1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,119 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,920 I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by one of our 16 00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:51,759 very favorite legal eagles, Matt Murphy, prosecutor and author of 17 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,719 the Murder book. Matt, thank you for joining us. 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:57,119 Speaker 5: Happy to be here. 19 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: I was going to say prosecutor to the stars. Then 20 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,679 I was thinking, maybe that isn't a good thing. If 21 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:05,840 you're a star and you're prosecuated by Matt Murphy. 22 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, I did prosecute too many stars in the criminal world. 23 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,920 I had some rock stars, for sure, but I had 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,799 some famous ones, but they were definitely not movie stars. 25 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,599 Speaker 2: I liked one of our favorite le legals. That's a 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,359 good one too. 27 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 3: Absolutely, that was It was just occurring to me that 28 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,959 we do not have too terribly many friends on the 29 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,400 side of the bench. We tend to be more to 30 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,560 the forensic side. So we're so glad to have Matt 31 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:35,920 available to answer all of our questions because I certainly 32 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,519 don't have a good legal grounding. 33 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've certainly. I spent twenty six years as a 34 00:01:41,359 --> 00:01:44,040 DA for your listeners, and I spent seventeen years in 35 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,359 the homicide unit, and I've prosecuted. I've never had a 36 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:50,719 kidnapping quite this crazy with all the kids, but I've 37 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,239 done some pretty ruthless kidnapping prosecutions. So familiar with the 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,200 law in this area. And part of our job in 39 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,640 Orange County, of course, was we would attend the prole 40 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,920 hearings on any life, so they'd send us up. We'd 41 00:02:01,959 --> 00:02:04,040 go to the prison sit down with the BPT, the 42 00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:08,639 Board of Prison terms and go through the administrative process 43 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,039 with the inmate there, and yeah, hopefully I can shed 44 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,039 a little light on it for you. 45 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: I know from what we've read that child molesters and 46 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,639 pedophiles and folks like that are looked down upon in prison, 47 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,439 and sometimes even very hearts are tweeted by their fellow inmates. 48 00:02:26,039 --> 00:02:29,120 I think people forget the fact that criminals have families 49 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,240 and many examples too. Do you have any sense of 50 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,280 how the incarcerated community would view kidnappers. 51 00:02:37,319 --> 00:02:40,319 Speaker 5: It depends on the circumstances of the kidnapping. A kidnapper 52 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:44,120 who girl fashion kidnapping for ransom, that's a for example 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,719 Latin America, that is a cottage industry down there and 54 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,319 other places in the world. But if somebody kidnapped a 55 00:02:50,439 --> 00:02:53,000 child for the purposes of sexual abuse, that would be 56 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:56,400 a totally different ballgame. Somebody's doing it for money, they 57 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,919 call it gen pop or general population. If they were 58 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,080 in like a level three or level four prison like 59 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,360 we see on TV with the rows and the bars, 60 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,319 somebody who kidnapped like a businessman for ransom, they're going 61 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,479 to have to deal with all the normal prison politics, 62 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,599 but they're not going to be targeted for that. But 63 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,360 somebody who kidnaps a child, especially a child for sexual abuse. 64 00:03:18,199 --> 00:03:20,080 They're going to be what's known is a total set 65 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:25,039 or a total separation. Prison is a fascinating world because 66 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,599 it is a world unto itself, and they have rules, 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,240 and there's tons of politics, and the Vptier, the board 68 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,039 prison terms as well as the CDC, the California Department 69 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,159 of Corrections. They work very hard, believe it or not, 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,840 most of the time to make sure that they separate 71 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:47,319 and they classify inmates who are at risk of abuse, 72 00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:50,520 so it's not like in the movies where stop Monster 73 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:54,120 gets thrown in the yard, and because they would be 74 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:56,680 dead by the end of the day, they tend to 75 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,319 house them separately from regular inmates. They separate them from 76 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,280 gang members and professional criminals and the really bad guys 77 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,599 because they will have a target on their back. If 78 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:11,639 you're a child moluster, if you're a snitch, if you've 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,719 testified against other inmates, or if you're a police officer 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,959 or some way connected to law enforcement. Those they have 81 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,639 to be separated very early in the incarceration process otherwise 82 00:04:21,639 --> 00:04:24,079 they will be targeted for sure. So I hope that 83 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:24,920 answers the question. 84 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,759 Speaker 3: So, Matt, we wanted to have you on to talk 85 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,000 a little bit about these sort of nuances when it 86 00:04:31,079 --> 00:04:36,120 comes to sentencing four crimes like the Chachilla mass kidnapping. 87 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:39,399 One of the things that we were most flue mixed 88 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,319 by when we started doing research on the case is 89 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,160 that now all three of these kidnappers are out from 90 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:51,120 behind bars, out on parole, And it really made us 91 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,800 step back for a moment and ask ourselves why would 92 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,000 the men who hijacked a bus and buried twenty six 93 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:02,639 children and an adult underground ever be allowed to come 94 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,240 up for parole. So my first question for you is this, 95 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,800 are there mandatory sentencing guidelines for felonies such as kidnapping 96 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,519 or does the judge in the case have the right 97 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,560 to impose any sentence that they see fit. 98 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 5: So California does does sentencing ranges. Typically most felonies, they'll 99 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,079 be low, mid, or high term, depending on the case. 100 00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:28,079 Say it's like a generic childmass, for example, you can 101 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,519 do three, six or eight, So you can do up 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,360 to eight years because that's a serious violent felony. That's 103 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:36,639 probably going to be an eighty percent. Although the law 104 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,360 is constantly influx on these things, So the court typically 105 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:44,000 will have the option of low term, midterm, or high 106 00:05:44,079 --> 00:05:48,639 term on any felony. They'll be prescribed sentencing numbers for 107 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,680 whatever the case, whatever the crime is. But in virtually 108 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,759 all cases, the judge also has a probation option, So 109 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,839 the judge can always impose a term of probation where 110 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,879 they don't go to prison for the For violent felonies 111 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,160 like this, it's virtually unheard of the judges would ever 112 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,079 do that. So they're gonna they're gonna be at the range. Now, 113 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,560 what's interesting about this case, and one of the one 114 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,120 of the big issues in it is the GBI. Okay, 115 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,720 that's that stands for great bottle injury. If there's a 116 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:22,319 separate code section in the state of California for kidnapping 117 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,279 for the purposes of robbery or ransom that results in 118 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,959 great bottle injury or death. Okay, so that case does 119 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,360 not have a sensing range. If you're convicted of that, 120 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,639 the court essentially has the probation of or the option 121 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,759 of granting probation or sensing the defendants to lifelout possibility 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,600 or parole. So it's a it's basically that is the 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,720 prescribed sentence for kidnapping for robbery or ransom that results 124 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:51,759 in great bottle injury. So that's why this case became. 