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Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join

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us as we dive into the deep end of the

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unexplainable world and try to piece together what happened. And

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you are listening to Locations Unknown. What's up, everybody, and

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welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I'm your

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co host, and with me, as always is a guy

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who never gets information about bears wrong. Mike vander Bogart.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, and he's our co host, Joe Rotto. He

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had a little what did I say? You just forgot

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your name?

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Speaker 1: What did I say? She said, I'm the co host,

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and you know I was reading at the same time

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that I was talking. I screwed it up.

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Speaker 2: But no. Thank you once again to all of our

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loyal listeners for tuning in. Just a couple of quick

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announcements here we I'd like to get to our Patreon supporters.

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Speaker 1: Well, and we have to introduce our special guest. Andy's coming.

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Oh yeah, studio Andy is back. Yeah. I should have

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We should have probably went over all this beforehand.

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Speaker 2: But in the earlier days we probably would have just

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stopped and re recorded that.

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Speaker 1: But not anymore. We'll just keep going roll to punches.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is our third episode on Gwen Hasselquist. So

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Andy is back in the studio.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having Yeah, absolutely, so just whiskey comes out

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when you come back, so it's a fun time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Just a quick shout out to our new Patreon supporters

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Samantha Porter, Christopher Styles, Angel Sorio, Indy Lindsey. And this

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was pretty funny as we were typing these into our

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show notes, Heather Johnson just supported the page. So thank

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you Heather for you're like a part of the show.

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Speaker 1: Like we were prepping for the show, Mike's phone lit

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up and goes, oh, we just got a patron supporter.

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I'm like ad her to the list quick.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, And, like we say every episode, if you

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want to call our phone number and leave a really

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funny voicemail or a mean voicemail or a review for us,

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just call two eight three nine one six nine three.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Sure, write it on toilet walls and bathrooms everywhere everywhere.

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Call it. So this one's gonna be a little bit

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different because what we're gonna be doing is playing an

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interview that Mike and I already did about a week

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and a half ago. We interviewed Gwen Hasselquest's best friend.

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So we're gonna be playing you that interview. We needed

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some time to cut out some of the things after

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we recorded it that you felt was either irrelevant or

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she didn't want aired. So we're gonna play that interview,

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and what we'll do is either come in and comment

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or just listen through certain parts. So we'll jump right

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into that, right and Mike and I did the interview

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for Andy. This is the first time he's hearing this,

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so he's pretty excited to find out what was going on.

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All Right, here we go to start. Could you just

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give us your name and your connection to Gwen.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so my name is John and Gwen and I

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met in high school and we were friends for thirty years.

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So we met when we were fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And was that high school in the gig Harbor area.

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Speaker 3: No, Actually, we both went to high school in Ohio

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in a rail small town in Ohio called Conyat and

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we were both brand new students our sophomore year and

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happened to sit next to each other and just became

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fast friends really quickly.

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Speaker 2: Throughout the years. How often would you say you would

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meet up like in person or at least talk to

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her if you a phone or emailed right.

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Speaker 3: We after high school kind of went in separate directions.

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She moved out to Texas and was originally planning on

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going to nursing school out there. I stayed in Ohio

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and went to college there. So we sort of, you know,

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through the years, kind of lost track of each other

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and found each other again. And but we would talk

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to each other, you know, on holidays and if I

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would go. I had moved to California once I graduated

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from college. I moved to California, and when I would

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come back to visit my family, I would always go

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up to Cleveland because her family lived in Cleveland and

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that's kind of where she was based after she moved

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back from Texas, and so I would go and visit

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her in Cleveland when I when I came home to

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visit my family, she came to Virginia because then I

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moved to Virginia. She came to Virginia to see me

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a couple of times. But once like social media sort

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of took off and we were able to keep in touch,

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like through Facebook and you know, we text each other,

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it got a lot easier and I would say at

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least probably, you know, communicate in some way at least

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once a month. The last time I saw her was

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in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So how much did you know about Eric? And

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when she got married to him? Were you close en?

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Did you go to the wedding? How did that all work?

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Speaker 3: I did not go to the wedding. She lived with

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her parents for a little bit. Then she moved out

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from living with her parents and she moved into an apartment.

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I think she lived on the top floor and he

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lived on the bottom. Like they was like a two

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level apartment and she lived on top. And that's how

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they met each other. They were neighbors. I remember when

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she met him and she said, I met this guy

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and I really really like him then kind of I

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don't know how long it was after that that. Then

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they ended up getting married, but I don't think anybody

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was at their wedding. I think they went to Vegas

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and got married, just the two.

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Speaker 2: Of them, gotcha. Okay, what year were they married in?

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I don't remember if we knew that or not.

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Speaker 3: I do not know, actually, like fourteen or fifteen years ago, okay,

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Because their oldest son is twelve or thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I believe based on messages in that group,

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the find Gwen group that their kids are actually in

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Wisconsin somewhere with family.

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Speaker 3: They are. Yeah, they're in Wisconsin with his family.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, So what we did hear from some people,

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and I'm going to paraphrase just because I don't want

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to again give away information as asked not to that,

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I'll just say there were some issues in the relationship

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throughout the marriage that seemed to continue to get worse

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as that was happening. Is this something that gwenever reached

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out to to talk about or things that you knew

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that were going on that were something that would rob

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you the wrong way or make you think something was

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going on with their relationship.

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Speaker 3: No, to be perfectly honest, I did not know anything

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about anything that was happening, you know, in a negative

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way between them. She never ever let on one time

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to me. Like I said, we met in twenty sixteen.

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We have a mutual friend that lives in Seattle, and

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so I went out to visit and she came from

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the Tacoma area up to Seattle to visit, and I

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hadn't i'd met eric A couple of times, like maybe

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twice before that in Cleveland, and he seems perfectly fun

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and really nice and you know, friendly. And when I

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went out there in twenty sixteen and we met there,

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he was like a totally different person. He had joined

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the military and was I think playing in the military band,

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like in the army band. He looked totally different, like

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he's a thin, small kind of framed guy anyway, but

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he was like obsessively running and so he said literally

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all he could talk about was running, about his fitness,

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about how he his nutrition, and how fast he could

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run and how many miles he could run. And he

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actually even left the group we were all staying together,

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and he left her there with her kids and went

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running because he's like, I have to get my seventeen

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miles in today. And it was just like a really weird.

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That was the first time of like what is with him?

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Like he's really weird. And my other friend that we

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were visiting, as you to stay left, we both were like,

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what was that?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it was odd enough that like you both

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noticed it, there's something odd. It wasn't just oh, I

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work out in the mornings, I'm going to go for

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a run. No, was it like trying to impress you

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or was it just like he was so deep into

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it like he needed to do it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, like he was obsessed with it, Like he was

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completely obsessed with it. And she seemed a little bit

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off too, like sort of sad and sort of like

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she had had some medical issues. I know, you guys

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talked about the she had an autoimmune problem with that

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like affected her lungs, and so she was like, I mean,

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I think you know, she was We were happy to

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all be together, but I think she was like feeling

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a little bit. She wasn't feeling great, and he was

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being super weird. But it was like enough that when

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they left, my friend and I were like, what just

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happened here? Like he's totally different.

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Speaker 1: When was that, roughly compared to when she initially was missing?

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Was that a couple of years before then.

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Speaker 3: Twenty sixteen I went to visit and then after that,

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like we still kept in touch after that, you know,

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And she had had like some kind of long problem

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that she had to have some kind of medical procedure

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maybe a year after that, and I remember her parents

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came out to take care of the kids because he

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was traveling or something and she needs help taking care

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of the kids.

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Speaker 2: Let's go a year out before she went missing and

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ultimately was found passed away. Were there did you have

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any communications with her in that period that like final

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year that started to make you worry.

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Speaker 3: Or so that's why I was going to say fast forward,

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like another I don't know, another year, maybe November of

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twenty nineteen. Out of blue in November, like I get

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a phone call from her and she's like, hey, I

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need to talk to you, Okay, what's going on? And

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she says, well, Eric's drinking again and so and he's suicidal.

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She's like, Donnie has a gun and he's running around

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outside and every time I try to call the police,

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he says he's going to kill himself. And I was like, wait, whoa,

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whoa hold on? What does that mean? Drinking again? Like

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what you know?

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Speaker 1: So this is the this is the first time that

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you're like aware that he had any issues at all.

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Speaker 3: I had no idea. He has never one time mentioned it.

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I had no idea. So this was like a wait what.

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So she had been trying like to get him help,

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and every time she reachs out to you know, try

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to call somebody to help her. They would say nine

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one one, And anytime he said, you know that he

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thought that they were going to come to the house,

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he would take his son and go outside and tell

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her that you're doing this to me, I'm going to

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kill myself. And so there were weapons in their house,

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like loaded weapons in their house all the time. And

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by this time they had moved. So I don't know

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where they lived before, but I specifically remember that they

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moved to a place. She sent me pictures of it.

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This when when she purchased this hat when they purchased

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this house, and it was like it's out in the

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middle of like in the middle of the woods and

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in order, it's completely surrounded by trees. You can't really

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see their neighbors. And I was like, wow, it's like

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very secluded. And she's like, yeah, you know, I mean

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it is a little kind of far away from people.

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But you know, Eric kind of likes it that way.

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And it's like, Okay, that seems creepy, but okay, wouldn't

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be for me. But that's you know, And she was excited.

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She was like going to grow a garden, and she

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was like super excited about that. So she was like

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half or at least portraying it as you know, happy.

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But so when I got this phone call it in November,

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I was like, what in the.

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Speaker 1: World did she explain, like what it might have been

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from or she just kind of blindsided with you with

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this whole thing that you didn't know anything about.

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Speaker 3: No, she just said, well, she said, he's been an

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alcoholic for years. This has been going on for a

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really long time. You know. She's like, I just never

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told anybody, and I've been, you know, trying really hard

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to hide it or keep it, you know, just in

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our family. So she's like, nobody really knows what's happening.

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She said, he won't he won't let me talk to

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my family. He won't let me talk to his family.

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I can't reach out and talk to people about it.

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I just got really scared for her, and I was like,

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you know, what do you need? What what do you

240
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need me to do? She just said, I just need

241
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somebody to talk to.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So she's like at her wits end. Yeah, Okay,

243
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I've tried everything. I can't do this alone anymore.

244
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

245
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Speaker 2: This definitely lines up with several other people we've talked

246
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,600
to about him, and I believe he was even discharged

247
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,519
from the Milllitary over skinking issues.

