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<v Speaker 1>It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea. On iHeartRadio,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff. And with me is

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy Lyon's Sunshine, who has this wonderful book, Tender Pause,

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<v Speaker 1>how science based parenting can transform our relationship with dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>So Wendy, I mean, I really I love this book.

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<v Speaker 1>It's relatable and basically you took how a parenting of

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<v Speaker 1>humans and made it apply to dogs. So tell me

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<v Speaker 1>how did that first begin for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's an interesting journey. I'm sure what happened was

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<v Speaker 2>my husband and I had adopted a little rescue puppy

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<v Speaker 2>and things seemed to be going fine until she got healthy.

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<v Speaker 2>We cured her of all the little problems she had

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<v Speaker 2>when we got her from the shelter, and next thing

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we had a live wire on our hand,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just I didn't know which way was up.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just chaos in the house, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>getting very frustrated, and I was afraid that I was

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<v Speaker 2>not at all qualified to deal with this oldlogan. I

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<v Speaker 2>realized that I had turned into a struggling parent, very

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<v Speaker 2>much like the people that my colleagues had helped and

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of gave me an idea. I had just

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<v Speaker 2>helped write a book for struggling parents, and I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe there's something in here that will help

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<v Speaker 2>me because I am at my wits end, and I

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<v Speaker 2>went in with you know, fresh eyes. I started replacing

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<v Speaker 2>the world word child with puppy when I would read

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<v Speaker 2>through the book, just thinking, you know, maybe this will

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<v Speaker 2>spark something. And sure enough, it really did. It Really

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<v Speaker 2>it helped give me compassion and more understanding, and it

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<v Speaker 2>inspired me to use more patience, more compassion, and combine

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<v Speaker 2>both caring and nurturing with limits setting and gentle guidance

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<v Speaker 2>and all the things that really expert parents do on

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<v Speaker 2>a day to day basis. And it was this aha

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<v Speaker 2>moment and next thing, you know, I looked into the

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<v Speaker 2>science and sure enough, there was a lot of research

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<v Speaker 2>on both sides that supported this. So it was quite

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<v Speaker 2>quite exciting to discover that's something so many people do

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<v Speaker 2>instinctively is really on the right track.

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<v Speaker 1>Right right, I mean basically, it's like positive reinforcement that

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<v Speaker 1>you do with children.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's one big part of it for sure, right yeah, yep, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>to help them say yeah, good job, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for doing that. That's great, right, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>motivates them and keeps people cooperative and you know, helps them,

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<v Speaker 2>helps them really learn in a really encouraging way, correctly wonderful.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it, I guess to me, just because

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<v Speaker 1>I just always have felt I don't know, I think

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people don't realize that. And that's why

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<v Speaker 1>it's almost like your book Eureka of course, because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, because I feel like a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>people don't realize. I just remember from like having my

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<v Speaker 1>very first dog, I don't even know how long ago,

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<v Speaker 1>many many, many many years ago, and it was just

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<v Speaker 1>I always remember someone saying, you know, you set them

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<v Speaker 1>up for success, and I know you have that in

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<v Speaker 1>your book as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that's a lovely way to put it, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>make sure the choices they have are going to be

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<v Speaker 2>good choices and right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, And it's simple. I mean it's a simple

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<v Speaker 1>thing like you wouldn't leave let me think, you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>leave medication within a child's reach, So you shouldn't do

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing for a dog or a cat either,

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<v Speaker 1>because they could get into it as well. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>almost you're setting it up for success like you would.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I just feel like it's so common

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<v Speaker 1>sense to me, but I guess, you know, it's that

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<v Speaker 1>old thing. The thing about common sense is most people

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<v Speaker 1>it's not that common or whatever. I think George Carlin

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<v Speaker 1>said that, right, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, the other thing that can complicate matters is

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps what we grew up with. You know, sometimes the

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<v Speaker 2>parenting we got might have been a little harsher, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we think that's the way to be, and

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<v Speaker 2>we don't even realize that they're alternatives.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, right, No, you're absolutely right, And yeah, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>because I mean, yeah, I always think when people were like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, growing up and you don't want your dad

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<v Speaker 1>to take his belt off, Well, many of us grew

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<v Speaker 1>up like that, right, Okay, I'll be good. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing you see people, you know, hitting a

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<v Speaker 1>dog or the newspaper or something. So you're right, it's

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely it's so common. But it's absolutely the same the

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<v Speaker 1>same principles, I would think, right, Yeah, was there anything

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<v Speaker 1>in all of your time like putting the book together? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, how long did it take you to

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<v Speaker 1>put the whole book together? I mean, you came up

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<v Speaker 1>with the idea and walk me through. So then what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been a long, long journey because at first I

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't believe it. I thought, well, this is silly. How

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<v Speaker 2>is it possible. You know, I have puppy training guides.

