Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
us as we dive into the deep end of the
unexplainable world and try to piece together what happened. And
you are listening to Locations Unknown. What's up, everybody, and
welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I'm your
co host, and with me, as always is a guy
who never gets information about bears wrong. Mike vander Bogart.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and he's our co host, Joe Rotto. He
had a little what did I say? You just forgot
your name?
Speaker 1: What did I say? She said, I'm the co host,
and you know I was reading at the same time
that I was talking. I screwed it up.
Speaker 2: But no. Thank you once again to all of our
loyal listeners for tuning in. Just a couple of quick
announcements here we I'd like to get to our Patreon supporters.
Speaker 1: Well, and we have to introduce our special guest. Andy's coming.
Oh yeah, studio Andy is back. Yeah. I should have
We should have probably went over all this beforehand.
Speaker 2: But in the earlier days we probably would have just
stopped and re recorded that.
Speaker 1: But not anymore. We'll just keep going roll to punches.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is our third episode on Gwen Hasselquist. So
Andy is back in the studio.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having Yeah, absolutely, so just whiskey comes out
when you come back, so it's a fun time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Just a quick shout out to our new Patreon supporters
Samantha Porter, Christopher Styles, Angel Sorio, Indy Lindsey. And this
was pretty funny as we were typing these into our
show notes, Heather Johnson just supported the page. So thank
you Heather for you're like a part of the show.
Speaker 1: Like we were prepping for the show, Mike's phone lit
up and goes, oh, we just got a patron supporter.
I'm like ad her to the list quick.
Speaker 2: Thank you, And, like we say every episode, if you
want to call our phone number and leave a really
funny voicemail or a mean voicemail or a review for us,
just call two eight three nine one six nine three.
Speaker 1: Yep. Sure, write it on toilet walls and bathrooms everywhere everywhere.
Call it. So this one's gonna be a little bit
different because what we're gonna be doing is playing an
interview that Mike and I already did about a week
and a half ago. We interviewed Gwen Hasselquest's best friend.
So we're gonna be playing you that interview. We needed
some time to cut out some of the things after
we recorded it that you felt was either irrelevant or
she didn't want aired. So we're gonna play that interview,
and what we'll do is either come in and comment
or just listen through certain parts. So we'll jump right
into that, right and Mike and I did the interview
for Andy. This is the first time he's hearing this,
so he's pretty excited to find out what was going on.
All Right, here we go to start. Could you just
give us your name and your connection to Gwen.
Speaker 3: Okay, so my name is John and Gwen and I
met in high school and we were friends for thirty years.
So we met when we were fifteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, And was that high school in the gig Harbor area.
Speaker 3: No, Actually, we both went to high school in Ohio
in a rail small town in Ohio called Conyat and
we were both brand new students our sophomore year and
happened to sit next to each other and just became
fast friends really quickly.
Speaker 2: Throughout the years. How often would you say you would
meet up like in person or at least talk to
her if you a phone or emailed right.
Speaker 3: We after high school kind of went in separate directions.
She moved out to Texas and was originally planning on
going to nursing school out there. I stayed in Ohio
and went to college there. So we sort of, you know,
through the years, kind of lost track of each other
and found each other again. And but we would talk
to each other, you know, on holidays and if I
would go. I had moved to California once I graduated
from college. I moved to California, and when I would
come back to visit my family, I would always go
up to Cleveland because her family lived in Cleveland and
that's kind of where she was based after she moved
back from Texas, and so I would go and visit
her in Cleveland when I when I came home to
visit my family, she came to Virginia because then I
moved to Virginia. She came to Virginia to see me
a couple of times. But once like social media sort
of took off and we were able to keep in touch,
like through Facebook and you know, we text each other,
it got a lot easier and I would say at
least probably, you know, communicate in some way at least
once a month. The last time I saw her was
in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how much did you know about Eric? And
when she got married to him? Were you close en?
Did you go to the wedding? How did that all work?
Speaker 3: I did not go to the wedding. She lived with
her parents for a little bit. Then she moved out
from living with her parents and she moved into an apartment.
I think she lived on the top floor and he
lived on the bottom. Like they was like a two
level apartment and she lived on top. And that's how
they met each other. They were neighbors. I remember when
she met him and she said, I met this guy
and I really really like him then kind of I
don't know how long it was after that that. Then
they ended up getting married, but I don't think anybody
was at their wedding. I think they went to Vegas
and got married, just the two.
Speaker 2: Of them, gotcha. Okay, what year were they married in?
I don't remember if we knew that or not.
Speaker 3: I do not know, actually, like fourteen or fifteen years ago, okay,
Because their oldest son is twelve or thirteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I believe based on messages in that group,
the find Gwen group that their kids are actually in
Wisconsin somewhere with family.
Speaker 3: They are. Yeah, they're in Wisconsin with his family.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, So what we did hear from some people,
and I'm going to paraphrase just because I don't want
to again give away information as asked not to that,
I'll just say there were some issues in the relationship
throughout the marriage that seemed to continue to get worse
as that was happening. Is this something that gwenever reached
out to to talk about or things that you knew
that were going on that were something that would rob
you the wrong way or make you think something was
going on with their relationship.
Speaker 3: No, to be perfectly honest, I did not know anything
about anything that was happening, you know, in a negative
way between them. She never ever let on one time
to me. Like I said, we met in twenty sixteen.
We have a mutual friend that lives in Seattle, and
so I went out to visit and she came from
the Tacoma area up to Seattle to visit, and I
hadn't i'd met eric A couple of times, like maybe
twice before that in Cleveland, and he seems perfectly fun
and really nice and you know, friendly. And when I
went out there in twenty sixteen and we met there,
he was like a totally different person. He had joined
the military and was I think playing in the military band,
like in the army band. He looked totally different, like
he's a thin, small kind of framed guy anyway, but
he was like obsessively running and so he said literally
all he could talk about was running, about his fitness,
about how he his nutrition, and how fast he could
run and how many miles he could run. And he
actually even left the group we were all staying together,
and he left her there with her kids and went
running because he's like, I have to get my seventeen
miles in today. And it was just like a really weird.
That was the first time of like what is with him?
Like he's really weird. And my other friend that we
were visiting, as you to stay left, we both were like,
what was that?
Speaker 1: Okay, So it was odd enough that like you both
noticed it, there's something odd. It wasn't just oh, I
work out in the mornings, I'm going to go for
a run. No, was it like trying to impress you
or was it just like he was so deep into
it like he needed to do it.
Speaker 3: Yes, like he was obsessed with it, Like he was
completely obsessed with it. And she seemed a little bit
off too, like sort of sad and sort of like
she had had some medical issues. I know, you guys
talked about the she had an autoimmune problem with that
like affected her lungs, and so she was like, I mean,
I think you know, she was We were happy to
all be together, but I think she was like feeling
a little bit. She wasn't feeling great, and he was
being super weird. But it was like enough that when
they left, my friend and I were like, what just
happened here? Like he's totally different.
Speaker 1: When was that, roughly compared to when she initially was missing?
Was that a couple of years before then.
Speaker 3: Twenty sixteen I went to visit and then after that,
like we still kept in touch after that, you know,
And she had had like some kind of long problem
that she had to have some kind of medical procedure
maybe a year after that, and I remember her parents
came out to take care of the kids because he
was traveling or something and she needs help taking care
of the kids.
