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NOPERD is necessary if 22 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:03.960 we were privateed by loss he terms and conditions eighteen 23 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:04.920 plus love. 24 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.319 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:27.599 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker vck 27 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:32.319 every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.480 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.599 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:55.040 Good Evening. In the late nineteen eighties, Caitlin Rother wrote 31 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:59.280 for the Berkshire Eagle and the Springfield Union News in Massachusetts. 32 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.319 She returned to California and went to work as a 33 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.319 reporter for the Los Angeles Daily News. After working a 34 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.759 year as a freelancer for the Los Angeles Times, beginning 35 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.800 in nineteen ninety three, she worked as a metro news 36 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.479 and investigative reporter for the San Diego Union Tribune. Caitlyn 37 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:20.159 left the paper to write nonfiction books in two thousand 38 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:24.439 and six. Caitlyn Rother went on to become a Bulletzer 39 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:29.680 nominated investigative journalist and New York Times bestselling author. Caitlyn 40 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.800 Rother has written or co authored thirteen true crime books 41 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.879 and several kindle e books. Her book Death on Motion Boulevardist, 42 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.159 slated for release in two thousand and twenty one. Caitlyn's 43 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.199 true crime body of work includes the books Poison, Love, 44 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:54.039 Body Parts, Lost Girls, Wherehope Begins, Slash, Deadly Devotion, Dead Reckoning, Secrets, 45 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.319 Lies and Shoelaces. I'll take care of you then no 46 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:03.599 one can have her, Naked Addiction, Hunting, Charles Manson, Love 47 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:09.400 Gone Wrong, Twisted Triangle, A Complicated Woman, Dead on Delivery, 48 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:13.520 and Kill Him some More. Caitlyn Rother will discuss how 49 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:16.159 she got started in true crime writing, the cases that 50 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:19.599 have most affected her career, and the background behind some 51 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:24.039 of the most shocking stories in true crime history. My 52 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:28.120 guest tonight, Caitlin Rother True Crime Retrospective with my special guest, 53 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.439 journalist and author, Kitlyn Rother. Welcome back to the program. 54 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.680 Thank you very much for this interview. Caitlin Rother. Hi, 55 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:40.439 good to be back, good evening. Glad to have you 56 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.680 on this very special true crime retrospective. 57 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.159 I hope I can remember everything. 58 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:55.479 I'm sure you can't. Absolutely, you had been working, as 59 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:59.240 we did in the introduction. We mentioned in Indian introduction 60 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:03.159 that you've been working for newspapers since the late eighties, 61 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:05.719 but you decided in two thousand and six to write 62 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.800 books full time. Tell us about that decision to write 63 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.439 books full time and what was your first book project 64 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.240 and how did it help you, if at all, in 65 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:18.720 your decision to write true crime. 66 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:22.600 All right, first, I just want to clarify that I 67 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.879 have thirteen books that are out. They're not all true crime. 68 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.560 There are ten of them I think are true crime, 69 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.319 but a couple you mentioned. Naked Addiction, for example, is 70 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:37.160 actually a mystery novel. And so that was the first 71 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:42.360 book that I ever wrote, and I spent seventeen years 72 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.839 trying to get it published. So the thing is, people think, oh, 73 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:48.920 she's got all these books, it must be really easy 74 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:52.120 to get published. No, it took me fifteen years to 75 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.560 get my very first book published, and it happened to 76 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.879 be a true crime book, Poisoned Love. So I spent 77 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:04.199 many years working as an investigative reporter for various newspapers. 78 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:07.319 I had to fight just like everybody else. It's a 79 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:11.079 lot different today with journalism. It's you know, I think 80 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:14.959 people can go to work when they're very young and inexperienced. 81 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:20.519 And that's some of the issues that we veteran journalists 82 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:25.360 have with with newspapers these days, is they're the experience level. 83 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.439 You know, a lot of people who are my age 84 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:31.800 or even younger, you know, who have years and years 85 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:36.399 of experience, have been laid off or pushed out, you know, 86 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.600 because of the financial shrinkage of the whole industry. So 87 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.639 I was working on my research skills, my investigative reporting 88 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.560 skills at newspapers where I worked for nineteen years. And 89 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.160 while I was working at the newspaper, I mean, I've 90 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.360 always wanted to write a book. I always wanted to 91 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:01.920 get published, so I was working on fiction. Actually, so 92 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:06.480 my first book, Naked Addiction, that I wrote, I started 93 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:13.319 in a writing workshop in little town in western Massachusetts, 94 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.560 in Northampton, where I lived, and I was working for 95 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:20.519 the newspaper there, and I was reading Patricia