Speaker 1: It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea. On iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff. And with me is
Speaker 1: Wendy Lyon's Sunshine, who has this wonderful book, Tender Pause,
Speaker 1: how science based parenting can transform our relationship with dogs.
Speaker 1: So Wendy, I mean, I really I love this book.
Speaker 1: It's relatable and basically you took how a parenting of
Speaker 1: humans and made it apply to dogs. So tell me
Speaker 1: how did that first begin for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting journey. I'm sure what happened was
Speaker 2: my husband and I had adopted a little rescue puppy
Speaker 2: and things seemed to be going fine until she got healthy.
Speaker 2: We cured her of all the little problems she had
Speaker 2: when we got her from the shelter, and next thing
Speaker 2: you know, we had a live wire on our hand,
Speaker 2: and I just I didn't know which way was up.
Speaker 2: It was just chaos in the house, and I was
Speaker 2: getting very frustrated, and I was afraid that I was
Speaker 2: not at all qualified to deal with this oldlogan. I
Speaker 2: realized that I had turned into a struggling parent, very
Speaker 2: much like the people that my colleagues had helped and
Speaker 2: that kind of gave me an idea. I had just
Speaker 2: helped write a book for struggling parents, and I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe there's something in here that will help
Speaker 2: me because I am at my wits end, and I
Speaker 2: went in with you know, fresh eyes. I started replacing
Speaker 2: the world word child with puppy when I would read
Speaker 2: through the book, just thinking, you know, maybe this will
Speaker 2: spark something. And sure enough, it really did. It Really
Speaker 2: it helped give me compassion and more understanding, and it
Speaker 2: inspired me to use more patience, more compassion, and combine
Speaker 2: both caring and nurturing with limits setting and gentle guidance
Speaker 2: and all the things that really expert parents do on
Speaker 2: a day to day basis. And it was this aha
Speaker 2: moment and next thing, you know, I looked into the
Speaker 2: science and sure enough, there was a lot of research
Speaker 2: on both sides that supported this. So it was quite
Speaker 2: quite exciting to discover that's something so many people do
Speaker 2: instinctively is really on the right track.
Speaker 1: Right right, I mean basically, it's like positive reinforcement that
Speaker 1: you do with children.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's one big part of it for sure, right yeah, yep, yeah,
Speaker 2: to help them say yeah, good job, and you know,
Speaker 2: thank you for doing that. That's great, right, you know,
Speaker 2: motivates them and keeps people cooperative and you know, helps them,
Speaker 2: helps them really learn in a really encouraging way, correctly wonderful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it, I guess to me, just because
Speaker 1: I just always have felt I don't know, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't realize that. And that's why
Speaker 1: it's almost like your book Eureka of course, because you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, because I feel like a lot of times
Speaker 1: people don't realize. I just remember from like having my
Speaker 1: very first dog, I don't even know how long ago,
Speaker 1: many many, many many years ago, and it was just
Speaker 1: I always remember someone saying, you know, you set them
Speaker 1: up for success, and I know you have that in
Speaker 1: your book as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's a lovely way to put it, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: make sure the choices they have are going to be
Speaker 2: good choices and right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it's simple. I mean it's a simple
Speaker 1: thing like you wouldn't leave let me think, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: leave medication within a child's reach, So you shouldn't do
Speaker 1: the same thing for a dog or a cat either,
Speaker 1: because they could get into it as well. So it's
Speaker 1: almost you're setting it up for success like you would.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just feel like it's so common
Speaker 1: sense to me, but I guess, you know, it's that
Speaker 1: old thing. The thing about common sense is most people
Speaker 1: it's not that common or whatever. I think George Carlin
Speaker 1: said that, right, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the other thing that can complicate matters is
Speaker 2: perhaps what we grew up with. You know, sometimes the
Speaker 2: parenting we got might have been a little harsher, yes,
Speaker 2: and so we think that's the way to be, and
Speaker 2: we don't even realize that they're alternatives.
Speaker 1: Right, right, No, you're absolutely right, And yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: because I mean, yeah, I always think when people were like,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up and you don't want your dad
Speaker 1: to take his belt off, Well, many of us grew
Speaker 1: up like that, right, Okay, I'll be good. And it's
Speaker 1: the same thing you see people, you know, hitting a
Speaker 1: dog or the newspaper or something. So you're right, it's
Speaker 1: absolutely it's so common. But it's absolutely the same the
Speaker 1: same principles, I would think, right, Yeah, was there anything
Speaker 1: in all of your time like putting the book together? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, how long did it take you to
Speaker 1: put the whole book together? I mean, you came up
Speaker 1: with the idea and walk me through. So then what happened.