Speaker 2: Let's go a year out before she went missing and
ultimately was found passed away. Were there did you have
any communications with her in that period that like final
year that started to make you worry.
Speaker 3: Or so that's why I was going to say fast forward,
like another I don't know, another year, maybe November of
twenty nineteen. Out of blue in November, like I get
a phone call from her and she's like, hey, I
need to talk to you, Okay, what's going on? And
she says, well, Eric's drinking again and so and he's suicidal.
She's like, Donnie has a gun and he's running around
outside and every time I try to call the police,
he says he's going to kill himself. And I was like, wait, whoa,
whoa hold on? What does that mean? Drinking again? Like
what you know?
Speaker 1: So this is the this is the first time that
you're like aware that he had any issues at all.
Speaker 3: I had no idea. He has never one time mentioned it.
I had no idea. So this was like a wait what.
So she had been trying like to get him help,
and every time she reachs out to you know, try
to call somebody to help her. They would say nine
one one, And anytime he said, you know that he
thought that they were going to come to the house,
he would take his son and go outside and tell
her that you're doing this to me, I'm going to
kill myself. And so there were weapons in their house,
like loaded weapons in their house all the time. And
by this time they had moved. So I don't know
where they lived before, but I specifically remember that they
moved to a place. She sent me pictures of it.
This when when she purchased this hat when they purchased
this house, and it was like it's out in the
middle of like in the middle of the woods and
in order, it's completely surrounded by trees. You can't really
see their neighbors. And I was like, wow, it's like
very secluded. And she's like, yeah, you know, I mean
it is a little kind of far away from people.
But you know, Eric kind of likes it that way.
And it's like, Okay, that seems creepy, but okay, wouldn't
be for me. But that's you know, And she was excited.
She was like going to grow a garden, and she
was like super excited about that. So she was like
half or at least portraying it as you know, happy.
But so when I got this phone call it in November,
I was like, what in the.
Speaker 1: World did she explain, like what it might have been
from or she just kind of blindsided with you with
this whole thing that you didn't know anything about.
Speaker 3: No, she just said, well, she said, he's been an
alcoholic for years. This has been going on for a
really long time. You know. She's like, I just never
told anybody, and I've been, you know, trying really hard
to hide it or keep it, you know, just in
our family. So she's like, nobody really knows what's happening.
She said, he won't he won't let me talk to
my family. He won't let me talk to his family.
I can't reach out and talk to people about it.
I just got really scared for her, and I was like,
you know, what do you need? What what do you
need me to do? She just said, I just need
somebody to talk to.
Speaker 1: Okay. So she's like at her wits end. Yeah, Okay,
I've tried everything. I can't do this alone anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This definitely lines up with several other people we've talked
to about him, and I believe he was even discharged
from the Milllitary over skinking issues.
Speaker 3: Domestic violence kind of issues, Like I think there were
a couple of times that he was physically abusive to her,
but also like emotionally all the time. Yeah, and something
about running. She said he stopped drinking for a while,
but then he started like obsessively exercising. So when we
saw him in that one time and he was like
I Polly could talk about, is that was like his
replacement behavior? She must there was some And she told
me that he left the military because he didn't like it.
And I was like, all right, I don't know anything
about the military. Okay, I guess to do that.
Speaker 1: I don't think they let you do that, but yeah,
I agree with you. It sounds like he replaced one
addiction with another, So maybe he has that addictive personality.
And we tried getting police records from November December time
frame prior to her disappearance about specifically domestic abuse issues
at the home, and we were at least still unable
to get that through Floyer requests. So that's definitely corroborated
from other people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I did not know anything that was
happening until that moment. But I'm telling you that I
hung up the phone. When I got off the phone,
I said to my husband, this is going to be bad.
I really am super scared for her. I just in
my mind I picture. I just had this vision of
it being like a murder suicide. He's just going to
kill her and he's going to kill his family. And
I go, we're going to see this on the news.
This is going to be terrible. And my husband's like,
I mean, you're kind of overreacting though you think it's like,
I don't know. I just feel really very uncomfortable with this.
This makes me very nervous. And I because she would
not ever reach out to me to share that stuff
with me unless she just felt like she couldn't handle
it anymore. I know it had to have been really bad.
So I like made it my mission to just I
was going to connect with her like almost as many times,
like every day, I want to hear from you, because
if I don't hear from me, I'm going to assume
that something bad has happened and that you know, and
then I'm going to start calling people and it's going
to get weird for you because people are going to
start showing up at your house. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's I mean, that's being a good friend.
I think most people would maybe go, Okay, it's not
a big deal, it's none of my business. But so
when so you started contacting her regularly, what were those
calls like leading up to the incident.
Speaker 3: The funny part about that was every time she would
call me was like in the car picking up her kids, okay,
and then she'd be like, I got to go so
she was getting home or he was like in the room,
so she didn't talk in front of him or anywhere
near him, or as soon as the kids got in
the car, she got off the phone with me. But
I texted her like all through the holidays, and she
kind of made it sound like things were getting better.
She was like, you know, it's been better. It's okay.
Because I was thinking to myself like, oh gosh, Thanksgiving weekend,
they're going to be home the whole weekend. That could
be really bad, you know, And she was like, no,
it seems better, and I was like okay. So time
kind of went on and she first said things were
getting better, so I'm kind of like, okay, is.
Speaker 1: She at that state where she would have been honest
with you if they weren't.
Speaker 3: I don't know if she felt like it was getting better,
because I didn't sort of like hear that ner that
Like I didn't hear that like panic in her voice,
okay anymore, you know, so she sort of made it
sound like things were going better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you want to speculate, you can just say, hey,
I'm speculating here, but this is what I think based
on because it's I'm sure you could tell if you
knew her that long, you could probably tell, like a
crack in the voice or the way she's talking if
she's not being truthful.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I just I mean, yeah, I felt like she
was doing better because I kind of could feel myself
like relaxing a little bit. Okay, maybe I just overreacted.
Maybe this isn't you know, like maybe it was okay,
but I still felt like I needed to talk to her.
So for birthdays the first week in March, I always
text her on her birthday or call her. Every single
year for thirty years, I sent her a message and
I said, I hope you have a really you know,
happy people year, you know, just sending me some birthday love,
and she said, I've had a great day and I
think this is going to be my best year yet. Okay,
And I like when I think about that now, like
I just like she really felt okay about how things
were going, and she was like feeling really positive. You know,
she had just kind of reconnected. I know, you guys
talked about rekindling a family connection, and she had just
reconnected with her stepsister, Dora. They had been kind of
estranged for a long time, and she was super excited
about seeing Dora, and they had visited and were making
plans to do things, and she was very excited, like
she was, you know, she seemed really really happy.
Speaker 1: This is the March twenty twenty. Yeah, okay, this is.
Speaker 3: Like the March fifth is her birthday. So that was
like I talked to her and then March I hadn't
heard from her in a little bit, and it was
March nineteenth. Actually I texted her at night because I
was like, gosh, I haven't heard from her in a
little while. And I just then and COVID stuff was
happening all of a sudden. Yeah, and I'm a teacher,
so pool got shut down and we were just all
sitting here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like fresh into lockdown because my birthday
is March. My birthday is March nineteenth, and I remember
I had planned, I had plans, and then we're like
everything got shut down. Everyone was very nervous. Yeah, I
didn't know what was happening.
