Speaker 1: You are listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast. I am
Speaker 1: here with my erstwhile co host Kyle Walley. Kyle is
Speaker 1: a pastor, author, podcast of What Foster Father and so
Speaker 1: many other things, and in particular, today we are going
Speaker 1: to be talking about Kyle's new book, which is fun
Speaker 1: because we talked, I think end of last season about
Speaker 1: many things and how Christians can be talking with others,
Speaker 1: both inside and outside the church in ways that reflect
Speaker 1: the gentleness and love of Christ. And today we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking about a topic which is very close
Speaker 1: to my heart in that I I feel like it's
Speaker 1: one of the most underpreached elements of the Gospel and
Speaker 1: has perhaps even closer to Krsark because he's readen a
Speaker 1: whole book about it, which is the topic of union
Speaker 1: with Christ. And I think your forthcoming book, Kyle is
Speaker 1: beautifully titled actually Home with God Union with Christ. Tell
Speaker 1: us why that title Home with God is an interesting
Speaker 1: sort of angle on this whole idea of Christian union
Speaker 1: with Christ. Why why'd you go that direction?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think part of it is the
Speaker 2: whole story of the Bible is God inviting his people
Speaker 2: to dwell with him like God creates a home that
Speaker 2: he then you know that he populates, and he invites
Speaker 2: his creatures to dwell with him, namely the image bearers
Speaker 2: us as human beings, he invites us to dwell in
Speaker 2: his presence. I mean, that's the story in the garden,
Speaker 2: and it's the story at the end of the end
Speaker 2: of the story, right, the whole Revelation twenty one and
Speaker 2: twenty two. Behold, the well in place of God is
Speaker 2: with man. And so I think, from beginning to end,
Speaker 2: the story of the Bible is the story of home
Speaker 2: with God. And honestly, I think one of the real
Speaker 2: treasures of the doctrine of union with Christ is that
Speaker 2: it shines a light on what I think is the
Speaker 2: goal of the good news of the Gospel. You know,
Speaker 2: a lot of times when we think about Christian salvation,
Speaker 2: we place the emphasis on forgiveness. But forgiveness is not
Speaker 2: the goal of salvation. Fellowship is the goal of salvation,
Speaker 2: and union with Christ is showcasing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. I think in many
Speaker 1: people's minds, if they have some sort of grasp on
Speaker 1: the message of Christianity, it is that Jesus died so
Speaker 1: that we could be forgiven so that our sins could
Speaker 1: be paid for. And it's almost like I think, in
Speaker 1: some people's minds that kind of gets us to a
Speaker 1: zero sort of point. If you think about, imagine your
Speaker 1: bank account. Maybe you're in massive debt and you're thinking,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do about this matter of debt.
Speaker 1: Jesus's death takes that debt away, and I think we
Speaker 1: sort of missed the fact often that it's not just
Speaker 1: that we brought back to you know, we're back in
Speaker 1: the black, but with zero dollars or pounds or yen
Speaker 1: in our account, that we are filled up with Jesus's righteousness,
Speaker 1: and that it's not even just in the sort of
Speaker 1: computational sense, but that it's actually in the relational sense.
Speaker 1: Tell us what did you primarily learn in the course
Speaker 1: of writing this book sort of for yourself as you
Speaker 1: were reflecting on what it means for us to be
Speaker 1: united with Christ if we're follow us with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, I think this is something that
Speaker 2: I encountered. The doctrine of union with Christ is something
Speaker 2: I encountered long after I became a Christian, and like
Speaker 2: a lot of times in our discipleship, as we walk
Speaker 2: with the Lord. There are things that we've probably heard
Speaker 2: just in the course of Christian living, Christian discipleships, sitting
Speaker 2: under faithful preaching, that don't really click for us until
Speaker 2: later on. I'm sure I had heard about the wonders
Speaker 2: of union with Christ prior to the time in which
Speaker 2: I became aware of it, or I became conscious of it,
Speaker 2: but I can remember it was actually sitting in a
Speaker 2: class in seminary with doctor Sinclair Ferguson where it really
Speaker 2: clicked for me, where it really kind of all came
Speaker 2: to the surface, so to speak, that the doctrine of
Speaker 2: union with Christ is not a part of the doctrine
Speaker 2: of Christian salvation, but is like the foundation of Christian salvation.