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<v Speaker 2>Why is a parenting book helping me? I thought maybe

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<v Speaker 2>it was just maybe, you know, maybe I was just

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<v Speaker 2>imagining things. But I ended up helping write another parenting

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<v Speaker 2>book and getting a new dog at the same time.

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<v Speaker 2>And this new dog had different problems, but sure enough,

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<v Speaker 2>the parenting guidance really applied there too, I mean, pumple

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<v Speaker 2>things like help them feel safe, you know, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And the more I looked into it, the more I

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<v Speaker 2>could see it. And I started looking at the research

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<v Speaker 2>and talking to experts, and it was like, yeah, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's common sense, but it's also because it's so obvious,

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<v Speaker 2>we tend to pooh poo it, you know, we think

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<v Speaker 2>we need special, special techniques and strategies. And and because

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<v Speaker 2>they're animals, you know, they don't respond, you know. Similarly, mistly,

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<v Speaker 2>they're different. We know there, we know their dogs, but there,

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<v Speaker 2>but in many ways they've evolved to be our companions

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<v Speaker 2>and to be family members and so we can extend

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<v Speaker 2>some of our insights uh with them in that way.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's taken over ten years to pull all

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<v Speaker 2>this together. I spoke to so many people. It was

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<v Speaker 2>such such a fascinating experience.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But the beauty is that it helps us understand ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>and a little bit as well where we came from,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we can make choices for the long term

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<v Speaker 2>well being of the whole family, and just like we

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<v Speaker 2>would for kids, and think of the dogs and their

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<v Speaker 2>needs as individuals too. That's interesting, right, Kids have different

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<v Speaker 2>aptitudes and talents exactly dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's true, and like every dog, just like every child,

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<v Speaker 1>is different. And I think many people don't realize that,

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<v Speaker 1>especially if they always go for a certain breed because

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<v Speaker 1>they've read about characteristics of that breed. But then they'll

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<v Speaker 1>get another dog of the same breed and don't understand

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<v Speaker 1>why it's so different than their last one. Well, it's

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<v Speaker 1>because it's a different dog's.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, right, There's some funny things. I had head up

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<v Speaker 2>the dog one point and she just couldn't care less

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<v Speaker 2>about tennis balls, I mean absolutely not, And I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>how is that possible? As dogs love tennis balls, right,

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<v Speaker 2>tennis balls, And here was one who like, if you

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<v Speaker 2>threw a toward her, it would more likely hit her

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<v Speaker 2>on the head than she would have.

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<v Speaker 1>Off. But that's just because he was right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we had to stop trying. We just found

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<v Speaker 2>something else. She liked it really did you know.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's true, but it's so funny. It's so funny

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<v Speaker 1>because someone who didn't have the common sense or or

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<v Speaker 1>the knowledge that you do would be like, oh, this

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<v Speaker 1>dog has to like tennis balls, and like, no, it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's an individual. So it's fascinating to me.

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<v Speaker 1>And I love the fact in the fact that in

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<v Speaker 1>the book you have relatable information throughout the book with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I guess you spoke to experts. How did

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<v Speaker 1>you find those people for the book like that have

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<v Speaker 1>the relatable information?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I have been participating in communities relating to dogs

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<v Speaker 2>and dog welfare and dog training, and I just, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, would I would see a conversation where somebody

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<v Speaker 2>would raise an issue and I thought, wow, that is

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<v Speaker 2>so on, you know, equivalent to what we do with kids.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I would reach out to different, two different

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<v Speaker 2>people in those circumstances where I'd say, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>love what you you did where you you you gave

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<v Speaker 2>this particular puppy time to develop comfort in social situations,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, just as one example. Uh, and I actually had,

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<v Speaker 2>Uh there's one case study in there which is just amazing. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>this woman who had a dog that they were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about behavioral euthanasia, which is where you put them down

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<v Speaker 2>because it's just so difficult to deal with them. And uh,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course she when when the doctor said that

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<v Speaker 2>to her, she was horrified, started looking elsewhere, and when

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<v Speaker 2>she finally put two or two together, she said, oh

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<v Speaker 2>my god, I'm a therapist who works with children who

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<v Speaker 2>are at risk, and how did I not see this

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<v Speaker 2>all this time? And once once they started talking about

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about traumatized kids or you know, dogs being relocated,

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<v Speaker 2>rescues and different kinds of needs, it was like it

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<v Speaker 2>all fell together for her. And she says, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>and she she shared her story and it was so inspiring,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm so grate grateful to these people for sharing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sometimes their struggles that they might be embarrassed about,

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<v Speaker 2>but then they came through the other end and everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>happier for it.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's wonderful, right, And it's also it's something that

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<v Speaker 1>many people go through, just you don't always realize it

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<v Speaker 1>when you're going through it that you're not the only

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<v Speaker 1>one in the whole wide world who's going through it.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think that applies as.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, exactly absolutely, and.