125 00:06:52,639 --> 00:06:54,519 That was the hot issue when these guys all came 126 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,519 and were when they got caught and a couple of 127 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,120 them turned themselves in. They want to plead to everything 128 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,120 except for that enhancement. And that's why because they wanted 129 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,839 to have role hearings. They were convicted of the of 130 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:10,639 the injury and these were like scrapes and bruises. Then 131 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,639 they didn't shoot anybody, nothing, and I read that I 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,000 read indicated that they were particularly violent towards anybody. I 133 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,759 don't think they ever hit, stabbed, punch, or did much 134 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,800 to the bus driver that resulted in physical harm. So 135 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:28,759 you're now left with the definition of great bodily injury, 136 00:07:28,759 --> 00:07:33,000 which in California must be more than superficial injury. It's 137 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,160 things like stitches, broken bones. It's a pretty low bar 138 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,519 injury wise. It doesn't have to be a life threatening injury, 139 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:43,240 but it has to be more than something just trivial 140 00:07:43,319 --> 00:07:45,680 or minor. So that became the issue in this case 141 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,240 because there was a bunch of scrapes and bruises, but 142 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,519 great bodily injury. The Court of Appeal, even though they 143 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,160 were convicted on it, the Court of Appeal reversed that, 144 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,759 and I think in this case that was probably the 145 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,519 right move by the Court of appeal because they were 146 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,639 definitely shaken up. They were definitely traumatized, all these poor 147 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,839 kids and the driver, but there weren't any injuries that 148 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:10,600 really fit the definition of great Bodle injury. So because 149 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,519 of that, once the Court of the Pool reversed it, 150 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,680 that basically made it so that they all got parole hearings. 151 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,079 So they were eligible for parole, and that's why they 152 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,360 got their hearings, and that's why they were ultimately released. 153 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: Kristin and I were both really struck by something though, Matt, 154 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:32,320 which is these twenty six people suffered a significant amount 155 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:36,279 of trauma, as you mentioned it, and very sadly, a 156 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,440 number of these victims, who ranged in age from six 157 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,519 to fourteen in terms of the kids, if I had 158 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:50,440 my numbers right, they had drug problems, alcohol problems with relationships, PTSD, 159 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:54,879 in the extreme nightmares. For the rest of their lives. 160 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,600 Some of them wouldn't go into a closed rum or 161 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:02,279 a confined space. Years later, they couldn't even find themselves 162 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,360 going downstairs in the basement of homes where they lived 163 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,120 does any of that coll It. 164 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 5: Does, and I think that's one of the reasons why 165 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,639 we had so many parole hearings where they were denied parol. 166 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:18,720 One of these, one of the guys was denied parol, 167 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:21,840 I think it was Fred Woods. There's dined parol seventeen times, 168 00:09:21,879 --> 00:09:24,240 I think, which is a lot. Now there's been a 169 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,600 there's been a shift in California where for years and 170 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,879 years the PPT or the parole board was essentially directed 171 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,399 to consider the circumstances of the offense as one of 172 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,799 the primary considerations and therefore one of the primary justifications 173 00:09:39,799 --> 00:09:43,600 for denying PARL. The law has now changed in California 174 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:47,480 so that they can't do that anymore, so they have 175 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:50,000 to look instead to see that's one thing that can 176 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:53,559 be considered. However, they essentially have to justify keeping the 177 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,279 person in which means essentially, are they a risk to 178 00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:00,120 the community if they are released? And have they? And 179 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:04,279 the focus goes back towards what's not as programming behavior 180 00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:06,919 and custody programming would be are they going to AA 181 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,519 meetings if if there was an alcohol drug component to 182 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,320 the crime, are they taking advantage of educational opportunities in prison? 183 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,960 They are basically are they being good citizens in prison, 184 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,759 indicating that they may be suitable for pool that becomes 185 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,080 the name of the game for life, or inmates that 186 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,159 they've got they've got a program and they've got to 187 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,080 complete the classes and get the certificates. And if they 188 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,360 do that eventually and they avoid what are called one 189 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,919 point fifteen's, which are right ups for rule violations in prison. 190 00:10:38,039 --> 00:10:40,080 So if they don't have PRUNO in their cells, they're 191 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,519 not getting caught with weapons, drugs, if they can stay 192 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,360 out of trouble which really isn't hard honestly in prison 193 00:10:47,399 --> 00:10:50,519 because they're surrounded by the worst humans in the state, 194 00:10:51,279 --> 00:10:53,759 that will catch most of the attention from the guards. 195 00:10:53,919 --> 00:10:56,480 So if somebody really wants to behave they will be 196 00:10:56,519 --> 00:11:00,879 given opportunities. And also there's different levels in California. There's 197 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,320 Level four prisons, which are like what you on TV 198 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:06,600 with the yard and the gang members and the mustaches 199 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,399 and all that and the racial segregation imposed by the 200 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:12,399 inmates themselves and all that sort of stuff. Then you 201 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,279 got Level three prisons, which are far safer. Then you 202 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,159 get to like level two prisons and level one prisons 203 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,320 where you've got older inmates that have demonstrated over years 204 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,320 that they're not getting in fights, they're not a threat 205 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:27,000 to staff, they follow the rules. When a lot of 206 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,879 the role hearings we would go do would be at 207 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:32,559 those level two prisons where they're all they're doing is 208 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,879 programming and doing time, it gets increasingly difficult for prosecutors 209 00:11:36,919 --> 00:11:39,679 to successfully advocate to keep a lot of these guys in. 210 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 3: One of the questions that I had now is a 211 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,279 mitigatting circumstance here. When fred Wood went up for role 212 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,200 for I think probably the eighteenth time he was finally 213 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,720 granted it, and some of the articles that I read, 214 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,799 it was revealed that he was running businesses out of prison. 215 00:11:57,879 --> 00:12:00,320 He was running a used car lot. Was I in 216 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,720 a gold mine? He bought real estate from prison? That 217 00:12:03,759 --> 00:12:07,360 can't possibly be allowed? Is it? Wouldn't that be considered 218 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:08,200 bad behavior? 219 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 5: Yeah? That is How was he. 220 00:12:10,519 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 3: Given parole given those circumstances. 221 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 5: The one hundred or so parole hangings I did, I 222 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,159 never saw anybody that was operating a youth car lot 223 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:20,879 from prison. I've never even heard of anything like that. 224 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,600 He doesn't. He was long pegged as the mastermind in 225 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,519 this whole thing, and the great irony here is that 226 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,919 this guy inherited by this on what I read, he 227 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,960 inherited one hundred million dollars. Yeah, and he's living in 228 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,879 a mansion. Now, what's interesting where I think a lot 229 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:38,799 of the I think I actually don't know what the 230 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,240 families did back then, But today I would hope that 231 00:12:42,279 --> 00:12:45,320 they would have sued the the Jesus out of that family, 232 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,840 because this, of course was it was I believe it 233 00:12:47,879 --> 00:12:52,120 was fred Wood's quarry. His father owned the quarry where 234 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:55,440 they buried the event. So that's a family that had 235 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,720 a lot of money, and I guess a lot of 236 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,720 it flows down to what the family knew and didn't know. 237 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:04,240 But I don't know. A judgment perhaps against fred Wood 238 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,879 himself could have been exercised maybe at some point. But 239 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,320 that's also complicated because you're talking about inherence and not 240 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,240 everything is. You can't get at everything as a planet's lawyer. 