Speaker 2: And so whenever I was writing this book, I think
Speaker 2: the thing that occurred to me, and it occurred to
Speaker 2: me too when I read Sam's book, our mutual friend
Speaker 2: Sam Alberry, he has a wonderful book coming out. It
Speaker 2: actually come out before mine. Mine releases in like spring
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five. Sam's comes out sometime this fall
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four. And it occurred to me while
Speaker 2: I read Sam's book as well. But it's just the
Speaker 2: majesty is that God is inviting us not just into
Speaker 2: being made righteous, but being in a relationship. I think
Speaker 2: a lot of times when we think about Christian salvation,
Speaker 2: there is a little bit of what has God saved
Speaker 2: us for. We talk a lot about what God has
Speaker 2: saved us from. God has saved us from sin. God
Speaker 2: has saved us from death. God has saved us from
Speaker 2: the kingdom of the Prince of the power of the
Speaker 2: air Satan. There's a lot of talk about that. There
Speaker 2: is less talk about what God has saved us for.
Speaker 2: And when we think about what God has saved us for,
Speaker 2: we almost always move towards our response, which is a worship,
Speaker 2: mission and obedience. And that's certainly true. In Christ Jesus,
Speaker 2: we have been freed up to participate in God's world,
Speaker 2: in God's man, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, in
Speaker 2: God's beloved Son. But it's not just that God has
Speaker 2: freed us for our response to that. God has freed
Speaker 2: us for fellowship with Him delighting love. So I think
Speaker 2: the thing that I don't know if I learned it,
Speaker 2: but I certainly was kind of being reoriented by it
Speaker 2: as I reflected on it is that in Christ Jesus.
Speaker 2: I am not just the recipient of God's gracious love
Speaker 2: that forgives. I'm a recipient of God's delighting love that beholds.
Speaker 2: You know, zeph and Iah three talks about God rejoices
Speaker 2: over his people and song, he delights over them and dance.
Speaker 2: He quiets them by his love. This great truth is
Speaker 2: that in Christ Jesus the beloved Son, I too, among
Speaker 2: God's people, are beloved because I'm in the beloved One.
Speaker 2: And that's a really I think that's understated. When we
Speaker 2: think about the good News of the Gospel. You know,
Speaker 2: we talk about much about God's mercy to forgive and
Speaker 2: less about God's delighting love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and it's something that
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the glories of being a Christian
Speaker 1: is at the end all of the different things that
Speaker 1: we learn about God from the Bible actually connect up
Speaker 1: with each other. That they're not just sort of these discrete, different,
Speaker 1: you know, different ideas that happen to have been grouped together,
Speaker 1: but they're all fundamentally connected. And for me, one of
Speaker 1: the primary ways in which union christ union with christ
Speaker 1: Lands is actually in the in the whole area of
Speaker 1: how God has designed Christian marriage because it's one of
Speaker 1: the I mean, as we've talked to a number of
Speaker 1: times on this on this podcast, one of the strangest
Speaker 1: in our cultural moment today, one of the strangest kind
Speaker 1: of Christian doctrines is the the teaching that sex only
Speaker 1: belongs in marriage, and the marriage is between one man
Speaker 1: and one woman for life, and that this forges a
Speaker 1: one flesh union between these two entities. But actually when
Speaker 1: we when we look at that in the context of scripture,
Speaker 1: what we find is that it's it's part of how
Speaker 1: God is teaching us about our union with Christ. And
Speaker 1: you know Impall's letters to the Ephesians, he describes Christian
Speaker 1: marriage as being a picture of Jesus' relationship with as people,
Speaker 1: of that one flesh union, of that sort of head
Speaker 1: and body. You and I wouldn't do very well if
Speaker 1: our head and our body were disunited from each other,
Speaker 1: you know, seven from one another. And like wh if
Speaker 1: we are followers of Jesus, we are connected with him
Speaker 1: as closely as a head with a body like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just ridiculous to think of them them apart.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the other pieces of this
Speaker 2: and I think this is something that you and I
Speaker 2: have talked about at length, and I know it's something
Speaker 2: that you're passionate about. Is a lot of emphasis over
Speaker 2: the last you know, ten to fifteen years and published material,
Speaker 2: kind of at the lay level on union with Christ
