WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:09.119 Hello, everybody, Welcome to another exciting episode of JavaScript Shabber. 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:11.400 I am Steve Edwards, the host with the face for 3 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:13.439 radio and the voice for being in mine. But you're 4 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:17.239 stuck with me as your host today. With me on 5 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:19.879 our panel, we have mister Dan Shapiro. 6 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.160 How are you doing, Dan, I'm fine, Hello from Tel Aviv. 7 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:25.760 Where it's probably really warm, right, well. 8 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.640 Not super warm, but nice. You know, you can wear 9 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:30.039 a T shirt outside if you like. 10 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:34.960 Right, Yeah, I was just I'll diverge a little bit here. 11 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.920 I was just in Thailand, been gone for a couple 12 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:42.240 of weeks. Was visiting my daughter there. And in Thailand 13 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.280 it's really really warm. It barely gets below seventy fahrenheit 14 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:47.799 during the year, even at the lowest point in the year. 15 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.000 And on the way there we got so I dressed 16 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.679 for Thailand, right too close for Thailand. Well, on the 17 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.920 way there, we got delayed in twenty four hours in Soul, Korea, 18 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:02.520 And to say it was cold is the understatement of 19 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.840 the year. We went from I told when we left 20 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:08.879 Seoul and went to Chang Mai, we went from twenty 21 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:13.079 two fahrenheit to twenty two celsius because it was. 22 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:14.719 Like below zero cold. 23 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:16.959 It was so cold we tried to go for a 24 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:19.200 walk one day and lasted about three minutes and said, okay, 25 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.760 we're going back inside. So but yeah, chang Mi was 26 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.200 awesome because we had it was like in the eighties fahrenheit, 27 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.079 you know, no humidity. This is the coolest time of 28 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.439 the year, coolest in terms of temperature. Not because I 29 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:36.480 was there, but but yeah, it was perfect, perfect weather. 30 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:38.480 And then I came back from wearing shorts and no 31 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:43.439 code all week to bundling up and having multiple lets 32 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:43.840 on the bed. 33 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:46.920 So tel Aviv is not in the eighties, but it's 34 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.959 in the high sixties, low seventies. 35 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:51.280 That's still pretty nice. 36 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:51.879 During the day. 37 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:53.120 Yeah, that's nice. 38 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.159 Night night it gets a bit colder. 39 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:58.959 And then also on our panel, we have mister aj 40 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:01.319 how are you doing, aj Yo yo? 41 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:05.239 Coming at you live from the show room, So. 42 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.319 It's better than the alternative, Yes. 43 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:10.280 Coming out you dead? Yes, I agree. 44 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:15.159 So, and our very special guest today is mister Tanner's 45 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:17.240 Wensley of tan Stack fame. 46 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:18.159 How you doing Tanner? 47 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:20.159 I do you agree? 48 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:22.759 Yeah, I'm very excited. 49 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:22.919 To be here. 50 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:24.759 All right, it's good to have you back. 51 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.680 We had have had Tanner here in the past on 52 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.000 JavaScript Drabber on episode what was it Dan? 53 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:31.000 I forgot the number. 54 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:34.599 Oh I think it was episode five seventy eight. 55 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.639 Five seventy eight talking about the tan Stack. And for 56 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:40.479 those of you who might be wondering, this is a 57 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.800 question I asked on the previous episode. It is not 58 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:46.560 called Tanner tan Stack because he is tan, because if 59 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:48.960 you look at him, he is obviously not very tan 60 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:49.599 like me. 61 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.560 It is tan because of Tanner. 62 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.400 So for those of you unlike me who made that 63 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:57.080 logical jump, good for you. 64 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:59.879 But some of us aren't that smart anyway. 65 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.120 So we are here ten day to talk about Actually, 66 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.439 before we get into start, let's uh just give a 67 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.560 brief description of what the tan stack is overview for 68 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.159 those who might not have heard of it before. 69 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:16.039 You guys are gonna give that, right, not me. 70 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:21.199 Yeah, yeah sure. Let me pull up the about us. 71 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.560 Page and you'll do it. Thank you, So do it 72 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:26.199 if you want to. 73 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:28.680 But I appreciate it. I got it. I'm just playing 74 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:34.199 with you. No. I started tan stack as like an 75 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.479 open source GitHub organization a couple of years ago to 76 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.080 start collecting all of my libraries that I was building. 77 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:47.360 It started with uh React table and then React query 78 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:50.120 that we took both of those agnostics, so they became 79 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:52.919 something that I didn't want to have to like brand 80 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.080 you know, every framework times every library that I had. 81 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.240 So I decided to call it TAN stack, and so 82 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.639 I pulled all those libraries together and then we kept building. 