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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. Thousands of Americans have been convicted and sentenced
Speaker 6: to death for crimes they never committed. Some have even
Speaker 6: been executed despite their innocence. The Deprived is a true
Speaker 6: crime book that tells the stories of Americans who have
Speaker 6: been sent to death row simply because they were at
Speaker 6: the wrong place at the wrong time. The book looks
Speaker 6: into the murder cases, investigations, and trials that puts them
Speaker 6: on death row and describes what life is like when
Speaker 6: you're exonerated after decades in the death house. The Deprived
Speaker 6: also focuses on those most likely to be wrongfully convicted
Speaker 6: in America and the reasons why. The book that we're
Speaker 6: featuring this evening is The Deprived. Innocent on Death Row
Speaker 6: with my special guest, journalist and author Stephan Howell. Welcome
Speaker 6: to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 6: Stephan Howell, thank you very much, thank you for having me.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for this Before we get right
Speaker 6: into these incredible examples of those that were. As you
Speaker 6: write The Deprived, what tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: your background and how you came to want to write
Speaker 6: this book The Deprived.
Speaker 4: My background is said, I'm educated as a journalist in Denmark,
Speaker 4: and all through my career I have been looking into
Speaker 4: topics that I personally have found how should I put
Speaker 4: it too cruel to be real? I started out by
Speaker 4: looking into human trafficking in the Balkans right after the
Speaker 4: Civil War, and how human traffickers they brought young people
Speaker 4: into Europe, forcing them, for instance, into prostitution and so on.
Speaker 4: And I was by then a very young journalist in
Speaker 4: my early twenties, and I felt so sad and sorrow
Speaker 4: for these people that I met that was trafficked into Europe.
Speaker 4: And from that moment I knew that if I was
Speaker 4: going to do any good as a journalist, I wouldn't
Speaker 4: be writing about problems occurring outside my every day window.
Speaker 4: I would need to dig a bit deeper and look
Speaker 4: into some of these topics that a lot of people
Speaker 4: they don't know anything about, and that journalists normally don't
Speaker 4: dig into for many reasons, perhaps because it's too risky
Speaker 4: concerning their own personal life, but also because it's difficult
Speaker 4: getting underneath the surface. And when I later in my
Speaker 4: career red stories about these innocent people that was put
Speaker 4: in prisons and worst case, on death row, I knew
Speaker 4: that I had to look into this serious matter as well,
Speaker 4: also because I had a personal stake in it. When
Speaker 4: I was seventeen years old, I was walking down the
Speaker 4: street one night in my hometown here in Denmark, and
Speaker 4: I witnessed a young man that was being brutally attacked
Speaker 4: and stepped to death by a group of fogs. And
Speaker 4: I reacted to this crime naturally. I feared for my
Speaker 4: own life and for many years to come, I was
Speaker 4: scared to leave my parents' house, and it really did
Speaker 4: a number on me, so to speak. And I reacted
Speaker 4: to this fear in an emotional way by trying to
Speaker 4: avoid it in the way that I demanded that the
Speaker 4: people who have put this feary within me that they
Speaker 4: suffered the same as a victim. So despite the fact
Speaker 4: that I come from a country that does not have
Speaker 4: death penalty and has not used death penalty for almost
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty years, to me, my natural reaction
Speaker 4: was actually been in favor of the death penancy until
Speaker 4: I came across some of these stories that I have
Speaker 4: now put into the book The Deprived.
Speaker 6: Let's start with some of these dramatic stories and dramatic examples.
Speaker 6: You start with a gentleman named Nick Yeris and born
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty one, convicted in nineteen eighty two, and
Speaker 6: exonerated in two thousand and three. Take us back as
Speaker 6: you do, to Sunset Boulevard, West Hollywood, and or pardon me,
Speaker 6: take it to the Tri State Mall in Delaware, near Pennsylvania,
Speaker 6: and Linda may Craig tell us what happens to Linda
Speaker 6: may Craig and how Nick Yaris gets all involved in this.
Speaker 4: It was a young lady. She was going back late
Speaker 4: night from from her shift at the mall where she
Speaker 4: was working, and as she was trying to take off
Speaker 4: in her car, she was abducted, driven to a nearby
Speaker 4: side that was vacant, and she was brutally raped and
Speaker 4: afterwards killed. And a few days later after disappearance, two
Speaker 4: young guys found her. And to begin with, they thought
Speaker 4: it was a mannequin that they had found, but it
Speaker 4: turned out to be this young mother of two kids.
Speaker 4: And the connection to nik Yaris is that he was
Speaker 4: actually in prison when he read an article about this
Speaker 4: brutal kidnapping and murder, and he thought that it was
Speaker 4: his way out of a possible sentence of the crime
Speaker 4: that in the first place put him in the jail.
Speaker 4: So he actually sold investigators that he knew who had
Speaker 4: committed the crime, and from the article that he was
Speaker 4: reading in the paper, he had a lot of details.
Speaker 4: So what he did was he sounded very persuasive when
Speaker 4: he actually voluntarily told investigators what had happened. It turned
Speaker 4: out that the man that he named as the killer
Speaker 4: was actually alive. Nick Yards didn't expect him to be
Speaker 4: because he had been told that he had odeed a
Speaker 4: few weeks earlier. But it turned out that it was
Speaker 4: not this guy that had adeed, it was his brother.
Speaker 4: So in all of a sudden, investigators actually had a
Speaker 4: guy that they could confront with this crime that neck
Speaker 4: Yards claimed to be aware of. When they confronted the guy,
Speaker 4: he had a solid alibi. So investigators actually turned it
Speaker 4: around and they said, well, mister Yaris, since you know
Speaker 4: so much about this crime, even down to the details,
Speaker 4: well you got to be the killer. And he was
Speaker 4: put on the stand and actually sentenced to death.
