WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:40.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:45.359 Twenty five Frozen One Thought, Murder and Mayhem in the 8 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:49.719 Midwest takes readers deep into the heart of unsolved mysteries 9 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.159 and chilling crimes that have haunted communities across the Midwest, 10 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.920 from small towns shattered by sudden disappearances to cities rock 11 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:05.359 by violent acts. Each chapter brings a different story twenty 12 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:10.680 five cases left frozen in time, still waiting for justice. 13 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:15.640 The book explores murders that stun neighborhoods, kidnappings that tore 14 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:21.519 families apart, and mysteries that investigators chased for years. In 15 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.040 these pages, the quiet streets of Missouri, Illinois and beyond 16 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:31.920 become the backdrop for secrets, heartbreak, and unanswered questions. But 17 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:36.640 not every case remains locked in ice. One story breaks free, 18 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:41.760 the Thowd case, where persistence and detail uncover the truth 19 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.599 and shows that even the coldest mysteries can sometimes find 20 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:51.719 resolution with a journalist's eye for fact and as storytellers 21 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:56.599 gift for detail. Cypher's presents the lives lost, the families 22 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.640 still searching for answers, and the investigators who refused to 23 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:07.120 give up. Rather than sensationalizing tragedy, the book restores humanity 24 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:11.080 to the victims while revealing the lasting impact of crime 25 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:17.639 on entire communities. Twenty five Frozen One Thought is a 26 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:22.159 testament to memory, resilience, and the hope that justice may 27 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:27.560 yet be found, even decades later. The book that we're 28 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:32.879 featuring this evening is twenty five Frozen One thowd Murder 29 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:38.159 and Mayhem in the Midwest with my special guest, journalist 30 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.879 and author Bob Ciphers. Welcome back to the program, and 31 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.520 thank you very much for this interview. 32 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:46.800 Bob Ciphers, Thank you, Dan. 33 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:52.400 Let's start with how you became involved in this book project, 34 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.639 twenty five Frozen One Thought. What's the origin of this 35 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:56.439 book project? 36 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.840 Well, I work my whole life as a journalist radio, TV, newspapers, 37 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.439 small market, middle market, large market. My last thirty five 38 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.000 years were it cam OVTV to CBS affiliate in Saint Louis, 39 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:12.000 and my last year there I spent working with police 40 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.599 departments the FBI travel in the country chasing down the 41 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:19.280 I seventy serial killer. They formed a task force. It 42 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.719 was a case still unsolved, and when I retired, I 43 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.159 wrote the book on that and I really figured that 44 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.400 was done. It was my first really effort at a 45 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.159 book of bet sorts. You know, I didn't know what 46 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:35.439 the expectation was. I had no writing background or anything 47 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.639 for writing a book. But the book did really well. 48 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.599 And true crime is, as you well know, out there 49 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.159 in the in the marketplace right now. And my publisher 50 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.080 got back to me and said, you know, what else 51 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:51.199 do you have? But it was like, well, what else 52 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.719 do I have? I covered stories for thirty five years, 53 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.240 and so I put together a list of a lot 54 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.719 of stories I covered that were interesting cold cases talk about. 55 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:04.280 But my mind kept going back to the one case 56 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.560 that was not a cold case, but was thought that 57 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.199 was a cold case that was solved. And so thus 58 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:13.360 twenty five frozen one thought. If you like them cold 59 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:15.759 or if you like them thought, I think the book has. 60 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:20.000 Both yes and very remarkable stories we won't be able 61 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:23.160 to cover and even discuss at any kind of length 62 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.600 the twenty five frozen cold cases that you have featured 63 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.560 in this book. But let's start with the very first 64 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.319 one you called the Never Ending Story nineteen eighty three, 65 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.560 and again the television station that you mentioned that you 66 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:43.319 worked at, KMOVTV, Saint Louis and the case of Larry 67 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.879 and Denise Wolfe. Tell us a little bit about this 68 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:54.000 TV broadcast of their nuptials and what happened after. 