83 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:08.280 So now there's a there's a virtualization library called tan 84 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.319 SAG Virtual. We have some libraries that are for like 85 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.680 helping you build open source packages. We have our own 86 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:21.639 store now or reactive store. Tan sac form is an 87 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.160 agnostic headless form library, which is pretty sweet. It's almost 88 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.480 one dot zero, which is pretty pretty cool. What is that? 89 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:31.839 Is that like a form rendering library where you provide 90 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.560 the underlying structure and it renders the form or what exactly. 91 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:38.560 Yeah, so it's more around just like the state management, 92 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.759 the validation and the form life cycles for forms, like 93 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:47.279 for doing client side and full sack forms, but it's headless, 94 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.759 so when it comes time to render those forms, you 95 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:55.920 attached the form logic to whatever you want, whether it's 96 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.480 like a component library or just a raw input something 97 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.560 like that. Yeah, So it gives you full control over 98 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.199 you over your UI, but gives you all of the 99 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:09.160 nice logic and validation and management of the form state 100 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:10.279 that you would expect. 101 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:11.720 That's cool. 102 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.600 Yeah, Corbyn correctly is the one who's kind of heading 103 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:21.000 that up. We combined our libraries together. He was building 104 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:25.600 I can't remember when he was it's been a while, 105 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:27.920 it's been about two years, but he was building a 106 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.839 form library that was supposed to kind of be the 107 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:35.240 next version of Formic, but it was React only. And 108 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.240 then I was building one that was really really type 109 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.920 safe and agnostic. So we put them together and that 110 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:40.959 became pan sac form. 111 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.560 The according to the description, it helps you, quote stop 112 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.399 crying over your forms. So obviously obviously you have experience 113 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:50.519 in working with forms. 114 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:54.000 I don't cry too much, but if there's something that 115 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.399 would make me cry, it would be building forms. 116 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:57.639 Yeah. 117 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.839 By the way, are you familiar with the VEST form validator? 118 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:03.399 So what validator? Sorry? 119 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:04.680 Vest? 120 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:05.519 No, I'm not. 121 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.040 It's greaty. We actually had the creator own of hotel. 122 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.040 He's uh, he works at Meta, but it's it's his 123 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:18.519 own project. It's it's interesting in that it does form 124 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.199 validation in a way that looks very much like unit testing. 125 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:25.480 Interesting. Yeah, I would love to look at it. That 126 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:26.120 sounds cool. 127 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:29.000 So it's called best Okay. 128 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:32.040 Needless to say, he's you hear this coming, very invested 129 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:36.160 in it. Sorry, that was just hanging out there. I 130 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:37.120 had to grab that one. 131 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:43.319 Oh yeah, months of all so that so form is 132 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.120 kind of another one we're working on. And then obviously 133 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.199 the last so a year ago we did one dot 134 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.959 zero for Tan sac Router, which I'd been working on 135 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.360 for several years before that as well. And now we're 136 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.360 here to talk about start, which is. 137 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.079 So before before we go there, I noticed that you 138 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.519 have a few more things on the ten stack site. 139 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.560 You've got ten stack ranger. 140 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:13.399 What is that ranger is? It's not used as much 141 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:16.199 in my opinion. It's a fun little library from my past. 142 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.519 But you can use it to create multi range sliders. 143 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.480 So if you ever use the range element, you've got 144 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:29.000 that single slider. Yeah, we needed some that had both 145 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.639 handles that you'll kind of see for range slider selectors, 146 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.040 and then we even had some that would create steps, 147 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.120 so we'd have like three or four different handles on 148 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:43.160 an individual range input and you'd be able to kind 149 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:47.720 of create different steps using different handles. So it's a 150 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.560 headless library to create those we wanted it to have 151 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:55.079 a very custom UI. I don't use it as much 152 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.920 anymore admittedly, but it's still a pretty cool library. 153 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:00.519 And also ten stack configure. 154 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:06.920 Yeah, the the config is what we use for publishing 155 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:13.439 all of our libraries. So it it helps us both 156 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:18.959 build all of the different versions like ESM and common JS, 157 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:22.600 like legacy and modern versions, and it helps us publish 158 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:27.120 those to tan SAC using or to NPM using kind 159 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:31.680 of our It's it's based on Angular semantic version ing, 160 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:35.039 but basically lets us do all of our pr automation 161 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:36.919 for releasing new versions and whatnot. 162 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:44.240 Cool. Okay, So now back to ten stack start. 163 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:51.759 So start is I'm going to be honest, it's like 164 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:56.440 ninety percent of start is just tan stack router. Because 165 00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:59.720 routers are frameworks, there's not really any way around that. 166 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.639 But we decided, I decided to build the router first. 