Speaker 6: You talk about his mother at trial, and the most
Speaker 6: haunting thing of all was his mother's reaction at trial.
Speaker 6: And then tell us what happens afterwards, his demeanor, what
Speaker 6: does he resolve to do? What gets done on his behalf?
Speaker 4: As Nick told me during my materile interviews with him,
Speaker 4: one of the worst things that actually happened to him
Speaker 4: was listening to his mom breaking down as he had
Speaker 4: his sentence read. He would never for the twenty two
Speaker 4: years he spent on death row, forget the sound of
Speaker 4: her tears and and and that was one of the
Speaker 4: worst things that he experienced, as he says today. But
Speaker 4: reality is when he went to one of the most
Speaker 4: should we call it them in famous prisons in America,
Speaker 4: Huntingdon in Pennsylvania, the first thing he experienced was actually
Speaker 4: being met by a bunch of gods and they beated
Speaker 4: him up as severe as they could because that was
Speaker 4: their way of welcoming a prisoner to Huntingdon. But this
Speaker 4: was only the first of many brutal encounters that Nick
Speaker 4: had with gods and that he had with the other
Speaker 4: inmate inmates. One of the things that took place in
Speaker 4: the prison, according to Nick, was a gladiator school or
Speaker 4: gladiator ring as the prison guards called it. Almost daily
Speaker 4: they would force inmates to meet each other in the
Speaker 4: cell where the fight would result. Always would one guy,
Speaker 4: you know, lying unconscious on the floor, and it didn't
Speaker 4: matter if it was your best friend that they let in.
Speaker 4: One way or another, someone was going to end up
Speaker 4: on the floor unconscious because that was the only way
Speaker 4: that these guards they could actually resolve the bets that
Speaker 4: they made on who was actually going to get out
Speaker 4: of the ring alive or or at least walking. And
Speaker 4: one of the things that really surprised me when I
Speaker 4: met Nick Yaris in a restaurant on Sunset Boulevard in
Speaker 4: Los Angeles was that I had been told a bit
Speaker 4: about the experiences that he had in prison and how
Speaker 4: brutal it had been, And when I met him in
Speaker 4: the restaurant, I expected to see either a man crawling
Speaker 4: around along the wall because I imagined him to be broken,
Speaker 4: or the opposite, a cruel monster that had become as
Speaker 4: evil as he was accused of being wrongfully on trial.
Speaker 4: But he turned out to be something completely different, a
Speaker 4: very humble, kind and insulgent man, because one of the
Speaker 4: things that he did while spending all these twin two
Speaker 4: years in prison was actually educating himself. He read thousands
Speaker 4: of books, and as he could see he was drifting
Speaker 4: into becoming this ego man, he decided to change himself.
Speaker 4: He even changed the way that he spoke. He softened
Speaker 4: his voice, trying to avoid becoming something that was perhaps
Speaker 4: not something that he was actually perhaps not able to
Speaker 4: avoid becoming. But he did. And it surprised me very
Speaker 4: much when I met him that there was actually sitting
Speaker 4: this guy opposite me, eating his French toest and being
Speaker 4: kind and attensive, asking about my life, and speaking in
Speaker 4: an emotional way about his life after being released, despite
Speaker 4: the fact that all the emotions that he more or
Speaker 4: less experienced from other ones till his release was evil
Speaker 4: and cruel.
Speaker 6: You talk about his tenacity, you know, the ability for
Speaker 6: him to keep hopeful despite all kinds of setbacks and
Speaker 6: the brutal treatment as well as he's receiving in prison.
Speaker 6: But you talked about that one day he got a
Speaker 6: revelation and found out about DNA. He had some setbacks
Speaker 6: with that. Tell us what happened regarding the DNA eventually
Speaker 6: people were on his side. A clerk found some material
Speaker 6: after a DNA test had failed before tell us what
Speaker 6: happens with Nick Yaris finally, and how DNA was instrumental
Speaker 6: in that.
Speaker 4: As many of these says throw in me. Nick tried
Speaker 4: again and again and again, having authorit his looking into
Speaker 4: DNA evidence because it was there, But when he was
Speaker 4: convicted in eighty two, no one gave much about DNA,
Speaker 4: so over the years it actually turned in to be
Speaker 4: a solid evidence. But despite the fact that it was
Speaker 4: still there and it actually could set him free, it
Speaker 4: was not till he asked the governor of Pennsylvania to
Speaker 4: execute him that they actually looked into it. He had
Speaker 4: this man for twenty two years. He'd been trying to
Speaker 4: prove his innocence. He had tried again and again and
Speaker 4: again to have law enforcement looking in true evidence that
Speaker 4: could prove his innocence, and then in all of a
Speaker 4: sudden he gave up. The governor for this is too
Speaker 4: strange to true, But naturally, if there is a guy
Speaker 4: on death row who asks to be executed, then I
Speaker 4: will fulfill his wish wish and he actually accepted doing so,
Speaker 4: but not until all evidence had been thoroughly investigated one
Speaker 4: more time, and this time by the use of DNA,
Speaker 4: and when they came back with the results, there was
Speaker 4: no doubt Nickieris had never kidnapped, raped, and murdered this woman.
Speaker 4: And after twenty two years on death row, he was
Speaker 4: set free and it was time for him to restore
Speaker 4: life as possible as it is when you spent more
Speaker 4: than two decades on death row.
Speaker 6: You talk about compensation as well in this book, and
Speaker 6: examples of that lack of compensation in the fight for
Speaker 6: proper compensation amid all the other effects of somebody being
Speaker 6: locked up lawfully or wrongfully for so many years. You
Speaker 6: talk about the toll that it had on his mother
Speaker 6: that could never forget her cry at court. How much
Speaker 6: of how long did they get to be together after
Speaker 6: his release?