Speaker 3: So I sent her a message just so I was
thinking about her, and there was like a lot of
craziness happening, and so I sent her a message and
I said, hey, everything okay, I haven't heard from you
in a little while. And then I didn't hear back
from her. I never heard so then like this, you know,
the sequent went by and I'm kind of like, well,
maybe I'll give her like a day or two more,
you know what's going on. And I didn't hear a
single thing until I got a phone call from Eric
on March twenty fourth.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did that go.
Speaker 3: It's the middle of the day, right, my phone ring,
and it's when she's calling from her phone and I
get a text message that says, hey, Dawn, this is Eric.
I just wanted you to know that the kids and
I are okay, and we don't anything, but Gwen's gone
and we're missing her so much, and I was like,
what you got me?
Speaker 1: You didn't see any of the social media posts or
anything prior to that.
Speaker 3: No, okay, no.
Speaker 2: With him break the news to one of her oldest
best friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not friends with him. I had no idea
what was happening. I had no and not see one
single thing. I had no idea what was going on,
And like, what what does that mean? And then he
and then he puts his cell phone number, you can
call me if you want.
Speaker 1: What. Yeah, that's that's really strange. It's like he's almost
trying to get attention from you because like he knew
you were close with her.
Speaker 3: I think he was looking through her phone and realized like, oh,
oh gosh, she's been talking to Don all this time.
John knows all of this stuff that has gone on.
I'm really honestly in my I am speculating, but in
my honest opinion, I think he realized, like, oh boy,
I better get in touch with her because she is
gonna she's going to want to know what's going on. Yeah,
and she knows a whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1: Do you think it was like an intimidation tactic? Almost?
Speaker 3: No. I wouldn't say that. I think I don't think
I would really say that. I think he was trying
to cover his bases, like he's trying to reach out
to all the people that he knew that new stuff.
You know, I got to hurry up and make sure
that everybody knows I'm this good guy, this caring, loving husband,
and I'm so sad and you know that. So it
took me a long time to style the number. I
called my other friends who lives in Seattle first, and
I was like, what do I do? And she's like, before,
you're gonna have to call. I don't want to call him.
I don't even know what this means. And so I
finally get up the courage to call, and he was like,
immediately as soon as I as soon as he could
hear my voice started just fake crying. And I know
for sure that he was not really crying. It was
like the fakest sounding I've ever heard. And he was like,
she did it. She just jumped off the bridge. She
just did it. And I was like, what are you
talking about? And he's like, she was mad at me
because of COVID, because she had COVID and she just
did it. And I was like, I don't even know
what to say. I cannot even believe this is true.
This is not There's no way. He asked me to
FaceTime his kids, who I'd only met one time before,
so I was like, I mean, okay, that seems like
a weird request. But I was just like, okay, sure, whatever,
I go. Are you hung by yourself? And he said yeah,
I'm here by myself. And in the middle of this crying,
I said why, you need to get in touch with
your family and have your family and he immediately stops,
his voice totally changes and he said, oh, I don't
know if I can say this, but he said, my
family are a whole I'm not talking to them, and
then he went back to just completely crying again, like
Fay crying. And I was like, Eric, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: Sounds like I'm not a psychiatrist, but based on all
of the comments we've heard from other people and the
things he was posting on social media, kind of sounds
like a sociopath.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2: The way that he can just turn emotion on and off,
and just the lack of any kind of you know.
Speaker 1: Like extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like a lack of like if your wife
had just jumped off a bridge when you're talking to
law enforcement, you would be shattered and he like in
the police report, just like a stone cold, like no emotion,
which is bizarre. Normal people would be crying and well.
Speaker 1: I think even normal. Not not that you're not important
in her life, but I'd feel like if it happened
to my wife, I wouldn't be going down her list
of close friends first right within a couple of days. Well,
just in general, you're gonna you're gonna be You're gonna
your own family, You're gonna be wrong. And like her,
I would expect her friends would probably show up, but
I wouldn't be going out of my way to reach
out to those people as the only people I contacted. So,
did you, like when you heard this, did you immediately
think that it was something with him? Or just give
us yes, I don't want to lead you. I don't
want to lead you. Tell us how you felt when
you got that call.
Speaker 3: I hung up the phone. I was like, I knew it.
I told my husband. I was like, I told you
something was going to happen. I knew it, and I
have never called the police in my entire life. I
didn't even know how to call the police. I got
on the phone and I spent the rest of the
afternoon trying to call the Gig Harbor Police department, and
then I couldn't get anywhere because it wasn't Gig Harbor.
It was supposed it was like the Sheriff's department for
Pierce County. So I mean, I spent all this time
trying to get through to somebody, and I finally get
like a lady and she's like, ma'am, are you trying
to tell me that somebody murdered somebody? I was like,
I don't know what. I'm trying to tell you. Something
that happened here. This is somebody needs to go and
check this out. That was my immediate gut feeling. And
I am not a person who would call the police ever.
And I immediately said, there's something this is not good.
This is like something bad happen here, Like she did
not do this, There's no way she did this, and
this is I had not seen the video. I had
not I didn't know anything about the the ring video.
I didn't know anything about anything. This is based on
her phone calls to me and his phone call to me,
that is it. And I was like, this is wrong.
There's something wrong here. I happened to ask him because
I knew she had been talking to her sister, and
I just said to Eric, you know, I just need
to understand really what's happening right now, Like you know,
it's hard to understand what you're saying, and I just
don't really get what's going on. So is it okay
if I get in touch with her sister, could you
give me Dora's phone number? And he was like, yeah, absolutely,
hang up the phone. He texted me Dora's number. It
took me a while to kind of get up the
courage because I had literally met Dora like one time
when I was fifteen, thirty years ago, and I was like,
what are the chances that she's even gonna remember me,
But I'm going to try it anyway. And so I
reached out to Dora, like, hey, you might not want
to talk to me, and I totally understand, but I
just been trying to understand what's going on. And she
is so kind and called me back and we started
talking and just in like probably fifteen minutes of me
talking to her, I just said, Dora, I'm so sorry
to ask me this, and I don't mean to offend you,
but do you think that Eric has something to do
with this? And she was like yes, I mean immediately,
oh my gosh, yes, And then we just started like
oh little boo talking about everything because we had so
many like so many pieces just don't fit together, so
many things don't make sense. Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the him getting remarried a couple months after his
wife of fifteen years away die is we both thought
originally were like, that's insane. I've never heard of that
unless somebody killed their wife and had obviously had been
dating her before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you called Dora, you're talking to her, you
both come to the same conclusion that you feel like
he's responsible. From that point on, when did you start
finding out about all the weird after effect things that
were going on. Did you start following him on social
media and seeing those posts and things like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit of that. Dora was there for
a lot of it. She because he reached out to
her kind of for sort of support, and Dora was
like trying to help out and be there with the kids,
and you know, she kind of was like, I mean,
I feel like this is really he's really strange and
there's really strange things happening, and I just don't relieve
the kids, you know, with him the way that he's behaving.
And she knows a lot about the stuff that happened.
But literally he got married, I mean some other girl
that he was supposed to be bringing to the United States,
some other girl like from some I think it was
like from a Spanish country of some sort, and then
like at the last minute, all of a sudden, he
sent Dora a message and said, hey, I met someone,
and she's like okay, and he's like, yeah, I think
we went on a date. And she's like okay, I
mean this is you know, It's like yes, but it's
been like a month and you're okay. And then she's
like I can remember to her call him. He was like,
he is married. Wait what? And honestly, what I think
is that he needed he could he can't function by
himself like Gwen. Gwen kept the crazy under control, like
she held in the crazy, so no one kind of
knew what kind of person he really was, and he
needed somebody to help manage his crazy and so unfortunately
this poor I honestly do I don't know this woman
that he married, but I honestly do think she just
I think she wanted to come to the United States.