241 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,440 Sometimes family wealth you can't reach it. But it is 242 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,720 a little disturbing that you get a guy who really 243 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,039 didn't follow the rules. Now, none of those things are violent, 244 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,799 but sitting in a mansion with one hundred million bucks 245 00:13:25,799 --> 00:13:28,480 in his pocket, and you've got the victims of his 246 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,960 crime that are still dealing with PTSD doesn't seem quite right. 247 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:36,519 Speaker 2: From what we've read. There was a settlement, but it 248 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,399 was characterized we didn't see a dollar figure, but it 249 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,600 was characterized as not enough to buy a house for 250 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:49,360 each of the twenty six victims, So you know, one 251 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,720 hundred thousand dollars, I don't know. Well, California is extensive. 252 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, and that would have been back then. So back 253 00:13:57,159 --> 00:13:59,600 in nineteen seventy six, you can buy houses in west 254 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,399 Oa for forty thousand dollars, not enough to buy a 255 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,039 house in Chowchilla when they were selling for a lot 256 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,000 less than forty. I've had it's probably. Yeah, that sounds 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,720 like it's somewhere in the five to twenty thousand dollars 258 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:15,879 ranch back then in the seventies. Yeah, that's disturbing. 259 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 6: To say the least. 260 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,679 Speaker 3: I'm hoping these aren't ridiculous questions, but there's not something 261 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:24,759 that I ever trained for any kidnapping case. Is the 262 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:29,399 number of victims taken into consideration during sentencing, like in 263 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,639 this case, there were twenty six kids and an adults 264 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,440 on the bus. Does each victim equal one count of kidnapping? 265 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:38,279 Or is it the act as a whole that is 266 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,639 considered by the court to be the one mass act 267 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:42,320 of kidnapping. 268 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 5: Each victim is a separate count depending on how it's 269 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,919 filed and how it's prosecuted. I've done. The last kidnapping 270 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,360 I did as a prosecutor involved two people that were kidnapped. 271 00:14:53,399 --> 00:14:57,480 One was the target, one was ancillary, and we argued 272 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,039 very sternly as hard as we can good for full 273 00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:04,919 consecutive sentences for each victim, and the court gave that 274 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,000 to us. So each victim counts. Now, what's interesting, though, 275 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,720 is you can only because of the nature of the crime, 276 00:15:10,759 --> 00:15:13,879 you can only have one l WOP. And I don't 277 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:16,080 know what happened to when the Court of Appeal reversed it. 278 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:19,919 I'm sure they send it back to spirit court for resentencing. 279 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:23,279 So one of the options that, depending on the circumstances 280 00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:27,399 of the kidnapping, that a superior court judge could potentially 281 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,639 do is they can do what's called full consect terms 282 00:15:30,879 --> 00:15:34,840 for twenty six twenty six children or what twenty five 283 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,960 children and one adult there are, depending on the way 284 00:15:38,039 --> 00:15:41,440 the case is charged. You can have a judge sentence 285 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,320 on each one of those, having the defendant. Now they're 286 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,759 going to do one third the mid term for each 287 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:49,440 the math it gets a little bit complicated, but you 288 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,000 see this in sexual assaul cases where there's multiple victims. 289 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,279 Where if there's no multiple victim life enhancement alleged, but 290 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,879 the court has the ability to sentence consecutively, they'll stack 291 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:02,360 numbers so they're not eligible for parole hearing for one 292 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,679 hundred and forty years or one hundred and fifty years 293 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:07,679 or two hundred years. In fact, there's a famous, like 294 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,159 local legend, there was a judge named Judge Fitzgerald in 295 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Orange County and he was it was a gang case, 296 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:15,159 and it was a this guy went on a very 297 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:17,799 violent spree and the sentence comes in. You got this 298 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,399 knucklehead gang member standing there in court. And fitz had 299 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,960 a very dry sense of humor and he was a 300 00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:27,440 no nonsense, old school judge that I appreciate more and 301 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:29,799 more of the older I get. But the kid, the 302 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,639 guy's up there and it was like the sentence was 303 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:34,200 like two hundred and forty nine years and he's going 304 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,279 through the rigamar role and he's like saying, you do 305 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,679 this and if you ever get out, not to associate 306 00:16:38,679 --> 00:16:41,200 with your gang and hereby sends you to one hundred 307 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,960 and forty five years in state prison. And the guy 308 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,799 stops and he says it makes a sound. And Fitzgerald 309 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,039 looks at this gangster with tattoos all over and he goes, 310 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,759 did you have a Do you have a question? Son? 311 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,360 And he said two hundred and forty nine years, slash. 312 00:16:55,399 --> 00:16:57,360 I can't do two hundred and forty nine years. And 313 00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:01,679 he goes, son, you just do as many as you can. 314 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,720 Out Yes, that's okay, son, you just do as many 315 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,759 as you can. So that is and not to be 316 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,160 glibbed out there to the listeners, but this was an 317 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,480 incredibly violent guy who had hurt a bunch of people 318 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,960 and and was he dedicated himself to a life of 319 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,559 violence and victimizing the innocence. Forgive the gallows humor, but 320 00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:24,319 that's a true story and it's legendary down there and 321 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,960 where I used to where I used to work in 322 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:26,680 Orange County. 323 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,599 Speaker 2: Given the three of us, I don't think any of 324 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,279 us are going to be terribly sympathetic to heinous criminals 325 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,240 who've committed violent acts. I'm not terribly sympathetic to someone 326 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,599 who has committed horrible crimes like these. 327 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:44,039 Speaker 5: That's and we're going to get to it. You guys 328 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:46,000 are going to ask me, I say, restorative justice, and 329 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,440 I definitely have some thoughts about that. 330 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely, yeah, I definitely want to get there. 331 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,000 So I guess I just have one more question about parole, 332 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,400 and that's what factors do the parole board take into 333 00:17:58,519 --> 00:18:02,640 account when they make decision to ultimately release someone like 334 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:04,119 fred Wood onto parole. 