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Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker, DTK 24 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.879 every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 25 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.079 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 26 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:44.040 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 27 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:49.280 In nineteen seventy four, Dennis Lynn Raider stocked and murdered 28 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.519 a family of four in Wichita, Kansas. Since adolescence, he 29 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.239 had read about serial killers and imagined becoming one. Soon 30 00:01:57.319 --> 00:01:59.640 after killing the family, he murdered a young woman and 31 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:04.120 then an until he had ten victims. He named himself BTK, 32 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.759 Bind Torture, Kill, and wrote notes that terrorized the city. 33 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:12.680 He remained on the loose for thirty years. No one knew. 34 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.080 No one who knew him guessed his dark secret. He 35 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:18.520 nearly got away with his crimes, but in two thousand 36 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.759 and four he began to play risky games with the police. 37 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:26.120 He made a mistake. When he was arrested. Raider's family, friends, 38 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.639 and coworkers were shocked to discover that BTK had been 39 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.479 among them, going to work, raising his children and acting normal. 40 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.000 This case stands out both for the brutal treatment of 41 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.919 victims and for the ordinary public face that Raider, a 42 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:45.599 church council president, had shown to the outside world through 43 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:50.599 jailhouse visits, telephone calls, and written correspondents. Katherine Ramsland worked 44 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.039 with Raider himself to analyze the layers of his psyche, 45 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.560 using his drawings, letters, interviews. In Raider's unique codes, she 46 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.960 presents in meticulous detail tale the childhood roots and development 47 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:05.719 of one man's motivation, the stock, torture, and kill. She 48 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:09.120 reveals aspects of the dark motivations of this most famous 49 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.319 of living serial killers that have never before been revealed. 50 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.719 The documentary BTK Confession of a Serial Killer premiers January 51 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.520 eighth and ninth on A and E. The two night 52 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.840 event sheds new light on Raider's double life as both 53 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:29.800 an upstanding citizen and a heartless killer. Doctor Katherine Ramslin, 54 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.319 the renowned professor of forensic psychology and author, leads the 55 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:37.360 examination of readers raiders transformation from an American boy to 56 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.560 an American monster who wreaked havoc in Wichita Candae and 57 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:47.439 went uncaptured for thirty years. With exclusive conversations with Raider himself, 58 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.439 eye opening new archival, comprehensive interviews and access to raiders 59 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.639 drawings and coded diaries, all paired with doctor Ramslin's expertise, 60 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.800 Viewers get to know the man behind them on the 61 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.360 truth behind the headline and a glimpse at the secrets 62 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.919 Raider is still holding on to. The documentary we are 63 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.719 discussing tonight is bt K Confession of a Serial Killer 64 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.639 with my special guest, journalist and author and professor, doctor 65 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:18.759 Katherine Ramsling. Welcome back to the program, and thank you 66 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.000 so much for this interview, Doctor Katherine Ramsling. 67 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:25.199 Always enjoy being here. Thanks for having me. 68 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.959 It's always a fantastic pleasure and a great thrill. Thank 69 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:33.279 you so much for this. Let's talk about the origins 70 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.600 of this documentary project, how it came about. Tell us 71 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:37.439 a little bit about that. 72 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.360 Well, started with the publication of the book, and then 73 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.319 we began to look for people who might be interested 74 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:50.720 in making it, you know, visual, and we had several takers. 75 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:53.600 We saw the option a couple of times, and then 76 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:58.319 the pandemic, So right the pandemic was a pretty big 77 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.360 interruption because we did have somebody was going to do it, 78 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.800 and then A and E decided that they wanted to 79 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:10.079 do it as a four part documentary, which that's pretty daunting, 80 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:12.959 and there was a lot of work involved, but in 81 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:18.000 the end, the director's vision and the vision of all 82 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:23.879 the production people really came through in terms of the 83 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:27.040 goal I had had for the book, and I thought 84 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.279 that was really quite an achievement because my goal is 85 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:34.399 kind of academic. I really wanted this to use what 86 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.240 a serial killer has to say about himself to benefit 87 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:43.079 law enforcement, criminal justice, and forensic psychology. So it wasn't 88 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:48.319 just a serial killer lathering on. It was formed for 89 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:54.920 a specific purpose and the documentary achieves that, which I'm 90 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:56.480 very pleased about it. 91 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:02.160 We're talking about the book that toenty and sixteen, and 92 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:07.399 that book is The Confession of a Serial Killer, The 93 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.800 Untold Story of Dennis Raider, the BTK Killer again released 94 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:16.399 in twenty sixteen, and the audiobook edition is going to 95 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.720 be from Blackstone Publishing. It will be released January eleventh. 