know, dropped the Haberstrow numbers

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<v Speaker 2>on us and Cody as the worst you know player

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<v Speaker 2>efficiency number based off of rookies played more than a

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<v Speaker 2>thousand minutes in the history of the NBA. And I

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<v Speaker 2>just think you want your top ten pick because will

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<v Speaker 2>has gone all in over the past, you know, six

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<v Speaker 2>eight weeks or so on, giving these rookies opportunities, starting them,

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<v Speaker 2>playing them big minutes, including Cody and Tim. I can

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<v Speaker 2>point to all of them, Isaiah Keyante, I could keep going,

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<v Speaker 2>Bryce Sensaba's been knocking down shots. All of them have

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<v Speaker 2>shown in stretches that they do have NBA skill sets

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<v Speaker 2>besides Cody, and he's your top ten guy. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if you talk to him over there, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>only twenty, but is there any worry that this may

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<v Speaker 2>have been a swing and a miss?

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, you know, naturally there has to be worried.

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<v Speaker 4>I would say, you know, giving up on him would

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<v Speaker 4>be prevatures. He's still a.

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<v Speaker 3>Teenager, he's twenty. He's a young twenty year old.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure, so I would say, you know, declare making

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<v Speaker 4>any kind of like permanent declarations would be premature, but hey,

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<v Speaker 4>it's there's not been a whole lot of reason to

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<v Speaker 4>be optimistic, you know, as far as what he's shown

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<v Speaker 4>on the floor for you this season.

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<v Speaker 2>If the Jazz get Cooper Flag, what does that look

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<v Speaker 2>like immediately right away?

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<v Speaker 3>Next year?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, it looks like they've got a guy to

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<v Speaker 4>build around, They've got a face the franchise. I don't

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<v Speaker 4>think it means that they're going to be competitive right away,

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<v Speaker 4>but it means that there's you know, a clear foundation piece,

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<v Speaker 4>which you know, as of right now, that guy is

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<v Speaker 4>not necessarily there's really not like the big foundation piece

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<v Speaker 4>on the roster at all. I think the question is

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<v Speaker 4>can market them be your second or third best player

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<v Speaker 4>once you get good and then you know Walker Kess.

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<v Speaker 4>I think is is a complementary piece and potentially can

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<v Speaker 4>be for a long time. But look, the Jazz are

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<v Speaker 4>in desperate need of a franchise player, and Cooper Flag

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<v Speaker 4>would step into that void right away. Doesn't mean like, look,

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<v Speaker 4>there's no such thing as a guarantee. You know, nobody

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<v Speaker 4>is guaranteed to be a superstar, but you know he's

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<v Speaker 4>pretty close to it.

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<v Speaker 3>So typically in the history of the NBA.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're a twenty five year old generational talent, you

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<v Speaker 2>don't get traded. And if you're a really good young

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<v Speaker 2>head coach who has brought your team to a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of wins playoff berths with what appeared to be good

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<v Speaker 2>progress training for and I think the piece that Ramona

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<v Speaker 2>Shelburne and you guys did over at ESPN today on

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<v Speaker 2>Taylor Jenkins is really good downline some of the offensive

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<v Speaker 2>changes that they made with some of the international coaching hires,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know how I think it was all and

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<v Speaker 2>eleven against winning teams. I still tim am very shocked

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<v Speaker 2>that Taylor Jenkins lost his job. Now that it's been

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<v Speaker 2>a little while and time has passed, what exactly happened here.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, he got's knees cut out from under him last

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<v Speaker 4>summer when he was forced to fire five assistant coaches

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<v Speaker 4>ob basically you know, gutted his staff and uh, you

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<v Speaker 4>know had to bring you know, and he was part

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<v Speaker 4>of the interview process, but these weren't his hires that

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<v Speaker 4>he brought in. And then he brings, you know, they

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<v Speaker 4>the Grizzlies bring in the front office, brought in two guys.

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<v Speaker 4>One is now their interim coach tauomas Zallo, who you know,

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<v Speaker 4>was kind of considered, oh, this guy's this bright, rising

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<v Speaker 4>offensive mine in Europe, but you know it coached the

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<v Speaker 4>euro Cup championship team last year. Okay, you bring him in.

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<v Speaker 4>And then Noel the Road, who's a player development guy

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<v Speaker 4>I was doing some consulting stuff for the Spurs. Had

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<v Speaker 4>some really interesting, unique conferensive ideas, but those guys' ideas

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<v Speaker 4>didn't really mesh and so you had this tug of war.