335 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,519 Speaker 5: So one factor certainly is the amount of time that 336 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:12,240 they have done. So he did forty five actual years, which, 337 00:18:12,839 --> 00:18:16,039 considering nobody died, that's quite a hit. I was surprised 338 00:18:16,039 --> 00:18:19,440 to see in the materials as I was preparing that 339 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,519 Gavin Newsom, of all people, actually opposed his parole. Yeah, 340 00:18:23,559 --> 00:18:28,039 because Gavin Newsom typically is the captain freedom where all 341 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,599 these guys get out. So I was surprised to see that. 342 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,960 It's actually good to see that he does understand that 343 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,200 some people really shouldn't probably ever be released. So that's 344 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,279 one of the big factors. The amount of time. Another 345 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:43,480 they're guided by insight, does the inmate demonstrate that insight 346 00:18:43,519 --> 00:18:47,039 into the offense? Has the inmate programmed in prison? How 347 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,240 much time have they done? They also consider opposition from 348 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,480 the local police department, from the victims' families, you know, 349 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,160 they weigh all of that. All that sort of goes 350 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,799 into the mix. But the parole board is a point 351 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:02,960 to by the governor's office. So these are the people 352 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,440 that work in the Board of prison terms. Some of 353 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,039 them are foreign prison guards. Some of them are former wardens, 354 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,960 which are actually tend to be very good, I think 355 00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:14,920 for victims. But on the other hand, some of them 356 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:19,519 are attorneys that used to be prisoner advocates and their 357 00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:23,039 hearts and sympathies really go towards the inmate. And so 358 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,559 California is an interesting dynamic place, as you guys know, 359 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,359 and this is one of the unseen parts of the 360 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,000 criminal justice system. They don't televise those. There's very little 361 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,319 public understanding of how the parole system works. And we 362 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,640 went from the terms of Gray Davis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, even 363 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,359 Garry Brown in his second term, where it was widely 364 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,359 viewed that life sentences were imposed for a good reason. 365 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,480 There was deference given to the trial courts who really 366 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:55,440 know more about the case than anybody. And they used 367 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,960 to say even the Democratic governors used to say life 368 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,759 means life. Life means life. They would oppose the release 369 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:05,720 of life prisoners. That has completely changed in the state 370 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,079 of California now are thankfully now gone. District Attorney George 371 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,119 Gascone from Los Angeles County his first day, he issued 372 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,160 a bunch of edicts, like all those presidential orders we 373 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,960 just saw the day one, there was a bunch of 374 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,440 stuff that came out. And on his first day, George Gascon, 375 00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:27,240 used to be the DA of San Francisco, came down 376 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:29,759 to La ran as a criminal justice reformer right after 377 00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:33,119 the summer of George Floyd and was elected. He just lost, 378 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,799 by the way, thank god, by I think thirty points 379 00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:40,960 in Los Angeles because he was he was really eager 380 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,680 to prosecute police officers and pretty much nobody else. So 381 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,880 that's all the smash and grabs we saw. All that 382 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,240 stuff can be largely linked to a lot of the 383 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,759 policies seen by many that were imposed by George Gascon, 384 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:56,920 one of which one of the most controversial is that 385 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,680 he immediately forbade prosecutors from Los Angeles County to attend 386 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,039 those parole hearings and oppose the release of people serving life. 387 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,359 So the three groups that serve life by like ninety 388 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,799 eight percent. I don't know what the actual statistics are, 389 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:15,839 but the vast majority of people serving life are not 390 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,440 kidnappers like this case, but they're going to be murderers, 391 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:23,960 child molesters, and rapists. Overwhelmingly, those are the vast majority 392 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,880 of life sentences. And when you stop opposing the release 393 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,519 of those friggin guys, especially when it's in a they are, 394 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,319 they get parole to the same communities that many profess 395 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,440 to want to protect, and they immediately begin praying on 396 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,799 the most vulnerable again. And there's a hypocrisy to that. Anyway, 397 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,759 The parole system is very it's complex, and the philosophy, 398 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,519 especially under Gavinism, has changed radically in the last decade 399 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:51,759 or so. 400 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,559 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 401 00:21:54,839 --> 00:22:12,720 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 402 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:17,599 Mind over Murder. One of the things that we read 403 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,279 was that the victims in this case found it very 404 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,400 difficult to feel obligated to go back time and time 405 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,519 again to oppose the release of these three kidnappers. They 406 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:33,720 found it very difficult, and that would bring back a 407 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,200 lot of really powerful and disturbing memories but because no 408 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,359 one else seemed to be standing up for them, the 409 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,319 victims themselves, as they grew into adulthood, felt that they 410 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,240 had to go before the parole board to oppose releasing 411 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:50,880 these three prisoners. 412 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 5: That is I'm glad you mentioned that, because that really 413 00:22:54,519 --> 00:22:58,839 is that's where we get into the Menendez touch VERSI. Okay, 414 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,920 when the people there are serving lifelout possibility of parole, 415 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,440 I'm here to tell you are the worst human beings 416 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:07,039 on the planet and for our little sliver of the 417 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,160 world here, to get an l WOP sentence, which is 418 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,759 what they call it LWOP, you have to have committed 419 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,519 something absolutely horrific. It's almost always first agree murders with 420 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,519 special circumstances, but kidnapping with GBI I did one where 421 00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:25,000 they severed the man's penis and took it with them. 422 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,559 That's basically what you have to do. They were trying 423 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:29,400 to rob him. That's what you have to do to 424 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,000 get an LWOP sentence. And a lot of people don't 425 00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,000 understand what these families go through when the determinate part 426 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:38,119 of the sentence is up and these guys start getting 427 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,160 pool hearings, because the families do they have to go. 428 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,880 Sometimes they allow them on zoom. But imagine that if 429 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,759 you lose a loved one to a murderer, rape, murder, 430 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:50,759 whatever it may be. Now rape would hopefully be an 431 00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:54,079 LWOP sentence. Your loved one is murdered by somebody else, 432 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,480 that person comes up for parole and they're typically given 433 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,240 there's a range of deferrals. Sometimes they can be the 434 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,720 parole can be deferred six months. And some of these 435 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,000 families have to go to a prison twice a year 436 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:10,000 to oppose the person that murder their love one and 437 00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:13,559 sit in a room with them. It is an absolute nightmare. 438 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,359 It's not fair to them. So that's where Menendez comes in. 439 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,480 Like all these people are like, oh, they've done thirty 440 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,119 five years, what's the big deal? Where it's just elop, 441 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,400 let's re sentence them. The big deal is if you 442 00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:28,079 do it on one, every one of those people is 443 00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:31,400 going to be lining up trying to get their sentencing redone. 