Speaker 4: Unfortunately not that many years, to be honest, I don't
Speaker 4: remember the exact number of years, but she passed away
Speaker 4: and after his release he moved in with his parents,
Speaker 4: who was actually living there with the basement, and he
Speaker 4: promised his parents that for the rest of his life
Speaker 4: he was actually going to make something good of it,
Speaker 4: because way too much had always been wasted, had already
Speaker 4: been wasted, and from that moment he was released and
Speaker 4: move back with his parents. He decided that he was
Speaker 4: going to be as kind as as days long, and
Speaker 4: he had things up with his parents, and and and
Speaker 4: and tried to make up for the time launt. But
Speaker 4: both his parents were were up there in in in
Speaker 4: in the ages, and and and therefore they passed away
Speaker 4: a few years after he was being after he had
Speaker 4: been released. But in the Yard's case, as he has
Speaker 4: also publicly told about, it has been hard for parts
Speaker 4: of his family actually to accept that the relative they
Speaker 4: fought was cold blood a killer suddenly turned out to
Speaker 4: be innocent after twenty two years. And I have, over
Speaker 4: the years working on this book, interviewed a lot of
Speaker 4: people who have been exonerated, not just from death row,
Speaker 4: and a common thing for many of them is that
Speaker 4: it is actually difficult for the surrounding society to believe
Speaker 4: that they're actually innocent, because in the first place, it
Speaker 4: is a very difficult and cruel thing turning your heart
Speaker 4: and head around and believing that the son, the brother,
Speaker 4: the cousin, your best friend was actually not who you
Speaker 4: believed them to be in the first place. No, in
Speaker 4: all of a sudden they were convicted of the most
Speaker 4: senious crimes. Then some years later you're told, well, your
Speaker 4: brother was actually innocent. That makes a lot of these
Speaker 4: relatives feel probably guilty that they suspected the loved ones
Speaker 4: of actually being these killers. But what is more difficult
Speaker 4: for some of them is actually to admit that they
Speaker 4: were the ones wrong when they wrongfully convicted the brothers,
Speaker 4: the sons, the loved ones, And therefore they continue to
Speaker 4: perhaps hate or at least turn their back on these
Speaker 4: ex honaries. And that was also what Niger's experience from
Speaker 4: parts of his family when he was released. He patched
Speaker 4: things up with his parents, but some of his closest
Speaker 4: relatives they actually did not accept that this man was
Speaker 4: not who whom they had fought him he was for
Speaker 4: twenty two years.
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Speaker 6: You cite the Michigan Innocence Clinic and they identify six
Speaker 6: reasons that lead to wrongful convictions. Eyewitness misidentification biggest single cause.
Speaker 6: You cite eyewitness testimony contaminated by news reports and time
Speaker 6: and forensic methods and experts without proper scientific basis for
Speaker 6: their findings. And now we'll go to an example that
Speaker 6: you have another dramatic example in your book. To deprive
Speaker 6: a false concessions is also a very big reason and
Speaker 6: use include the case of Damon Thebideaux. Tell us about
Speaker 6: Damon Thebideaux and this incredible innocent guy that got all
Speaker 6: caught up in this and it is a dramatic example.
Speaker 6: Tell us about this.
Speaker 4: Damon had a very difficult upbringing, was sexually abused and
Speaker 4: violated in many ways by people very close to him
Speaker 4: from a very very early age, and it resulted in
Speaker 4: him dropping out of high school and instead he drifted.
Speaker 4: He was living outside of New Orleans, but went to
Speaker 4: Texas and spent some time there. And I think that
Speaker 4: he was rootless in the way that he didn't know
Speaker 4: as a young man what he was going to do
Speaker 4: with his life. He was seventeen years old when he
Speaker 4: had his son, but he didn't see his son because
Speaker 4: he was in a stage of life where responsibility and
Speaker 4: actually having a normal everyday life was not something that
Speaker 4: he was taught to have by the upbringing that he had.
Speaker 4: But in his early twenties, twenty one years old. She
Speaker 4: decided to go back to be close to his family,
Speaker 4: and for the first time in life, things were actually
Speaker 4: going in the right directions for him, and he was
Speaker 4: very happy to be back with his family until one afternoon.
Speaker 4: He had been spending the afternoon with one of his relatives,
Speaker 4: actually a couple of them, and his cousin's sister, sorry,
Speaker 4: his cousin's daughter. They had been roller skating through the afternoon,
Speaker 4: but because of the summer heat, they decided to go
Speaker 4: back and have a few cold drinks. But then this
Speaker 4: seventeen year old girl, she was not only thirsty, she
Speaker 4: was hungry as well, and she asked Damon if he
Speaker 4: could take her to a nearby mall so she could
Speaker 4: get something to eat. And Damon us was tired, so
Speaker 4: he said no, sorry, you have to go on your own.
Speaker 4: And since he said those words, he has regretted them
Speaker 4: because this young girl she never came back. Some time
Speaker 4: between when she left her home and and and got
Speaker 4: to the Moon, she was abducted and taken to a
Speaker 4: remote area where she was choked to death, and Damon
Speaker 4: participated in the search for her in the hours to come,
Speaker 4: and by the end of the night, he went back home,
Speaker 4: and and and and he wanted to rest up before
Speaker 4: going to participate in in the search one more time,
Speaker 4: and two investigators they came and knocking on the door.
Speaker 4: In the first place, they didn't suspect him of involved
Speaker 4: in the crime. They just had a few questions to
Speaker 4: ask him. But as they were there searching for this
Speaker 4: missing person, it became a homicide case because dispatcher told
Speaker 4: them that the girl had been found dead, and immediately
Speaker 4: they suspected Damon because he was one of the last
Speaker 4: ones to see her in the afternoon. They brought her down.
