WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.919 Oh hello, Ologites. Okay, so this is an encore presentation 2 00:00:03.319 --> 00:00:06.440 of an episode, but with a few new bells and whistles. 3 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.039 I just added because you loved this ologist so much 4 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.640 when this first aired in twenty eighteen. And she has 5 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.160 a brand new podcast of her own. It just launched. 6 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:20.239 It's called How to Save a Planet and it's co 7 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:23.960 hosted by Alex Blumberg. The latest episode of her new 8 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:28.120 podcast addresses the most common Patreon question we got for her, 9 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:30.359 So you're definitely gonna want to go check out our 10 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.280 new podcast. Also, at the break, you're going to hear 11 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:37.479 an update from the Ologist herself that she sentenced. 12 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.479 Specifically for Ologies listeners. 13 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.799 Trust me, you want to hear what she has been 14 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:47.000 up to the last two years. It's amazing. Just trust me. Also, 15 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:50.560 I think I swore like your grandpa at poker night 16 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:53.520 in this episode, so sorry. Also, there's a new secret 17 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:56.119 at the end. Okay, here we go. Oh hi, it's 18 00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:00.000 all pop. Here sot mowing the lawn in those shorts 19 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.920 your mother wishes. I throwaway Alley Ward back with another 20 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:08.000 episode of Ologies. Now. In this episode, let's just belly 21 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.599 up to the coast. Let's gaze out over a craggy 22 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:17.120 cliff and stare into the glimmering sea. What wonders? What mystery? 23 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.879 What possibility? What a shit show? We've made it? But 24 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.719 is there hope? I don't know. I'm not an oceanologist, 25 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:27.200 but that's okay because other people are. And you're gonna 26 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:29.280 get the real time scoop on whether or not we 27 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.640 have missed the boat, on saving the sea, and what 28 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:36.000 we're doing to make it better. So hank tight, because 29 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:37.879 before we sit sail a few things you can do 30 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.920 to help keep this podcast afloat. So thank you to 31 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:44.920 the patrons who pledge a bucker moore a month to 32 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:48.359 the show. You have kept it running almost a full year, now, 33 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.680 can you even it's almost in our anniversary. Your questions 34 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.560 are great, your hearts are greater. If you want to 35 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:59.439 support ologies via items, ologiesmarch dot com has you covered 36 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.159 literally the link is in the show notes. 37 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:03.840 And if you spend all. 38 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:07.239 Your money on a very tiny baseball jersey for your hamster, 39 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.039 I get it. And you can support ologies with just 40 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.800 your words and your thumbs by telling friends and tweeting 41 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.599 and gramming and making sure that you're subscribed. So reviews 42 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.080 and ratings are free to do. You can just do 43 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.919 them and kind of like a rodent in clothes. I'm 44 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:27.599 just a little creepy and I read every single review 45 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:30.520 because it's really nice that you leave them, and it 46 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.719 makes me remember that there are real human beings in 47 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.560 the void listening to this. So this week I just 48 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.000 want to say thank you to Jenny Farn who says 49 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.159 every day I commute an hour each way to my job, 50 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.840 God bless you teaching elementary school art. And this podcast 51 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.879 is like a billion mini hot tubs for my overworked 52 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.159 brain cells. Will also give me cool stuff to talk 53 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.919 to the kids about, like shark vomit and why the 54 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:57.800 darn sky is blue but not on Mars. Also, I've 55 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.520 stolen Burbie as my favorite way to exit conversations with 56 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:04.840 hyper six year olds and online conversations that have taken 57 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:09.000 a bad turn. Thanks for everything. You're very welcome. Jen Okay, 58 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:15.319 Oceanology board, Are you saying oceanography wrong? No, no, my 59 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:19.159 tender bitches, I am not so. Oceanology is a thing. 60 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.360 It's defined as the branch of technology and economics dealing 61 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:28.080 with human use of the sea, So heck, yes, this 62 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:33.120 person is very much an oceanologist now at warning, Is 63 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:38.280 this the cheeriest of episodes? Is it full of warm fuzzies? No, 64 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.240 no it's not. But is it important? Yes, yes it is. 65 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:47.000 I did my best to balance the gloom with some wonder, 66 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:50.560 and I promise you it is important enough to stick 67 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:54.199 with the entire episode. There's so much good information. Also, 68 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.360 special thank you to one of my favorite science in 69 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.599 politics and Internet heroes, Baritonde Thurston for hooking me up 70 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.840 with this allogist who I nervously emailed the all caps question. 