444 00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,079 And when you remove al wop, it means the families 445 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,680 have this incredible imposition upon them where they have to 446 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,319 go and do the state's job essentially, and they have 447 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,559 to go and appeer and they oftentimes feel obligated for 448 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:46,480 their love on but it is it's a nightmare and 449 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,680 it never ends until the person gets out. And that 450 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:51,960 now the guy's out and the family has personally sat 451 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:54,839 in a room and railed against them multiple times, and 452 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,839 it's a murderer. So that's a lock your door's moment 453 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,519 for sure. There are Look, there are a certain sences 454 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,240 where life without possibility parole is the fairest sentence for 455 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,960 the victims because it means that they get to put 456 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,519 it behind them and not worry. So all these people 457 00:25:09,559 --> 00:25:11,599 that come around and there's a big movement in California 458 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,559 to eliminate that as a sentence, and that can only 459 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:18,839 be done, in my view, with utter disregard for the 460 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,039 impact upon innocent family members of their victims. 461 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 6: Well said, I couldn't agree more. 462 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that someday someone, perhaps a group of someone's, 463 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,160 are sentenced in the Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm picturing 464 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,839 that the families would have to go through this. This 465 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,440 seems like on some level, you're making the victims, the 466 00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:45,279 survivors prisoners themselves of the parole system because they're gonna 467 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:47,799 have to go back every couple of years and fight 468 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:48,519 for something. 469 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 6: As you said, this should be the state's job. 470 00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 5: That's right, yep, and it should be done. You're absolutely right. 471 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:59,119 They are. Really they become prisoners in their own right, 472 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,559 especially the moms, the elderly moms who lost children, the killers, 473 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:05,599 whether they were children or just their own kids. Like 474 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,039 if it's murdering the child's in their twenties their thirties, 475 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:13,200 you know, your standard second degree murder, given the current 476 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,720 sentencing guidelines, that person gets out or gets a parole 477 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,519 hearing in twelve years. So imagine that you have a 478 00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:23,759 love one that's murdered that you're at a you personally 479 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,559 will have to attend a parole hearing in twelve years. 480 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:28,720 You're not even out, you're not even over the shock 481 00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:31,519 of grief. If it's a close family member who's murdered, 482 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,440 you're barely processing the killing. In twelve years, and the 483 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,079 person who did it will be eligible for parole in 484 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,720 a second degree murder. Now there's enhancements depending on whether 485 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,440 there's a gun, whether there's a knife. There's ways that 486 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,119 sometimes they can add time to that, but right now, 487 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:50,039 a generic second degree murder is fifteen years to life 488 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,400 with good time work time, and that the parole hearing 489 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,119 happens in about twelve years, so your standard domestic violence murder, 490 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,359 that guy is going to be up for parole in 491 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:02,039 just over a decade. Man. 492 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 3: One of the things that I found most interesting when 493 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,640 I was watching the Child Chilla documentary was discussion from 494 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,279 one of the survivors. His name is Larry Park. He 495 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,640 was six when he was kidnapped and held for ransom, 496 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,480 and he is one of the people who seem to 497 00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:23,440 have the hardest time dealing with PTSD, trauma and so 498 00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:25,599 on and so forth, and I don't blame him at all. 499 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,240 He talked about his decision to become involved in the 500 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:33,720 restorative justice process. He said that it helped him more 501 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,839 than anything else could have. Can you talk to us 502 00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:41,079 about restorative justice for anyone who is not familiar with it, 503 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,599 What does that process look like? 504 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,759 Speaker 5: First of all, anything that provided some peace to him 505 00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:49,839 as an individual victim. Of course, I support that one 506 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,000 hundred percent. That is that's really that's a great thing 507 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:57,880 for him. The concept of restorative justice is essentially it's 508 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,039 an academic model. They use a lot in South Africa 509 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,839 after apartheid, so it's an internationally used thing oftentimes, and 510 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,920 I think they did some of that in the Congo 511 00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:12,599 after the slaughter of the the Suitsies, and they've tried 512 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,759 it in different places in the world. Essentially, what it 513 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:21,119 means is that the perpetrator is afforded an opportunity to 514 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,119 say sorry to the victims and when talk about their 515 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,359 story and what led them there, and that under certain 516 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,759 circumstances like this is one where maybe that works great. 517 00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:36,599 They propose it academically as a counter model to what 518 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,920 is known as the punitive justice system. In reality, number one, 519 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,920 they're not mutually exclusive. In California, we have we're known 520 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,160 as victim impact statements, which can be incredibly cathartic for 521 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,599 the victims to stand up there where the defendant has 522 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,240 to sit there and listen to them, and they get 523 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:55,079 to talk about what it did to them. They get 524 00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:57,839 to talk about how it impacted their family, their job, 525 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,119 their relationships. The ones that I've done we're in murder cases, 526 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,240 so it's a family member of the victim that comes 527 00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:07,079 up and does that can be incredibly powerful, and that 528 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,119 can be really cathartic for them. The idea of a 529 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,839 pure restorative justice model is can I swear on your show? Okay? 530 00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:20,440 That's just it's friggin bullshit. It's basically that you And 531 00:29:20,559 --> 00:29:23,279 this is my opinion only to twenty six years advocating 532 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,680 for victims, and I still advocate for victims in certain crimes. 533 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,440 If it's somebody who vandalized somebody's car, like we're seeing 534 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,920 that with Tesla, if somebody wants to sit down with 535 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,440 the victim and say I was really sorry, I was 536 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,039 a bede, awesome. Great when it comes to I spent 537 00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:39,960 twenty one years prosecuting child mousters, rapists, and murderers, those 538 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,559 are predatory defendants. When you're talking about somebody that's crossed 539 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,119 rubicon and is the sexual abuse of strangers. I never 540 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,000 want to see one of my victims have to endure 541 00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:55,000 some a hole rapist explain why they did it, because 542 00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,920 there usually isn't the insight to begin with child monasters, rapists, 543 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,400 those who are sexual predator. All that happy hugging in 544 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,079 the world is never going to change their predatory nature. 545 00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:07,119 They're going to keep doing that for as lung as 546 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,960 they draw breath. If they're given the opportunity, and I 547 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,240 think that it's great if the victim wants to participate. 