167 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.159 That's just like a client side router that would have 168 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.960 some SSR utilities on top of it. But then trying 169 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:17.320 to put together your own SSR environment really sucks, which 170 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:21.159 is why like meta frameworks as we call them exist. 171 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:27.840 So tansec start is like the official implementation of getting 172 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:34.480 server features into a tanseac router application that mostly includes 173 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.519 so you get SSR, which is the very first thing 174 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:42.000 which most people want. It gives you streaming on top 175 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.919 of that as well, so all the new streaming you 176 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:48.559 know APIs that React has for suspense and just being 177 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.960 able to stream data down in responses in general. And 178 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.600 then it gives you bundling for both, like for all 179 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.720 the environment, so it bundles the client side the server 180 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:05.240 SID and it also bundles for server functions, which is 181 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.080 it's our version of being able to access you know, 182 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.279 all of the server features that you would expect. But 183 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.639 so that's where it gets a little interesting. I think 184 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.200 we could discuss that a little bit more. But server 185 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.159 functions are really. 186 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.879 Cool before we get to server functions, which I would 187 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:27.840 definitely want to discuss. RPCS is a favorite topic of 188 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:30.360 mind and I actually had an episode on jobscript Jabber 189 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.919 when I spoke about our PCs. I don't even I 190 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.360 don't remember the number off the top of my head. 191 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.000 What about it? I would check both places. 192 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:45.840 Yeah, that's true. I think it's worth mentioning though, because 193 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.279 I think we kind of skipped it that all of 194 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.519 your libraries, utilities, frameworks, whatever, they're all built on top 195 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.679 of React. Right, there's nothing like that. You don't you 196 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:03.279 haven't implemented your own view framework or whatever it's supposed 197 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:03.759 to be called. 198 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.200 No, they're not built on top of React. We have 199 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:13.360 React adapters for all of them. So every single one 200 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:18.120 of these libraries is in fact called tanstak something because 201 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:23.679 it's no longer just React. So, for instance, tan sac 202 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.799 query has adapters for React and view and spelt and 203 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:33.000 solid tan sac Virtual has adapters for all of those, 204 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.039 and SODA's tan sac form and table. Tan sac router 205 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:41.600 is the only one that is currently React only, and 206 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:46.240 that's mostly just for our own sanity's sake right now, 207 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.960 basically because we just wanted to get all the way 208 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.759 finished from you know, zero to one dot zero on 209 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:59.519 one framework. We're still preparing the code base and writing 210 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:03.279 it to the agnostic but we're just not trying to, 211 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:05.879 you know, do too much at once. 212 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.559 You think it's really doable. I think I spoke with 213 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.360 Ryan Carneiato while back where he told me that I 214 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.720 think it might have been him. Maybe I'm confusing him 215 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.840 with somebody else, but I think was probably him, and 216 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:22.840 he probably said something along the lines that he came 217 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.679 to the conclusion that writing a true multi framework router 218 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.919 is bordering on impossible or something. 219 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:38.519 I've recently changed his mind. So he had some concerns 220 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.840 and so did I honestly, and we got together and 221 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.799 we we've been talking for I mean years, we go 222 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.120 back a long time, and we've been chatting a lot 223 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:51.480 about this, and recently he he's like, oh, you know what, 224 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.159 with our new Solid two point zero stuff they're working 225 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.559 on in the new async data primitives, there's really no 226 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:03.080 concerns anymore. It's just opinions on top of routing and 227 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.720 life cycles for navigation. So really what we're going to 228 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.559 do is actually I'll let you in on some fun news. 229 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.200 So it's nothing. It's something official and it might might 230 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.960 never become something official, but behind the scenes, So the 231 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:23.679 Tanstack Start and the Solid start team we're working very 232 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:28.039 very closely now on a lot of things. So mainly 233 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.000 one is that tansec Start and Solid have both been 234 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.279 based on Vinci up to this point, which is awesome. 235 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:36.519 It helped us get to where we are today. 236 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:37.639 But to. 237 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.919 Better consume Nitro and to even further align our architectures, 238 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:47.360 we are we are moving away from Vincy to just 239 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:51.600 a unified layer for start essentially, and it's just going 240 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:58.120 to have some server function plugins on Nitro coordinator and 241 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.720 that's going to set this stage four tan stack router 242 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:08.440 for solid, so solid router, and that's that's not nice 243 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.159 that that is a semi active development. We have some 244 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.519 people who are you know, we're separating some of the utilities. 