1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,359 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:40,759 --> 00:00:43,759 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 14 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:47,840 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by author Bruce Goldfarbe, 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,240 talking to us about his book Eighteen Tiny Deaths, The 16 00:00:51,359 --> 00:00:55,600 Untold Story of the Woman who invented modern forensics. Bruce, 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,159 thank you so much for joining us today. 18 00:00:57,799 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be 19 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,240 talking about one of my favorite subjects. 20 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 3: Start by telling us a little bit about yourself and 21 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,519 how you got involved in writing about true crime. 22 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 4: I started out as a young man as an EMT 23 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,640 and a paramedic and a frustrated firefighter, and eased my 24 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,319 way into freelance writing. I didn't really have an interest 25 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:22,239 in true crime so much as I was writing about 26 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:26,439 science and medicine. That's, in a very roundabout way got 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,439 me working at the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,959 for the State of Maryland, where they had they located 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,519 the nutshell studies of unexplained that. So I had this 30 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,920 opportunity to spend time with the dioramas. I actually ended 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,519 up being the curator of them, to learn more about 32 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:44,599 them and other facts that were associated with them, like 33 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,439 Francis Plistner Lee who created them, and how they were used. 34 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:50,480 And I just I don't know what to say. It 35 00:01:50,519 --> 00:01:52,760 was the path of least resistance. And here I am. 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,359 Speaker 2: Tell us, how many years back is it your original 37 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:00,319 affiliation with the Office of the Medical Exacs. 38 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 4: Way back in the nineteen nineties, when I was an 39 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,239 independent writer, a freelance writer, I was very mercenary, so 40 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:09,360 I was strictly in it for the money. As a freelancer, 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,879 you have to make money whenever you can. One of 42 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,439 the publications I wrote for was American Medical News, which 43 00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:19,639 was the weekly newspaper of American Medical Association, and they 44 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:24,199 paid really well for feature stories about doctors. They love 45 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:27,719 stories about doctors who had vineyards through doctors who collected art. 46 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,800 And I wrote about a gang, a motorcycle gang of doctors. 47 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:35,639 And I wrote about a doctor who studied ancient Egyptian 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,840 pyramid pyrit manuscripts. And I had heard about these diorromas 49 00:02:40,879 --> 00:02:43,039 that were at the Medical Examiner's office. This was in 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,639 the early nineteen nineties, I believe ninety one ninety two, 51 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,639 and I just did this one off story. I just 52 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,680 did a feature story for America Medical News about these 53 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,039 dioramas of death that were used to train death investigators, 54 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,719 and that was it. I thought it was done with it. 55 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,439 The story kept coming back to me. People asked me 56 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:03,039 to arrange a visit, and I kept coming back to 57 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,439 the Medical Examiner's office again and again. They got to 58 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:09,639 know me there. In twenty twelve, I was working for 59 00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:13,520 as an editor for some hyper local news website and 60 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,360 arranged for a tour at the Medical Examiner's office for 61 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:19,879 a group of editors. And while we're on the tour, 62 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,479 they mentioned that they had this position as an assistant 63 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,960 for the chief who'll be working in the Chief's office, 64 00:03:26,439 --> 00:03:30,240 would be the public information officer for the OCME and 65 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,360 would do troubleshooting. An ideal candidate would be a say, 66 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:38,759 an EMT with the newswriting experience, and it was pretty 67 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,599 much ideal for me. So I got the job, and 68 00:03:41,879 --> 00:03:45,280 that's when I began working much closer with the dioramas. 69 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:47,639 It was actually because I was the low man in 70 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:49,879 the total pole. I was the new guy, and they 71 00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:52,039 basically threw the keys at me, and they said, it's 72 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,520 your problem. Now you can deal with it. You changed 73 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,479 the light bulbs, and you deal with it. So great. 74 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,240 It was an ordinary experience to look inside and to 75 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,919 see how they were made, and to see details that 76 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,360 were never captured on any images, and secrets that they held, 77 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,159 and all kinds of things. It was an extraordinary experience. 78 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit more detail about 79 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,680 what these dioramas look like and why they were referred 80 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,720 to as nutshell studies? 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 4: Sure. Francis Klesner Lee, who created them, was affiliated with 82 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,920 Harvard Medical School, where she had established a program up there, 83 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:34,680 and she and the chairman of the department doctor Alan 84 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:39,879 Moritz had. At the time, there were no real homicide detectives. 85 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,600 The police were not necessarily the best in the brightest. 86 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,639 A lot of them were functionally illiterate. They weren't high 87 00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:50,959 school graduates. There were big, strong brutes who could be 88 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,240 didn't have to have interviewing skills or critical thinking skills 89 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,399 if you could beat a confession out of somebody, and 90 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:00,920 the cops were big dumb guys. She under took to 91 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,879 train police and scientific methods of death investigation what we 92 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,040 now know of as forensic science and forensic medicine, and 93 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:12,439 she was the one to really introduce this in a 94 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:16,759 systematic educational way. She began the seminar in nineteen forty five, 95 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,279 and participants in this program would learn about sharp force 96 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,720 injuries and blunt force injuries, and poisoning and drowning, all 97 00:05:24,759 --> 00:05:29,360 these death related topics, but the most important piece was 98 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,839 the crime scene itself, because you only have one chance 99 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,680 to do things right, and up until that time they weren't. 100 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:40,560 