Speaker 2: It's been a long, long journey because at first I
Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. I thought, well, this is silly. How
Speaker 2: is it possible. You know, I have puppy training guides.
Speaker 2: Why is a parenting book helping me? I thought maybe
Speaker 2: it was just maybe, you know, maybe I was just
Speaker 2: imagining things. But I ended up helping write another parenting
Speaker 2: book and getting a new dog at the same time.
Speaker 2: And this new dog had different problems, but sure enough,
Speaker 2: the parenting guidance really applied there too, I mean, pumple
Speaker 2: things like help them feel safe, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And the more I looked into it, the more I
Speaker 2: could see it. And I started looking at the research
Speaker 2: and talking to experts, and it was like, yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: it's it's common sense, but it's also because it's so obvious,
Speaker 2: we tend to pooh poo it, you know, we think
Speaker 2: we need special, special techniques and strategies. And and because
Speaker 2: they're animals, you know, they don't respond, you know. Similarly, mistly,
Speaker 2: they're different. We know there, we know their dogs, but there,
Speaker 2: but in many ways they've evolved to be our companions
Speaker 2: and to be family members and so we can extend
Speaker 2: some of our insights uh with them in that way.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's taken over ten years to pull all
Speaker 2: this together. I spoke to so many people. It was
Speaker 2: such such a fascinating experience.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: But the beauty is that it helps us understand ourselves
Speaker 2: and a little bit as well where we came from,
Speaker 2: and then we can make choices for the long term
Speaker 2: well being of the whole family, and just like we
Speaker 2: would for kids, and think of the dogs and their
Speaker 2: needs as individuals too. That's interesting, right, Kids have different
Speaker 2: aptitudes and talents exactly dogs.
Speaker 1: No, it's true, and like every dog, just like every child,
Speaker 1: is different. And I think many people don't realize that,
Speaker 1: especially if they always go for a certain breed because
Speaker 1: they've read about characteristics of that breed. But then they'll
Speaker 1: get another dog of the same breed and don't understand
Speaker 1: why it's so different than their last one. Well, it's
Speaker 1: because it's a different dog's.
Speaker 2: Right, right, There's some funny things. I had head up
Speaker 2: the dog one point and she just couldn't care less
Speaker 2: about tennis balls, I mean absolutely not, And I thought,
Speaker 2: how is that possible? As dogs love tennis balls, right,
Speaker 2: tennis balls, And here was one who like, if you
Speaker 2: threw a toward her, it would more likely hit her
Speaker 2: on the head than she would have.
Speaker 1: Off. But that's just because he was right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had to stop trying. We just found
Speaker 2: something else. She liked it really did you know.
Speaker 1: No, it's true, but it's so funny. It's so funny
Speaker 1: because someone who didn't have the common sense or or
Speaker 1: the knowledge that you do would be like, oh, this
Speaker 1: dog has to like tennis balls, and like, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 1: You know, it's an individual. So it's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: And I love the fact in the fact that in
Speaker 1: the book you have relatable information throughout the book with
Speaker 1: you know, I guess you spoke to experts. How did
Speaker 1: you find those people for the book like that have
Speaker 1: the relatable information?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have been participating in communities relating to dogs
Speaker 2: and dog welfare and dog training, and I just, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, would I would see a conversation where somebody
Speaker 2: would raise an issue and I thought, wow, that is
Speaker 2: so on, you know, equivalent to what we do with kids.
Speaker 2: And so I would reach out to different, two different
Speaker 2: people in those circumstances where I'd say, you know, I
Speaker 2: love what you you did where you you you gave
Speaker 2: this particular puppy time to develop comfort in social situations,
Speaker 2: for example, just as one example. Uh, and I actually had,
Speaker 2: Uh there's one case study in there which is just amazing. Uh,
Speaker 2: this woman who had a dog that they were talking
Speaker 2: about behavioral euthanasia, which is where you put them down
Speaker 2: because it's just so difficult to deal with them. And uh,
Speaker 2: and of course she when when the doctor said that
Speaker 2: to her, she was horrified, started looking elsewhere, and when
Speaker 2: she finally put two or two together, she said, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I'm a therapist who works with children who
Speaker 2: are at risk, and how did I not see this
Speaker 2: all this time? And once once they started talking about
Speaker 2: thinking about traumatized kids or you know, dogs being relocated,
Speaker 2: rescues and different kinds of needs, it was like it
Speaker 2: all fell together for her. And she says, of course,
Speaker 2: and she she shared her story and it was so inspiring,
Speaker 2: and I'm so grate grateful to these people for sharing,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes their struggles that they might be embarrassed about,
Speaker 2: but then they came through the other end and everybody's
Speaker 2: happier for it.