245 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.120 We're making sure that you know, we're not mixing up 246 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.240 framework types and getting ready to build these adapters. But 247 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:25.840 essentially there's nothing blocking us now if we want. If 248 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.120 I wanted to divert all my attention to solid router 249 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.000 and solid you know, getting that working and solid, I 250 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.759 could do that today, but I'm not going to do 251 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.000 that till we get the REACT when done. 252 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.080 So question about that. You threw out a whole bunch 253 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:41.200 of project names, some of which are familiar with, some 254 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.799 of which less. So Vincy Nitro also as I recalled, 255 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:51.480 Vinci is built on VAT. Yeah, so can you tell 256 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.399 us a little bit about all these projects? 257 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:58.080 I would love to. So let's start at the let's 258 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.240 start the bottom level. So all of this is based 259 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.720 on beat where one hundred percent bought into the VAT ecosystem. 260 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.919 I believe it's I believe it's the future. So we 261 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:08.679 wouldn't be able to do any of this without Beat. 262 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:09.840 And at the end of the day, a lot of 263 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:14.879 this boils down to just VEAT and Beat plugins, and 264 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.360 some of it is going to use the new VAT 265 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.960 six environment APIs, and some of it we can just 266 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.440 do today already just by building multiple environments ourselves. So 267 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.279 then on top of VEAT there's Nitro. So Nitro is 268 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:36.480 this toolkit that it uses Beat, but it helps you 269 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.360 build your back end code to work basically anywhere you 270 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.159 want to deploy it. So you can use Nitro as 271 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:47.600 this unified layer. Nitro is by the UNJS team and 272 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:51.639 it has this unified layer for pretty much everything you'd 273 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.120 want to do on the back end. You can write 274 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:59.120 your code mostly one way and deploy it to basically 275 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.480 anywhere that they may maintain an adapter for and it 276 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:02.159 will just work. 277 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:09.080 So they handle the deployment part of building a framework 278 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.240 Slash Metal framework for you, because that's obviously a big 279 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:15.399 challenge having to deploy to all the different platforms. 280 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:20.799 Well, like to put it into perspective if you so, so, 281 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:25.720 like next JS and Remix, they have to maintain their 282 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:31.159 own adapters to build their projects into the right formats 283 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:37.480 for all these different deployment destinations. Nitro does that. That's 284 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.759 Nitro's job, and so if you just use Nitro, you 285 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.320 don't have to worry about that and duplicate all that effort. 286 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:47.519 You just get to use what Nitro has built. So literally, 287 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:53.039 for me, I recently migrated a site from Versell over 288 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.360 to Netlify, and it was literally the difference of me 289 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:03.000 going into my config and saying deployment you know, I 290 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.880 think deployment preset, I think is what it's called. I 291 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.000 just changed it. It's a string, and just changed it 292 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:13.319 from Vercell to Netlafi. And when I rebuilt it, it 293 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.640 just rebuilt everything for Netlify instead. I didn't have to 294 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:18.319 change anything. 295 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.279 And it also assumes supports as cloud Flare whatever and 296 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:24.279 so on and so forth. 297 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:29.240 Yeah, and so Nitro is built on top of VEAT 298 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.519 and they're upgrading to the new VAT APIs as well. 299 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:37.119 So it's the clearest path for no duplicated effort. Really 300 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:42.119 whatsoever is they're going to maintain these adapters and we're 301 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.559 going to use Nitro directly, and you get to use 302 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.759 the Nitro APIs in your apps as well, so they 303 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.359 have wonderful products like un storage where you just kind 304 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.599 of have this unified storage API and you supply the 305 00:17:55.720 --> 00:18:01.480 drivers and that driver may map to, you know, one 306 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.519 type of memory on this host, or you could map 307 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.480 it to another one. If you're using cloud flair, you 308 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.319 could map it to D one or something like that. 309 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:13.599 So they have a really great like abstraction for all 310 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.960 of these different implementations of features that we like to 311 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:19.160 use on servers. 312 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:24.519 I'm curious aside from you guys, you and Ryan and 313 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.680 who else is using them for what. 314 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.960 It actually came out of the view and the Next ecosystem. 315 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:38.119 So Next is built on top of UJS essentially like 316 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:43.480 all of it, and that's what they use. So UNJS 317 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.519 and Nitro is kind of like the lower level server 318 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.680 toolkit and the primitives that came out of the Next project. 319 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:52.960 I was wondering if there was a relationship because I 320 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.519 remember talking with Daniel Rowe about Nitro when that first 321 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.079 came in, when they first started using that, and the 322 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.119 speed increase was supposedly real phenomenal. 