They would move evidence, they would move the body, they 101 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,879 would walk through blood, they would handle things. And she 102 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,040 had this problem of how do you teach somebody to 103 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,879 observe a crime scene. How do you teach somebody to 104 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,279 look and they talked it through. You really couldn't do 105 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:57,759 it by a moving picture. You'd have to zoom in, 106 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,720 and what it is you want somebody to see, image 107 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:02,959 doesn't really quite capture it. I could show you a 108 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,519 picture of evidence, but that's really not the same thing 109 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:09,360 as standing there and making you find it yourself. And 110 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:11,279 that's the first step that you need to be able 111 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:15,439 to recognize evidence so you can preserve it, so you 112 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,519 can collect it, so you can process it properly, and 113 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:21,120 then analyze it properly. But the very first thing is 114 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,959 recognizing it preserving it. If you don't preserve it up front, 115 00:06:24,079 --> 00:06:26,439 everything else is the whole trajectory of everything is ruined. 116 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,600 This was her solution, was to make little crime scenes. 117 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:35,079 Because they were mainly the police were mostly men, adult men. 118 00:06:35,319 --> 00:06:37,720 She wanted to make sure that they were not toilet like, 119 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,720 so she went to great lengths to make sure that 120 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:44,680 these were as realistic as possible. She never used the 121 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,240 expression to suspend disbelief, but she wanted somebody to get 122 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,160 immersed in this little world. And so they're all built 123 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:53,360 on a scale of one inch to one foot, which 124 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:57,399 is a standard sized for miniatures, and they're mostly domestic 125 00:06:57,439 --> 00:07:01,439 scenes and residences. These are people of all walks of life. 126 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,279 There are some sex workers, there's a lot of alcohol 127 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:07,439 and violence, and there's some domestic violence, and it really 128 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:11,040 does reflect, I think, lifestyles that were removed from her 129 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,079 own life. She was very much a wealthy woman of 130 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,439 society and memes, so that's what she did. I've described 131 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,800 them as nineteen forties virtual reality, but I've had many 132 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,600 homicide detectives tell me that it is about as close 133 00:07:24,639 --> 00:07:26,560 as you can get to a real crime scene. 134 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: It's interesting to me that Francis Klesner Lee is not 135 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,879 your typical grandmotherly type of lady. We were saying off air. 136 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:39,000 She's a badass, she's a force of nature, and she's 137 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,759 certainly not your typical forensic scientist. Why was it so 138 00:07:43,079 --> 00:07:46,279 unusual for women to be involved in fields like medicine 139 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,120 and forensics in the early part of the twentieth century. 140 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,519 We've got people now, I'm sure who can't imagine a 141 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,480 time in which one would not have been involved with this. 142 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,800 Can you shed some light on that historical component? 143 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,639 Speaker 4: There were some women in medicine at the time, Actually 144 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,879 in an nineteenth century, I believe there was something like 145 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:07,199 twelve or fourteen women's medical schools. It was not there. Granted, 146 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:09,519 there were not as many women doctors then as there 147 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:13,360 are now, but certainly in law enforcement was almost exclusively 148 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,120 a men's club from the very beginning, back from the 149 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,240 night watch days in the colonial times. And it really 150 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,120 wasn't until right around the turn of the twentieth century 151 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,600 that you start women were actually recruited in the police 152 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,000 first to look for a juvenile delinquency and in the 153 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,960 tenement it's almost like social work. It took a while 154 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,120 for women to be given badges and the arrest powers 155 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,759 and the uniform that came later on, but even in 156 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,039 the nineteen there were women. I believe in nineteen twenty 157 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,840 five there were actually women detectives in New York City, 158 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,879 And to follow through on that point, even today in 159 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:55,279 twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four, although there are quite 160 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:00,000 a few women in the police force in uniformed police office, 161 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:04,360 once you go up in the command into the officers 162 00:09:04,519 --> 00:09:07,879 and chiefs, there's not so many. So there's still quite 163 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:10,720 a ways to go in terms of any sort of equality. 164 00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:14,399 But it always was a men's club, and it was 165 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,600 just had always been that way, mainly because it involves violence. 166 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:23,519 And there certainly was this belief that women who were 167 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,639 too delicate constitution to be dealing with such shocking matters. 168 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:31,840 It took some time for there to find their role, 169 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,080 and she just totally broke through all of that. Francis 170 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:37,200 Glestner Lee did. 171 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,919 Speaker 3: That glass ceiling was definitely not there for her. 172 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,039 Speaker 4: Because she had the money, because she could afford it. 173 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,080 She had a very powerful personality, and when you're a millionairess, 174 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,000 you can get people to pay attention to you. 175 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: That was actually going to be my next question, how 176 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,200 did she use her wealth and her position in society 177 00:09:56,279 --> 00:09:59,360 to her advantage, because she clearly did, and I don't 178 00:09:59,399 --> 00:10:01,120 falter for that, Absolutely she should. 179 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:04,639 Speaker 4: I wish there were more like her. She was born 180 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,559 into wealth, it wasn't her fault. Her parents were wealthy, 181 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,720 and she always felt that she hadn't earned her privilege 182 00:10:12,759 --> 00:10:16,480 and really felt unneed. In learning about her life, I 183 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,360 found that she was dissatisfied. She was looking for something 184 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:23,679 to do, something meaningful. Really, she could have spent her 185 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,480 life going to cocktail receptions and collecting art and traveling 186 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,840 and doing these things that wealthy people do, and nobody 187 00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:31,639 would have been a wiser and nobody would have blamed 188 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,399 her for it. But she chose to use her money 189 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,559 like a parrot and a stick, and she would dangle 190 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,159 her money to manipulate others to do her bidding, and 191 00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:45,080 she got Harvard Medical School to do things for her 192 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,840 and to begin this program by promising them boatloads of money. 