248
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,480
Speaker 3: Domestic violence kind of issues, Like I think there were

249
00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:09,120
a couple of times that he was physically abusive to her,

250
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,679
but also like emotionally all the time. Yeah, and something

251
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,480
about running. She said he stopped drinking for a while,

252
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but then he started like obsessively exercising. So when we

253
00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:23,159
saw him in that one time and he was like

254
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,480
I Polly could talk about, is that was like his

255
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,000
replacement behavior? She must there was some And she told

256
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,759
me that he left the military because he didn't like it.

257
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And I was like, all right, I don't know anything

258
00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:37,200
about the military. Okay, I guess to do that.

259
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Speaker 1: I don't think they let you do that, but yeah,

260
00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:43,039
I agree with you. It sounds like he replaced one

261
00:13:43,039 --> 00:13:46,080
addiction with another, So maybe he has that addictive personality.

262
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And we tried getting police records from November December time

263
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,000
frame prior to her disappearance about specifically domestic abuse issues

264
00:13:56,039 --> 00:13:59,519
at the home, and we were at least still unable

265
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,039
to get that through Floyer requests. So that's definitely corroborated

266
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:03,919
from other people.

267
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I did not know anything that was

268
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,519
happening until that moment. But I'm telling you that I

269
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,000
hung up the phone. When I got off the phone,

270
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,200
I said to my husband, this is going to be bad.

271
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I really am super scared for her. I just in

272
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my mind I picture. I just had this vision of

273
00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:24,240
it being like a murder suicide. He's just going to

274
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,279
kill her and he's going to kill his family. And

275
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,679
I go, we're going to see this on the news.

276
00:14:27,759 --> 00:14:30,039
This is going to be terrible. And my husband's like,

277
00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:32,519
I mean, you're kind of overreacting though you think it's like,

278
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,679
I don't know. I just feel really very uncomfortable with this.

279
00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:39,080
This makes me very nervous. And I because she would

280
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not ever reach out to me to share that stuff

281
00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:43,960
with me unless she just felt like she couldn't handle

282
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,480
it anymore. I know it had to have been really bad.

283
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,200
So I like made it my mission to just I

284
00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:52,879
was going to connect with her like almost as many times,

285
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,120
like every day, I want to hear from you, because

286
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,559
if I don't hear from me, I'm going to assume

287
00:14:56,559 --> 00:14:59,080
that something bad has happened and that you know, and

288
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,759
then I'm going to start calling people and it's going

289
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,480
to get weird for you because people are going to

290
00:15:02,519 --> 00:15:03,840
start showing up at your house. You know.

291
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's I mean, that's being a good friend.

292
00:15:06,919 --> 00:15:09,320
I think most people would maybe go, Okay, it's not

293
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,159
a big deal, it's none of my business. But so

294
00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:15,200
when so you started contacting her regularly, what were those

295
00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:17,600
calls like leading up to the incident.

296
00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:21,519
Speaker 3: The funny part about that was every time she would

297
00:15:21,559 --> 00:15:24,600
call me was like in the car picking up her kids, okay,

298
00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:26,480
and then she'd be like, I got to go so

299
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,879
she was getting home or he was like in the room,

300
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,639
so she didn't talk in front of him or anywhere

301
00:15:32,679 --> 00:15:34,039
near him, or as soon as the kids got in

302
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,240
the car, she got off the phone with me. But

303
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,679
I texted her like all through the holidays, and she

304
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,759
kind of made it sound like things were getting better.

305
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,200
She was like, you know, it's been better. It's okay.

306
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,279
Because I was thinking to myself like, oh gosh, Thanksgiving weekend,

307
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,080
they're going to be home the whole weekend. That could

308
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,679
be really bad, you know, And she was like, no,

309
00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:55,240
it seems better, and I was like okay. So time

310
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,399
kind of went on and she first said things were

311
00:15:57,399 --> 00:16:00,240
getting better, so I'm kind of like, okay, is.

312
00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:02,039
Speaker 1: She at that state where she would have been honest

313
00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:03,360
with you if they weren't.

314
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,799
Speaker 3: I don't know if she felt like it was getting better,

315
00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:10,600
because I didn't sort of like hear that ner that

316
00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:14,360
Like I didn't hear that like panic in her voice,

317
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,000
okay anymore, you know, so she sort of made it

318
00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:18,519
sound like things were going better.

319
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you want to speculate, you can just say, hey,

320
00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:23,159
I'm speculating here, but this is what I think based

321
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,120
on because it's I'm sure you could tell if you

322
00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:27,080
knew her that long, you could probably tell, like a

323
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,919
crack in the voice or the way she's talking if

324
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,039
she's not being truthful.

325
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. I just I mean, yeah, I felt like she

326
00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:37,480
was doing better because I kind of could feel myself

327
00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:39,879
like relaxing a little bit. Okay, maybe I just overreacted.

328
00:16:39,879 --> 00:16:41,919
Maybe this isn't you know, like maybe it was okay,

329
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,399
but I still felt like I needed to talk to her.

330
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,960
So for birthdays the first week in March, I always

331
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,320
text her on her birthday or call her. Every single

332
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:52,720
year for thirty years, I sent her a message and

333
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,039
I said, I hope you have a really you know,

334
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,120
happy people year, you know, just sending me some birthday love,

335
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,919
and she said, I've had a great day and I

336
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,720
think this is going to be my best year yet. Okay,

337
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,319
And I like when I think about that now, like

338
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,039
I just like she really felt okay about how things

339
00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:13,480
were going, and she was like feeling really positive. You know,

340
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,759
she had just kind of reconnected. I know, you guys

341
00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:19,839
talked about rekindling a family connection, and she had just

342
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,880
reconnected with her stepsister, Dora. They had been kind of

343
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,880
estranged for a long time, and she was super excited

344
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,279
about seeing Dora, and they had visited and were making

345
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,519
plans to do things, and she was very excited, like

346
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:36,200
she was, you know, she seemed really really happy.

347
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,359
Speaker 1: This is the March twenty twenty. Yeah, okay, this is.

348
00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:42,920
Speaker 3: Like the March fifth is her birthday. So that was

349
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,640
like I talked to her and then March I hadn't

350
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,799
heard from her in a little bit, and it was

351
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,640
March nineteenth. Actually I texted her at night because I

352
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,000
was like, gosh, I haven't heard from her in a

353
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,519
little while. And I just then and COVID stuff was

354
00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:00,599
happening all of a sudden. Yeah, and I'm a teacher,

355
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,200
so pool got shut down and we were just all

356
00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:03,799
sitting here.

357
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like fresh into lockdown because my birthday

358
00:18:06,759 --> 00:18:08,960
is March. My birthday is March nineteenth, and I remember

359
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,000
I had planned, I had plans, and then we're like

360
00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:13,960
everything got shut down. Everyone was very nervous. Yeah, I

361
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,039
didn't know what was happening.

362
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 3: So I sent her a message just so I was

363
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,119
thinking about her, and there was like a lot of

364
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,400
craziness happening, and so I sent her a message and

365
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,000
I said, hey, everything okay, I haven't heard from you

366
00:18:24,039 --> 00:18:26,680
in a little while. And then I didn't hear back

367
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,480
from her. I never heard so then like this, you know,

368
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:32,519
the sequent went by and I'm kind of like, well,

369
00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:34,319
maybe I'll give her like a day or two more,

370
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,799
you know what's going on. And I didn't hear a

371
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:40,440
single thing until I got a phone call from Eric

372
00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:41,839
on March twenty fourth.

373
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 1: Okay, how did that go.

374
00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 3: It's the middle of the day, right, my phone ring,

375
00:18:46,519 --> 00:18:50,599
and it's when she's calling from her phone and I

376
00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:55,079
get a text message that says, hey, Dawn, this is Eric.

377
00:18:55,519 --> 00:18:57,119
I just wanted you to know that the kids and

378
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,880
I are okay, and we don't anything, but Gwen's gone

379
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,039
and we're missing her so much, and I was like,

380
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,640
what you got me?

381
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,759
Speaker 1: You didn't see any of the social media posts or

382
00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:11,720
anything prior to that.

383
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 3: No, okay, no.

384
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 2: With him break the news to one of her oldest

385
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:18,720
best friends.

386
00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:23,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not friends with him. I had no idea

387
00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:26,200
what was happening. I had no and not see one

388
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,119
single thing. I had no idea what was going on,

389
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,039
And like, what what does that mean? And then he

390
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,039
and then he puts his cell phone number, you can

391
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:34,920
call me if you want.

392
00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 1: What. Yeah, that's that's really strange. It's like he's almost

393
00:19:39,759 --> 00:19:43,960
trying to get attention from you because like he knew

394
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,519
you were close with her.

395
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 3: I think he was looking through her phone and realized like, oh,

396
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,000
oh gosh, she's been talking to Don all this time.

397
00:19:54,079 --> 00:19:56,480
John knows all of this stuff that has gone on.

398
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,400
I'm really honestly in my I am speculating, but in

399
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,319
my honest opinion, I think he realized, like, oh boy,

400
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,559
I better get in touch with her because she is

401
00:20:05,599 --> 00:20:08,640
gonna she's going to want to know what's going on. Yeah,

402
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,480
and she knows a whole bunch of stuff.

403
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: Do you think it was like an intimidation tactic? Almost?

404
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 3: No. I wouldn't say that. I think I don't think

405
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,839
I would really say that. I think he was trying

406
00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:23,680
to cover his bases, like he's trying to reach out

407
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,920
to all the people that he knew that new stuff.

408
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,440
You know, I got to hurry up and make sure

409
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,359
that everybody knows I'm this good guy, this caring, loving husband,

410
00:20:31,759 --> 00:20:34,920
and I'm so sad and you know that. So it

411
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,960
took me a long time to style the number. I

412
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,960
called my other friends who lives in Seattle first, and

413
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,640
I was like, what do I do? And she's like, before,

414
00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:42,400
you're gonna have to call. I don't want to call him.

415
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,359
I don't even know what this means. And so I

416
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,640
finally get up the courage to call, and he was like,

417
00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:52,680
immediately as soon as I as soon as he could

418
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,640
hear my voice started just fake crying. And I know

419
00:20:55,799 --> 00:20:58,240
for sure that he was not really crying. It was

420
00:20:58,319 --> 00:21:02,400
like the fakest sounding I've ever heard. And he was like,

421
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,400
she did it. She just jumped off the bridge. She

422
00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:07,799
just did it. And I was like, what are you

423
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,160
talking about? And he's like, she was mad at me

424
00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:15,839
because of COVID, because she had COVID and she just

425
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,119
did it. And I was like, I don't even know

426
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,200
what to say. I cannot even believe this is true.