71 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.400 How screwed are these oceans? 72 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.319 Keep listening to hear her answer. So she's based on 73 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.639 the East Coast. So I had her on my wish list, 74 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:15.159 and one day in August, I got myself to her 75 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.480 native Brooklyn, and I tried to pretend I was cool 76 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:19.399 enough to be there, and we met up at an 77 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.199 audio studio at Pioneer Works, which is this beautiful art 78 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.319 and cultural center and event space where I would love 79 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:28.639 to live as a stowaway if they would never find 80 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.240 me out. Now, as a marine biologist and a policy strategist, 81 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:37.959 she does TED talks. She's worked with the Environmental Protection 82 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.800 Agency and the National Oceanic and atmospheric Administration. She's an 83 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:47.680 adjunct professor at NYU. She's also an environmental advocate. She 84 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:51.160 travels the world working with politicians and communities to make 85 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.160 their relationship to the oceans healthier. I am just like 86 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:57.879 in gentle awe of her now. She had just gotten 87 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.279 back from an occupational venture the night before, and I 88 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:05.079 just had the tape rolling as I waited for her 89 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.439 arrival in the studio. Way too eager didn't want to 90 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:11.680 miss a second, so we talked about her favorite aspects 91 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.000 of the ocean when she fell in love with it, 92 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:20.199 coral reefs, parrotfish, their butts, disgusting whale trivia, even more 93 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:25.279 disgusting plastic trivia, the amount of doomed we are, what 94 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:29.000 fish you shouldn't eat, and whether or not plastic straws 95 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.680 really deserve their evil reputation. So it's not all sunny, 96 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:36.839 but she is an expert who will really talk us 97 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.079 all into action. So please get ready to listen to 98 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:46.480 the crashing waves of wisdom from oceanologist doctor Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. 99 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:06.600 So do you need a minute, do you need anything else? 100 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:07.639 I'm good? 101 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:09.480 Or do you just want me to start lobbing questions? 102 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.680 About oceans. I you I just got back from the oceans, 103 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:14.959 So you just got back in the ocean like five 104 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:17.959 minutes ago, pretty much. Yeah, how much of your work 105 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:20.519 is in the field in the ocean and how much 106 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.439 is like traveling around making policy, because I know that. 107 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.639 You do both. I don't have an active research program 108 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:28.279 right now, so in the ocean, I'm just kind of 109 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:32.199 like checking it out or hanging out, keeping in touch 110 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.720 with the ecosystems and what's going on down there. So 111 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.759 most of my work is more so than policy specifically, 112 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.199 just strategy work. How do all these different organizations make 113 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:49.560 their campaigns better, their communications better, policy work more strategic. 114 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.920 So Ocean Collective, the company I founded, is a consulting 115 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:58.279 group that supports other organizations trying to amp up the 116 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:04.000 impact of their conservation efforts. It's thirteen incredible experts from 117 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:12.480 professional surfers, marine biologists, underwater robot makers, filmmakers, policy experts, 118 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.279 and we're all just coming together as this team to 119 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.920 try to see what we can do to help. 120 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.600 And can we talk about your background a little bit about. 121 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.560 Your totally love of the ocean. That was so melodic. 122 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:25.920 I thought you were going to like ask me questions 123 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:29.160 about my former acappella career. So did you have a 124 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.920 former acapella career? I maybe did. Yeah, I was a 125 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.160 jazz singer for most of my youth. 