193 00:10:49,159 --> 00:10:54,279 She had a very powerful personality. She was very difficult, 194 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:58,159 she was strong willed, she was smart as a whip. 195 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:01,919 She had been very wealthy, trained and tutored from an 196 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:06,759 early age, and she was fluent in multiple languages, mathematics 197 00:11:06,799 --> 00:11:09,559 and sciences and arts and culture. You're raised like that, 198 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:11,799 and then what you've got your life and you're going 199 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,200 to go to another museum, opening another gallery, talk about 200 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,279 decorative arts. She really was looking for something challenging to 201 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,840 send her teeth into it, and she found it in forensic medicine. 202 00:11:23,039 --> 00:11:26,919 Speaker 2: Do you know why she was initially so attracted to 203 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,879 this field, which is, let's face it pretty dark. There's 204 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:34,080 blood and guts and gore and violence, and this just 205 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,799 seems out of the norm for women at that time. 206 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:41,159 What was it about this field that grabbed her? Attention. 207 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:45,159 Speaker 4: She had a sense of justice. Really, if you read 208 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,519 about Francis Clesderley online, she's depicted as this wealthy grandmother 209 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,159 who had an interest in murder and solving murders, and 210 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,919 it's absolutely not true. She never investigated the case herself, 211 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,879 and just as we have the Innocence Project today, she 212 00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:05,480 was as concerned, if not more concerned about people who 213 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,759 were wrongfully accused of crimes. It's just as important to 214 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,799 clear the innocent as it is to convict the guilty. 215 00:12:12,879 --> 00:12:15,559 There are two sides of the same coin. It's about 216 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,440 getting the right person. That was initially what got her interest. 217 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:22,919 She had a friend, it was actually her brother's best 218 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,039 friend who went to Harvard a doctor by the name 219 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:31,000 of George Burgess McGrath. And doctor McGrath was the medical 220 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:34,720 examiner in Suffolk County where Boston is, and he was 221 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,120 the first pathologist to be appointed as a medical examiner, 222 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:41,919 so he was literally's first forensic pathologist, and he was 223 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,679 involved in a number of these high profile cases. The 224 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:49,240 nineteen nineteen Boston molasses disaster was his case, the Saco 225 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,360 and Venzetti case, and so he had really gained this 226 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,799 reputation as a crime doctor really sherlocky, and it got 227 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:01,039 this reputation as for applying these scientific principles to death investigation. 228 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:04,120 And they spent some time together in nineteen twenty nine. 229 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,279 They had been friends since she was a teenager, but 230 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,159 it wasn't until nineteen twenty nine when they spent the 231 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,480 summer together and he's talking about his work and the 232 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,399 injustice of it, and how the country most of the 233 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,200 countries on the coroner system, and the difference in corners 234 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,399 of medical examiners, and it was literally like as though 235 00:13:21,399 --> 00:13:24,919 a switch was flipped in her brain. She was at 236 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:27,480 that time in a pretty dark place in her own life. 237 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,519 Her brother had died, her children had grown up and 238 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:34,240 been married, and she was very much alone and adrift 239 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,080 without anything to do really, and doctor McGrath came along 240 00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:40,240 and just threw this out here about we should have 241 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,200 medical examiners from coast to coast, and she said, yeah, 242 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,320 we should, and she just spent the rest of her 243 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,120 life to try and act what he had envisioned. 244 00:13:49,639 --> 00:13:51,879 Speaker 3: It's so cool. F Scott Fitzgerald said, there are no 245 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,559 second acts in American lives. And I feel like Francis 246 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,399 Klosner Lee's greatest part of her life was her second 247 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,440 act doing all of this amazing work for the criminal 248 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,039 justice system. As you mentioned before, it wasn't just the 249 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,720 Nutshell Studies and Harvard Medical. She was advocating for education 250 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,200 for death investigators. And do you feel like we have 251 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,360 done enough now to bring her dream to fruition or 252 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:20,480 do we still have a long way to go in 253 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,080 terms of reaching a point where she would look at 254 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,759 us and go, you know what, you guys are doing great? 255 00:14:25,399 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, very little has changed since her death in nineteen 256 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,879 sixty two when she got in. When Francis presently got 257 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,879 involved in nineteen twenty nine, medical examiners existed in three 258 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:41,279 places in the entire United States. They were Boston was 259 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,480 first in eighteen seventy seven, New York City was second 260 00:14:44,759 --> 00:14:48,879 in nineteen seventeen, nineteen eighteen, and New Jersey, which was 261 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:51,720 like nineteen twenty five, twenty six, something like that, and 262 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,120 that was it. The rest of the country was still 263 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,320 on the corner system, which is literally from the Middle Ages, 264 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:05,720 not terribly signed, typic not reliable, corrupt and competent. And she, 265 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:12,080 Francis single handedly, not only she spent literally millions to 266 00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:15,039 establish a training program at Harvard Medical School to train 267 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:19,639 doctors the first clinical program what was then called legal medicine. 268 00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:23,240 We now call it forensic medicine. But she created a 269 00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:26,200 field of medical practice from scratch, from the ground up. 270 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,559 She also lobbied at state lawmakers and governors to change 271 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,960 the law. It's a complicated process to move from corners 272 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,799 to medical examiners. In some cases, you have to change 273 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,559 the state constitution. You have to abolish the office, abolish 274 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:45,679 corners in quest change the law to authorize a medical examiner. 