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<v Speaker 1>I like to you that you have the different times

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<v Speaker 1>there are reflections from the field. So again, those are

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<v Speaker 1>people that you had reached out to or that you

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<v Speaker 1>had known about and they gave you know from their perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>is that how that worked?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Uh huh. These are people who are dog trainers

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<v Speaker 2>or a veterinary you know, verdinary specialists or behavior specialists

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<v Speaker 2>of different sorts. Because I just wanted to bring these

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<v Speaker 2>things side by side and even include some passages from

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<v Speaker 2>the parenting books where there where you could see how

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<v Speaker 2>clearly the message they're giving fits for animals that are

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<v Speaker 2>in our household as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there anything I mean, I'm sure there were many things,

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<v Speaker 1>but is there anything like one thing in particular that

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<v Speaker 1>really shocked you when you realized when you were like

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<v Speaker 1>with your first puppy, that you rescued that applying something

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<v Speaker 1>that you do with a child, that you are shocked

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<v Speaker 1>that that actually worked. Is there any any one thing

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<v Speaker 1>maybe that stands out or too many?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's been a compilation over but I'll tell you

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of things that surprised me. I learned about.

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<v Speaker 2>One is how vital movement is for brain health and

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<v Speaker 2>for what we call emotional regulation and self regulation. In

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<v Speaker 2>other words, to be a well adjusted individual, you need

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<v Speaker 2>movement from very early in life, and kids need to

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<v Speaker 2>move around a lot, and it actually has implications for

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<v Speaker 2>your brain circuitry.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>And it can't develop fully and in a healthy manner

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't get that early movement, because your body

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<v Speaker 2>is sensing and learning and it's just quite extraordinary. So

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<v Speaker 2>helping that the little ones have access to movement and

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<v Speaker 2>not retraining them and restricting them for long periods is

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<v Speaker 2>a real gift that we can give them. The other

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<v Speaker 2>thing that surprised me was how often weird and troubling

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<v Speaker 2>dog behavior is related to pain. People sometimes think you

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<v Speaker 2>can train certain things out of dogs, but if the

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<v Speaker 2>behavior is because the dog's and pain, it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be difficult, right, It's not going to be effective. Everything

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<v Speaker 2>from they might have a dental problem and so they

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<v Speaker 2>might get a little bristly or snappish when you touch them,

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<v Speaker 2>and not because they're you know, bad dogs, because they're hurting, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you think about if we had a toothache,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, feeling cuddly.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, No, of course, you know. And it's interesting that

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<v Speaker 1>you say that. You just kind of gave me a chill,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's something that I've thought about over the years.

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<v Speaker 1>I have one of my rescues years ago, died of

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<v Speaker 1>kidney failure at four years old. But he was one

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<v Speaker 1>of those. He was like a ninety pound dog, like

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<v Speaker 1>a boxer bulldog mix giant dog. Lovable, but he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>like to walk. Like sometimes we would go out for

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<v Speaker 1>a walk and then he would just stop and lay down.

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<v Speaker 1>And I never yeah, and I never you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of got him eventually he would walk, but every

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<v Speaker 1>once in a while he would just PLoP down. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when Carmine didn't want to walk, there was

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<v Speaker 1>you couldn't pick up ninety pounds. You had to wait

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<v Speaker 1>till he was ready, and then we'd go. And I

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<v Speaker 1>remember talking to different behaviorists and trainers and they were like,

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<v Speaker 1>I've never heard of that. That's so interesting, blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, he got better as he was out of

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<v Speaker 1>being a puppy, but then when he suddenly had kidney

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<v Speaker 1>failure and died at four, and then it made me think,

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if that's connected, And now you're talking about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I bet it probably was, because it's rare when

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<v Speaker 1>a dog doesn't want to walk.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think you really picked up on something really essential.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like sometimes there are dogs that don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>play games, you know, out in the yard.

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<v Speaker 1>And right, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Turns out we've seen where they might have hip displaysure

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<v Speaker 2>mm hmm. Makes it really painful for them. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you if you're not looking for.