427
00:21:21,279 --> 00:21:24,559
This is not There's no way. He asked me to

428
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,839
FaceTime his kids, who I'd only met one time before,

429
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,039
so I was like, I mean, okay, that seems like

430
00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:35,359
a weird request. But I was just like, okay, sure, whatever,

431
00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:37,920
I go. Are you hung by yourself? And he said yeah,

432
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,519
I'm here by myself. And in the middle of this crying,

433
00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:42,319
I said why, you need to get in touch with

434
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,839
your family and have your family and he immediately stops,

435
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,640
his voice totally changes and he said, oh, I don't

436
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,960
know if I can say this, but he said, my

437
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,480
family are a whole I'm not talking to them, and

438
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,680
then he went back to just completely crying again, like

439
00:21:54,759 --> 00:22:00,160
Fay crying. And I was like, Eric, I'm so sorry.

440
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,559
Speaker 2: Sounds like I'm not a psychiatrist, but based on all

441
00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:07,480
of the comments we've heard from other people and the

442
00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:09,839
things he was posting on social media, kind of sounds

443
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:10,720
like a sociopath.

444
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:12,319
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I was gonna say.

445
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: The way that he can just turn emotion on and off,

446
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,279
and just the lack of any kind of you know.

447
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: Like extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

448
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like a lack of like if your wife

449
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,039
had just jumped off a bridge when you're talking to

450
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,799
law enforcement, you would be shattered and he like in

451
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,079
the police report, just like a stone cold, like no emotion,

452
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,400
which is bizarre. Normal people would be crying and well.

453
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,079
Speaker 1: I think even normal. Not not that you're not important

454
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,279
in her life, but I'd feel like if it happened

455
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:54,240
to my wife, I wouldn't be going down her list

456
00:22:54,279 --> 00:22:57,880
of close friends first right within a couple of days. Well,

457
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,000
just in general, you're gonna you're gonna be You're gonna

458
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,240
your own family, You're gonna be wrong. And like her,

459
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,279
I would expect her friends would probably show up, but

460
00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:07,200
I wouldn't be going out of my way to reach

461
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,480
out to those people as the only people I contacted. So,

462
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,319
did you, like when you heard this, did you immediately

463
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,039
think that it was something with him? Or just give

464
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,599
us yes, I don't want to lead you. I don't

465
00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:20,160
want to lead you. Tell us how you felt when

466
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:20,839
you got that call.

467
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: I hung up the phone. I was like, I knew it.

468
00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:26,960
I told my husband. I was like, I told you

469
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,759
something was going to happen. I knew it, and I

470
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,480
have never called the police in my entire life. I

471
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,799
didn't even know how to call the police. I got

472
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:36,440
on the phone and I spent the rest of the

473
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,200
afternoon trying to call the Gig Harbor Police department, and

474
00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:45,039
then I couldn't get anywhere because it wasn't Gig Harbor.

475
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,599
It was supposed it was like the Sheriff's department for

476
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,519
Pierce County. So I mean, I spent all this time

477
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:53,440
trying to get through to somebody, and I finally get

478
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,319
like a lady and she's like, ma'am, are you trying

479
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,680
to tell me that somebody murdered somebody? I was like,

480
00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:00,000
I don't know what. I'm trying to tell you. Something

481
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,039
that happened here. This is somebody needs to go and

482
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,759
check this out. That was my immediate gut feeling. And

483
00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:08,519
I am not a person who would call the police ever.

484
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,319
And I immediately said, there's something this is not good.

485
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,440
This is like something bad happen here, Like she did

486
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,640
not do this, There's no way she did this, and

487
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,759
this is I had not seen the video. I had

488
00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:27,960
not I didn't know anything about the the ring video.

489
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,880
I didn't know anything about anything. This is based on

490
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,519
her phone calls to me and his phone call to me,

491
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:37,240
that is it. And I was like, this is wrong.

492
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,279
There's something wrong here. I happened to ask him because

493
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:43,240
I knew she had been talking to her sister, and

494
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:45,680
I just said to Eric, you know, I just need

495
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,599
to understand really what's happening right now, Like you know,

496
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,400
it's hard to understand what you're saying, and I just

497
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,720
don't really get what's going on. So is it okay

498
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,680
if I get in touch with her sister, could you

499
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,680
give me Dora's phone number? And he was like, yeah, absolutely,

500
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,160
hang up the phone. He texted me Dora's number. It

501
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,559
took me a while to kind of get up the

502
00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:07,160
courage because I had literally met Dora like one time

503
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,400
when I was fifteen, thirty years ago, and I was like,

504
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,519
what are the chances that she's even gonna remember me,

505
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,200
But I'm going to try it anyway. And so I

506
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,839
reached out to Dora, like, hey, you might not want

507
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,759
to talk to me, and I totally understand, but I

508
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,920
just been trying to understand what's going on. And she

509
00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:25,240
is so kind and called me back and we started

510
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,400
talking and just in like probably fifteen minutes of me

511
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,000
talking to her, I just said, Dora, I'm so sorry

512
00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:34,319
to ask me this, and I don't mean to offend you,

513
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,160
but do you think that Eric has something to do

514
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,599
with this? And she was like yes, I mean immediately,

515
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,680
oh my gosh, yes, And then we just started like

516
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,319
oh little boo talking about everything because we had so

517
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:50,799
many like so many pieces just don't fit together, so

518
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,960
many things don't make sense. Well.

519
00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, the him getting remarried a couple months after his

520
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,920
wife of fifteen years away die is we both thought

521
00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:05,000
originally were like, that's insane. I've never heard of that

522
00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:09,000
unless somebody killed their wife and had obviously had been

523
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,960
dating her before.

524
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you called Dora, you're talking to her, you

525
00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:16,519
both come to the same conclusion that you feel like

526
00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:19,720
he's responsible. From that point on, when did you start

527
00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:23,400
finding out about all the weird after effect things that

528
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,319
were going on. Did you start following him on social

529
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,440
media and seeing those posts and things like that.

530
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit of that. Dora was there for

531
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,720
a lot of it. She because he reached out to

532
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:37,559
her kind of for sort of support, and Dora was

533
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,799
like trying to help out and be there with the kids,

534
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,640
and you know, she kind of was like, I mean,

535
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,359
I feel like this is really he's really strange and

536
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,680
there's really strange things happening, and I just don't relieve

537
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,400
the kids, you know, with him the way that he's behaving.

538
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,480
And she knows a lot about the stuff that happened.

539
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:01,039
But literally he got married, I mean some other girl

540
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,880
that he was supposed to be bringing to the United States,

541
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,839
some other girl like from some I think it was

542
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,039
like from a Spanish country of some sort, and then

543
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,240
like at the last minute, all of a sudden, he

544
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:15,759
sent Dora a message and said, hey, I met someone,

545
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:19,519
and she's like okay, and he's like, yeah, I think

546
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:22,039
we went on a date. And she's like okay, I

547
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:26,839
mean this is you know, It's like yes, but it's

548
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,319
been like a month and you're okay. And then she's

549
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,480
like I can remember to her call him. He was like,

550
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,400
he is married. Wait what? And honestly, what I think

551
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,480
is that he needed he could he can't function by

552
00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:46,960
himself like Gwen. Gwen kept the crazy under control, like

553
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,240
she held in the crazy, so no one kind of

554
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:53,359
knew what kind of person he really was, and he

555
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,319
needed somebody to help manage his crazy and so unfortunately

556
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,000
this poor I honestly do I don't know this woman

557
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,519
that he married, but I honestly do think she just

558
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:04,480
I think she wanted to come to the United States.

559
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,319
I think she thought I'm going to marry this nice

560
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,599
American guy. I don't think she realized that he was,

561
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:13,599
you know, an alcoholic and a psychopath. And she they

562
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,119
went back to Kenya because not too long after they

563
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,440
got married, her father passed away, and they went back

564
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,960
to Kenya, and when she tried to return to the

565
00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:27,000
United States, she was detained and was not allowed to

566
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,279
come back into the United States because of some sort

567
00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:33,279
of according to them, it was like paper work that

568
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:35,440
and she's not allowed back in the United States for

569
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,839
another eighteen months and I don't know how long it's spent.

570
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,920
But that's when he started writing all those posts about

571
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,759
how you know s the USA and you know, I'm

572
00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:47,119
getting out of this country or whatever. And honestly, he

573
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:54,160
literally left his children, He signed over the he signed

574
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,720
over his parental rights and left his children and went

575
00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:00,960
to Kenya. That's crazy to be with his Yeah, he's crazy,

576
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,400
is what You're right. He's crazy.

577
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:03,039
Speaker 1: It's crazy.

578
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:06,279
Speaker 2: And even the detective in the police report that we got,

579
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,440
and I think you've probably seen that by now too,

580
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,839
because Dora had it. Y. Yeah, he even mentions that

581
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160
things don't add up, like I don't have enough evidence

582
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,960
to really convict him of something. And I'm here thinking

583
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,680
there's people in jail that have been convicted on less evidence.

584
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, just let somebody tell the story and then just

585
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:26,960
be like, so what do you think here? Yeah? The

586
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:31,839
hard part is everybody sees it. But at the moment,

587
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,119
like in the moment when all this was happening, like

588
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,200
the world was shut down. And the thing I remember

589
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,720
about the detective, he's super nice, Like when I talked

590
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,720
to him on the phony, was really really nice. But

591
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:44,920
he kept saying to us so farry and like really

592
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,359
really bogged down. There's so much stuff to do, were

593
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,319
so many cases, and he just made it sound like

594
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,200
he just this is just more than he could kind

595
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,640
of handle, you know, at the moment. And I get it,

596
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,440
I do understand, but I mean we emailed him. That's

597
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,559
poor guy. Probably was like I need to change my

598
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,640
email address because these women keep out of the peace.

599
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,680
We emailed him, We called him and left messages and

600
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,559
he didn't. He never responded ever, So we got one

601
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:15,079
email that was like, hey, we're working on it, and

602
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:17,400
then in August we got a final I'm really sorry

603
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,400
for your loss, but it looks like it's a suicide

604
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,480
case closed and that was the end of it. And

605
00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:24,400
that was like so heartbreaking because we all just knew

606
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,400
that that's not really what was happening.

607
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: My speculation at that time, I think you touched on

608
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,079
a little bit, was this happened right at the height

609
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:35,640
of COVID, and we got to try and put ourselves

610
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,240
back in that mindset where nobody knew what was going on.

611
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,359
It Still, it took us over a year to really

612
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:43,839
get a grasp of how intense it was and what

613
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,759
was really happening. But in that beginning, there was a

614
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:49,200
lot of panic, a lot of confusion, and I feel

615
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,599
like in normal peace time this would have probably been

616
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,720
looked at a little bit closer than it was. Oh yeah, I.