69 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.399 The television station was covering a different news story at 70 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:01.759 City Hall, but while they were there, there was a 71 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.759 wedding taken place, and it was like, hey, let's shoot 72 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:06.519 a few pictures of the wedding. It might be a 73 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.000 nice kicker or a way to end the newscast, you know, 74 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:11.959 you give the viewers a half an hour of gory 75 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.279 details and try to leave them with a smile on 76 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:18.319 their face. And the wedding happened to be Larry wolf 77 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:22.279 and his bride, Denise. They ran home and told everybody 78 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.439 how they were going to be on TV, and that's 79 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.959 how their TV world began. Well, of course, later it 80 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.920 did not end quite as well, as Denise was murdered 81 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.279 and Larry became a suspect, and the case never got 82 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.199 solved because it had so many crazy twists and turns 83 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.600 in between that it just the police department wound up 84 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:45.920 just throwing their hands up in the air and saying, 85 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.720 we have no chance here. This is so crazy, this 86 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.279 is so goofy beyond the pale, and you've got a 87 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:56.639 woman laying dead in her driveway and a husband standing 88 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:02.639 right next door. Basically, but it never got. 89 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:04.240 Well, let's go into this just a little bit because 90 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:09.000 it's such a fascinating story. There was this as you 91 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.920 write this, Dennis Rabbit, the south Side rapist, was on 92 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:17.759 the loose in the area. And so you talk about 93 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.800 Denise and Larry getting married, but this was the fourth 94 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:27.720 marriage for Denise, and this marriage didn't work out either. 95 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.839 But they had a sort of a strange relationship. They 96 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:35.199 decided to separate. Larry bought a house nearby, about one 97 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.199 hundred yards away, and so they had this sort of 98 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:41.920 strange relationship where they weren't together, but they were often 99 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:46.600 seen together and did things with their daughter, so they 100 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.399 were seen together. They were known by the family at 101 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.480 least that they had this amicable split and that they 102 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:58.639 still remain friends. But because of this Dennis Rabbit, this 103 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.240 notorious south Side rapist. It was on the loose. Denise 104 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:08.399 was very careful and installed some measures with her garage 105 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.680 so that she would go directly from the driveway into 106 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.439 the garage and then I guess into the home because 107 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.839 of the South Side rapist. So tell us what happens 108 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.480 one morning despite these precautions. 109 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.439 Well, she worked at a casino and worked the late 110 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.720 night shift, and at that point in time it appears 111 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.040 she may have had a relationship with a worker there. 112 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.120 Larry may have been known of that. Larry, as you said, 113 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:42.120 a strange relationship, living right a couple houses down the street. 114 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.199 He bought from her, but he seemed to know everything 115 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.519 she was doing, and at almost all times he was 116 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:52.360 really watching over her, if you will. And she came 117 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:54.879 home that night and at four point thirty in the 118 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:57.680 morning from work, and as soon as she went through 119 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.000 her front yard, within seconds the gun fire rang out. 120 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.199 I think she was She arrived home a little bit 121 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.199 around four thirty or so, and by four thirty five 122 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:11.680 neighbors had already called the police. Houses riddled with bullets. 123 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:15.399 The niece is lying face down on the sidewalk, and 124 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.680 within minutes ems has arrived and the quiet block that 125 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:24.519 was asleep a minute ago is now going crazy. Larry 126 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.279 lived just literally like one hundred yards away. Police went 127 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.279 to his house and he answered the door as he 128 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.799 was asleep and boxer shorts. While the other neighbors all 129 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.200 said they heard stuff, Larry said he didn't hear a thing. 130 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.240 The niece died at the hospital within the hour, and 131 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.480 by the time the sun rose, that whole neighborhood was 132 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.279 just swamp with police officers going door to door. 133 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:52.399 With the security system that I mentioned, police realized that 134 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:57.639 she did not do what she had that security system for. 135 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:01.000 She didn't drive directly into that drive way. She did 136 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.440 something other that indicated something else, at least to the police. 