548 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,519 I think using it as any sort of official model 549 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:17,559 puts victims in the position they have to sit and 550 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,880 listen to that, And they did that in Liberia after 551 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,400 the Liberian Civil War. And there's some really interesting documentaries 552 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:30,160 on a guy who who ran a group of child soldiers, 553 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,680 like one of the rebel groups. It was called the 554 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,359 buck Naked Brigade. And this guy was a monster and 555 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,400 he would torture people. He was one of these people 556 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,279 that cut off arms and hands, and in certain communities 557 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:43,599 it became the official policy that the victims would have 558 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,680 to sit there and listen to that guy like they 559 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,160 were compelled to do it. I cannot tell you how 560 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,319 much I oppose that. And also when it comes to murders, 561 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,880 it's if it helps the victim's family, great, I'm all 562 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,559 for it. They should never be compelled to do it, 563 00:30:57,599 --> 00:30:59,880 and it should be done, in my view, only in 564 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:04,200 conjunction with punitive measures, where that person is has to 565 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,000 spend as much time in prison as possible, especially if 566 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,559 it's a predatory homicide, because that's a different thing. 567 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 6: Now. 568 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 5: The true predators in a vast array of crimes and 569 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,759 criminal justice. It's a small group, but that's what I 570 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:22,599 specialized in and The only circumstance that I think my 571 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,599 victims should ever have to spend time in room with 572 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,119 one of those guys is when the guy has to 573 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000 sit there in a courtroom and listen to what the 574 00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:33,720 victim has to say. And it's called a statement in allocution. 575 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640 Some judges allow it, some don't, where the defendant can 576 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,559 then address the victims. And I'll tell you I was 577 00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,839 on a case, a Golden State killer case, Joseph D'Angelo. 578 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,160 That guy was a monster, and the court aloud gave 579 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,200 him the last word. And that was in Sacramento. I 580 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,400 had retired at that point from the day's office, so 581 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,400 I wasn't there for that. I would have been. I 582 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,279 was crawling through my TV screen when I saw that, 583 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,119 like that guy should never have been given the last 584 00:31:56,119 --> 00:32:00,119 word because he was a monster. So restorative justice sounds 585 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:02,720 great on paper, I think the practical application of that, 586 00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:06,880 when you're talking about predatory, violent criminal defendants, I think 587 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,400 that it is very misplaced under most circumstances. And I 588 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,640 got strong feelings about this. For minor cases, it's fine, 589 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:19,839 knock yourself out. For the rare victim that chooses to 590 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,160 participant in it, like the young not so young man 591 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,079 in our case anymore, the six year old. That's great, 592 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,200 But I'm telling you, for rapists, child musters, and murders, 593 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,640 I don't think anybody should us to listen to them, 594 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,680 and adopting that as an official model is deeply problematic 595 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:36,880 for a lot of reasons. 596 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: Now, I will say this, though we've met a number 597 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:44,160 of survivors. Many of them have told us that the 598 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:48,480 victim impact Statement, which many of them worked on for 599 00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:52,519 weeks just to craft what it was they wanted to say, 600 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:56,279 was very powerful for them and very empowering. 601 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, time. 602 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,079 Speaker 6: Many of them talked about it as. 603 00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:04,359 Speaker 2: Finally a way to speak out and take some degree 604 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,440 of control over this horrific situation. In many cases these 605 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,079 are relatives of murder victims, but that it was very 606 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:13,559 meaningful for them. 607 00:33:13,759 --> 00:33:16,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, and it can be. But also remember that 608 00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:20,960 that's a situation of control where they talk at the 609 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,359 podium and the defendant has to sit there at council 610 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,359 table and listen. They don't. The defendant doesn't get to 611 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,359 talk to them, doesn't get to address them unless the 612 00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:31,079 court allows it, and the court usually will ask for 613 00:33:31,319 --> 00:33:34,160 a heads up regarding the prostitutor's position on a statement 614 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,240 in allocution, and sometimes the courts allow it and it 615 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,960 can be okay. But restorative justice is the classic case 616 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,920 of that is you bring the bad guy in and 617 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,640 you sit him in a chair across from the victim, 618 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,880 and you bring in quote unquote members of the community 619 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,640 whatever that means depending on the case, and you let 620 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,440 the guy. The ones that I have seen is infuriating 621 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,720 to me because it's basically a bunch of excuses and 622 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:01,640 I did this, but it's only because I had a 623 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,759 hard life, or I didn't have any money or blah 624 00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:07,720 blah blah blah blah. Under in that, using that as 625 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,760 a model, I think you can do. If it's poorly done, 626 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,320 it can do more harm than good. Victim impact is awesome. 627 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,679 Letting some predatory monster talk at his victim is something 628 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,000 that I think we should all be opposed unless it's 629 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:27,559 carefully regulated, it's supervised properly. It has to be done right, 630 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:31,039 and even then, it is not a substitute for lengthy 631 00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:34,519 prison and custodial sentences for violent crimes. That's how you 632 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,119 give victim solace. You make sure that the person's punished. 633 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:38,719 They're not going to hurt anybody. Else, and they're paying 634 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,079 for what they did to the victim or their loved ones. 635 00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 3: In my view, Matt, do you feel like justice has 636 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,280 ultimately been served in the child Chilli case? Richard Chowenfeld 637 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,800 served thirty five years, James Chowenfeld served thirty eight and 638 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,199 Fred Woods served forty five years. Do you feel given 639 00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:01,679 the magnitude in scope of the crime and the number 640 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,119 of victims, do you feel like they serve the amount 641 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:06,119 of time they should have served or do you feel 642 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,280 like they should probably still be back in there. 643 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 5: I think that fred Wood and his one hundred million dollars, 644 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,639 that one disserves me a little bit. But then again, 645 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,880 forty five years for this crimes. Who he was twenty four? 646 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,000 I think when he helped me do math, I went 647 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,599 to law schools because I couldn't do mouth. So twenty 648 00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:23,920 four plus forty five, what are we at his parole date? 649 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:27,639 Speaker 3: It was sent he was seventy when he was seven. 650 00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:30,519 Speaker 5: Seven years old. Okay, I think that this one I 651 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:33,880 just bit my rant that you just listened to it 652 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,480 dulgs me on regarding restorative justice and that happy crap. 653 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:40,559 I think that this one, honestly, I think that these 654 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:45,079 are Ballpark. Even though that it was absolutely horrific because 655 00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:48,119 nobody was killed, I think that is a these were 656 00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:52,320 substantial sentences given the fact that everybody survived, and that 657 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,519 is I'm not taking anything away from the psychological horror 658 00:35:55,519 --> 00:35:57,280 and what all these poor people are going through now. 659 00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:00,599 But again, strangle your husband in the middle of in 660 00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:04,119 a custody dispute, you're getting a parole hearing in twelve years. 