Speaker 2: is on identity. And that's a crucial part of the
Speaker 2: doctrine of union with Christ is that in Christ Jesus,
Speaker 2: we are given a new identity. The way I talk
Speaker 2: about in the book is in Christ we receive a
Speaker 2: new me. And there is a lot of attention given
Speaker 2: to the question of identity in who we are. And
Speaker 2: that's been true for a long time, but it's been
Speaker 2: particularly true and kind of this cultural moment of reflection
Speaker 2: on identity over the last fifteen twenty years, the question
Speaker 2: of who am I has increased in relevance in this
Speaker 2: kind of late modern period. The book talks a lot
Speaker 2: about how are the doctrine of union with Christ, how
Speaker 2: our union with Christ are being in Him and with
Speaker 2: Him and through Him reshapes how we view ourselves and
Speaker 2: who we are before God and others. I would say
Speaker 2: one thing that did become clear to me as I
Speaker 2: wrote the book that was more of a discovery. And
Speaker 2: I know you know you've written You've written more books
Speaker 2: now than there are degrees on a thermometer, So you
Speaker 2: know that you can start reading, uh, you can start
Speaker 2: writing a book and discover something along the way. But
Speaker 2: one of those things, one of the things that I
Speaker 2: discovered in writing this book was just how emphatic the
Speaker 2: Bible is not on our individual participation in Christ, but
Speaker 2: in terms of our incorporated participation in Christ. In Christ Jesus,
Speaker 2: we don't just receive a new me. We receive a
Speaker 2: new we. We're we're now, We're now brought in to
Speaker 2: the family of God. We become sons and daughters of
Speaker 2: God because we are in God's beloved Son. And we
Speaker 2: become brothers and sisters in Christ because we are in
Speaker 2: Christ Jesus. And this is for all that the Bible
Speaker 2: has to say about how being in Christ changes me,
Speaker 2: it has more to say about how being in Christ
Speaker 2: now changes we change us collectively. And that was something
Speaker 2: that I think that given my kind of embeddedness in
Speaker 2: the global West and a hyper individualistic age, I discovered,
Speaker 2: you know, I've probably been too emphatic about the identity
Speaker 2: piece of union with Christ and to understated about the
Speaker 2: incorporation the new we that God gives us as a
Speaker 2: new family in Christ. And I was really delighted to
Speaker 2: discover that. I know that's something you're passionate about as well.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think one of the things I've always
Speaker 2: been encouraged by in your witness has been that you
Speaker 2: and your family have really decided to have a meaningful
Speaker 2: belonging to a group of people. I see that in
Speaker 2: your life, and I've seen it lived in the way
Speaker 2: that you travel and the way that you live there
Speaker 2: and your online presence that you're very committed to this
Speaker 2: sense of we're not just going to use the body
Speaker 2: of Christ language as a metaphor, but you've really tried
Speaker 2: to make it kind of the pitter patter, so to speak,
Speaker 2: of your ordinary life. And that's been a witness to me.
Speaker 2: So thank you for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's something which, as you point out,
Speaker 1: as you know, those of us who are coming to
Speaker 1: the scriptures with the twenty first century is sort of
Speaker 1: Western mindset. It's really easy for us just to miss
Speaker 1: definitely how much family language there is there, how much
Speaker 1: of a sense, as you point out, of the we
Speaker 1: of the it's not just that we are united with
Speaker 1: Christ individually, but that by virtue of being in Christ,
Speaker 1: we are one with one another, and that there are
Speaker 1: ways in which that needs to look real in our
Speaker 1: lives and not just just in our talk. I'm curious.
Speaker 1: So one of the ways in which I think you
Speaker 1: actually beautifully sort of model what it looks like to
Speaker 1: be a follower of Jesus in a particular way is
Speaker 1: in the fact that you and your wife are are
Speaker 1: foster parents. Are there ways in which I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: about this, even the sort of concept of home with
Speaker 1: God and creating a home for people who for one
Speaker 1: reason or another have been without a home in the
Speaker 1: sort of normal, typical biological sense of family. How has
Speaker 1: your experience as a foster father helped you to understand
Speaker 1: more of what it means for us to be invited
Speaker 1: into God's home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'm learning and my family is learning. You know.