275 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,200 And this takes time. There's a lot of special interests 276 00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:54,559 against it. The corners obviously funeral homes tradition. When she 277 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:57,840 died in nineteen sixty two, she left about half the 278 00:15:57,879 --> 00:16:02,120 country still on the corner system. Today have coroners. There 279 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,440 are medical examiners in I believe twenty eight states coroners exclusively. 280 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:10,279 I believe in fourteen states, and the other states have 281 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,399 a combination of medical examiners and coroners. Illinois, for example, 282 00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:17,919 there's what one hundred counties. There are medical examiners in 283 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,799 Cook County and Chicago, but the rest of the state 284 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,639 is covered by these corners of various qualifications and experience. 285 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,799 Speaker 2: We had talked to doctor Michael Bodden a couple of 286 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:30,799 months ago on mind Over Murder, and he was very 287 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,840 critical of the coroner system and said how antiquated it 288 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,919 was and that many of these people that are coroners 289 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,240 have really little to know qualifications to make determinations about 290 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,000 how people have died or to determine whether crimes had 291 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,600 been committed. Is that how you think Francis saw it 292 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:50,080 as well? 293 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,799 Speaker 4: It's still true, Yes, that's exactly it. And she was 294 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,039 particularly critical of local sheriffs, who she had absolutely no 295 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,799 time for whatsoever. She had a lot regard for state 296 00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:04,839 police because they often had college degrees, they're disciplined, and 297 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,000 we're good at taking orders. She thought that state police 298 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:09,960 would be the ones that would be investigating debt, so 299 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,519 she focused on state police the corner situation. Of the 300 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:17,319 twenty eight states that have corners, only a third have 301 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,240 any sort of requirement at all for any counter call 302 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,880 educational requirement, and those that do require any sort of education, 303 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,440 where typically it's forty to eighty hours one to two 304 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,039 weeks of training. Not to pick on Missouri, this is 305 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:36,640 true in Missouri, Indiana, Colorado, New York. Places that elect 306 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,480 corners to office in the state of Missouri. To be 307 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:41,839 a corner, you have to live in the state for 308 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,720 one year. You have to live in that county where 309 00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:47,640 you want to practice for at least six months. You 310 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,200 have to be of legal age. To hold public office, 311 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,079 you have to be twenty one or older, and you 312 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,839 have to get more votes than anybody else. That's it. 313 00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:56,240 It's it. 314 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,599 Speaker 2: No medical requirements whatsoever. 315 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 4: Now out to be a licensed barber in the state 316 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,640 of Missouri, and to legally cut hair, you have to 317 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,400 have fifteen hundred hours of training and pass a test. 318 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,720 To be a manicurist and legally give a manicure, you 319 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,200 have to have five hundred hours of training and pass 320 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,359 the test. But if you're elected corner, you can crack 321 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,559 open a beer and start signing cause met or death 322 00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:22,160 and desertificuess you're good to go. 323 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 2: So now, the person that cuts your hair or styles 324 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:31,400 your nails has a significantly higher level of training and 325 00:18:31,519 --> 00:18:36,400 expertise than does the person who tells your relatives how 326 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,559 you died and by what method, and whether or not 327 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,240 perhaps a crime was committed. 328 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 4: Vast parts of the country today are covered by that 329 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,440 very system. 330 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: That's insane. 331 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: It really is. There's no other word for it. 332 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 4: I can't argue with you. It is insane. There should 333 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,440 be you would think in this day and age, people 334 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,319 love these TV shows, They watch the sea shows, and 335 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:07,039 they have the belief that anytime somebody dies, there is 336 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,759 a group of well trained professionals who come to the 337 00:19:09,799 --> 00:19:13,039 scene and they scrub and they find evidence, and they 338 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,839 test all these things in the laboratory. That does not 339 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:20,480 happen in most parts of the country. That's not the 340 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,960 way it works. You're lucky if you get somebody to 341 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,200 come to the house and look around. 342 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 343 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:34,680 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 344 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,160 mindover Murder. How does Francis Lesnarley get the idea that 345 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,960 she's going to use what I thought of when I 346 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,359 saw the photographs. They're almost like dollhouses, the rooms within 347 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:53,599 a dollhouse, but with extremely sad and often violent outcomes 348 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,839 portrayed an incredible detail. How did she dream up this idea? 349 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,880 I'm going to use use these little dioramas to train 350 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,720 these people who clearly need all the training they can get. 351 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,599 How did she dream up this idea? 352 00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 4: If you read the book. There's actually an evolution towards 353 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,519 the models. I believe it was the nineteen thirty six 354 00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:23,000 World's Fair that was the first time that legal medicine 355 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,039 for forensic medicine was presented to the public, and they did. 356 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:28,799 There was a very small exhibit, and this was their 357 00:20:28,839 --> 00:20:33,079 idea was to have the photograph of a car crash 358 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,680 and to ask the questions was this an accident or 359 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:39,960 was it murdered? So that had that idea had been tried, 360 