96 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:23.199 So let's get to this very very important book and 97 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:28.600 very important project that you undertook with Dennis Raider. Tell 98 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.759 us a little bit about some of the people that 99 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.600 were including Jim Thompson, some of the people that were 100 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.040 involved in the very beginning of the book that you 101 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.879 say that wouldn't happened otherwise. 102 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.439 Well, right from the start, it wasn't even my book. 103 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.279 What had happened is Raider was arrested in two thousand 104 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.240 and five, and a woman whose code name we ended 105 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:55.000 up using, we called her True Grit, had decided to 106 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:58.240 write this book and contacted him and he agreed to 107 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.920 do it with her, and they had several years of correspondence, 108 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.439 and apparently she had decided she wasn't going to do 109 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.959 this book. It had been a lot more difficult for 110 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:12.120 her than she imagined it to be. She had been 111 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.240 under attack a lot from you know all because she 112 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.240 was kind of the gatekeeper for Raider. And I saw 113 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.680 her on Facebook and asked her whatever happened to her book, 114 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.040 because I had heard about her through news reports, And 115 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.639 she asked me if I would take it over, which 116 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.160 was not as simple as it sounds, because it was 117 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.160 an easy yes for me because I had already written 118 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.560 a book about how mental health experts over the past 119 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:43.399 century had spent a lot of time with extreme offenders 120 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:47.879 to learn about their development and their crimes and their attitudes, 121 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.759 et cetera. So I already had a template and it 122 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.879 was a great opportunity. But I needed to be approved 123 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:02.399 by this consortium of the victims family members. They're surviving 124 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:07.560 family members, because they wanted to have some control over 125 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.839 the kind of thing that would be put out there. 126 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:13.079 They didn't want anything out there, but certainly something was 127 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:15.720 going to be and they wanted some control over it 128 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.199 and as well as benefiting from it, which was fine 129 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.639 with me. So I wrote a proposal. I sent it 130 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:28.680 to the attorney Jim Thompson for the families and told 131 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.360 them what I wanted to do, and they did like 132 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.440 what I wanted to do. They liked my credentials, you know, 133 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:38.960 in the academic world in terms of teaching forensic psychology 134 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:43.039 and being very prominent in the research arena for serial 135 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.159 killers and mass murderers, so they liked all that. But 136 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:50.480 still it was a long drawn out process, and during 137 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.519 this time I also got to Narraider, who wasn't so 138 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:58.440 keen about transferring all this from the original person who 139 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.639 he really liked to someone he didn't know. So we 140 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.279 ended up playing chess, and he also wanted me to 141 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:11.960 solve a series of codes, in part because he liked 142 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.559 to communicate with codes because he thought of himself as 143 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:17.679 kind of a spy, and it was also a way 144 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.080 to keep prison guards from knowing what he was saying doing, 145 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.240 but also it was a test for me to see 146 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.840 what I play. But I play the code game, and 147 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.759 of course I will, because my interest in him was 148 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.039 the whole picture. Who is this guy, what motivates him? 149 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:40.080 How does he create these codes and respond to them? 150 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:44.600 And so fine. I mean, it was actually pretty intriguing 151 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.759 to be sent these weird codes to see if I 152 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.000 could figure them out. And I needed the other person, 153 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:55.639 true grit to help me, because he had sent part 154 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:57.960 to me in part to her, and you know, kind 155 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.240 of a zoniac thing. He'd get together and figure this out. 156 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.039 But for me, that was all behavior. I was interested 157 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:10.639 in everything that he would do, whether it was manipulating, lying, 158 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:13.840 telling the truth, whatever, it didn't matter. I wanted to 159 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.000 see all the layers. 160 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.399 In that as well. That you talk about these layers 161 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.200 that you wanted to see. What are some of the 162 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:29.919 things that he told you about, influence from other serial 163 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.639 killers and some of the fantasies that it seemed that 164 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:37.440 he shared with some of these role models. 