I think she thought I'm going to marry this nice
American guy. I don't think she realized that he was,
you know, an alcoholic and a psychopath. And she they
went back to Kenya because not too long after they
got married, her father passed away, and they went back
to Kenya, and when she tried to return to the
United States, she was detained and was not allowed to
come back into the United States because of some sort
of according to them, it was like paper work that
and she's not allowed back in the United States for
another eighteen months and I don't know how long it's spent.
But that's when he started writing all those posts about
how you know s the USA and you know, I'm
getting out of this country or whatever. And honestly, he
literally left his children, He signed over the he signed
over his parental rights and left his children and went
to Kenya. That's crazy to be with his Yeah, he's crazy,
is what You're right. He's crazy.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: And even the detective in the police report that we got,
and I think you've probably seen that by now too,
because Dora had it. Y. Yeah, he even mentions that
things don't add up, like I don't have enough evidence
to really convict him of something. And I'm here thinking
there's people in jail that have been convicted on less evidence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just let somebody tell the story and then just
be like, so what do you think here? Yeah? The
hard part is everybody sees it. But at the moment,
like in the moment when all this was happening, like
the world was shut down. And the thing I remember
about the detective, he's super nice, Like when I talked
to him on the phony, was really really nice. But
he kept saying to us so farry and like really
really bogged down. There's so much stuff to do, were
so many cases, and he just made it sound like
he just this is just more than he could kind
of handle, you know, at the moment. And I get it,
I do understand, but I mean we emailed him. That's
poor guy. Probably was like I need to change my
email address because these women keep out of the peace.
We emailed him, We called him and left messages and
he didn't. He never responded ever, So we got one
email that was like, hey, we're working on it, and
then in August we got a final I'm really sorry
for your loss, but it looks like it's a suicide
case closed and that was the end of it. And
that was like so heartbreaking because we all just knew
that that's not really what was happening.
Speaker 1: My speculation at that time, I think you touched on
a little bit, was this happened right at the height
of COVID, and we got to try and put ourselves
back in that mindset where nobody knew what was going on.
It Still, it took us over a year to really
get a grasp of how intense it was and what
was really happening. But in that beginning, there was a
lot of panic, a lot of confusion, and I feel
like in normal peace time this would have probably been
looked at a little bit closer than it was. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Mean we tried it, feel like, yeah, yeah, I tried
getting the video surveillance footage from the Tacoma's Tacoma narrow
Bridge and I was told that they the video gets
deleted after a certain amount of time, which whatever that's fine,
but why didn't the detective pull this video? I mean,
the van potentially had Like even though that like homeless
guy or who the drug addict or however was on
the bridge that saw the van saw potentially another person
in the van, Like we were like, what is the
incentive for that guy to make that up?
Speaker 1: Well, and that's kind of kind of what stinks is
every little bit of lead that would be kind of
like the lynchpin in the entire case, is always hinged
on something that's not entirely trustworthy. So you have this
individual who is inebriated, homeless, says he may have seen
two people in the van, but then he makes some
other stuff up. So you almost have to kind of
get in the mind to somebody who may be on
drugs or inebriated. But that always stuck with me because
I feel like when people lied to manipulate, they're going
to lie and manipulate in ways that will help them
more so than other people. And I felt the detail
of how many people were in the van is an
innocuous detail that you don't really need to lie about,
so why would.
Speaker 3: You It Just it felt to me like they picked
out and I'm not blaming them necessarily, but it just
felt like they picked out all the stuff that makes
that that made it easy. I'll believe you when you
say I saw her, but I don't believe you when
you say there was another person there, like I mean,
and I mean honestly, before I even knew that, I
never saw the fleet. Before, before we even knew that,
I had said to Dora or when we were talking
about it, I said, that guy's a runner. Right how
far away into the bridge. Dora even drove the road
from her house to the bridge, okay, because we were
talking about like how far away is that? Is that
far enough that you could walk back to the And
I was like, well, you know, if it's far enough,
he could run. I know how long. We even looked
to see because he was bragging about how fast his
miles were, and I said, well, I mean, I think
he could probably make it back, and like, you know,
not see who long he According to him, he runs
like a six minute mile. He could probably make it
back pretty fast. And I mean, if you're adrenaline pumping,
you'll probably get back there pretty quick.
Speaker 1: Right, So if so he told you he did what
seventeen miles when he's running. Do you feel like he
was exaggerating or is that something where you believe where
he can actually do those types of distances at those speeds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he really is a long distance runner,
and I think he really does run. I think he
really does that.
Speaker 1: So did you and Dora, like you said she drove
the route, did you have Yeah, did you like kind
of think about it and speculate what it would have
taken him to run back, like in time or his ability?
Speaker 2: There's only five miles away, I.
Speaker 1: Believe, Yeah, Well I don't know as flies, but you'd
like I remember looking at the map and the road
kind of looped around to get to the bridge.
Speaker 3: Well, Dora has a video of her driving from Gwen's
house to the to the bridge. She has a video.
I mean it's not it's not like an easy, quick,
little but I mean, if you're an experienced runner, like
you could run. I can't even understand. This is the
other thing. Okay, when wore glasses, she was blinded about
that her glasses. How did she drive? You saw the
video of what she looked like when she was leaving
her house. How in the world is she going to
get down this windy, dark, tree lined road. How is
she getting from her house to this bridge? How is
that happening? Like? How would you even She couldn't even
put her key in her door? Like how do you
even know, Oh, I'm now going to drive to this
bridge that's fifteen minutes away or whatever it is, Like
she couldn't even do put a key.
Speaker 1: In the speculation at least, what Eric's story was was
she couldn't put the key in the door because she
was inebriated, potentially on pills. Do you feel like was
her vision really bad enough? Or that could have been
a vision thing?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I could have been a mix
of both. I know when I was listening and when
I listened to the podcast again and they were saying, like,
you know she had or we were talking about the
ostocy or the toxicology and we were talking about how
you know she had that drug in her system. Yeah,
but we don't really ever know how many how many
pills were in this bottle in the first place, Like,
I mean, I don't know how much was in the bottle.
I don't know how much was in her system. And
remember she is only like one hundred pounds she's like
a teeny little person.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and someone else that we talked to also
mentioned that, Okay, if she had taken a whole bottle
of that medication again, she wouldn't have been able to
drive all the way to the bridge without not crash
total in her car.
Speaker 1: Right right.
Speaker 3: I've made a connection with the neighbor that lives down
the street from them, and she's like, it's hard to
drive that street in the daylight, you know, when I
have all my functions. She's like, there's no way you
could drive down that street. And there's just like, I
don't know. It's just so frustrating.
Speaker 2: But it got me thinking to no, obviously, we would
love We're going to keep trying to get a hold
of that detective because I think it'd be great to
talk to him about this case. But if it's still
it's still I can't understand why that footage of the
bridge wasn't pulled unless as a police department, like you
were saying, the guy's overworked. They want to just get
click cases closed. One way to make sure this doesn't
turn into a murder investigation is pulling evidence that would
show that it was murdered. They know the footage gets
deleted after so many days, and maybe they're just like,
you know what, I bet he did murder her. But
you know what, if we don't have this video footage,
we can't bring him up on charges.