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<v Speaker 1>That correct, right, how would you know? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>How would you know? And as the kidney thing is

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<v Speaker 2>really hidden? Because so what, I'm sorry for the loss

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<v Speaker 2>of your dog.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh thanks, thank you? Yeah, very too short. Yeah, he

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<v Speaker 1>was gonna I was gonna make him into a therapy

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<v Speaker 1>dog because he was just such a big mush But

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<v Speaker 1>you know what can you It's unfortunately, uh, they don't

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<v Speaker 1>live as long as we do, and unfortunately they die

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly just like people do. And it's and I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>being flipping about it, I just feel, you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>can you do? You know, live and learn and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and you'll learn. I mean I've learned from that and

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<v Speaker 1>now talking to you, I was like, yeah, that probably

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<v Speaker 1>was right. And again it goes full circle with your

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<v Speaker 1>book of you know, just pay attention to all the

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<v Speaker 1>different things that you would do, say with a child,

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<v Speaker 1>or it applies to the dog as well, because they

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<v Speaker 1>do communicate. And I think that's the thing too, that

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<v Speaker 1>many times people don't realize that their dog is communicating

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<v Speaker 1>with them and other than barking, But there are so

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<v Speaker 1>many different ways, like your book points out that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they are communicating with us, but we just have to

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<v Speaker 1>be have our eyes and ears open to it. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>There's one example in the book that is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>startling is that there was a dog that was humping

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<v Speaker 2>all the time on her own the owner, and they

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't figure out what was going on. It was driving

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<v Speaker 2>the family crazy. Or it turned out she had you know,

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<v Speaker 2>structural problems in her spine right, and she wasn't comfortable

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<v Speaker 2>running around. And as soon as the pain was handled,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was also not forced into those rough and

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<v Speaker 2>rowdy situations, she calmed right down and was just a

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<v Speaker 2>pleasure and there was no more of that unwanted humping. So,

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<v Speaker 2>like you say, just all the signs can be out there.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to be alert and yeah and mindful, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as best as we can. Just they're trying to tell

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<v Speaker 2>us something.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct, Like we just have to pay attention. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>like how you have to pay attention. I mean, because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, dogs are always like their children to me,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in the sense that they they you always

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<v Speaker 1>have to pay attention like you would for a child

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<v Speaker 1>and a toddler or a baby, because they can only

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<v Speaker 1>communicate so much. Yeah. Yeah, so it's the same thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and your your book points that out so much. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's just such a wonderful book, and

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<v Speaker 1>I just like the way it just the way you

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<v Speaker 1>expressed everything, but how it's how you presented it. It's

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<v Speaker 1>it's easy to read and easy to follow, which I

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<v Speaker 1>think is very helpful for people.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you. I'm delighted you feel that way.

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<v Speaker 1>No, absolutely, absolutely so. I know, like you said, it

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<v Speaker 1>took you ten years and it's so chock ful as

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<v Speaker 1>so many things. And I know you do books for

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<v Speaker 1>children and everything else. But what is coming up next

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<v Speaker 1>for you?

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<v Speaker 2>If there's anything, Yeah, there may be some more articles,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, shorter pieces. Right now, I am contemplating a

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<v Speaker 2>workbook related to the book, but I don't know we'll

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<v Speaker 2>go there so but for the meantime, the articles are

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<v Speaker 2>keeping me busy. But thank you, thank you for the

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<v Speaker 2>encouragement I have to put my thinking.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you'll think about it, and I'm sure because I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think you stay unbusy for long. So I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to think and do something. I'm sure because

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<v Speaker 1>you've done so much. So for my listeners who would

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<v Speaker 1>like to get this book, where's the best place that

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<v Speaker 1>they can find Tender Pause?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you can find it at any of your favorite booksellers.

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<v Speaker 2>You can find it online at places like Amazon or

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<v Speaker 2>Barnes and Noble or Simon and Schuster. It's also available

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<v Speaker 2>on audiobook through Recorded books and Audible.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you, Wendy Lyon Sunshine, Thank you so much, No,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for this great book, and thanks for all

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<v Speaker 1>your knowledge and sharing it with so many of us, because,

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<v Speaker 1>like I said before, it's common sense, but many people

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<v Speaker 1>don't have it. It's not very common. So your book

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<v Speaker 1>will be very helpful to getting people not only to

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<v Speaker 1>raise well behaved dogs, but we'll have. I think your

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<v Speaker 1>book will help people hold on to their dogs and

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<v Speaker 1>not give up on them. No, I think so. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it would be because I know, I mean, we all

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<v Speaker 1>know people that give up on their dogs, like, oh

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<v Speaker 1>it's too much, I have to give it up. No,

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<v Speaker 1>don't read Wendy's book, and I think you'll be okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you so much for the book and your information,

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<v Speaker 1>and well when you decide on your next thing, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk again.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Maria, it's been a pleasure speaking with you.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much, Lader and the Spot, see you later.

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<v Speaker 1>Arrigator