137 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.440 Yeah, it indicated that she had a conversation with somebody 138 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:14.039 or something happened in that five minutes between four thirty 139 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:18.559 and four thirty five four thirty six that paused her. Otherwise, 140 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.279 she'd have pulled into that garage at four thirty four 141 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.080 thirty one. So there had to be a second element 142 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:27.440 in play, and obviously there was. She was shot, but 143 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.879 she did not pull right in. She paused. What would 144 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.200 she pause for? What would anybody pause for? In your 145 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.399 driveway at four thirty in the morning. You're not going 146 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:41.679 to pause for a complete stranger to have a conversation. 147 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:46.240 She was either apprehended immediately or she paused because she 148 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:50.000 knew somebody and that allowed her to believe she was 149 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.039 able to have a safe conversation at that hour. 150 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.600 Very interesting too, is that when the ambulance took his 151 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.440 wife and he didn't know that condition, she was still alive. 152 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.559 He did not go with her in that ambulance to 153 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:06.759 the hospital. 154 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:08.039 And he went back to bed. 155 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:13.480 He said, Now you introduce a homicide detective which is 156 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.240 featured or is often appears in these stories, and that's 157 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.399 detective Chris Poppas he said that you quote him as 158 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.080 saying that they had no idea. Police really had no 159 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:30.080 idea really what happened until Laurie Lynn Cherko turned the 160 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:32.919 case upside down. Can you explain what she had to 161 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:33.600 say to police? 162 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:39.000 Well, she became the eyewitness, but her story changed half 163 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:44.639 a dozen times, and once the police started investigating, it 164 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.399 was like, wait a minute, you sent us down this path, 165 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.600 and now you've changed your mind. We're going down the 166 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.519 second path, third path, fourth path. And she became the 167 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.559 star attraction because every week it was a new story 168 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.679 out of her mouth, and pretty soon Larry the Husband 169 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.279 was no where to be in there, and then Larry 170 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:07.960 the Husband is right there. It's like, you know, it's 171 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:11.679 just police had a hard time taking her seriously. And 172 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.240 then she started going on the radio stations on her 173 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.799 own and talking about the case. She started feuding with attorneys. 174 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.320 It became really but she may have been one of 175 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.960 the most bizarre witnesses that police have ever encountered in 176 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.960 any investigation that I ever dealt with. And it just 177 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.120 got to the point as the police were ready to 178 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.159 go and make charges on the case against Larry the Husband, 179 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:38.080 that the defense attorney made it obvious. You put her 180 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:40.559 on the we're gonna put around the witness stand. We're 181 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.240 gonna say her story has changed to half a dozen times. 182 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:47.279 What's the jury gonna believe? Is that a b CD 183 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:51.960 e F And once police realized that she had no credibility, 184 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.320 and yet she was the focal interest in the entire investigation, 185 00:11:57.320 --> 00:11:58.399 the case went south. 186 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.600 Very interesting. If we go back, there was a witness 187 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.000 that said that there was a gray van or similar 188 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:11.080 color with the stripe on it seen leaving the scene, 189 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.320 and also that there was reports of by a neighbor 190 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:19.200 that he had heard shots at four thirty seven am. 191 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:26.679 And so very interesting when again police look into Lynn 192 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.480 Cherko's story that she happens to have a husband, that 193 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:35.440 they have very similar living arrangements as Larry and Denise 194 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.679 had in that they don't live together. But his name 195 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.440 is Marcello Cherko, and he just happened to own a 196 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.279 gray van with a stripe on it, and he also 197 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:48.600 owned a high power rifle similar to the murder weapon 198 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:50.720 police theorize was used. 199 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.240 And keep in mind, Dan, these were elements or new 200 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:01.720 twists in the tail that kept coming out over time. Oh, 201 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.240 by the way, Cherko has a husband living in the 202 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.720 same relationship as you mentioned. Oh by the way, remember 203 