Speaker 2: I think that I think when we think about the
Speaker 2: life of the Christian, when God invites us to make
Speaker 2: our home with Him in Christ, because that's how I
Speaker 2: think about you with Christ, is that God is inviting us.
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of times the simple gospel presentation
Speaker 2: that we hear in many situations and certainly in many
Speaker 2: evangelistic presentations, is God is inviting you to invite Him
Speaker 2: into your life. And there is some language in the
Speaker 2: New Testament about being about Christ in us, but the
Speaker 2: overwhelming emphasis in the Bible and the overwhelming emphasis in
Speaker 2: the New Testament is not God is inviting you to
Speaker 2: invite Him into your life. It's God is inviting you
Speaker 2: to surrender your life to live with Him in Christ.
Speaker 2: That is far and away, it's his house. And so
Speaker 2: it's definitely focused on, Hey, we're as we reside in Christ. Now,
Speaker 2: as we take up this dwelling places we receive this
Speaker 2: new home with God in Christ. It does affect and
Speaker 2: I talk about this really in the second half of
Speaker 2: the book. I talk at length about how this begins
Speaker 2: to affect the life that we live because now that
Speaker 2: we live in Christ Jesus, it has incredible bearing on
Speaker 2: the way that are the household of God. So a
Speaker 2: local church should uh should live its life and our
Speaker 2: individual households as kind of whatever that means, whether you know,
Speaker 2: I'm living with roommates, or I'm living with a spouse,
Speaker 2: or I'm living with extended family. Maybe I'm in a
Speaker 2: multi generational household. Maybe I'm in a maybe I'm just
Speaker 2: a good native and I'm inviting people in through hospitality,
Speaker 2: or whether we're having children biologically, or we're adopting children
Speaker 2: as my family has done, or fostering children as we're
Speaker 2: doing now, any of those situations. The doctrine of union
Speaker 2: with Christ absolutely shapes how we participate in the world
Speaker 2: through these kind of smaller households like a local church,
Speaker 2: and then our individual households, principally, because if we have
Speaker 2: been welcomed by God in Christ, even though we couldn't
Speaker 2: earn it and we don't deserve it, and it's not
Speaker 2: just because of grace and mercy and pity, but because
Speaker 2: of compassion and love and delight, well, then that does
Speaker 2: shape the way that we live as a church as
Speaker 2: a hospitable community, and the way that we exercise that
Speaker 2: hospitality as individual households. Oftentimes, Christian compassion is grounded in
Speaker 2: some sort of I need to pay back to God
Speaker 2: through this kind of theological altruism. God has done so
Speaker 2: much for me, so now I need to do so
Speaker 2: much for him. Right Like Gosh, I'm the recipient of
Speaker 2: great grace, and so as the sipping of great grace.
Speaker 2: I should extend great grace. That's not not true. I
Speaker 2: think that's a part of kind of the chemistry of
Speaker 2: Christian love and compassion. But it's not the only thing.
Speaker 2: Because God's love for us is not only the love
Speaker 2: of grace and mercy. It's the love of delight and fellowship.
Speaker 2: So this means that Christian hospitality is not just I
Speaker 2: am going to reflect back the grace that God has
Speaker 2: given to me. It's no, no, I'm also going to extend
Speaker 2: to the world the welcome that God has extended to me.
Speaker 2: You see, it's not just duty, it's also delight. It's
Speaker 2: not just forgiveness, it's also fellowship. It's not just I must,
Speaker 2: it's that I can. It's not just that I will
Speaker 2: or I should, It's that I want to. And so
Speaker 2: this is I think, a really beautiful thing. I'll tell
Speaker 2: you one area that I think this actually kind of
Speaker 2: getting off of your original question, but certainly relevant to
Speaker 2: our kind of contemporary conversations. How much conversation has there
Speaker 2: been in the last let's say, seven to ten years
Speaker 2: on the question of justice in a broken world? Significant
Speaker 2: and for good reason, because we increasingly find ourselves grappling
Speaker 2: with demonstrations and depictions of injustice. And as we grow
Speaker 2: in our historical awareness and as we grow in our
Speaker 2: global awareness, we've increasingly become concerned at a cultural level
Speaker 2: around the question of justice, what is right and good.