126 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.560 Really side note, I'm sorry I sang it you. And 127 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.240 also I asked if she had any music of hers 128 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.720 that I could put in here, and she said, no, 129 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:45.920 no jazz clips to share. Sorry about that, So I 130 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.439 did try. Okay, all right, back to the sea. When 131 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.240 when did you get into oceans and marine biology? When 132 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:53.439 did you decide to take that path? 133 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.639 When I was five, I learned to swim in the 134 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.600 Florida Keys on a family vacation. My parents would be 135 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.160 down there specifically to teach me to swim, and I 136 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:04.439 went on a glass bottom boat and I saw crawlry 137 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.199 for the first time, and it blew my damn mind. 138 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.079 It was so incredible. I mean just it's like a 139 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.519 window to another world. Right. You look down and there's 140 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:19.480 just fish and coral and all these colorful things that 141 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:23.199 you could never have imagined. So that, for me was 142 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.639 the moment that I just wanted to know everything about 143 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:26.199 the ocean. 144 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.279 So Iana went on to get a bachelor's degree from 145 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:34.639 just this little startup college called in the field of 146 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.480 environmental science and public policy. She also obtained a PhD 147 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.720 from Script's Institute of Oceanography in marine biology, studying coral 148 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:48.840 reef sustainability. Now during all of that, did she ever 149 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.679 think like, maybe I should switch my major to bagpiping, 150 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:58.120 like just take a turn into something totally non oceanic. 151 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:03.200 I decided pretty early on not to take any turns. 152 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.840 So my PhD is technically in marine biology, but it 153 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.519 was done through an interdisciplinary program at the SCRIPTS and 154 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.000 Soution of Oceanography that was partnering with the Economics Department 155 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.440 to make sure that ocean conservation was integrating all these 156 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:22.120 different things, because it's really a puzzle, right. There's a science, 157 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:25.519 and there's the policy, there's the communications, there's the law 158 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.200 and economics, and so I wanted to make sure that 159 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.480 I had at least a reasonable handle on all these 160 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.360 different pieces of the puzzle so that I could go 161 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.799 out into the world and help to try to solve it. 162 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:42.159 In a broader sense, there's obviously like a strong need 163 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.279 for people to go really deeply into each of those, Like, 164 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:47.440 for example, I'm really glad there are people out there 165 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:50.120 who just study octopuses and like tell us everything they 166 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.000 learn because they're amazing by the way my mind works. 167 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.840 And what I'm passionate about is that bigger picture puzzle 168 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:00.919 and how we can really shift human relation with the ocean. 169 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.120 Because the ocean is obviously like it's doing everything right. 170 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.799 It's humans that are causing all these challenges. So that's 171 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:08.399 the piece that I focus on. 172 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:12.000 So here's how I thought I would split up the episode. 173 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.840 I mean, everyone's like, how can we make the ocean 174 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.639 less fucked? Like we've really, we've really messed. 175 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:18.320 Up, that's the question. 176 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.559 So I thought we would start with let's talk about 177 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.960 the good things about the ocean. 178 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.200 Sure, there's lots, and so. 179 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:29.360 I'm going to essentially play like good cop, bad cop. 180 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:31.240 I'm going to ask you all the good questions, and 181 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.720 I'm going to let the patrons ask all the what 182 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:34.360 are we going to do? 183 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:36.159 Plastic? 184 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:37.759 Oh my god, we're all gonna die. So I'm going 185 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:39.679 to ask I'm going to ask you the happy questions 186 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.279 about the ocean before we get to oh my god, 187 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:43.960 what are we going to do? I would love to 188 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.799 know did you ever have well it sounds like when 189 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.799 you were looking in that glass bott of both you 190 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.080 had kind of an epiphany that there's this whole world 191 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.080 under the sea that you never realized. Have you had 192 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.720 any other kind of epiphanies about the ocean or any 193 00:10:57.759 --> 00:10:58.879 other moments that you had. 194 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.759 So when I started my PhD research, I was I 195 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.200 was thinking about fishing and how it can be really 196 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.360 wasteful you catch fish that you don't end up using. 197 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.120 And in fact, a recent research project I've been doing 198 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:14.720 for WWF, the World Wildlife Fund, I learned that half 199 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:16.720 of the seafood we catch in the US and EU 200 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.200 is wasted somewhere along with supply chain. It's just insane. 