Speaker 1: So it's wonderful, right, And it's also it's something that
Speaker 1: many people go through, just you don't always realize it
Speaker 1: when you're going through it that you're not the only
Speaker 1: one in the whole wide world who's going through it.
Speaker 1: So I think that applies as.
Speaker 2: Well, exactly absolutely, and.
Speaker 1: I like to you that you have the different times
Speaker 1: there are reflections from the field. So again, those are
Speaker 1: people that you had reached out to or that you
Speaker 1: had known about and they gave you know from their perspective,
Speaker 1: is that how that worked?
Speaker 2: Yes? Uh huh. These are people who are dog trainers
Speaker 2: or a veterinary you know, verdinary specialists or behavior specialists
Speaker 2: of different sorts. Because I just wanted to bring these
Speaker 2: things side by side and even include some passages from
Speaker 2: the parenting books where there where you could see how
Speaker 2: clearly the message they're giving fits for animals that are
Speaker 2: in our household as well.
Speaker 1: Was there anything I mean, I'm sure there were many things,
Speaker 1: but is there anything like one thing in particular that
Speaker 1: really shocked you when you realized when you were like
Speaker 1: with your first puppy, that you rescued that applying something
Speaker 1: that you do with a child, that you are shocked
Speaker 1: that that actually worked. Is there any any one thing
Speaker 1: maybe that stands out or too many?
Speaker 2: Well, that's been a compilation over but I'll tell you
Speaker 2: a couple of things that surprised me. I learned about.
Speaker 2: One is how vital movement is for brain health and
Speaker 2: for what we call emotional regulation and self regulation. In
Speaker 2: other words, to be a well adjusted individual, you need
Speaker 2: movement from very early in life, and kids need to
Speaker 2: move around a lot, and it actually has implications for
Speaker 2: your brain circuitry.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And it can't develop fully and in a healthy manner
Speaker 2: if you don't get that early movement, because your body
Speaker 2: is sensing and learning and it's just quite extraordinary. So
Speaker 2: helping that the little ones have access to movement and
Speaker 2: not retraining them and restricting them for long periods is
Speaker 2: a real gift that we can give them. The other
Speaker 2: thing that surprised me was how often weird and troubling
Speaker 2: dog behavior is related to pain. People sometimes think you
Speaker 2: can train certain things out of dogs, but if the
Speaker 2: behavior is because the dog's and pain, it's going to
Speaker 2: be difficult, right, It's not going to be effective. Everything
Speaker 2: from they might have a dental problem and so they
Speaker 2: might get a little bristly or snappish when you touch them,
Speaker 2: and not because they're you know, bad dogs, because they're hurting, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, you think about if we had a toothache,
Speaker 2: of course, feeling cuddly.
Speaker 1: Right, No, of course, you know. And it's interesting that
Speaker 1: you say that. You just kind of gave me a chill,
Speaker 1: because it's something that I've thought about over the years.
Speaker 1: I have one of my rescues years ago, died of
Speaker 1: kidney failure at four years old. But he was one
Speaker 1: of those. He was like a ninety pound dog, like
Speaker 1: a boxer bulldog mix giant dog. Lovable, but he didn't
Speaker 1: like to walk. Like sometimes we would go out for
Speaker 1: a walk and then he would just stop and lay down.
Speaker 1: And I never yeah, and I never you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of got him eventually he would walk, but every
Speaker 1: once in a while he would just PLoP down. And
Speaker 1: you know, when Carmine didn't want to walk, there was
Speaker 1: you couldn't pick up ninety pounds. You had to wait
Speaker 1: till he was ready, and then we'd go. And I
Speaker 1: remember talking to different behaviorists and trainers and they were like,
Speaker 1: I've never heard of that. That's so interesting, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: I mean, he got better as he was out of
Speaker 1: being a puppy, but then when he suddenly had kidney
Speaker 1: failure and died at four, and then it made me think,
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's connected, And now you're talking about it,
Speaker 1: and I bet it probably was, because it's rare when
Speaker 1: a dog doesn't want to walk.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you really picked up on something really essential.
Speaker 2: It's like sometimes there are dogs that don't want to
Speaker 2: play games, you know, out in the yard.
Speaker 1: And right, it.
Speaker 2: Turns out we've seen where they might have hip displaysure
Speaker 2: mm hmm. Makes it really painful for them. But if
Speaker 2: you if you're not looking for.
Speaker 1: That correct, right, how would you know? Right?
Speaker 2: How would you know? And as the kidney thing is
Speaker 2: really hidden? Because so what, I'm sorry for the loss
Speaker 2: of your dog.