Speaker 4: They brought him down to the station, and they interrogated
Speaker 4: him for a total of thirty six hours. And within
Speaker 4: these thirty six hours he only had a few hours
Speaker 4: of rest. He almost didn't have anything to eat or drink,
Speaker 4: and when they were done with him, he was so
Speaker 4: eager to get out of that room that he would
Speaker 4: confess to anything. He was a twenty one year old man,
Speaker 4: remembered the background that he had. It had never been
Speaker 4: a solid, calm background as many other teenagers have, so
Speaker 4: he was actually not in a very stable place in life.
Speaker 4: So he didn't have the force and perhaps the coolness
Speaker 4: that it would take to resist given this confession after
Speaker 4: being as he says, mentally beaten and terrorized for for
Speaker 4: for for thirty six hours, and and and you know,
Speaker 4: by the end of the day he confessed, and the
Speaker 4: minute that he confessed, he passed out shortly after he
Speaker 4: woke up in in in prison, and he knew that
Speaker 4: this confession that he had given could never be taken back.
Speaker 4: And and the pride was spending fifteen years on death
Speaker 4: row because he simply could not take anymore after thirty
Speaker 4: six hours.
Speaker 6: You talk about what complicates this story is not just
Speaker 6: people's ideas that well, a person wasn't innocent, they wouldn't confess,
Speaker 6: but the details in this very detailed confession. Prosecutor took
Speaker 6: what the police had, What did the prosecutor see, and
Speaker 6: what the prosecutor should have done with that evidence?
Speaker 4: What they saw was something that reality did not see.
Speaker 4: They suspect that in the first place, what Damon was
Speaker 4: confessing too was also what they were going to build
Speaker 4: the case on, and so they did. They didn't build
Speaker 4: the case on was actually that all the things that
Speaker 4: Damon said and told as facts of his crime did
Speaker 4: not match up with reality. So all the forensics that
Speaker 4: they had back, the prosecutor could have cleared Damon right
Speaker 4: away because the confession he gave about how he had
Speaker 4: violated this young girl had nothing to do with what
Speaker 4: science proved. But they were so eager, probably to convict
Speaker 4: the man of the crime. And if they even had
Speaker 4: someone being stupid enough to confess into it, well then
Speaker 4: let's go ahead with it. That seems to be how
Speaker 4: prosecution reacted to the fact of reality that the confession
Speaker 4: did not match with what investigators found on the crime scene.
Speaker 4: So he should have had a slap on his wrist
Speaker 4: for given a false confession, and then they should have
Speaker 4: gone and actually searched for the real killer, who has
Speaker 4: never been found. But instead they seemed so eager to
Speaker 4: just solve this case that they were putting an innocent
Speaker 4: man on death row despite the fact that they knew
Speaker 4: he could never have committed to the crime. And that
Speaker 4: is not only something that goes for Damon's case. Again
Speaker 4: and again and again, people have been put in prison
Speaker 4: and worst case, on death row despite the fact that
Speaker 4: law enforcement knows that they were actually not lucking the
Speaker 4: true killer up behind boss. And in my book, you'll
Speaker 4: find more examples of prosecute prosecution acting against what they
Speaker 4: actually know to be true.
Speaker 6: You talk about too that how these people and many
Speaker 6: examples about of course these people losing hope and then
Speaker 6: some glimmer of hope comes and others again like reconfigure
Speaker 6: their life to adjust and to make a better life
Speaker 6: for themselves. And you talk about Damon's son. Josh was
Speaker 6: four years old. He was sentenced, and he had just
Speaker 6: gotten in touch with the child to try to build
Speaker 6: a relationship. So what does Damon do in prison regarding
Speaker 6: his son and what's the effect for him?
Speaker 4: One thing, he didn't only lose his freedom and innocence,
Speaker 4: he also lost access to to this four year old son.
Speaker 4: And Damon actually refused to see his son while in
Speaker 4: prison because he could not have his son seeing him
Speaker 4: as a man in shackles, so to speak. He could
Speaker 4: not see having his son seeing him in a jumpsuit.
Speaker 4: He could not having his son believing that perhaps my
Speaker 4: dad was actually the killer that he was falsely accused
Speaker 4: of being. So Damon decided not to see his son
Speaker 4: till he was released from prison. That is, even after
Speaker 4: his son sent him a letter saying that so fine
Speaker 4: life I haven't gotten to known you because it has
Speaker 4: not been a possibility. But I would actually like to
Speaker 4: come in and vissit you in prison, and I'm not
Speaker 4: so sure about what they say you have done is
Speaker 4: also true. So please invite me into your life, even
Speaker 4: though it's behind bars. And still Damon refused. And when
Speaker 4: his son turned fourteen, Damon sent him a postcard, and
Speaker 4: he signed the postcard not with his title dad, but
Speaker 4: with his name Damon, simply because he thought that he
Speaker 4: didn't deserve the title dad. He had never been there
Speaker 4: for his son when he was having his first day
Speaker 4: at school, when he was getting into two troubles for
Speaker 4: the first time, and so on. He never was there
Speaker 4: for his son as dad's normally wished to be, and
Speaker 4: and and and he didn't take any staking the way
Speaker 4: that that he was. His son had turned out to
Speaker 4: be actually a very good, loving boy because it had
Speaker 4: never been under his influence. So his attachment to his
Speaker 4: son was that naturally he loved him, but he was
Speaker 4: not going to go and claim to be his love
Speaker 4: and dad because he had been deprived of being that
Speaker 4: after his release, just his son was actually waiting by
Speaker 4: the and what they didn't have together for fifteen years,
Speaker 4: they started working on that moment that he was released,
Speaker 4: and thank god, they actually have restored their relationship and
Speaker 4: all the way through just was one of the reasons
Speaker 4: why Damon kept fighting. He kept fighting to prove his innocence.