Cornwell and 96 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:24.040 I was reading Michael Connolly, who are crime fiction writers, 97 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.199 because that's what I wanted to do. So I mean, 98 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:31.199 you know, I learned how to write fiction by reading 99 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:36.560 and by taking these writing workshops. And meanwhile I'm working 100 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.839 on my writing fast skills on deadline at the newspaper, 101 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.399 writing as fast as I could type, essentially, and learning 102 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.519 how to be a researcher. And so you know, it 103 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.600 took many years to actually get my very first book published, 104 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.000 and it wasn't the first book that I wrote. So 105 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.759 my first book that I wrote was Naked Addiction, which 106 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:59.199 I wrote much of when I was in Massachusetts. But 107 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.360 it takes place where I grew up here in San Diego, 108 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:07.000 which is where I am now, and actually in La Joya, 109 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.800 where I went to junior high in high school. It's 110 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.759 a you know, wealthy community on the beach, and so 111 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.560 it's basically about you know, sex, drugs and murder at 112 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.160 the beach. I just couldn't get it published because I 113 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.160 had not been published before other than in the newspaper. 114 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.360 And so I just worked on it, and I kept 115 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:27.480 rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting it, and I'd 116 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.120 send it out and I'd go to conferences and so basically, 117 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.120 you know, you have to learn your craft first then, 118 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:36.199 and what I do involves two crafts. One is research 119 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.399 and one is writing. And then over time I learned 120 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.959 how to write what we call narrative nonfiction, and so 121 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.319 I started doing that in the newspaper long stories. But 122 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.920 that's basically you have characters and you have scenes. And 123 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:54.600 so I basically got that published in the newspaper, and 124 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.839 then I started, you know, my first book that I 125 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.439 finally was able to get published, with Poison Love, and 126 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.000 that was about the Kristin Rossam case with the county 127 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.439 toxicologist who stole drugs from the lab at the Medical 128 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.360 Examiner's office and poisoned her husband with them and then 129 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.480 staged a suicide scene and put red rose pedals all 130 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.800 over his body. That was actually my first book that 131 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.079 I got published, and I'm so grateful that it sold 132 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.639 really well. It is my best selling book to date. 133 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:30.160 In fact, it's still selling and it's not in print anymore, 134 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.600 but you can still get it in audio and you 135 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.399 can still get it as an ebook. And I actually 136 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:38.799 have copies of all my books that are out of 137 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:42.799 print in my special collector's inventory that I sell to 138 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:45.679 people who want to buy private copies. But that was 139 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:47.799 my first book that I got published. Then it took 140 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:52.960 me another I had Twisted Triangle, and then my novel 141 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.919 I finally was able to get published as book number three. 142 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.919 So even though it was the first book that I wrote, 143 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:02.519 it was book number three when it got published, and 144 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.639 it was you know, it has a detective in it 145 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.120 who is kind of a little bit based on me, 146 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:12.919 But he's a man, and I learned the hard way that, 147 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:14.840 you know. Even though I thought I could think like 148 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:17.519 a man, I'm actually not a man. I'm actually a woman. 149 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:20.120 And so I had to have men read it and 150 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.480 tell me men wouldn't think like that or men wouldn't 151 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.039 say that. So that's always a challenge. If you try 152 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.320 to pick a protagonist who is not the same gender. 153 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:30.559 You may think you know what you're doing. But that 154 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.960 took me a long time to get that right. And 155 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.720 then I actually got it. The original publisher went out 156 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.720 of business and so I was able to take it 157 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.120 and revise it because I was a much better writer 158 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.600 by this point, and I had it revised and updated 159 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.000 through Wild Blue Press, So it's actually still it's available 160 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.159 now and it has a different cover than it did originally, 161 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:56.039 and it's better. So that's still out. But that you know, 162 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:58.240 like I said, it took me fifteen years to get 163 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:00.960 my first book published. After trying, trying, trying to get 164 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.720 Naked Addiction published, I just couldn't get it published. But 165 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.279 I wanted a book more than anything, I mean, and 166 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.639 then once I got a book published, I still wanted 167 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.440 that novel published because I've worked on it for so long, 168 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.840 so you know, little by little, you know, I just 169 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:21.240 kept I stuck with the true crime because it's just, 170 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.159 you know, something that I kind of have always enjoyed. 