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,960 presenting a case and asking questions about it, and it 361 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,960 got more and more evolved, apparently issues having a discussion 362 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,240 with the doctor McGrath at one point, he's talking about 363 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,680 a difficult case that he had and the difficulties that 364 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,480 in the courtroom in expressing to the jury exactly how 365 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:00,440 things were were, the way things were positioned and their 366 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,480 location and their relation to each other. And she suggested 367 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:06,200 at the time, what if we just made a little 368 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,319 model and presented that in court. So they actually do 369 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,039 that in cases today. It's not uncommon for a complicated scene, 370 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:16,119 they'll make a little model and they'll show that to 371 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,079 the jury as to where everything was. Having the need 372 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,079 you want to teach somebody to observe a crime scene. 373 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:25,480 There just weren't crime scenes when you needed them. You 374 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:28,519 just you know, and you can't take a whole class 375 00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:32,039 of people walking through a crime scene. Logistically, there's just 376 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:35,039 all these problems. And it was really she had this 377 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,640 background in the decroot of arts. Miniatures are much more 378 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,319 of a thing back and when she was a child, 379 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,200 and she had been trained since she was very little 380 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,759 in knitting and sewing and all these domestic arts. And 381 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,279 once again it was just she had the skill set 382 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,400 to apply to this problem of how do you teach 383 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,519 all just make little miniatures perfect? That's the answer. And 384 00:21:58,839 --> 00:22:01,599 it worked. And not only did it work, then there's 385 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,680 still nothing better for that. There's still use today, there's 386 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,279 still relevant, and there's still a model part and the 387 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,880 pun for other similar training. There are other programs that 388 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,559 have returned to miniatures for the purposes of teaching forensic 389 00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:17,400 death investigation. 390 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:21,839 Speaker 3: When did she get an inkling that, oh, this is working. 391 00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:25,160 Was it immediate or did it take a couple of 392 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,640 years before it became a parent that Okay, teaching news 393 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,200 in the miniatures, this is actually helping, this is doing 394 00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:31,720 some good. 395 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: The feedback really from the miniatures was right from the 396 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:40,119 get go. These guys. She did basically a little focus group. 397 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,799 She invited some few detectives to her home. Take a 398 00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:44,920 look at these What do you think? And right off 399 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,880 the bed, this is just amazing, It's mind blowing, just great. 400 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:52,160 It was very useful. I've had many I've talked with 401 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:55,720 many homicide detectives over the years, and I've had them 402 00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:59,000 tell me that even if you're an experienced cop, you 403 00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:01,799 can be doing bby, you can be doing other things 404 00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:04,680 for years and years. Once you get to a homicide scene, 405 00:23:04,839 --> 00:23:09,200 it's a whole different ballgame. Everything you know it's totally 406 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,960 out the window. A homicide scene is different, a death 407 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,359 scene is different than anything else, and you really don't 408 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,440 want to learn on your first actual scene. It's great 409 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,640 experience having this little practice and the fact that they 410 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,920 are so detailed. It's very useful, and so at least 411 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,920 you have that a little bit more confidence, a systematical 412 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,559 way of going about your search. You learn these ways. 413 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,640 It's not just an exercise and looking at these toys. 414 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:39,640 But she had a very purposeful way that you should 415 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,119 approach a crime scene. And she had a methodical way. 416 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,400 Should start with the left and you lurk and you 417 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,079 go in a counterclockwise way from the perfery towards the 418 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,480 middle of the room. So she had this whole system 419 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,319 for looking at a scene. And it was quite clear 420 00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:55,160 that not only was that a useful way of teaching, 421 00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:58,960 but that the courses themselves paid off quite quickly in 422 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:05,400 terms of identifying missteps that were avoided, improving investigation, solving cases. 423 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,720 But there was no question if this was a it 424 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:10,920 was a useful approach and that was valuable. 425 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: Where were the dioramas originally located. 426 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,839 Speaker 4: They were located at Harvard Medical School in Boston. She 427 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,759 had a room built for her to her specifications to 428 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,960 locate them, and when she died in nineteen sixty two. 429 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,920 Over the course of the nineteen fifties, the relationship between 430 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,440 Francis personally and Harvard Medical Schools soured. She ended up 431 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,519 not leaving any money to Harvard at all. She didn't 432 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:41,559 want Harvard to have the nutshells. She died in nineteen 433 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:45,000 sixty two and Harvard lost interest in the whole program 434 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,039 and they pulled the plug and the legal medicine department 435 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,920 and to this day they don't have a forensic pathologist 436 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,400 on the faculty of Harvard Medical School. I heard that 437 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:57,799 the dioramas were actually headed towards the dumpster by the 438 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,319 nineteen sixties. They were decades old, dusty artifacts that nobody 439 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,720 really wanted. And the guy who is the chief medical 440 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:08,839 examiner in Maryland, Russell Fisher, who was quite a prominent 441 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,759 forensic pathologist and he was chief here, had been through 442 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,960 the Harvard program, and Francis knew him. She recommended for 443 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:18,440 the job here. So Fisher went to Harvard and said, 444 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,839 how about we pick up the homicide seminar. We'll do 445 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,680 it in Baltimore. And Harvard said, great, you can do it. 446 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,440 You take these things and they brought them down to 447 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:29,839 Baltimore in nineteen sixty eight and they've been here ever since. 