Speaker 4: He kept fighting for the fact that these thirty six
Speaker 4: hours in an interrogation room was not going to be
Speaker 4: the reason why he eventually would lose life in prison.
Speaker 4: And he all the ways did that with his son
Speaker 4: in mind and at heart. And after these fifteen years,
Speaker 4: they also had the possibility of finally getting to know
Speaker 4: each other in real life.
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Speaker 6: and enter true murder fifty Stefan. You include some details
Speaker 6: along the way with these incredible dramatic examples of wrongful
Speaker 6: convictions and death row tragedies, people on death row and
Speaker 6: all the people affected by these wrongful convictions. Tell us
Speaker 6: about you talk about Damon being the three hundredth prisoner
Speaker 6: in US exoner as a result of DNA. Give us
Speaker 6: a little bit of the statistics on some of those
Speaker 6: as you as you talk about some of the people
Speaker 6: that have been executed, just talk about some of those
Speaker 6: details that you include here, incredible details about the death penalty,
Speaker 6: and it's an execution in the US.
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Speaker 4: First of all, the numbers of Americans that have been
Speaker 4: executed over the last couple of hundred years, it's unbelievable
Speaker 4: because the number is actually more or less equal to
Speaker 4: some wars that have been formed through time, not the
Speaker 4: big walls, but a number of sixteen thousand Americans have
Speaker 4: been executed by their own people. To me, that's a
Speaker 4: lot of people. That's a lot of lives. And I
Speaker 4: think that's one thing that's even more amazing, if I
Speaker 4: may put it that way, and that is that these
Speaker 4: sixteen thousand people has always been executed with a majority
Speaker 4: of Americans saluting their deaths. And if you look at
Speaker 4: statistics today, though the number of people in favor of
Speaker 4: the death penalty has decreased dramatically, if you just go
Speaker 4: a few decades back, still roughly fifty five percent of
Speaker 4: Americans are in favor of killing their own people. To me,
Speaker 4: that is unbelievable. And especially if you compare the number
Speaker 4: of executions in America to other countries, then you'll have
Speaker 4: to compare to countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran Iraq,
Speaker 4: not countries like Germany, England and so on, not countries
Speaker 4: in the western world we compare to countries that we
Speaker 4: often see as not being in a human way just
Speaker 4: as civilized as we may be in the world world.
Speaker 4: But that is fact of reality, and you don't have
Speaker 4: to go that many years back to find huge numbers
Speaker 4: of Americans being executed. If you roughly go back the
Speaker 4: last three decades, you'll find almost fifteen hundred Americans executed
Speaker 4: since nineteen seventy three. That is still a lot of
Speaker 4: people because how many of these roughly fifteen hundred Americans
Speaker 4: have been innocent? Well, we know for a fact that
Speaker 4: till today, in the same period of time, one hundred
Speaker 4: and sixty four Americans have been exonerated from death row.
Speaker 4: So you know, it's almost like I want to ask,
Speaker 4: how many of these fifteen hundred people have then been
Speaker 4: innocent but not had the same luck of lawyer, students,
Speaker 4: organizations and so on hearing about the cases. How many
Speaker 4: of these fifteen hundred people have died alone knowing that
Speaker 4: they die for something that they never did. And I
Speaker 4: think you know that is those are cruel facts that
Speaker 4: these fifty five percent of Americans in favor of the
Speaker 4: death penalty have to take into consideration. And I started
Speaker 4: out about telling how I had been in favor of
Speaker 4: the death penalty as a young man, but today I
Speaker 4: simply can't be I admit it. I'm the kind of
Speaker 4: guy who thinks that if you did the crime, you
Speaker 4: should do the time, and going to prison for a
Speaker 4: heenious crime that should not be like a vacation in
Speaker 4: a hotel. No, you should feel the consequences of the
Speaker 4: evil and the harm that you've done to others. But
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that the only way of making brutal
Speaker 4: killers pay for the price is by putting them on
Speaker 4: death row. And in my opinion, you always have benefit
Speaker 4: of the doubt, and in this case, this benefit of
Speaker 4: the doubt must go to the innocent on death row.
Speaker 4: And instead the people that we know with certainty did
Speaker 4: the crimes on on death row, why not put them
Speaker 4: in prison for life. If it's without parole it takes
Speaker 4: to save innocent lives, well, then be it. But you
Speaker 4: cannot get a dead man out of the grave. You can,
Speaker 4: on the other hand, get an innocent man out of
Speaker 4: his cell if it turns out that he is one
Speaker 4: of these thousands and thousands of Americans that has already
Speaker 4: been acceonerted.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. I think one of the most dramatic stories in
Speaker 6: this book is of Sonya Sonny Jacob's death row for
Speaker 6: killing two police officers in Florida, convicted in nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: six and exonerated in nineteen ninety two. This isn't an
Speaker 6: incredible story tell us about Sonny Jacobs and the predicament
Speaker 6: she gets in with her husband and Walter Rhodes.
Speaker 4: Sonny was, as she says herself, a flower child, a
Speaker 4: hibbie that at the time of the of her conviction,
Speaker 4: she was the mother of two kids. One was around
Speaker 4: the age of ten and and and and she also
Speaker 4: had a baby that was I believe eight or ten
Speaker 4: months old. When the crime that she was convicted of hapn'ed,
Speaker 4: she went down to Florida. She was living in North
Speaker 4: Carolina when she had a call from her husband, Jesse.
Speaker 4: He'd been down in Florida working but things didn't work
Speaker 4: out the way that he had planned, so he asked
Speaker 4: her to come down with the kids and and take
Speaker 4: back home, giving him a ride. But when she got there,
Speaker 4: her car broke down and there was no way that
Speaker 4: they could afford fixing the car, so they agreed to
Speaker 4: letting a friend of Jesse's giving them a right upstate.