Speaker 3: Right exactly beneath that, okay? And also, can I just say,
can I just speculate again, just sure from talking to
people that Gwen was stashing money around in different places,
like different banks around the area. And I believe that
that is the BECA because she was planning on leaving.
I don't know that for sure that it is pure
speculation on my part, but she was putting money in
places because she was planning on being able to, like
I need to have money to survive, like when I
get out of here.
Speaker 1: And did you hear that from her or from a
source that you would deem credible.
Speaker 3: Yes, I did not hear that from her, Okay, I
heard it from I got it from somebody. And then so,
I mean, it's expensive to get divorced. It's hard, you know,
That's what It's going to cost you a lot of
money and you're going to have to pay you know,
you'll have to pay it to support your kids.
Speaker 1: Outside of that, what you said before about he would
march around outside with a gun, threatening her if she
called the police. So it sounded like he had a
control issue, and I'm almost wondering if she if again
we're going to go down the speculation path of I'm
going to trust the information that you heard, because what
we've been hearing from people that were close to her
has pretty much turned out to be accurate. So let's
assume she's storing money around town and planning to divorce.
I almost wonder if it's possible she broke the news
to him that night and he freaked out.
Speaker 3: It could definitely be the case. That could definitely be
the case. She reached out to me for help for
him when he was suicidal. I mean, so there's there's
just no way in my mind that she would like
she would not leave her kid with him. There is
no way she would do that. There is no way
she would not do that. She's a super smart person.
She knows about drugs, she was in nursing, she knows
about drugs and how drugs were Just no way that
she would do that to herself.
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, that's the impression we've been getting from everyone
that's known her. Is there's no way she would commit
suicide over something like COVID or anything, especially because she
wouldn't want to leave her kids.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think outside of let's even if
he wasn't had all these episodes, I still think I'm
not a mother. My wife is. But a thing changes
when you have children, and especially if you feel like
there's a thread at home. I can't imagine her leaving that.
And that's where I think the biggest because I always
try and play devil's advocate. I always try and really
step outside of my emotional prediction of what's happening. And
I think the thing that threw me off the worst
was and you said you listened to the podcast, the
part where when the detective called him to basically tell
him that they found the van, and when he said, no,
the van's here, she's here, everything's fine, and then all
of a sudden it changed. I think that was like
the biggest red flag ever. Is he maybe lost control,
did something and in the heat of the moment, is
trying to cover it up, but is not thinking clearly
yet and is saying things that are very damning that
seem very damning to us. I think I made the
comment that I'm basing it off of just watching detective shows,
so that's not really a good a good indicator, but
I I kept throwing it back because I like to
give people to benefit of the doubt, and I keep
throwing it back to that is obvious, but maybe not
if you're a police department dealing with the initial weeks
of COVID. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think our goal of talking
with you, and we've got we're trying to get more
interviews scheduled in the coming week, is eventually to get
this case reopened. I think if enough pressure is brought
onto the police department, the local government, that maybe some
of the local news organizations start picking up this case.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: One of our recent episodes, the podcast called Luminal, got
wind of this case and they're going to start talking
about it on their podcast, and they're reaching out to
other podcasters they know to try to and I told them,
I said, spread spread the story far and wide, because
the ultimate goal is to get the case reopen.
Speaker 3: Agreed, Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: I remember when we first started looking into it, we
started speculating a little nervous about saying that because you
don't want to just randomly accuse. But I haven't talk
to a single person yet who hasn't made it seem
more and more clear that it's that it just keeps
getting worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, Amanda, I think she probably reached
out to too. Was a friend of Gwen's in high school,
and she sent your podcast actually to a couple of
different reporters out one in Seattle area and one in
the Tacoma area. I think, so we've been just like
listening because we're just like, I mean, we're you guys
did the work like they don't. You don't even have
to do anything, just listen. Just all you have to
do is listen to it. She even put it at
the bottom for you and one guy. One guy said oh, sorry,
I can't. I can't listen to three hours worth of
stuff and was like, I mean, but you should. You
should listen to it because you would not be able
to shut it off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of those stories that you see
on like Dateline, NBC or the First forty eight, or
there's been murder cases that have had convictions with less evidence.
I feel like I know but I truly do.
Speaker 3: Our family it's so sick of hearing this, and they're
so thankful that I'm talking to someone else about it
because Okay, got it, Yeah, we got it.
Speaker 1: And that can be kind of maddening too. If it's
if you feel like there's something there and you feel
like nothing's being done about it, I can only imagine,
and it's different, but we do all these cases. If
you listen to their show, it's when family members go
missing and people feel helpless, And that's kind of what
we're getting when we talk to people, is this feeling
of helplessness that they feel like there's something there but
nothing's being done about it. So we need to make
enough noise that at least it gets looked into at
an official level. And I think this is going to
do that. And I really hope that this will will
kick off a lot of times when people are nervous,
they need to see someone else step up and do it.
And I really think that you doing this with us
will be that tipping point, hopefully to have more people
feel more comfortable reaching out and telling us their story
and from their mouth, because I as much as I'll
repeat what they say, I think it is more impactful
and more powerful coming from the person who experienced it.
Speaker 3: Well, I hope you know I said the right thing.
I was like, I just I just have been waiting
to tell the story to somebody who you know, it's
not my family and friends that kind of can't do
anything to help. And I don't know which one of
you said it, but one of you says, I really
believe that he had something to do with it. But
I will gladly listen if you can prove to me
that he didn't.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, we.
Speaker 1: Would even have him on the show. Yeah, I said
that in the podcast. If he calls in wants to
talk to me, I'm going to grill him. If when
he hears this, I will grill him and I will
tell him, hey, I think you did this. You need
to convince me you didn't, and you need to do
a damn good job because all the arrows point in
the direction of you did it.
Speaker 3: And and that's exactly right. If you can prove to
me that you didn't and this was, you know, a legitimate,
you know, suicide, I'll send him. I'll send him a
bouquet and say I'm sorry, but I cannot there's no,
there's It would take a lot for me to change
my mind. It would take a lot.
Speaker 2: It's just we got to get you just got to
keep getting the word out there, get spreading the case message.
And it's starting to happen now there's other podcasts that
are talking about it, and I think it's I think
this year, it's probably later in the year, it's really
going to the ball will start rolling, especially after our
third episode. With all these interviews, we'll probably have to
release some multi parts because it really wouldn't do it
justice to obviously, will cut out the pieces that you
don't want said. But I think your interview and I'm
hopefully I'm talking to Dora tomorrow afternoon.
Speaker 3: He will have so much stuff to tell you. She
has so because she was literally right there when the
police came and and told him what happened, like he
was right there, So she knows all that stuff. She
knows everything. Okay, she is like a great person to
talk to you. I appreciate you guys so much. I
can't even tell you. It's like, let's my heart rests
a little because this has been super hard and so
I appreciate you doing this.
Speaker 1: So don think thank you very much for taking the time.
Speaker 3: I'm thank you.
Speaker 1: We appreciate you for doing this, and let's hope we
can blow this thing up and move that needle forward.
So that was our full interview with Dawn and if
for those watching, and we do encourage people just listening.
We've been kind of flipping through Instagram posts, Google searches.