448 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 3: Okay, the sixty four thousand dollars question that I'm really 449 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:35,759 hoping you're going to say yes to. Can people go 450 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,480 to visit the nutshell studies who are not homicide investigators? 451 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:42,839 I really want to see these things so bad. 452 00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:46,279 Speaker 4: They were close to the public for quite a while. 453 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:52,079 I have been fighting for open more open access since 454 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,359 leaving there. The OCME has finally broken down and they 455 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,000 have allowed visits for one hour. Is it an hour 456 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,799 two hours, one day a month, the first Tuesday of 457 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:06,559 East month. You can have to call in advance to 458 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:10,079 get a reservation, but they are open to the public 459 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,240 on a limited basis. 460 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,759 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm putting it on the calendar. 461 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 4: Ye. 462 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: Now, several years ago the Smithsonian had an exhibit. We're 463 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:23,839 all eighteen or nineteen. I see two different numbers of 464 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,440 the dioramas on display at that Smithsonian exhibit. 465 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 4: Yes, they actually had nineteen. There were originally twenty. They're 466 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,200 actually more than twenty one. There were twenty that were completed. 467 00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:39,480 One of them got sidetracked and was up in the 468 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:42,799 rafters in New Hampshire and was never used for teaching. 469 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:46,039 One of them, unfortunately, got destroyed. So we're left with 470 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,799 eighteen of them that were used for teaching in Baltimore. 471 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,359 And when I started in twenty twelve and had the 472 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,160 opportunity to look more closely inside the cabinets, I noticed 473 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,200 some things. I'm a lay person, but I found what 474 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:04,240 I thought asbestos. Cute, tiny little asbestos, but there was 475 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,279 crumbling asbestos. And some of them had as bestis wrapped 476 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:12,319 around light fixtures and that was crumbling, and there were 477 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:16,119 materials that were cracking they were old. These were with 478 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,160 seventy year old, eighty year old artifacts. They'd never really 479 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,039 been conserved. They've been cleaned, but never really been looked over. 480 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,440 And I guess it was twenty sixteen. I got a 481 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,680 call from Nora Atkinson, who is the curator the Smithsonian's 482 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,599 Renwick Gallery and the Runwick does crafts. It's located literally 483 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,680 right across the street from the White House on Pennsylvania Avenue, 484 00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:41,119 and she came up to look at them and just 485 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:44,519 thinking out loud, and she said, what if we didn't exhibit, 486 00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:46,799 what would you think of that? And of course we 487 00:27:46,839 --> 00:27:49,680 would do that. They'd have to be conserved and fixed 488 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,400 before they could be moved. They were very delicate, and 489 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,480 so they basically offered to do. It ended up being 490 00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:58,160 I don't know, a quarter million or more worth of 491 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,599 work on the diorama. And they replaced all the light 492 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:05,160 bulbs and they all the cracked painting. They just did amazing, 493 00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:09,200 extraordinary work. And that was the tradeoff, was that they 494 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,559 would have them all on exhibit. They even got the 495 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:13,640 one down from New Hampshire. It was the first time 496 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,680 all nineteen were together since they were created. It was 497 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:21,559 the second most popular exhibit at the Renwick Gallery up 498 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,240 until that time had one hundred thousand people go through 499 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,200 the gallery. It was extraordinary. When they came back from 500 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,319 the Smithsonian and back in their cabinets, they were all 501 00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:36,039 repaired and fixed and they're good for generations now. They're 502 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,759 in great shape nowns. So I feel very good about that. 503 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: We've got a lobby lobby the OCME in Maryland to 504 00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:47,680 open this up beyond one hour a month, because if 505 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,599 one hundred thousand people came to see these incredible dioramas, 506 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,559 with these amazingly detailed and we'll include some links in 507 00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:59,480 our show notes here death scenes, you would think that 508 00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:02,400 there'd be a real interest in this, even if they 509 00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:05,759 charged ten bucks or whatever to come in and take 510 00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:06,559 a look at them. 511 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,119 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, they can't charge for one thing. But I appreciate 512 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,119 that they're going to suit through some things. At the moment, 513 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,960 they've had an acting chief since for the past couple 514 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,400 of years. They've just had a very bad manpower shortage. 515 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,039 They're very severely short of staff, and they had a 516 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:30,440 backlog of autopsison. They have some problems and honestly, entertaining 517 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,240 the public's morbid curiosity is really not within their main 518 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:37,920 mission and I totally get that. Yeah, I understood, but 519 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,160 their value as teaching tools is still valid. I still 520 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,720 get contacted from death investigators, from people with the legitimate, real, 521 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,240 genuine instructional professional interest, and they can't get in. Hopefully, 522 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,240 maybe in time we'll see I don't know. 523 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,599 Speaker 2: And your point about the Chief Medical Examiners Office and 524 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,000 the challenges they were facing, we don't mean to make 525 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:06,000 light of that. When you've got autopsies that aren't being 526 00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:11,839 conducted and staff shortages, and I'm sure their challenges are significant. 