Speaker 4: And they never should have accepted Waldo Road's offer because
Speaker 4: during night they pulled over and they were resting when
Speaker 4: a police officer did a routine check on them and
Speaker 4: he could see that in the bottom of the car
Speaker 4: there was lying a gun between the legs of wal
Speaker 4: the Roads, and at the same time he got a
Speaker 4: message back from the dispatcher telling that wal the Roads
Speaker 4: was actually on her role and therefore naturally not allowed
Speaker 4: to have a gun. So the officer asked Walter Road
Speaker 4: to step out of the car together with him with
Speaker 4: Sunny's husband, Jesse, and when they stepped out, things escalated
Speaker 4: and the police officer was not the only one drawing
Speaker 4: his gun. Wald Roads did as well, and he ended
Speaker 4: up killing this police officer, but not only him. He
Speaker 4: was actually that night being escorted by a Canadian police
Speaker 4: officer who was there to visit him and see how
Speaker 4: the highway patrols were actually operating in Florida, but he
Speaker 4: lost his life as well. On that night, and right
Speaker 4: after hearing the shots, Sonny was naturally paralyzed when it happened.
Speaker 4: She was on the back seat, covered up in the blanket,
Speaker 4: probably lying next to her two small kids, but with
Speaker 4: these shots blasting through the night, her life changed dramatically.
Speaker 4: Uh and Walle the roads afterwards forced Sonny, her kids,
Speaker 4: and her husband Jesse into the police car and they
Speaker 4: took off, and as they were escaping, they also abducted
Speaker 4: another man using his car, and it was not till
Speaker 4: they came to a roadblock that while the roads was
Speaker 4: trying to avoid that the car was stopped and was
Speaker 4: stopped by the police opening fire on the getaway car,
Speaker 4: despite the fact that police officers knew.
Speaker 6: That in the car.
Speaker 4: There were two small kids and an older man, because
Speaker 4: as this older man was abducted and his car was taken,
Speaker 4: everything was seen and witnessed by his wife, so she
Speaker 4: was the one calling in that her husband had been
Speaker 4: kidnapped at gunpoint, and she could describe that he was
Speaker 4: not alone in the car. He was together with among others,
Speaker 4: two kids. But it seemed like the police in Florida
Speaker 4: were so keen on stubbing a cup killer that they
Speaker 4: didn't mind shooting into a car with kids. Thank God,
Speaker 4: the only one who was actually hit by these flying
Speaker 4: bullets was Walder Rhoades himself, but being an ex felon,
Speaker 4: he knew his way around the system. So what he
Speaker 4: did was immediately in hospital asking for a pleat bargain,
Speaker 4: and he ended up spending eighteen years in prison, while
Speaker 4: Sonny and her husband Jesse went to death row because
Speaker 4: he was the one who cut a deal claiming that
Speaker 4: Jesse was the guy who had killed these two cops.
Speaker 4: And the worst thing about this story is that though
Speaker 4: it was later proven that both Sonny and Jesse were
Speaker 4: innocent of the crimes, and Jesse was not there to
Speaker 4: experience being set free two years before he was proven innocent,
Speaker 4: the state of Florida actually managed to execute him, so
Speaker 4: he was a living proof of an innocent man ending
Speaker 4: up dead.
Speaker 6: You also include the horror, I mean, just to add
Speaker 6: to even more again even more dramatic, is that they
Speaker 6: have to kill him three times. He's lit on fire,
Speaker 6: virtually his hair and smoke come out of his ears.
Speaker 4: That to kill him three times, Yeah, and and and
Speaker 4: that's another fact of all these executions that has taken
Speaker 4: place through time. Executing a man is not an easy task,
Speaker 4: or at least it's not easy for the person being executed.
Speaker 4: So many of these executions has gone wrong. In this case,
Speaker 4: fire coming out of more or less is a nose
Speaker 4: of the person being executed. And in other cases the
Speaker 4: executions has prolonged for so long that inmates have even
Speaker 4: been offered to visit the toilet before coming back being
Speaker 4: attempted to being executed again. And a lot of these
Speaker 4: death row inmates that I've interviewed, they were not only
Speaker 4: fearing death. Perhaps those one thing they feared more than death,
Speaker 4: and that was the road that would lead them there,
Speaker 4: because they knew that there was a terrible possibility of
Speaker 4: them not going right away. And all these death row
Speaker 4: inmates they knew that being killed was painful because again
Speaker 4: and again and again they experienced the guy in the
Speaker 4: next cell being dragged out, strapped down and executed. And witnesses,
Speaker 4: often reporters, they would come out of the execution chamber
Speaker 4: telling about how these death row inmates had suffered not
Speaker 4: for ten minutes at times, for perhaps an hour before
Speaker 4: being killed. And it was not only report orders and
Speaker 4: law enforcement official witnessing this. At times, it would even
Speaker 4: be them mothers. So been executed is by no means
Speaker 4: an easy thing. To go through as many people would
Speaker 4: probably think. And some of the people that I've been
Speaker 4: talking to have also told that these physical executions are
Speaker 4: not a difficult, life haunting event for just the prisoners.
Speaker 4: It also is for the people witnessing it, and at
Speaker 4: times also for the people who are actually the ones
Speaker 4: that have at times volunteered or open shown to go
Speaker 4: through with these executions. Because one thing is when you
Speaker 4: sit by your desk or you're having coffee with your
Speaker 4: colleagues and you talk about what's going to happen, and
Speaker 4: you prepare yourself. But when you go home at night
Speaker 4: and you line the bed and you close your eyes,
Speaker 4: you have to live with the fact that you actually
Speaker 4: the guy of one of the guys who put this
Speaker 4: man to death. And and I guess that it's got
Speaker 4: to raise a lot of questions among also law enforcement officials.