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.080 the van I told you about. Guess what, my husband 204 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.759 has that same band. But she's not telling police this. 205 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:20.279 Originally this is month's end or her fifth story. It 206 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.919 was new clues being dropped, almost like you know, Ansel 207 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.159 and Gretel dropping little brugg crumbs along the path, and 208 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:32.679 each breadcrumb she would drop seemed to become bigger than 209 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:37.080 the last one, and it was like police saying, how 210 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:41.519 can this come out? Now where's this bend? And it 211 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:46.120 just it just became you know, do we go meet 212 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:49.159 with her again for the eighth time, because who knows 213 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.720 what the story is going to be then, and it 214 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:56.279 just became a puzzle that the piece is just you 215 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.480 could never fit together. 216 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:01.279 And they got to the point where she agreed to 217 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.759 write a formal statement and then at the last minute 218 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.039 said she refused. 219 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:07.960 Correct. 220 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.759 Now, despite that, the police figure that they at least 221 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.440 have enough to make an indictment. So what do the 222 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:15.240 police do with that? 223 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.679 Well, they're ready to go forward. I mean, Larry Wolf 224 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.279 sat in jail for a year and a half. Even 225 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.879 his attorney at Richard Sindel, he says, you know, he 226 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.320 told me, Bob, I don't know if he's guilty or not. 227 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.039 He's the only guy that had a motive, so I 228 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.080 can understand why the police were looking at him. But 229 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:36.159 you know, the state still has a burden of proof 230 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:38.720 and they weren't going to do that with Cherko on 231 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.240 the witness stand. So where would they go from there? 232 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.799 In the meantime, you know, Larry Wolf since then has 233 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:50.000 passed away and the police department has just basically closed 234 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.039 the case because they issued warrants on him for the arrest. 235 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.919 But once the case went sizzled and once he died, 236 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.919 there was no second back. There was no second person 237 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.360 with motive. There was no random person they thought was 238 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:07.759 roaming the streets at four point thirty in the morning, 239 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:12.200 hiding behind a bush, waiting to kill Denise. And so 240 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.840 this case is really not closed. This case is frozen. 241 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.039 But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 242 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.320 Let's move on to the next story. And you write, 243 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:30.279 this is called where is Gina? And this is Fredericktown, Missouri. 244 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.600 You say a population of three thousand in August fifth, 245 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.720 nineteen eighty nine, and you introduce a lieutenant, Keith de Spain. 246 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.200 So tell us about Gina don Brooks and when she 247 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.639 said goodbye to her mother Cindy Box and told her 248 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.360 she was going on a bike ride around ten thirty pm. 249 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.320 Yeah, this was really heartbreaking. This story really happened. As 250 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.120 soon as I arrived at camb Movie in Saint Louis. 251 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:03.919 Little girl just disappears on a bike and she became 252 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.600 perhaps in our area. There the original milk carton girl 253 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:13.399 missing with no explanation. She's riding a bicycle after a 254 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.159 baseball games at ten o'clock at night or so. And 255 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.840 it's a small safe town in the middle of nowhere. 256 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.960 It's not a crime infested area. And the next thing 257 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:24.919 you know, her bike is in the middle of the 258 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.960 street and she's gone and she's never been seen since. 259 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:34.879 And for the parents, the heartbreak, the search, the years 260 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:39.600 have gone by. For a Chief di Stain who worked 261 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:45.200 the case, just gnaws at him every day. They have suspects, 262 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.240 they have leads in pacted. Just in the last six months. 263 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:53.639 They took a prisoner out of jail, handcuffed and went 264 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:58.480 to a scene in rural Missouri where he may have 265 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.039 told them to start digging, and they dug and they 266 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:04.920 found nothing. Really really said, you know, you cover all 267 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.279 these stories and these are heart They're all heartbreaking stories 268 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.839 for me, But the ones that always stick with me 269 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.680 are the ones with children and the devastating effect they 270 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.680 have on the parents that are left behind, and in 271 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:22.720 Gina's case, because of the elements of her being so 272 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.880 young in a small safe town, and then suspects that 273 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:31.039 they couldn't quite nail, and the story developing over time 274 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:33.920 with new leads and good leads and hard leads and 275 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.359 perhaps confessions and still not being able to get the closure. 