323 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.759 And you know who else uses it is Brandon who 324 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:09.400 built analog JS. So that's it's the it's kind of 325 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.279 the same approach, like, hey, let's build a framework that 326 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:17.000 uses Nitro, but for Angular. So he built his own 327 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:20.559 Angular meta framework and it uses Nitro under the hood. 328 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.799 Very very cool. That's that's how powerful and portable it is. 329 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.640 So it's certainly interesting that vit came out of you 330 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:30.839 and now Nitro came out of you. So if he 331 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:35.839 was contributing a lot to the framework space way beyond 332 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:36.920 View itself. 333 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:42.279 Yeah, absolutely, There's there's a lot of things about Next 334 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.119 that have been pushing forward what we've been able to 335 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:52.359 do outside of like Next itself. It's pretty sweet. So 336 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:59.079 Vinchi Vinci is built by Nikhil Serov, and Nikiel was 337 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.279 working on a Solid team for a little while. I 338 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.680 think he still is technically started the part of the 339 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:09.960 Solid team. But before VT six came out, there wasn't 340 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.960 really a way for you to do kind of a 341 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.480 unified Hey I'm building a full stack application, like a 342 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.240 unified config you would have to have had like one 343 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.359 VAT configuration and build setup for your client, and then 344 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.000 you'd have to have another setup with Nitro or something 345 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.359 else for your back end, and you kind of merge 346 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:35.000 those together or you end up building something that something 347 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.680 like that on your own, like Remix has done. But 348 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:43.240 Nikkio wanted kind of this unified layer, and we also 349 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:47.759 needed to do some multi environment things before VAT six 350 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.720 came out, so he built Vinchi vin XI and Vinci 351 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:58.839 is essentially a wrapper around that experience. So it uses 352 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:04.240 Nitro directly and Beat directly to coordinate this full stack 353 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:11.079 dev and broad build experience. And it was phenomenal, Like 354 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.000 it helped me get off the ground really quickly and 355 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.400 just start focusing on building like the run time and 356 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:22.119 my framework APIs. Now that we're getting closer to one 357 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.720 dot zero for Tanstak Start, we want I want more 358 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.599 control over what we're doing with Nitro and what we're 359 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:35.440 doing with VAT, and Nikkiel is also just very busy 360 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.440 with other things, in my opinion, more important things for him, 361 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:42.680 and that's totally fine. So Ryan and I have decided 362 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:46.400 that we're going to kind of slowly start to supplant 363 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:52.720 this Vinci logic with just a shared layer that we 364 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.039 that we use between all the start projects implemented in 365 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.759 what by the way, Well, sorry, what do you mean? 366 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.039 What are you Well, of course, I of course I 367 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:08.960 assume it's job Well typescript, but like, what libraries are 368 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.480 you using there? Is it like based on signals because 369 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:13.720 it's Ryan or no. 370 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:16.960 So so this layer is mostly going to be a 371 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:23.200 collection of veat plugins that are very configurable and they'll 372 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:28.240 use Babel under the hood, and really it will all 373 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.279 come together in hopefully what's going to be a very 374 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.200 thin layer on top of Nitro. So essentially just feeding 375 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:41.640 Nitro a unified config to say, here's here's what I 376 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:44.119 want you to build for my server environment, for my 377 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:49.759 SSR environment, and for my client environment, those the bundles particularly, 378 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.519 and just to kind of make all that cohesive. 379 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:55.599 Mm. 380 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.599 Yeah, it'll just be typescript at the end of the day. 381 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:01.440 What I would like to have it be is just 382 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:05.039 a veat plug in itself, which kind of sounds weird. 383 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.960 It's a beat plug in that would call into Nitro 384 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:14.119 to produce many different environments and build even more veat 385 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.880 the bundles. So but that's I think that's the beautiful 386 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.519 part about it is that if we can boil it 387 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.119 down to just Beat plugins, I think it's going to 388 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:23.960 be really powerful. 389 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.400 And that's basically going to be like under some sort 390 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:29.480 of a start moniker. 391 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:35.200 Yeah, most likely we'll probably just share internal packages privately 392 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.039 for now, and each one of us will just export 393 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.160 our own builders for it, so you'll still you know, 394 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.960 you'll probably build something like create tan stacks start. VAT 395 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.319 will be like one of our packages, and you'll call 396 00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:52.440 that function and it will produce all the VAT plugins 397 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.799 that you need to add to your build essentially. 398 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.400 And the way, by the way, one thing that you 399 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:05.359 said before, or that the ten stack router was ninety 400 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.839 percent of the way towards tenstack start in terms of 401 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.200