165 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:40.600 Yeah, a lot of that came along the way we 166 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.679 worked for five years in this book. Initially, he of 167 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.759 course talked about what everybody knows that who's read anything 168 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.559 about him, that he had role models HH Holmes for 169 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:57.559 his torture castles, and Raider would put his torture fantasies 170 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.919 into a barn because he's from Kansas. And also Harvey Glatman, 171 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.279 who would bind his victims with ropes, because for Rader, 172 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:08.960 rope was a was a pretty significant fetish object in 173 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.960 his own fantasies. So those are the two that many 174 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.799 people are aware he uses role models. But along the way, 175 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:21.559 as we were talking and reading and looking at comparisons 176 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.440 to others, you know, he honed some of that, and 177 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.600 he got interested in some that he didn't know about before, 178 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.320 and talked more about some of the readings he had done, 179 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.879 and it was pretty clear that most of what he 180 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.720 did wasn't really original to him. He had gotten it 181 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:43.759 either out of true crime magazines or fiction. You've read 182 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.080 about what some serial killers had done in novels, and 183 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:50.159 so some of the things he was doing was trying 184 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:55.080 to replicate all of that. So he wasn't really that imaginative. 185 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.120 And you know, unfortunately in fiction and film we get 186 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:02.080 this notion of this master mind mentality, you know, the 187 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:06.840 great puppeteer manipulator, and most of that just isn't what 188 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.799 these serial killers are like, they're just out to achieve 189 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.559 their goals and get it the way they need to 190 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:20.720 get it. So he would find ideas in these various 191 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:22.480 sources and try them out. 192 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.919 He's used a lot of Again, he didn't make this 193 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:33.200 easy for you, and you had to collaborate with the 194 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:35.679 initial contact to be able to do any of this 195 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.080 and figure out a bunch of things. Because you mentioned 196 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.399 is trying to be clever, but you talk about him 197 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.879 talking about the victims and talking about the murders and 198 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.840 using expressions like going into the cookie jar and meals. 199 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:56.840 So explain that language that you deciphered. 200 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:02.039 That was probably one of the very first things that 201 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:06.200 he did was send me clippings from newspapers and magazines 202 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.639 with things circled, and then he would write a letter, 203 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.559 sometimes a twenty page letter. In his handwriting is pretty terrible, 204 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:18.440 and in he'dn bed in the letter along the way 205 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.399 the clues to what he had circled, So I had 206 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:26.840 to make my way through the letter and then look 207 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.919 back at the clippings and like For example, one of 208 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.519 the most puzzling to me was when he talked about 209 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:37.320 that my interest in recipes of the three layer kind 210 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.679 and I thought, well, I don't cook worthy talking about. 211 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.480 But then I realized as I saw what he circled 212 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.000 would have a B, a T, or a K. And 213 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.759 so I realized, oh, that's the that's the three layer thing. 214 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.639 And subsequently I learned about his magical number three. He 215 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.000 thinks the whole world is sort of organized around threes, 216 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:02.399 and that threes had somehow texted him, and so he 217 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.399 has this attunement to threes. So there was that, and 218 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:09.639 then there then he had some metaphors like castles and 219 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:14.279 trains and such things as that, but it became unwieldy. 220 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.559 I mean we would talk, we would be talking along about, 221 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:22.360 you know, using trains and canyons and passengers and whatnot, 222 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.559 as we were talking about whether this book was even 223 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:27.440 going to sell or not, because I did have a 224 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:31.679 lot of issues with that, and then we had to 225 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.480 I finally, when the book did sell, I decided I 226 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:37.840 would make the metaphor the codes that we would use. 227 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.440 So it's kind of an irony because he did not 228 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:46.200 want any woman kind of dominating him in any way. 229 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.360 That was that was one of his key issues, is 230 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.799 how females threw him off balance. And there I was 231 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.519 making the code, but I used threes, and I used 232 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:00.720 the cave and all the stuff that was appear to him. 233 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:04.279 And also he sometimes would forget what some of his 234 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:09.360 codes meant, so you know, so this way we had 235 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.279 a record, you know, that we could both refer to. 236 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.759 But in the end, the irony is that I framed 237 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:21.080 the book through my codes using when I knew would 238 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:22.679 be his preferential style. 