276 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:40.160 Just very frustrating. 277 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.960 Let's go back to this horror you talk about that 278 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.680 that she went on a bike ride and was a 279 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.640 station wagon behind her. Notice the station wagon again, and 280 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:58.039 station wagon sped away with Gina as inside. Obviously this 281 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.759 is all assumed, and the bike was found lying on 282 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:07.119 the street just five blocks from her home. Now two am, 283 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.480 Cindy awoke and found her daughter not at home and 284 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:17.839 panicked and so went to lieutenant to Spain, and he 285 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.519 put two and two together because there was a report 286 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:26.000 of a girl missing on a bicycle. So he becomes 287 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.640 involved in this investigation. 288 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.680 He knew right away, you know in a small town, 289 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.279 that's not what you usually see. You got a missing girl, 290 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.839 you got a bicycle on a street, you got a 291 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.920 reports of a car street, you know, streaking away they went, 292 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.920 They went out quickly. By daybreak that town was crawling 293 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.039 with everybody. So Keith did a really good job of 294 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.920 getting people in their city, county, state. I know, the 295 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.599 Feds were there. They had hundreds of people that were 296 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.440 searching various counties. I mean, they brought in horror on 297 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.079 the ground. They had airplanes, they had helicopters. I remember 298 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.240 being down there and seeing all the people and the 299 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.519 yellow ribbons that were on all the trees. It was 300 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.279 a The city was out looking for Gina. I mean, 301 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.279 they they came out in mass house people, you know, 302 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.720 everybody went out there to the streets looking for her. 303 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:23.400 And there was nothing. There was just literally no clues 304 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.160 for them. It was just a girl who disappeared off 305 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.400 the face of the ears. 306 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.079 You say, years went by without a solid lead, and 307 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.000 then a letter from Connecticut having nothing to do with 308 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:42.759 Gina changed the game completely. Laura Michelle Dinwittie had been 309 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.680 ordered in Saint Louis in nineteen seventy five, you write, 310 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:51.359 and the case went cold. Now near twenty years later, 311 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.799 Saint Louis homicide commander David Heath found a letter from 312 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:59.680 Laura's mom in Connecticut asking him to never forget her daughter. 313 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.680 Laura case. Tell us how these two cases get connected 314 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:04.319 by police? 315 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.799 Yeah, really interesting and in fact, Laura Dinwittie's case is 316 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.640 also one of the twenty five frozen cases. Later in 317 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.960 the book. She was a social worker from Connecticut who 318 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.559 was well off financially and came to Saint Louis to 319 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.759 work with the Vista program just to basically one step 320 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.319 above volunteer for hardly any money, and wound up getting 321 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.559 murdered in Saint Louis. But her family writes the letter, 322 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.599 and David Heath was the homicide commander at the time. 323 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.400 The family kept writing the letter on Laura's behalf, you know, 324 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.039 every year, and ten or so years later, twenty years later, 325 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.160 the letter gets a response. He says, let's look at 326 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:47.839 this case of Dinwittie. And as he's looking at the 327 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.440 case for Dinwittie, he gives the letter over to Detective Pappus, 328 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.519 who also worked a never ending story case, and as 329 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.920 they're investigating Dinwittie, they see the suspect. There was a 330 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:03.279 fourteen year old team named Danny Williams. He was later 331 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.480 admitted being at the scene of the murder, although said 332 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.920 he didn't do it well. Pappus is now investigating the 333 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:15.599 letter in the Dimwitty case, looking into Williams' background, and 334 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.960 then he sees that Williams has been sentenced for raping girls, 335 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:24.680 