527 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,400 This probably would fall further down on the to do list. 528 00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 4: It does. 529 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:20,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, so our listeners know that I am a big 530 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:22,640 fan of CSI, and I realized that some people may 531 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:25,079 view that was a little bit of chagrin, but it's 532 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,519 what actually got me very much interested in true crime. 533 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:30,759 When did you learn that CSI had written an arc 534 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,960 about the Miniature Killer which was based on the Nutshell studies? 535 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 4: Probably from day one. People love even people who didn't 536 00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:43,079 know about her, they knew about her in popular culture. 537 00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:47,119 They knew about the dioramas. People even online. I don't 538 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,839 know where they hear about it, but they knew about 539 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,480 the nutshells before they even know who she was or 540 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:54,279 the whole context or anything else. And they still ask 541 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,880 and read it in places where we talk about the 542 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,519 dioramas and somebody say, is that the inspiration for the 543 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,279 miniatures killers? Yes? That was. Yes, they came and visited, 544 00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,200 they looked at them. And what was the other in CIS? 545 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:12,079 So what David McCallum, They played Ducky. He also apparently 546 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,880 was a fan of Francis. And my phone just lit up. 547 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,359 There was that episode you mentioned Francis and the dioramas, 548 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:22,680 and boom, I just get bombarded with emails and everybody 549 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,160 told me she was mentioned again. 550 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: How do you think she would feel about being now 551 00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:31,400 part of this massive pop culture phenomenon that is CSI 552 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,319 and and CIS. Would she be cool with that or 553 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:34,799 would she be like you guys, settle down. 554 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,519 Speaker 4: Personally, she was quite reserved. She really didn't want the 555 00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:43,559 attention and actually was her choice to stay in the background. 556 00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:47,640 And very early on in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties, 557 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,640 the program in what she was doing at Harvard, they 558 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,319 got covered in Life magazine and Saturday Evening Post and 559 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,599 Popular Mechanics and all these magazines and the bust and chlobe, 560 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240 and it got to the point where I think she 561 00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:05,000 got a little tired of being portrayed as this wealthy 562 00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:09,160 model maker who is sort of sitting on the sidelines 563 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,960 and just I don't know, helping the boys do their work, 564 00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:14,720 and she just got tired of it. Just leave me 565 00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:17,720 out of it all together. It's not about me. If 566 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,039 you were alive today, she would be astonished, maybe amused 567 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,880 at all the popular culture things about her. I think 568 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,440 that she would be very thrilled that people are so 569 00:32:28,599 --> 00:32:32,839 knowledgeable about forensic investigation and so interested. I talked to 570 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,880 kids all over the country, and these courses are very popular, 571 00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:41,359 and it's very good science. You learn the critical thinking, 572 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,400 you learn all these things that they want to be, 573 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,880 they would like to work in the field. All these 574 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,279 things are all very good. But what we don't have 575 00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:53,039 is the means to have medical examiners from coast to coast. 576 00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:55,440 And I think that would disappoint her and send her 577 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,799 that we have not made any progress in the past 578 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:58,680 six decades. 579 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when we take a look at the 580 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:06,559 potential versus the actual progress, we do fall short as 581 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,079 a country. And when you hear about just how archaic. 582 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680 Our system is currently and I've said this on the 583 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,279 podcast before, as much as I enjoy those procedur rules 584 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,319 that show us how it can be done, that's not 585 00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:25,640 actually how it's done in so many places around the country. 586 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 4: That is true, and it's interesting. There is what they 587 00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:32,559 call the CSI effect, and that people have become so 588 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,200 much more sophisticated on juries and they know about DNA evidence, 589 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,640 And in a way that's a double edged sword, because 590 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,839 I think people's expectations are too high. They expect that 591 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,000 you're going to find DNA on any scene, that you're 592 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,599 going to have the identity of who that DNA belongs to, 593 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:53,480 the next day, that things are solved, that you'll find fingerprints. 594 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,400 I don't think people have a concept of how difficult 595 00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:59,200 it actually is to get a good fingerprint, because the 596 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,240 surfaces all kinds of reasons. People don't pick up a 597 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:05,599 glass very carefully and to leave a nice neat print, 598 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,960 and so their expectations are very high. There is that, 599 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,039 but on juris they if you don't juries have come 600 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:16,360 to expect the science and they want the DNA, and 601 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,760 if you don't deliver it, then they wonder maybe there's 602 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,519 something going around there, and that respect is really very good. 603 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,639 There is that expectation that you know, if I'm living 604 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,320 in West Virginia in some small town and that my 605 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,159 sibling my parents are found dead, that's going to happen. 606 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,480 And it's not. It won't be anything like that. It's 607 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,039 not going to happen there. Even in a place like Baltimore, 608 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,039 a big city, the full bore whole thing with the 609 00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:43,480 cameras and all that, it's maybe five to ten percent 610 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:46,679 of the homicides. They just don't do that. You can't 611 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,880 do that in every case. 612 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,519 Speaker 3: Before we wrap up, I do want to get you 613 00:34:50,599 --> 00:34:54,800 to talk about your most recent book, Ocme tell us 614 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,960 a little bit about that, and then tell us where 615 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,480 we can find all of your books. 