201 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.279 But there's also like the unsustainable aspects of fishing. They're 202 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:28.600 both problems. So I'm already diving, no problems, but I 203 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.879 swear I'm getting to the good stuff. So so fishing 204 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.919 can overfishing is a problem, and unsustainable fishing and then 205 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.519 what we do with what we catch is a whole 206 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.360 separate issue. But I was focused on how can we 207 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.360 redesign fishing gear to make it more sustainable, And so 208 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:47.000 I worked with fishermen and the fisheries department in Curasow 209 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:52.320 in the Caribbean to redesign their fish traps to let babystickle, 210 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.960 the babyfish and the ornamental like the nemo shaped skinny 211 00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:58.399 species out of the traps. And it turns out you 212 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.360 can let out eighty percent of the bycatch the fish 213 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:04.480 you don't mean to catch without hurting fishmen's incomes because 214 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:07.320 all the valuable fish stay inside. It's basically just inch 215 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.039 wide slot down the side of the trap that lets 216 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:12.240 all the little guys out. And you can't do it 217 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.679 with a just making it a larger mesh size, because 218 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:18.000 then you have like a big, a big hole that 219 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.639 any fish could get out, including the valuable ones. 220 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:25.200 So do google her paper entitled quote reducing bycatch in 221 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:29.200 coral reef trap fisheries escape gaps as a step towards 222 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.399 sustainability For more on this I did, and then reading 223 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.120 the abstract, I did a little yay way to go 224 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.799 squeal about it. Now there are also diagrams online, and 225 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.759 the regular fish traps that snag all of those other 226 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:45.000 little fishies can just be retrofitted with side panels that 227 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.759 have little narrow slits for little fishies to sneak out 228 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.519 and say later days, dude, I've got more growing to do, 229 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:55.519 or you don't even eat my species it's essentially the 230 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.960 equivalent of an Irish goodbye for coral reef fish. 231 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:01.240 So that was really exciting to me because it was 232 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:03.759 a moment where I saw that you don't actually need 233 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.120 super high technology in all these cases. You just need 234 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.480 to think practically about solutions, and if you work with 235 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.639 the fishing community and with the government, these things can 236 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.039 actually become law. And so en curis how that type 237 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:19.919 of trap design is now required and in a few 238 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:24.440 other places as well, in Barbuda, and I think they're 239 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.799 using it in Kenya. So that was super exciting to 240 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:31.039 me because you can this idea of low tech solutions 241 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.279 I think is underappreciated, right, So that was a really 242 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.440 eye opening moment and which led to the next one, 243 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:41.080 which was it's not actually about fish. 244 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:42.960 Wait, it's not about the fish. 245 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.639 Did I hear that right? It's not actually about fish. 246 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.120 This reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from 247 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.399 one of my favorite movies, Adaptation, which bears the iconic 248 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.519 line from a former aquarium enthusiast. 249 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.480 I once fell deeply, you know, profoundly in love with 250 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.960 tropical fish. He grows bored in one day, I. 251 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:06.320 Say a fuck fish, I renounce fish. I vowed never 252 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:09.399 to set foot in that ocean again. That's how much 253 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.440 fuck fish now. Two things, That clip from adaptation is 254 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:16.279 so beloved that someone has built a website at fuck 255 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.399 dot fish. That's only that clip from the movie. You 256 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.440 just press play and enjoy. Secondly, that wasn't Ayana's deal 257 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.320 at all. When she says it's not actually about fish, 258 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:30.720 she means that she loves fish so much. She had 259 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.360 to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. 260 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.960 I had done all this work, like counting fish and 261 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.919 surveying fish populations on coral reefs, and then I was like, actually, 262 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.120 it's about fishermen, it's about coastal communities. It is about 263 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.120 the tourism sector and how people are impact in the ocean. 