617
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,839
Speaker 2: Mean we tried it, feel like, yeah, yeah, I tried

618
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,519
getting the video surveillance footage from the Tacoma's Tacoma narrow

619
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:09,519
Bridge and I was told that they the video gets

620
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:13,920
deleted after a certain amount of time, which whatever that's fine,

621
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:17,400
but why didn't the detective pull this video? I mean,

622
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:22,519
the van potentially had Like even though that like homeless

623
00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:25,000
guy or who the drug addict or however was on

624
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,960
the bridge that saw the van saw potentially another person

625
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:30,880
in the van, Like we were like, what is the

626
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,960
incentive for that guy to make that up?

627
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: Well, and that's kind of kind of what stinks is

628
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,559
every little bit of lead that would be kind of

629
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:40,680
like the lynchpin in the entire case, is always hinged

630
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:44,640
on something that's not entirely trustworthy. So you have this

631
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,519
individual who is inebriated, homeless, says he may have seen

632
00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:51,960
two people in the van, but then he makes some

633
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,720
other stuff up. So you almost have to kind of

634
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,119
get in the mind to somebody who may be on

635
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,000
drugs or inebriated. But that always stuck with me because

636
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,759
I feel like when people lied to manipulate, they're going

637
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:03,319
to lie and manipulate in ways that will help them

638
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,200
more so than other people. And I felt the detail

639
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,160
of how many people were in the van is an

640
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,960
innocuous detail that you don't really need to lie about,

641
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,839
so why would.

642
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: You It Just it felt to me like they picked

643
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,319
out and I'm not blaming them necessarily, but it just

644
00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:23,559
felt like they picked out all the stuff that makes

645
00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:26,880
that that made it easy. I'll believe you when you

646
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,319
say I saw her, but I don't believe you when

647
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:32,680
you say there was another person there, like I mean,

648
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,119
and I mean honestly, before I even knew that, I

649
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,920
never saw the fleet. Before, before we even knew that,

650
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,000
I had said to Dora or when we were talking

651
00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,319
about it, I said, that guy's a runner. Right how

652
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,599
far away into the bridge. Dora even drove the road

653
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,799
from her house to the bridge, okay, because we were

654
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,359
talking about like how far away is that? Is that

655
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,799
far enough that you could walk back to the And

656
00:32:57,839 --> 00:32:59,720
I was like, well, you know, if it's far enough,

657
00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:02,720
he could run. I know how long. We even looked

658
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,119
to see because he was bragging about how fast his

659
00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:08,960
miles were, and I said, well, I mean, I think

660
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240
he could probably make it back, and like, you know,

661
00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:14,440
not see who long he According to him, he runs

662
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,759
like a six minute mile. He could probably make it

663
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:19,640
back pretty fast. And I mean, if you're adrenaline pumping,

664
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,519
you'll probably get back there pretty quick.

665
00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: Right, So if so he told you he did what

666
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,480
seventeen miles when he's running. Do you feel like he

667
00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:30,000
was exaggerating or is that something where you believe where

668
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,000
he can actually do those types of distances at those speeds.

669
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he really is a long distance runner,

670
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:38,640
and I think he really does run. I think he

671
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,240
really does that.

672
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: So did you and Dora, like you said she drove

673
00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:45,359
the route, did you have Yeah, did you like kind

674
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:47,599
of think about it and speculate what it would have

675
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,480
taken him to run back, like in time or his ability?

676
00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:52,039
Speaker 2: There's only five miles away, I.

677
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,559
Speaker 1: Believe, Yeah, Well I don't know as flies, but you'd

678
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,400
like I remember looking at the map and the road

679
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,000
kind of looped around to get to the bridge.

680
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: Well, Dora has a video of her driving from Gwen's

681
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,119
house to the to the bridge. She has a video.

682
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,000
I mean it's not it's not like an easy, quick,

683
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:14,840
little but I mean, if you're an experienced runner, like

684
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:17,480
you could run. I can't even understand. This is the

685
00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:21,440
other thing. Okay, when wore glasses, she was blinded about

686
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,679
that her glasses. How did she drive? You saw the

687
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,480
video of what she looked like when she was leaving

688
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,639
her house. How in the world is she going to

689
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:33,199
get down this windy, dark, tree lined road. How is

690
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,920
she getting from her house to this bridge? How is

691
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,239
that happening? Like? How would you even She couldn't even

692
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,159
put her key in her door? Like how do you

693
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,639
even know, Oh, I'm now going to drive to this

694
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,320
bridge that's fifteen minutes away or whatever it is, Like

695
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,159
she couldn't even do put a key.

696
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,119
Speaker 1: In the speculation at least, what Eric's story was was

697
00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:52,840
she couldn't put the key in the door because she

698
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,039
was inebriated, potentially on pills. Do you feel like was

699
00:34:56,039 --> 00:34:57,880
her vision really bad enough? Or that could have been

700
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,559
a vision thing?

701
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I could have been a mix

702
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,719
of both. I know when I was listening and when

703
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,159
I listened to the podcast again and they were saying, like,

704
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,440
you know she had or we were talking about the

705
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,880
ostocy or the toxicology and we were talking about how

706
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,320
you know she had that drug in her system. Yeah,

707
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,840
but we don't really ever know how many how many

708
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,440
pills were in this bottle in the first place, Like,

709
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,960
I mean, I don't know how much was in the bottle.

710
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:25,920
I don't know how much was in her system. And

711
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,679
remember she is only like one hundred pounds she's like

712
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,239
a teeny little person.

713
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and someone else that we talked to also

714
00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:36,000
mentioned that, Okay, if she had taken a whole bottle

715
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:39,599
of that medication again, she wouldn't have been able to

716
00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:41,920
drive all the way to the bridge without not crash

717
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,840
total in her car.

718
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,679
Speaker 1: Right right.

719
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,599
Speaker 3: I've made a connection with the neighbor that lives down

720
00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:50,920
the street from them, and she's like, it's hard to

721
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,360
drive that street in the daylight, you know, when I

722
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,000
have all my functions. She's like, there's no way you

723
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,559
could drive down that street. And there's just like, I

724
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:03,480
don't know. It's just so frustrating.

725
00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,079
Speaker 2: But it got me thinking to no, obviously, we would

726
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:07,800
love We're going to keep trying to get a hold

727
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,840
of that detective because I think it'd be great to

728
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,039
talk to him about this case. But if it's still

729
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,360
it's still I can't understand why that footage of the

730
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,480
bridge wasn't pulled unless as a police department, like you

731
00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:22,920
were saying, the guy's overworked. They want to just get

732
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,519
click cases closed. One way to make sure this doesn't

733
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:30,239
turn into a murder investigation is pulling evidence that would

734
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,400
show that it was murdered. They know the footage gets

735
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,599
deleted after so many days, and maybe they're just like,

736
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:37,760
you know what, I bet he did murder her. But

737
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,639
you know what, if we don't have this video footage,

738
00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:42,119
we can't bring him up on charges.

739
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: Right exactly beneath that, okay? And also, can I just say,

740
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,400
can I just speculate again, just sure from talking to

741
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,079
people that Gwen was stashing money around in different places,

742
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:59,360
like different banks around the area. And I believe that

743
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:01,360
that is the BECA because she was planning on leaving.

744
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,400
I don't know that for sure that it is pure

745
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,760
speculation on my part, but she was putting money in

746
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,800
places because she was planning on being able to, like

747
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,320
I need to have money to survive, like when I

748
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,039
get out of here.

749
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: And did you hear that from her or from a

750
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,320
source that you would deem credible.

751
00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I did not hear that from her, Okay, I

752
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,519
heard it from I got it from somebody. And then so,

753
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,519
I mean, it's expensive to get divorced. It's hard, you know,

754
00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:29,920
That's what It's going to cost you a lot of

755
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,000
money and you're going to have to pay you know,

756
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,199
you'll have to pay it to support your kids.

757
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,679
Speaker 1: Outside of that, what you said before about he would

758
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,519
march around outside with a gun, threatening her if she

759
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:43,079
called the police. So it sounded like he had a

760
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:48,079
control issue, and I'm almost wondering if she if again

761
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:50,679
we're going to go down the speculation path of I'm

762
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:52,800
going to trust the information that you heard, because what

763
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,719
we've been hearing from people that were close to her

764
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,960
has pretty much turned out to be accurate. So let's

765
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,719
assume she's storing money around town and planning to divorce.

766
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:04,800
I almost wonder if it's possible she broke the news

767
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,519
to him that night and he freaked out.

768
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 3: It could definitely be the case. That could definitely be

769
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,039
the case. She reached out to me for help for

770
00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:18,679
him when he was suicidal. I mean, so there's there's

771
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,719
just no way in my mind that she would like

772
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,800
she would not leave her kid with him. There is

773
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,440
no way she would do that. There is no way

774
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,599
she would not do that. She's a super smart person.

775
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:34,760
She knows about drugs, she was in nursing, she knows

776
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,000
about drugs and how drugs were Just no way that

777
00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:40,400
she would do that to herself.

778
00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, that's the impression we've been getting from everyone

779
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,239
that's known her. Is there's no way she would commit

780
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,119
suicide over something like COVID or anything, especially because she

781
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:52,519
wouldn't want to leave her kids.

782
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,679
Speaker 1: I think it's I think outside of let's even if

783
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,199
he wasn't had all these episodes, I still think I'm

784
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:02,920
not a mother. My wife is. But a thing changes

785
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,639
when you have children, and especially if you feel like

786
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:10,119
there's a thread at home. I can't imagine her leaving that.

787
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,920
And that's where I think the biggest because I always

788
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,480
try and play devil's advocate. I always try and really

789
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:19,440
step outside of my emotional prediction of what's happening. And

790
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,440
I think the thing that threw me off the worst

791
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:24,119
was and you said you listened to the podcast, the

792
00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:28,159
part where when the detective called him to basically tell

793
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,039
him that they found the van, and when he said, no,

794
00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:35,440
the van's here, she's here, everything's fine, and then all

795
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,480
of a sudden it changed. I think that was like

796
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:41,800
the biggest red flag ever. Is he maybe lost control,

797
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,760
did something and in the heat of the moment, is

798
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,000
trying to cover it up, but is not thinking clearly

799
00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:50,599
yet and is saying things that are very damning that

800
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,519
seem very damning to us. I think I made the

801
00:39:53,519 --> 00:39:56,559
comment that I'm basing it off of just watching detective shows,

802
00:39:56,599 --> 00:39:59,039
so that's not really a good a good indicator, but

803
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,559
I I kept throwing it back because I like to

804
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:03,599
give people to benefit of the doubt, and I keep

805
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:07,039
throwing it back to that is obvious, but maybe not

806
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,599
if you're a police department dealing with the initial weeks

807
00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:11,559
of COVID. Yeah.