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Speaker 6: Yes, when we talk about Sonny and we talk about
Speaker 6: the effect of this wrongful conviction and the people that
Speaker 6: helped her, but just the tragedy her parents that were
Speaker 6: because she lost their kids to foster care. Her parents
Speaker 6: were taking care of their children, they went on a vacation.
Speaker 6: They died in a plane crash, along with one hundred
Speaker 6: and forty three other people. Yeah, she was allowed to
Speaker 6: go to the funeral because she now wasn't on death row.
Speaker 6: Tell us about what they even did at the funeral
Speaker 6: regarding the coffins. I couldn't believe this, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. When they were put to rest, and as
Speaker 4: they were about to lower the coffins, Sonny, to her surprise,
Speaker 4: actually realized that they had been put in microphones underneath
Speaker 4: the coffins. So who would do this? She came to
Speaker 4: one conclusion that either it would be law enforcement actually
Speaker 4: expecting her to confess by her parents' consents to the crimes,
Speaker 4: or what was perhaps more likely, that it could be
Speaker 4: media's actually also wanting her last words to her parents
Speaker 4: at their graveside. And this just shows how cynical some
Speaker 4: people can be at the time in life where we
Speaker 4: as human beings are most vulnerable when we're saying goodbye
Speaker 4: to our parents. But still that is not enough for
Speaker 4: some people. Therefore they put microphones underneath the coffins.
Speaker 6: She managed to build her life, and you talk about
Speaker 6: some good news in this book about meeting a fellow
Speaker 6: exonerated man, Peter Pringle, and they fell in love in
Speaker 6: twenty and eleven. They were married in New York in
Speaker 6: the presence of celebrities like Susan Sarandon, a death penalty
Speaker 6: anti death penalty activist, and tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about this new role for Sonny Jacobs.
Speaker 10: After being accelerated, she started giving speeches against the death penalty,
Speaker 10: and one of these speeches took her to Ireland and
Speaker 10: she was given a speech in a pub.
Speaker 4: And on the first road there was sitting a guy.
Speaker 4: And it's very difficult for people listening to these speeches
Speaker 4: actually putting themselves on death row or actually understanding fully
Speaker 4: how a death row inmate or an exonary feels. But
Speaker 4: there was this guy who did because he turned out
Speaker 4: to have been wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death in
Speaker 4: Ireland for crime that he did not commit. And after
Speaker 4: the speech, he walked up to Sonny and over the
Speaker 4: months to come they developed a relationship, they fell in love,
Speaker 4: and then, as you said, they got married. And when
Speaker 4: I interviewed Sonny, she said something that almost took me
Speaker 4: off my feet. She said that life turned out beautiful
Speaker 4: despite what she has been going through and suffered, and
Speaker 4: it's because she has chosen to view the life that
Speaker 4: she was given after death row in prison in a positive,
Speaker 4: beautiful way, and she's doing that together with her husband Peter,
Speaker 4: and they try together to help other exonorees getting the
Speaker 4: same positive attitude towards life. But also have to say
Speaker 4: one of the remarkable things about my discoveries while interviewing
Speaker 4: these deferent inmates, and that is that many of them
Speaker 4: have become very spiritual. Many of them has actually become
Speaker 4: very religious. To some religion has been what has kept
Speaker 4: their hopes up. And it's not only Sonny who chosen
Speaker 4: to have a positive attitude towards life. We started out
Speaker 4: by talking about Nick Yaris and all the brutality that
Speaker 4: he witnessed and also the brutality that he exposed other
Speaker 4: prisoners to while incarcerated. He lives by as many of
Speaker 4: the others this every day for that they have to
Speaker 4: show the kindness to others that others could not show
Speaker 4: to them when they put them away from something that
Speaker 4: they didn't And one of the things that actually set
Speaker 4: me off with this book was I wanted to look
Speaker 4: into if it was only Nick Yaris being so positive
Speaker 4: towards other people, and if he was the old the
Speaker 4: one who actually were able to avoid becoming cynical and
Speaker 4: bitter in his life after death Row. But it goes
Speaker 4: for all the people that I've talked to that every
Speaker 4: day they try to make the most of their lives,
Speaker 4: but not only towards themselves, also towards others, And I
Speaker 4: think that is amazing. I think that one of the
Speaker 4: reasons why Sonny and and the rest of them are
Speaker 4: so positive is actually because they have had all chances
Speaker 4: in life in life of becoming hateful, but they have
Speaker 4: also tasted and realized what hate does to person. If
Speaker 4: you get out of bed every morning with the life
Speaker 4: that you have been given after death Row, deciding to
Speaker 4: be angry and hateful, well then perhaps that life you've
Speaker 4: been given is not worth living. But if you turn
Speaker 4: it around and you say what others could not do
Speaker 4: for me, and the kindness that they could not show me,
Speaker 4: if I can do that to them, then the life
Speaker 4: I've been given is a life worth living. And that
Speaker 4: is one of the things that have surprised me the
Speaker 4: most working with these people. It is their ability to
Speaker 4: be loving human beings despite having so much injustice and
Speaker 4: cruelty committed to them. And you know what it's like
Speaker 4: we all do when you hear stories like this, we
Speaker 4: say to ourselves, well, tomorrow, I'm gonna hog and kiss
Speaker 4: my kids a bit more, and I'm not gonna yell
Speaker 4: at my wife, and I'm gonna be a bit more
Speaker 4: positive when I get to work. Personally, I have to admit, well,
Speaker 4: normally doesn't last that long, perhaps an hour or so,
Speaker 4: and then you know, ah, why are all these toys
Speaker 4: lying around? And you know, I fall back, like perhaps
Speaker 4: most of us does. But these people, they actually manage
Speaker 4: to carry on with this positive attitude towards others, not
Speaker 4: just day by day, but year by year, and and
Speaker 4: and and I really think that they deserve a lot
Speaker 4: of credit for the life, for the way that they
Speaker 4: have turned their lives around. But having that said, that
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that life is easy for them, because most
Speaker 4: of them are actually leading lives where they are affected
Speaker 4: by the cruelty done to them a lot of aspects.