sodomizing girls, little girls. He's a constant person that's been 336 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.160 in jail, and so now he starts looking at him 337 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.519 as a possible connection for Gina Dawn Brooks, and they 338 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.880 start putting two and two together, and before they know it, 339 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.279 Williams's brother had a close friend who lived in Fredericktown, 340 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.880 right near Gina, and Williams was a frequent visitor to 341 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.480 the area. So now they've gone from trying to help 342 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.599 this dinwitty family from a twenty year old homicide in 343 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.759 Connecticut to suddenly trying to track down a killer for 344 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.480 a case happening right now with Gina don Brooks. They 345 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.920 brought Willialliams in for a polygraph and he failed it 346 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.720 and that's when he became suspect number one and still 347 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:08.039 is in the GENA case. 348 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.240 What of the cellmate that says he has some information? 349 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:14.960 What of that? 350 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.920 Yeah? There were two other people that police alleged were 351 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:26.599 involved with Williams with the Gina disappearance, Bryant Squires and 352 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.480 Timothy Blue. They were both friends of his. They'd both 353 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:36.279 be implicated in the police investigation, but as time came 354 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.400 along Squires in Blue they wound up in the same 355 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:45.559 prison with Williams for different crimes. And Ss was Williams's 356 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.039 best friend. He was the person that tied Williams to 357 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:53.440 Gina all along. And he was dying of cancer in 358 00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.359 nineteen ninety six, so this is what seven years after 359 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.599 Gina has disappeared. But before he died, he made a 360 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:07.079 deathbed confession to two different nurses implicating Williams in the case, 361 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:09.839 and even it put himself in there. He says he 362 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.480 was the driver of the station wagon that night that 363 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.359 abducted Gina, and he said Williams held her by knife 364 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.480 in the back seat and killed her. But he died. 365 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:26.119 And in the case of lag you're now bringing nurses 366 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.079 in to quote hearsay evidence. It's a question of whether 367 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.240 or not how well that would hold up in a 368 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:33.880 court case. 369 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.839 You say that it was Papa's who walked into Williams 370 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.359 prison cell and personally served him with the murder warrant, 371 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.440 and he said he wasn't surprised. 372 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.519 Oh I remember Chris told me. He said, Bob, he 373 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:51.119 says to me, he goes, what took you so long 374 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:54.119 to get here? And then when he Pappus is giving 375 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.359 him all the information he's got on the case, Williams 376 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:00.680 was like, wow, you did your work. How'd you get 377 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:05.599 all this? But they charged him. They charged him in 378 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.640 two thousand and three for murder. He pled not guilty. 379 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.640 But then when the state realized they didn't have quite enough, 380 00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:16.319 you know, you've got no body and now squires who 381 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.839 talk to the nurses is dead. They were not certain 382 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.920 of their case and they dropped the charges because they 383 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.640 feared if he got off innocent and something came up later, 384 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.039 they couldn't charge him again for double jeopardy. So Williams 385 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.200 was tucked in jail for a long long time, and 386 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.119 it's like, let's let's let him sit there. If we 387 00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:38.000 get more evidence later on, we can go for murder. 388 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:41.240 But for right now, he's sitting there and we're going 389 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:44.000 to keep looking at this case. And they still are. 390 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.759 You say that detectives are still looking at this case, 391 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.079 but they also believe he could be connected to up 392 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:53.319 to a dozen murders across the country. 393 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.599 Well, when you've got a rap sheet starting as a 394 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:02.759 thirteen or fourteen year old for attacking other young female girls, 395 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.440 and it continues into your adulthood and it's a long list, 396 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:10.039 the police are going to look at every single case 397 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.599 out there and see was Williams in the area of 398 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:17.319 these cases at this time? Did he have any connection 399 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:22.440 to any of those victims. And so yeah, he's he's 400 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.039 got the rap sheet, he's got the background, he's got 401 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:32.599