616 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 4: When I started at the OSA and I'd known a 617 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,679 good bit about it, the Ocume of Maryland was at 618 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,400 one time really celebrated as one of the best in 619 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,719 the United States. It was a legendary as a place 620 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,039 for training and research and education and service. It was 621 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,719 just really truly extraordinary in terms of how quickly things 622 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,000 were done, how thoroughly things were done. Everything was done 623 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,079 by consensus, so that it wasn't just one person's opinion, 624 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,880 and over the course of my I was there for 625 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,039 ten years. Over the course of my time there, I 626 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,400 saw this sort of tumble into crisis. A lot of 627 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,719 it was driven by the opioid epidemic. The caseload just 628 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,079 went up dramatically, just it nearly doubled, and a lot 629 00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:46,400 of that was driven by the opiate overdose intoxication desk, 630 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:50,519 and the caseload per doctor was just going higher and higher, 631 00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:53,000 and so people were leaving the field, which would make 632 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,800 things worse, and it ended up in a very bad 633 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,079 place where we had there was at one point a 634 00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:01,880 backlog of autopsies that approached two hundred and forty some 635 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,840 people waiting for autopsies up to two weeks, and it 636 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,639 was really horrible. My first book was a biography of 637 00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:12,880 a woman. It really does documents this transition from the 638 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,440 coigner system to the medical examiner system and ocm ME 639 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,880 is there's like bookends and this is the modern story 640 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,119 of what's going on today in forensic medicine. And the 641 00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:28,000 problems that occurred in Maryland are not unique to Maryland. 642 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,719 There are shortages, manpower shortages coast to coast. There are 643 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,079 backlogs in autopsies and autopsy reports from the West coast 644 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:40,320 and down South Ohio, Mississippi, you name it. There are 645 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,119 problems all over and I had this opportunity to document 646 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,519 but was basically a biography of an organization, tracing their 647 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,559 rise in the fall of this once great institution and 648 00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:53,039 the implications that it has not to spend the people 649 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:56,119 of Maryland, but throughout the country. Both of those books, 650 00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,400 I think they do go together. Well. They're available wherever 651 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,079 you've books, hopefully pay for them, but they're also at libraries. 652 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,199 You can check them out you want to. 653 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: Pay you with the library route as well. 654 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 4: It was in my contract to give it to libraries 655 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,239 for free. I actually left money on the table and 656 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,119 gave up money to make sure that it's available at 657 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:17,159 libraries for free. 658 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,599 Speaker 2: Do you think the production, particularly of your new book OCME, 659 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,199 will help highlight the issues that you wanted to What 660 00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:30,320 would it take to fix the challenges facing the Medical 661 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,920 Examiner's Office in Maryland. 662 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:37,079 Speaker 4: That's a good question, and there isn't really an easy answer. 663 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,559 You can't just hire more doctors because the doctors simply 664 00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:45,840 don't exist. Every year, Medical School's producer around twenty eight 665 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,320 thousand doctors. Of that twenty eight thousand doctors, only about 666 00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:54,400 five hundred and fifty or so choose to do a 667 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,239 residency in pathology. And of those people who do a 668 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,800 residency in pathology, more than forty end up doing forensic pathology. 669 00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:07,280 They produce every year throughout the country. We produce thirty 670 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,800 seven thirty eight forensic pathologists every year, which is not 671 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,440 enough to replace those who are retiring leaving the field. 672 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,199 The National Association of Medical Examiners National Student Justice they 673 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,360 say that right now today there are about four hundred, 674 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,440 five hundred forensic pathologists in the entire country who are practicing. 675 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,960 We need right now on thy twelve hundred French of 676 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,599 pathologists right now. Even if we decided today that we're 677 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:36,840 going to do this and we're going to train all 678 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,400 these people, it would take thirteen years to get them 679 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,679 through pre med medical school, training and working. There is 680 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,880 no really easy answer and no way out of this hole. 681 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,119 Speaker 3: Bruce, this has been an amazing conversation. The book is 682 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,760 eighteen Tiny Deaths, The Untold Story of the Woman who 683 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,840 invented Modern Forensics. Available wherever books are sold, although we 684 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,960 do encourage you to shop local and indie bookstores whenever possible. Chris, 685 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,599 thank you so much for joining us today. We really 686 00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:07,639 appreciated talking to you. 687 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,639 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me christ and Bill. It's been 688 00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:13,519 a pleasure. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. 689 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 3: Gonna do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 690 00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:19,480 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 691 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 692 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,760 Another Dog Productions. 693 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,639 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 694 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 695 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:44,159 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 696 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:48,679 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 697 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,519 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 698 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 699 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,280 Murders on Facebook. 700 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 701 00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:01,599 Bill Thomas five six. 702 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:05,079 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.