Speaker 4: When you interview at death Row Exonnaye, you'll often find
Speaker 4: you know, big musculous men who you would imagine to
Speaker 4: be very hardened, but all of them eventually break down
Speaker 4: and cry when they reallive not only what death Row
Speaker 4: did to themselves, but what death Rowe also did to
Speaker 4: their relatives. There's a story in the book about a
Speaker 4: man called Derek Jamison, and the chapter is called They
Speaker 4: Killed My Mom. And the reason why he chose to
Speaker 4: call the chapter this was because Derek is the most loving, sweet,
Speaker 4: kind guy that I've ever spoken to. Like many of
Speaker 4: the other ones, or like all the other ones, I
Speaker 4: should say, but despite the fact that he's, you know,
Speaker 4: a big, strong man that has seen a lot in life,
Speaker 4: every time I spoke to him, he broke down and
Speaker 4: he cried and and and and and he cried like
Speaker 4: sorry to say, but but you know, like a little baby.
Speaker 4: And naturally it was because and this is not meant
Speaker 4: in a negative way. On the other hand, I think
Speaker 4: that it is, you know, beautiful that a man that
Speaker 4: has seen what he has seen can actually be so
Speaker 4: in touch with his emotions as he is. But I thought,
Speaker 4: you know, that every time he cried was because he
Speaker 4: was reliving the experiences that he had on death Row
Speaker 4: and what had been done to him. But I got
Speaker 4: the feeling that what even made him cry harder and
Speaker 4: more than his own experiences were the experiences of his mom,
Speaker 4: because imagine what it is.
Speaker 6: Like for a mom.
Speaker 4: Having to live with the fact that her son is
Speaker 4: innocent but still on death row. And Derek his execution
Speaker 4: was scheduled six times, six times, and the last time
Speaker 4: execution was scheduled, he had to stay ninety minutes before
Speaker 4: they were actually going to kill him. Imagine if your
Speaker 4: mom or dad, or brother or sister or just eleven soul,
Speaker 4: imagine how you would react knowing that ninety minutes from
Speaker 4: now your son is going to die, and actually being
Speaker 4: that sold six times when his death his execution was scheduled,
Speaker 4: there were always two questions that law enforcement or a
Speaker 4: prison official asked him what he was going to have
Speaker 4: for his last meal and to whom they were going
Speaker 4: to send his body. So again, you know, I have
Speaker 4: to think about what it does to parents knowing that
Speaker 4: perhaps a week from now, a month from now, or
Speaker 4: just ninety minutes from now, you'll receive the coffin with
Speaker 4: the person that you love the most in the world.
Speaker 4: So all relatives are collateral damage of the death penalty.
Speaker 4: And and that is another thing that that should be
Speaker 4: taken into consideration when the leader of the free world
Speaker 4: executes its own people.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about the deprived innocent on death Row.
Speaker 6: It is truly a remarkable collection of very very powerful
Speaker 6: stories and incredible and shocking cases life on death Row. Also,
Speaker 6: what we for those that are listening to this interview,
Speaker 6: there is an incredible another incredible story too about Marietta Yager,
Speaker 6: mother of Susie Yager and the founder of Journey to Hope.
Speaker 6: And for those people that are going to be lucky
Speaker 6: enough to read this book, just another fascinating, incredible, hard
Speaker 6: to believe story, Just another dramatic demonstration of the kinds
Speaker 6: of stories that you've picked for the deprived. Stephan tell
Speaker 6: us tell the audience where they might find out more
Speaker 6: information about how to get this book and about your work.
Speaker 4: First of all, the book will be released on February fifteenth,
Speaker 4: and it will be available through all Majia online retailers
Speaker 4: around the world. And they can also when they look
Speaker 4: up the book, they can also actually go to my
Speaker 4: website where they can read parts of the book. And
Speaker 4: and my hope is that this is just one interview
Speaker 4: of many interviews to follow concerning this book, because I
Speaker 4: think it is such an important topic putting focus on.
Speaker 4: We really need to discuss if it's okay in twenty
Speaker 4: and nineteen continuing to kill your own citizens, And therefore
Speaker 4: hope that this book. My wish is that it will
Speaker 4: change the opinion of some of these people in favor
Speaker 4: of death penalty, and if it doesn't change the opinion,
Speaker 4: at least take a minute to think about what you're
Speaker 4: actually in favor of. And also that this book will
Speaker 4: lead to having students debating it. At least I really
Speaker 4: hope that young people will also read the book, because
Speaker 4: if our generations are not willing to abolish the death penalty,
Speaker 4: the generations to come have that possibility, and I hope
Speaker 4: this book will give them an insight to what has
Speaker 4: been a common thing for hundreds of years and therefore
Speaker 4: perhaps not something that we think too much about, or
Speaker 4: at least that something does not because it's there and
Speaker 4: it always has been. If this book can help them
Speaker 4: think about if it also should be there in the future,
Speaker 4: then I'm very grateful, and then I rest my.
Speaker 6: Case absolutely our congratulations on the deprived and hope to
Speaker 6: talk to you again real soon. Thank you very much
Speaker 6: for the deprived innocent on death Row. Thank you Stefan Howe,
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, thank good
Speaker 4: Night, Thank you very much, good night, good night.