171 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.279 You know, I've always enjoyed watching crime movies. I always 172 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:31.399 enjoyed reading true crime, you know, magazine stories and books. 173 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:33.799 But the thing about it that I like so much, 174 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.960 and the reason I've stuck with it, even though it 175 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.639 doesn't really pay that much and it's you know, doesn't 176 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.320 sell that well these days because there's so much TV 177 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.399 and podcasts like yours, people think, oh, I already know 178 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.039 the story, and so they don't tend to buy as 179 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.480 many books anymore. So there aren't as many true crime 180 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:56.320 authors these days as there used to be. But I, 181 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.759 you know, it's what I know how to do, and 182 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:00.840 I'm good at it, and people, well, it seemed to 183 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.639 like my books, and so I just keep at it. 184 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.360 But I do try to write other books in between sometimes. 185 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.240 So I'm working on another book right now about the 186 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:14.279 San Diego Frozen Zoo, which is about saving the planet 187 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.879 and trying to save some of these species that are 188 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.879 you know, going extinct and taking their little living cells 189 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:22.759 and freezing them so that they can try to recreate 190 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:28.120 these animals, save them in a kind of a large, 191 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.159 you know collection. So that's a whole other topic. But 192 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:34.039 it's not it's not true crime. But that's that's what 193 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:36.759 I'm going to do next. So that was a long 194 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:38.759 answer to your question. I forget what it was now. 195 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:44.240 That's okay, fine, that's fine. You talked about the first 196 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.440 book and then the frustration and not getting it published 197 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.080 at in the beginning. So how was it that you 198 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.519 came to Poison Love? How did you make come to 199 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:55.879 that decision to say, Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to 200 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.440 concentrate on this. You had always been interested in true crime, 201 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:02.519 but tell us some of the conditions that were present 202 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:05.879 when you were in a position to write Poison Love. 203 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:08.440 Yeah, so, I mean, I like, so I learned how 204 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.480 to write a book in fiction, you know, by writing 205 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.519 naked addiction, and then I brought that to the newspaper 206 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.120 to write narrative for the newspaper. And then I this 207 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:20.039 case came along. While I was still working at the newspaper. 208 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:26.440 I had covered county government and local government, and you know, 209 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:31.399 and every Saturday shift, which we had to do like 210 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.279 once a month, I would ask for the cop beat, 211 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.960 so you didn't necessarily get assigned that, but I just 212 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.799 like to do that because on a Saturday, you know, 213 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.639 there's only one or there's only a couple three reporters 214 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:45.879 maybe who are working, and so I said, hey, let 215 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.200 me do the cop beat. So if there was a murder, 216 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.759 I would go out and do the first day reporting 217 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:54.960 on a murder. And the way that it would work 218 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:59.039 in newspapers is the cop beat. They do the first 219 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:02.960 initial few days, then it ends up getting passed over 220 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.519 to the court reporter because it switches over into the 221 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:10.600 court system. So there's not really good continuity there in coverage, 222 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.159 just as far as I'm concerned. So I would sometimes, 223 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.759 you know, stick with the story and try to keep 224 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.720 reporting on it. Well. In this case, Kristin Rossam was 225 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:24.440 a county toxicologist and she got fired. She and her lover, 226 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.000 who was her boss, they were both married, but they 227 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:32.480 were having an affair and they were both fired from 228 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:36.399 the County Medical Examiner's office. She was using methamphetamine and 229 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.200 her lover basically protected her and covered for her. And 230 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:48.120 then six months six months later, she was arrested for murder. 231 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.879 So I had these sources from covering the county government 232 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.000 and they called me and they said, hey, a former 233 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.000 county employee was just arrested for murder and I'm like, yeah, 234 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.679 and there was you know, methamphetami. She was using drugs 235 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:10.840 on the job. The turns out that her husband, you know, 236 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:14.639 they stayed a suicide scene and he died of fentanyl poisoning. 237 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.360 And at this time, you know, people hadn't heard of fentanyl. 