239 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:28.519 Mm hm. You had already done with your book The 240 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:34.799 Mind of a Murderer, You already had extensive experience dealing 241 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.759 with extreme offenders. How did that help you in this 242 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:40.919 regard with BTK. 243 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.840 Well, the Mind of a Murderer is really looking at 244 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.600 what others had done, So I did. I wanted to 245 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:53.720 look at accounts not by detectives or journalists, but by 246 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:59.440 mental health experts to see how they had approached extreme offenders, 247 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.639 mass and serial killers. So that wasn't really my work, 248 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.840 although I've certainly approached other offenders, but not to this 249 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:13.440 degree and not to the degree that those professionals had done. 250 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.559 So they really gave me role models in terms of 251 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.960 the persistence, the kinds of things you had to put 252 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:28.120 up with the way to approach somebody who's very egotistical 253 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:32.759 or narcissistic, you know. And I also had trained. I 254 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.240 have one master's degree in clinical and psychology that has 255 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:42.879 a specific type of training of really bracketing your preconceptions 256 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.399 and your biases so that you can listen and let 257 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.879 that person's world be what it is, rather than you imposing, 258 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.679 you know, some theoretical perspective on them, but just listening 259 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:59.000 to them. So I already had really been solidly trained 260 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.039 in that approach, and that's certainly the one I used 261 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.240 with Rader and would use with anybody else. Is what 262 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.799 is your world? It doesn't matter if it corresponds to 263 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:16.640 reality or corresponds to morality. It matters that you yield 264 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:21.000 to me what your experience is, what your perspective is, 265 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.519 and how you came to be this way. So that's 266 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.680 I learned from looking to others as well as my 267 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:30.799 own training in clinical psychology. 268 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.079 Now, an important part of this is when you asked 269 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:40.440 him the crucial important question about his torture fantasies, how 270 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.799 did you approach that and how did you ensure that 271 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.319 you were going to get something accurate? 272 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.839 Oh, one of the things I did was to collect 273 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:54.880 what I knew from others. I knew that I was 274 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:58.240 already friends with the DA on that case, right, so 275 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.680 she wasn't keen about me doing this, but she was 276 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.359 won over, and she showed me her whole stash of stuff. 277 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:09.559 I saw the interrogation, the whole police interrogation notes, so 278 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.960 I had the way he presented himself to them. I 279 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:16.759 had letters from the first person, I had letters from 280 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:20.960 other people, so I had this multiple perspectives on him 281 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:24.680 in terms of the way, you know, he'd spend doctor 282 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.440 really everything for you know, whoever he was talking to. 283 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.799 So this way I had, you know, if he wanted 284 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.480 to talk about torturing animals, for example, I already knew 285 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.640 some things that I knew he didn't want to tell me, 286 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.759 so then I could call him out on it. But 287 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.200 I but I didn't call him out on it in 288 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.640 a confrontational way. I would simply say, oh, well, you 289 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.920 know you told them this, so you're telling me something 290 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.839 a little different. How how do you make sense of that? 291 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.400 And then and he'd sometimes get upset if we're on 292 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:05.039 the phone, But then he'd write a long letter justifying 293 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:09.799 everything it's said. And again, for me, that's behavior. It's 294 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:13.759 not necessarily that I'm after the truth because really, you 295 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.160 can look at any of us. We all form our 296 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:20.640 narratives to serve our purposes out of the system. So 297 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.279 I'm looking at how how does he approach being confronted? 298 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.559 How does he approach being told, well, I know that 299 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.640 you also tortured rabbits? 300 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:30.559 What was he going to do with that? 301 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.559 Since he didn't tell it to me, but I knew 302 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:37.200 about it, you know, so it really was. And again 303 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.799 you're looking at a very extended investment of time, which 304 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:46.880 very few people can do. And you know, psychologists they 305 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.680 charge and they don't. Nobody's paying them for this kind 306 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.160 of time. So you have to see this as an 307 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.799 opportunity the way I did, and be willing to take 308 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.079 the hit in terms of the investment of time and money. 309 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.240 And I was because as I really believe in this 310 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.359 kind of work. I think it's very valuable and beneficial. 311 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:09.079 It helps us to prevents us from seeing the serial 312 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:12.359 killers that is all collected under a profile. It's a 313 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.680 cookie cutter approach, and I think that's a mistake that 314 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:17.480 I'm hoping this book can rectify. 315 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:24.160 What did the late doctor al Carlyle contribute to this? 316 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.759 How did he help in what area? 317 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.359 Oh, Al Carlisle was so terrific, He's such a loss. 318 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.039 He had interviewed He was a Utah prison psychologist who 319 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.839 had interviewed Ted Bundy when Bundy was first picked up 320 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:44.039 on suspicion of burglary and then attempted abduction, and Carlisle 321 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.799 had gone to have been at the prison and he'd 322 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:49.519 given him a number of assessments. He wasn't the only one. 323 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.720 There was another psychologist or psychiatrist who put him through 324 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:58.799 a bunch of things. But Carlile's task was to decide 325 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.119 if Bundy might be a day if he were released, 326 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.680 and so he did a lot of work. He interviewed 327 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.559 a number of people knew Bundy and really again gave 328 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.039 us a very nice profile, or I mean not a profile, 329 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:16.359 but an approach to how do you look at someone 330 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.519 like this. You can't just go with what they say 331 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.279 because they're going to put themselves in the very best light. 