808
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think our goal of talking

809
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,239
with you, and we've got we're trying to get more

810
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,760
interviews scheduled in the coming week, is eventually to get

811
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,519
this case reopened. I think if enough pressure is brought

812
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,199
onto the police department, the local government, that maybe some

813
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,280
of the local news organizations start picking up this case.

814
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:32,599
Speaker 1: I don't know.

815
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: One of our recent episodes, the podcast called Luminal, got

816
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,760
wind of this case and they're going to start talking

817
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,760
about it on their podcast, and they're reaching out to

818
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,320
other podcasters they know to try to and I told them,

819
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,280
I said, spread spread the story far and wide, because

820
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,159
the ultimate goal is to get the case reopen.

821
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,639
Speaker 3: Agreed, Yeah, it was.

822
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: I remember when we first started looking into it, we

823
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,760
started speculating a little nervous about saying that because you

824
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,199
don't want to just randomly accuse. But I haven't talk

825
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,000
to a single person yet who hasn't made it seem

826
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,559
more and more clear that it's that it just keeps

827
00:41:07,559 --> 00:41:08,960
getting worse and worse and worse.

828
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, Amanda, I think she probably reached

829
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,199
out to too. Was a friend of Gwen's in high school,

830
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,039
and she sent your podcast actually to a couple of

831
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,320
different reporters out one in Seattle area and one in

832
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,480
the Tacoma area. I think, so we've been just like

833
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,119
listening because we're just like, I mean, we're you guys

834
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,280
did the work like they don't. You don't even have

835
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,079
to do anything, just listen. Just all you have to

836
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:35,880
do is listen to it. She even put it at

837
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,079
the bottom for you and one guy. One guy said oh, sorry,

838
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:42,119
I can't. I can't listen to three hours worth of

839
00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:44,320
stuff and was like, I mean, but you should. You

840
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,400
should listen to it because you would not be able

841
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:47,079
to shut it off.

842
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:47,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

843
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of those stories that you see

844
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,960
on like Dateline, NBC or the First forty eight, or

845
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,039
there's been murder cases that have had convictions with less evidence.

846
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,599
I feel like I know but I truly do.

847
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 3: Our family it's so sick of hearing this, and they're

848
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,440
so thankful that I'm talking to someone else about it

849
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,239
because Okay, got it, Yeah, we got it.

850
00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: And that can be kind of maddening too. If it's

851
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:10,360
if you feel like there's something there and you feel

852
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,840
like nothing's being done about it, I can only imagine,

853
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,199
and it's different, but we do all these cases. If

854
00:42:15,199 --> 00:42:17,400
you listen to their show, it's when family members go

855
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,119
missing and people feel helpless, And that's kind of what

856
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:22,079
we're getting when we talk to people, is this feeling

857
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,480
of helplessness that they feel like there's something there but

858
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,559
nothing's being done about it. So we need to make

859
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:29,920
enough noise that at least it gets looked into at

860
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,760
an official level. And I think this is going to

861
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,440
do that. And I really hope that this will will

862
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:37,519
kick off a lot of times when people are nervous,

863
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:39,920
they need to see someone else step up and do it.

864
00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:43,159
And I really think that you doing this with us

865
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,840
will be that tipping point, hopefully to have more people

866
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,239
feel more comfortable reaching out and telling us their story

867
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,360
and from their mouth, because I as much as I'll

868
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,400
repeat what they say, I think it is more impactful

869
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,559
and more powerful coming from the person who experienced it.

870
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,079
Speaker 3: Well, I hope you know I said the right thing.

871
00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:05,599
I was like, I just I just have been waiting

872
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,760
to tell the story to somebody who you know, it's

873
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,239
not my family and friends that kind of can't do

874
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,320
anything to help. And I don't know which one of

875
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,079
you said it, but one of you says, I really

876
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:18,239
believe that he had something to do with it. But

877
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,719
I will gladly listen if you can prove to me

878
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,239
that he didn't.

879
00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:24,639
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, we.

880
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:27,079
Speaker 1: Would even have him on the show. Yeah, I said

881
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:28,960
that in the podcast. If he calls in wants to

882
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,000
talk to me, I'm going to grill him. If when

883
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,920
he hears this, I will grill him and I will

884
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,719
tell him, hey, I think you did this. You need

885
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,920
to convince me you didn't, and you need to do

886
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,079
a damn good job because all the arrows point in

887
00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:41,119
the direction of you did it.

888
00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 3: And and that's exactly right. If you can prove to

889
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,840
me that you didn't and this was, you know, a legitimate,

890
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:51,400
you know, suicide, I'll send him. I'll send him a

891
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,960
bouquet and say I'm sorry, but I cannot there's no,

892
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:57,159
there's It would take a lot for me to change

893
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:58,320
my mind. It would take a lot.

894
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:00,639
Speaker 2: It's just we got to get you just got to

895
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,320
keep getting the word out there, get spreading the case message.

896
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,639
And it's starting to happen now there's other podcasts that

897
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:11,280
are talking about it, and I think it's I think

898
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,519
this year, it's probably later in the year, it's really

899
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:15,880
going to the ball will start rolling, especially after our

900
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,719
third episode. With all these interviews, we'll probably have to

901
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,960
release some multi parts because it really wouldn't do it

902
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:24,360
justice to obviously, will cut out the pieces that you

903
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,480
don't want said. But I think your interview and I'm

904
00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:29,559
hopefully I'm talking to Dora tomorrow afternoon.

905
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 3: He will have so much stuff to tell you. She

906
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:36,360
has so because she was literally right there when the

907
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,880
police came and and told him what happened, like he

908
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:44,440
was right there, So she knows all that stuff. She

909
00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:47,719
knows everything. Okay, she is like a great person to

910
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,719
talk to you. I appreciate you guys so much. I

911
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,639
can't even tell you. It's like, let's my heart rests

912
00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:55,159
a little because this has been super hard and so

913
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,960
I appreciate you doing this.

914
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: So don think thank you very much for taking the time.

915
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 3: I'm thank you.

916
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: We appreciate you for doing this, and let's hope we

917
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,400
can blow this thing up and move that needle forward.

918
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,559
So that was our full interview with Dawn and if

919
00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:16,599
for those watching, and we do encourage people just listening.

920
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,079
We've been kind of flipping through Instagram posts, Google searches.

921
00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:25,559
The video they mentioned about Dora driving from their home

922
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:28,599
to the bridge is still playing. Yeah, and this is

923
00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:30,760
one of the key things I want to discuss right

924
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,039
away because I'm just thinking about it. So the theory right, go.

925
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 2: Ahead, Oh no, so we're watching this video, it's what

926
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:38,679
are we ten minutes in?

927
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: Now? It's yeah, it's gotta be.

928
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: And the original theory we have the ring doorbell video

929
00:45:44,599 --> 00:45:49,159
was that she was ineberated on pills and which is

930
00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:50,760
why she had a hard time getting your keys in

931
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,800
the door, which then brought up the question of how

932
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,719
was she able to drive her car to the bridge

933
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,400
without totaling it or crashing it.

934
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: And what we heard in that interview now Don said

935
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,000
she's basically blind as a bat with out her glasses,

936
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,119
which she didn't have. So if let's assume both things

937
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:07,800
are true, let's assume she took too many pills and

938
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,320
didn't have her glasses. As we're watching this video, it's

939
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:16,000
still going heavily forested, ye turns, lots of turns, construction.

940
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: No street lights on most of a lot of the roads.

941
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,599
So you got to assume it's dark because it was

942
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:23,760
at night, middle of the night. It would just be

943
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:28,559
a miracle if you could make this drive without glasses,

944
00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:31,920
if you're basically legally blind without them. And aneberated on

945
00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:35,719
what kind of pills were those again and show are

946
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,000
they like sleeping pills or.

947
00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 4: No benzo diazepines, so like a xanax type pill for depression.

948
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: Once again, the go right into the mic. Okay, there

949
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:45,840
you go.

950
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 4: The police report does not mention the toxicology came back

951
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,519
is having these inner system, but we have no idea

952
00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:57,599
how many were consumed, the amount of the benzo diazepines

953
00:46:57,599 --> 00:46:59,760
in our system, and just watching this video, it is

954
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,480
difficult drive sober, and it's hard to believe that you

955
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:07,400
could do this inebriated or lacking vision.

956
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:12,039
Speaker 1: Now I agree, it's a mix of like deep forested roads,

957
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,920
it's a mix of highway the turns now. This was

958
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,280
a little bit after but the construction on that bridge

959
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,000
was probably still going on. That's speculation now because this

960
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:26,039
is obviously after the fact, but it's pretty close to

961
00:47:26,079 --> 00:47:28,800
the incident when this is also happening. That this is

962
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,559
the film that Dora had filmed, so this is too

963
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:34,800
construction doesn't start and finish that quick, right, they seem

964
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,119
to be pretty much in it. And then Andy, you

965
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:38,719
host the question in the middle of when we were

966
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,280
watching this as it passed, it's like there's a bridge,

967
00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:45,079
r Like, why if you're gonna go do something like that,

968
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:46,519
why go to that one?

969
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,199
Speaker 2: And my next question is if she took all those pills,

970
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,519
presumable basically to kill herself with pills, why would you

971
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:57,760
then go and drive somewhere to then jump off a bridge?

972
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:58,039
Speaker 3: Right?

973
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, who does I am?

974
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert in this area of like psychology

975
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,679
or anything, but I don't know that you hear about

976
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,800
people trying multiple forms of suicide in one attempt.

977
00:48:11,559 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: It's possible that I don't see why part I'm with

978
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:16,000
you obviously.

979
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just another thing that just doesn't make sense.

980
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:21,519
Speaker 1: What were you gonna say? Andy?

981
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 4: I just wanted to back up a little bit. So

982
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,039
this is the first time that I've heard the interview,

983
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:27,360
and I think context is key to all this. So

984
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:30,400
we're watching this video right now, and it's obviously a

985
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,280
difficult drive, but I see that it's posted from May

986
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,440
twenty twenty, So we're looking at this and there's already

987
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,920
questions about like, how could she make this drive? Why

988
00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:44,159
are we recording this video? Looking at what this drive entails?

989
00:48:44,159 --> 00:48:46,760
And it really signifies what we've been talking about the

990
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,079
whole time, that not everything adds up in this case.

991
00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:51,840
The story doesn't seem to make sense. And there's a

992
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:52,880
lot of questions out there.