238 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:21.919 So today it's in you know a lot of street 239 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.480 drugs and people are dying from it because people are 240 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.000 cutting heroin and cocaine and even pot, and you know, 241 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.000 it's showing up everywhere. And it's a very very powerful drug. 242 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.039 It's a one hundred times more strong than morphinge. But 243 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.879 at this time, nobody knew what fentanyl was and it 244 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.320 was very difficult to get the only way you could 245 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.600 get it it's a you know, very controlled substance. So 246 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:46.960 you know, part of the defense they were trying to say, oh, 247 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.519 her husband could have gotten it on the street. Well, 248 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.679 you couldn't get it on the street at that time. 249 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:57.600 So basically she was in charge of the fentanyl that 250 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:03.080 was in the office so they collected patches, you know, 251 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:06.759 for cancer patients, and when they'd go to have they'd 252 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.240 have a dead body. They would take all the drugs 253 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.559 out of the house, prescription drugs and illegal drugs, and 254 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:17.240 they'd put them into this kind of inventory system which 255 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.279 wasn't properly maintained at the time, and she had access 256 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.080 to all this. So she basically had stolen these drugs 257 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.519 from the lab and then she took them home and 258 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.120 you know, she used some for herself, She used the 259 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.679 math for herself, and she you know, sedated her husband 260 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.840 and then poisoned him with the fentanyl and they weren't 261 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.480 testing for fentanyl at the lab at that point, so 262 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:39.840 it didn't show up and they didn't realize that what 263 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.759 he had been poisoned with. So anyways, very clever. It 264 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:46.440 was a great case. I covered it from arrest to sentencing, 265 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.039 and I had to get special permission because it wasn't 266 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.360 my beat. So I covered it initially as the police story, 267 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.919 and then I stuck with it. And then it became 268 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:03.879 a governmental negligence, and you know, the Medical Examiner's office 269 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.639 did not properly, you know, control how these drugs were 270 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.639 kept and monitored and stored and what have you. So 271 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.120 the husband's family filed a civil suit against the county, 272 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.600 a wrongful death suit, so there's that was going on 273 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:23.120 as well, so I basically stuck with it. I got 274 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:25.399 you know, the court reporter was a friend of mine, 275 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:27.799 and I said, Hey, I'd really like to continue to 276 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.320 cover this and actually cover the trial, would you mind? 277 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.480 And he's like, no, go ahead, And so I have 278 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.320 to thank him because without him, I don't know that 279 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.960 I would have the same career because I ended up 280 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.519 writing a book, and like I said, it's how I 281 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.399 got started, and it was. I took six months off 282 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:47.960 unpaid from the Union Tribune, where I worked, and I 283 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.840 had no idea whether I was ever going to get 284 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.399 that money back, because when you start out, your advances 285 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.960 are extremely small. So I took a big risk, and 286 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.360 thank god, I made back my advance and you know, 287 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.399 many times over. So that turned out to be a 288 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.680 good choice. And then I loved it so much. I 289 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:06.440 came back to work and they were so worried I 290 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.440 was going to write another book. They kept trying to 291 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.000 keep me away from the murder stories, which is kind 292 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.839 of bizarre backwards thinking, but that's why I lost newspapers 293 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.920 because clearly that's what I wanted to do. So I 294 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.160 had a couple book proposals that were out. One was 295 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.880 for Twisted Triangle and one was for Body Parts, both 296 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.960 of which did get published. But I ended up getting 297 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.440 two offers within a week of each other. So I 298 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:37.480 had already signed a contract for Twisted Triangle and I 299 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.000 had already given my notice, and so basically what happened 300 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.359 is we accepted that offer and I spent the next 301 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.920 you know, nine months working on that, and then back 302 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:51.599 to back we sent out the proposal again for Body 303 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:53.519 Parts that I ended up getting more money than I 304 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.519 did the first time, because I was by then, you know, 305 00:17:57.559 --> 00:17:59.559 I had three books under my belt. This would be 306 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.599 number four, so I got more money for it, and 307 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:06.519 I had back to back books. And so that was 308 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.759 really hard though, because I ended up getting injured from 309 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.400 sitting at the computer so much that I ended up 310 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:18.599 having a really bad about of chronic pain. So that 311 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.359 was the whole other part of my career where I 312 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:24.920 had to basically switch over from writing on a computer 313 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:30.440 to dictating. So I have actually written entire books using 314 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:35.079 voice activated software. I'm okay now, but it took quite 315 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:38.039 a bit to get through that. It was very, very painful. 