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<v Speaker 4>And so, look, everybody in the league knew that Taylor

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<v Speaker 4>Jenkins probably wasn't going to be back with the Grizzlies

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<v Speaker 4>next year. You don't have your staff gutted like that

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<v Speaker 4>and then give up control of your offense to two

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<v Speaker 4>guys who you didn't know until the interview process started

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<v Speaker 4>over the summer without your job being in jeopardy. The

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<v Speaker 4>anticipation was the Grizzies would get bounced in the first round,

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<v Speaker 4>then it would be done. So the surprise with Taylor

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<v Speaker 4>was that it happened when it did. That happened with

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<v Speaker 4>nine games left in the regular season. The bigger surprise

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<v Speaker 4>to people who've been following the Grizzlies this season though,

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<v Speaker 4>was that Noel la Ross also got fired. This is

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<v Speaker 4>a guy they gave him a seven figure salary to

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<v Speaker 4>leave the player development program, but then he was essentially

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<v Speaker 4>serving as their offensive coordinator and all this new kind

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<v Speaker 4>of interesting, creative stuff that they were doing this year,

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<v Speaker 4>very unique stuff that they were doing this year was his.

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<v Speaker 4>So what that means and by the way, Joe hated

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<v Speaker 4>it because they've set in the few ball screens and

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<v Speaker 4>Drew Landolph since the tracking stuff started more than a

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<v Speaker 4>decade ago. So what this really means is, Okay, Taylor

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<v Speaker 4>wasn't going to make it after the season, let's just

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<v Speaker 4>do it now. And then they went away from a

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<v Speaker 4>system that had worked to a certain degree. I was

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<v Speaker 4>really creative and unique, but their face, the franchise hated it.

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<v Speaker 4>So this is an attempt to, as somebody there told me,

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<v Speaker 4>to try to optimize Jaw, and really it's an attempt

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<v Speaker 4>to try to make Jaw happy because there's also been

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of noise, and not the drinking's part of it,

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<v Speaker 4>but getting rid of Nola erosion and the offensive systems

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<v Speaker 4>and attempts to make Jaw happy because there has been

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of noise about Jaw's not happy, Jos. You

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<v Speaker 4>know what's going to happen with John Memphis? Is that

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<v Speaker 4>going to be Is that going to be something that

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<v Speaker 4>bubbles up this summer? And you know, I would say

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<v Speaker 4>we will see about all that, but doing it the

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<v Speaker 4>way the whole last year in Memphis has been messy

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<v Speaker 4>from a coaching staff perspective.

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<v Speaker 3>Was there any input?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Ja's also twenty five, you know, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>looking at the Memphis situation maybe through the prism of

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<v Speaker 2>what we deal with here in Utah with the Jazz

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<v Speaker 2>roster there right now, in ability to compete at a

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<v Speaker 2>high level, like you could do a lot worse than

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<v Speaker 2>what Memphis is and who they've been, and you could

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<v Speaker 2>do a lot worse than Taylor Jenkins as a head coach.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not like that's a bad roster. They do

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<v Speaker 2>have a cornerstone and John Moran. Do you know if

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<v Speaker 2>there was any feedback from Jah or his camp that

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted to make this change based off of your

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<v Speaker 2>comments on how upset he seemed to be with his

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<v Speaker 2>offensive system.

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<v Speaker 4>So again, I don't think Joe wanted to play in

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<v Speaker 4>that offensive system anymore. So I think the firing him

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<v Speaker 4>know is an attempt to try to appease John Moran

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<v Speaker 4>my understanding, as none of this was discussed with him

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<v Speaker 4>directly beforehand. But that's the firing of the seven figure

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<v Speaker 4>assistant who's sitting on the second row pulling the strings

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<v Speaker 4>of the offense. The firing of Taylor Jenkins is not

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<v Speaker 4>something that Jaw pushed for. I don't know if it's

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<v Speaker 4>something to Job even wanted it at all. I don't

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<v Speaker 4>know if any issues there now. I was told that

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<v Speaker 4>Taylor had quote unquote lost the locker room and the players,

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<v Speaker 4>including Jaw, had tuned him out. But guess what, that's

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<v Speaker 4>the kind of thing that happens when you cut the

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<v Speaker 4>coach off at his knees by making him cut his

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<v Speaker 4>whole staff and bringing people that doesn't know and turn

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<v Speaker 4>over the offense to people that he just met. Like,

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<v Speaker 4>players aren't dumb, they can read the tea leaves on that.