993
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I made the point of the

994
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,840
video from the bridge. Why wasn't that pulled by the detective?

995
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,400
And I honestly think that I don't think they were

996
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:09,039
on purpose doing that, but I think they probably did

997
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:12,440
it because they didn't want this to turn into a

998
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:16,360
full blown investigation. They you know, let's rule it a suicide,

999
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,320
clothes that be done with it. COVID's going on, could

1000
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,119
be the Black plague, we don't know what this is.

1001
00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:23,360
Let's just close this case, get it over with.

1002
00:49:24,159 --> 00:49:27,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think they realized. I really don't

1003
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:29,239
think they realized she jumped off the bridge right away,

1004
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:32,360
if you think about it, because they weren't really looking

1005
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,360
in the water at all. It was not until somebody

1006
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,679
else called in the body at the port or where

1007
00:49:38,679 --> 00:49:41,079
they found it that it became that. But because they're

1008
00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:45,079
dealing with the word of that potentially homeless, inebriated gentleman

1009
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:47,960
who said he might have saw one person who gave

1010
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,079
him the van, there might have been two people in

1011
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:52,400
the car, so they probably even know what they were

1012
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:52,920
dealing with.

1013
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: That video would have been live and available to get

1014
00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:58,079
be pulled by lawnforce, and I think for sixty or

1015
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:02,360
ninety days, so there's no excuse why thirty days later

1016
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:02,719
they didn't.

1017
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: That is like your big crux just bucks me, because

1018
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:08,519
it does. There would be no not wrong. I just

1019
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:10,079
that that there would be no way for him to

1020
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:12,199
get off that bridge. He would have he would be

1021
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,599
caught on video, yeah, running running, Yeah, at.

1022
00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:17,639
Speaker 2: Two in the morning or whenever this was in the morning.

1023
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,480
That is very damning evidence based on all of the

1024
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:24,519
other statements that he made about how she left on

1025
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:27,920
her own and this and that, like that would be

1026
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,880
you're the lawyer here, but that would pre significant evidence.

1027
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,440
If they had video of him running off the bridge.

1028
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:35,679
Speaker 4: I think that would be yes.

1029
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think you have to be a lawyer

1030
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,320
to know that one running away from the scene of

1031
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,559
a crime. Yes, when you said you weren't there.

1032
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 4: And this is the some of the value from Down's interviews.

1033
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,519
She was here during all this, right, she was an

1034
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:51,480
active part of what's going on. And she said she

1035
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:54,320
had communications with the detective. And we came to this

1036
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,239
case years after the fact, and we're speculating. We all

1037
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,199
know what it was like in the immediate aftermath of COVID,

1038
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:04,000
but she had conversations with the detective and everything was

1039
00:51:04,039 --> 00:51:06,320
shut down. It was crazy. They were bogged down and

1040
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,639
work and it just doesn't seem like something that's tied

1041
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,239
up tied up very well from a police investigation.

1042
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, we speculated that in the other episodes of.

1043
00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: Here's here'd be a camera going through a toll booth. Yeah,

1044
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,199
like you would clearly see who'd be driving the car. Yeah, absolutely,

1045
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,119
And if don if Gwen was really integrated, dollar to

1046
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,800
Holy Cow or blind, you would see Eric driving the.

1047
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: Car or like her, not only your ability to get there,

1048
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,880
pay the toll, not crash into the stuff, you know,

1049
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,639
those tolls they narrow so you can't get around them,

1050
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,079
and you don't.

1051
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,559
Speaker 2: So riddle me this. They looked like a toll booth

1052
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:45,880
was had an attendant, right.

1053
00:51:46,039 --> 00:51:49,679
Speaker 1: Well, go back. We have the power of reverse.

1054
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,639
Speaker 2: So this is another thing. If I was a detective,

1055
00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:52,400
I would have done.

1056
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: Far enough. Here you go.

1057
00:51:56,159 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: So maybe it's like an Illinois there's booths.

1058
00:51:58,559 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: Now there's booths, so you've gotta maybe they're.

1059
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:03,519
Speaker 3: Cook you know.

1060
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,159
Speaker 1: Here we go. I can do this. Let's see if

1061
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:11,800
she's talking talks to somebody. Yep, she's talking to a person.

1062
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:14,480
So yeah, are these are these toll booths manned in

1063
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,760
the early morning? I mute that so sorry.

1064
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:18,119
Speaker 3: You know.

1065
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: So if there was a tollbooth operator working at the

1066
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,400
time and this woman pulls up completely hammered out of

1067
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,440
her mind, yeah, and can't see he can't see some pills,

1068
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,159
don't you think they would have mentioned something or would

1069
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:35,480
have called the police and been like, hey, this lady,

1070
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,199
because they would probably just assume she's drunk, or more importantly, hey,

1071
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,239
last night a van got appeared in something like did

1072
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,000
you see this van who worked last night?

1073
00:52:44,119 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: Interview those individuals? Did you see this car come through

1074
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:49,400
were there are two people in it? Was there one

1075
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,000
person that they seem inebriated.

1076
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: They're probably trained, or at least told if you see

1077
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,440
somebody that's drunk come through the toll booth, call the

1078
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,840
police because they're going to scoop them up for drunk driving.

1079
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,760
That seems pretty reasonable. Now, if someone else was driving

1080
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,519
the van and Gwen was just in it, perfectly normal situation,

1081
00:53:08,639 --> 00:53:12,599
you wouldn't think anything else. So that would be another area.

1082
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:14,400
If I was a detective, I would have gone and

1083
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,519
asked who was on shift last night work in the

1084
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:20,400
toll booth, did you see anything strange come through at

1085
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,239
this time? That seems very basic detective work.

1086
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 4: And I think one thing to note here, and Joey

1087
00:53:26,039 --> 00:53:28,159
brought it up while we were playing the interview, is

1088
00:53:28,199 --> 00:53:31,519
that we had been operating under this assumption that she

1089
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,519
took a bottle of pills and drove to the bridge.

1090
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:37,559
Right we saw this video that came from I think

1091
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:40,239
it was a Facebook post from Eric. But the only

1092
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,519
thing we have confirming that is the police report, which

1093
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:45,239
does not speak to the amount of the bids of

1094
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,639
diazepines in her system. And now we know that she

1095
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,719
wasn't able to see if she was leaving without her glasses,

1096
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,639
she might have not been intoxicated at under pills at all. Right,

1097
00:53:55,679 --> 00:53:57,719
So we need to peel back these layers.

1098
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,119
Speaker 1: And it's absolutely a possibility where one.

1099
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 4: That maybe her inability to fit the key in the

1100
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,400
lock and kind of swaying is vision issues and not intoxication,

1101
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:10,039
not some sort of a suicide attempt.

1102
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: Well, and if she got in a fight with her husband,

1103
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,760
not only vision issues. She's upset, so you go outside,

1104
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,719
if she's been crying, she can't see dous everglasses, she's

1105
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,280
just in a whatever. And I think what's important is

1106
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:26,480
it's it doesn't see in Everyone says this, And I'm

1107
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,480
not going to give anything away because we do have

1108
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:30,800
Dora's interview that we're gonna do next. So there's a

1109
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,280
lot more information in that one that I'm trying to

1110
00:54:33,519 --> 00:54:37,639
not introduce just because it's not the right time. But

1111
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,079
why would she pull the trigger on doing this to herself?

1112
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:42,599
Speaker 3: Now?

1113
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: What occurred? Because everything we've been hearing from her friend

1114
00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:48,880
is that things were getting better, things were looking up,

1115
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,920
everything was getting better. She loved her kids, she would

1116
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,119
never leave her kids. All those positive things that we're

1117
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:59,159
hearing about happen right before this incident. Usually when people

1118
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,920
do something like that, there's a slow decline or they've

1119
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,800
been in a mental state for a long period of

1120
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,960
time and they finally just do it. Everything points in

1121
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:08,960
the direction that she was going the opposite direction in

1122
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,519
a good way, and then all of a sudden, this happens.

1123
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Based on this interview and the other interviews we

1124
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:18,679
have obviously done that we haven't released yet, and comments

1125
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,119
and messages with people, I do not get the impression

1126
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:25,360
at all that Gwen was in a suicidal state before

1127
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:31,639
her death. That's that's based on close friends, family, her

1128
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:35,960
social media posts, just everything about her does not lead

1129
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,159
me to think that. And a lot of times on

1130
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:40,360
our other episodes we say that and we don't really

1131
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:42,960
We don't really know their personal life.

1132
00:55:42,199 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: We don't have this much insight in it.

1133
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,639
Speaker 2: We have a lot of insight into Gwen's final few

1134
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,000
years before her death, and I don't think she was

1135
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:54,800
in a suicidal state. I think maybe I'm not gonna

1136
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:55,519
say I think it's.

1137
00:55:55,599 --> 00:56:00,280
Speaker 1: Possible, but all the indicators point to highly unlikely. It's

1138
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,239
possible where someone can do that, and it's odd. It

1139
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:03,239
seems out of the blue.

1140
00:56:03,639 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think Don mentioned too about

1141
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,280
how Eric seemed to be able to turn emotions on

1142
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,599
and off in a drop of a hat. We've got

1143
00:56:12,639 --> 00:56:14,880
all of these crazy events going on in the pastor

1144
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,079
he's waving guns around saying that he's gonna kill himself. Yeah,

1145
00:56:18,119 --> 00:56:21,800
and I think you factor that in. I think you

1146
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,440
factor in the video of her not being able to

1147
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,039
get the key in the door. Then you look at

1148
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:28,599
this video the drive to the bridge and the toll booth.

1149
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 1: I just it's a long drive. I don't think for

1150
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,960
a long distance runner doable. I don't think she was

1151
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:38,800
driving now that i'm it's it's gotten that very difficult.

1152
00:56:39,119 --> 00:56:41,599
Speaker 2: That's why it's so frustrating. We don't have any of

1153
00:56:41,679 --> 00:56:44,159
the video footage from the bridge, we don't have statements

1154
00:56:44,199 --> 00:56:47,400
from the toll booth operators. And Don made a great

1155
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,960
point about how they believed that homeless guy about the

1156
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:53,679
fact that Gwen was there, but then they don't care

1157
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,920
about the fact he said there was also possibly someone

1158
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:56,639
else in the car.

1159
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:57,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1160
00:56:57,599 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 2: How I mean, it's almost like they were trying to

1161
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,079
not collect evidence.

1162
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: You're really on that, You're really on that they want

1163
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:07,079
to close the case. Train.

1164
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: I mean, why else would you not do some of

1165
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,199
this basic detective work.

1166
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: I see, that's I'm nicer than you on this one.