The video they mentioned about Dora driving from their home
to the bridge is still playing. Yeah, and this is
one of the key things I want to discuss right
away because I'm just thinking about it. So the theory right, go.
Speaker 2: Ahead, Oh no, so we're watching this video, it's what
are we ten minutes in?
Speaker 1: Now? It's yeah, it's gotta be.
Speaker 2: And the original theory we have the ring doorbell video
was that she was ineberated on pills and which is
why she had a hard time getting your keys in
the door, which then brought up the question of how
was she able to drive her car to the bridge
without totaling it or crashing it.
Speaker 1: And what we heard in that interview now Don said
she's basically blind as a bat with out her glasses,
which she didn't have. So if let's assume both things
are true, let's assume she took too many pills and
didn't have her glasses. As we're watching this video, it's
still going heavily forested, ye turns, lots of turns, construction.
Speaker 2: No street lights on most of a lot of the roads.
So you got to assume it's dark because it was
at night, middle of the night. It would just be
a miracle if you could make this drive without glasses,
if you're basically legally blind without them. And aneberated on
what kind of pills were those again and show are
they like sleeping pills or.
Speaker 4: No benzo diazepines, so like a xanax type pill for depression.
Speaker 1: Once again, the go right into the mic. Okay, there
you go.
Speaker 4: The police report does not mention the toxicology came back
is having these inner system, but we have no idea
how many were consumed, the amount of the benzo diazepines
in our system, and just watching this video, it is
difficult drive sober, and it's hard to believe that you
could do this inebriated or lacking vision.
Speaker 1: Now I agree, it's a mix of like deep forested roads,
it's a mix of highway the turns now. This was
a little bit after but the construction on that bridge
was probably still going on. That's speculation now because this
is obviously after the fact, but it's pretty close to
the incident when this is also happening. That this is
the film that Dora had filmed, so this is too
construction doesn't start and finish that quick, right, they seem
to be pretty much in it. And then Andy, you
host the question in the middle of when we were
watching this as it passed, it's like there's a bridge,
r Like, why if you're gonna go do something like that,
why go to that one?
Speaker 2: And my next question is if she took all those pills,
presumable basically to kill herself with pills, why would you
then go and drive somewhere to then jump off a bridge?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, who does I am?
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert in this area of like psychology
or anything, but I don't know that you hear about
people trying multiple forms of suicide in one attempt.
Speaker 1: It's possible that I don't see why part I'm with
you obviously.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just another thing that just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: What were you gonna say? Andy?
Speaker 4: I just wanted to back up a little bit. So
this is the first time that I've heard the interview,
and I think context is key to all this. So
we're watching this video right now, and it's obviously a
difficult drive, but I see that it's posted from May
twenty twenty, So we're looking at this and there's already
questions about like, how could she make this drive? Why
are we recording this video? Looking at what this drive entails?
And it really signifies what we've been talking about the
whole time, that not everything adds up in this case.
The story doesn't seem to make sense. And there's a
lot of questions out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I made the point of the
video from the bridge. Why wasn't that pulled by the detective?
And I honestly think that I don't think they were
on purpose doing that, but I think they probably did
it because they didn't want this to turn into a
full blown investigation. They you know, let's rule it a suicide,
clothes that be done with it. COVID's going on, could
be the Black plague, we don't know what this is.
Let's just close this case, get it over with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think they realized. I really don't
think they realized she jumped off the bridge right away,
if you think about it, because they weren't really looking
in the water at all. It was not until somebody
else called in the body at the port or where
they found it that it became that. But because they're
dealing with the word of that potentially homeless, inebriated gentleman
who said he might have saw one person who gave
him the van, there might have been two people in
the car, so they probably even know what they were
dealing with.
Speaker 2: That video would have been live and available to get
be pulled by lawnforce, and I think for sixty or
ninety days, so there's no excuse why thirty days later
they didn't.
Speaker 1: That is like your big crux just bucks me, because
it does. There would be no not wrong. I just
that that there would be no way for him to
get off that bridge. He would have he would be
caught on video, yeah, running running, Yeah, at.
Speaker 2: Two in the morning or whenever this was in the morning.
That is very damning evidence based on all of the
other statements that he made about how she left on
her own and this and that, like that would be
you're the lawyer here, but that would pre significant evidence.
If they had video of him running off the bridge.
Speaker 4: I think that would be yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think you have to be a lawyer
to know that one running away from the scene of
a crime. Yes, when you said you weren't there.
Speaker 4: And this is the some of the value from Down's interviews.
She was here during all this, right, she was an
active part of what's going on. And she said she
had communications with the detective. And we came to this
case years after the fact, and we're speculating. We all
know what it was like in the immediate aftermath of COVID,
but she had conversations with the detective and everything was
shut down. It was crazy. They were bogged down and
work and it just doesn't seem like something that's tied
up tied up very well from a police investigation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we speculated that in the other episodes of.
Speaker 2: Here's here'd be a camera going through a toll booth. Yeah,
like you would clearly see who'd be driving the car. Yeah, absolutely,
And if don if Gwen was really integrated, dollar to
Holy Cow or blind, you would see Eric driving the.
Speaker 1: Car or like her, not only your ability to get there,
pay the toll, not crash into the stuff, you know,
those tolls they narrow so you can't get around them,
and you don't.
Speaker 2: So riddle me this. They looked like a toll booth
was had an attendant, right.
Speaker 1: Well, go back. We have the power of reverse.
Speaker 2: So this is another thing. If I was a detective,
I would have done.
Speaker 1: Far enough. Here you go.
Speaker 2: So maybe it's like an Illinois there's booths.
Speaker 1: Now there's booths, so you've gotta maybe they're.
Speaker 3: Cook you know.
Speaker 1: Here we go. I can do this. Let's see if
she's talking talks to somebody. Yep, she's talking to a person.
So yeah, are these are these toll booths manned in
the early morning? I mute that so sorry.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So if there was a tollbooth operator working at the
time and this woman pulls up completely hammered out of
her mind, yeah, and can't see he can't see some pills,
don't you think they would have mentioned something or would
have called the police and been like, hey, this lady,
because they would probably just assume she's drunk, or more importantly, hey,
last night a van got appeared in something like did
you see this van who worked last night?
Speaker 1: Interview those individuals? Did you see this car come through
were there are two people in it? Was there one
person that they seem inebriated.
Speaker 2: They're probably trained, or at least told if you see
somebody that's drunk come through the toll booth, call the
police because they're going to scoop them up for drunk driving.
That seems pretty reasonable. Now, if someone else was driving
the van and Gwen was just in it, perfectly normal situation,
you wouldn't think anything else. So that would be another area.
If I was a detective, I would have gone and
asked who was on shift last night work in the
toll booth, did you see anything strange come through at
this time? That seems very basic detective work.
Speaker 4: And I think one thing to note here, and Joey
brought it up while we were playing the interview, is
that we had been operating under this assumption that she
took a bottle of pills and drove to the bridge.
Right we saw this video that came from I think
it was a Facebook post from Eric. But the only
thing we have confirming that is the police report, which
does not speak to the amount of the bids of
diazepines in her system. And now we know that she
wasn't able to see if she was leaving without her glasses,
she might have not been intoxicated at under pills at all. Right,
So we need to peel back these layers.
Speaker 1: And it's absolutely a possibility where one.
Speaker 4: That maybe her inability to fit the key in the
lock and kind of swaying is vision issues and not intoxication,
not some sort of a suicide attempt.