332 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:25.559 And Bundy was a master at that. So Carlisle had 333 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:28.519 not just done this assessment of Bundy, but he also 334 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.200 had interviewed a few other serial killers while there, and 335 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.599 so he came up with this idea of how are 336 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.839 they able to pass as if they are like us 337 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.279 and yet have this very very dark, awful side to 338 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:46.440 them and then not have any remorse, et cetera. So, 339 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.240 because he had come up with this very interesting description 340 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:54.319 of a compartmentalized person, I asked him if I could 341 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:57.440 show this to Raider, as I want to see raiders 342 00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.319 response to it, because one of the things I was 343 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.599 trying to do get raided to not just say what 344 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:04.720 he knew, but to look at one of the people 345 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.799 had said and reflect on that in terms of how 346 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.359 it applied to him, and he worked hard at it. 347 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.200 I have to give him a lot of credit. When 348 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:20.759 he saw Carlisle's analysis of Bundy as being like an 349 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:24.319 actor taken on a lot of different roles, he said, yeah, 350 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:29.799 that's very very accurate. That really captures it. But then 351 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.279 he responded with what I thought was even more interesting 352 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.480 than what Al gave me, which was this idea of 353 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:44.319 cubing instead of compartmentalizing. Because when you think about like 354 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:49.319 compartments on a shelving unit, for example, as if they're 355 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:53.440 all distinctly different and almost unrelated to one another, it's 356 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.319 a bunch of different personalities, and similar to an actor, 357 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.440 they take on different roles, but those roles aren't related 358 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.680 to one another. There When later came up with his metaphor, 359 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:07.599 which is cubing, he it's the idea that all the 360 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.880 faces are there, but you only show one face at 361 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.680 a time in any given circumstance. So if you need 362 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.599 to be the good father or good husband or churchgoer, 363 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:20.599 you show that face and that. But but if you 364 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.440 see someone you want to stalk, you immediately can switch out. 365 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.160 Because all the faces are part of you, they are 366 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:31.839 all connected and associated to you. And because people like 367 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:37.039 Greater are not emotionally rooted in the notion of integrity 368 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.079 or truth or morality, they can make that switch very easily. 369 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.319 It's they're really mentally dexterous in terms of being able 370 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.480 to adopt a different persona for a different circumstance. So 371 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.839 to me, not only is you know, cubing easier to 372 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:59.359 spell than compartmentalizing, I think it gets at it better 373 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.440 And I kind of wish I could have talked with 374 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.279 Carlisle about that, but he of course has passed on, 375 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.279 and I think he would have really appreciated that metaphor 376 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:13.279 because I think it works very well. 377 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:20.240 When you talk to BTK Dennis Raider. He mentions this 378 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:26.000 mythical figure, this minutor, and he calls it the minutor. 379 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:33.839 Sense tell us more about this mythological symbol that he 380 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:35.200 uses to describe. 381 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.279 I think it's minotaur. 382 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:37.799 Okay, thank you. 383 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:39.960 I'm not sure, but you could be right. 384 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:40.960 You're probably right. 385 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.839 Yeah, the minotaur was a code name for serial killers. 386 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.960 So he'll talk about the Kansas Minotaur, or he'll read 387 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.079 about somebody like there was a guy in South Carolina 388 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.240 a couple of years ago who got called, and he'll 389 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.759 call him the South Carolina Minotaur. So that's just a 390 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.160 way to be able to write about this in letters 391 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:06.319 without guards confiscating it, you know, because I I've had 392 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.880 a few letters sent back to me by the prison. 393 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.039 You may not do this, you may not do that. 394 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.720 They have to always be careful about the whole contraband angle. 395 00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:19.559 And so I think he adopted that. But also he 396 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:22.839 had read about it in a novel and he liked 397 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.839 the image of that, of this of this beast that's 398 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:31.680 inside this maze, that's that's fed these innocent virgins, and 399 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:35.480 you know, he just he liked that to use to 400 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:38.720 describe what a serial killer was like. And then for him, 401 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.839