316 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.119 So people don't know that when they think, oh, she 317 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.799 just keeps churning these books out. Yeah, well it can 318 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.279 take a toll, and especially when you're writing about murder 319 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.079 and serial killers, and you know, it can get very 320 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:54.319 dark and it can get very difficult, you know, to maintain. 321 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.200 You know, it was just very that book body parts. 322 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.559 It was just that that was probably one of the 323 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:06.680 hardest books that I've had to write in terms of 324 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.279 the emotional impact that it had on me, because it 325 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.079 was just such a gruesome and gory case. And I 326 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.240 said to myself, I can't ever write a book like 327 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.799 this again, so I try to stick. You know. Overall, 328 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.640 the cases that I'm most drawn to are like Kristin Rossam. 329 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:29.000 That was you know, drugs, lying, adultery. You know, you've 330 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:34.640 got the international intrigue of this family. Her husband, Greg 331 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.039 de Villers, had this family whose father, his father was 332 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.519 a doctor and he lived in Monaco and his you 333 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.680 know mother and father were French, and his brothers, you know, 334 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.519 they were all very good looking and all educated, and 335 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.759 so it was a story about you know, this person. 336 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.759 Kristin Rossam was also really pretty, and she had been 337 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:59.200 a ballerina and a child's model, so it was just 338 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.839 about the pretty girl. Everybody loves a pretty murderer in 339 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:05.240 this country. You would be amazed how many men emailed 340 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.640 me trying to get her information in prison so they 341 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:13.160 could write her. It was pretty sick, but you know, 342 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:18.480 the body parts was difficult because it was about this. 343 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.480 He was a long haul trucker and he would pick 344 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:27.720 up these troubled women, prostitutes, drug addicts, and you know, 345 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.720 lure them into his truck and they'd have sex and 346 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.920 then he would torture them, and it was horrible. I mean, 347 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:40.039 it's I prefer the financial crimes and the greed, the 348 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:46.039 medical crimes, the ones that involve you know, more of 349 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.960 the con men and conwomen. Those are I'm more drawn 350 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.079 to those than the ones that are about addiction or 351 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.759 mental illness. I'm kind of more into those, and I 352 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:58.000 don't like to do the gruesome, gory, bloody, you know, 353 00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:03.160 hatchet people. This guy, this guy drew me to the 354 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.440 story because went out and ford he turned himself in, 355 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:09.920 and so I've never heard of a serial killer who 356 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.319 turned himself in before he wanted to. He couldn't stop 357 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.480 himself from killing anymore. So he called his brother for 358 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.279 help because he knew he wouldn't be able to do 359 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.160 it on his own. And he even tried to get 360 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.000 out of it, even asking after asking his brother to 361 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.200 help turn him in, changed his mind, tried to get 362 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.640 out of it. But he had a woman's breast and 363 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.200 a baggie in his pocket that he'd cut off her 364 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:36.359 body and stuck her in the aqueduct, and he had it, 365 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.880 and he had pieces of her body, you know, buried 366 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:43.519 and in the freezer, and he you know, I hate 367 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.400 to even say this stuff out loud because it just 368 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:47.680 grosses me out, but I'll just say this one thing. 369 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.599 He took this So this wasn't her breast. This was 370 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.599 his first victim, but the one who he turned himself 371 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.680 in with was probably I think was his more recent victim, 372 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:01.839 but this first one, and he chopped her into pieces 373 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:08.960 and you know, put her he basically baked her breasts 374 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.519 I think it was her breasts and kept the fat 375 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:13.680 in a can. I mean, it's just it was like 376 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.920 it was very disturbing to have to be in that 377 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:21.880 world he was, and he had a lot of paraphilias, 378 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:24.759 which I learned all about you know, these people who 379 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.880 have these fetishes where he liked to poke women's breasts 380 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:32.640 with pins and needles, and I mean that's really gross, 381 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.079 gross stuff. And he also had a head injury, so 382 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.200 you know a lot of people who are violent in 383 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.160 prison have had had head injuries. I think at the 384 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.519 time I wrote that, there was a statistic that I 385 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:50.319 think eighty five percent of the people who were had 386 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.400 done violent murders had head injuries. And that seems really 387 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:57.720 high to me, but it's definitely, you know, that's definitely 388 00:22:57.799 --> 00:22:58.519 an indicator. 389 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.200 Here is Ryan here, I have a question for you. 390 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.160 What do you do when you win? Like, are you 391 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.599 at fist pumper, a wooo, a handclapper, a high fiver? 392 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:09.240 I kind of like the high five. 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