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<v Speaker 4>And so he lost the locker room. G whiz who

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<v Speaker 4>you know? Of course he did, you new to the

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<v Speaker 4>guy for everybody to see.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the other assistants they brought in didn't

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<v Speaker 2>just keep his job. He was elevated to the interim

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<v Speaker 2>in this Tamasa Salo finished coach who is now the

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<v Speaker 2>interim head coach. Is what is your understanding as far

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<v Speaker 2>as the difference between uh this this coach and then

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<v Speaker 2>Laroch who was fired. I mean, he obviously has the

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<v Speaker 2>respect and admiration of somebody because he has the job now.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so he actually his system is much more pick

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<v Speaker 4>and roll based. You know, there are some creative elements

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<v Speaker 4>of that, but again where they were setting by far

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<v Speaker 4>the fewest ball screens in the NBA, like ten feel

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<v Speaker 4>per game than anybody else. His is more of a

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<v Speaker 4>pick and roll based system. And look, job, John doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>want to be off the ball and cutting and you know,

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<v Speaker 4>moving like John wants the rock in his hands and

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<v Speaker 4>he wants to he wants to have the keys and

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<v Speaker 4>be in charge. And so they're going back to a

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<v Speaker 4>more pick and roll based offense, you know, which obvious

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<v Speaker 4>he's more in line with everybody else in the NBA.

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<v Speaker 4>You know. The interesting thing about it, though, is the

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<v Speaker 4>Grizzlies are you know, when they made the firings, were

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<v Speaker 4>the six ranks offense in the NBA, and they had

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<v Speaker 4>started to incorporate more of the pick and roll stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>which is kind of a way to try to appease

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<v Speaker 4>Jaw in the first place. But the other thing is

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<v Speaker 4>Jah is a mediocre pick and roll player. Over the

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<v Speaker 4>course of his career, points per possession when there's a

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<v Speaker 4>pick and roll for Jah zero point ninety nine the ranks.

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<v Speaker 4>Thirty ninth got a fifty six skys who have had

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<v Speaker 4>at least five thousand ball screen set forms since he

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<v Speaker 4>started his career. Like, that's like the epitome of mediocre.

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<v Speaker 2>I was shocked to read that, because I think the

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<v Speaker 2>assumption is he's so impossible with his with the ball

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<v Speaker 2>in his hands, whether it's ISO or whether it's with

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<v Speaker 2>the assistance of a screen, that you would just think

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<v Speaker 2>to John Moran being John Moran is one of the

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<v Speaker 2>elite scores off the ball screen in the NBA.

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<v Speaker 3>I was surprised to read that today.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, John Moran is absolutely one of the best transition players,

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<v Speaker 4>may be the best. I mean, I guess, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we could talk about Johannis with some other guys, but

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<v Speaker 4>John Morant pushing the pace cham Ran in the open floor,

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<v Speaker 4>is without question one of the best players, one of

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<v Speaker 4>the best offensive threats in the NBA. You know, sometimes

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<v Speaker 4>the ISO stuff, well if Jock can get downhill, There's

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<v Speaker 4>no doubt he's awesome. But pick and roll, Like, dude,

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<v Speaker 4>you're just going to go under the screen on them,

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<v Speaker 4>like if if John's going to step in the jump

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<v Speaker 4>shots playing pick and roll. You live with that all

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<v Speaker 4>day long. And so when you can just go under

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<v Speaker 4>screens on a guy, it makes it a lot easier

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<v Speaker 4>to defend them.

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<v Speaker 2>So before I set you loose, Tim, actually no two questions. First,

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<v Speaker 2>Alex Jensen, of course, and you head coach if Utah

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<v Speaker 2>men's basketball is going to finish out the season with

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<v Speaker 2>the Dallas Mavericks. In for a minute, I thought that

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<v Speaker 2>meant at the end of the regular season, are they

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<v Speaker 2>going to be in the plane? How long is Alex

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<v Speaker 2>going to be with Dallas? How long is the season

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<v Speaker 2>going to last?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, they'll be in the plane because the Suns are smoke.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know that Kevin Durants ever playing another second,

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<v Speaker 4>and the Sun's uniform, I can't. I mean that unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 4>was a very ugly roll of the ankle. The thing

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<v Speaker 4>rolled all the way over. I just can't imagine it's

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<v Speaker 4>coming back this season, And obviously the anticipation is he's

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<v Speaker 4>likely to get traded this summer and you know so,

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<v Speaker 4>and the Sun's scheduled down the stretch is brutal. I

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<v Speaker 4>just can't imagine the Suns. Are you going to catch them?