Speaker 1: Well, and if she got in a fight with her husband,
not only vision issues. She's upset, so you go outside,
if she's been crying, she can't see dous everglasses, she's
just in a whatever. And I think what's important is
it's it doesn't see in Everyone says this, And I'm
not going to give anything away because we do have
Dora's interview that we're gonna do next. So there's a
lot more information in that one that I'm trying to
not introduce just because it's not the right time. But
why would she pull the trigger on doing this to herself?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: What occurred? Because everything we've been hearing from her friend
is that things were getting better, things were looking up,
everything was getting better. She loved her kids, she would
never leave her kids. All those positive things that we're
hearing about happen right before this incident. Usually when people
do something like that, there's a slow decline or they've
been in a mental state for a long period of
time and they finally just do it. Everything points in
the direction that she was going the opposite direction in
a good way, and then all of a sudden, this happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Based on this interview and the other interviews we
have obviously done that we haven't released yet, and comments
and messages with people, I do not get the impression
at all that Gwen was in a suicidal state before
her death. That's that's based on close friends, family, her
social media posts, just everything about her does not lead
me to think that. And a lot of times on
our other episodes we say that and we don't really
We don't really know their personal life.
Speaker 1: We don't have this much insight in it.
Speaker 2: We have a lot of insight into Gwen's final few
years before her death, and I don't think she was
in a suicidal state. I think maybe I'm not gonna
say I think it's.
Speaker 1: Possible, but all the indicators point to highly unlikely. It's
possible where someone can do that, and it's odd. It
seems out of the blue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think Don mentioned too about
how Eric seemed to be able to turn emotions on
and off in a drop of a hat. We've got
all of these crazy events going on in the pastor
he's waving guns around saying that he's gonna kill himself. Yeah,
and I think you factor that in. I think you
factor in the video of her not being able to
get the key in the door. Then you look at
this video the drive to the bridge and the toll booth.
Speaker 1: I just it's a long drive. I don't think for
a long distance runner doable. I don't think she was
driving now that i'm it's it's gotten that very difficult.
Speaker 2: That's why it's so frustrating. We don't have any of
the video footage from the bridge, we don't have statements
from the toll booth operators. And Don made a great
point about how they believed that homeless guy about the
fact that Gwen was there, but then they don't care
about the fact he said there was also possibly someone
else in the car.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: How I mean, it's almost like they were trying to
not collect evidence.
Speaker 1: You're really on that, You're really on that they want
to close the case. Train.
Speaker 2: I mean, why else would you not do some of
this basic detective work.
Speaker 1: I see, that's I'm nicer than you on this one.
I'm not nice in other things. I think COVID fuck.
I think because again I try and put myself that
we are in because if I'm recalling properly, like Washington State,
it was like it was like the first few cases
were coming out of there, people were panicking. And this
is where I became less anxious about it as we
went on after they found out like, oh, if you're
healthy and young, still dangerous, but way better. In those
early days, it's like, okay, first month or two is oh,
it was like nobody knew what was going to happen. Yeah,
nobody knew how like it was at that point it
seemed like mortality rate was like fifty percent, like something crazy.
That's what it felt like. So you have these police
officers that they're people too. We're gonna go like, there's
a body floating their cars on the bridge. The only
way to we have as one guy that want the
husband's at home. It looks like a suicide. If you're
not digging into it like we did, and if you're
in the beginning of COVID. There's a lot bigger stuff
going They're probably getting calls all the time from people
freaking out. True, So if I'm going to give them
the benefit of the doubt, this looks clear cut if
you don't dig into it. She took pills, she looked
upset on a video left. The husband seems a little
quirky if you're just taking initial statements. Okay, he's home.
I called there, he said he was there. There's a van,
a weird homeless guy said she saw a lady fall
off the bridge. There might have been another person, and
then the bodies in the water. We guess what right there,
all that information, Yeah, sounds like a suicide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we have the benefit of being able to
focus all of our time and effort on this case exactly.
They're focusing on lots of different murders and su awards.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't COVID, Yeah, maybe they would have dug
in this deep. Maybe it wasn't they didn't have so
much going on. But with that going on, I want
to give them the benefit of the doubt and say
it was probably chaotic.
Speaker 4: Well, and another thing to think about here is that
we have the benefit of what happened after her death
and after they had ruled this a suicide, and we
look back through the social media posts and saw his
posts on I'm looking for a woman. I feel like
a man standing on one leg in the marriage. Three
months after while they were investigating this, none of that
had happened yet, so we are backed into this seems
a little suspicious. But another thing that's interesting to me
from this interview with Don is she has the same
suspicion moving forward and long term friends with Gwynn. We
all have friends from high school that we're very close
with but have moved apart and communicate those couple of
times a year. And if one of your friends texts
you and says, this is gonna be my best year yet,
and then the next thing you hear is that they've
committed suicide, that's red flags across the place.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point because it's not like
she wasn't being one hundred percent honest with her the
entire time before that message. Because there are friends you
have that are maybe good friends but more superficial, you're
not going to come to them with your dark stuff,
the things that you need help with yeah, she was
talking to her well prior to this about the dark stuff.
She was talking to her through her worst times. And
to your point, she messaged like, oh my gosh, it's
getting good. We got the new house, we're in a
wooded area. It's going to be the best year ever.
And that's when she does it, because it should have
been in October or November or when we heard that
there's domestic stuff that was the deepest, darkest part. That's
when someone who's actually going to do suicide probably would
do it when they're at their lowest, and she was
coming out of that. Then that's what doesn't add up.
Speaker 4: The other red flag that jumped out first time listening
to this interview, and this is news I think across
the board, is that Dawn had heard that Gwynn was
moving money around, that she was putting money in different banks.
And the speculation is, well, we don't know, and we
don't want to speculate, right, but that's.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you're a lawyer, you shouldn't spell, I can,
I'll speculate all that. Well, and she did say and
I think that's fair. I think that is fair to
put the disclaimer on. And she even mentioned it she
heard at third party, so Gwen didn't tell her she
was doing it, but she said she heard it from
someone who's a credible source. So let's assume again, now
we're speculating, but that's someone who is a close friend
to Gwen in gig Harbor, potentially, somebody that's close enough
to know that maybe it's a credible source of If
she's hiding money places, it's because she's fearing something or
she's gonna make a move. Again, if you're going to
commit suicide, why would you hide money away from potentially
getting to your children or the people that might need
to use that. I don't know. I'm sure there's lots
of detectives that are just like really furious that everything
we're saying about this type of stuff.
Speaker 2: But the reality is we're coming at it from just
a normal citizen who is taking in all the facts
and it doesn't make sense. None of it makes sense
why it wasn't investigated further other than the only caveat
is we had this crazy thing called COVID going on,
which is a very plausible reason why things happen the
way they did.
Speaker 1: And like I said, I always have to put myself
in the mindset of right at the beginning, because we
look at it and the.
Speaker 2: Detective come on and explain his reasoning for why these
various things didn't happen, like why didn't the toll booth
people get talked to? Why wasn't the video pulled? There
may be very explain it.
Speaker 1: Or maybe they didn't have toll booth people because of COVID.
Maybe they just left it open. Yeah, maybe I would
like Yeah, I mean, I'd like to know if there'd
still be video foot Yes, yeah, I mean we could
probably call this. I've told both people the dot and.