661 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,440 The fact that these guys served thirty five and forty 662 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,679 five years actual, that seems commensurate with what they did. 663 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,440 And another thing, I think that for the state of 664 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,199 California also when these guys start getting old, if they've 665 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,880 served decades. In decades, that means they didn't have families 666 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,599 of their own. They destroyed their own lives in the process, 667 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,480 which is appropriate for what these guys did, that they 668 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,760 should suffer a hit like that. But also as a taxpayer, 669 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,480 we live in the highest, most highest highly taxed state 670 00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:36,159 in America, right, I'm happy that those guys get out, 671 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,039 and especially the guy with that fred Wood, with his money, 672 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,519 we're not paying all of his medical expenses as the 673 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,320 ages in prison too. But now I think that this 674 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,719 was Paul Park seventeen parole denials. But again the problem 675 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,880 is imagine that seventeen hearings where these poor victims have 676 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,039 to go in seventeen times for the guy who did 677 00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:57,360 this for money. Remember they were after five million dollars, 678 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,000 so this was, in a way, depending on how you 679 00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,400 look at it, this was worse than a lot of crimes. 680 00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:05,639 These weren't methaddicts who figured out they were sticking a 681 00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:07,679 gun in some poor guy's face at a seven to eleven. 682 00:37:08,079 --> 00:37:11,119 These weren't even like mentally ill people or even like 683 00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:13,679 the rapists themselves that at least have a screw loose 684 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,880 to God. And this is the worst reason to violently 685 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,159 victimize people of all, and that's money. Like this was 686 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:24,280 well planned, not so well planned. It was planned out, 687 00:37:24,639 --> 00:37:27,639 it was thought through, and they were just after cash. 688 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:30,639 Maybe one of the most disturbing parts is these guys 689 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:34,159 all came from rich families. It's almost like the Saco 690 00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:38,440 and Benzetti trial of the Chicago in the early nineteen hundreds. 691 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,880 It's the just the wantonness of it. They didn't need it, 692 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,159 but they did it for the thrill. And if they 693 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:47,480 hadn't dug themselves out, I don't know, guys, you're more 694 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,000 familiar with the facts's than I am. But as I'm 695 00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:54,159 reading through that, it's like they're really lucky that all 696 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,519 twenty six of these people did not die. 697 00:37:57,039 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 2: The roof of the movements collapses, was collapsing, and when 698 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,400 you see the photographs. I found more photographs over the weekend. 699 00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:09,440 It was shocking how bad the conditions were to start with, 700 00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:12,440 and then the roof began caving in from the weight 701 00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:16,840 of the twelve feet of rock and boulders and dirt 702 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,400 they had put on top of the moving van, So 703 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,559 those people could have died. One of the things that 704 00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,000 Kristin and I could not get over was when they 705 00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:29,519 couldn't get through to the Chowchilla Pde to place their 706 00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:34,039 ransom demand because the amazing the town's phone system was 707 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:39,639 so jammed by family members, media and other inquiries. That 708 00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:44,679 these idiots took an sleep, Yeah, took a nap while 709 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,400 these kids are terrified in what Kristin described as a tomb. 710 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,199 Speaker 5: Yeah, kidnappings, hard work, napping, nap time was important. No, 711 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,159 they were literally the roof is caving in. There's all 712 00:38:56,199 --> 00:38:59,039 these children six years old, and those knuckleheads want to 713 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,760 sleep it is. The whole case is outrageous, but maybe 714 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,480 the most outrageous part. I just have this visual image, 715 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,320 guys of this guy sitting in his mansion with his 716 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,400 hundred million bucks he's got out when he was seventy. 717 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,199 I don't know how old he is now, but I 718 00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,800 don't know. It suould be great if there's a mechanism 719 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,960 to funnel some of that cash swards those victims. 720 00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. When you were saying you thought they'd 721 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,480 served enough time. I was going to say, Matt, you softy, 722 00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:26,480 you and I understand. 723 00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 5: I'm not I'm saying it's the it's in the ballpark. 724 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,480 It's in the ballpark. I'm not saying that. I'm not 725 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,119 saying I agree with any of these VPT decisions on it. 726 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:36,440 It's just not as it's not as outrageous as some 727 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,519 of the some of the releases that I have seen 728 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:42,039 personally over the years. Forty five years is it's a 729 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:44,719 long time. That is a that's a long time to 730 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,360 actually serve. But hey, you guys hit the nail on 731 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,280 the head. The fact that the guy's violating prison rules 732 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,000 by running businesses and all that stuff. I think that 733 00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,440 they should have won fifteen his butt and kept him 734 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,039 in personally. But and look, you're you're almost never going 735 00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:00,800 to hear me advocate for the release of any life prisoner. 736 00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:03,960 But sometimes I included this part of my book. There 737 00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:06,039 are a few that I sat I sat in that 738 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,039 prole board room looking at where especially the ones that 739 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:12,760 did stuff when they were very young, like eighteen years old, 740 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,000 where I saw people that actually as adults, understood what 741 00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:19,800 they had done, what they participated in, they regretted it, 742 00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:23,199 they'd served a substantial chunk of their life. I did 743 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,119 have a few that I looked across the table and 744 00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:27,679 thought that guy could get released and not hurt anybody else. 745 00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:29,880 Not a lot, but I did have a few, and 746 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,000 this is one forty five years. Considering nobody died, there 747 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,039 would be a lot. I can understand the pressure that 748 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:38,360 was on that parle board in the eighteenth subsequent they 749 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,760 called that's what they call it, subsequence is subsequent hearing. 