264 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:49.559 So that's when my research shifted to doing hundreds of 265 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:53.039 these socioeconomic interviews with people across the Caribbean. From this 266 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.360 mindset that I had to understand people how people were 267 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.360 using the ocean, what problems they saw, what solutions they 268 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.639 would support, Ask them if they could write the laws 269 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:04.879 to manage the ocean, what would they be, And then 270 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.759 see what I could learn from all these experts who 271 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.639 spent more hours than I ever have in and on 272 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:12.200 the ocean. 273 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:14.960 So in order to save species in the ocean, we 274 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.799 have to look at the humans on land and like 275 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:19.159 what they're even doing? 276 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.080 Yeah, human behavior and like what makes us tick and 277 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:24.440 our incentives and motivations and culture. 278 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:26.840 That makes so much sense because the fish are like, 279 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.039 don't look at me, dude, Like I'm not the one 280 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:30.720 rooting exactly. 281 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.639 Like I'm just simming around. I like find a snack, 282 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:35.279 make some babies, like not get munched by a shark 283 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:35.799 or whatever. 284 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.159 But you're like, hey, humans, let's look. Yeah, let's put 285 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:39.799 the microscope on you guys for a minute. 286 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:41.240 Time out, let's think through this. 287 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.639 So, oceans, it's not you, it's us. It really really, 288 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.679 really really really is us. But anyway, okay, sorry, this 289 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.360 portion is the positive portion of the episode. Let's try 290 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.159 to stick to the light fun stuff before the conversation 291 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.480 gets a little bleak. Can you give some like an 292 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.000 anatomy lesson of the ocean some zones? What's an ocean 293 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.519 versus what's a sea? Like just basic dumb questions. 294 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.399 So the way that we talk about the ocean has 295 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.240 changed a lot in the past decade, and now we 296 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.840 say the ocean it's really one ocean. It's all connected, 297 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.200 and there's these different sort of parts that we name 298 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:25.000 seas and to have different ocean titles, but there's currents 299 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.240 that run through and connect everything. So I guess the 300 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.120 easy answer is it's just the ocean. Oh yeah, So 301 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.639 there's the Caribbean Sea in the Mediterranean Sea, and there's 302 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.240 the Atlantic Pacific in India and all these oceans. But 303 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.200 really it's all one big thing. And then as the 304 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.080 zones that are more important when I think about the ocean, 305 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.200 I think about sort of the depths of the ocean. 306 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.559 The shallower waters where there's more sunlight, have a very 307 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.200 different thing going on than super deep parts of the ocean. 308 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.600 And so it's a lot of it is about temperature 309 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.080 and sunlight that creates these different zones. 310 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:02.519 Okay, quick, quick rundown of ocean zones. We covered this 311 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:05.279 in the Ichnology fish episode, but who doesn't love a 312 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:06.960 refresher course, So let's break it down. 313 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:07.279 Now. 314 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.039 Epipologic is at the top. This zone from the surface 315 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.880 to about two hundred meters or six hundred feet down 316 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.920 gets some sunshine, so plants grow. The bulk of ocean 317 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:24.279 life hangs out there below that are the mesopolagic, bathy polagic, abyssopolagic, 318 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.680 and finally the very bottom the hatl zones. Now, the 319 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.519 average depth of the ocean is about thirty seven hundred 320 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:35.119 meters and its deepest known point is almost seven miles 321 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:39.799 below the surface in a trench near Guam. I'm just 322 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.079 thirsty for stats. Here's another good one. 323 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.039 That ninety seven percent of the water on Earth is 324 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.440 in the ocean. So when we think about fresh water 325 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:50.160 and drinking water, that's a good like reality check on 326 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.960 how important it is to be careful with our water. 327 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.240 I'm sure that like children ask you this, but the ocean, 328 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.960 why is that salty? I'm just gonna ask. 329 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:03.720 I'm gonna ask. The ocean was formed by all this 330 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.759 stuff that comes off of land, right, so all the 331 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:09.960 rocks that are sort of eroding over time into the 332 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.319 sea have different things in them that make the ocean salty. 