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<v Speaker 4>And look, the Matters right now are sitting in ninth place.

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<v Speaker 4>The Kings are falling apart too. So I think the

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<v Speaker 4>Matters are a playing team and might even host the

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<v Speaker 4>first playing game. You know, I will be shocked if

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<v Speaker 4>they actually make it out of the play in. I'll

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<v Speaker 4>be shocked if they because I would mean beating I mean, hell,

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<v Speaker 4>it might end up being Memphis or Golden State Clippers

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<v Speaker 4>or the Wolves. It would be one of those four

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<v Speaker 4>teams waiting in not in you know, the second round.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess you would call it the play in. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's the one game thing, so you never know

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<v Speaker 4>that the Matters might mess around and they're waiting to

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<v Speaker 4>get their butts worked in the first round of the playoffs.

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<v Speaker 2>You're hearing anything about who could make a play for

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<v Speaker 2>Taylor Jenkins. Does he do a Quinn Snyder sabbatical down

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<v Speaker 2>in Costa Rica before he coaches again?

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<v Speaker 3>What do you think that looks like?

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<v Speaker 4>Obviously we've got to see which jobs open up. I

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<v Speaker 4>think Taylor is going to be top of the list

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of available coaches this summer. You know, one

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<v Speaker 4>job Frank is anticipated to be open as the Phoenix Suns.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that I don't know that he will be

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<v Speaker 4>a top candidate for that one, in particular simply because

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<v Speaker 4>he is a Bud protege, and to fire Butd and

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<v Speaker 4>replace the more one his potegees might be a little

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<v Speaker 4>bit of a weird transition.

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<v Speaker 2>To make right, tim before I said, you lose so

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<v Speaker 2>almost on a weekly basis, the Western Conference topically has

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<v Speaker 2>become like Okay, Oklahoma City is historically awesome. Who can

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<v Speaker 2>make them uncomfortable? And over the past week and a half,

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<v Speaker 2>I've had more than a couple of guests actually offer

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<v Speaker 2>up Minnesota. I think we've heard a lot of Denver

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<v Speaker 2>because of course they have Jokic and the Lakers have

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<v Speaker 2>those two dudes. In Golden State has looked different since

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<v Speaker 2>Jimmy Butler. But if you hont in on the Timberwolves,

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<v Speaker 2>who probably are playing the best basketball they played all

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<v Speaker 2>year long, what sort of ceiling do you think they

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<v Speaker 2>present come playoff time?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? My thing with the timber Wolves is they have

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<v Speaker 4>one massive slot that is, they are a bad clutch team,

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<v Speaker 4>and frankly, it's because in large part because Anthony Edwards.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, his basketball immaturity shows up in those moments

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<v Speaker 4>where he just reverts to playing complete hero ball. And

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<v Speaker 4>I just think it's really difficult to be a bad

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<v Speaker 4>clutch team and to make a playoff rum because obviously

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<v Speaker 4>you're going to have to win close games. Except for

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<v Speaker 4>I gets the series last year against the Nuggets where

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<v Speaker 4>it was seven games of blowouts in each direction. But

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<v Speaker 4>their team that went to the Western Conference Finals last

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<v Speaker 4>year obviously a little bit different because Cats and Alonger

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<v Speaker 4>there and that trade happened. You know, they are a

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<v Speaker 4>team that can be one of the defensive teams in

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<v Speaker 4>the league. So you know, you have to at least

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<v Speaker 4>respect him as somebody that's not going to be an

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<v Speaker 4>easy out. I would I would rank them pretty far

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<v Speaker 4>down the list of real threats to the Thunder. But look, man,

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<v Speaker 4>whether it's Minnesota or the Clippers, maybe even the Warriors

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<v Speaker 4>or the Grizzlies, it's not like the Thunder get some

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<v Speaker 4>kind of layup in the first round.

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<v Speaker 3>No they don't.

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<v Speaker 2>They just continue to win at a really high clip.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, my friend, appreciate the time today. Have a

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<v Speaker 2>great week wherever you're traveling, do that safely and well.

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<v Speaker 3>Chat too.

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<v Speaker 4>I appreciate chat.

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<v Speaker 3>Civic Van covers the NBA for ESPN.

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<v Speaker 2>He just released his first book, The Wonder Boy Luka

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<v Speaker 2>Doncic in the Curse of Greatness. You can get the

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<v Speaker 2>Lanks do all of his work up on his Twitter page,

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<v Speaker 2>which is out of ESPN Underscore.

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<v Speaker 3>McMahon