1167
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,559
I'm not nice in other things. I think COVID fuck.

1168
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,159
I think because again I try and put myself that

1169
00:57:20,199 --> 00:57:25,159
we are in because if I'm recalling properly, like Washington State,

1170
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:28,679
it was like it was like the first few cases

1171
00:57:28,719 --> 00:57:31,119
were coming out of there, people were panicking. And this

1172
00:57:31,199 --> 00:57:33,719
is where I became less anxious about it as we

1173
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:35,440
went on after they found out like, oh, if you're

1174
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,320
healthy and young, still dangerous, but way better. In those

1175
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,480
early days, it's like, okay, first month or two is oh,

1176
00:57:41,519 --> 00:57:43,800
it was like nobody knew what was going to happen. Yeah,

1177
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,280
nobody knew how like it was at that point it

1178
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,679
seemed like mortality rate was like fifty percent, like something crazy.

1179
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:52,440
That's what it felt like. So you have these police

1180
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,480
officers that they're people too. We're gonna go like, there's

1181
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,679
a body floating their cars on the bridge. The only

1182
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:01,800
way to we have as one guy that want the

1183
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,639
husband's at home. It looks like a suicide. If you're

1184
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:07,920
not digging into it like we did, and if you're

1185
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,599
in the beginning of COVID. There's a lot bigger stuff

1186
00:58:10,599 --> 00:58:12,519
going They're probably getting calls all the time from people

1187
00:58:12,559 --> 00:58:15,920
freaking out. True, So if I'm going to give them

1188
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,079
the benefit of the doubt, this looks clear cut if

1189
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:21,519
you don't dig into it. She took pills, she looked

1190
00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:24,559
upset on a video left. The husband seems a little

1191
00:58:24,599 --> 00:58:29,000
quirky if you're just taking initial statements. Okay, he's home.

1192
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,000
I called there, he said he was there. There's a van,

1193
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,760
a weird homeless guy said she saw a lady fall

1194
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,519
off the bridge. There might have been another person, and

1195
00:58:37,559 --> 00:58:40,719
then the bodies in the water. We guess what right there,

1196
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,639
all that information, Yeah, sounds like a suicide.

1197
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:44,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we have the benefit of being able to

1198
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,920
focus all of our time and effort on this case exactly.

1199
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,239
They're focusing on lots of different murders and su awards.

1200
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,039
Speaker 1: If it wasn't COVID, Yeah, maybe they would have dug

1201
00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:56,440
in this deep. Maybe it wasn't they didn't have so

1202
00:58:56,559 --> 00:58:58,679
much going on. But with that going on, I want

1203
00:58:58,719 --> 00:58:59,960
to give them the benefit of the doubt and say

1204
00:59:00,199 --> 00:59:01,360
it was probably chaotic.

1205
00:59:01,559 --> 00:59:03,599
Speaker 4: Well, and another thing to think about here is that

1206
00:59:03,639 --> 00:59:06,480
we have the benefit of what happened after her death

1207
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:09,199
and after they had ruled this a suicide, and we

1208
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,960
look back through the social media posts and saw his

1209
00:59:12,119 --> 00:59:15,400
posts on I'm looking for a woman. I feel like

1210
00:59:15,679 --> 00:59:18,159
a man standing on one leg in the marriage. Three

1211
00:59:18,159 --> 00:59:21,079
months after while they were investigating this, none of that

1212
00:59:21,119 --> 00:59:24,559
had happened yet, so we are backed into this seems

1213
00:59:24,599 --> 00:59:27,679
a little suspicious. But another thing that's interesting to me

1214
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,760
from this interview with Don is she has the same

1215
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,440
suspicion moving forward and long term friends with Gwynn. We

1216
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,800
all have friends from high school that we're very close

1217
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,199
with but have moved apart and communicate those couple of

1218
00:59:41,199 --> 00:59:43,559
times a year. And if one of your friends texts

1219
00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:46,519
you and says, this is gonna be my best year yet,

1220
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:48,920
and then the next thing you hear is that they've

1221
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,320
committed suicide, that's red flags across the place.

1222
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,599
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point because it's not like

1223
00:59:56,159 --> 00:59:58,519
she wasn't being one hundred percent honest with her the

1224
00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:01,360
entire time before that message. Because there are friends you

1225
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,880
have that are maybe good friends but more superficial, you're

1226
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,159
not going to come to them with your dark stuff,

1227
01:00:07,199 --> 01:00:09,280
the things that you need help with yeah, she was

1228
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,440
talking to her well prior to this about the dark stuff.

1229
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,840
She was talking to her through her worst times. And

1230
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,960
to your point, she messaged like, oh my gosh, it's

1231
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,519
getting good. We got the new house, we're in a

1232
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:25,599
wooded area. It's going to be the best year ever.

1233
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,119
And that's when she does it, because it should have

1234
01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:31,559
been in October or November or when we heard that

1235
01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:34,519
there's domestic stuff that was the deepest, darkest part. That's

1236
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:37,519
when someone who's actually going to do suicide probably would

1237
01:00:37,559 --> 01:00:39,840
do it when they're at their lowest, and she was

1238
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,519
coming out of that. Then that's what doesn't add up.

1239
01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:45,159
Speaker 4: The other red flag that jumped out first time listening

1240
01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:47,840
to this interview, and this is news I think across

1241
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,960
the board, is that Dawn had heard that Gwynn was

1242
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:54,920
moving money around, that she was putting money in different banks.

1243
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,320
And the speculation is, well, we don't know, and we

1244
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,000
don't want to speculate, right, but that's.

1245
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you're a lawyer, you shouldn't spell, I can,

1246
01:01:03,119 --> 01:01:05,840
I'll speculate all that. Well, and she did say and

1247
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,639
I think that's fair. I think that is fair to

1248
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,280
put the disclaimer on. And she even mentioned it she

1249
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,360
heard at third party, so Gwen didn't tell her she

1250
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,119
was doing it, but she said she heard it from

1251
01:01:15,119 --> 01:01:18,679
someone who's a credible source. So let's assume again, now

1252
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:21,320
we're speculating, but that's someone who is a close friend

1253
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,039
to Gwen in gig Harbor, potentially, somebody that's close enough

1254
01:01:25,039 --> 01:01:27,840
to know that maybe it's a credible source of If

1255
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,639
she's hiding money places, it's because she's fearing something or

1256
01:01:31,679 --> 01:01:34,199
she's gonna make a move. Again, if you're going to

1257
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:39,159
commit suicide, why would you hide money away from potentially

1258
01:01:39,159 --> 01:01:41,840
getting to your children or the people that might need

1259
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:43,639
to use that. I don't know. I'm sure there's lots

1260
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:46,679
of detectives that are just like really furious that everything

1261
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:48,400
we're saying about this type of stuff.

1262
01:01:48,719 --> 01:01:51,599
Speaker 2: But the reality is we're coming at it from just

1263
01:01:51,639 --> 01:01:54,239
a normal citizen who is taking in all the facts

1264
01:01:55,039 --> 01:01:58,039
and it doesn't make sense. None of it makes sense

1265
01:01:58,079 --> 01:02:01,960
why it wasn't investigated further other than the only caveat

1266
01:02:02,039 --> 01:02:04,039
is we had this crazy thing called COVID going on,

1267
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,119
which is a very plausible reason why things happen the

1268
01:02:08,119 --> 01:02:08,559
way they did.

1269
01:02:08,639 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: And like I said, I always have to put myself

1270
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,719
in the mindset of right at the beginning, because we

1271
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:13,559
look at it and the.

1272
01:02:13,519 --> 01:02:17,639
Speaker 2: Detective come on and explain his reasoning for why these

1273
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,119
various things didn't happen, like why didn't the toll booth

1274
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:22,639
people get talked to? Why wasn't the video pulled? There

1275
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:25,320
may be very explain it.

1276
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: Or maybe they didn't have toll booth people because of COVID.

1277
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,320
Maybe they just left it open. Yeah, maybe I would

1278
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,360
like Yeah, I mean, I'd like to know if there'd

1279
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,880
still be video foot Yes, yeah, I mean we could

1280
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,079
probably call this. I've told both people the dot and.

1281
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,159
Speaker 2: I've run through toll booths in Chicago and you get

1282
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:45,039
a letter in the mail with your a picture of

1283
01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:48,119
you in your car with your license plate saying like

1284
01:02:48,159 --> 01:02:52,000
you didn't pay the toll you're supposed to pay those Yeah,

1285
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,400
I paid it eventually.

1286
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,039
Speaker 4: But I think this all highlights the importance of what

1287
01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:58,320
you guys are doing right here, because we have the

1288
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,480
police report and we know the steps that they went through,

1289
01:03:01,519 --> 01:03:04,360
and we're looking back right hindsight's twenty twenty, obviously, but

1290
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,280
now we have Dawn's interview. I know you have more

1291
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,880
exciting information to come out that you've been able to

1292
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,719
on Earth and we're looking at this story from a

1293
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:17,360
different light that just wasn't present in April in May

1294
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,199
of twenty twenty, when when this investigation was going on.

1295
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:26,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think again, thank you to dawnsitting down

1296
01:03:26,159 --> 01:03:30,159
with us. We're still in contact with her. That every

1297
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,280
The thing that the combines all of these people together

1298
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,599
is they want justice. Y'all really love don or Gwen,

1299
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,760
and they all feel like we do. They're just shocked

1300
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,960
that this happened and nothing happened afterwards, like no one.

1301
01:03:46,079 --> 01:03:48,519
Speaker 1: Well and we're not even related, but I think we

1302
01:03:48,679 --> 01:03:51,079
I mean, Andy, you brought this to me on a

1303
01:03:51,119 --> 01:03:54,639
whim because you became kind of obsessed with it because

1304
01:03:54,639 --> 01:03:58,119
of what you saw, and you're not related. So it's

1305
01:03:58,199 --> 01:04:00,000
so you can only imagine how these people who can

1306
01:04:00,199 --> 01:04:03,320
about her, like directly feel. Family members feel like they

1307
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,280
feel like something needs to be done, something's not happening.

1308
01:04:06,519 --> 01:04:08,840
So we've been getting the overwhelming response of they're so

1309
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,840
glad this is happening now don mentioned it. She's like,

1310
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,039
I can't tell my own family anymore because she's been

1311
01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:18,800
talking about it for two years. Yeah, and I've felt

1312
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,719
helpless before and that is that can eat away at

1313
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,599
you like crazy. So that's to us, we look at

1314
01:04:24,639 --> 01:04:27,880
as if we can use this platform to really shine

1315
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,760
light on this, catapult this to the front, and potentially

1316
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,039
get more news outlets, and I'll involved.