Speaker 2: I think the doctrine of union with Christ actually empowers
Speaker 2: Christians to improvise on justice knowing that the review on
Speaker 2: our lives is already in We don't have to go
Speaker 2: out into a world to pursue what is just so
Speaker 2: that we can prove to that very same world that
Speaker 2: we are just, or proved ourselves approved to God. In
Speaker 2: Christ Jesus, God has already declared us righteous, He's already
Speaker 2: declared us just, and on that foundation we can pursue
Speaker 2: what is just without having to try to perform justice
Speaker 2: in a way that's self serving. I think that's an
Speaker 2: example of how union with Christ doesn't just shape kind
Speaker 2: of our theology, doesn't just shape the the way we
Speaker 2: read the Bible, though I spend significant time talking about
Speaker 2: that in the the book. It also shapes the way
Speaker 2: that we just live in the way of Jesus because
Speaker 2: we're living in Christ themself, and it produces tremendous power
Speaker 2: and tremendous freedom in living that life that I think
Speaker 2: is directly tied to our meditation or reflection on this
Speaker 2: doctrine specifically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think that's absolutely right. One of the
Speaker 1: verses that I've kind of almost stubbed my toe on
Speaker 1: recently is that little line in Romans when Paul says,
Speaker 1: welcome one another as Christ has welcomed us or you
Speaker 1: to the glory of God. And it's like, it's easy
Speaker 1: to gloss over it. Yeah, I mean, there's so much
Speaker 1: when you read the Letter of the Romans, there are
Speaker 1: so many verses that sort of smack you in the
Speaker 1: face that it's easy to miss that command to welcome
Speaker 1: one another as Christ has welcomed us. But if we
Speaker 1: sit there and we realize what on earth Paul is
Speaker 1: saying there, I mean, how has Christ welcomed you and
Speaker 1: me not only by becoming a human being and living,
Speaker 1: you know, among us, taking our flesh upon himself, but
Speaker 1: also by dying in our place and rising from the
Speaker 1: dead to bring us into everlasting life with like. The
Speaker 1: welcome that Christ has extended to us is radical, beyond
Speaker 1: our wildest imaginings, and that is the model for how
Speaker 1: we are to welcome one another in the church, regardless
Speaker 1: of where we come from, or what we look like,
Speaker 1: or how you know, how naturally sympatica we may be
Speaker 1: with one another. That there's this extraordinary call to unity,
Speaker 1: and I think that expresses itself in Christian fellowship. It
Speaker 1: expresses itself in ways that are just because if I
Speaker 1: consider other believers to be members of my own family,
Speaker 1: and people with whom I have are sort of built
Speaker 1: in intimacy, I'm going to care about their needs and
Speaker 1: their suffering and the ways in which they are excluded
Speaker 1: or sort of pushed down, just as I would care
Speaker 1: about that for my own children or for my own
Speaker 1: You know that it takes away that natural human tendency
Speaker 1: to kind of them and us people, because in Christ,
Speaker 1: within the church there is only an Us, and then
Speaker 1: the them's outside the church are those We're also called
Speaker 1: to extend Jesus as welcome to and to plead with,
Speaker 1: to love even our enemies because of the way that
Speaker 1: Jesus has loved us when we were his enemies. There's
Speaker 1: this radical you know, people talk today about, you know,
Speaker 1: radical acceptance or whatever, and I'm like this, as with
Speaker 1: so many things in the world today that have grown
Speaker 1: secular legs, they're actually Christian concepts.
Speaker 2: No doubt.
Speaker 1: Yeah that radical welcome.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, you're exactly right. And we actually talked
Speaker 2: in some way about this fairly early on in the
Speaker 2: history of this show. We talked about the exclusivity of
Speaker 2: Christ and one of the things while the exclusivity of Christ,
Speaker 2: by which I mean that Jesus Christ is the only
Speaker 2: way to fellowship with God, forgiveness of sins and freedom
Speaker 2: in God's world, both now and forever. That's what we
Speaker 2: mean by exclusivity, that there is no other way to
Speaker 2: God or to dwelling with God outside of Christ. That
Speaker 2: on its surface, in a late modern age is offensive.