750 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,320 But had I been on the board, I almost certainly 751 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,800 way have voted against releasing the guy. But am am 752 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,760 I going to lose sleep tonight over the idea that guy, 753 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,320 when nobody died, did forty five actual years. I'll lose 754 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,079 sleep on some other ones tonight, guys, but I want 755 00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:57,000 to lose sleep on that one. 756 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,639 Speaker 3: My one other interesting tidbit here about fred Woods. Not 757 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,360 only did he leave to one hundred million dollars and 758 00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:08,519 a couple of lucrative businesses, he was married three times 759 00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:12,239 while he was inside prison. How does that even work? 760 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,760 Matt If you want to get married inside prison, do 761 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,440 you ask someone's permission? How does that even work? 762 00:41:18,039 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 5: So again, California, I grew up here. I love California, 763 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:24,960 but our state is more than a little crazy, guys. 764 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,840 And the way the law, the way the law used 765 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,840 to be, is that you if you were a life prisoner, 766 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,559 you could not have conjugal visits. And man, yeah, you 767 00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:36,840 can marry anybody you want, but you don't get the 768 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,280 benefits that go along. That is shifted back and forth 769 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,079 over the years. And you know what, I don't know 770 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:45,159 what the current status of that is, but I know 771 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,800 that for other violent felons in the state of California 772 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,760 that aren't terving life sentences, they are allowed conjugal visits, 773 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,480 and the prisons use that as a reward system where 774 00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:56,880 it's like, hey, be good and your husband or wife 775 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,280 can come visit you and you can get that. They 776 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,000 use it as like behavioral modification carot, so to speak, 777 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,559 where it's like, hey, behave yourself and you get to 778 00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:07,920 you get to spend the night with your with your 779 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,400 girlfriend or your wife. I don't know if they have 780 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,199 to be married for that to happen. But again, our legislation, 781 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,280 our legislature in California is very active, and this is 782 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,000 one of the areas that they like to weigh in on. 783 00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:21,079 And there's a lot of them up there, certainly not 784 00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:22,920 all of there's a lot of them who, for reasons 785 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,400 I don't understand, love their criminals. So I don't know 786 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,039 what the current status of the laws on that. I 787 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:31,960 do know that Schuyler da leone one of the cases 788 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,320 I did, he was given gender reassignment surgery and I 789 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,920 got a photo that went up in my hands with 790 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,679 him and his boyfriend who or her? I guess they'd 791 00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:44,559 say it, and I'm not gonna call him her, And 792 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,599 I don't know how that works. I don't know how 793 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,679 you get a full contact visit when you're literally a 794 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,400 death row inmate. But I got a photo of them hugging. Yeah, 795 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,039 it's a twisted maze of ever changing laws in the 796 00:42:57,079 --> 00:42:59,559 state of California, and used to be that you can't 797 00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:02,480 get you could get conjugals as a lifer. It should 798 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,719 be that way in my opinion. Why should they get 799 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,000 to have babies when their victims are dead? But I 800 00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,920 am not in charge. Thankfully for me and probably many 801 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,199 of the people I put in prison, they don't ask 802 00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:14,719 me anymore. 803 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 6: So conversation for another day. 804 00:43:18,079 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 2: Kristin and I are both fascinated with who the heck 805 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,199 wants to marry some fool who's in jail for murder 806 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,079 or sexual assault or other serious crimes. 807 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,519 Speaker 6: This is beyond me. 808 00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it looks Richard Ramirez, the night stalker, girlfriend 809 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,000 after girlfriend, the Menendez brothers, each of them I think, 810 00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:43,559 has been married, one of them, I think, while even 811 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,199 was accused of his by his wife of having an 812 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,519 affair better. How do you cheat on your wife when 813 00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:52,039 you're in prison? But they do, they do, and they 814 00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:54,239 I don't know. If it's just a notoriety, I don't know. 815 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,760 I don't know what it is. If it's people that 816 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,440 want to fix them, they want to see the good 817 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,039 in them, I don't know. But these guys, especially the 818 00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:05,760 famous ones, they have no trouble finding the men that 819 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,880 are in there, and have no trouble for finding women 820 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,760 that want to. There's got to be a whole psychological 821 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,039 thing that goes along time. Maybe, but it's a safety thing, 822 00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:15,960 it's an abandonment thing. The psychology the women who do that, 823 00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:18,519 I don't know, but yeah, it's another feature of our 824 00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:19,119 crazy world. 825 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're pretty close to being out of time. But 826 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,840 I would like to put a marker down that Kristin 827 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,920 and I actually want to do some research on this. 828 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,880 We actually want to have a discussion about why do people, 829 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,039 typically women marry people that are in jail for horrific crimes. 830 00:44:36,199 --> 00:44:39,199 We're not talking about a relatively minor offense here, we're 831 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,960 talking about lifers. As you said, Yeah, conversation for a 832 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000 future episode. 833 00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:46,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, hey, I'd love to be a part of it. 834 00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:49,079 Speaker 3: Matt. As we're wrapping up here, go ahead and plug 835 00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:51,119 your book for everybody, please, so that we can get 836 00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:52,320 you some additional book sales. 837 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you. So it's the book of murder Prosecutor's 838 00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:57,519 Journey through Love and Deus. What I do is I 839 00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:00,719 chronicle my experience in the HOMSID at the Orange County 840 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,159 Gay's Office, walk people through the taxonomy of different murder 841 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,360 cases and the things I learned from serial killers to 842 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,480 conspiracies to kill for money. I have a gang chapter, 843 00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:13,639 which I think is it was fun to write, so 844 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,280 hopefully it's fun for people to read. It's available on 845 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,519 Audible Amazon Books. The audible is doing very well, four 846 00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,039 point nine stars out of almost one thousand ratings so far. 847 00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:25,239 And yeah, so it was fun to write. Hopefully people 848 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,960 will check it out. And I've got a proposal and 849 00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:30,320 I want to write another one, this time focusing on 850 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:33,320 zero killers. So hopefully I can get another book deal. 851 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 6: Wow, it's a great read. 852 00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 2: We both really enjoyed it, and we urge folks to 853 00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:39,039 check it out. 854 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 6: The Book of Murder. 855 00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:42,800 Speaker 3: Matt, thank you so much for joining us today. We 856 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,360 really appreciate you taking the time. 857 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,679 Speaker 5: Thanks guys, as always love your show. 858 00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. That is going to do it 859 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,079 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you for listening. 860 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,280 We'll see you next time. 861 00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:07,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 862 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,119 Another Dog Productions. 863 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:13,039 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 864 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 865 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,519 Speaker 6: Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud. 866 00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with kral Space Media. 867 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 868 00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:29,679 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 869 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,559 Murders on Facebook. 870 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 871 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:35,119 Bill Thomas. 872 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:36,039 Speaker 6: Five six. 873 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:39,599 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.