1317
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 2: The end goal is to get the investigation reopened. Yeah,

1318
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,199
I mean, just want a second look at it. I

1319
01:04:38,239 --> 01:04:40,159
throw it out to the listeners. We have a lot

1320
01:04:40,199 --> 01:04:42,079
of people listening to the show now, which is awesome.

1321
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,960
Out of all those people, if you know people that

1322
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,199
are in news media or whatever, this is a this

1323
01:04:46,239 --> 01:04:48,559
could be a big story. Like I said, I'm not

1324
01:04:48,559 --> 01:04:52,400
as mean as Mike is. I'm just gonna say it.

1325
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,559
It was a very convenient time for all of this

1326
01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:57,760
stuff to happen. And if you're gonna get away with

1327
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,440
a crime, that was the time to do it when the.

1328
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: Entire world was disheveled. That's to me, is like what

1329
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:09,039
a lucky opportunity to have something where someone might not

1330
01:05:09,079 --> 01:05:10,840
look as closely because of everything else.

1331
01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 2: That's going And I'm not being mean to the police.

1332
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm giving you a hard time.

1333
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 4: No, I'm just.

1334
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 2: Bringing up valid questions I have. If I was a

1335
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,800
close family member, I would have asked those exact same things, like,

1336
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,000
all right, did you talk to the tolbooth operators?

1337
01:05:23,079 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: No? Okay? Why not?

1338
01:05:24,079 --> 01:05:25,639
Speaker 2: Did you pull the video from the bridge?

1339
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 3: No?

1340
01:05:26,039 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Okay? Why not?

1341
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:31,079
Speaker 2: Did you investigate further once you learned of all the

1342
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:33,920
other things that happened around Gwen in the last couple

1343
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:34,880
of years, Okay?

1344
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:35,239
Speaker 1: Why not?

1345
01:05:35,599 --> 01:05:37,639
Speaker 2: Like I would ask those questions if I was a

1346
01:05:37,679 --> 01:05:40,280
close family member, and I'd be really mad if they

1347
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:41,679
didn't dig deeper into that.

1348
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:43,519
Speaker 4: And I think you have a good point, Mike. So

1349
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:45,920
when we I think the first episode, maybe even the

1350
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,239
second episode, we were looking at this, we had Gwen's

1351
01:05:49,239 --> 01:05:52,039
obituary and no family was mentioned. And now we have

1352
01:05:52,079 --> 01:05:54,360
a maybe a little bit of reasoning for why there

1353
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,599
was no family mentioned. And our speculation was, hey, maybe

1354
01:05:57,639 --> 01:06:01,800
no one's putting pressure to answers to these questions. Now

1355
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,239
we know they were, and it was mentioned in the

1356
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,320
police report, and you guys are digging up the answers

1357
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:08,360
to the questions.

1358
01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:10,519
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. And he speculated just a tiny bit at

1359
01:06:10,519 --> 01:06:13,400
the end and just said I've informed any family to

1360
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:18,360
bring any information forward. And maybe as a detective, he's

1361
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,840
got rules that he has to bye by. He can't

1362
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,360
just go around and do the speculating that we might

1363
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,239
be able to because we're a podcast show. He's got

1364
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,119
to have hard evidence, and everything is just shy of

1365
01:06:28,159 --> 01:06:30,880
that hard evidence. Okay, I got kind of a witness.

1366
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,360
It's a homeless guy who's completely inebriated.

1367
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 2: And most police departments are taxed to the max on

1368
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:42,119
case loads, and they don't have the time without COVID.

1369
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:44,559
Without COVID, they don't have the time or resources to

1370
01:06:44,719 --> 01:06:49,000
dig back into old cases they've closed. Especially, this isn't

1371
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:51,559
like a murder case that they closed because they couldn't

1372
01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:55,119
find a killer. They closed a suicide, so they don't

1373
01:06:55,159 --> 01:06:58,800
have the resource. There has to probably be very like

1374
01:06:59,039 --> 01:07:02,039
a smoking gun to get them to reopen.

1375
01:07:02,199 --> 01:07:04,679
Speaker 1: I think on its surface level, it looks like a suicide.

1376
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,119
If I'm being fair, it's we found the body. Toxicology

1377
01:07:08,159 --> 01:07:11,679
shows benzodiazepines in the system. Granted we didn't see how much.

1378
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:14,960
But you have the witness saying, ah, a slave crusher

1379
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:17,239
fan and gave me the keys, and then I saw

1380
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,199
a shadow fall off the bridge on its face right

1381
01:07:20,239 --> 01:07:23,159
then and there. Hey, I'm sorry, it sounds and looks

1382
01:07:23,199 --> 01:07:25,400
like a suicide. I've got COVID to go deal with.

1383
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,440
I've got two hundred other calls of people panicking. I'm

1384
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,039
worried for my life, my own family. They are human,

1385
01:07:31,559 --> 01:07:34,000
after all, And if we're looking down the barrel of

1386
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:37,800
what looks like a huge worldwide plague, what's the mindset

1387
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,360
the detective? He could He's probably a good dude. He

1388
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,760
probably is a good detective. But again, holy cow, is

1389
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,840
everyone gonna die? I need to beat my family. This

1390
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:47,960
looks like a suicide. I'm going home.

1391
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 2: And maybe they didn't want to interview all these people

1392
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,639
because of risk of getting COVIDI. Absolutely, like you know what.

1393
01:07:53,679 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: The less contact. Remember they were letting people get away

1394
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,599
with speeding. They were the officers I'm friends with were

1395
01:07:58,599 --> 01:08:00,920
told not two pole cars over. That's why the guy

1396
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:02,320
broke the cannonball run record.

1397
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 4: I think with the change in protocol, right, there's.

1398
01:08:05,239 --> 01:08:08,159
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, they said just don't engage, don't like because

1399
01:08:08,199 --> 01:08:10,079
everyone didn't know what was going to happen.

1400
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

1401
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: Very interesting. Did you have any closing and Andy.

1402
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:15,679
Speaker 4: No, I think you've hit it all on the head.

1403
01:08:15,679 --> 01:08:18,840
And honestly, I think that this is very encouraging. I

1404
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,720
know that Dawn reached out to you. You've been in

1405
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,560
contact with more people, and really what's happening is the

1406
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,199
questions are being answered. You guys are getting there and

1407
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,680
any light that shed on this is positive.

1408
01:08:30,119 --> 01:08:33,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I agree with Andy. Yes, I think we're

1409
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:34,000
doing a good shot.

1410
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:36,399
Speaker 2: And if there's any other people at host podcast, True

1411
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,039
Crime podcast listening, reach out to us if you want

1412
01:08:39,039 --> 01:08:41,479
to talk and if you truly didn't do it, we

1413
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:43,640
want to get to the bottom of that too and

1414
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,560
clear all speculation.

1415
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,399
Speaker 1: Yep. Absolutely, I will say as a teaser going forward,

1416
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:54,439
we have another interview coming up with Dora's stepsister. No,

1417
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,840
with Dora, Oh yeah, with Gwen's stepsister. I'm sorry, I'm

1418
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:01,000
getting all the name. It's down. Dora's so close, but

1419
01:09:01,079 --> 01:09:05,760
there's even different information, more information. That interview was almost

1420
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,600
two hours, and then we did remove some things that

1421
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:10,199
she was not comfortable with, so it's gonna end up

1422
01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:12,720
being about just the interview piece about an hour forty

1423
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,119
five and hour fifty. Will be planning to record that

1424
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:18,359
one next. We're gonna let this one sit for a while,

1425
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,079
get people's feedback. We're hoping that the other people that

1426
01:09:22,239 --> 01:09:25,960
either interviewed with us or expressed interests that were worried

1427
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,079
about doing it will bring forward some of that information

1428
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:31,800
because outside of these two interviews, Yeah, there's even more

1429
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,960
information that these two people didn't have that those people

1430
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,840
are not comfortable sharing. And we've always stood by our word.

1431
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,119
We're sitting on this stuff. If they never wanted out there,

1432
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:43,279
it's gonna go to the grave with Mike and I

1433
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,279
and Andy because we're not gonna sell anybody out. But

1434
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,119
we hope that this gets more people interested in sharing

1435
01:09:49,159 --> 01:09:52,680
their story and information they have. What were we gonna say, Mike, Oh,

1436
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,479
I was just gonna say, we have I think we've

1437
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:58,000
got ten more people lined up to interview. Oh really, Yeah,

1438
01:09:58,039 --> 01:10:00,359
that's even more than what I thought. Holy cow, there's

1439
01:10:00,359 --> 01:10:05,000
a lot of people coming out and what's really not

1440
01:10:05,119 --> 01:10:08,359
shocking to me, but almost reinforcing it is and I

1441
01:10:08,399 --> 01:10:09,479
have to think of a way to say it to

1442
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:13,800
not reveal anything. People who you people who contacted us,

1443
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,520
who just based on who they were in the relationship

1444
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,840
to Eric. I thought we're going to be a finally

1445
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,239
good counterpoint to everything we've been saying. And I have

1446
01:10:22,359 --> 01:10:23,920
not gotten that out of any of them yet.

1447
01:10:24,279 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is universally across the spectrum of various people, friends, family, coworkers,

1448
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,880
whoever they are, They've all come to the same conclusion,

1449
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:36,960
which where in life when you talk to dozens of

1450
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,720
people across the country from different where.

1451
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:42,239
Speaker 1: In life nowadays do you see consensus.

1452
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: And census Where Yeah, different ages, different genders, different jobs,

1453
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,920
different relationships with the people who are talking about everyone

1454
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:52,359
has come to the same conclusion. That does not happen anymore.

1455
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:56,159
Speaker 1: It does not know. Thanks again for tuning into our show.

1456
01:10:56,199 --> 01:10:58,920
We appreciate all of you for listening and sharing locations

1457
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,520
and known with your friends and family. Be sure to

1458
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,640
like and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We

1459
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:06,880
also have the YouTube channel going so if you want

1460
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:08,960
to watch the video. The entire time we were recording

1461
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:10,880
this show, while the interview is happening, I was throwing

1462
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,760
up images, videos, or things that were relevant to the case.

1463
01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:16,279
If you want to support us monetarily, you can visit

1464
01:11:16,319 --> 01:11:19,359
our store on either the Facebook page or at our website.

1465
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:23,239
You can also subscribe to Patreon or YouTube subscriptions to

1466
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:27,039
get access to additional content outside of our public content.

1467
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,680
And just remember when enjoying the beauty of nature, whether backpacking, camping,

1468
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:36,439
or simply taking a walk. Always remember to leave no trace.

1469
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,399
Thanks and we will see you all next time.