Speaker 2: I mean, it is just because it is demonstrating exclusivity,
Speaker 2: exclusivity of story, exclusivity of belief. It is narrow. But
Speaker 2: the reality is is that in Christ we find what
Speaker 2: is simultaneously radically exclusive and radically inclusive. It's radically exclusive
Speaker 2: because you can only enter into fellowship with God in
Speaker 2: and through Christ Jesus. But it's radically inclusive and that
Speaker 2: anyone can like, anyone can like. It doesn't matter what
Speaker 2: your sexual orientation is, It doesn't matter what your background is.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what your ethnic or cultural background is,
Speaker 2: what your socioeconomic class is, it does not matter. Now
Speaker 2: when you come to him, he will tell you have
Speaker 2: to surrender everything about you to His identity in his way.
Speaker 2: And if you do that, if you step into that
Speaker 2: and you surrender all that you are, then he invites
Speaker 2: you in in forgiveness and in fellowship. And that really
Speaker 2: is good news. And it's good news specifically because it's
Speaker 2: tied to this new identity and this new body, this
Speaker 2: new membership, this new incorporation that He gives us in Christ,
Speaker 2: Jesus by grace through faith. And so I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that's one of the things that the doctrine of
Speaker 2: union with Christ holds forth, is that the good news
Speaker 2: of the gospel that most often people here is God
Speaker 2: wants to forgive you for being wrong and you were
Speaker 2: born wrong. That is a true and essential part of
Speaker 2: the gospel. But I do find that many people are
Speaker 2: put off by that because there is not because it's
Speaker 2: offensive on its surface, even though it is to our
Speaker 2: sin bent selves, because it's not complimented. But by what
Speaker 2: the goal of that is. God isn't just giving, He's
Speaker 2: not just saying I want to forgive you because you
Speaker 2: are wrong and you were born wrong. That's true, but
Speaker 2: it's not the only thing that's true. I don't want
Speaker 2: to just forgive you because you're wrong and you were
Speaker 2: born wrong. I want to forgive you so that you
Speaker 2: can dwell with me, so that you can so that
Speaker 2: we can live and fellowship together. If we only give
Speaker 2: part A of the Gospel and we never extend Part
Speaker 2: B of the Gospel, all we really will end up
Speaker 2: creating are people who believe that they're forgiven, and then
Speaker 2: we'll ask what now, and there will be no meaningful
Speaker 2: response to it. But the Doctor of youth, Christ doesn't divide,
Speaker 2: doesn't tear asunder what Christ unites. It says, no, in Christ,
Speaker 2: you have both forgiveness and fellowship. God isn't just a
Speaker 2: judge who is saying, okay, you're acquitted. He's a judge that,
Speaker 2: having cleansed the record, now invites you to a feast
Speaker 2: in his home. That is the whole picture of salvation.
Speaker 2: And it's more beautiful because it's more true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think ultimately it makes a lot more
Speaker 1: sense of the seemingly bizarre Christian teaching that trusting in
Speaker 1: Jesus is the way to fellowship with God. Because I
Speaker 1: think in a lot of people's minds, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you Christians are saying that if I give some sort
Speaker 1: of intellectual assent to something that this random guy did
Speaker 1: two thousand years ago, then I'll get a ticket to heaven,
Speaker 1: and that if I don't, I will get a ticket
Speaker 1: to hell. That it's almost almost like an arbitrary sorting
Speaker 1: of humanity that God has set up for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: when actually the Christian message is saying, if you repent
Speaker 1: and believe and put your trust in Christ, you will
Speaker 1: be included in Christ, in Jesus, in the Sun, and
Speaker 1: therefore you will live with Him forever. Yes, whether there's
Speaker 1: actually a profound connection between repentance and faith in Jesus
Speaker 1: and our eternal lestiny, because heaven is shorthand for everlasting
Speaker 1: relationship with Jesus, and Hell is shorthand for meeting Jesus
Speaker 1: not as lover and law but as judge.
Speaker 2: Like that.