Speaker 1: Oh thanks, thank you? Yeah, very too short. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was gonna I was gonna make him into a therapy
Speaker 1: dog because he was just such a big mush But
Speaker 1: you know what can you It's unfortunately, uh, they don't
Speaker 1: live as long as we do, and unfortunately they die
Speaker 1: suddenly just like people do. And it's and I'm not
Speaker 1: being flipping about it, I just feel, you know, what
Speaker 1: can you do? You know, live and learn and yeah,
Speaker 1: and you'll learn. I mean I've learned from that and
Speaker 1: now talking to you, I was like, yeah, that probably
Speaker 1: was right. And again it goes full circle with your
Speaker 1: book of you know, just pay attention to all the
Speaker 1: different things that you would do, say with a child,
Speaker 1: or it applies to the dog as well, because they
Speaker 1: do communicate. And I think that's the thing too, that
Speaker 1: many times people don't realize that their dog is communicating
Speaker 1: with them and other than barking, But there are so
Speaker 1: many different ways, like your book points out that you know,
Speaker 1: they are communicating with us, but we just have to
Speaker 1: be have our eyes and ears open to it. Right.
Speaker 2: There's one example in the book that is kind of
Speaker 2: startling is that there was a dog that was humping
Speaker 2: all the time on her own the owner, and they
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out what was going on. It was driving
Speaker 2: the family crazy. Or it turned out she had you know,
Speaker 2: structural problems in her spine right, and she wasn't comfortable
Speaker 2: running around. And as soon as the pain was handled,
Speaker 2: and she was also not forced into those rough and
Speaker 2: rowdy situations, she calmed right down and was just a
Speaker 2: pleasure and there was no more of that unwanted humping. So,
Speaker 2: like you say, just all the signs can be out there.
Speaker 2: We want to be alert and yeah and mindful, you know,
Speaker 2: as best as we can. Just they're trying to tell
Speaker 2: us something.
Speaker 1: Correct, Like we just have to pay attention. It's just
Speaker 1: like how you have to pay attention. I mean, because
Speaker 1: you know, dogs are always like their children to me,
Speaker 1: you know, in the sense that they they you always
Speaker 1: have to pay attention like you would for a child
Speaker 1: and a toddler or a baby, because they can only
Speaker 1: communicate so much. Yeah. Yeah, so it's the same thing,
Speaker 1: and your your book points that out so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's just such a wonderful book, and
Speaker 1: I just like the way it just the way you
Speaker 1: expressed everything, but how it's how you presented it. It's
Speaker 1: it's easy to read and easy to follow, which I
Speaker 1: think is very helpful for people.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I'm delighted you feel that way.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, absolutely so. I know, like you said, it
Speaker 1: took you ten years and it's so chock ful as
Speaker 1: so many things. And I know you do books for
Speaker 1: children and everything else. But what is coming up next
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: If there's anything, Yeah, there may be some more articles,
Speaker 2: you know, shorter pieces. Right now, I am contemplating a
Speaker 2: workbook related to the book, but I don't know we'll
Speaker 2: go there so but for the meantime, the articles are
Speaker 2: keeping me busy. But thank you, thank you for the
Speaker 2: encouragement I have to put my thinking.
Speaker 1: Oh, you'll think about it, and I'm sure because I
Speaker 1: don't think you stay unbusy for long. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're going to think and do something. I'm sure because
Speaker 1: you've done so much. So for my listeners who would
Speaker 1: like to get this book, where's the best place that
Speaker 1: they can find Tender Pause?
Speaker 2: Well, you can find it at any of your favorite booksellers.
Speaker 2: You can find it online at places like Amazon or
Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble or Simon and Schuster. It's also available
Speaker 2: on audiobook through Recorded books and Audible.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Wendy Lyon Sunshine, Thank you so much, No,
Speaker 1: thank you for this great book, and thanks for all
Speaker 1: your knowledge and sharing it with so many of us, because,
Speaker 1: like I said before, it's common sense, but many people
Speaker 1: don't have it. It's not very common. So your book
Speaker 1: will be very helpful to getting people not only to
Speaker 1: raise well behaved dogs, but we'll have. I think your
Speaker 1: book will help people hold on to their dogs and
Speaker 1: not give up on them. No, I think so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be because I know, I mean, we all
Speaker 1: know people that give up on their dogs, like, oh
Speaker 1: it's too much, I have to give it up. No,
Speaker 1: don't read Wendy's book, and I think you'll be okay.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for the book and your information,
Speaker 1: and well when you decide on your next thing, we'll
Speaker 1: talk again.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maria, it's been a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Lader and the Spot, see you later.
Speaker 1: Arrigator