Speaker 2: I've run through toll booths in Chicago and you get
a letter in the mail with your a picture of
you in your car with your license plate saying like
you didn't pay the toll you're supposed to pay those Yeah,
I paid it eventually.
Speaker 4: But I think this all highlights the importance of what
you guys are doing right here, because we have the
police report and we know the steps that they went through,
and we're looking back right hindsight's twenty twenty, obviously, but
now we have Dawn's interview. I know you have more
exciting information to come out that you've been able to
on Earth and we're looking at this story from a
different light that just wasn't present in April in May
of twenty twenty, when when this investigation was going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think again, thank you to dawnsitting down
with us. We're still in contact with her. That every
The thing that the combines all of these people together
is they want justice. Y'all really love don or Gwen,
and they all feel like we do. They're just shocked
that this happened and nothing happened afterwards, like no one.
Speaker 1: Well and we're not even related, but I think we
I mean, Andy, you brought this to me on a
whim because you became kind of obsessed with it because
of what you saw, and you're not related. So it's
so you can only imagine how these people who can
about her, like directly feel. Family members feel like they
feel like something needs to be done, something's not happening.
So we've been getting the overwhelming response of they're so
glad this is happening now don mentioned it. She's like,
I can't tell my own family anymore because she's been
talking about it for two years. Yeah, and I've felt
helpless before and that is that can eat away at
you like crazy. So that's to us, we look at
as if we can use this platform to really shine
light on this, catapult this to the front, and potentially
get more news outlets, and I'll involved.
Speaker 2: The end goal is to get the investigation reopened. Yeah,
I mean, just want a second look at it. I
throw it out to the listeners. We have a lot
of people listening to the show now, which is awesome.
Out of all those people, if you know people that
are in news media or whatever, this is a this
could be a big story. Like I said, I'm not
as mean as Mike is. I'm just gonna say it.
It was a very convenient time for all of this
stuff to happen. And if you're gonna get away with
a crime, that was the time to do it when the.
Speaker 1: Entire world was disheveled. That's to me, is like what
a lucky opportunity to have something where someone might not
look as closely because of everything else.
Speaker 2: That's going And I'm not being mean to the police.
Speaker 1: I'm giving you a hard time.
Speaker 4: No, I'm just.
Speaker 2: Bringing up valid questions I have. If I was a
close family member, I would have asked those exact same things, like,
all right, did you talk to the tolbooth operators?
Speaker 1: No? Okay? Why not?
Speaker 2: Did you pull the video from the bridge?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: Okay? Why not?
Speaker 2: Did you investigate further once you learned of all the
other things that happened around Gwen in the last couple
of years, Okay?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: Like I would ask those questions if I was a
close family member, and I'd be really mad if they
didn't dig deeper into that.
Speaker 4: And I think you have a good point, Mike. So
when we I think the first episode, maybe even the
second episode, we were looking at this, we had Gwen's
obituary and no family was mentioned. And now we have
a maybe a little bit of reasoning for why there
was no family mentioned. And our speculation was, hey, maybe
no one's putting pressure to answers to these questions. Now
we know they were, and it was mentioned in the
police report, and you guys are digging up the answers
to the questions.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. And he speculated just a tiny bit at
the end and just said I've informed any family to
bring any information forward. And maybe as a detective, he's
got rules that he has to bye by. He can't
just go around and do the speculating that we might
be able to because we're a podcast show. He's got
to have hard evidence, and everything is just shy of
that hard evidence. Okay, I got kind of a witness.
It's a homeless guy who's completely inebriated.
Speaker 2: And most police departments are taxed to the max on
case loads, and they don't have the time without COVID.
Without COVID, they don't have the time or resources to
dig back into old cases they've closed. Especially, this isn't
like a murder case that they closed because they couldn't
find a killer. They closed a suicide, so they don't
have the resource. There has to probably be very like
a smoking gun to get them to reopen.
Speaker 1: I think on its surface level, it looks like a suicide.
If I'm being fair, it's we found the body. Toxicology
shows benzodiazepines in the system. Granted we didn't see how much.
But you have the witness saying, ah, a slave crusher
fan and gave me the keys, and then I saw
a shadow fall off the bridge on its face right
then and there. Hey, I'm sorry, it sounds and looks
like a suicide. I've got COVID to go deal with.
I've got two hundred other calls of people panicking. I'm
worried for my life, my own family. They are human,
after all, And if we're looking down the barrel of
what looks like a huge worldwide plague, what's the mindset
the detective? He could He's probably a good dude. He
probably is a good detective. But again, holy cow, is
everyone gonna die? I need to beat my family. This
looks like a suicide. I'm going home.
Speaker 2: And maybe they didn't want to interview all these people
because of risk of getting COVIDI. Absolutely, like you know what.
Speaker 1: The less contact. Remember they were letting people get away
with speeding. They were the officers I'm friends with were
told not two pole cars over. That's why the guy
broke the cannonball run record.
Speaker 4: I think with the change in protocol, right, there's.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, they said just don't engage, don't like because
everyone didn't know what was going to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Very interesting. Did you have any closing and Andy.
Speaker 4: No, I think you've hit it all on the head.
And honestly, I think that this is very encouraging. I
know that Dawn reached out to you. You've been in
contact with more people, and really what's happening is the
questions are being answered. You guys are getting there and
any light that shed on this is positive.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I agree with Andy. Yes, I think we're
doing a good shot.
Speaker 2: And if there's any other people at host podcast, True
Crime podcast listening, reach out to us if you want
to talk and if you truly didn't do it, we
want to get to the bottom of that too and
clear all speculation.
Speaker 1: Yep. Absolutely, I will say as a teaser going forward,
we have another interview coming up with Dora's stepsister. No,
with Dora, Oh yeah, with Gwen's stepsister. I'm sorry, I'm
getting all the name. It's down. Dora's so close, but
there's even different information, more information. That interview was almost
two hours, and then we did remove some things that
she was not comfortable with, so it's gonna end up
being about just the interview piece about an hour forty
five and hour fifty. Will be planning to record that
one next. We're gonna let this one sit for a while,
get people's feedback. We're hoping that the other people that
either interviewed with us or expressed interests that were worried
about doing it will bring forward some of that information
because outside of these two interviews, Yeah, there's even more
information that these two people didn't have that those people
are not comfortable sharing. And we've always stood by our word.
We're sitting on this stuff. If they never wanted out there,
it's gonna go to the grave with Mike and I
and Andy because we're not gonna sell anybody out. But
we hope that this gets more people interested in sharing
their story and information they have. What were we gonna say, Mike, Oh,
I was just gonna say, we have I think we've
got ten more people lined up to interview. Oh really, Yeah,
that's even more than what I thought. Holy cow, there's
a lot of people coming out and what's really not
shocking to me, but almost reinforcing it is and I
have to think of a way to say it to
not reveal anything. People who you people who contacted us,
who just based on who they were in the relationship
to Eric. I thought we're going to be a finally
good counterpoint to everything we've been saying. And I have
not gotten that out of any of them yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is universally across the spectrum of various people, friends, family, coworkers,
whoever they are, They've all come to the same conclusion,
which where in life when you talk to dozens of
people across the country from different where.
Speaker 1: In life nowadays do you see consensus.
Speaker 2: And census Where Yeah, different ages, different genders, different jobs,
different relationships with the people who are talking about everyone
has come to the same conclusion. That does not happen anymore.
Speaker 1: It does not know. Thanks again for tuning into our show.
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