Speaker 1: Actually it's a it's a deeply coherent way of understanding things,
Speaker 1: and it only it only doesn't make sense if you
Speaker 1: don't realize quite who Jesus is. Like if you don't
Speaker 1: understand the I mean, none of us are ever going
Speaker 1: to fully understand this, but if you don't have any
Speaker 1: sense of the sheer divinity of Christ, I'm working on
Speaker 1: a commentary on Colossians at the moment. I've just this
Speaker 1: morning been instead of revisiting its extraordinary passage where Paul
Speaker 1: is claiming that Jesus is the one who is the
Speaker 1: image of the invisible God, the one through whom all
Speaker 1: things were made, the one who has authority of every
Speaker 1: parent dominion, like the one who there is nothing in
Speaker 1: all of creation, visible or invisible that Jesus didn't create
Speaker 1: in the first place and doesn't kind of rule over. Yes,
Speaker 1: And once we recognize that that same son of God
Speaker 1: is also Jesus of Nazareth, who died on a cross
Speaker 1: and welcomes us into life with it, once we kind
Speaker 1: of can put those two things together, it starts to
Speaker 1: make more sense that, Okay, the one who made the
Speaker 1: universe in the first place, including all of us, is
Speaker 1: also the one who makes the new heavens and the
Speaker 1: new Earth. And if we are in him, that's where
Speaker 1: we're headed. Yes, but if we reject him, why would
Speaker 1: we expect to live with him? Forever, like we've almost
Speaker 1: it's precisely what we've asked for, is being cut off
Speaker 1: from Him if we've rejected that invitation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we're born into this world with homeless
Speaker 2: and homesick hearts, and there are only two ways of
Speaker 2: being in this world. You can remain homeless, or you
Speaker 2: can enter into home with God in Christ. That's it.
Speaker 2: There's not a third option. There are a lot of
Speaker 2: other things that we will try, and our hearts are
Speaker 2: kind of just scattered with these little like hooks on them,
Speaker 2: and they're very tempted to buy into other promises of
Speaker 2: the welcome and the feast of other homes, and none
Speaker 2: of them end up delivering. And so we can either
Speaker 2: be in Christ or we can be outside of Him.
Speaker 2: We can either be in at Him or we can
Speaker 2: be in Christ. We can be at home with God,
Speaker 2: or we can be stuck in homeless hearts forever. But
Speaker 2: that's it. There's not another option. It's those two ways
Speaker 2: of living in God's world, and whichever way we are
Speaker 2: left living is the way that we will live forever.
Speaker 2: And God is inviting us now to life with Him
Speaker 2: in Christ. And and I think that's for me. This
Speaker 2: has really struck me as a more biblical, a more theological,
Speaker 2: a more practical, honestly, a more humanizing and Gosha, just
Speaker 2: a more delightful way of living out the Christian story.
Speaker 2: Because I think again, like I said at the very
Speaker 2: top of this episode, like beginning to end the Bible
Speaker 2: as a story of God saying, out of my delighting love,
Speaker 2: I want to dwell with my people forever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a perfect point for us to end. Kyle.
Speaker 1: You guys can grab a copy or pre order a
Speaker 1: coffee copy. You can pre order a coffee from your
Speaker 1: local can.
Speaker 2: You could do that coffee shop.
Speaker 1: You also pre order a copy of Kyle's new book,
Speaker 1: Home with God, A Union with Christ, which comes out
Speaker 1: you said in early twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: It comes out in February January of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: January February twenty twenty five. Fantastic, So you can get
Speaker 1: pre ordering that now. I'm certainly going to be wanting
Speaker 1: to read that myself. I feel like Union with Christ
Speaker 1: is a teaching that I am only starting to vaguely
Speaker 1: get my fingers around and want to inhabit more myself.
Speaker 1: So thank you brother for joining me. Today.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Rebecca.
Speaker 1: You guys been listening to The Confunding Christianity podcast. Can
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter, slash x, or Instagram. You can
Speaker 1: leave a review on iTunes. I have never been able
Speaker 1: to come up with as delightful a close for our
Speaker 1: episodes as Kyle used to have, so whenever I have
Speaker 1: Carl on the show, I want him to end for us.
Speaker 2: So take it away, brother, Absolutely well. We hope you
Speaker 2: enjoyed the discussion. Grace and peace,