333 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.359 And I think over time things change, right as evaporation 334 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.720 happens and things like that, So salinity can fluctuate a bit. 335 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.880 And that's actually part of what creates these large ocean currents, 336 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.559 is how salinity has an effect on things. Because if 337 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.680 you've ever had the chance to go in the ocean 338 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:38.240 after it rains, you'll realize that it's in the Caribbean anyway. 339 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:40.720 So this just happened to me. I jumped in the 340 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.480 Caribbean sea after a rainstorm, and there's a layer of 341 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.799 fresh water on top that's cold, like cool rain, and 342 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.519 then the ocean underneath it is salty and warm. Because 343 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.920 salt water is heavier, it's more dense, and so it sinks, 344 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.559 and colder water is also more dense than it sinks, 345 00:18:57.559 --> 00:18:59.799 and so that sets up can set up either like 346 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.440 layers or currents that are are moved just by like 347 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.400 these gradients in salinity and temperature. 348 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.680 So imagine dense cold water and dense saltwater doing a 349 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.079 very fluid kind of sensual tango. Now I'm still trying 350 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.160 to keep this half of the episode light and sunny. 351 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.960 So okay, let's see questions about the oceans that are 352 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.359 not depressing. Okay, all right? Was she always into like 353 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.279 messages in a bottle like the world's oldest one was 354 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:34.759 found earlier this year in Western Australia bearing a note 355 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.200 from a German naval vessel from eighteen eighty six. Maybe 356 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:38.720 that's fun. 357 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.880 I was super into picking up like shells and pieces 358 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.599 of sea glass and things like that. I was always 359 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.079 enamored by the things that you would find on the beach, 360 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.400 but not messages per se. 361 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:54.079 Right, do you still have any of your seashells? 362 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.079 And oh, totally you do. Yeah. I started a shell 363 00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:00.519 collection when I was five in Key West, Florida, and 364 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.680 I usually find one shell from every beach I go to. 365 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:07.920 I mean, you can't. I don't want to like take 366 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.519 all the pretty things, but and sometimes I take just 367 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.839 like a little tiny fleck of something to just put 368 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:16.799 in my I have a fish bowl full of one 369 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.880 tiny thing from each to beach I've ever been to. 370 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:21.519 Really, do you have a name for that fishbowl? 371 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:22.480 Or is this a fishball? 372 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:22.920 Now? 373 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.680 Have you been to all of the what would have 374 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:27.920 been considered oceans? 375 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.160 And I've spent a lot of time in the Caribbean, 376 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.319 a little bit of time in the Mediterranean, the Atlantic, 377 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.960 but very little time in the Pacific. Is the whole 378 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:39.200 world of Pacific islands I haven't been to yet? Now? 379 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.960 Is it true that the Pacific Island that the Pacific 380 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.359 Ocean was named because they thought it was calmer? 381 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.440 I think that's right. Is that not to be the case? 382 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:52.839 A little backstory. So Portuguese explore Magellan had hit some 383 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.640 shitty conditions through what's now known as the Straits of 384 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.359 Magellan near the southern tip of Chili Is in the 385 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.720 fifteen hundreds, and rounding the corner into the Pacific basin. 386 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.160 He was like, oh, so much better. It's so calm here, 387 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.519 it's so Pacific, hence the name. But not all of 388 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.000 it is calm, however, but in the equatorial region of 389 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.640 the sea, that part tends to have kind of a 390 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.720 more chill vibe, less wind activity, and it's technically called 391 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.079 the doldrums. That is the maritime term for it. So 392 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.400 the next time you're having kind of like a ho 393 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.519 hum period of your life, I guess just take comfort 394 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.319 that life isn't tossing you around and making you barf 395 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.880 into its violent currents. See this is the optimistic part 396 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:41.599 of the episode. Do you listen to any ocean apps 397 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:42.799 on your phone to chill out? 398 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:48.240 Like ocean sound? But yeah, no, I put earplugs in 399 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.960 and just like Zone all the way out. 400 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.759 I wasn't sure if someone who studies the ocean and 401 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.799